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absinthesize
30th Jan 2015, 06:52
finally got both today

im...underwhelmed.

First lets start with infect, doesnt require positioning...sweet, does 405 damage to the main target...nice! seeing as how a backstab is at best 145 more i think.

bbuutt...

no burst, as playing a deceiver ive come to rely on my burst and mobility to stay alive. i feel practically neutered even tho technically i could do up to 1005 damage? with infect.

Then we have shroud, i thought for sure it would be better then illusions who have horrible AI and well..do zero damage.

bbuutt...

lets see, first thing i quickly realized, is that if your zoned out (firewall, volley, whatever prophoet lays down, etc) then the skill is wasted..and im zoned out ALOT. Furthermore you CANNOT ATTACK while using it, you could say (well your doing 200dps a second in an AREA) and i agree, except...again...no burst. On top of that i cannot use my dodge+roll in combat, even with being partially visible its very easy to get spotted and destroyed and losing that added mobility is noticeable.

and to top it all off the entire build (infect+shroud) simply doesnt "close the deal" it seems, sure you can spread damage like crazy and pad those numbers, but if it doesnt kill the humans...you are now relying on your teamates to kill them. and if they all are still alive (because you spread damage around isntead of closing the deal) the enemy are still 4 strong even if they have low hp, wich while low hp is scary, it doesnt drop the effective dps of the group.

Now backstab is finicky, but the immediate fear instilled by a appropriately applied backstab is great, followed by a immediate illusions to body block (something that i cant seem to do right now on shroud ill explain in a bit) while i kill the human i just chunked for just over half there HP. then get out of dodge.

That leads me to one last thing, when i backstab...i can IMMEDIATLY activate illusions

ive been unable to do this with shroud, there seems to be up to a full second delay between infect and being able to cast shroud...ive died in this period of time at least twice today.

so lets recap

infect+shroud

1-has no burst

2-keeps me from using my attacks to do damage as well as be harder to hit

3-there is a noticeable delay between using infect and being able to cast shroud

sooo...why do people like it?

only time i could consider using it is when humans are holding up inside of a building...thats literally it.

Razaiim
30th Jan 2015, 07:31
The combo is very good for doing hit and runs. You drop in, use infect for 205 (same as melee) on a target or two, then use shroud's partial invisibility to break line of sight and escape. Unless healing mist is in effect you can wear out camping humans and any heal stations. If you are using Shroud offensively, it is best to stick to one target and dance around them instead of trying to juggle multiple targets.

Also while backstab can do up to 550, the potential difficulties of getting into position and the ability for targets to turn around mean alot of 275 strikes. This makes infect better in this instance as it does 455 regardless of positioning.

Essentially what the disguise/infect/shroud combo does is rather than making you a straight up assassin, you're now more of a group disruptor, and become a time bomb for any group that becomes very entrenched. Healing stations have 120 second cooldown compared to your skills' 15-20 seconds.

absinthesize
30th Jan 2015, 08:05
so...aside from using it when they become entrenched

whats the point?

not to mention that lately i cant even use shroud in time half the time...there is a delay between using infect and casting shroud...i die often during this time. even if trying to be evasive.

mauvo58
30th Jan 2015, 08:31
Infect is a way to chip away at many targets rather than kill just one. It might give your team the edge, at the cost of your personal kill count. It's just a slightly different role for the Deceiver to play. And you can pair infect with Illusions, which are often better for escaping.

I'm not a Shroud fan for all the reasons you give and illusions are more versatile. If you're using Shroud it's not invisibility so you can't use it without other distractions from the rest of your team. It's a great way to become a low priority target in the melee.

Saying that, I play with back stab and illusions, and you can too. The point is choice.

absinthesize
30th Jan 2015, 09:04
i might have to stick with backstab and illusions, ive catered a style to it and it seems to work better

and i can usually over 50% of the time land a full backstab.

i could consider maybe infect+illusions.

the difference seems to be about 145 damage to the priority target. deceiver hits for 205? a full hp target typically has 1050 hp

hp left with backstab 775-500hp or 3-4 basic hits

hp left with infect 645 or 4 basic hits

the main thing is even paired with a full charged attack and one regular attack, the human is still going to have 30hp after infect, while he will be DEAD with a backstab that lands for double damage.

so worst case scenario you kill a human just as fast with infect as a poorly landed backstab, but with a double damage backstab you can gib someone faster.

now here is the kicker for me

infect can spread to multiple targets, helping the team, and shroud can do some light DoT damage while you run away

backstab and illusions each have 5 seconds faster cooldowns, able to apply more pressure/confusion

in a organized team i can see infect+shroud working out, but in pugs (pick up groups) where you cant relly on your teams compentence, closing the deal and assassinating key targets is imo the stronger choice.

