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SethSamson
26th Jan 2015, 12:34
Hi
This is the First Time that i heard that HUMANS are stronger and faster than Vampires

Human Hunter
1050 Hp
Can Sprint
Has a powerful crossbows
Has a powerful skills

Vampire Reaver
1000 Hp
Can't Sprint ( unless he use Leap Attack skill but then He can't stunt )
Has Claws
Has only few skills mainly defence to run away

Human Prophet
Has Aiming Circle for her Disabling skills
Has a Powerful pistol each shot 150 dmg ( heavy pistols )

Vampire Tyrant
His Jump Attack don't have any Aiming Circle
His Charged attack is a joke . (takes to long)
He is TRUE WARRIOR in fact he is paper tank who has to hide .

that is weird universe .. where humans are stronger more durable and have better arsenal than the vampires

Hey im a Vampire but i can't catch up with running away human ( Weird Right ??!! )

Solutions
All Vampires should have for leg sprint
All Vampires should have some kinda BLOCK , especially Tyrant ( to bounce those Bolas out for example )
All Vampires should have Crouch ( this would be cool if would be able to Crouch and wait till that regen kicks in instead of just standing in the corner )
Vampires also should have Aiming Circles ( Jump attack Tyrant )
All Vampires should have more HP
All Vampires should have something like Blood Vision ( see blood pumping through human veins and heart ) to help them swing their claws and to tell them they are in range ( humans have their crosshair )


Tyrant Evolved Skin
Please Make him Fatter and he has no ass ;p FIX That and his pony tail

Sentinel
Please pitch that in flight camera a little bit to the ground ... i really don't like to stare on his buttocks

JudgeScootaloo
26th Jan 2015, 12:47
Vampires are stronger, though.
This is also the first time I've heard anyone tell me that Humans are stronger than Vampires.

Humans can't actually 1v1 and expect to win. 9/10 times, the Vampire will wreck his face.
(if you're getting 1v1'd by a human, then you probably are not dodging his powers which tend to be OBVIOUS AS ALL F if your latency isn't too much to handle...)

The Vampires are not supposed to tank the Humans. NOT even the Tyrant.
It's a game of coordination and synergized combat.

The Prophet's heavy pistols are, arguably, the strongest weapon in the game. It hits like a truck.
That being said, it's really not a massive game changer unless they happen to be really deadly shooters.
Which would apply with every human, really.

How do you not catch up with a running human?
You're actually faster on rooftops and stuff.
Even just normal meleeing him will hit if you got even one in.
Or just do the trademark LMB>ROLL>LMB>ROLL until you hit him then spam LMB...

Reaver defence?
What?
2/3 of his powers are offensive... (unless you're using his smoke to run, in which case I think you misunderstand what it's made to do)
His final power is usually an escape, yeah. Or a damage+speed boost.

TL;DR - Humans lose most of the time. I find that in general 7/10 times, the Vampires will win.
The occasions where humans win are either very slim or completely overpowered on the human side.
(god-tier aim shots vs inadequate vampire commitment and initiation)

FireWorks_
26th Jan 2015, 13:08
Vampires are stronger, though.
This is also the first time I've heard anyone tell me that Humans are stronger than Vampires.

TL;DR - Humans lose most of the time. I find that in general 7/10 times, the Vampires will win.
The occasions where humans win are either very slim or completely overpowered on the human side.
(god-tier aim shots vs inadequate vampire commitment and initiation)

This changes drastically when you face experienced and/or good players.

JudgeScootaloo
26th Jan 2015, 13:30
This changes drastically when you face experienced and/or good players.

It takes more skill to play humans, but with that covered, the vampires now need better coordination to counter them.
Regardless, most of the time, a vampire will beat a human in a straight fight.

Sure, a more experienced human will be able to outpace the vampire. (especially prophets)
It's definitely a little disturbing but it doesn't actually make humans stronger.

Vampires prioritize on initiation+stealth and humans prioritize on responses+poke.

FireWorks_
26th Jan 2015, 13:43
It takes more skill to play humans, but with that covered, the vampires now need better coordination to counter them.
Regardless, most of the time, a vampire will beat a human in a straight fight.

Sure, a more experienced human will be able to outpace the vampire. (especially prophets)
It's definitely a little disturbing but it doesn't actually make humans stronger.

Vampires prioritize on initiation+stealth and humans prioritize on responses+poke.

If the humans let the vamps get close unharmed, they do it wrong.
New players tend to stand around waiting for the vamps to jump in their face. This is what changes over time and shifts the game to its current pretty well balanced state.

