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ApollosBow
2nd Feb 2015, 23:54
nevermind about the hair, it looks fine to me :P

Razaiim
3rd Feb 2015, 00:07
Tyrant hair on the turelim plate skin is hilariously glitchy, I'm expecting the same from that skin.

PencileyePirate
3rd Feb 2015, 01:21
I love when Tyrant hair gets caught on a wall and stretches half-way across the map, doesn't everyone?

Razaiim
3rd Feb 2015, 01:25
Naaaah, crack hair is more funny than spaghetti hair. "I'm here here no here here I am hereherehereI'moverherecan'tcatchme2fast hnnnnng)

Ghosthree3
3rd Feb 2015, 16:08
In my opinion, it's broken the game.

I was having a lot of fun for the last week with this game since I found it, after just one game with the summoner in it I seem to have lost all drive to play.

Now admittedly in the game I played humans in I was against four summoners, so if there is only one it might not be so bad. But I have to ask why you wouldn't just play four as it doesn't seem to have a draw back.

My experience was as follows:
At no point in the game could you stay in the same spot for more than 5 seconds, a bomb would be set to explode and force you to move to another position. This meant everyone was constantly moving everywhere and anywhere and we were forced out of good positions to positions that are very easy to die in.

A lot of ammo had to be used to get rid of all the minions, so much so that the summoners could come in and kill you for free because you had low/no ammo. They also block abilities so you can get advanced on very easily.

The shield is beyond a broken mechanic.
Two things that annoyed me:
Ranged lost any advantage of being ranged because the summoners could use it to advance on you without taking ANY damage because that shield blocks EVERYTHING including all my grenades as alchemist. This completely kills the game balance and the humans might as well just be given swords.
At any point a summoner did get low they could quickly throw up a shield and back away with little to no risk of death because chasing is suicide with all the minions and other vampires on you.
The first move, the advance with the shield up, is particularly stupid because other vampires can use it for cover as well without blowing their own cool downs.

Now in a game with only one summoner none of this would probably be that bad, annoying at most. But I cannot see any reason why you would only take just one. Perhaps not four, I'm sure there's some draw back there, but why not have two at least?


The summoner has simply thrown the theme of the game - ranged vs melee - out the window. I can't say I'm satisfied in any way with this change in the game's direction.


Should I play some more I'm sure I could find some ways to make all of this less painful, but I'm not sure I want to. I'm sure I could also find out new and even more annoying combinations the summoners can provide for their team to abuse the human one.

Vampmaster
3rd Feb 2015, 16:14
It might just take more than 10 mins to adapt to. One match, seriously?

Ghosthree3
3rd Feb 2015, 16:27
I'm a very tolerant player, I've put in the hours in many games to get good and understand that it takes time to adapt to new things.

That said I also understand how a mechanic can be anti-fun and detrimental to a game. It is more than likely that the summoner isn't OP, or is not OP by very much, but it IS anti fun. Dreadfully so.

EDIT: Except the shield, that IS OP. As someone has suggested to me, a damage absorb value on the shield would go a long way.

Zulgot
3rd Feb 2015, 16:37
Wow today is release day and you are suprised, that everyone want to try new class?? Woow that's so much unexpected.... Man I played 4 games right now and the only summoner that was there was me... Maybe you just got bad luck - you will see, in 2 days everything will be as it was. And also don't forget, that there will be new human class, that will balance the game for humans...

--Ram--
3rd Feb 2015, 17:04
Wow today is release day and you are suprised, that everyone want to try new class?? Woow that's so much unexpected.... Man I played 4 games right now and the only summoner that was there was me... Maybe you just got bad luck - you will see, in 2 days everything will be as it was. And also don't forget, that there will be new human class, that will balance the game for humans...

I think you missed his point.

Rago600
3rd Feb 2015, 17:13
Are there any out ? or even in the game now ?

Rago600
3rd Feb 2015, 17:16
With the Summoner The whole Gameplay changed, i think i really like it !

All classes got nerfed over Time,
lets Play this First and then think about the balance of it.

The Shieldbearer also come´s..

Word !

PencileyePirate
3rd Feb 2015, 17:36
While standing at the edge of slave pens in the Fane I targeted a human in the lower mid area with the Slayer. Instead of dropping down a 5-ft ledge and making a bee-line for the human he ran all the way to the priestess statue instead. I'm pretty sure his time expired before ever making it to the human.

Another time in Provance he just dropped off a roof and stood facing a wall until he expired.

GenFeelGood
3rd Feb 2015, 17:42
Same in Valeholm at the mansion, humans stood on the wall while myself and another cast slayers from the platform across from them. At first I thought they didn't spawn but then I saw them standing still at the healing station directly below.

Rago600
3rd Feb 2015, 17:56
I use them for close combat, anyway we are here testing a Beta, this is new Content, there is something to do :) Like always.
Additional to OP

They can also get Stuck on corners left way on the Habour map(up that small hill) on the Wooden fence.

PencileyePirate
3rd Feb 2015, 18:00
I use them for close combat, anyway we are here testing a Beta, this is new Content, there is something to do :) Like always.

Of course, and the skill is quite + useful up close. But since it can be activated from longer ranges I thought this should be noted so that it can eventually get fixed.

GenFeelGood
3rd Feb 2015, 18:01
Save your ammo and rely on your abilities to deal with the ghouls, drain curse has been especially effective at destroying them in my experience and their health replenishes your own in the process.

Ghosthree3
3rd Feb 2015, 18:12
I did try using abilities, it is effective, unfortunately the ghouls are the least of the problem imo.

Not to say they aren't a problem, if they're up while you're getting jumped they block everything including bolas and the likes. I also shouldn't be forced to use aoe abilities to not be destroyed.

Hyperspeed1000
3rd Feb 2015, 18:46
I agree in my opinion the game lost its last 'competative' bit cuz of the summoner. Now ppl just spam their abyssal bolts and hellstrikes with the summons for the win while human desperatly try to counter it with atleast 2 alchs...this creates so much chaos that the win in itself has nothing to do with tactics or skill....anyway if it get better with the time i will come back to Nosgoth but for now i am done with this game....i like to think of myself as a competative player not a damm spammer .

ApollosBow
3rd Feb 2015, 19:07
She feels perfect, Im able to dispatch her very fast with my close range scout build and alchemist flamethrower is a death sentence to her advancing with ghouls.....on the other hand she feel quiet powerful when playing as her...

Her Slayer needs a GPS though, keeps on going the long way around stuff instead of dropping down little cliffs, especially on Fane.


Shes a new class on top of the fact that shes meant to mix thing up a bit...just like the shield bearer will, try different class builds to counter her, poison cloud or flamethrower are great for her ghouls, and if you using a long range class build and shes attacking you up close then your close range teammates aren't doing their job or got unlucky, people will adapt...besides you don't want the only female vampire being too weak :/

Just had a game that made me think of this thread, summoner isnt the only one who can attack from range...Air strike, I mean cmon both sides are bound to have some ranged attacks and some close range attacks, hunters bolas haven't broken the game, neither have scouts throwing knifes, both are useless at range but deadly up close .

Ghosthree3
3rd Feb 2015, 19:14
Shes a new class on top of the fact that shes meant to mix thing up a bit
That isn't always a good thing.


besides you don't want the only female vampire being too weak :/
Her gender is beyond unimportant. You don't take into account superficial irrelevant stuff when balancing. Don't be that guy.

Knast_core
3rd Feb 2015, 19:15
I don´t see a reason why not. There are a few more Ability in development, but the rest works fine.I gues yes but just seen an uncanny drop yet.

FireWorks_
3rd Feb 2015, 19:26
Her gender is beyond unimportant. You don't take into account superficial irrelevant stuff when balancing. Don't be that guy.

That is your point of view. A lot of other people do care about female roles and characters.

Ghosthree3
3rd Feb 2015, 19:33
That is your point of view. A lot of other people do care about female roles and characters.
You're right, we should make her flaming OP because she's female, you know, because otherwise it's sexist or something. I say buff everything.

netmota
3rd Feb 2015, 19:37
so... i play a few matches whih summonner and i think it is a good target to alchemists... air-strike and abduct are too a spam habilitties that takes insane damage whihout the catlike reflexes perk that reduces the fall damage... so perhaphs humans needs a perk to reduce magical damage or somethink like that... puncture as well takes 400 damage... and backstab from behind takes 550... i remember wen deceiver was released and it was break instantly the "balance"... today anyone are familiarized whith him like we will go on summonner. prophet is another class that in the beginning was an offensive class... today is almost a support class, perhaps this is why the vampires are always ahead of humans in general-

Razaiim
3rd Feb 2015, 19:50
She's fun to play, and her skills look impressive.

Abyssal bolt is far too weak compared to hellstrike, lacking the range, and doing the same damage at best, and is much easier to avoid, while being harder to aim.
Hellstrike seems to be in a decent spot
Ghouls seem like wierder Illusions, seem to miss alot, and are fairly slow.
She also has some hit detection issues on par with the deceiver at present.

Otherwise an exciting and interesting class to play with/against

Khalith
3rd Feb 2015, 20:09
I am inclined to agree that hellstrike is easier to aim with the same damage not to mention it has a better range, it could stand to have it's high end damage reduced but damage fall off decreased in a similar vein to air strike.

Little summons appear to have pathing and despawning issues but are pretty squishy.

The big summon spell appears to be broken, I cast it several times, it went on CD and nothing happened. Her jumping off buildings animation as well is really floaty and looks stiff.

Her shield is pretty well balanced with her slower movement and turning speed.

Overall she's a good class, needs her bugs fixed definitely before I can determine if the secondary summon spell is any good or needs some adjustments. In regards to other classes, alchemist seems to be her hard counter with the ability to tear through her low hp and adds in seconds while the summoner itself seems to be the best 1v1 class for the vamps against the other humans as her adds can soak up CC and screen damage while she melees. As alchemist when she pops her shield I can drop a firewall on her and she's forced to either soak it up or drop her shield and get a cannon to the face. I do not think she Summoner is OP as prophet 1.0 is, rather I think she's more like the Deceiver in the sense that it will take time for people to adapt to her and play accordingly and when they do realize the class really isn't that bad to fight against when you know what to watch out for.



<snip>

I disagree with you OP, she's really not that bad. If the other team is playing Summoner as only hanging back calling adds and ranged attacking then switch to alchemist with a healing mist and a nice damage cannon like the fullbore and your team should die either unless you stand in AOE intentionally. She's really good at 1v1, might even be the best 1v1 vamp class, but besides that alchemist ruins her day.

TheDreamcrusher
3rd Feb 2015, 20:16
There seems to be an issue with Abyssal Bolt and Hellstrike hitting certain surfaces. Each one is different. If Abyssal Bolt sticks to a ledge beneath a human, like on a wall they're standing on, it will do no damage despite the appearance of a sphere depicting the area where it will do damage. Hellstrike just misses, depending if there's clutter on the ground like stones or the like. I experienced this a few times in a row at Sommerdamm by the gate near the statue.

The big summon, the ghoul, seems to not work if you're too far from the ground when you try to activate it targeting a human. Several times it went on cooldown with no effect.

I have to say though the summons are very welcome. I was beginning to think scouts were going to dominate this game with whole teams of them popping vampires as soon as they appeared. Summons provide a valuable meat shield that soak up some of those hits.

TheDreamcrusher
3rd Feb 2015, 20:20
Also, I'd like to make a suggestion for an ability in the secondary slot. Since the Summoner plays very much like a support/ranged class, how about an ability that can absorb or destroy area effects like Arrow Volley or Wall of Fire?

Khalith
3rd Feb 2015, 20:20
I have to say though the summons are very welcome. I was beginning to think scouts were going to dominate this game with whole teams of them popping vampires as soon as they appeared. Summons provide a valuable meat shield that soak up some of those hits.

It appears to me as well the summoner is meant to counter scout.

TheDreamcrusher
3rd Feb 2015, 20:25
It appears to me as well the summoner is meant to counter scout.

I don't know how it went for you, but all the games I played that had 2 or more summoners were crazy fast and hectic. The Hellstrikes and summons were continuously coming.

mashkeysgetusername
3rd Feb 2015, 20:28
Yeah, the pathfinding on the summons is a little wonky. I've taken to summoning them while stood at the edge of a building so they immediately drop off but that leaves you a little vulnerable. Maybe that's a good tradeoff though, I don't know.

Mayhzon
3rd Feb 2015, 20:39
No, not even a damage nerf to her Hell Strike. I think she is absolutely perfect.


Her Abyssal Bold / Hell Strike are fine and in line other similiar abilities of other classes.

Her summons are a little too weak, but that's fine. They serve well as distraction, they're not supposed to bring in the big damage. I think you guys really nailed her first try, no adjustments needed other than bugfixes.

Ghosthree3
3rd Feb 2015, 20:45
I disagree with you OP, she's really not that bad. If the other team is playing Summoner as only hanging back calling adds and ranged attacking then switch to alchemist with a healing mist and a nice damage cannon like the fullbore and your team should die either unless you stand in AOE intentionally. She's really good at 1v1, might even be the best 1v1 vamp class, but besides that alchemist ruins her day.
I will admit that healing mist is a fantastic counter. But not against four. And only against the minions, which again, are not my main concern. My main problem is that shield and her ability to force the humans to move out of position if there are multiple of her.

Khalith
3rd Feb 2015, 20:46
I don't know how it went for you, but all the games I played that had 2 or more summoners were crazy fast and hectic. The Hellstrikes and summons were continuously coming.

It was fast and hectic but very much controlled chaos. Send in adds, hellstrike, get in for some melee and do some damage, use shield to absorb or distract while other vampires charged in. Other vampires attacked and send in more adds, focus the scouts with the adds so the knives hit the adds and they can't get their charged shots. When facing a summoner, use alchemist, dodge her aoe's (very easy to do if you're paying attention) and aoe her adds down. If the summoners wouldn't try and get close, use the heal vial to minimize any chipping damage while their AOE is on cooldown. Against a summoner team I just did 20k+ damage, completely wiped out the adds so my team could focus on the other vamps and the summoners especially. With only 1k hp and limited mobility she is very vulnerable to focused fire, the shield helps yes, but with it's slow movement speed and channel it's not very useful as an escape, I had better luck with it covering my teammates.

Passarbye
3rd Feb 2015, 20:58
I feel the summoner is in a really weird spot right now.

Her melee strikes have an odd feel to them, are they meant to be shorter than the other vamps? I guess they just don't feel as fluid as the others in comparison.
Hellstrike is hard to aim, there should be an adjustment or something where it moves slowly instead of being really fast.
the Summons are a good distraction to human teams, pretty balanced as well but the AI could do with a bit of brushing up. The larger one seems to be summoned in the general area of where you point (sometimes farther away) and not where you aim at, which is wonky and doesn't feel right, though I understand that humans should have a bit of warning before there's a monster on top of them. the smaller two seem to be the better option because they can get to the opponent quicker.
Lack of an escape skill also seems to put this class at a disadvantage to the others (similar to deceiver, but they have invisibility).

VERY SQUISHY

Mayhzon
3rd Feb 2015, 21:07
In my opinion, it's broken the game.

I was having a lot of fun for the last week with this game since I found it, after just one game with the summoner in it I seem to have lost all drive to play.

Now admittedly in the game I played humans in I was against four summoners, so if there is only one it might not be so bad. But I have to ask why you wouldn't just play four as it doesn't seem to have a draw back.

You really shouldn't give up that early. Especially when new things roll out in most games, they are always a little out of whack usually. That goes for MMOs as well as multiplayer games. Now the summoner is really one of the least offending examples, she is implemented extremely well imho.




My experience was as follows:
At no point in the game could you stay in the same spot for more than 5 seconds, a bomb would be set to explode and force you to move to another position. This meant everyone was constantly moving everywhere and anywhere and we were forced out of good positions to positions that are very easy to die in.

A good change and as it should be. We needed a class to break up the camping a little. The summoner provides this. She will force the game to be a little more dynamic.





A lot of ammo had to be used to get rid of all the minions, so much so that the summoners could come in and kill you for free because you had low/no ammo. They also block abilities so you can get advanced on very easily.

Yet the minions are relatively weak. In two hits with the Alchemist they should go down. They also do very little damage and only last 8 to 10 seconds, depending on which summons the summoner uses. The trick is to realize that, like illusions, the summons are not a threat to you and you should focus your attention on the summoner, not the minions. The minions are easily gotten rid of in the middle of teamfights with a single, well-placed AOE.




The shield is beyond a broken mechanic.

It's actually one of the weakest escape and protection mechanics in the game:
->It shields you from only one angle
->It slows your movement down to walking speed

Compare to Reaver's dodge (Invincible to all direct attacks, lasts 3 seconds), Reaver's Shadow Step (Teleports you away and makes you invincible during teleport) and Tyrants' Defense ability (Take only 15% damage for 6 seconds). None of these slow down, one even does the opposite and they all make you semi-invincible to a degree that escape is easy. Summoners' Shield is definitely in line with these abilities.




Two things that annoyed me:
Ranged lost any advantage of being ranged because the summoners could use it to advance on you without taking ANY damage because that shield blocks EVERYTHING including all my grenades as alchemist. This completely kills the game balance and the humans might as well just be given swords.
At any point a summoner did get low they could quickly throw up a shield and back away with little to no risk of death because chasing is suicide with all the minions and other vampires on you.