--Ram--
30th Jan 2015, 09:45
I tend to prefer shroud + infect. You basically just play the role of an annoying jerk who pops up every time your opponents least want you to, and slips in and out of fights with relative ease (provided you engage with good timing and sufficient distractions).

I basically just alternate shroud and disguise and hit and run as much as possible, which is a lot using the two and with -15% cooldown time. Also just use cover and charged attacks for more hit and run without needing to use skills. This just gives the humans a lot to worry about, and distracts them from other tasks, and wears them down. Don't always hit and run though, if you can just sit there and whale on someone safely then do it.

You may not be able to burst people quickly solo this way (although you kind of can with infect + melees) but you tend to be able to get into positions to focus someone down with other team members.

Shroud is fine to exchange for illusions, one thing I find it is nice for however is to semi-counter to bolas when trying to finish off a hunter. Mainly I use it as a way to move around in a less risky fashion though, when disguise isn't up. Also you can climb with it on which is nice, so if I want to approach someone above me I will often use it then and disguise to disengage.

Khalith
30th Jan 2015, 10:02
My loadout for Deceiver is a Mysterious disguise with +2% attack speed, +5% ability cooldowns, -5% hp and -10% regen, Infect, and Shroud, with a +HP perk and I don't see it changing anytime soon! I love infect, not only because of the aoe but because it's just so much more reliable than Backstab in my opinion. With Backstab I never know if I will hit them from behind for full damage, whiff because the hitbox is still weird, or hit them for some damage even though their back was to me but the server disagrees!

My usual tactic is to get in position using the invisibility from Disguise, get close to infect, then use shroud to run away and keep the humans in my line of sight with them being worn down by my infect debuff. Then when my team does their attack I get back in there and either use disguise + infect again if the cooldown is back up (there have been times where I've been able to do that before my team was in position to attack and by the time they were it was ready to go again) or I'll attack with my team and pick off whoever is low, usually by dropping behind them and doing a fully charged melee attack.

Usually with the right opportunities taken I tend to top damage and kills with Deceiver by using the hit and run tactics and finishing off survivors. Also if the fight is going well I keep an eye out for any low hp humans running away and then I'll either A) finish them if they try to use the station or B) let them lead me to their respawned team, infect the group, finish the low hp human, and then shroud and get away while my team gets in position again. It works well enough unless there is an alchemist running the heal but the cooldown on my infect + diguise is shorter than healing mist. It's just a matter of timing it right.

absinthesize
30th Jan 2015, 10:16
Thanks for the input Ram

i still prefer backstab, i feel when i play deceiver i play an assassin, i prioritize one target usually, usually the best player on the other team, and i try my best to keep them occupied.

absinthesize
30th Jan 2015, 10:26
thanks for the input Khalith

sounds like a much slower playstyle then what i developed, tho maybe its the more optimal one, i wont know unless i reach high MMR

i do know that with my trying like hell for a day to make infect+shroud work...i struggled to net kills, get assists, and top damage. i did manage it in a couple games tho

went back to backstab+illusions, first match...15 kills 3 deaths, second match, 15 kills 4 deaths

maybe the people i played when using infect+shroud were better then the people i played with backstab+illusions i dont know...its probably just how i play. much more aggressive deceiver.

Drebin162
30th Jan 2015, 12:51
The key thing here is that abilities in Nosgoth aren't upgrades, they're sidegrades. Infect will do lots of damage on a hit and run when they cluster, but Backstab does 500-600 to a single target from behind. Shroud is good but I prefer illusions when you go on the offencive or want to harrass.

Personally I run Infect and Illusions in one build for the aggro, but Dominate Mind in another for harrassment and cause its just plain funny.

Every skill has its place and its role, so just pick whatever suits your playstyle and preference.

HoopleDoople
30th Jan 2015, 14:46
I personally have a strong preference for Backstab over Infect, as I find eliminating one human rapidly a greater help to the team than weakening them all. At times I'll pull out Infect when the enemies are too alert for Backstab, but honestly at this point I'd rather switch over to Reaver. After all, the kind of enemies who are able to consistently avoid full Backstab damage are the kind of enemies that aren't going to overly cluster and let Infect spread.