SethSamson
26th Jan 2015, 14:13
Let me Break that down for you cause u probably are still playing on Recruit servers


Vampires are stronger, though.
This is also the first time I've heard anyone tell me that Humans are stronger than Vampires.

Humans can't actually 1v1 and expect to win. 9/10 times, the Vampire will wreck his face.
(if you're getting 1v1'd by a human, then you probably are not dodging his powers which tend to be OBVIOUS AS ALL F if your latency isn't too much to handle...)

Im talking about imbalance here between those two faction .. strip down their skills and leave only their primary weapons

Human 1050 hp
Crossbow
VS
Vampire 1000 hp
Claws

HUMAN GONNA WIN 8 times out of 10
(make a private match and test it )




The Vampires are not supposed to tank the Humans. NOT even the Tyrant.
It's a game of coordination and synergized combat.


So Humans Are stronger ;p


The Prophet's heavy pistols are, arguably, the strongest weapon in the game. It hits like a truck.
That being said, it's really not a massive game changer unless they happen to be really deadly shooters.
Which would apply with every human, really.

I use that in comparison to the Tyrant claw attack
Humans are stronger


How do you not catch up with a running human?
You're actually faster on rooftops and stuff.
Even just normal meleeing him will hit if you got even one in.
Or just do the trademark LMB>ROLL>LMB>ROLL until you hit him then spam LMB...


Agian ... JUST PRESSING W + SHIFT .. running in the straight line
Humans are faster



Reaver defence?
What?
2/3 of his powers are offensive... (unless you're using his smoke to run, in which case I think you misunderstand what it's made to do)
His final power is usually an escape, yeah. Or a damage+speed boost.


Again .. in comparison to the Hunter Human Class
Humans have more offensive skills and weapons




TL;DR - Humans lose most of the time. I find that in general 7/10 times, the Vampires will win.
The occasions where humans win are either very slim or completely overpowered on the human side.
(god-tier aim shots vs inadequate vampire commitment and initiation)

Ask yourself
Do u ever heard about Vampire running away from the Human ???
Or do you ever heard about Human running away from the Vampire ???

In Nosgoth Humans Win 15% more times than Vampires ..
Vampires are weak slow
they should be more self sustained

THEY SHOULD BE VAMPIRES .

Khalith
26th Jan 2015, 14:32
TL;DR - Humans lose most of the time. I find that in general 7/10 times, the Vampires will win.
The occasions where humans win are either very slim or completely overpowered on the human side.
(god-tier aim shots vs inadequate vampire commitment and initiation)

Vampires winning more is true at lower levels. However at higher levels of play with coordinated teams the humans should always win, granted a coordinated team will always beat a pug no matter which side is playing, but if you take two organized teams against one another, the humans should always win by a fairly large margin. Humans do have a higher learning curve in this game (especially for people used to the CoD style shooting and running off alone will get jumped and die easily) but once the humans learn to shoot the vampires before they get close, dodge things like jumps/charges/bombs/etc., and actually cover each other? They're unbeatable. A lone human that uses their cooldowns correctly (assuming both are at full hp) and can aim relatively well should always be able to beat a vampire in a 1v1.

TL: DR version: Humans are stronger. The margin is nowhere near as bad as it used to be, but it still holds true.

JudgeScootaloo
26th Jan 2015, 14:40
Vampires winning more is true at lower levels. However at higher levels of play with coordinated teams the humans should always win, granted a coordinated team will always beat a pug no matter which side is playing, but if you take two organized teams against one another, the humans should always win by a fairly large margin. Humans do have a higher learning curve in this game (especially for people used to the CoD style shooting and running off alone will get jumped and die easily) but once the humans learn to shoot the vampires before they get close, dodge things like jumps/charges/bombs/etc., and actually cover each other? They're unbeatable. A lone human that uses their cooldowns correctly (assuming both are at full hp) and can aim relatively well should always be able to beat a vampire in a 1v1.

TL: DR version: Humans are stronger. The margin is nowhere near as bad as it used to be, but it still holds true.


I see.
Then I suppose it is for the lack of a stealthier way to travel/initiate that vampires lose out later.
If it is a stat problem, then it makes very little sense for Vampires to be winning at early stages.
(unless the problem itself is so miniscule that even a small bit of inexperience can negate the effect)


@SethSamson
- Vampires run from humans. That's actually the lore of vampires. They attack in stealth. Only action-movie vampires go headfirst into a firefight.
- Humans running from vampires is pretty commonly heard of in vampire lore. Even modern ones.