Why did you let the summoner get into a position where she can shield herself against all of your teammates anyway? Why did you not surround her? Why was she not disabled to begin with? Any disable disallows her from using the shield.




The first move, the advance with the shield up, is particularly stupid because other vampires can use it for cover as well without blowing their own cool downs.

The shield only protects against direct hit abilities and weapons. Any kind of AOE breaches it (except for the draining curse at the moment which seems to be a bug). Also you can split up and flank the advancing vampires to stop this from happening. The shield, as stated earlier, only protects the front.




Now in a game with only one summoner none of this would probably be that bad, annoying at most. But I cannot see any reason why you would only take just one. Perhaps not four, I'm sure there's some draw back there, but why not have two at least?

Why would it be a problem if there were 4 summoners? 4 summoners is a relatively average combo to be honest and not particula strong. Any kind of AOE is a detriment to a summoner. If you have to deal with 4 summoners, use strong AOE builds.




The summoner has simply thrown the theme of the game - ranged vs melee - out the window. I can't say I'm satisfied in any way with this change in the game's direction.

It has not - Vampires already had ranged attacks before the summoner was in the game. The Sentinel can throw bombs that deal AOE damage of similiar strength in a similiar radius with similiar cooldown. The Reaver, the very first class the game came with, has a wide AOE Damage-over-Time attack, the Choking Haze. The theme is not out of the window at all, the discrepancy between the two teams did get a little smaller though.




Should I play some more I'm sure I could find some ways to make all of this less painful, but I'm not sure I want to. I'm sure I could also find out new and even more annoying combinations the summoners can provide for their team to abuse the human one.
Why would it be abuse to find strong combinations? Finding and then breaking new tactics is the strategic element of any game that is more complex than Minesweeper and Tetris. Why would you dislike that? It's what any game (that is not based on luck such as poker) has ever been about. Maybe you just weren't aware of that yet.

And why are you portraying the humans as victims even? The human team still has the stronger potential of both teams, you just didn't capitalize on it yet because your options with pubs to do so is limited.

Ysanoire
3rd Feb 2015, 21:12
I don't really have thoughts about the Summoner's balance atm, I'd need to play more with her and against here.

I know she's hella annoying though.

Between the ghouls, the missiles, the flashing purple explosions (does the abyssal ball really have to be this huge and bright?) I COULD NOT SEE S****

Considering that classes with AoEs, especially the Alchemist, are good counters to her...

Aaaaaargh, my eyes!

mashkeysgetusername
3rd Feb 2015, 21:12
I think she's okay myself, seems in a good place already. To address a few specifics from my (short) time playing her:

The shield seems okay to me, it doesn't feel mega powerful. The main reason is you move slower with it out, and you have to face toward the humans. It's actually pretty tricky to get out of sight of the humans when you can't see the corner you're trying to hide behind and you only have three seconds of slow walking, and I'd say it's less powerful as a survival tool than any other vampire ability. Which I'm fine with.
As for helping attack, the few times I tried it people just stopped shooting me then gunned me down when the shield dropped, or they just ran away out of sight if a group of us tried to attack with it. I also found that with the slower walking speed I couldn't advance very close to the humans in the three seconds the shield's up.
Also worth saying that once the shield's on cooldown she's got nothing, no stuns, no knockbacks, she's just a vulnerable vamp swinging away with no get-out-of-jail ability. If any devs are reading I'd keep it that way, she's interesting to play at the moment as a result of that decision: "should I go in when I have no way of escaping?".

I can see how four summoners spamming abyssal bolt could be annoying, but so's four reavers spamming choking haze, or four sentinels spamming airstrike. It doesn't feel gamebreaking to me because it's something vampires could already do, and human teams are already countering. And, playing her, the ability's got quite a long cooldown so one or two probably can't spam it (you may be seeing four on a team because she's new today and people are trying her out).

Ygdrasel
3rd Feb 2015, 21:15
Updated the game, played three matches. No unlocked Summoner yet.

Playing against them though, at least that big bright ball warns me of their imminent approach. They seem to make for chaotic matches.

Mayhzon
3rd Feb 2015, 21:19
Updated the game, played three matches. Have been given no option whatsoever to actually play as the Summoner yet.

Playing against them though, at least that big bright ball warns me of their imminent approach.
You have to unlock her via an unlock token like all the other classes. What is your current level? At the next 5 mark you will get a token to unlock her (5, 10, 15, 20, 25).

mashkeysgetusername
3rd Feb 2015, 21:23
I like her, she's interesting and fun to play.
- Abyssal bolt feels skilful to use (if that makes sense) but the humans are very capable of basically avoiding all its damage. A good well-positioned throw still puts the humans in trouble though. A nice ability.
- The summons occasionally have pathfinding issues if you just stand on a roof out of sight and let them go, but doing damage by standing on a roof out of sight is pretty lame, so that bug (if it is one) is having a good effect! Mostly in brawls they seem to do okay, but I haven't watched them too closely.
- Shield is tricky to use, I feel organised teams will get much more out of this than I will. The reduced movement is a good tradeoff.
- On that note I think the lack of a dedicated escape skill is a good thing, it leads to an interesting decision of whether to pile in and not be able to escape if it goes wrong or hang back and leave you team 3v4. (Well, the summons help with the 3v4 thing, but I don't think they're as dangerous as another vampire in the mix.) I'd leave her without knockbacks and stuns as well, makes her tricky and different to use.
- Finally, I think the visual effects of her abilities look great, both playing as and against her the effects look cool. (Very minor quibble: does she have to reference Melechim in every line of dialogue?)

I think she's in a really good place already. Nice work, devs.

Ghosthree3
3rd Feb 2015, 21:39
You really shouldn't give up that early. Especially when new things roll out in most games, they are always a little out of whack usually. That goes for MMOs as well as multiplayer games. Now the summoner is really one of the least offending examples, she is implemented extremely well imho.
I expect it to be changed in upcoming patches and don't plan to stop playing forever, but I just can't bring myself to play it again right now. I want to, I really do, but at the same time I don't.


Yet the minions are relatively weak. In two hits with the Alchemist they should go down. They also do very little damage and only last 8 to 10 seconds, depending on which summons the summoner uses. The trick is to realize that, like illusions, the summons are not a threat to you and you should focus your attention on the summoner, not the minions. The minions are easily gotten rid of in the middle of teamfights with a single, well-placed AOE.
I've said it about 6 times now but their damage is not what is threatening, it's their ability to block your bullets and abilities when it counts. You're helpless if you get advanced on while those are in your face.


It's actually one of the weakest escape and protection mechanics in the game:
->It shields you from only one angle
->It slows your movement down to walking speed
I would agree if it only shielded her, the fact she can also throw it up to cover her team mates' escape is what breaks it for me.


Compare to Reaver's dodge (Invincible to all direct attacks, lasts 3 seconds), Reaver's Shadow Step (Teleports you away and makes you invincible during teleport) and Tyrants' Defense ability (Take only 15% damage for 6 seconds). None of these slow down, one even does the opposite and they all make you semi-invincible to a degree that escape is easy.
None of which help your team.


Why did you let the summoner get into a position where she can shield herself against all of your teammates anyway? Why did you not surround her? Why was she not disabled to begin with? Any disable disallows her from using the shield.
At least in public play, it is not hard to get into a position as a vampire that faces all four humans. In my experience players like to stay too close and like to stay in a line. I've tried to stop it but that's just what they do.


The shield only protects against direct hit abilities and weapons. Any kind of AOE breaches it (except for the draining curse at the moment which seems to be a bug). Also you can split up and flank the advancing vampires to stop this from happening. The shield, as stated earlier, only protects the front.
It blocks all projectiles that would have to pass through the shield, which is almost everything. The hunter for example is completely useless in this scenario. Splitting up also isn't always an option, it's not like you're 1v4, there's other **** going on, you don't have time to sprint around her or you will probably die to any vampire that notices you.


Why would it be a problem if there were 4 summoners? 4 summoners is a relatively average combo to be honest and not particula strong. Any kind of AOE is a detriment to a summoner. If you have to deal with 4 summoners, use strong AOE builds.
By four summoners the minions actually are a serious issue, they're just everywhere and you can't hit anything but them. You're constantly being bombed and people slowly get picked off as they run around trying not to die.


It has not - Vampires already had ranged attacks before the summoner was in the game. The Sentinel can throw bombs that deal AOE damage of similiar strength in a similiar radius with similiar cooldown. The Reaver, the very first class the game came with, has a wide AOE Damage-over-Time attack, the Choking Haze. The theme is not out of the window at all, the discrepancy between the two teams did get a little smaller though.
The Reaver has to come into melee range to be useful though, the choking haze is nice but avoidable and if that's all he's doing he might as well not exist. The radius on the Sentinal bomb is imo much smaller, it also has to come in to properly utilise its kit, they are also EXTREMELY vulnerable while throwing the bomb and will feed kills if that's all they do. IMO the summoner can be quite effective by barely coming in at all and instead using its abilities to cover their team and cause distraction.


Why would it be abuse to find strong combinations? Finding and then breaking new tactics is the strategic element of any game that is more complex than Minesweeper and Tetris. Why would you dislike that? It's what any game (that is not based on luck such as poker) has ever been about. Maybe you just weren't aware of that yet.
There's nothing wrong with strong combos, there is a problem with infuriating combos.


And why are you portraying the humans as victims even? The human team still has the stronger potential of both teams, you just didn't capitalize on it yet because your options with pubs to do so is limited.
I am aware that in high skill situations the humans are far stronger - prepatch, and probably still are - but on the whole this post wasn't so much about the Summoner being OP as it was about it being anti fun. For your information I actually won the game with a team score of around 52-46. It was the least fun I'd ever had and I quit immediately after and haven't played since.

OK_Oktagon
3rd Feb 2015, 22:07
So the game just went from actually having fights to roof camping Summoners throwing Hellfires at you. There's no need for a Summoner to ever go into a fight, since all you need is 3 other summoners throwing Hellfires/Summons at the humans. If the humans are still high hp, the Summoners just keep camping on roofs until the cooldowns are met. Once the humans actually go for a heal to get hp/more ammo, the Summoners are there to pick them off.

This isn't the kind of game I've been playing for so long. Now it's more about humans desperately to chase down Summoners camping on roofs you can only reach via alch cannons/abilities, and if you chase one down, you'll just get shredded by the rest. Since Summoner came earlier today, I've been having 3 games where the score actually reached 30 for one team, because in most cases, the Summoners just camped roofs until the game was done, resulting in really boring games.

There are mainly 2 different things that makes the game incredibly boring for me with this update. And both of these things came with the Summoner. Hellfire is the main reason to evil in this case. An ability that you can cast from roofs, with high damage, damage directly on impact and even aim assist for where you want the ability to land. It doesn't take long for you to get used to the ability, and you'll be racking up 400's on players very easily, with them having no chance of escaping since the only indication of the ability being used is visual. And keeping track of 4 hellfires at the same time, with all the summons around you, simply doesn't work. This ability really needs to be fixed, don't make it explode on impact. It doesn't act like a grenade, it acts like a ranged projectile, which is what makes it so wrong.

The summons shouldn't be working like they're currently working. Just letting them attack freely from roofs makes no sense. The humans have to waste ammo at them, and in a lot of cases, that ammo is really wasted because the summoners will just wait for cooldowns. It would be a lot better if the summons would fight around the summoner like guard dogs instead, that would actually make the summoner have to go down and fight at times. Just dropping down things to fight for you makes no sense in Nosgoth, it just adds frustration for the human players.

It definitely feels like an entirely different game now, where you get hit from places you have a hard time reaching. And playing human round is just nowhere near the word "fun" anymore, it's just constant running and fighting off summons, only to get killed once all the hellfires have gotten you to really low hp. Until summoner gets fixed so that it actually has to participate in fights, I will be taking a break from the game. I have no intention to play in an asymmetrical game where one side can just camp roofs succesfully. The main issue is basically hellfire, change it, don't make it work like it currently does. The summons are also an issue at this state, but they're not strong enough to be a game changer, just irritating.

Khalith
3rd Feb 2015, 22:12
Summoner is fine.

Mayhzon
3rd Feb 2015, 22:15
I expect it to be changed in upcoming patches and don't plan to stop playing forever, but I just can't bring myself to play it again right now. I want to, I really do, but at the same time I don't.


I've said it about 6 times now but their damage is not what is threatening, it's their ability to block your bullets and abilities when it counts. You're helpless if you get advanced on while those are in your face.


I would agree if it only shielded her, the fact she can also throw it up to cover her team mates' escape is what breaks it for me.


None of which help your team.


At least in public play, it is not hard to get into a position as a vampire that faces all four humans. In my experience players like to stay too close and like to stay in a line. I've tried to stop it but that's just what they do.


It blocks all projectiles that would have to pass through the shield, which is almost everything. The hunter for example is completely useless in this scenario. Splitting up also isn't always an option, it's not like you're 1v4, there's other **** going on, you don't have time to sprint around her or you will probably die to any vampire that notices you.


By four summoners the minions actually are a serious issue, they're just everywhere and you can't hit anything but them. You're constantly being bombed and people slowly get picked off as they run around trying not to die.


The Reaver has to come into melee range to be useful though, the choking haze is nice but avoidable and if that's all he's doing he might as well not exist. The radius on the Sentinal bomb is imo much smaller, it also has to come in to properly utilise its kit, they are also EXTREMELY vulnerable while throwing the bomb and will feed kills if that's all they do. IMO the summoner can be quite effective by barely coming in at all and instead using its abilities to cover their team and cause distraction.


There's nothing wrong with strong combos, there is a problem with infuriating combos.


I am aware that in high skill situations the humans are far stronger - prepatch, and probably still are - but on the whole this post wasn't so much about the Summoner being OP as it was about it being anti fun. For your information I actually won the game with a team score of around 52-46. It was the least fun I'd ever had and I quit immediately after and haven't played since.
So basically you think it's not overpowered, but just not fun.

Well okay that's not what I expected. I guess I should have read more thoroughly.

Razaiim
3rd Feb 2015, 22:30
Yes Abyssal bolt requires more skill to use than hell strike, but best case scenario the payout is the same. if it had something besides raw damage, that;d be something. Maybe a gravity vortex, maybe little ghoul babies come spewing out of it, it just needs something more.

ApollosBow
3rd Feb 2015, 22:36
I now agree with this....i thought it was instant 400 like the kick, but i must have been getting lucky in the first few games cause later i noticed 200's alot, its fine the way she is, dont touch her, shes create, good job dev team

Ysanoire
3rd Feb 2015, 22:40
There's no need for a Summoner to ever go into a fight, since all you need is 3 other summoners throwing Hellfires/Summons at the humans. If the humans are still high hp, the Summoners just keep camping on roofs until the cooldowns are met. Once the humans actually go for a heal to get hp/more ammo, the Summoners are there to pick them off.



I played almost nothing but Flashpoint today so I didn't have that problem, but I'm not sure it's really different from choking haze Reavers and airstrike Sentinels. TECHNICALLY they can just throw **** at you and hide, rinse, lather repeat, but there are healing mists and sacrifices that make it completely unfeasible to actually kill humans like this.

It may be boring, but people shouldn't keep playing it after they realise it doesn't get them the kills.

ApollosBow
3rd Feb 2015, 22:40
I think the damage on all her abilities is spot on, very good balance.....cant wait for a replacement for the barrier though cause to me Id have to use a mic with another teammate to co-ordinate its use.....cept for maybe defending feeders

Ghosthree3
3rd Feb 2015, 22:45
So basically you think it's not overpowered, but just not fun.

Well okay that's not what I expected. I guess I should have read more thoroughly.
Not fun to play against*

Except the shield, I think the potential on that is way too high, though it would require some really good team work.

Basically playing against four of those was just the worst experience I've had in a video game in a long time. It may be beatable, it probably is, but it sure isn't anywhere close to fun.

I don't think you read carelessly or anything, it's not clear what my over all problem was - anti-fun - unless you read my first reply in the thread. I could see how it could be seen as a post raging at the newest thing being OP.

Though it may be, there hasn't been enough time to tell yet.

Ysanoire
3rd Feb 2015, 22:55
I haven't been able to really put Shield to good use.

If these Summoners you've met were successfully shielding their teammates in a way that really made the difference, I want to see the demo because they must be really pro.

PencileyePirate
3rd Feb 2015, 23:12
I think the damages are all fine, but [in my experience playing against Summoner as human] Abyssal is a little too easy to avoid ... I would like to see the time before explosion reduced.

PencileyePirate
3rd Feb 2015, 23:14
Summoner is fine and didn't break anything. Roof camping is still not a viable tactic against even half-decent humans, since Summoners will need to actually jump in and fight to score a kill. She's really no different than Reaver in this regard ... activate your AOEs and then jump in.

Cristari
3rd Feb 2015, 23:34
She could use more skills. Very lacking in abilities but what we have atm works quite well.

GenFeelGood
3rd Feb 2015, 23:41
I would rather hell strike had a smaller attack area while dealing greater damage, more of a surgical hell strike. For the abyssal bolt I think it would be better buffed if made sticky, imagine another vamp class moving with this hanging on their back.