Shroud, on the other hand, is an ability I almost always use. It is next to useless if the Humans have no other Vampires in the area to distract them, but in the chaos of a full assault it really shines. If you fail to land your Backstab for full damage, melee the enemy a couple times and then pop Shroud. You can then run circles around the human to continually deal damage, making yourself a very hard target. If you did pull off a quick kill on your first target use Shroud to semi-stealthily approach an engaged enemy and then do your best to body block his path of retreat. And of course if you are ever hurt badly Shroud can help you escape combat, assuming the Humans aren't solely focused on you.

absinthesize
30th Jan 2015, 23:13
The key thing here is that abilities in Nosgoth aren't upgrades, they're sidegrades. Infect will do lots of damage on a hit and run when they cluster, but Backstab does 500-600 to a single target from behind. Shroud is good but I prefer illusions when you go on the offencive or want to harrass.

Personally I run Infect and Illusions in one build for the aggro, but Dominate Mind in another for harrassment and cause its just plain funny.

Every skill has its place and its role, so just pick whatever suits your playstyle and preference.

certain people gravitate towards certain playstyles but beyond that certain skills are better in certain situations

i understand the times infect+shroud would be better, and ive changed accordingly, so for me infect+shroud is a secondary loadout, simply because my base playstyle is much more offensive.

Razaiim
31st Jan 2015, 00:50
Just keep in mind that there are multiple ways to play, even between builds. For example the standard way to play Abduct/puncture/Take-off is to snatch a player and fight him away from the group. Lately i've been leading with Charged Attack--> puncture--> take-off when things get hairy, and using Abduct as a final pick off.

Ygdrasel
31st Jan 2015, 01:01
I use shroud + backstab. I'm lousy with the 'disguise' part of Disguise (I'm also a terrible TF2 spy) so Shroud gets me in close while dealing damage. Breaking the shroud with a well-aimed stab has proven an effective method to enter into combat, then I proceed with standard melee. If I get into a dangerous spot and need an exit strategy, I use Disguise's temporary cloaking to cover my escape. I make a poor assassin but a decent chaos causer.

As for "closing the deal", if I can, great, I'll go for it....But I've never understood the particular fixation with kills. Damage is damage. If I wear them down enough for the others to clean up but can't quite make the kill shot, I've still done my job. I value assists only slightly less than kills and that's only because the game itself scores them less.

Ysanoire
31st Jan 2015, 02:59
I see your math, but to me that spreading damage is worth the additional hit. It's a team game, I'd say helping the team is a good reason to pick something.

Often, it will be your infect that "closes the deal" while you push your infected target into his teammates, infecting someone who was low. I've gotten triple kills with infect in the past.

As for shroud, I mainly use it not to escape but to stay in the fight without taking too much damage. I hump one guy's leg making it hard for him to shoot me, and a bit harder for his teammates (doesn't work if 4 humans focus you, of course, but against 2 humans at a time it can work) and of course when you get bola'd you can use shroud to not be a complete waste of space.

I value Shroud and Illusions more or less the same. I'd say Shroud is better against less skilled random groups (it does decent damage actually), while I would choose Illusions against more pro opponents.

absinthesize
31st Jan 2015, 10:52
@Ygdrasel

in a coordinated group i could see infect being better, but in pug games wich is what i usually play i cannot reliably...well...rely on my teamates. as such consider the higher score (or first to 30 kills) wins, i need to close that deal, i need to get that kill to balance out the guy on my team with 3000 damage and 0 kills. thats what im getting at.

@Ysanoire, again, because of the nature of pug groups, i cant reliably...rely on my teamates, hence me wanting the kill over spreading the damage.

i must face better players, because i cant reliably use shroud outside of enclosed spaces where the enemy team is huddling...its...the only time i ever think about switching to shroud/infect when in pick up games.

Ysanoire
1st Feb 2015, 05:43
@Ysanoire, again, because of the nature of pug groups, i cant reliably...rely on my teamates, hence me wanting the kill over spreading the damage.


Yeah, I see why you'd pick that option, but, well, you were asking why.

In my case it's also that I find it a bother to position myself correctly for the 550 stab and then to hit it properly, so REALISTICALLY I have to assume it would do 275 damage rather than 550 (which is kinda meh).

Infect single target damage is still equivalent to a Puncture or Kick so I dunno if the "no burst" part is entirely true.

absinthesize
1st Feb 2015, 09:45
Yeah, I see why you'd pick that option, but, well, you were asking why.

In my case it's also that I find it a bother to position myself correctly for the 550 stab and then to hit it properly, so REALISTICALLY I have to assume it would do 275 damage rather than 550 (which is kinda meh).