The fact I actually do win most of my human fights means I can't quite argue that humans can't 1v1 vampires beyond this.
-edited out long explanation-
That being said, it's a close call. I will likely die if the vampire manages to avoid even one of my disabling powers and I am unable to outpace him with dodges. (which shouldn't happen if the Vampire has been paying attention at all)


The real flaw is not that Vampires are unable to do the damage or survive the shots.
They were likely never supposed to. (these are Vampire KILLERS, not just farmers in leather armour)
It's the lack of a proper stealth aspect to their nature.

Khalith
26th Jan 2015, 14:53
I see.
Then I suppose it is for the lack of a stealthier way to travel/initiate that vampires lose out later.
If it is a stat problem, then it makes very little sense for Vampires to be winning at early stages.

Vampires win at early stages because of a lack of coordination among newbie human players. Humans that run off alone and don't cover each other, you know the sort if you've been playing a while, the scout that stands there with his charge shot and doesn't notice you being mauled by a reaver about five feet away or the dude playing the hunter that walks off through the map while his team is camped nowhere close because he thinks he can stand up to the vamps alone and rage quits the match when he dies. Not to mention humans that haven't learned how to time their dodge roll to evade pounces, charges, and sentinel grabs or how to bola/knives/whip a climbing vampire so they fall and get lit up or how to bola/hex shot a diving sentinel. All these skills that are not developed yet but absolutely critical at higher levels of play.

But once you have those skills and your team does that's when the humans start to shine, also, the humans have one more distinct advantage that the vamps can't compare to them with, AOE/area denial.

JudgeScootaloo
26th Jan 2015, 15:05
Vampires win at early stages because of a lack of coordination among newbie human players. Humans that run off alone and don't cover each other, you know the sort if you've been playing a while, the scout that stands there with his charge shot and doesn't notice you being mauled by a reaver about five feet away or the dude playing the hunter that walks off through the map while his team is camped nowhere close because he thinks he can stand up to the vamps alone and rage quits the match when he dies. Not to mention humans that haven't learned how to time their dodge roll to evade pounces, charges, and sentinel grabs or how to bola/knives/whip a climbing vampire so they fall and get lit up or how to bola/hex shot a diving sentinel. All these skills that are not developed yet but absolutely critical at higher levels of play.

But once you have those skills and your team does that's when the humans start to shine, also, the humans have one more distinct advantage that the vamps can't compare to them with, AOE/area denial.

That early stage where inexperience allows a stat difference to become inefficient, then?
Any more strength to the Vampires and the early-mid stages of the game for most people will tilt drastically to the Vampires.
That much is clear.

A skilled human always outclasses a skilled vampire.
I suppose that's a logic I have to accept.
Though I would probably still punch SethSamson in the teeth.

SethSamson
26th Jan 2015, 15:20
Im just saying

In world of Nosgoth,
I wouldn't want to become a Vampire.

Khalith
26th Jan 2015, 15:37
That early stage where inexperience allows a stat difference to become inefficient, then?
Any more strength to the Vampires and the early-mid stages of the game for most people will tilt drastically to the Vampires.
That much is clear.

A skilled human always outclasses a skilled vampire.

Exactly, you understand the game's situation as far as balance goes and why it's tough to adjust either side.

SilentVirtue
26th Jan 2015, 15:39
Basically, at top tier play, humans > vamps

When humans learn to play together is the tipping point.

absinthesize
26th Jan 2015, 19:16
not even top tier

they only need 2 things

have good aim

cover eachother

and they will start winning most engagements

PublicIdentity02
29th Jan 2015, 09:40
Hello dev and funboys!

This is my feedback.

I am 29 years old, my multiplayer ages began with Ultima online, i have 15 years of experience with multiplayer and online game. So i am not really a "noob".

I have to say one, this game is still really unbalanced, this is why vampires usually win, its a fact and i am sure that, If you have some statistics of result matches you will see that i have true.


Now some Evidence:

i played only 15 hour, but how is possible this?

http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc/529506234709746356/918FBF7E7B847DD3A8B52D0D59E502FC55306E21/

why players publishes their results only when they always play as a vampire? Let me guess...
If you dont believe me, check steam comunnity center.

Why i have good statics only on vampires? Is it possible that i can play only one class? NO

for compare:
My favorite characters is Hunter and Scout...
http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc/529506324645745255/040FFED4541B937EBD8DD6894288F95C58F0F075/
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=383212013

My favorite vampire is reaver
http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc/529506324645745781/0B87AA42B97389CA34B6C75F60AA20A229C907D4/1024x819.resizedimage

AND NOW PLEASE COMPARE STATICS!!!!


