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View Full Version : MISC. Premades, Premades Everywhere



TendrilSavant
28th Jan 2015, 05:47
It seems like most matches I enter are against parties these days, and for some reason I don't think that they are getting split up for "balance."

Also, in-game match making needs some work put into it. Why is it that the human side gets priority when new players join? Earlier I had a game where most people left, leaving 2 humans v 1 vampire. Needless to say it was soon 4 humans to the 1 vampire before others joined. And while the slots filling wasn't an issue, the balancing was.

--Ram--
28th Jan 2015, 05:59
You are right on the parties not getting split, I've yet to see it happen more than twice since its re-implementation. I can't say I'm particularly sad about that either.

Can agree the slot filling order is wonky as you say, 3v2 matches becoming 4v2 shouldn't happen.

Phytik
28th Jan 2015, 07:04
I play this game with my friend only but we sometimes have to play against a 3-man or 4-man party so I understand your pain.
We basically talk about life and not about the game so much. But I have the feeling the partys we have to play against are fully into the game and it gets very difficult to win.
I would appreciate a matchmaking like:
1. Team: 2 man-party
so the 2. Team needs a 2 man party.
1. Team: 2 man-party
2. Team: 3 man-party.
1 of the 3 man-party goes to the 1. team.
1. Team: 2 man-party
2. Team: 4 man-party
2 of the 4 man-party goes to the 1. team. A new 2 man-party joins the 2. team.

That kind of stuff I would like. (Btw. I remember that there was a party split back in the days)

absinthesize
28th Jan 2015, 07:43
they need to keep/reimplement splitting premades if its vs pugs

no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Da_Wolv
28th Jan 2015, 08:16
I think the problem is that once parties entered a lobby, they are no longer in the matchmaking pool.
This should be changed, so that parties sitting in a lobby could be re-located to other lobbies for balance - alongside this I'd suggest giving the intermission a bit more time so that the system can run properly and people have time to chat.

FireWorks_
28th Jan 2015, 09:12
I think the problem is that once parties entered a lobby, they are no longer in the matchmaking pool.
This should be changed, so that parties sitting in a lobby could be re-located to other lobbies for balance - alongside this I'd suggest giving the intermission a bit more time so that the system can run properly and people have time to chat.

Jackpot.
Scrapping the whole lobby system in favour of a queue. Said it before when the whole matchmaking was discussed but they wont let go of the lobbies. In this point the great saviour matchmaking patch was a big let down.

(Would need a rethinking of the monetizing of banners...)

Nurgor
28th Jan 2015, 12:05
Ok Psyonix and SE, you should see by now, that your MM still sucks concerning parties vs randoms, just now again i had the great pleasure(sarcasm) to play against 3 premades with 3 other random solo guys, stuff like that shouldnt happen, premades have a lot of advantages over randoms, communication, coordination, tactics possibility, etc. My point is, give me the damn option to search for games, where i dont have to play against premades!! i dont care how long it takes to find a game, i just dont want to play aginst ppl with that much advantages..... especially if some incompetent ppl get on my team too -.-' also give me the option to not join into a game where one team is clearly winning....annoying as ****

FireWorks_
28th Jan 2015, 12:49
Lovely to check twitch and see them have a laugh while ******* the 2 solo players left. Go go Mr.85%

"Look how they run!*lol*" <- alienating the community one by one!

Why is it so hard to just play against eachother?

lucinvampire
28th Jan 2015, 13:31
LOVE IT :thumb: :D

But yeah such a big issue with parties - the ones that are good anyway that don't get split. I tend to play in a party, from 2 to 4 players but we are just mates that have a laugh, no strategy, team speak thing or anything, we usually get nailed by the opponents...but yeah it can be a lot meh when you're against proper premades that stomp you bad. That said on occasion our party has been split - but that's been once in like the last few weeks.

