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View Full Version : MISC. Remove XP for Feeding.



Cristari
5th Feb 2015, 20:11
I don't know how many times I have seen full heath Vampires feeding for 10xp when a team mate is in desperate need of health. Please can you remove this stupid system and discourage this poor team play.

Nordikc
5th Feb 2015, 20:19
It does discourage team play. Teamplay should be encouraged.

Ygdrasel
5th Feb 2015, 20:26
I like to grab an extra snack once in a while but I have the courtesy of waiting to see if anyone actually needs it first. And if they're too far away to reach it in time (and dragging it to them is unfeasible), I certainly won't let it go to waste.

But some people will grab that snack right out of the grip of someone who actually needs it. These people are jerks, or just didn't notice someone needed it more. I'm guessing your focus is on the jerk variety so...Yes, let's discourage those few by punishing literally everybody. :rolleyes:

Full-health vamps deliberately stealing a meal from a more needy teammate is lousy but it's just something that's going to happen, sorry. It's the nature of having your teammates selected from the whole wide world of players, sometimes you're gonna get one who doesn't play nice with others. Teach him better or just start taking his meals instead. I don't think there's any game mechanic that would discourage it without either being nonsensical or punishing everyone else as well, like outright removing it.

Lore-wise, it's appropriate for greedy opportunistic predators to steal meals so I don't freak out about it. It's a minor thing, whatever. Besides, for every guy who deliberately and knowingly leaves an injured teammate hanging, there's another guy who puts himself in potential harm to drag a corpse to an injured teammate. There are also those who, even if injured themselves, will pass up a meal to let a more injured ally feed.

The good teammates outweigh the bad by far. Even the guys who accidentally snatch a meal that I needed usually apologize.

Cristari
5th Feb 2015, 20:50
....RUBBISH....

Firstly it is not a natural thing to discourage team play in a team oriented game.
Secondly it only happens because people see a few extra points (lets face it 10xp is not a heck of a lot in comparison to the end of round XP that you get).
Thirdly You can not be seriously equating this to Lore so, please just stop!
Fourthly to encourage team play the benefits of feeding when low health need to outweigh the that of feeding when at full health. Giving someone reason to steel your health is not enough to make them think.

What they are doing here would be similar to only allowing 1 human to use a health station at a time.

This system needs to go and hopefully discourage shockingly bad team play.

Ygdrasel
5th Feb 2015, 21:13
"LALA RUBBISH, LALALA!"

Great argument. I'm convinced.
http://rs265.pbsrc.com/albums/ii205/lassie_faire/GIF%20central/Applause/applause.gif~c200

Feeding to heal already outweighs the benefits of feeding at full health. Like you said, 10 XP isn't a lot. The XP from winning - which would be more likely by keeping the team healed up proper - outweighs it. The benefits are already balanced.

Some people just aren't team players. Shall we also remove the Reaver's evasion ability because some people choose to chuck a poison bomb then flee for their own lives rather than help the team follow up?

Successfully delving into an active warzone and coming away alive with a corpse in hand deserves some points.

Cristari
5th Feb 2015, 22:02
"LALA RUBBISH, LALALA!"

I'm not here to start a flame war on this matter the measly 10xp that you are arguing over is enough incentive for the less educated to go for when the team will actually need it.


Like you said, 10 XP isn't a lot. The XP from winning - which would be more likely by keeping the team healed up proper - outweighs it.

You are arguing against yourself dude. You are telling me that the 10xp means nothing however you say that the you deserve a extra 10xp just because you feel like your a boss?

Nordikc
5th Feb 2015, 22:08
Remove the xp and make 105xp for kills. No more problems.

Ygdrasel
6th Feb 2015, 00:34
the less educated

You are telling me that the 10xp means nothing

your a boss


Education has zero relevance to anything here. If you're judging how educated people are by whether or not they steal executions, you have serious personal issues that nobody here can help.

Literally nowhere did I say it means nothing.

If you can't even use the right word forms, there's no point in any of this.