THIS GAME IS UNBALANCED WHY? Because If you can play vampire you always attack from behind, what its mean? Humans cant shoot, because they are really bad in meele combat(attacking only one target ahead, vampire can strike more targets with one action)


You suppose that players will cooperate, but if vampires cooperate always will win. I see lost only few match of vampires(mostly they played solo and attacked one against four)
You suppose that players shoot accurately, in fact, is not easy to shoot at a target that is able to move in all directions (vertical and horizontal) and hide on rooftops or if target is so far(recoil of weapons)

UNFAIR CONDITIONS:

vampires have regen healt X human have stupid few shops
vampires can heal yourself from bodies x human have few shops..(and this is not easy to find them and you can use it only onces, then human have to find other)
Vampires use their abilities in mmediately X humans are not(for example some abilites of prophets can be interrupt)


PLEASE WORK ON BALANCE OF THIS GAME, thank you.

thank you for the opportunity to express my opinion on the game

OK_Oktagon
29th Jan 2015, 09:59
It's nice of you to share your opinion. And I agree that vampires are better in low level games. But when you get better in the game, and when you play against organized humans, you'll not think that vampires are so overpowered anymore. The true fact is that humans actually are overpowered, but not very obvious in low level games because people tend to run off alone and haven't improved their aim yet. I have a massive amount of screenshots from games where humans are way superior, but I'm not going to post them all (and because they're on a different computer).

But generally, in a public game, the teams will be very balanced if the players are of equal level. In low level games, vampires will most likely win, while in competitive games, humans will in most cases win comfortably. So no, I don't think that humans need to be made stronger. Humans just need to learn teamwork which can take some time. Vampires on the side usually don't, since a 1v1 with an inexperienced human will result in a win in most cases. However, once you reach a higher skill level with humans, you'll see that you can 1v1 vampires pretty easily, depending on their skill level.

And to be honest, humans method of healing is way superior than a vampires way of healing. A vampire must kill a human before it can heal, risking the attacks of other humans aswell. A human can go heal at a healing station at any time (timer replenishes every 2nd minute if I remember correctly), and even throw a bola/hex shot a vampire that tries to attack you. That way you can continue to heal while the vampire just stands there watching you heal. And healing stations are not hard to find, they are shown on the minimap, and after playing just a few games on a map, you'll know exactly where the healing stations are.

So no, vampires are not overpowered. In a normal public game, humans and vampires should be equal. In competitive, humans will win in most cases.

Darkrami
29th Jan 2015, 10:36
Hi appreciate your opinion but i join OK_Oktagon on this. the key for human play is teamwork and organization (as for vamps but more present for humans) and i think that in terms of healing the humans are way better they have many health station and with a good team they are always at hand and secured while a vamp need to actually kill the human then hope that no other is arround him to feed. humans can cover allies while healing better than vamps. the diffrence that you see between human and vamps stats is that human are more dificult to realy master but once done they are realy strong i played against good humans that punish every wrong step you make with a vamp let alone a good team that becomes nearly untochable while covering each other.

Da_Wolv
29th Jan 2015, 10:50
Oktagon is right!

The reason why it feels to you that Vampires are overpowered is the fact that solo vampires can carry a team much more than solo humans can. If I play very early in the morning the matchmaking puts me into a match full of new players, I can get 20:1 stats with 20+k damage on my Sentinel without a problem - but you cannot do anything as a human if you get focused and your team doesn't help you - or, you cannot keep running after your clueless teammates to give them the protection they need.

Once you break the new player barrier and get paired with people that can work together well enough without having to verbalize everything (called intuition) you will find that the vampires need to actually work together too to even put a dent into the human taem

mauvo58
29th Jan 2015, 11:00
Yep, what Oktagon, Darkrami and Da_Wolv said.

You may not be a n00b, but you're still relatively new to Nosgoth. The balance shifts between classes and races as you and those around you get better. Give it some time.

I'd also like to add perfect balance doesn't really seem possible. I'm sure the devs will keep striving for it, but ultimately it doesn't matter too much because we all play Vampires and Humans in equal amounts.

Doowie
29th Jan 2015, 11:01
I've yet to see any form of unbalanced gameplay. It's all about the players you are with! If you have a bad team, then of course you will have a hard time winning.

But there are things, which can be nerfed/updated for example if the numbers being generated are more than expected. The developers will get around to adjusting those values, but it's not something that can happen instantly. It will take time/testing and more testing before we see them getting added to the live client.

Patience is required and maybe find people to play with if you find yourself losing all the time ;)

PublicIdentity02
29th Jan 2015, 11:17
Guys i still disagree with you you said wampire is stronger at start(= unabalanced game), but when you will play "endgame"(best gear?) it will be balanced..so i have to wait to "end game" ? Its really bad because game have to be balanced at every stage of level..