I'm really hoping the matchmaking system continues to get worked on big time.

mauvo58
28th Jan 2015, 13:50
When I'm losing I wonder if the other side is pre-made, but it's just a guess. When my team of randoms is winning we'll often be accused of being a pre-made. So it might be nice to have some visual indication of the parties in the game. It would stop a lot of people getting unnecessarily frustrated. On the other hand it might make it even harder for pre-mades to find matches because all the solo players would just look for another lobby. No bad thing for solo players though.

Cristari
28th Jan 2015, 19:05
wow started a thread on this yesterday and everyone overlooks it for this one! Sheesh!

netmota
29th Jan 2015, 12:39
It is urgent to establish a game mode esclusively for those who want to play in party (party mode - premade vs premade). not all people are willing to play against a party. and there is no alternative, in online deadmatch people are literally forced to accept playing against parties in a place that should be in a randomized order. I think that disband or split the partis is not the solution, the solution is to create a unique and fairly mode for those who just want to play that way. As a closed alpha player i have been see mixed players and teamates members breaking the fundamental balance of the game with each others with lvl 40 with the sole purpose to win and accuse others for rage quiters which is hilarious. So i think it is also necessary to break the bad habits that community acquired and make the game a more attractive experience for the whole community, not just for a group of people but to everyone that wants to enjoy the game.

SquirrelInDaSky
29th Jan 2015, 13:10
The idea with spearate modes for solo players and parties is a good one. The only issue is a player base. If it's too small, there will be problems with matchmaking.
I would suggest 2 search patterns: 1 for solo players and 1 for both parties and solo players. If you are alone and searching in the first category takes too long, a notification pops up and the player is given an option to either stay in solo que and keep searching or join the party lobby.

Obisher
29th Jan 2015, 14:12
I would suggest 2 search patterns: 1 for solo players and 1 for both parties and solo players. If you are alone and searching in the first category takes too long, a notification pops up and the player is given an option to either stay in solo que and keep searching or join the party lobby.

I like this idea!

Ysanoire
29th Jan 2015, 20:50
The idea with spearate modes for solo players and parties is a good one. The only issue is a player base. If it's too small, there will be problems with matchmaking.
I would suggest 2 search patterns: 1 for solo players and 1 for both parties and solo players. If you are alone and searching in the first category takes too long, a notification pops up and the player is given an option to either stay in solo que and keep searching or join the party lobby.

This sounds good until you're in a party of 3 and wait forever until someone is generous, desperate or oblivious enough to enter your queue.

mauvo58
29th Jan 2015, 22:41
As a solo player I wouldn't mind joining a party of 3 vs a party of 4. Assuming the party of 3 are friendly of course. Maybe that can be an option.

TendrilSavant
3rd Feb 2015, 02:50
Please remove parties until you fix the bug that doesn't split parties. I constantly get put in or start in matches where I am fighting a party of 3 with 300+ experience each and all of my teammates experience is around 20+ hours.

I've talked to many stompers this week and they all give me the same reasoning: "I was rekted when I started," and "That's how all competitive games are." This is the type of mentality that kills niche F2P titles like Nosgoth.


The industry standard party system we have here doesn't work in Nosgoth; due to it's asymmetry. There's just too many variables in player skill and knowledge for any sort of balance to work between friends and randoms. From my experience, two veteran players partied up (even without communication) can clean house; any more and it's a slaughter.

I understand the want to play with friends, but I cannot condone a system that allows constant matches to end in 60-10. Why can't pub lobbies be solo queue only? Why can't parties be set up only against other parties?

FireWorks_
3rd Feb 2015, 08:43
Please remove parties until you fix the bug that doesn't split parties. I constantly get put in or start in matches where I am fighting a party of 3 with 300+ experience each and all of my teammates experience is around 20+ hours.

I've talked to many stompers this week and they all give me the same reasoning: "I was rekted when I started," and "That's how all competitive games are." This is the type of mentality that kills niche F2P titles like Nosgoth.


The industry standard party system we have here doesn't work in Nosgoth; due to it's asymmetry. There's just too many variables in player skill and knowledge for any sort of balance to work between friends and randoms. From my experience, two veteran players partied up (even without communication) can clean house; any more and it's a slaughter.