I also agree that the ghouls need better orientation.

ApollosBow
4th Feb 2015, 00:40
ye i agree, i figure they'll add a new one to replace shield first, suppose the deceiver had a similar release.

Ygdrasel
4th Feb 2015, 00:43
Played a few rounds. Died a few times before realizing all of her abilities are hold-and-release types like Pounce.

Anyway:

Abyssal Bolt: Haven't quite mastered the arc but I like it just fine. Seems a tad too easy to avoid though. Both playing Summoner and against Summoner, it's too easy to dodge this thing. Less delay before the BOOM would be great.

Hell Strike: Like Gen said, a damage buff would be nice. Smaller area, I could give or take.

Summon Stalker/Slayer: I like them. The Stalkers add a little extra chaos (what fresh hell a coordinated Stalker Summoner and Illusions Deceiver could bring) and damage and the Slayer functions reasonably well as a sort of extra team member. I tend to go in and help out the ghouls if the enemy's health isn't too high. Everyone's already mentioned the goofy pathfinding and how they apparently lose track of anyone a stair step above them so I needn't reiterate...Though I just did.



Barrier: Okay, so I had trouble with this one. I can't effectively operate the movement keys while holding F (physical issues) so I had to do some creative button-mapping on my gaming mouse. It solved the problem but...This ability is still pretty useless.

You get a shield. Great, defense! Except it only defends the front, and it slows you down, and you can't attack while it's up. So, you can't attack and the speed penalty renders it worthless as escape cover (and even if it didn't, you'd have to back away to escape because it only shields your front). So what is that defense good for? A few extra seconds of life during which you can't do anything.

I'd either make the barrier all-around to provide fuller defense or else give it some ability befitting a spectral wizard. Maybe damage absorbed by the shield is returned in part (not too big a part, mind) to the attacker. (And either way, that'd be a nice sidegrade option later with a fitting tradeoff)

Given her clan's ties to the spectral plane, perhaps also a small teleport when other options for the shield's ability slot come around.


The abilities all look amazing. Her running animation seems oddly stiff, that bugs me a bit. And I know Melchiah's the boss but she could suck up less. :worship: But all in all, great new class. Summons have wonky pathfinding and such but the rest works nicely for a first official run.

(After more time with Abyssal Barrier, it's proving more useful...But I'd still prefer a shield that covers your back too. Even using the shield as it's meant to be used, get blasted from multiple sides and you're screwed.)

PencileyePirate
4th Feb 2015, 00:51
I agree, no nerfs plz. If anything Abyssal may need a slight buff to make it easier to land.

Shield could also last a second longer, imo.

--Ram--
4th Feb 2015, 01:12
She could use more skills. Very lacking in abilities

:mad2:

Karasu416
4th Feb 2015, 02:06
It REALLY didn't break it.
I just finished playing a straight 12 hours of Nosgoth, playing purely summoner on my vamp times. And nobody did this, the only time we camped was when it was a 2 v 4 game and so both me and him did it to survive. Otherwise, not a single game i was in this entire whole 12 hours did anyone do that.

SECONDLY, yes hell fire can do UPTO 400 but thats not even a guaruntee. Also, like stated, unless you jump in you'll mostly be racking up damage and assists as opposed to kills from what I've noticed.
On top of that, the summoner hell fire is occasionally bugged where it will not deal damage at all to those in the circle.
I also had several matches as humans going against 2-3 Summoners on the enemy team and doing just fine against them.

So honestly, I think your complaint about them being broken isn't that accurate. If anything it adds a new element to keep humans on the move as well instead of hole-ing up since we can now send in minions to push them out of buildings or otherwise too.

Ygdrasel
4th Feb 2015, 02:28
...having no chance of escaping since the only indication of the ability being used is visual.

There's a clear visual cue. You said it.

That you don't take that cue as a sign to get away is YOUR fault, not the programmers'.

Nerbzz
4th Feb 2015, 02:43
I've never had a problem facing any summoners today. I think it makes it actually easier for the humans since she's rather squishy without the Blood Vitality perk. She's easier to 1v1 than any other vampire anyways.


The summoner is the easiest class to play against in my opinion. Tired of them roof camping? Break out the scout and just snipe them, the summoner is very squishy and a scout destroys her.

netmota
4th Feb 2015, 02:50
I think summoner dont need any fix... only need to fix the hellfire bug on some places that dont work... Summoner is an extremely easy target for alchemist... And not so powerfull.. Is melee is terrible and she definetively needs that amout of damage... Like tirants doing 500+ damage on jump atack... You can only escape jump atack by visual prediction or sound effect... And summoner is the same thing... To summoner release the hellfire it have to be visible and before the imediate impact theres a visual reference to let you escape. The global amout of damage taken by almost summoners are low compared to other classes... This thread dont have much fundament

HoopleDoople
4th Feb 2015, 04:06
I knew it was going to be bad, but I wasn't quite expecting gameplay to be quite so dismal on patch day.

Obviously 95% of Vampire players are rolling as Summoner which is less than ideal, but it's new and shiny so I'm not complaining about that. However, the Summoner seems to really have widened the gap between the haves and the have nots (in terms of skill and competence).

The Summoner really requires humans to tighten up their strategy and positioning, particularly when used en masse. Stick together too tightly and prepare to get nuked; separate at all and enjoy being swarmed by hordes (the key is spreading out without separating). That said, the Summoner has been actively encouraging bad habits as vampires. Ability spam from the rooftops seems to be the order of the day, with little to no thought of actual entering melee combat. God help the one vampire who tries to lead the charge only to have her allies sit back and watch her demise.

With so many players attempting to learn the Summoner even otherwise good players are performing initially like low skill players. This makes it near impossible for the MMR system to do its job. Quitters are therefore rampant, not that I really blame them at this time.

Luckily this should abate over time as players learn how to play as or against the Summoner and tire of using their shiny new toy exclusively. I am optimistic that the Summoner will be a positive addition to the game with time, and I quite like some of the other changes. The reworked Piercing Pistols in particular are really neat and provide an actual alternative to the Heavy Pistols (plus I've had a mysterious pair sitting around from before the patch).

My one specific complaint would be that Abyssal Bolt looks to be decidedly inferior to Hell Strike. I haven't yet unlocked it for my own use but the Summoners utilizing Hell Strike on me were significantly more deadly than those with Abyssal Bolt.

Perhaps for the Shield Bearer's release temporary class limits could be utilized. For one week after release, players would alternate matches with use of the Shield Bearer locked and unlocked. This should allow for some semblance of normal gameplay and prevent entire teams from being clueless as to how to play their class. Quitting while Shield Bearer is locked would NOT unlock him for the next match; quitting while the Shield Bearer was unlocked WOULD lock him for the next match.

Ygdrasel
4th Feb 2015, 05:28
ITT: "I played a match where everyone was a Summoner and spammed hellfire at me. GAME IS BROKEN!"

Sometimes teams play all of the same class. Sometimes they then spam easy attacks. It's your job to adapt and force them to change their tactics.

Rago600
4th Feb 2015, 07:19
Every New Class the same Topics, everytime.:nut:

Sasha_Vykos
4th Feb 2015, 07:43
Oktagon is a great player from a great team and he probably talk because he has a lot of experience in the game, so I don't think comments like the last 2 are useful and I generally read with interest comments from these players.

That said, I don't want to judge the summoner because I just played 10 matches yesterday and I think that we have to learn how to counter it and how to play against it but, to be honest, yesterday I found the game drastically changed..thts is my feeling. I am not saying that this is necessarily bad, but a ranged vampire like this changes everything. I didn't enjoy playing the game yesterday like I enjoy it usually, I hope this happened just because of the summoner spam and because I am not used to play against it, but I've found the game less tactical from the human side, more casually and with an incredible mess in the battlefield.

This is just my opinion.

Rago600
4th Feb 2015, 08:14
I know Octagon from Ingame too, there are some Players that you see more often ;) dont you think.
Of course it did Change like, -> Hey i can shoot awsome.

Im also sure there will be some nerve, incoming someday.
But i totally NOT agree with that it Breaks the Game, the Game changed and we have to see how all turns out when the Shieldbearer is in & this is tested long enough.

Give it a chance to Grow.

Ysanoire
4th Feb 2015, 08:15
but I've found the game less tactical from the human side, more casually and with an incredible mess in the battlefield.

My feelings exactly. The word I want to use is "cluster****". But most of my games had 2-3 summoners in them, with one it wasn't too bad.

PencileyePirate
4th Feb 2015, 08:17
After playing a bit more I think Hellfire needs a better/earlier audio cue, but apart from that the class is well balanced.

Kodyai
4th Feb 2015, 09:53
Summoner changed and refresh game, and I think this is very good. Before update Standart game look like 2 scouts and 2 sentinels, especially if play hi-lvl players. It was totally predicteble and boring, but now - old standards didn't work, all we need new tactics and new vision of game - this is awesome. Yes, first few days would be strange and maybe stupid, whith all this Summoner-spam, just because players watching new class, but later - we all see new stage of nosgoth tactics. When we find how play Summoner, with she and against she. I really don't see nothing bad in this.

P.S. And Summoner second vampire class, who I loved in nosgoth:-)
Sorry for my English.

Rago600
4th Feb 2015, 10:49
My feelings exactly. The word I want to use is "cluster****". But most of my games had 2-3 summoners in them, with one it wasn't too bad.

This is agreed, i also had a against 4 Summoners Match on flashpoint.
It feels like Meeting the "Pet Shop Boys", spam XD
But with a Prohet and a Scout we tuned the Tide.

Anyway it´s basically the 4 Players same Class thing in all matches it does not matter if it´s reaver´s or Summoner´s and so on.
Can be annoying ,But i also would not remove it.
Everyone should have the freedom to Play what he want´s to.

BTW The New Shadowstep is so much more better in anyway ! I love it.

shinros
4th Feb 2015, 12:24
Right the summoner lines are great and all but I found it kinda strange that after executions she says nothing unlike the other vampire classes. Heck all she does is grunts I would not mind it if the sound effects of extracting their blood magically was awesome but the strange thing is the execution HAS no sound effects. With the other vampires you at least hear the sound of breaking bones, impalement and the sound of a throat being slit.

Then you get an epic line from the vampire. (Deciever has the best lines in my opinion)

Yet all the summoner does is grunts? :scratch: Is the sound effects/voice over still being developed or is this it? :scratch: If that's the case I am just going to say her execution is plain bad and something needs to be done with it if you can't get voice work at least make it sound awesome.

Considering how epic her other one looked I was thinking about buying it until this issue came up now I won't buy it at all. Which I am kinda sad about. :(

Vampmaster
4th Feb 2015, 12:32
She could say something like "Flow into me!" And if a blood shower move gets added later on "I bathe in your blood!"

Cristari
4th Feb 2015, 12:39
Can someone also confirm if Blood Rain has a longer animation than Essanguinate?
I cant be sure but it feels longer.


This game was broken when they stopped team balancing and party splitting.

Jallford
4th Feb 2015, 12:53
Hell Strike does all the damage of a Tyrant jump with none of the risk (if well aimed), I think that could be a problem.

But yesterday after playing against teams of 4 Summoners I don't think it 'broke' the game. As others have said Summoners aren't great in close combat, getting hit by a Hell Strike just meant resupplying. Full teams of Summoners don't seem effective, they seem better suited for assisting other vampires/attacking unwary targets which doesn't work if everyone's a Summoner.

Da_Wolv
4th Feb 2015, 13:06
We played matches against 4 really good Summoners, and they had no chance against just 1 Grappling Hook Scout and 2 Alchemists.

Yes, you need to adapt your tactics more now, your loadout needs to be changed from time to time to react to something new - I think its a good thing.

Now the sound cues - those need improvement. I can hardly hear stuff as it is already, but Hellstrike is almost completely silent for me, even from the front, also, considering that, as Jallford said:
"Hell Strike does all the damage of a Tyrant jump with none of the risk (if well aimed), I think that could be a problem.";
I concur that the ability might need some tweaking in wind-up time or dmg

shinros
4th Feb 2015, 13:19
She could say something like "Flow into me!" And if a blood shower move gets added later on "I bathe in your blood!"

Yeah that would sound cool, still I am not sure if they can get a voice actor back to voice 2 lines since it does not seem feasible but all I want at the end of the day is for the execution to at least sound cool.

Now if they CAN get the voice actor back I will be quite happy. :D


Eh my problem with summoner is simply that considering how good her abilities are her basic attacks do too much damage in my opinion. She is like a reaver but with summons.

Vampmaster
4th Feb 2015, 14:04
Most vampire classes specifically rely on Reavers to help initiate. Or it seems that way to me. It's good to have the summoner as an alternative.

Jallford
4th Feb 2015, 14:38
Eh my problem with summoner is simply that considering how good her abilities are her basic attacks do too much damage in my opinion. She is like a reaver but with summons.

Summoner isn't as fast and has no way of closing distance. Say Summoner hits you with Hell Strike, uses summons which you kill. You can then go and resupply and she's forced to melee in plain sight. There's no pounce to finish you off or any escapes beyond shield (and backing away slowly like you're in a hostage situation gone wrong isn't an 'escape' in my opinion).

Aggggh
4th Feb 2015, 14:46
The problem with the summoner isn't how powerful she is on her own. It's how easily and quickly she can soften targets for other classes. Obviously 4 summoner teams won't be that great, but two summoners allow for nigh on riskless initiation/ranged support that allows other classes to move in and mop up with ease.


I also posted this over here (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=151733&p=2102478):

Summoner is fine and didn't break anything. Roof camping is still not a viable tactic against even half-decent humans, since Summoners will need to actually jump in and fight to score a kill. She's really no different than Reaver in this regard ... activate your AOEs and then jump in.

Posts like these are missing the big picture. Classes aren't good or bad based on their ability to kill farm/kd whore. Her ability to initiate is unparalleled atm and is potentially game breaking.

Choking haze has much more predictable visual and audio cues, not to mention it requires people to stand in it to get the same amount of damage hellstrike's burst damage typically yields.


Summoner isn't as fast and has no way of closing distance. Say Summoner hits you with Hell Strike, uses summons which you kill. You can then go and resupply and she's forced to melee in plain sight. There's no pounce to finish you off or any escapes beyond shield (and backing away slowly like you're in a hostage situation gone wrong isn't an 'escape' in my opinion).
Last I checked this is a team game. She doesn't need to finish you off. Her team mates will see you at 6-700 health and swoop in for the kill.

Besides, summons are at their most effective in the middle of a fight. Popping those summons right as you're coming down for the kill makes for a lot of targets for humans that you've already lit up with hellstrike.

Sanguise23
4th Feb 2015, 14:49
i had a blast playing against summoners yesterday, so much chaos!!!! stormbow and volley is a nice counter, also i was stomping with prophet against them, maybe you need some spaghetti

netmota
4th Feb 2015, 14:53
The shield that summoner uses is complectly useless for xbox controller users... i think the shield should be a circular ball over the summoner body because you cant step back whith xbox controler and wen you use the shield you will rotate the character to step back and anyone can hit you from behind.

SquirrelInDaSky
4th Feb 2015, 15:05
What's a controller?

Saikocat
4th Feb 2015, 15:06
Hey guys

Which of the two executions is it with, just the alternate one or both?
It looks like there's an issue with the alt execution, so I've raised that here.


I'll share the feedback with the guys!

MasterShuriko
4th Feb 2015, 15:09
Already made a report here http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=151738
Reported it yesterday.

And I can say that theres lots of sounds regarding the summoner that doesnt work.

Firehex
4th Feb 2015, 15:16
Played today first game after new patch - 4 summoners in enemy team... That was...most boring 10 minutes in this game. Just random spam of their explosions and adds... Sometimes nothing happened for minute - they were just camping with low hp on roofs... Giving vampires nasty range explosions + summons is bad idea. Hope people will stop to play this class too much.

Saikocat
4th Feb 2015, 15:36
Just personally, I've seen a few teams in public matches last night trying to stack them, and then the other team adapted and changed tactics around that, and very effectively so. Like many abilities or combinations, and with the classes we'd already added so far, people mix and match things and find ways to try and counter what the other team are doing.

But we'll certainly be keeping an eye on feedback (in general) about the class. It will take a little longer to really see how people adapt to her and how it affects their play and tactics, but we're here, reading everything (and of course playing in public matches ourselves too).

Vampmaster
4th Feb 2015, 15:38
This is what I was asking about on twitter. Greg apparently talked about possible solutions, but I can't find the video to see what those were.

See related thread:
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=151695&p=2102280#post2102280

Khalith
4th Feb 2015, 15:47
Just personally, I've seen a few teams in public matches last night trying to stack them, and then the other team adapted and changed tactics around that, and very effectively so. Like many abilities or combinations, and with the classes we'd already added so far, people mix and match things and find ways to try and counter what the other team are doing.
Good to hear! I'm hoping that the Summon bugs (pathing and the Summon Slayer spell not working but still going on cd mainly) will be fixed soon.

A lot of the complaints so far have largely been from people not used to it. Staying mobile and using alchemists effectively counters the summoners pretty handily. The only ones that I've seen struggling against it are hunters and scouts with their aoe's down as the adds eat their cc and let the summoner take them down pretty easily.