Its impossilbe what you say "human have to cooperate" but you always get a anonymous and random players....its iposible you s only talking about the ideal state. And when they cooperate they very often lost game. I woulike to see human who make 19 kills druing match, show me ok?

Doowie
29th Jan 2015, 11:27
I will find my game, where I had almost 20 kills as a human Hunter. If I can find the reply (not able to check on my work computer unfortunately).

--Ram--
29th Jan 2015, 11:32
No one is talking about gear. It is typical in asymmetric ranged vs melee games for the human side to becomes increasingly strong proportionally to the aiming ability and skill of the players, and when positioning errors are minimal. Most players playing Nosgoth have low accuracy and make a myriad of positioning and other mistakes and hence deal a fraction of the damage they potentially could on their human rounds.

I too could show you a gallery of scorecards showing a vampire carry round with very high damage and kills and no deaths. That proves nothing. I could also show you the same thing in many human rounds as well. None of this should be regarded as anything even remotely resembling evidence of poor balance. At most it is evidence of a strong player beating relatively weak players (wow who would of thought that could happen?). If you actually think that the balance of the game should be shifted based on the flimsy arguements you just presented, I suggest you play more and wait until you encounter a strong human premade team. After they methodically take you apart and beat your vampire rabble 30-0 you may see why these requests for human buffs are slightly ill conceived.

The problem with what you are suggesting whether you understand it or not, is that making humans stronger across the board would make games of two teams who play classes near to their full potential more likely to be one sided with humans dominating their respective rounds. This leads to games being decided based on whether the vampire team managed to kill 2 humans or 3 for the match. I personally don't see that as a fun type of match to play.

Sorry about the heated tone of this post, but it is exhausting to see so many premature requests for balance changes by players who come to snap conclusions, rather than giving the game enough time to realize that things are fairly good as they stand.

/end rant

Da_Wolv
29th Jan 2015, 11:46
Guys i still disagree with you you said wampire is stronger at start(= unabalanced game), but when you will play "endgame"(best gear?) it will be balanced..so i have to wait to "end game" ? Its really bad because game have to be balanced at every stage of level..

Its impossilbe what you say "human have to cooperate" but you always get a anonymous and random players....its iposible you s only talking about the ideal state. And when they cooperate they very often lost game. I woulike to see human who make 19 kills druing match, show me ok?

If you read my statement further up, this is exactly the crux of the issue.
Human rounds are harder when your team does not cooperate - but that is the essence of a team game!

You seem to be a very skilled vampire player, because most noob games I join, the human round is just laughably easy, because most new vampire players dont understand how most skills work and that they cannot just run up to you without resistance.
You however seem to know how it works and are stuck with people that don't - just give it some time and soon enough you will be placed into matches with players that know how to position themselves and what to do in tough situations.
Every now and again you will get idiot teams, that's just the nature of things - people are stupid :P

If you can't bear the fact that everyone around you is incompetant, I'd suggest joining or forming a team, inviting friends to play and communicate via VoiceCom.

EDIT: Adressing the gear concerns:
While I would say some classes have a poorer start-loadout as others, I think most of the start equipment is either pretty good or sometimes the best.
For instance, I would say that the Prophet, Scout, Alchemist and Tyrant all have top-noche equipment right from the start.
The rest are pretty good. The only class I'd recommend switching every ability for is the Sentinel.

absinthesize
29th Jan 2015, 11:47
you cant simply buff humans or nerf vampires

it will destroy high end balance if you do this, in fact right now humans are a bit ahead at high end games.

id take unbalanced entry over unbalanced high end play. This game his the ability to be an esport if it can gain traction, imo.

mauvo58
29th Jan 2015, 11:53
Disagree if you want, we've played a helluva lot longer than you...

There's no endgame gear. All the unlocks are side-grades and you can have any load-out you want within a few hours of starting. The default load-outs are still used in high level play. It's just about knowing how the game works and playing better.

It's not impossible for me to cooperate with my team as Humans, and I play solo. If you play solo you can use the HUD assists to help you cooperate. Keep your team-mates in LoS and make sure you're covered by theirs. As your MMR improves your team-mates will improve too, but there will always be games when the team doesn't gel.

Here's a video of Bitey getting 27k damage as a Scout. http://www.twitch.tv/bitey/c/4825624

Three_Pies
29th Jan 2015, 11:59
Guys i still disagree with you you said wampire is stronger at start(= unabalanced game), but when you will play "endgame"(best gear?) it will be balanced..so i have to wait to "end game" ? Its really bad because game have to be balanced at every stage of level..