I understand the want to play with friends, but I cannot condone a system that allows constant matches to end in 60-10. Why can't pub lobbies be solo queue only? Why can't parties be set up only against other parties?

So Truth, many correct. WOW!

Premades: Alienating the community 4 at a time!

SquirrelInDaSky
3rd Feb 2015, 08:53
[SIZE=5]Please remove parties until you fix the bug that doesn't split parties. I constantly get put in or start in matches where I am fighting a party of 3 with 300+ experience each and all of my teammates experience is around 20+ hours.
?

What's a point of playing a TEAM game if you can't choose teammates. I don't want to play without someone i can rely on backing me up. I don't need no scrublords ruining my games.

Nurgor
3rd Feb 2015, 09:25
What's a point of playing a TEAM game if you can't choose teammates. I don't want to play without someone i can rely on backing me up. I don't need no scrublords ruining my games.

Read-->think-->write; noone(at least i think xD) wants to ban parties from publics, we want seperate lobbies for parties and randoms/solo-players, where parties get matched according to their MMR and Battle experience same with randoms; Meaning Parties that have approximately the same MMR/battle experience get matched also depending on their groupmembers, so that in the best case its 2+3 vs 2+3. But hey there are also parties of 2 or 4 ppl. --> easy solution for this=give soloplayers a button which lets them decide if they want to play with/against premades or NOT but also then the best case should be 2+2+1 vs 2+2+1 or 4+1 vs 4+1; easy as that.

Khalith
3rd Feb 2015, 09:39
I'm going to suggest my way of dealing with premades until the party splitting and matchmaking is sorted out:
Deal with premades by not dealing with them at all. If there is a premade in the lobby, just leave and find a new one, queue a diff. region or wait a few minutes for the game you were in to fill and find a new one in that region. Playing against a team of perfectly coordinated players (whether they are vamp or human) while you and three randoms are trying to work together is utterly boring to me. When that happens I'd rather just leave the lobby and find a new game or take a short break!

Ysanoire
3rd Feb 2015, 09:57
[SIZE=5]Please remove parties until you fix the bug that doesn't split parties. I constantly get put in or start in matches where I am fighting a party of 3 with 300+ experience each and all of my teammates experience is around 20+ hours.


I hate when that happens too, but I see it as a general matchmaking issue, nothing to do with parties. Those 20h newbs shouldn't be there in the first place, you should be getting teammates adequate to your opponents.

I've been stomped by premades, I have stomped premades with randoms or other premades and every other option that there is. Let's face it, on every continent there are about 3-5 teams that will wreck everything when they get together. Most parties are beatable as long as both sides contain similarly skilled players.

Being in a party doesn't even mean you cooperate. If someone on my friends list joins/invites me, but we don't even have a means to communicate is it magially going to give us bonuses?


Read-->think-->write; noone(at least i think xD) wants to ban parties from publics,

Except the comment he was replying to suggested temporarily disabling parties.

Khalith
3rd Feb 2015, 10:04
Being in a party doesn't even mean you cooperate. If someone on my friends list joins/invites me, but we don't even have a means to communicate is it magially going to give us bonuses?

Depends on how much you've played with that person. There are a few people I partner with regularly and we know each other's styles pretty well and work together accordingly, i.e. one person I group with plays one hell of a scout so when he does I usually go alchemist or hunter and focus on keeping him covered while he wrecks the vampires with charged shots. Another that plays a really good alchemist and is awesome at covering and wearing the vamps down so I tend to pick scout or hunter to finish off the ones he softens up when they try to run etc.

All of this is done without any voice chat and just experience playing together.

Ysanoire
3rd Feb 2015, 10:20
It's true, there is that. But chances are, if you really WANTED to, you could do the same with any random player you meet if you watch them for a bit because YOU are a good player with an ability to adapt.