Da_Wolv
4th Feb 2015, 15:48
For keyboard users:

Anyone else feeling like it should be on RMB?
Because I think its a little janky to walk with it while holding down E.

In general I'd greatly appreciate the ability to set different keys for different classes to bypass this entirely.



Played today first game after new patch - 4 summoners in enemy team... That was...most boring 10 minutes in this game. Just random spam of their explosions and adds... Sometimes nothing happened for minute - they were just camping with low hp on roofs... Giving vampires nasty range explosions + summons is bad idea. Hope people will stop to play this class too much.

but they also lost hard... so
Sooner or later people will wise up on how to counter it and then it will stop being an issue.


I think at this point we all played enough of/ and against the summoner to make an informed opinion.

She feels ok - pretty easy to pick up but hard to master.
The Hell Strike ability however needs some serious work:

- Its very buggy still - sometimes you can see the projectiles land right on the target and do no damage. BUT Currently, thats also very nice, since the ability would be a little OP otherwise:

- It has no audio tells. You cannot hear it being cast from further than a couple meters and you cannot hear the projectiles travelling toward you either.
- It has no ground AoE-marker. This is really the biggest issue. If a summoner stands right in front of you and shoots the strike at you, you have no idea how close or how far from the current position its going to land. Which makes dodging it pure luck and coincidence.

- I think its activation time could also be a tiny bit longer, as most people feel encouraged to camp on roofs as it really gives you no incentive to go down and join the action, especially since you can just send Ghouls down to do your dirty work.

Korevas
4th Feb 2015, 16:46
People are seriously playing this on a controller? Are they in the same lobbies as keyboard users? I have been away for a while and really just wondered how the bads could possibly get any worse in the meantime. This would explain a lot.

--Ram--
4th Feb 2015, 18:00
After my few games playing as / against summoner today I must say that the Summoner certainly has the potential to make rounds painfully boring and lame. The worst round of Nosgoth I've ever experienced vs quad stack summoners ended at 7-2 in favor of humans (I was human). The quad stack summoners basically have little incentive to commit to melee engagements, and they gradually get chipped down, further reducing their desire to go in knowing the will die.

I know this is only a first impression but I can't help feel that the summoner has lowered the bar in terms of what fun can be had in a solo queue game, and that it creates the potential for many rounds to feel empty and lacking. I just don't agree with having a class that feels so comfortable camping and chipping away while not needing to take any risk to achieve it. I can think of ways to counter this tactic but they do require the cooperation of a team which is a rare commodity in pub games.

I have no issues with dealing with Summoner personally and don't think it is overpowered, however what I experienced today does make me less willing to solo queue.

Phytik
4th Feb 2015, 18:00
For me Nosgoth is broken since the Summoner :(
It isnt a Close vs Range combat. It changed to ranged vs ranged.

Also in an organized team the human will never stand a chance. 3 Summoners need to target 1 and just use there Hellfire to kill him. If there are 4 Summoners it is even easier. 1 Barriers the other 3 stand behind it and cast hellfire on 1 target.

Summoner can cast Hellfire on human without being seen.

Game got so chaotic now.
Game takes so long to end now.

Game kinda changed for me. I think the Summoner needs a big nerf in range.
I will look into the forums from time to time to see if there are any changed. Have fun everyone else.

Mayhzon
4th Feb 2015, 18:40
For me Nosgoth is broken since the Summoner :(
It isnt a Close vs Range combat. It changed to ranged vs ranged.

Also in an organized team the human will never stand a chance. 3 Summoners need to target 1 and just use there Hellfire to kill him. If there are 4 Summoners it is even easier. 1 Barriers the other 3 stand behind it and cast hellfire on 1 target.

Summoner can cast Hellfire on human without being seen.

Game got so chaotic now.
Game takes so long to end now.

Game kinda changed for me. I think the Summoner needs a big nerf in range.
I will look into the forums from time to time to see if there are any changed. Have fun everyone else.
In an organized team, it will actually be the opposite and vampires will barely stand a chance.

Ygdrasel
4th Feb 2015, 18:47
For me Nosgoth is broken since the Summoner :(
It isnt a Close vs Range combat. It changed to ranged vs ranged.

Also in an organized team the human will never stand a chance. 3 Summoners need to target 1 and just use there Hellfire to kill him. If there are 4 Summoners it is even easier. 1 Barriers the other 3 stand behind it and cast hellfire on 1 target.

Summoner can cast Hellfire on human without being seen.

Game got so chaotic now.
Game takes so long to end now.

Game kinda changed for me. I think the Summoner needs a big nerf in range.
I will look into the forums from time to time to see if there are any changed. Have fun everyone else.

Very few matches overall will have three to four Summoners all at once. In fact, I only saw one match with four, and none with three during a whole day of playtime. It just came out, people are playing with it now. But most, inevitably, will revert back to other classes soon. I ran nothing but Prophet for three straight days but I still went back to Alchemist after I'd had my fun with the new toy.

...And really, "the game got chaotic" is a deal-breaker for you? It's war. Of course it's chaotic!

Three_Pies
4th Feb 2015, 18:47
My current favourite two counters against a Summoner stack (which is really not an effective play):

1) Alchemist with flamethrower. Quick minion toasting, and really funny if they try the 'shield advance' thing. Throwing Light Bombs behind her shield is also amusing.

2) Prophet with Draining Curse (+ Life Leech for that little extra oomph). Put those minions to use as health, the more that jump you the more invulnerable you are. Funny stuff.

Overall I find the Summoner a nice addition, a lot of fun to play as / with / against, quite well balanced with good team play potential. I think some people are still getting to grips with how to fight her (Healing Mist isn't all that good an idea, it just provides a handy target) and how to fight as her (every time someone refers to her or plays her as a ranged class, someone somewhere is wrong).

As it stands, all her abilities seem fine, the best uses of the Abyssal Barrier I've seen being well-timed blocks of the crazy OP human CC, and to defend feeding teammates so that they actually have a proper chance to regain lost health.

Once the new class hype wears off a little, we'll see more balanced teams again, in which a skilled Summoner is far more effective. I look forward to seeing what the Shield Bearer will bring to the table.

Addendum - I do have one problem with the Summoner; the Abyssal Bolt is pretty much a straight downgrade from its alternative. It's way too easy to escape and needs to be given a different functionality, I feel. Oh, and that her executions are weirdly silent bugs me. And occasionally her minions glitch out and do no damage. Other than that, she's great!

Phytik
4th Feb 2015, 18:49
In an organized team, it will actually be the opposite and vampires will barely stand a chance.

how do you plan on winning against an organized vamp team if you cant even see/hit the summoner ?
Like I said. You can cast hellfire without being seen.

Ygdrasel
4th Feb 2015, 18:52
how do you plan on winning against an organized vamp team if you cant even see/hit the summoner ?
Like I said. You can cast hellfire without being seen.

Hellfire has to be aimed, I.E. the humans have to be in the Summoner's line of sight. She can see you, you can probably see her. Stay sharp.

GenFeelGood
4th Feb 2015, 18:54
I think hell strike should be surgical, smaller and dealing greater damage. I have landed strikes against players far enough away that only a scout could match it and around obstructions that he couldn't hope to bypass.

Phytik
4th Feb 2015, 18:54
Hellfire has to be aimed, I.E. the humans have to be in the Summoner's line of sight. She can see you, you can probably see her. Stay sharp.

Not if you know how to use it :P
For example stay in cover on a roof. Cast Hellfire. Move the mouse higher so you dont cast it on the roof. That way you can also cast Hellfire trough buildings if you aim over the buildings :D

Rago600
4th Feb 2015, 18:57
Just as additon

-IT has no ground Marker for the Enemy Team, Projectiles Haze ect also dont have this.
Example ? Did You ever Saw a Marker for Disabling Curse ? - no you did not.
Obsolete argument.imho i dont intend to be rude here, mind the language barrier between us.

Its okay like it is.

-Projectiles dont Hit this is agreed
- Audio Tells ? You can hear something coming close by then it impacts.

-Roof campers be roof campers, the cooldown time is quite okay imho but this needs more testing.

Just to have another opinion ;)

Firehex
4th Feb 2015, 18:57
Yeap...Summoners not so crazy OP,but game vs 4 of them can be soooo boring and lame =( Devs should make some restriction what players can't pick 4 same class.

rseifert
4th Feb 2015, 18:58
I played a few hours with her yesterday, and I found games neither boring nor broken. Stacking summoners meant 2 things: 1. prophets never lose hp because they drain from summons which walk in nice, easy to hit paths. 2. poking with hell strike over and over eventually gets you shot in the head by a scout (1 charged scout arrow = more damage then a direct hit hellstrike, has a much lower cd, and has almost no travel time. Think of that before you think hellstrike is OP.) . I saw some teams summoner spam and try to camp but they simply got out damaged by the humans, and would have to either hide and lose (which I agree is boring, but most players will rather try to get kills than lose a match) or try an engage, where they usually lose hard in a 4v4.

However, I had an awesome time playing her in a team that was not 4 summoners. She is, in my opinion, the strongest 1v1 vampire in the game right now, as summons are not only dps but meat shields. Also if you're good (which I'm not) I believe you can time the shield to block bola/hex/etc mid fight. She has some great synergy with most of the classes. I had one game where I played with a Deceiver running Illusion and we were the initiate. Disguise+Illusion and Abyssal Bolt/Hellstrike+Summon Stalkers is a huge disruptive engage and throws 4 extra bodies into the fight that make the humans side of the fight complete chaos.

I expect players are already figuring out tactics like this and counters.

TL;DR: I don't think the summoner is broken as she gets out DPS'ed by humans if she only wants to poke, wrecked if 4 summoners try to engage, and usually teams wont sit and hide when they are losing but die and change class. But I think she is extremely powerful when used correctly, dominant in 1 v 1, and a ton of fun. Like any new addition to a game like this (how many people playing LoL instaban the new champion the first week they come out because theyre OP?) I am sure she will find her place in time.

Firehex
4th Feb 2015, 19:02
Not if you know how to use it :P
For example stay in cover on a roof. Cast Hellfire. Move the mouse higher so you dont cast it on the roof. That way you can also cast Hellfire trough buildings if you aim over the buildings :D

Same mechanic with air strike =) you don't need to see target to hit it.

Da_Wolv
4th Feb 2015, 19:08
I don't want to claim that the Summoner is inherently broken, BUT currently almost all matches result in a boring human round, just waiting for something to happen while having to dodge ranged attacks and mowing down Ghouls.

Most importantly though, if you get behind in kills as human, you can't really catch up anymore.
This is particularly problematic on The Fane, as per the new changes, theres just way too much cover for the vampires on the roofs. They can't be hit by volleys or direct shots, you would have to throw in multiple grenades to kill them, and thats assuming they don't dodge those.

Flashpoint is still somewhat playable, but not a lot of people seem to play it.

Phytik
4th Feb 2015, 19:16
Same mechanic with air strike =) you don't need to see target to hit it.

After it lands you have 1.5 seconds (if im not wrong) to get away from it. You cant see where hellfire will land.

Ygdrasel
4th Feb 2015, 19:16
Not if you know how to use it :P
For example stay in cover on a roof. Cast Hellfire. Move the mouse higher so you dont cast it on the roof. That way you can also cast Hellfire trough buildings if you aim over the buildings :D

Okay, so get away when they cast it. Take cover yourself. Get inside. Force them to change their tactic.

Most threads like "They broke the game!" or "Everyone's playing the same class/spamming an ability!" or "[x] needs nerf!" is solved with the same core advice: Adapt.


All of my human rounds have been against a mix of vampires. Two summoners max, and they're not even close to the relentless Terminators suggested.

Need grenades to kill them? Use grenades. And I've watched plenty of Summoners get hit by volleys on the roof so that just isn't true.

--Ram--
4th Feb 2015, 19:33
1. prophets never lose hp because they drain from summons which walk in nice, easy to hit paths. 2. poking with hell strike over and over eventually gets you shot in the head by a scout (1 charged scout arrow = more damage then a direct hit hellstrike, has a much lower cd, and has almost no travel time. Think of that before you think hellstrike is OP.) . I saw some teams summoner spam and try to camp but they simply got out damaged by the humans, and would have to either hide and lose (which I agree is boring, but most players will rather try to get kills than lose a match) or try an engage, where they usually lose hard in a 4v4.



Agree with prophet being a good counter pick.

As for scout charged shots countering hellstrike, that is in many cases the polar opposite of what happens. Summoners in fact don't need to poke their heads out at all to hellstrike, and charged up scouts are an easy target. All they have to do is measure the range and launch it over an object or wall. Requires some practice but it is risk free.

eXmoRtiZ
4th Feb 2015, 19:44
Ye, it's funny, players want to find to counter the stupid fok ghouls, with SKILLS, not autoattack. So if vampire comes, u have ur weapon, and skills on cooldown. And it's fun, when u r on vampire side, watch ur stupid teammates camping rooftops, waiting for cooldowns of the summoner, proud to do 6k damage , and 3-1-x stats, cuz humans just fight with they ghouls... Other vampire classes meantime just try to go in (or do nothing), to make some damage, ofc normal teams just **** them up, cuz actually the other classes just soloing the enemies, cuz summoners still camping on rooftops.

I think ghoul thing is not okay, and, hellstrike need some nerf, (100 maybe) cuz it's op.
The gamepace is going down to ****gly slow after summoner.

I wanted it, but after patch, i really don't like it :( The whole team doing 14+k damage, still loosing. Awesome.

Louves
4th Feb 2015, 20:00
- It has no ground AoE-marker. This is really the biggest issue. If a summoner stands right in front of you and shoots the strike at you, you have no idea how close or how far from the current position its going to land. Which makes dodging it pure luck and coincidence.


An AoE-marker would be neat. At the moment it feels like an Airstrike with higher damage but without the fuse length.

PencileyePirate
4th Feb 2015, 20:37
I agree Hellstrike needs an audio tell like other vampire grenades (Smoke/CH/Airstrike.) Right now the timing of the audio cue occurs right before impact and the only way to avoid taking damage is to see the attack coming.


I don't want to claim that the Summoner is inherently broken, BUT currently almost all matches result in a boring human round, just waiting for something to happen while having to dodge ranged attacks and mowing down Ghouls.

Most importantly though, if you get behind in kills as human, you can't really catch up anymore. This is particularly problematic on The Fane, as per the new changes, theres just way too much cover for the vampires on the roofs. They can't be hit by volleys or direct shots, you would have to throw in multiple grenades to kill them, and thats assuming they don't dodge those.

I think you're fighting Summoners who don't know what they're doing yet. In my experience once you get the hang of the class she's fairly up close and personal. I think that [as long as you don't have newbie roof campers] she actually speeds up the gameplay on human side.

Even when vamps actually decide to roof-camp ... it's not a viable tactic. Grenades, explosive shot, volley, & alchemist cannons all tend to drive them off roofs pretty quickly. I don't think you'll continue to see a lot of these "slow" games as people improve w/ the new class.

Lord_Aevum
4th Feb 2015, 20:53
Moderator note: Given the influx of valuable feedback on the Summoner class, we have decided to merge all relevant topics into a unified thread for future convenience. Please excuse any muddling of past conversations which may arise from the mass merge. We understand this is temporarily unintuitive, but it will make matters easier from here on. Until further notice, this is the preferred venue for Summoner discussion.

Cristari
4th Feb 2015, 21:04
Hellfire has to be aimed, I.E. the humans have to be in the Summoner's line of sight. She can see you, you can probably see her. Stay sharp.

Not entirely true.

You can aim Hellfire over ledges and the like you do need a little vision of where they are but you can aim beyond then drag it toward them and lob your shot over or around objects. My Fav is sending them into the doorway of a building they all are hiding in.

Cristari
4th Feb 2015, 21:15
Just wondering if there will be more skills planned for Summoner. Lvl 5 Reward chest was green Abysmal Strike & Hellfire and lvl 10 was green Abysmal Strike and Hellfire. Not exactly a lot to choose from to be honest.

How about a rapid fire ability instead of a Glowing AOE ball that everyone runs away from or the Powerful Hellfire we could get a single stream quick firing ability that lasts for a few moments like the Shield does and/or uses up some sort of energy/counter before it starts recharging again.

How about an alternative to the Abyssal Barrier how about a dome that protects you and say 1 or 2 others for a limited time impervious to shots, Bolas and grenades but not to AOE unless it's a thrown grenade and can allow Humans to pass into it. You could even have a version of it that heals?

I feel the Summoner atm is great but only really has 1 fit out that works. Stalkers and Helfire.

MasterShuriko
4th Feb 2015, 21:20
They already stated on the first page: http://www.nosgoth.com/blog
Scroll down to

The Summoner of Clan Melchahim
Cursed immortals trapped in decaying bodies, the Summoners of Clan Melchahim have delved into forbidden lore in their attempts to save themselves. Flesh-sculptors graft material from unwilling sacrifices to their own bodies to cover their putrescence, while soul-wrights call on the powers of the Underworld to fuel their battlefield sorceries of destruction, protection, and summoning. For our full blog her her background, click here.

The Summoner has the following abilities available at release, with more to come further down the line:

mauvo58
4th Feb 2015, 21:21
Just played my first games since the Summoner was added, I really didn't enjoy them very much. It was a hugely chaotic experience. :-(

Ygdrasel
4th Feb 2015, 21:46
Yeap...Summoners not so crazy OP,but game vs 4 of them can be soooo boring and lame =( Devs should make some restriction what players can't pick 4 same class.