Its impossilbe what you say "human have to cooperate" but you always get a anonymous and random players....its iposible you s only talking about the ideal state. And when they cooperate they very often lost game. I woulike to see human who make 19 kills druing match, show me ok?

http://www.imageupload.co.uk/images/2015/01/29/2014-06-2500001.jpg

Pre-nerf, but still. Doubt it would have made much of a difference in that game.

As soon as you get a team of humans that can aim well and have some spatial / situational awareness they tend to slay vamps left and right. Complaining about randoms not working together is pointless, because that's going to be the case for any small team-based game (DotA, LoL, Smite, etc.), if you want to be able to carry your team even if they're bad then this just isn't the game for you.

The thing is with these kind of threads, I find the notion that after only fifteen hours of play, someone thinks they understand the game so thoroughly and play it perfectly enough that they can suggest imbalance is actually kind of arrogant. Accept that other people might be better, and that the 'high-end' players insisting that Humans are more powerful might be right instead of just arguing against them. Humans have a harder skill-curve, that's all. Find some friends to play with if you can't wait until later levels, but be aware - there, you'll find that teams that are incompetent as vampires get punished much, much harder, and there's nothing more frustrating than not even being able to get close to the enemies to deal damage due to no use of teamwork.

Da_Wolv
29th Jan 2015, 13:06
^This.

While with a bad human team you can just bunch up and spam your AoE's, coordinationg a bad vampire team is like hell.
If you have a bad player deciding to go in by himself every time and getting slaughtered, not only is he feeding the enemy points, but it also means your attack is already reduced to a 3v4.

It works both ways.

Chaosgaertner
29th Jan 2015, 14:11
Hey,
i think its the nature off the couse that Vampires are stronger than humans. I mean they are f-ing Vampires... bloodthirsty brainless Vampires, and thats the point they have to be stronger 1v1 evrything other would not make sense.

I´m pretty new at the game and i think it really is surprisingly balanced.
I think it is not the goal as Human to get a single high score... the group is the power.
Evryone within a few games know the "strategies" so u can also easy win as human allthough you are a random Group.

The power of the wolf is the pack :)

best regards
Chaos

Ygdrasel
30th Jan 2015, 00:58
Hey im a Vampire but i can't catch up with running away human ( Weird Right ??!! )

Solutions
All Vampires should have for leg sprint
All Vampires should have some kinda BLOCK , especially Tyrant ( to bounce those Bolas out for example )
All Vampires should have Crouch ( this would be cool if would be able to Crouch and wait till that regen kicks in instead of just standing in the corner )
Vampires also should have Aiming Circles ( Jump attack Tyrant )
All Vampires should have more HP
All Vampires should have something like Blood Vision ( see blood pumping through human veins and heart ) to help them swing their claws and to tell them they are in range ( humans have their crosshair )


It is possible to catch fleeing humans.

Sprinting vampires would negate the utility of humans being able to sprint.

Need to counter some bolas? Plenty of abilities for that. Also dodging.

Jump Attack is not meant to have aiming. This balances its ability to fling you across the whole map. It's also nonsensical that such a leap could be aimed.

Some minimal degree of spatial awareness is enough to figure if you're in range or not.

Aeroscythe
14th Feb 2015, 06:20
It has come to my attention over a few weeks of playing Nosgoth that, in my humblest opinion, the vampire team seems to have a decisive advantage. While some may argue that the OP nature of one side doesn't matter because both sides are played in a match (and I would agree), it still stands that humans are less fun to play because they are so much more difficult to play successfully with.

Especially in public/random games, because humans are so reliant on coordination, this vampiric overpowering is even more visible. Frequently, a teammate will simply run off and be collapsed on by several vampires at once, meaning a free kill for the opposite team. There is no system in place to eliminate those who won't cooperate or communicate, so trollers and feeders have all the power in the world.

Of course, on a voice call with three friends, humans can put vampires in a world of hurt. But I, like many others, play this game publicly far more often.

So to help you see why I'm making this claim, allow me to go into a detailed look at the different aspects of play, and give my input on which team gets the advantage in each scenario.

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MOBILITY AND ESCAPE

This one is pretty clear. The vampire mobility method is climbing. They can gain height advantages before engaging, climb out of reach when being pursued, or cross the map with more efficiency. The human method of mobility is sprinting/dodging. Sure, dodging is nice for evading a tyrant charge or sentinel dive bomb, but as far as escaping? If a human is sprinting/dodging away, towards his teammates, a vampire who is simply attacking towards said human will move just as quickly and inevitably finish the job. Vampires, on the other hand, can pop their escape ability, round a corner, climb the nearest building, and be in the clear.