Infect single target damage is still equivalent to a Puncture or Kick so I dunno if the "no burst" part is entirely true.

ya sorry, the thread kinda evolved to once explained why...me understanding why its not typically suiting me.

i usually dont have a ton of trouble finding positioning for it. right now at least.

its overall damage is equal but its burst is equivalent of one basic melee attack. giving the opponent time to react. I dont like giving my opponents time to react.

thats why i calculated it in terms of number of attacks to kill from 100% hp, in wich case a face hitting backstab and a infect are on equal grounds actually.

Persiphas
1st Feb 2015, 15:52
I prefer Disguise, Infect, Shroud over other loadouts. imo Infect is much more reliable (constant damage AND less hitbox problems) and executed faster. I also see much higher damage numbers in average if I use Infect. I prefer Shroud over Illusions because:
- It is easy to spot the real Deceiver,when he uses Illusions
- Since the grenade nerfs nearly all Hunters roll Explosive shot, which will easily destroy Illusions (in my experience it never was a bad choice to pop Explosive shot if you are unsure)
- Shroud can do damage while you are bolad
- I made many kills with popping Shroud and immediately climbing a wall (on the first jump it will still deal damage)
- You can use Shroud in the middle of a fight to charge your melee attack
- Shroud is a good escape move (compared to Illusions. If you want to escape with Illusions you can't use dodge rolls etc because most players will realize that you are the real one. If you use Shroud, it is hard for most players to follow you movement)
- And last but not least: Infect+Shroud just fits my playstyle with Deceiver (hit and run, sometimes initiate. the latter only works with premades). If you are more the all-in aggressive player I can see why you want to go with backstab, but I prefer a more cautious playstyle. If you can keep your Kill/death ratio positive with backstab/Illusions just stick with it, but I see too many Deceivers that score like 10/10 with it, so they did not make any points towards victory for their team, just towards the end of the match.

absinthesize
1st Feb 2015, 17:18
I prefer Disguise, Infect, Shroud over other loadouts. imo Infect is much more reliable (constant damage AND less hitbox problems) and executed faster. I also see much higher damage numbers in average if I use Infect. I prefer Shroud over Illusions because:

im gonna seperate this into quotes to give my opinion on each situation :), all this may be simply because i dont know how to play infect+shroud effectively. for example, i found much LOWER damage number on average using infect. wich surprised me.


- It is easy to spot the real Deceiver,when he uses Illusions

true, but its not instant, thats why i like pairing backstab with it, and using it right in the thick of things in the middle of the human group while fighting my team. there is usually enough time to finish off a human before they realize whats happening.


- Since the grenade nerfs nearly all Hunters roll Explosive shot, which will easily destroy Illusions (in my experience it never was a bad choice to pop Explosive shot if you are unsure)

aye i play mostly hunter on humanside, i always use explosive shot on illusions. however i watch many deceivers pop illusions before they get into battle ON THERE WAY TO FIGHTING...just seems like a bad decision ot me. at least if you pop it when your in the thick of battle they use it and damage themselves too.


- Shroud can do damage while you are bolad

I didnt know this! everytime iwas bolad it appeared my shroud would end (id become visible)


- I made many kills with popping Shroud and immediately climbing a wall (on the first jump it will still deal damage)
interesting idea, might have to try it sometime.


- You can use Shroud in the middle of a fight to charge your melee attack
I must be doing this wrong, i always get spotted and killed while trying to do this with shroud.


- Shroud is a good escape move (compared to Illusions. If you want to escape with Illusions you can't use dodge rolls etc because most players will realize that you are the real one. If you use Shroud, it is hard for most players to follow you movement)
ya ive tricked some players by just running in a straight line away from the fight, they assume im an illusion. not saying that would be reliable tho. shroud is probably more reliable for escapes.


- And last but not least: Infect+Shroud just fits my playstyle with Deceiver (hit and run, sometimes initiate. the latter only works with premades). If you are more the all-in aggressive player I can see why you want to go with backstab, but I prefer a more cautious playstyle. If you can keep your Kill/death ratio positive with backstab/Illusions just stick with it, but I see too many Deceivers that score like 10/10 with it, so they did not make any points towards victory for their team, just towards the end of the match.

See thats another reason for me to enjoy this game, when more hten one playstyle seems to be effective on a single class, ive seen many games that lacked such depth. Im DEFINITLY a more aggressive all-in deceiver. i even use undying wisdom for faster cooldowns giving me a 9 second CD backstab, 13.5 second CD disguise, and a 18 second CD illusion.

vs with the other combo wich would be 13.5 second CD infect and a 22.5 second CD shroud. its not a huge difference but for me it feels MASSIVE, being able to cloak in, backstab, kill someone, get away...and to immediatly be able to start coming back disguised again (while my vamp regen starts ticking) to start it up again. as much pressure as possible, dont let them breath, dont let them get comfortable.

also my KDR is decent, i usually go 10-15 kills (best is 17 kills) and get less then 5 deaths usually. as far as overall KDR for deceiver, according to my profile its 2.07 KDR

gah just thinking about it makes me want to record myself playing and put it up on youtube, but no time, have to work superbowl day...maybe monday...or wed/thur. we will see.

love this game too much i guess lol.