No they shouldn't. This has never been a good idea.


Just played my first games since the Summoner was added, I really didn't enjoy them very much. It was a hugely chaotic experience. :-(

What's the problem with chaos? It's a war. Man up and fight. :P

NomzNomz
4th Feb 2015, 22:02
Hell strike is too strong. It helps you aim for 400 dmg. I feel its giving too much for holding your hand and pointing "look, here's where your blow will land". Odd example but yeah..

I forgot the name of the other one, one I feel is less of a cheap ability. I prefer this one, but the reward I feel when aiming true is spoiled when I see a summoner using hell strike and getting more damage and use. I'm using the no-auto aim ability here, shouldn't I feel more rewarded?

Da_Wolv
4th Feb 2015, 22:29
Hell strike is too strong. It helps you aim for 400 dmg. I feel its giving too much for holding your hand and pointing "look, here's where your blow will land". Odd example but yeah..

I forgot the name of the other one, one I feel is less of a cheap ability. I prefer this one, but the reward I feel when aiming true is spoiled when I see a summoner using hell strike and getting more damage and use. I'm using the no-auto aim ability here, shouldn't I feel more rewarded?

Exactly how I feel. Especially since noone ever gets hit by the final blast without being forced into it by other abilities.

Ysanoire
4th Feb 2015, 22:44
For keyboard users:

Anyone else feeling like it should be on RMB?
Because I think its a little janky to walk with it while holding down E.

In general I'd greatly appreciate the ability to set different keys for different classes to bypass this entirely.

Yes. This thing shouldn't be under the fingers you need to walk.

I already have one ability on my mouse, but it happens to be the primary ability, so changing the buttons would mess with my habits. I'd like to have this as a special or be able to change bindings specifically for the Summoner.

Cristari
4th Feb 2015, 22:47
They already stated on the first page: http://www.nosgoth.com/blog
Scroll down to

The Summoner of Clan Melchahim
Cursed immortals trapped in decaying bodies, the Summoners of Clan Melchahim have delved into forbidden lore in their attempts to save themselves. Flesh-sculptors graft material from unwilling sacrifices to their own bodies to cover their putrescence, while soul-wrights call on the powers of the Underworld to fuel their battlefield sorceries of destruction, protection, and summoning. For our full blog her her background, click here.

The Summoner has the following abilities available at release, with more to come further down the line:

Thanks for the reply was hoping for a little more clarity than just "More down the line" guess there is no hope of that now it's in this thread Oh well, Hay Ho!

Halpachino
4th Feb 2015, 22:50
I really dislike her for me she goes against the whole vampire feel of using there abilities to close the distance and engage humans .
the ability to sit up on ledges and spam abilities is very poor design for a vampire it makes it so you never want to engage.

she is also so bad at 1v1 a human as well which makes you not want ever directly engage humans ever anytime i have played her i am always afraid to help a teammate out as she is so bad at 1v1s all i can do is hope to distract them with summons.
Which brings me to my other point anytime someone plays summoner it always feels like its 3v4 when vampires engage as most summoners just sit up on a ledge and spam .i know most good summoners will engage with there summons but she is just so bad at direct engagements that she will prob die anyway.

So i really think she needs to be taken out and and redesigned for more direct engagements for that more vampire feel as now being half ranged just makes her feel weird and out of place with the asymmetrical balance of the game

Cristari
4th Feb 2015, 22:56
I really dislike her for me she goes against the whole vampire feel of using there abilities to close the distance and engage humans .
the ability to sit up on ledges and spam abilities is very poor design for a vampire it makes it so you never want to engage.

It's hardly spamming abilities you can spawn summons every 20 seconds and use hellfire every 20 seconds in between you just sit there while your summons die very quickly. A good Summoner has to think about how they are going to attack and when to attack They have to come down from the ledge and engage at some point or the other team members are going to be left a man short.

You may be getting the spam from Stacked Summoners where all of them are staggering abilities but I guess that will happen for a while or at least until Psyonix start limiting the number of classes in the game.

Halpachino
4th Feb 2015, 23:29
It's hardly spamming abilities you can spawn summons every 20 seconds and use hellfire every 20 seconds in between you just sit there while your summons die very quickly. A good Summoner has to think about how they are going to attack and when to attack They have to come down from the ledge and engage at some point or the other team members are going to be left a man short.

You may be getting the spam from Stacked Summoners where all of them are staggering abilities but I guess that will happen for a while or at least until Psyonix start limiting the number of classes in the game.

Maybe spam was the wrong word i just felt like when i saw people and myself included playing her i was hanging back alot never really engaging .

id rather her design was along the lines of
(primary )abyssal sword summons a spectral sword that swings in 180 arc has long reach does aoe.
(Q slot) summons fury spirit that floats above her head shooting magic missiles when in close range
(f slot) i think shield works fine although it should be hit f once instead of hold .

id rather she was built like this so she is better at direct engagements rather than the kind of half range thing she has going on.
people would then be more inclined to engage rather than hang back.
Its just my personal opinion but i just thought id see if anyone else felt the same

Duffie7
4th Feb 2015, 23:30
My initial impressions were that she wasn't very to play as or against. None of those epic feeling of landing abilities like Savage Pounce or a Tyrants Jump. You just kinda "boop" them. Especially boring if you miss. You're just kinda of left wondering "what do I do now?"

Summons are pretty mindless (both in AI and in the player actually using them). Playing against them is beyond tedious, especially with 2+ on the enemy team. Running around as an alchemist with hyper inflated damage from just burning them down as I see them is also confusing. I want to focus on actual PvP, not clearing screen clutter away from my friends.

I found the shield the most fun, especially attempting to shield an ally. But it's as if the kit actively discourages using shield in such a way. With no way to close the distance or escape, shield seems to be pigeon holed into backing away from one human slowly. Sure you can eat a bola or hex with it, but I can already do that with anticipated dodge roll. And it doesn't help that the arc of her melee feels very wonky. The only class I've found myself flying right past the human with a follow up attack.

I think something needs to be done to encourage the summoner to actually enter the fray and work with teammates. Change Hellfire to a DOT that detonates for burst damage on the next successful vampire attack (yourself or a teammate). Give you direct control over the summons like the deceiver's mind control and allow the summoner to switch places with the summon by tapping the hotkey again. Just anything to raise the skill ceiling above "knowing when to melee", "Booping them from range", and "shoving screen clutter on to the humans"

Halpachino
4th Feb 2015, 23:34
My initial impressions were that she wasn't very to play as or against. None of those epic feeling of landing abilities like Savage Pounce or a Tyrants Jump. You just kinda "boop" them. Especially boring if you miss. You're just kinda of left wondering "what do I do now?"

Summons are pretty mindless (both in AI and in the player actually using them). Playing against them is beyond tedious, especially with 2+ on the enemy team. Running around as an alchemist with hyper inflated damage from just burning them down as I see them is also confusing. I want to focus on actual PvP, not clearing screen clutter away from my friends.

I found the shield the most fun, especially attempting to shield an ally. But it's as if the kit actively discourages using shield in such a way. With no way to close the distance or escape, shield seems to be pigeon holed into backing away from one human slowly. Sure you can eat a bola or hex with it, but I can already do that with anticipated dodge roll. And it doesn't help that the arc of her melee feels very wonky. The only class I've found myself flying right past the human with a follow up attack.

I think something needs to be done to encourage the summoner to actually enter the fray and work with teammates. Change Hellfire to a DOT that detonates for burst damage on the next successful vampire attack (yourself or a teammate). Give you direct control over the summons like the deceiver's mind control and allow the summoner to switch places with the summon by tapping the hotkey again. Just anything to raise the skill ceiling above "knowing when to melee", "Booping them from range", and "shoving screen clutter on to the humans"

Yes this is exactly how i feel

Vampmaster
5th Feb 2015, 00:07
I tried sneaking up on a human (possibly while it's preoccupied with summons) then activating the shield while I wait for the human to reload, then just melee. That seemed to work pretty well. I ended up using the abyssal bolt the same way as choking haze or air strike. That will probably change when things get rebalanced or the pros find a way to completely own her, but it seems good for now.

GenFeelGood
5th Feb 2015, 00:22
When it comes to using the ghouls, unless they are just a distraction to draw fire, release them as close to the enemy as possible. I'd avoid Slayer til it is tweaked, the chaos that the twins generate is far superior ATM.

Hell Strike is far superior to abyssal bolt in range, practicality, and effectiveness. Abyssal bolt takes too long to detonate and it's range is limited to the point where it dead stops to start building to detonation in mid air, which would be nice if it dealt damage to anything beneath it and still in the field; but after witnessing this spectacle happen multiple times I can confirm that it does not.

Edit
I ended up buying the bundle. Once I saw all the skins in store and that glorious banner, I just couldn't say no to any of it.

ApollosBow
5th Feb 2015, 00:40
So I hope that if anyone on the teams reading this they'll maybe consider logging the recommendation that whatever ability is given to summoner next instead of the shield is also a team benefiting one, I think the abilities that help teammates are the best ones and I hope the summoners secondary will solely be for teamplay.

Guardian1uk
5th Feb 2015, 01:00
my inital thoughts on the summoner is good though several things feel off act wrongly to expectations.
Abyssal Bolt acts more like a grenade, and personaly wonder why it's isn't set as the same mechanics/activation mechanics as the reaver grenades.
Abysall Barrier, the controls on this frankly need relooking at, presently you have to hold down the F key meaning you have to leave one of your movement keys unusable just to be able to use this ability because you have to keep the key pressed down, better option on this power would be to have it on the RMB so that players can activate it and still be able to move.
The ghouls could possibly do with a HP buff slightly.
The Slayer, again the controls would be better if we only had the "reaver pounce" aiming icon and that we only have to press the key once and then let go, instead of press and hold.
Atm with the way the controls for the summoner are, it means she has 2 powers that require her to root herself in sight twice, where as a comparable power would be the deceivers dominate mind, this is only 1 power that requires the deceiver to root itself in sight.

Ygdrasel
5th Feb 2015, 01:47
presently you have to hold down the F key meaning you have to leave one of your movement keys unusable

...You can hold down F and still operate all the movement keys. You'd only have one finger to operate W and S, mind, but then you would never have to go forward and backward at the same time anyway.

And the key-holding makes sense for the Summoner's powers. She is drawing energy and/or minions from a completely different plane of existence, after all.

NipplesOfTheNorth
5th Feb 2015, 01:51
She needs to slow way the F**k down, movement speed needs to slow down and cool downs need to be longer. Seems I'm just fighting off minions every few seconds and they act as great meat shields for close quarters, not to mention as her being one of the few vampires with ranged attacks I and others have been able to run an entire game with plenty of damage, assists and kills without taking too many hits or even dying at times. Class is far to easy to use from how I've experienced it, the cool downs are fast and she is plenty durable, makes her too fierce for me and made things kinda boring.

Ygdrasel
5th Feb 2015, 01:53
Seems I'm just fighting off minions every few seconds

Twenty seconds is the cooldown, IIRC. That's plenty.

And "plenty durable"? She's squishy like Jello if you're actually landing hits. o.O I mean, she has a barrier, I guess...

HoopleDoople
5th Feb 2015, 03:54
I gave the Summoner a moderately thorough testing today with use of all her abilities. Here's my thoughts:

Abyssal Bolt - This skill is definitely too weak at the moment - it's essentially an inferior Choking Haze. Usually the DoT gets one or two ticks before the enemy moves away and the end explosion is all but irrelevant. I'd like to see it work as follows - any humans who gets hit by the DoT takes the full remaining amount. Get hit by the first tick and that's 200 damage over time, enter halfway and it's 100 damage over time. Then when the timer expires any enemy inside the radius takes the full 200 explosive damage. This would usually result in dealing 200 damage to a few humans and render the AoE off-limits.

Hell Strike - This ability is too effective currently. The major issue is of course its lack of a tell, other than the Summoner's casting animation which Humans will rarely be in position to see. There needs to be noise on cast and a projectile that can be seen to allow for a dodge. Getting the right balance might be tricky. It might be best that if the Summoner has an accurate cast and the ability is dodged some (half?) damage still be dealt to the target.

Stalkers - This ability feels like it is in a good place. The Stalkers create some chaos but can be easily killed if the Vampires aren't coordinating their assault. The only problem I've seen with them is a bug where the Stalkers became invincible but couldn't deal damage.

Slayer - The Slayer itself seems to be about right, perhaps slightly weak. I like the trade off it offers, and was regularly switching back and forth. I do find it a bit clunky to use though - this makes it too dangerous to use at times. At the very least get rid of the click to summon - charging up should be enough.

Abyssal Barrier - I've struggled to make good use of this ability. It's OK for stalling and if you're in the right spot it can be used to retreat or advance, but the movement speed reduction makes it very hard to get away. Overall the ability is probably fine, but I'd really like an alternative to be made available ASAP. For starters I would suggest a barrier that remains where it is cast for the duration. This would be potentially better for retreats but much less useful for advances.

The overall balance seems pretty good when you're in servers where the players have some familiarity in how to play as and against the Summoner. The only time things get too out of hand is when you have massed Summoners doing nothing but spamming Hell Strike and their minions from the rooftops. On less open maps this is a very low risk strategy that can get a few cheesy kills now and again. It also makes for a very dull experience. I suspect if Hell Strike is better balanced this strategy will be far less common.

netmota
5th Feb 2015, 04:21
After reading some negative reviwes of summoner spam abilities, there is some ideas:

Slayers are killers and assassins, so the summon slayer should be turned into a underworld spirit (translucid and transparent). It as to be quick and fast like a silent killer and capable to deal 120 - 150 damage in a human target and disapear instantly after the deal target (fade out). This would be a good and usefull choice for kill humans in low healt instead of spamming it to perform a melee kill.


Stalkers are folowers but in this case they are spammers that consume human habilities and ammo. I think they could be turned to summon stalker spirits that torment nearby humans dealing some damage for short period of time. Like choking haze or infect do... But in this case should be more something similar to deceivers shroud effect consumig some healt and desapear. Or simply turn them into a quick and fast spirits that effectively deals some short damage but will desapear imediatly after the atack.

Like a summoner... she must summon the spirits from the underworld.

NipplesOfTheNorth
5th Feb 2015, 06:26
Twenty seconds is the cooldown, IIRC. That's plenty.

And "plenty durable"? She's squishy like Jello if you're actually landing hits. o.O I mean, she has a barrier, I guess...

Jello? No with the minions up she can take a human or two down alone easy, how ever I still believe in the "Class limiting" system 2 per game max, I would even push it further to limit certain classes even further as well. Not to mention she is fast, very fast, if she is meant to be someone who engages from a distance more than close up she needs a weakness of some sort, if she is going to be above par on all fields then there is no balance. 3 summoners is absurd, 3 of any class is absurd and 4 is just foolish.

Ghosthree3
5th Feb 2015, 06:35
Just gave it another go, similar experience. Two Summoners this time, with a Tyrant and a Reaver. Hellstrike poke with minions on you while getting CC'd or snuck up on by a Reaver is so chaotic it just isn't fun. I WANT to like this game again but I'm struggling real hard to do so. I don't like spammy mechanics in games, this class has made it happen.

Ygdrasel
5th Feb 2015, 07:06
She already does summon them from the underworld so that line is just silly.

Slayers deal one shot of 120-150 damage then vanish (basically a bomb). Okay...Why? Stalkers deal DPS then vanish (basically Choking Haze #2). Why?


Summons are already on a decent cooldown time on top of Ghouls being easy cannon fodder anyway.
The perceived (and in my experience, vastly exaggerated) "spamming" of them will balance out once people are done testing out the new toy and revert back to more preferred classes.

I see zero value in taking a unique thing and turning it into something far more mundane.

Given how so much of the negative feedback is based around "Three or four Summoners all spamming attacks"-style complaints, I'm starting to wonder if new class feedback could be delayed by a week or so after relevant updates. Games always unbalance in the days immediately following a new class (because everyone wants to play with the new shiny thing, tactics haven't shifted enough yet to accommodate the new class, and the new toy only comes with limited default options) so much of the "AHHH SPAM!" criticisms exist in a weird void that dissipates after a few days of adjustment.


(Note: You didn't actually mention three or four Summoners spamming stuff but I assume that's the case in question because one or two Summoners aren't nearly bad enough to call it "spamming".)

Ygdrasel
5th Feb 2015, 07:57
Jello? No with the minions up she can take a human or two down alone easy

I thought we were talking strictly about the Summoner and durability (here understood as 'ability to stay alive'). Apparently, we were talking about minions and offensive power as well.

Stalkers are certainly jello-like even if the Summoner isn't and even Slayers fall under some reasonably sustained damage. Kill them - there are numerous ways to do this quite easily, even easier if you stick to your team as you should - then kill her. Or just target the squishy Summoner and the Ghouls fall alongside her, if I recall. There's also the option of just fleeing from the Ghouls until they fade then going back in to turn their mistress into a pincushion.