Advantage, Vampires.

EASE OF PLAY / LEARNING CURVE

Another easy choice. Vampires are melee. Humans are ranged. If a player has the skills to get within melee range with a vampire, it is VERY difficult to miss when just spamming LMB. As a human, on the other hand, skillshots and being able to hit a moving target is the key to success. Unfortunately, this is a skill that seems to be very rare for Nosgoth players.

And consider the attack styles. Humans should ideally have a great advantage at long distances, while vampires favor short distances. But Nosgoth maps are close quarters by nature, so humans never get a clear shot until vampires are up in their faces. Sneaking around corners, jumping from roofs, or swooping from above, by the time the human team gets a shot off, they are being meleed back and forth like ragdolls.

Advantage, Vampires.

1V1 POTENTIAL

Here we go again. The chances of a full health human catching a full health vampire off guard are very slim. Vampires will almost always be above and out of sight. This means they get the jump on their enemies. And this means that by time the fight begins, human ranged advantage means nothing. Sure, if a hunter can land a bola shot, or a prophet a disabling shot, a lone human can turn the tide. But that's a big if. Skillshots are just that, and if you miss it, it's over. And even if you hit it, vampires can often juke until it wears off, or pop an escape ability and wait it out. And then, the vampire can juggle melee attacks all day long, knocking the human back and turning them into a corpse because, lets be honest, who can raise a bow or aim a gun when there is a man-devouring creature raking their face?

Advantage, Vampires.

GROUP FIGHT POTENTIAL

Here is where thing are a little bit more even. In a group, humans can put up a fight, especially if the vampires engage one or two at a time. With a nicely placed fire or light bomb, and an arrow storm on top of the team, humans can definitely win group fights. But at the same time, vampires are extremely great in numbers as well. Tyrant charges and leaps, sentinel grabs, reaper jumps, summoner spawnings, and deciever clones are all fantastic disorienting tools. Vampires, engaging in a group of 4, can split up a human team and force them to attack 6-8 moving targets at once. Plus, in melee range, vampires (as mentioned earlier) can spam LMB chains, which further knock back and disorient humans. Do you know how hard it is to get off a well-aimed pistol shot as a Prophet when there is a Tyrant/Reaper/Anything hopping from one side to another, pounding you back and forth like a puppet? So yes, it's a close one, but in a 4v4 situation,

Advantage, Vampires.

HEALTH GAIN

Humans' method of gaining health is stations. Vampires eat to regain health. What does this mean? Well, humans have the convenience of being able to simply sneak to a station and heal when at low health, while vampires have to kill to get health back. Except for a few small details. First, when is a human ever going to be limping away from a teamfight successfully? As mentioned above, vampires are more mobile. Chances are, that human is mincemeat before they ever reach a station. Vampires, with greater mobility, and an ABILITY DEDICATED TO ESCAPING, can very often get out if they know when to go on the defensive. Then, with the ability to regenerate a couple hundred health, they can survive long enough to be brought a body from a teammate, or pick off a low-health human using their aforementioned 1v1 strength.

Moreover, the vampire method of health regeneration means that, when they are winning, they are winning even more. If a few vampires kill a few humans, and have 100 health left, they can regain most all of it immediately by feasting. But if a few humans kill a few vampires in an engagement, they now must look for a station. And guess what? The use of in-game voice chatting is a rarity, and nobody is going to take the time to stop and type "Let's use this station over here." That means you have several humans splitting in different directions to get health in different places, oblivious to the re-spawned team of vampires leaping back across rooftops to get their revenge.

Advantage, Vampires.

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Not really sure what else to say here. If I've missed any categories, please let me know. If you don't agree with my conclusions, or have counters to my arguments, I'd love to hear them.

In my experience, playing as humans has been far more difficult and thus far less enjoyable. Getting stuck with a team who doesn't know quite what they're doing means almost certain demise playing as humans. If you don't agree, I'd love to here why; truly, I would like a reason to enjoy playing as humans more. And once again, even though both sides play vampires in a match, what's the fun in playing both sides if one isn't fun to play?

tl;dr: Vampires OP omg nerf plz

If there's something I'm missing here, some secret to being successful with a public team of human players, let me in on the secret.

I'll be waiting.

-Aero

Aggggh
14th Feb 2015, 06:28
Only in low level pubs. Vamps are at a major disadvantage in an experienced match just because humans are ranged and have silly dps + cc.