Nordikc
6th Feb 2015, 00:59
You have to admit that the 10xp is positive reinforcement of negative team play. Whether or not most people don't do that behavior is a different matter. It reinforces a negative behavior.

ApollosBow
6th Feb 2015, 02:19
Make it so if one of your team is even slightly injured, no xp is rewarded for the execution, unless injured.

Ghosthree3
6th Feb 2015, 02:34
Make it so if one of your team is even slightly injured, no xp is rewarded for the execution, unless injured.
People would just get confused then. If you want to go down that road just stop anyone on full hp being able to feast if someone else is not full.

netmota
6th Feb 2015, 03:37
Full hp vampires should not be able to feed... In the most cases they feed just becuse like to feed and are people relatively new to the game that dont even think if other member needs to feed... Disabling the feed for full hp was the better solution only whith the option to carry the body. Other quesytion is that vampires in low hp can run out from the batlefield and save they lifes in a hiden place... The same think are not possible for humans... Humans cant run out like vampires to hide and save theirs lives... So the use of suply stations are well balanced because vampires have too a regeneration time. Or you want somethink like unlock the suply station for each one killed vampire? 3 vamps killeds 3 permissions to suply station.. Would be interesting... To ruin the game

--Ram--
6th Feb 2015, 06:18
Firstly it is not a natural thing to discourage team play in a team oriented game.
Secondly it only happens because people see a few extra points (lets face it 10xp is not a heck of a lot in comparison to the end of round XP that you get).
Thirdly You can not be seriously equating this to Lore so, please just stop!
Fourthly to encourage team play the benefits of feeding when low health need to outweigh the that of feeding when at full health. Giving someone reason to steel your health is not enough to make them think.

What they are doing here would be similar to only allowing 1 human to use a health station at a time.

This system needs to go and hopefully discourage shockingly bad team play.

Anyone with an iota of common sense can see that it is more in their benefit to let their team get hp and win the next fight, than it is to get 10xp up front and then fail. There is no need to hold these peoples hands. They will either learn after the first or second time they are scolded for it, or they are just the type of person who gets off on trolling and causing people like you to rage.

Ygdrasel
6th Feb 2015, 07:02
You have to admit that the 10xp is positive reinforcement of negative team play. Whether or not most people don't do that behavior is a different matter. It reinforces a negative behavior.

Yes, and the match defeat because they let their injured get torn apart is an arguably greater negative reinforcement of the same. Either they'll learn or they won't. Instead of resorting to changing the game, why not try teaching them better?

What we're talking about here is either ignorant or selfish players. The ignorant only need guidance. As for the selfish...If you take this out, they'll just find new ways to be selfish. To reiterate an earlier question, shall we also remove the Reaver's evasion ability because some people choose to mindlessly pop Evasion after a poison bomb, saving their own skins rather than helping the team follow up with attacks? Shall we do away with Sentinel's wings because some players constantly circle the skies instead of landing to join in skirmishes?

You can't erase lousy teammates by changing the game. They'll just continue to be lousy teammates in other areas of the game.

@ApollosBow: A human falls nearby. An injured teammate roams yards away. They won't get there before the feeding window closes. Why shouldn't somebody get a little extra XP rather than waste the fresh corpse?


As a general rule, I feel like altering game mechanics around the worst examples of players is a fundamentally miserable design plan.

--Ram--
6th Feb 2015, 07:23
@ApollosBow: A human falls nearby. An injured teammate roams yards away. They won't get there before the feeding window closes. Why shouldn't somebody get a little extra XP rather than waste the fresh corpse?


Agree with you on the thread topic, but on this point why don't you just refresh the corpse duration or bring it to your injured teammate? There is no need to eat it.

Ygdrasel
6th Feb 2015, 07:34
Agree with you on the thread topic, but on this point why don't you just refresh the corpse duration or bring it to your injured teammate? There is no need to eat it.

Refresh the duration...Then what, give them chat directions to the body while you stand around beside it? Kind of kills the flow of gameplay, like Sentinels on recon chat-guiding their team to the humans (oh, Echolocation, when will you become useful...).