TendrilSavant
3rd Feb 2015, 13:51
What's a point of playing a TEAM game if you can't choose teammates. I don't want to play without someone i can rely on backing me up. I don't need no scrublords ruining my games.


I hate when that happens too, but I see it as a general matchmaking issue, nothing to do with parties. Those 20h newbs shouldn't be there in the first place, you should be getting teammates adequate to your opponents.
You guys missed the point. Parties are rarely getting split, meaning balance is worse for it. Most players with 100+ hours of experience only party up for the reason of not getting paired with scrubs, so what does this do? The match making puts all the fresh off the recruit list people against those parties.

EDIT: Also worth noting, some players have stated in game that they created smurf accounts to get around party splitting for balance; so at best that method is just a bandaid fix.

notacobra
3rd Feb 2015, 15:03
I think there's an obvious solution many of you are missing;

Keep lobbies.
keep matchmaking.

However;
if you have a premade, an average of your MMR/rating/experience will be taken, and you will stay in queue until you find another premade with similar averages.

yes, that could mean a premade of 4 ends up against you with your premade of 2 and 2 pugs, but that's substantially better than the alternative, plus it means you know your average skill is similar to their entire premade.

Da_Wolv
3rd Feb 2015, 15:14
That's exactly what is happening currently, at least to me.
To be fair, most of the time its a teammate of mine with 2 pugs against a 4 stack of new players - which then get horribly murdered - but at least you can see the Matchmaking making an effort.

cmstache
3rd Feb 2015, 15:37
What's a point of playing a TEAM game if you can't choose teammates. I don't want to play without someone i can rely on backing me up. I don't need no scrublords ruining my games.

You aren't the only person that feels this way. There have been just as many players who have left the game due to not being able to party up as players who don't like it, if not more. And, honestly, now is the first time that party has ever worked more than 25% of the time. You can't honestly test balance of a team game without teams (the standard).

Tetrajoule
3rd Feb 2015, 20:19
Seriously, just because of this stupid mmr I have to face premade after premade, I cannot win alone, even if they fit in my mmr range(which they ******* don't it's a team vs a single player mmr) I have no way in having a fair game.
And why do I get forced into the same room thousand times when i intentionally leave it, just flag me that i left that specific room and find me another, is that so hard to code? Is it such a huge task to implement a damn simple request from the server?

Why can't we still see the mmr, why is there no server list where players skill is shown and compared to mine, like natural selection 2 for example where I can immediately see if the room has players above, similar or lower skill rating than myself.

I don't see any point of having this ridiculous system forcing me to face a team just because the developers have to make something 'different'.

sorry for the harsh words, but it is a pain in the ass

Sosei23q542314
3rd Feb 2015, 20:27
Idk This is kinda bad atm Everytime u join Q its like okey we have game for u , u join and see ur team 2= En 20. So idk game wants me to carry or smth ?

Sirfy1
3rd Feb 2015, 20:50
Only time this has ever been an issue for me is clans partying up and using teamspeak to stomp everyone. Doesn't happen often. I have no problem with friends who just like playing with eachother. I don't even think half of them use TS or anything.

I've played quite a few games with 1-2 friends in my party. We never communicate via mics, we don't strategize, we play as we would at any other time. Nobody even knows unless we say it. Hell, half the time we get stomped.
I think it's less about people playing in parties together (unless it's those clannies I mentioned in the beginning) and more about people actually knowing HOW to play as a team. 4 random people that know how the teamwork in this game works and actually DO it can play just as well as any party of friends.
Another huge factor is ragey kids who leave mid-match for a slew of bad reasons. THAT imbalances the game more than anything, imo. And these same people are the ones who will never learn that teamwork or how to improve as a player because they simply leave when they're losing. I've learned quite alot from getting my butt handed to me multiple times.

Oh, and don't assume that because I do play with friends upon occasion think that I'm against any party fixes. I don't mind the party being split for balance (Even though half the time it actually made the balance worse lol) cause we've had just as much fun killing eachother (if not more-so sometimes) than being on the same team.