HoopleDoople
14th Feb 2015, 07:29
Vampires absolutely outperform Humans in matches with beginners. The more experienced the players are the better the Humans match up. By the time players become high skill the Humans actually hold a decisive edge. Let me address your points specifically:

1) Mobility and Escape
The Vampires have an edge and are supposed to have it. The point of Nosgoth's assymetric combat is that the Humans try to survive the Vampire assault while Vampires try to overcome Human defenses. The flipside to this is that the Humans have accessed to ranged weaponry while the Vampires relee on melee attacks (though they have some ranged abilities).

2) Learning curve
You are absolutely right here. Vampires are easier to learn, which is part of why it takes Humans a lot of experience to catch up.

3) 1v1 potential
Here I have to disagree. Unless the Vampire starts in melee range and/or lands their main ability, they are at a disadvantage. All of the Vampires' main abilities are pretty straightforward to avoid if you have nothing else to worry about. Human DPS is very high when you can land most of your shots, plus Humans can likely get free hits in on the Vampire before he closes into melee range.

4) Group fight potential
This is pretty much the same as 1v1 battles - it really comes down to how the fight starts. The Vampires have to take minimal damage while getting in and hopefully land their abilities (kidnap, charge, etc.) on the Humans right off the bat. If they do that the Humans are at a decisive disadvantage. But the Humans should be able to avoid at least some of the Vampire abilities while inflicting damage on the approaching Vampires. Depending on the degree of success this equalizes the fight or even gives the Humans an edge.

5) Health gain
I would have to say the Humans have superior healing. Corpses are in limited supply, last only briefly, and corpse locations are revealed to the Humans. If you attempt to feed while Humans are alive, they can and usually will track you down to interrupt your feeding. Regen is nice but Vampires can only regen so much health. If you're badly hurt regen won't be nearly enough to get you healthy enough for combat. On the other hand, Humans have essentially unlimited health stations (though they can't reuse the same ones rapidly). Healing during combat is certainly tough, but with no marker it is easier than feeding on corpses in combat, assuming the health station is in close proximity. Humans also have a few healing abilities.


I promise you once you get better allies your experience will change for the better as Humans. Good aim and a basic understanding of teamwork go a long way. But if you can find allies that understand positioning, spacing, and regrouping you'll be amazed at what your team can accomplish.

PencileyePirate
14th Feb 2015, 07:41
They only seem overpowered until you learn how to counter them and their individual abilities. After that vampires are typically the weaker faction since humans' range can make engaging very difficult.

Khalith
14th Feb 2015, 09:37
The vampires have an easier learning curve than the humans, that's true. Every poster that is new to the game says vampires are overpowered consistently without fail, most of us thought the same when we started, then when you start playing the game more you see the power of the humans. Better dps, better aoe, and better CC. Once the humans get good at aiming, shooting the vamps before they get close, dodging the major abilities (kidnap, choking haze, charges and jumps, etc.) and covering each other, they're completely unbeatable.

Necro71
14th Feb 2015, 11:11
Vampires are op when both teams are beginners. Later when players lern that its essential for humans to stick together and cover each other, vamps have dissadvatantage. Thats becouse they need to synchronize theyr attacks, and thats much more difficult to do as a team (make it randoms or pre-made) than defending.

Aeroscythe
14th Feb 2015, 18:34
Thanks, guys. Your conclusions actually make a lot of since. I am rank 13, and I imagine I am often playing with people lower ranks than me, so I can see why vampires would have the advantage earlier on. I look forward to the later ranks when it is a more even matchup, and more tactics and communication are necessary and utilized.

Sorry if I've brought up a topic that has been beaten to death already. Appreciate the help here.

Ygdrasel
14th Feb 2015, 21:26
Thanks, guys. Your conclusions actually make a lot of since. I am rank 13, and I imagine I am often playing with people lower ranks than me, so I can see why vampires would have the advantage earlier on. I look forward to the later ranks when it is a more even matchup, and more tactics and communication are necessary and utilized.

Sorry if I've brought up a topic that has been beaten to death already. Appreciate the help here.

Also, in regard to "humans splitting in different directions to get health in different places", every map has its preferred camp spots for humans. Over time, players will basically memorize the nearest stations to those spots and reduce the splitting up issue. Later on, you'll all converge on the same station and cover each other while you heal.

GenFeelGood
15th Feb 2015, 05:59
Vampires seem superior at first because almost everyone starts off playing this game solo, and the vampires are just better at solo play than humans. Once it clicks that team play is the best way to play, the humans have the same (if not greater) chance of dominating the round.

Khalith
15th Feb 2015, 06:31
One thing to add to this though, is that the more organized team will generally win regardless of the side they're playing. It's just the specifics of the overall meta (i.e. humans dominating at higher brackets) doesn't become apparent until you start getting games where both teams are organized and know what they're doing.