They're not always close enough to drag it over in time. If they are, I drag it to them and as far as I've seen, other teammates do the same. But if they're not close enough, what's the harm in somebody scoring a little extra XP? I don't get upset if someone chows on a corpse while I'm injured halfway across the map on a rooftop because hey, I'm halfway across the map on a rooftop. Sometimes humans between us too, that's no good. Now if they go taking a meal I need while I'm standing right there, yeah, they're jerks and I reprimand them...But I don't go suggesting removal of the whole system.

--Ram--
6th Feb 2015, 08:16
Refresh the duration...Then what, give them chat directions to the body while you stand around beside it? Kind of kills the flow of gameplay, like Sentinels on recon chat-guiding their team to the humans (oh, Echolocation, when will you become useful...).

They're not always close enough to drag it over in time. If they are, I drag it to them and as far as I've seen, other teammates do the same. But if they're not close enough, what's the harm in somebody scoring a little extra XP? I don't get upset if someone chows on a corpse while I'm injured halfway across the map on a rooftop because hey, I'm halfway across the map on a rooftop. Sometimes humans between us too, that's no good. Now if they go taking a meal I need while I'm standing right there, yeah, they're jerks and I reprimand them...But I don't go suggesting removal of the whole system.

Well yeah if people aren't smart enough to know they are low and that there is a potential meal then they only have themselves to blame. Personally I just refresh it and say "food" in team chat. If they still let it expire then I just give up. Fair call to eat it at that point I guess but I still don't because there's no point. I don't care about 10xp and I see it as a waste of time. I may be tempted right now only because I just bought the deceiver execution and I like to look at it.

Nordikc
6th Feb 2015, 16:03
Yes, and the match defeat because they let their injured get torn apart is an arguably greater negative reinforcement of the same. Either they'll learn or they won't. Instead of resorting to changing the game, why not try teaching them better?

What we're talking about here is either ignorant or selfish players. The ignorant only need guidance. As for the selfish...If you take this out, they'll just find new ways to be selfish. To reiterate an earlier question, shall we also remove the Reaver's evasion ability because some people choose to mindlessly pop Evasion after a poison bomb, saving their own skins rather than helping the team follow up with attacks? Shall we do away with Sentinel's wings because some players constantly circle the skies instead of landing to join in skirmishes?

You can't erase lousy teammates by changing the game. They'll just continue to be lousy teammates in other areas of the game.

@ApollosBow: A human falls nearby. An injured teammate roams yards away. They won't get there before the feeding window closes. Why shouldn't somebody get a little extra XP rather than waste the fresh corpse?


As a general rule, I feel like altering game mechanics around the worst examples of players is a fundamentally miserable design plan.

It is bad design. The fact you have to teach new players is indicative of its bad design. You give examples of other potentially selfish behaviors that don't really apply here. That is a straw man argument. There are limits to what can be taught, such as when to engage in battle as many of your examples show. But feeding is with in those limits.

I generally agree that the game should be designed around higher skilled people but this is not the case. If changed this game mechanic will not affect the best example of players at all. That leaves the question: How does this mechanic effect the lower quality players?

Psyonix_Corey
6th Feb 2015, 17:01
To get this topic back on track..

We agree it should not provide XP. It's still there at the moment because it serves a useful notification function to vampires that the feed has succeeded without having to watch the health orb. We would like to keep that without the XP component, but other work ip has taken higher priority.

Da_Wolv
6th Feb 2015, 17:10
To get this topic back on track..

We agree it should not provide XP. It's still there at the moment because it serves a useful notification function to vampires that the feed has succeeded without having to watch the health orb. We would like to keep that without the XP component, but other work ip has taken higher priority.

Maybe reward XP for the entire team, but make it dependent on the current health of the feeding vampire:
if the feed cannot fully heal the vampire, award 100% of the XP (10), and for every amount of HP that is 'wasted' (when the vampire is closer to max HP when feeding), reduce the amount of XP the team gets.
This both fixes the issue with incentive, while keeping the little extra XP intact that humans can potentially get through capping canons in Flashpoint.