Yes, she can team up with her minions for a kill. That's her advantage should she choose to press it. She also has a weakness: She dies easily under fire - no, really, try it. And her only defense against dying easily under fire - short of retreat - turns her into a snail and leaves her open to splash damage and/or direct fire from four other potential directions (above, back, both sides).

@Hoople: I don't think Abyssal Barrier is meant for retreats so much as prolonging survival under fire. I'll be snatching up alternatives as soon as possible though as I've found only little use of it.

@Ghosthree: Hellstrike needs a visual or auditory cue, as many have stated. That alone would make it a less frustrating thing. As for that minions/Reaver combo...Eh. Just don't stay too stationary and I think much of that scenario could be negated. Avoid the Reaver, minimize minion damage, etcetera. Also teamwork.

Incidentally, that scenario is not "spammy mechanics". It's teamwork. Indeed, I count exactly zero instances of spam - multiples of a single ability, ala quad-Hazing Reavers - among that scenario. (And if there was a case of multiple Hellstrikes...You should have moved after the first one. As for minions: Easy to kill if you're with your team or even alone with the right abilities.)

It also kind of sounds like you were alone, seeing as there's no mention of teammates helping you - they are all ranged classes so CC isn't a great excuse. They could have assaulted the minions or the Reaver or something if they were about, and if they weren't...Well, stay with the team.

mauvo58
5th Feb 2015, 08:20
Maybe Stalkers could attack humans and vampires. You would have to be much more careful when and where you used them.

Ygdrasel
5th Feb 2015, 08:26
Maybe Stalkers could attack humans and vampires. You would have to be much more careful when and where you used them.

Terrible idea unless the plan is to make it hilariously unreliable. Also contradictory to the lore: Why would Ghouls assault their own? Maybe if they were created from indiscriminately-scavenging Sluagh. But they're not.

They're created from Melchahim souls bonded to some non-specific spectral fauna. It stands to reason that the Melchahim soul, with an active opposition to humans (even in death), would guide the resulting hybrid creature and therefore refrain from killing its own. Even Vampire Wraiths (which we have no reason to believe these particular souls had become) never fought their own kind.

Khalith
5th Feb 2015, 08:27
So I've been reading through this thread and playing against Summoner more today and I've noticed a few things.

The summoner spam has definitely died down today as people are going back to their preferred classes a lot sooner. Now I don't think this is a sign of anything at all, not like prophet 1.0 where everyone kept playing her because she was absurdly overpowered at the time and with actual mixed teams and strategies against them ready I'm going to post my thoughts.

1. Hell Strike is still superior to Abyssal, but it's extremely random at times in the sense that in various elevated areas and the like the damage won't go through at all, it's extremely buggy a lot of the time as a result. Hell Strike is not hard to avoid if you stay mobile, the blasting zone is really small, unless you're staying stationary at all times you shouldn't get it, that makes it very useful against scouts that are so focused on their charged shots they aren't paying attention to anything else around them. This was sorely needed.

2. I still can't get Summon Slayer to work, every time I try and charge it up and click, the ability goes on cooldown but nothing pops up. I've tried it several times already and nothing happens no matter how often I use the ability.

3. In the event of two or more summoners it's really effective to just roll an alchemist, her heal and her cannon completely negate the summoner's abilities, damage her through her shield, and tear through her low hp in seconds.

4. Proper positioning and constant movement keep the Summoner's tricks from being effective, even if you eat a full hell strike, you shouldn't die or be in any real danger if your team is covering you.

5. The Summoner is really effective at breaking some of the better camps in the game when the humans are abusing them. Had a game earlier in valeholm in the manor camp, the humans were holding the upper area really well, some hell strikes and some minions forced them to retreat and reposition which allowed my team to get the kill on them and force them off that camp.

6. I will assert again that I believe the Summoner is fine, Hell Strike could possibly use a more visual/audio cue but I found myself constantly not getting hit by her moves by just constantly staying mobile at where ever my human team were set up, I also noticed the beams appearing nearby which gave me the clue to roll out of the way.

I don't see how anyone is having trouble dealing with the Summoner or crying OP when she's really not that bad, her strengths/weaknesses have her pretty much in line with the rest of the classes, she has some aoe on a relatively long cd, her minions drop to a single alchemist that can swat them aside with ease, her defensive cd is weak and doesn't do anything against the human's superior aoe, her melee swings are weaker than the other vampires, and her hp is low even with the +hp perk which isn't really optimal for her in my opinion. But she's good at breaking camps, can initiate but still needs to get in and melee to truly be effective, and perhaps most importantly of all she can actually 1v1 scouts and hunters effectively since the minions can soak their CC and shots when the other vamps would be forced to retreat.

I do believe that having one summoner is an effective tactic if the humans have a really strong camp, otherwise you're better off playing the other classes that have better offense, mobility, and defense. Not that I believe the Summoner to be weak, rather I believe she is a situational class.

--Ram--
5th Feb 2015, 08:37
I think it would be great if hellstrike fits a niche and excels as a scout camp breaker, and burst combos when combined with stuns, rather than an ability to hide and spam every-time it's up from out of reach/line of sight. My frustrations have certainly died down as well since I am not seeing game after game of snorefest rooftop warrior stacks at the moment. The game actually feels like Nosgoth to me again when there are only 1-2 summoners.

Ygdrasel
5th Feb 2015, 08:37
2. I still can't get Summon Slayer to work, every time I try and charge it up and click, the ability goes on cooldown but nothing pops up. I've tried it several times already and nothing happens no matter how often I use the ability.

Had that happen a few times. Bugs will be bugs, I suppose.


On Summon Slayer: I'm not a huge fan of the clicking requirement. Reaver's Pounce made sense: LMB is melee and the Pounce does end in vicious clawing. Here, it just makes things sort of cumbersome. A charge-and-release would just make more sense here.

I love her use as a camp breaker though. Looking at you, Sommerdamm camp.

WombTickler
5th Feb 2015, 08:39
Just gave it another go, similar experience. Two Summoners this time, with a Tyrant and a Reaver. Hellstrike poke with minions on you while getting CC'd or snuck up on by a Reaver is so chaotic it just isn't fun. I WANT to like this game again but I'm struggling real hard to do so. I don't like spammy mechanics in games, this class has made it happen.

I was in these games and can certainly agree with everything you have said in this thread. I'd also like to add that games rarely reach the 30 kill mark when summoner's are in play, this just isn't fun.

Having them on your team can be good for winning, but it also sucks if you play any other class, since summoner's like to stay at range and leave you to initiate alone.

I really dislike having the two pets take bola's/hex shots etc. I feel that her shield is meant to be that clutch defensive mechanism, not some spammy pets that fill your screen every few seconds.

Perhaps hellstrike should have much shorter range? So people use it in combat, and not from the safety of rooftops across the map. The orb should be the long range ability since it is lowish damage/area denial that requires some aiming.

--Ram--
5th Feb 2015, 08:43
On Summon Slayer: I'm not a huge fan of the clicking requirement. Reaver's Pounce made sense: LMB is melee and the Pounce does end in vicious clawing. Here, it just makes things sort of cumbersome. A charge-and-release would just make more sense here.


This is the primary reason I pick the little dudes rather than the slayer. I like the option to pop it quickly and from out of line of sight if desired. The slayer almost requires you to take hits to the face to use it, or only target it when no one is looking at you. Thus it is easier to summon the slayer from further away, but doing so means that it is largely wasted due to travel time. A friend of mine suggested that it would be good if the slayer appeared next to the target, and I am inclined to agree. This might be a worthy trade off for it being more cumbersome to activate.


I was in these games and can certainly agree with everything you have said in this thread. I'd also like to add that games rarely reach the 30 kill mark when summoner's are in play, this just isn't fun.

Yep, extended slow games aren't fun. Games almost never fail to reach 30 kills when summoners aren't involved. I Will never forget the lameness of finishing a round at 7-2.



Perhaps hellstrike should have much shorter range? So people use it in combat, and not from the safety of rooftops across the map. The orb should be the long range ability since it is lowish damage/area denial that requires some aiming.

I was thinking along a similar line, wondering whether it could instead scale in damage with range, so a closer riskier shot is powerful, while max range behind cover spam is ineffective. This may also encourage the summoner to get into the fray afterwards since they would be more likely to get close. It would also mean that high damage shots could be done but perhaps only when a team engagement occurs with sufficient disruption and distraction.

Ygdrasel
5th Feb 2015, 08:43
some spammy pets that fill your screen every few seconds.

Okay, really. Does everyone here have some new warped definition of "few"? That's like...Five seconds, tops. Ghouls are not filling your screen every five seconds.

Though I wasn't aware they could take bolas...Simple fix though: Aim at the Summoner. Summoned Ghouls aren't materialized right in front of her, IIRC.


This is the primary reason I pick the little dudes rather than the slayer. I like the option to pop it quickly and from out of line of sight if desired. The slayer almost requires you to take hits to the face to use it, or only target it when no one is looking at you. Thus it is easier to summon the slayer from further away, but doing so means that it is largely wasted due to travel time. A friend of mine suggested that it would be good if the slayer appeared next to the target, and I am inclined to agree. This might be a worthy trade off for it being more cumbersome to activate.

I don't mind having to be out in the open. The targeting and charging mechanic isn't my issue. It's just specifically the need to click the melee button to unleash them.

As it is: Target. Charge. Melee (for a decidedly non-melee ability)...?

As it should be: Target. Charge. Release button.

Just feels cumbersome in action.

ApollosBow
5th Feb 2015, 09:04
All im seeing here is people upset by being killed by the new class.....I keep hearing people say the summoner is op, yet when i was losing the other day i kicked in gear and chose sentinel (my main) ....i decimated the team, not always the case. But nobody complained about the range of the throw from my airstrike, how quick i could land after dropping them and puncture them to death. The opposite team just complained about my teammates (with half my score and kills) that picked the summoner. I hate the scout but i dont shout op op op every time i get killed by one.

Its a new class, lots of people are picking it, therefore your going to get killed by it a little bit more for the next few days. ^someone above commented about her movement speed, if its not a placebo then i like it anyway because given her smaller frame I do think it would make sense that shes a tiny bit faster, but tbh i haven't noticed that...in regard to Hellstrikes, I don't really see the problem on my end, the summoner has to show herself to land those, unless your in a bad spot, try to keep moving even if you hold up in the same area. Also one last thing, if faced with little ghouls don't bother running, the damage they take off is minimal, kill them right away cause there really weak. Also im finding the alchemist flamethrower or poison cloud are the best defense to ghouls teaming with vamps.

ApollosBow
5th Feb 2015, 09:24
cant wait till next event...i hate recharging, leaves me broke. I just care about the effect, unless its a ability with 10% wall climb and minimal cons.

ApollosBow
5th Feb 2015, 09:40
They have a timer, if the human cant dispatch them i don't think it should be built in better to help them more. Interesting brainstorming though.

--Ram--
5th Feb 2015, 09:55
All im seeing here is people upset by being killed by the new class.....I keep hearing people say the summoner is op, yet when i was losing the other day i kicked in gear and chose sentinel (my main) ....i decimated the team, not always the case. But nobody complained about the range of the throw from my airstrike, how quick i could land after dropping them and puncture them to death. The opposite team just complained about my teammates (with half my score and kills) that picked the summoner. I hate the scout but i dont shout op op op every time i get killed by one.

Its a new class, lots of people are picking it, therefore your going to get killed by it a little bit more for the next few days. ^someone above commented about her movement speed, if its not a placebo then i like it anyway because given her smaller frame I do think it would make sense that shes a tiny bit faster, but tbh i haven't noticed that...in regard to Hellstrikes, I don't really see the problem on my end, the summoner has to show herself to land those, unless your in a bad spot, try to keep moving even if you hold up in the same area. Also one last thing, if faced with little ghouls don't bother running, the damage they take off is minimal, kill them right away cause there really weak. Also im finding the alchemist flamethrower or poison cloud are the best defense to ghouls teaming with vamps.

Many of these posts to me are about the way summoner fits into the game and the change in pace and the way rounds feel. I don't think there is too much non-constructive whining here but there is always going to be some.

Sasha_Vykos
5th Feb 2015, 09:59
All im seeing here is people upset by being killed by the new class.....I keep hearing people say the summoner is op, yet when i was losing the other day i kicked in gear and chose sentinel (my main) ....i decimated the team, not always the case. But nobody complained about the range of the throw from my airstrike, how quick i could land after dropping them and puncture them to death. The opposite team just complained about my teammates (with half my score and kills) that picked the summoner. I hate the scout but i dont shout op op op every time i get killed by one.

Its a new class, lots of people are picking it, therefore your going to get killed by it a little bit more for the next few days. ^someone above commented about her movement speed, if its not a placebo then i like it anyway because given her smaller frame I do think it would make sense that shes a tiny bit faster, but tbh i haven't noticed that...in regard to Hellstrikes, I don't really see the problem on my end, the summoner has to show herself to land those, unless your in a bad spot, try to keep moving even if you hold up in the same area. Also one last thing, if faced with little ghouls don't bother running, the damage they take off is minimal, kill them right away cause there really weak. Also im finding the alchemist flamethrower or poison cloud are the best defense to ghouls teaming with vamps.

I don't think that the problem is to be killed by this class. Who cares about it? I don't think that she is OP as well.
The problem is, in my opinion and only judging by these few days, that with summoner the game is often so slow, more boring and less tactical. There is just a big chaos in the battles.. I simply prefer a more dinamic and "precise" play rather than a big mess, in which the summoners don't even attack melee most of the time.
In most games I've played vs summoner we never arrived to 30 kills. I don't like the situation with this new class and I hope things will get better, maybe the players will adapt.

Sorrowgate
5th Feb 2015, 10:01
By first impressions she's pretty fun to play, quickly jumped to second on my vampire list. Sometimes she feels a little too safe (though it's mostly down to one kit) but I like how she shakes up the game.

Abyssal Bolt - Looks awesome, love the idea, but it feels really weak. It's like a worse choking haze because the first tick doesn't guarantee a sizeable portion of damage. What if it did damage twice, once upon arrival and once upon detonation?

Hell Strike - Nice, to me it seemed to be a clear victor for the special skill slot, may be a little too safe. It hasn't been hard to bombard humans with it for 400 every cooldown and I think it's down to how it explodes on impact without marking where it will land. If you're facing away you don't see it coming and the sound doesn't seem too clear. Could do with a damage nerf, at least to make Abyssal Bolt have an edge over it.

Stalkers - Awesome, little odd in pathing occasionally but I like the way the summons have been balanced. They die very easily if you just try to use them from safety but are great friends in the thick of battle (especially when you summon them and block bolas). The twins seem to be slightly better for ease of use (pretty safe if you are popping them from behind cover) and more chaos.

The other one - I like it but it's been the worse for pathing and it's a little awkward to use. I tend to jump back and forth between summons but I feel like I get more out of the stalkers (both in terms of damage and chaos). Seem it caught on corners a few times as it's main target is behind a wall or something.

Abyssal Wall - Great skill, seems a bit picky with explosives though. Sometimes it blocks them (I actually threw a grenade at a summoner's wall expecting it to bounce off to explode at her feet as the wall goes down, instead it exploded on contact and did nothing to the summoner) but it seems to allow alchemists do damage you through it.


Playing against summoner: people that are just trying her out seem to play the safe game and just try to take advantage of Abyssal Bolt or Hell Strike while sending minions to their doom, so I've taken to playing their game as a Scout. I normally use Swiftbow but picking on them for (typically) having to move out of cover to throw their special has been pretty nice. Volley ain't bad for the pets either. Summoners seem pretty vulnerable so knives can often make sure they die if they decide to join the fight. Prophet's been good too, decent poking and health returned by killing the minions, gotta be careful with Hex Shot though.

TheVagabond
5th Feb 2015, 10:25
After reading some negative reviwes of summoner spam abilities, there is some ideas:

Slayers are killers and assassins, so the summon slayer should be turned into a underworld spirit (translucid and transparent). It as to be quick and fast like a silent killer and capable to deal 120 - 150 damage in a human target and disapear instantly after the deal target (fade out). This would be a good and usefull choice for kill humans in low healt instead of spamming it to perform a melee kill.


Stalkers are folowers but in this case they are spammers that consume human habilities and ammo. I think they could be turned to summon stalker spirits that torment nearby humans dealing some damage for short period of time. Like choking haze or infect do... But in this case should be more something similar to deceivers shroud effect consumig some healt and desapear. Or simply turn them into a quick and fast spirits that effectively deals some short damage but will desapear imediatly after the atack.

Like a summoner... she must summon the spirits from the underworld.

Hello,

I find myself agreeing with you. It seems very out of line with other abilities. Slayers should perform more like a Hunter's Grenade or a Sentinel's Airstrike; the only difference being that the Summoner's Slayer would be pretty much heat-seeking; 500 damage if they make it to their target alive. The Stalkers should perform like any other AoE, but with the prospect of doing more damage; a few winged nasties flying around a volley sized area, doing 250 damage every time they come in contact with an enemy, they stay alive until they are killed or the user creates stalkers elsewhere.

This keeps them unique, but in line.

Just my two cents,
Michael

WombTickler
5th Feb 2015, 11:43
Okay, really. Does everyone here have some new warped definition of "few"? That's like...Five seconds, tops. Ghouls are not filling your screen every five seconds.