Ysanoire
1st Feb 2015, 17:25
I didnt know this! everytime iwas bolad it appeared my shroud would end (id become visible)


Oh, maybe I should have been more explicit about it 'cause that's what I meant by not being a waste of space when bolad. I THINK the effect ends when you get a bola in Shroud, but you definitely turn invisible and deal damage when you activate Shroud AFTER you get hit with bola.

absinthesize
2nd Feb 2015, 04:02
thats a pretty nice thing to be able to do wont lie.

Cycatrix
8th Feb 2015, 14:40
It has been a while since I played deceiver but I believe this is what I did.

Move to the back of the group using climbing, then pop shroud to get close. Charge up an attack while invisible to slap someone for massive damage, then pop infect and try to survive with disguise. Shroud isnt really good for avoiding damage if they know you are around or if you walk straight at them since they see the distortion.

MickeyHokkaido
8th Feb 2015, 18:42
After 250 hours of play with Deceiver being my first choice in higher-tier match ups, I've recently made the switch back to illusions. You need to change how you play quite a bit - that is to say, infect or backstab, run/dodge around a corner or go up a wall to break line of sight, then pop your illusions so that there is doubt about which one you are. From there, you may need to move straight ahead right next to an illusion without attacking or dodging or climbing in order to cement the facade. All of these actions sound overly complicated, but they take place over two to three seconds - if you do it right, you can force the enemy team to burn clutch abilities like bolas and firewall and waste ammo. You also give your team an excellent opener. It's much more all-in than the typical shroud/infect style though.

Infect is much more reliable than backstab, yes - but I do think there is something to be said for a build that utilizes a +5% attack/move speed on kill + the 15% attack/move speed on kill perk with backstab combined with illusions - it really makes you a terrifying assassin/mop up trooper. Shroud can kind of gimp your DPS and contribution to the group fight if your teammates all commit to the engagement because unless the enemies are all bundled up, you're doing much less damage than you would be if you were using your regular melee. Deceiver's regular melee is really powerful, so I like to try to maximize my opportunities to spam attacks.

Sluagh
10th Feb 2015, 23:00
I always play shroud and infect. I might consider changing at some point. But others have said, chip away at the opponents - sometimes you can stomp in a couple of good runs. What I try to is position with Disguise, normally going for an opponent slightly separate from the group. Then I get in a good charged hit, and as they run, infect. 7/10 out of ten they will run towards their group, as they feel exposed. I normally follow them with shroud, which usually kills them. This works well with Scouts. It's a bit more tricky with Alchemists, as they are bit too nasty up close, and often firewall your escape. I don't always get top DPS as Deceiver, but I quite often do (unless I'm playing with ice cold killas).

_Kine_
15th Feb 2015, 20:07
zyp3EUFOhRY

After having read this thread I went ahead and unlocked infect. Footage is my very first match using this combo. Definitely see the potential. Awesome 1v1 performance too. One thing I can add to this discussion is how in-your-face this combo can be played. The unsaid assumption with Backstab is how sneaky sneaky you have to be. Often find myself pausing longer before going in when playing Backstabbing assassin. I would wait until I am certain the intended target will not suddenly turn. But with Infect - I'm allowed to simply walk up to him, claw his face in and Shroud if he has the advantage. Dirty dancing around before finishing him off melee.

Admittedly you don't usually get clusters like in that video but I'm fairly certain I can come out on top in 1 v 2 brawls with this combo. That's pretty good.

TeeSin
7th Mar 2015, 13:45
^ hehe , nice skin u got there :D .

And infect+shroud is the loadout i love the most . The build is for messing up the human team comp , deal ton of dps dmg to 4 of them if they stick too close together . Actually one of my 3 quad is by standing near 4 of low hp human :D .

Even tho shroud still seeable but human which fire arrows/bullets will still finding hardtime shooting you if u just rollin around them constantly :D . And if they spend all the aoe skills , bullets for you , your team will have an easy team engaging and clearing the rest of 'em .

Combo : Disguige ( Invi ) to go in -> Infect -> Shroud rollin around for a while -> Attack to finish the prey if possible or roll out and wait for the next engage . ( Passive : the one that reducing 10%CD ofc , every vampire use it :) )