Mayhzon
6th Feb 2015, 17:13
Refresh the duration...Then what, give them chat directions to the body while you stand around beside it? Kind of kills the flow of gameplay, like Sentinels on recon chat-guiding their team to the humans (oh, Echolocation, when will you become useful...).

They're not always close enough to drag it over in time. If they are, I drag it to them and as far as I've seen, other teammates do the same. But if they're not close enough, what's the harm in somebody scoring a little extra XP? I don't get upset if someone chows on a corpse while I'm injured halfway across the map on a rooftop because hey, I'm halfway across the map on a rooftop. Sometimes humans between us too, that's no good. Now if they go taking a meal I need while I'm standing right there, yeah, they're jerks and I reprimand them...But I don't go suggesting removal of the whole system.
I somewhat agree and disagree.

For one I noticed that typing in chat that there is food and usually doing so by also mentioning the playername makes a ton of difference. Let's say we get injured player Tommyb0i and I say "corpse here" in teamchat, most Tommyb0ys usually don't react. I noticed that writing "Tommyb0y food here" however makes a difference (usually they come for the corpse then, feed and then even thank me). I think that the general message in team chat without name dropping is simply ignored as they think that it somehow doesn't apply to them (as if you were talking to someone else, maybe they think you do).

On the other hand, I agree that the XP should be left in the game.

Situation: Everyone has full health. There's a bunch of corpses lying around. There is no point leaving them to rot, but without XP reward it's what most people would do.




To get this topic back on track..

We agree it should not provide XP. It's still there at the moment because it serves a useful notification function to vampires that the feed has succeeded without having to watch the health orb. We would like to keep that without the XP component, but other work ip has taken higher priority.
Please don't remove that little XP bonus - Or maybe think of another bonus, like overheal or maybe a small defense / attack boost that lasts for a while or something. Otherwise there will be many situations in which feeding will be absolutely pointless, just like in my example above. It would also mean that there is less incentive to buy the alternative executions because if you don't use them often, players won't see a reason to buy them.

Ygdrasel
6th Feb 2015, 18:04
It is bad design. The fact you have to teach new players is indicative of its bad design.

...Every game, ever, is full of things that need to be taught to new players. That's how...Games work.

@Mayhzon: There would definitely be less incentive to buy new executions. And I've seen that situation quite a bit: Vamps tear through the human camp, no major health losses but human corpses litter the ground. I like to see those mass feedings. It'd be a shame if they faded from lack of incentive.

Rather than outright removal, the XP could just be divided. Everyone gets 5, the guy who initiates gets 10. Or everyone gets 10 flat-out. Then there'd be no heal-stealing (because the XP comes regardless) and no waste.

Cristari
6th Feb 2015, 21:30
To get this topic back on track..

We agree it should not provide XP. It's still there at the moment because it serves a useful notification function to vampires that the feed has succeeded without having to watch the health orb. We would like to keep that without the XP component, but other work ip has taken higher priority.

Thanks for the reply Corey. Good to know it will eventually go. Discouraging bad team play is always a good thing I only hope people don't get stuck with bad habits and continue to keep doing this when it is removed.

Nordikc
7th Feb 2015, 00:25
...Every game, ever, is full of things that need to be taught to new players. That's how...Games work.

I have already said new players will have to be taught somethings. Just because they have to be taught doesn't mean that game mechanics can't be better though. It is a bad mechanics making it just that much harder for new players to learn the game.

Good game design makes things intuitive and easy to learn while having a high skill ceiling. Obviously it is not possible to have everything easy to learn and have a skill ceiling, but rewarding XP for feeding is not one of these cases. It is an easy thing to change that will have to effect on higher level play.

It doesn't matter to debate anymore really though. Corey already said it is being changed for that very reason.

Hemophage
7th Feb 2015, 10:25
When are all these horribly selfish players doing this? ive only seen this happen a handful of times maybe that i can kind of recall. I can Definitely recall my team dragging corpses to me, letting me know there is food to help.

P.S I have rarely been part of a community like this where i am almost overwhelmingly in games with fun, helpful considerate players.