Though I wasn't aware they could take bolas...Simple fix though: Aim at the Summoner. Summoned Ghouls aren't materialized right in front of her, IIRC.

They have an 8 second duration, 20 second cooldown. They are up almost 50% of the time, then add on extra summoners and they are all over the place.

Also the thing is you cannot aim at the summoner since they are both in the way?

SilentVirtue
5th Feb 2015, 14:39
Summoner stacking is currently a problem, and its only a problem while you allow it to be effective, make it not work and people wont do it

Stop trying to play a static scout against hell fires, its not going to work out, instead, invest in draining curse for the prophet and laugh as the summoners HEAL you instead of damage.

when i see a 4 stack of summoners and people are trying to play scout against it... and them all crying about how OP summoner is...

there is a counter, it means not camping, and using a class that hasn't been used in a while.

HOWEVER

The current iteration of hell strike is boring as hell when stacked, please make the ability cost HP to reduce the spammability of it.

Its so boring that its a coin toss of whether i pull out prohpet and try to teach the summoner stack a long and painful lesson, or i just outright quit and go play another game for 20 mins.

TL;DR

Spamming hell strike is a boring game play mechanic and needs to have a detonation time, or cost HP. but it can be countered (somewhat)

BuggedForum
5th Feb 2015, 15:42
Well the only problem with hellfire for me is that i cant see where it lands, there are no area markers on the ground, thats why running around is the only way to avoid that(if im not mistaken it doesn't have clear approaching sound either) I mean when, for example, a sentinel fires a bomb i can clearly hear a hurling sound, then in many cases im able to predict where it lands to roll out of full damage area. But sometimes its a little bit hard with hellfire. So basically adding may be a more clear sound of that skill would be ok. Still not that big deal for me.

Khalith
5th Feb 2015, 15:56
Also the thing is you cannot aim at the summoner since they are both in the way?

Switch to alchemist, problem solved.

Duffie7
5th Feb 2015, 16:12
I'm usually a fan of shaking up the meta, but I'm not a fan of the current pace of the game.

And it seems I'm not the only one, many of my friends are making up excuses to not to play recently. Which is rather upsetting, as Nosgoth was a nightly tradition and one of the only games that everyone enjoyed.

netmota
5th Feb 2015, 16:15
Well... basicaly my ideia is that these abilities could be more usefull and more imediate reaction like hit and disapear instead of beeing creatures spamming humans. Has to be something aproach to the other class abilities but in someway for especific use. Stalkers just to iniciate damage like airstrike infect haze... And slayer to take a porcion of healt more considerable in determined target for ocasionaly be killed or simple get some damage. The time reaction and the effective should be more presisely instead of creatures that only serves to make caos distract and confuse humans and in most cases an ability whithout any damage.

Nordikc
5th Feb 2015, 16:25
I for one am glad for this. I hope it cuts down on the scout spam. At least 3/4 games I play have at least 2 scouts if not more. I would love a little more variety.

PencileyePirate
5th Feb 2015, 16:26
After reading some negative reviwes of summoner spam abilities, there is some ideas:

Slayers are killers and assassins, so the summon slayer should be turned into a underworld spirit (translucid and transparent). It as to be quick and fast like a silent killer and capable to deal 120 - 150 damage in a human target and disapear instantly after the deal target (fade out). This would be a good and usefull choice for kill humans in low healt instead of spamming it to perform a melee kill.

Stalkers are folowers but in this case they are spammers that consume human habilities and ammo. I think they could be turned to summon stalker spirits that torment nearby humans dealing some damage for short period of time. Like choking haze or infect do... But in this case should be more something similar to deceivers shroud effect consumig some healt and desapear. Or simply turn them into a quick and fast spirits that effectively deals some short damage but will desapear imediatly after the atack.

Like a summoner... she must summon the spirits from the underworld.

I disagree with this. Damages need to be kept low because the purposes of the ghouls is to use them as a distraction. Also if they appear/disappear too quickly it will be difficult to counter from the human side.

Btw she summons the native inhabitants of a "demon realm" (LOK lore), not spirits from the underworld.

netmota
5th Feb 2015, 16:42
Hellstrike costing hp is making the class complectly useless... The hellstrike is the only ability that deals real effetive and usefull damage... Turn it to cost hp is turning the class unplayable... Is the same like airstrike costing hp... Or reducing puncture damage to 200... So pll stop making ideas to ruin the classes and make them useless. With hellstrike limited to cost hp or anyother think what you gonna make whit it? Go melee? Even the class like it is now its is hard to take 10k damage... I imagine limiting the class could result in a match with less than 5k damage.... The only think that makes all sence with hellstrike is a visual cicular refecence between the moment of releasing hellstike and area impact that allows humans to dodge the atack.

Duffie7
5th Feb 2015, 16:42
The summoner is entirely counterable, but the kit is unfun to play with and against.

Hellfire spam has minimal risk. It looks cool, but isnt nearly as fun/challenging as savage pounce or the tyrant jump. The lack of risk is also counter productive to teamwork. The other vampire abilities require the assistance of other classes to be used optimally.

Summons are mindless to use and mindless to play against. They also require little risk and just clutter the human's focus.

Shield is a great ability when used with a team. But the summoner's kit encourages them to play on the fringes of the fight. This mixed with no way to enter or exit a fight makes it unfeasible to use well.

So I dont think stacking is the problem, though it makes it worse. There's just not a lot of skill or risk involved and the changes it brings to the meta are welcome, but are painful for both sides in their current form.

ApollosBow
5th Feb 2015, 16:52
I don't think that the problem is to be killed by this class. Who cares about it? I don't think that she is OP as well.
The problem is, in my opinion and only judging by these few days, that with summoner the game is often so slow, more boring and less tactical. There is just a big chaos in the battles.. I simply prefer a more dinamic and "precise" play rather than a big mess, in which the summoners don't even attack melee most of the time.
In most games I've played vs summoner we never arrived to 30 kills. I don't like the situation with this new class and I hope things will get better, maybe the players will adapt.

that's probably down to the team, and if it was 4 summoners then no wonder.

ApollosBow
5th Feb 2015, 17:00
I think this whole summoner thing could be fixed with class restrictions, no more than 2 classes per team (force people to play as different classes and realize they counter others), maybe drop Hellstrike down to 375 aswell to satisfy the masses, a wide range of bad examples from the class are taken from games where there way to many summoners spamming the abilities, class restrictions and a mini-nerf would fix this and hopefully end the whining in game......then everyone can get back to shouting OP about something else until shield bearer. I still believe and have seen examples that a good human team controls the map and outweighs the Vamps in terms of power, 4v4 anyways (cant speak for 5v5 private games).

Ygdrasel
5th Feb 2015, 17:26
They have an 8 second duration, 20 second cooldown. They are up almost 50% of the time, then add on extra summoners and they are all over the place.

Also the thing is you cannot aim at the summoner since they are both in the way?

So get them out of the way. They're stupidly easy to kill. Kill them.

Calderweiss
5th Feb 2015, 18:59
My problem with Summoner is not fighting against them. I have no problem with that.

My problem is when two or more of them are on MY team.
A lot of players don't understand that Summoner's full effectiveness also involves closing the distance and cleaning up at melee range, and thus are very afraid of engaging in close combat, even though they have a shield and damage blocking minions that also sort of hurt.

If they are not high level players, it is almost guaranteed that they will not follow up on smoke bombs, charges, or just about anything. A match with two summoners or more is basically a snore fest.

uNborn-
5th Feb 2015, 21:09
Hey there, just thought I'd weigh in my two cents now after having a few days to play as the Summoner. All of this feedback is coming from a High level competitive standpoint.

First off I've seen threads complaining about the hellstrike ability and the melee attack: having a hard time hitting it. I honestly think the design was really good on this class.

-Hellstrike is her #1 damage ability and from what I can see does not need a nerf. Maybe more of a sound que though from what direction its coming from. I currently have little problems dodging it. Not to mention in high level competition its very rare that humans are grouped up so the damage and mechanic is completely fine imo.

-The Melee attack is shorter, I've seen people complaining that they arent hitting the target. Thats because you simply missed. All the other vamps have more of a follow through on theyre attacks and after getting used to it I find it actually extremely useful for doing 180 melee attacks extreme close range. Don't change this. Its the only variation in melee on the vamp side and I think it helps balance her overall.

Shield is great, Another kudos to the design team on the duration and pretty much everything about it.

-Abysmal Bolt as is, is completely and utterly abysmal(see what I did there :P) I love the throw mechanic, but the damage dealt, and the constant sticking on structures isn't worth it.

-The lil dude minions or whatever are also completely fine and almost necessary for her to able to get in and do damage. The bigger ones need some pathway tweaking still before I can even evaluate it. They tend to just sit there and wander aimlessly.

I've also seen people asking for an escape ability for her on here, I respectively disagree. She is a caster class, and was not designed to be iniatiating herself outside of her ranged abiliies. I think the damage she does from a distance + summons and melee attacks for the all in afterwards are completely fine. If she could escape easily that would throw balance off.

The roof camping that people are complaining about is pretty much done. The first day when everyone was trying her out it was a tad annoying but its not effective, just as roof camping with any other class is. That has since passed and although people are still messing with her the majority of these "troll teams" are easily beaten and usually end up leaving the game.

Suggestions for future abilities.

Snare- One thing I think would be good would be a projectile cast that ensnares humans for a few seconds. This would be extremely useful in ESL competitive play to isolate spread out human teams and would add a very interesting mechanic and strategy as well.


Thats basically all I have for the moment. Feel free to weigh in your thoughts. Overall I am pretty happy with her launch balance over all and sincerely hope she doesnt get over nerfed because of pubbie complaints. Kudos to the design team. Cheers.

netmota
5th Feb 2015, 22:09
good feedback here

Cristari
5th Feb 2015, 22:18
Firstly I despise anyone starting off their threads by stating "from a competitive point of view" I guess the rest of us are just faffing around while you lot in the upper echelons sneer down at us!

Secondly I agree with most of what you say however I am not in any competitive ESL team and even I can see this so yeah whatever!

Thirdly:

Snare- One thing I think would be good would be a projectile cast that ensnares humans for a few seconds. This would be extremely useful in ESL competitive play to isolate spread out human teams and would add a very interesting mechanic and strategy as well.

Totally disagree and think this would break the game. It's pretty hard for most humans to get away from Vampires at the best of times reducing their ability to more makes it far far too easy for Vampires to get a kill. No this is a very very bad suggestion and you are supposedly a ESL player?

Ghosthree3
5th Feb 2015, 22:29
Firstly I despise anyone starting off their threads by stating "from a competitive point of view" I guess the rest of us are just faffing around while you lot in the upper echelons sneer down at us!
It depends, if they are a highly skilled/ranked team then it DOES make a difference and should be noted.

I do not know the scene here so don't know if they are or not. But do not automatically dismiss anything just because that was said. I have always and will always be of the mindset that a game should be balanced around the highest level of gameplay, you need the high end teams to help you to do this.

Nordikc
5th Feb 2015, 22:30
Comp nosgoth plays different than public nosgoth. I don't think it is sneering, but that the perspective is different.

Aggggh
5th Feb 2015, 22:36
It depends, if they are a highly skilled/ranked team then it DOES make a difference and should be noted.

I do not know the scene here so don't know if they are or not. But do not automatically dismiss anything just because that was said. I have always and will always be of the mindset that a game should be balanced around the highest level of gameplay, you need the high end teams to help you to do this.

The problem is that small games like this generally don't the kind of comp scene where just being part of it is enough to lend you much credibility.

Sanguise23
5th Feb 2015, 22:52
nice post unborn

ApollosBow
5th Feb 2015, 23:03
Good feedback, playing earlier i tried to keep an eye out for the Hellstrike and realized that there is an audio cue to help, simply dodging upon hearing this gives me a 50/50 chance of going the right way out of the radius.

Disagree with snare idea, this sounds more like evolved Zephonim tactic. Consider keeping whatever ability comes next a teamplay one much like the shield, it can be used by itself, but taking advantage more requires teamplay

Razaiim
5th Feb 2015, 23:11
My only disagreement unborn are the complaints about issues hitting with melee. In my experience, and from the impressions of other players in game, The summoner and deceiver have been having extreme issues with fully passing through other players (center of mass through center of mass) with out doing damage, on standard and charged attacks. I'd love to show you this with some recording software but I don't have any on my computer.

It's not lag or FPS issue as there is no-one warping or rebounding or even frame hitches, there's no abilities involved, and it occurs most frequently Deceiver and now Summoner, the Tyrant in the odd corner, and I haven't experienced anything comparable on Reaver/Sentinel since CB launch.

TendrilSavant
5th Feb 2015, 23:23
It depends, if they are a highly skilled/ranked team then it DOES make a difference and should be noted.
To a degree, but the opinions and observation of a high level player shouldn't be valued higher than the casual player.


I have always and will always be of the mindset that a game should be balanced around the highest level of gameplay, you need the high end teams to help you to do this.
This is a really bad way to balance a game. Not only do you run the risk of making the game inaccessible to all but the most hardcore, you also run the risk of making the game very stale and repetitive because you already decided how high end play should look. Game designing an balancing is an ongoing process.

As for the feedback, you're right that Summoner should not have an escape mechanic; but I also disagree that a "snare" ability would work. Essentially adding a Bola to a vampire would be really bad for balance in my opinion. Abilities that Stun or Disable that the vampires have have always put you in combat range, and it should stay that way. If you feel that vampires need access to a Bola, then I think humans being too strong is the problem, not vampires being too weak.

AriocM
5th Feb 2015, 23:36
I love how chatty the summoner is. It really does give her much more personality than the often quiet Tyrant and Reaver who seem to only speak at the beginning of a match. Her pleading to Melchahi, her references to the dry lands. They really do give her a ton of personality I'd love to see added to the other vampires. When the characters comment, or make quips it really helps bring them to life for me and gives me a glimpse of their personalities.

I notice there's no Prefix option for Summoner or User Interface. I'd still love to see a check box to filter out items permanently purchased from the store lists.

uNborn-
5th Feb 2015, 23:43
Firstly I despise anyone starting off their threads by stating "from a competitive point of view" I guess the rest of us are just faffing around while you lot in the upper echelons sneer down at us!

Secondly I agree with most of what you say however I am not in any competitive ESL team and even I can see this so yeah whatever!

Thirdly:


Totally disagree and think this would break the game. It's pretty hard for most humans to get away from Vampires at the best of times reducing their ability to more makes it far far too easy for Vampires to get a kill. No this is a very very bad suggestion and you are supposedly a ESL player?


I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings/ego. Yes I am a ESL player. Undefeated actually.

Anyway I appreciate any counterpoints to my posts guys, by saying this is coming from a high level competitive perspective, I'm not "Lording"" or something. I'm just simply stating how it affects gameplay at that level. This game is much different there than it is in pubs.

As far as the Snare thing It was just a suggestion or something they could try, considering how bad mind control is and how OP humans are at high level I don't see this being that bad.

AriocM
5th Feb 2015, 23:47
yeah the bonuses are random. I'm still trying to unlock the last level of my mysterious gun and it's taking foreeeeeeeever. I'm going to be profile level 30 before this gun fully unlocks. And I got it when I was level 4.

Screwby-Dew
6th Feb 2015, 00:15
@Cristari Are you always that salty ? GG

- Abyssal Bolt : I would like to see a buff damage, like 450 (125/s + 200 dmg), it's pretty easy to dodge and got a throw limit range, if used properly the award should be greater.

- Hell Strike : At the moment I think it's too powerful and a nerf to 350 dmg would be nice, but with the incoming audio fix it's probably too early to tell if this is necessary.


There is an audio issue at the moment with the Summoner's Hell Strike, it will be fixed in an update. Right now it's not working correctly on the Human side, so it'll be why it feels like there's no warning you're about to get hit.

- Melee Attacks : It's so weird I really feel like I can't hit with her, I'm certainly not used to it to be efficient enough.

- Shield : It'd be great if it was a bit wider in my opinion.

- Summons : I agree with uNborn.


Suggestions, I haven't really think through about them, they might be completely stupid :

- Special ability : A throwing projectile such as Abyssal Bolt that would suck up humans in it center, it wouldn't do as much damage as Abyssal Bolt / Hell Strike.

- Secondary ability (shield) : A sort of dome that the summoner casts at her feet, humans and vampires could walk through it (both way in and out) but repels projectiles/bullets/arrows. If the summoner is killed or get out of the dome's AoE then it disappears, or/and it would got a damage threshold.

Ghosthree3
6th Feb 2015, 01:54
Well. I found out why not as many players are agreeing that playing against the Summoner is mind-numbingly painful as I would expect.

This time I tried the West servers. Much, much, more fun. Played a couple of rounds so far, one had double summoners with nice other class picks. The rounds as humans were tediously slow, but at least I didn't feel like I was growing a new type of cancer every minute. The Summoners didn't seem to do much and were easy enough to deal with/ignore. Guess most of the Summoners on OCE are just pro or something.

--Ram--
6th Feb 2015, 06:12
Good post. Have yet to really get enough games to have a good feel for her melee so can't comment on that, but otherwise pretty spot on.

Cristari dude, don't take everything in life to heart. I can't remember the last time I saw you post and not whine about one thing or another.

Thamior2311
6th Feb 2015, 08:39
Played a summoner a bit and noticed that basic ability Abyssal Bolt underperforms. It is very easy for humans to run away from it and take a minicule damage in the process. I'm speaking not from personal experience of throwing it myself but pretty much everybody I played with/against since the patch. I have 2 suggestions off the top of my head:
1. Redistribute damage from the main blow to DOT before explosion (not suggesting just adding to the DOT as it may make it OP).
2. Make some kind of gravity pull, so it would be a bit tougher to get away from the bolt, actually a snare.
Feel free to suggest other ways. :)

netmota
7th Feb 2015, 02:42
I would like to see an ability for summoner or other class that can cast blood from humans for self-healt. Once we have sacrifice whith prophet... We could have the other face of coin to vampires too.

An hability that i think great for her in close combate instead of stalkers... is a strike jump summoning a ray of dark energy and take 300-350 dmg. Somethink similar to sweeping kick... But a litle jump

autonoe
7th Feb 2015, 06:18
After playing with and against the summoner for a few days I have noticed a few things about the class. The main one that I would like to address in this post is the pets for the summoner. These pets are really annoying in a strange way. They don't do enough damage to force you to kill them and they tend to really bloat the humans damage just from getting the extra damage on the pets. The most annoying thing about these pets IMO however is that they can body block the summoner from taking any abilities or damage from the humans. A summoner can just use his two pets and run into a human who can't use their bola/hex/whatever on the summoner just because it will hit the pets. I suggest to make the pets not targetable by abilities. This would still allow summoners to use their pets to block damage but they can't get away with everything just because they have a few pets in front of them.

In summary: It would be nice if the summoner pets can't be affected by human abilities but get a damage buff

--Ram--
7th Feb 2015, 06:23
What you are suggesting would eliminate the entire point of the summons. Protecting against cc and mitigating some damage is their primary purpose and strength. Without this they would just be the worst damage ability in the game. Being able to hex shot a summoner through the pets would make the summoner absolute garbage in melee combat.

ApollosBow
7th Feb 2015, 06:26
I already think the Pets are pretty bad, serving as a decoy 90% of the time, then netting that 1 strike lucky kill...Doing this would make them even worse, no thanks :thud:

autonoe
7th Feb 2015, 06:49
I think if they do decide to not let them be affected by abilities maybe they can get a damage buff so they aren't completely worthless. Right now they do basically no damage and I find myself many times just ignoring them even if they are attacking me. If their damage is buffed but they can't be targeted by abilities I feel that would allow them to remain viable but it would reduce how annoying they are.

GenFeelGood
7th Feb 2015, 07:11
Certain abilities are just better against certain classes.

Some abilities are inferior against the ghouls, 1 vs 1 style abilities like bola or hex shot; but others are incredibly effective like firewall, drain curse, or turret. This change won't necessarily make things better for the 1st type of abilities (hex shot, bola, knives); but it will make things worse for humans in general because then you can only burn out your ammo to kill the ghouls or run away til they time out, both options make you even more vulnerable to the vampires.

autonoe
7th Feb 2015, 07:19
But the pets are at a point currently where they don't do enough damage to make you use firewall or any aoe ability to deal with them. They seem to just be annoying and in the way. I feel it would be better if they weren't as annoying but the humans actually had to deal with them.

danielhn147
7th Feb 2015, 17:27
The summoner. A new vampire class that has literally 2 unlockable abilities.
So, I came up with some ideas, because for some reason I keep coming up with ideas.

Rewind (Secondary ability): Upon activation, teleports the summoner to where she was 3 seconds ago. The teleport will be in a shadow step (reaver's ability) fashion. The teleport will happen instantly, and the casting time will only happen once the teleport is done.

Summon Bahamut (Primary Ability): Summons bahamut to carry the summoner with his wings. The summoner will be able to fly the same way as a sentinal till the summon runs off. While flying, the summoner will be able to use her regular attack as well as her special attack. Upon landing on the ground, the bahamut will release a stunning and damaging shockwave and will fly away.

Leave your feedback below!
Thanks for reading!

GenFeelGood
7th Feb 2015, 17:38
Rewind reminds me of what the Lord High Marshal could do in the Chronicles of Riddick. There is potential to this one. You activate it from a safe spot (creating the end stage of the ability), you then jump in and do your damage, and then get pulled back to the safe point once the timer runs out. Honestly though, this sounds like something for the Reaver.

As for Bahamut, I don't think I am alone in believing that the Razielim should be the only ones to own the sky.

Vampmaster
7th Feb 2015, 17:41
Bahamut? This isn't a Final Fantasy game!

-Konf-
7th Feb 2015, 18:09
I like the idea of [Rewind], even thought there was a suggestion made for a very similar ability for Deceivers (where he creates a clone that he is able to teleport to within certain time frame, but clone can be killed to deny the teleport). However, I think that the ability deserves to have its casting animation before the teleport.

Suggested this in the Summoner Update thread, but since there's now a dedicated one thought I'd bring it across:

[Shadow Bulwark] - [F] - Secondary Ability: Create a magical barrier on the ground that blocks incoming projectiles. It could be placed tactically in combat to isolate targets and can be a great support skill for Vampires that requires clever use. It would have a certain damage threshold of course so that Humans can bring it down instead of having to run through it in order to help their teammates.

netmota
7th Feb 2015, 18:26
i like he idea of teleporting... or fast travel between an open portal. would be very useful

TheDreamcrusher
7th Feb 2015, 18:34
I'm not trying to discourage anyone from offering ideas, but with Abyssal Shield already in the game I get the feeling that the summoner isn't going to get any easy escape moves. I may be wrong but it's likely she's going to have another sort of utility ability in the secondary slot. I am interested to see if she actually gets a better escape move or another utility one like the shield.

GenFeelGood
7th Feb 2015, 19:19
I'd prefer more styles of ghouls, like one that launches projectiles when in range or goes kamikaze by detonating once they reach the humans; and a defensive ghoul that works to shield the Summoner from damage.

TheDreamcrusher
7th Feb 2015, 19:24
I'd prefer more styles of ghouls, like one that launches projectiles when in range or goes kamikaze by detonating once they reach the humans; and a defensive ghoul that works to shield the Summoner from damage.

I like the sound of a detonating ghoul! That would make things interesting, lol. Have to kill it from a distance.

ApollosBow
7th Feb 2015, 19:53
I think a team benefiting ability would be good, maybe something offensive to go against the grain of what the shield is, like a spell to increase speed of another vamp or damage, but that seems to obvious. Id like to keep the shield slot for team play though.

netmota
8th Feb 2015, 03:55
I think the purpose of the pets are good... Is like deceiver illusions... You dispend a bola on illusions too... So theres no diference... And summoner needs the pets that way to protect themself and atack at the same time... So the porpose are well.

The use of pets are very fun and useful... For example wen you want to kill an isolated human, or wen i am in troubles and want to get out... Take the spirits...

Ygdrasel
8th Feb 2015, 15:50
The summoner. A new vampire class that has literally 2 unlockable abilities.
So, I came up with some ideas, because for some reason I keep coming up with ideas.

Rewind (Secondary ability): Upon activation, teleports the summoner to where she was 3 seconds ago. The teleport will be in a shadow step (reaver's ability) fashion. The teleport will happen instantly, and the casting time will only happen once the teleport is done.

Summon Bahamut (Primary Ability): Summons bahamut to carry the summoner with his wings. The summoner will be able to fly the same way as a sentinal till the summon runs off. While flying, the summoner will be able to use her regular attack as well as her special attack. Upon landing on the ground, the bahamut will release a stunning and damaging shockwave and will fly away.

Leave your feedback below!
Thanks for reading!

...The casting time happens after the ability? Then it's not a casting time, it's just cooldown. But I would like a teleport ability of some kind as an alternative to the Abyssal Barrier - NOT an escape utility, just a quick dodge sort of thing. As for rewinding specifically...It could work, maybe. The visual effect should be reminiscent of Melchiah's phasing ability.

...I'm sorry, Bahamut? This is Legacy of Kain, not Final Fantasy (which I love - yes, 13 is a great game), so that just sounds ridiculous right off the bat. Never mind that's just ripping off the Sentinel's flight and (to a lesser extent) dive bomb. If you give humans flight, why do Scouts exist?

ParadoxicalOmen
10th Feb 2015, 01:01
My Summoner sugestions:

1) Make "Abyssal bolt" throw animation time faster, because the way it is now its WAAAAAAAAY worse than "Hell Stike":
Abyssal bolt - 73 years to throw
Hell Strike - almost instant cast
And maybe reduce "Hell Strike" damage slightly (375 dmg?)

2) Make us able to choose where our pets will be summoned, similar to prophet's draining curse AEO interface.
2.1) Make pets able to climb (one time an enemy simply went up the stairs and pet couldn't chase him :mad:)
A problem example - Once i was in front of a scout and used "Summon Slayer". He spawn right in front of the scout but he was on top of a platform 30cm above him. So Slayer simply sat there doing nothing since he couldnt climb and wasn't smart enough to take the stairs a few meters away.
2.2) I thought also that maybe Slayer shouldn't target just one target (for example...if my original target gets too far, which happens a lot against players with "sprint perk", he will go after the next nearest one)

3) The pets feel too stupid...they miss their attacks a lot and most times can't chase the target (I'm not sure if this is intended).
But my suggestion to this is make them smarter and stronger (more damage) but decrease their health.
My idea is that they will be more efficient but against distracted players.

puff_ng
12th Feb 2015, 11:04
lol at all the suggestions to improve Summoner. He is so OP right now.

First of all, let me say I think Vamps do need another way to initiate engagements with Humans besides Reaver Smoke, and the Summoner's pets are a good idea towards that end. But they are imbalanced as all hell.

No other class can remain completely safe while harassing the enemy non-stop. Humans have no answer for them. Period.

Alchemist? Hah! The only class in the game that gets HARD countered by another class (Sentinel)?

Killing pets quickly is not a counter. It only returns the engagement to neutral.

Scenario 1: Humans kill the pets quickly, just to repeat the process again, until eventually ...

Scenario 2: Summoner lands Hell Strike or other Vamps attack while the Humans are distracted.

If there are two Summoners, the harassment is non-stop.

The only way Humans can kill a Summoner is if the Summoner makes a mistake in choosing when and how to enter melee.

It is simply no fun fighting against a Summoner and their pets because you don't accomplish anything.

My suggestion: Make summoning pets cost HP (e.g., 20%). You can even make pets stronger to compensate. Then Summoners cannot drop them non-stop, and killing pets quickly actually has a sense of accomplishment because you know you've weakened the Summoner indirectly.

Hixlysss
12th Feb 2015, 15:04
Buddy suggested a great idea to make the summoner's pets less annoying, and I had one to encourage the summoners to actually jump in and fight. Buddies idea was that line of sight would be needed for the summoned creatures to function. If you duck behind cover while creatures are out, they just stand around sitting on their hands.

My idea to get the summoners actually INTO the fight was a max distance from summoner. The summoner's pets can only go so far away from the summoner before they just up an go "Bleh" and die or what ever. Combine the two ideas and I figure the summoner would be fairly balanced.

Ygdrasel
12th Feb 2015, 16:11
Then Summoners cannot drop them non-stop

They already can't.

ParadoxicalOmen
13th Feb 2015, 01:59
I noticed that after you cancel "Abyssal bolt"...it takes around 2 seconds to launch another one. Is this intentional?

PS: by cancel i mean release the mouse before bolt is actually launched

Protekt1
13th Feb 2015, 02:35
It seems like often when I aim for a summoner and its pet is next to it, I seem to hit the pet way more often than the summoner. Especially with bola.

One other criticism I think is that perhaps the hellstrike is much better than the default since its damage is all at once. Seems to me that the instantaneous damage should be lower than the damage over time since you can interact more with the DoT by escaping its AOE before taking the most damage. It also seems much harder to dodge in general despite having a larger impact.

Necro71
14th Feb 2015, 11:38
In my opinion Summoner is just weak. It has less hp, summons are usless (low durability, almost none damage) and Shield is just waste of skill. Only usefull abilities are under right mouse button, but there are pretty long racharge time for them.

Summoner should have buffed summons, even at the cost of its recharge time. Also Shield should have other alternative as soon as possible.

Abyssal Bolt needs some changes couse its just bad. You almost never damage with explosion only little bit with AoE.

Hell Strike is ok but after charging skill you should be able to not relese it till you hold right mouse button, right now in many cases its relesed not when and where people wanna it to be.

Ygdrasel
14th Feb 2015, 21:01
summons are usless (low durability, almost none damage)

That's why you should join the fight with them...

Necro71
14th Feb 2015, 22:06
That's why you should join the fight with them...

I do this, this is another shield but made from meat. In the end playing summoner is mostly about melee and thats not the way i imagine this class.

GenFeelGood
14th Feb 2015, 22:13
I do this, this is another shield but made from meat. In the end playing summoner is mostly about melee and thats not the way i imagine this class.

This game dynamic is melee vs range and the vampires are the melee half of that equation. Despite all the ranged things she is capable of, she is still a vampire and therefore meant to be primarily melee.

Ygdrasel
14th Feb 2015, 23:17
I do this, this is another shield but made from meat. In the end playing summoner is mostly about melee and thats not the way i imagine this class.

So...You don't imagine a vampire, all of whom are primarily melee, being primarily melee?

war_mouth
1st Mar 2015, 18:56
please consider making the Abyssal Barrier a 'press once and forget' instead of the current press and hold. press and hold means you can really only move to the left since you're having to hold the button.

Ghosthree3
1st Mar 2015, 20:17
I have no problem moving wherever I want.

Also having it held means you can release it early.

TheDreamcrusher
1st Mar 2015, 21:09
please consider making the Abyssal Barrier a 'press once and forget' instead of the current press and hold. press and hold means you can really only move to the left since you're having to hold the button.

I'd prefer it this way as well, key-press activated/deactivated. Similar to how the Alchemist's flamethrower can be turned on and then off by pressing E. I'm not sure why though it's not the same ability button.

Abyssal Bolt
After some time of playing with the revamped version of AB, I don't feel like it's really differentiated enough from Hellstrike. The question is, how would you like to deal 400 damage? A chance of catching multiple targets for instant 400 damage minus falloff or over time with a bit of slow?

Personally I'd say go further with AB. Make the area large, maybe even decrease the damage, because the slow is effective but even from the center of the AoE it can be rolled out of. Making it slightly larger so if you were dead on with your launch of AB means they would take full damage and be slowed longer. If the area were made to be larger, I'd be fine with a longer duration and same damage, say 5-6 seconds.

_Kine_
9th Mar 2015, 19:49
please consider making the Abyssal Barrier a 'press once and forget' instead of the current press and hold. press and hold means you can really only move to the left since you're having to hold the button.

I wished it was a RMB ability instead

Ygdrasel
10th Mar 2015, 01:52
please consider making the Abyssal Barrier a 'press once and forget' instead of the current press and hold. press and hold means you can really only move to the left since you're having to hold the button.

You can move in any direction while holding the button...

maddpadd
13th Mar 2015, 11:22
I added mouse4 (thumb button) to the keybinds for summoners shield..............simples.

TheDreamcrusher
3rd Apr 2015, 05:07
Summon Stalkers/Slayer
After getting a fair amount of experience with the Summoner, summons pretty much act like a buff in melee strength and damage reduction with a side of momentary distraction if the Summoner doesn't use them to engage in melee. I feel like Stalkers definitely have the advantage when it comes to engaging in melee, since they are a fast and easy activation as well as providing more cover vs. non-aoe projectiles simply because of more surface area.

Other than that, they don't really differentiate themselves well. I'd be of a mind to keep Stalker damage low, bump their health to 300, and let them be used as I just described: a solid buff in melee engagement with slight hitting power. The Slayer I would take in the other direction; lower his health, up his movement speed drastically, and let him keep his damage. That way it's like unleashing a hound, especially if he's going to be oriented on attacking a single target.

Alternate Summons
Since the summons we have now currently act as either a melee buffer or distraction, it'd be nice to get some real alternates as to how they are used. Wisps, ghosts, or phantoms could be brought to the field to provide various debuffs or other effects. An Entropy Wisp could rapidly deplete ammo outside of a current clip for humans, or possibly in the clip. Forcing reloads is another way to make openings to attack humans and could make weapons with high clip counts more valuable in meta.

Phantom Humans could cause havoc with Deceivers blending in, possibly even using abilities like Healing Mist or Eldritch Guard that have no effect and appear in false colors to vampires.

Alternate Abilities
Eventually there's going to be something better than Abyssal Shield, so AS might receive a functional buff to actually reflect some projectiles back and cause damage to humans.

Drylands Walk/Jaunt - I think there might be some merit to an idea of letting the Summoner work more in a support role by either sending another vampire into the spectral realm, functioning similar to Disguise but unable to act at all or take damage until the Jaunt ended or by letting herself do the same. Makes for an entry and exit ability or even grants a chance to save an ally.

ParadoxicalOmen
29th Apr 2015, 01:57
I'd like to state that there is a problem with shield that needs to be fixed. Right now it doesn't defend against AOE attacks, such as light bomb. It all works fine if the bomb is throw AT THE shield...but if it is thrown 1 inch in front of shield, AOE damage is calculated normally.