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PencileyePirate
28th Jan 2015, 00:29
Some things bother me about Reaver right now. Here are the thoughts off the top of my head, take them or leave them.


Choking Haze is rarely against skilled players because they can often dodge before the explosion. Perhaps slightly reduce time between grenade landing and poison explosion? Or as an alternative: maybe increase initial explosion damage but reduce the damage over time?


Savage Pounce isn't particularly useful against skilled humans for the following reason: sweeping kick is vastly more reliable, and human teammates will immediately bola/hex/focus-fire the pouncing vampire. A good vampire will cancel the incapacitate period to escape and rely on initial hit damage, but the distance needed to hit max damage is much too far. By reducing that range requirement it will become easier to use reliably.


Leap attack feels like a weak melee. I would love Bitey's suggestion to add wall-running or increased mobility of some sort, but if that doesn't happen it's going to need either a damage buff or a reduction on range needed to hit max damage.


I still think Evasion duration really belongs at 4sec, but at least bump it to 3.5s instead of 3s.

TheDreamcrusher
28th Jan 2015, 02:11
3. Leap Attack - I have been using Leap Attack to do a slight stagger rather than damage. Maybe as a buff Leap Attack could do a full knockdown to ground for a longer recovery, similar to Pounce.

HoopleDoople
28th Jan 2015, 04:28
Choking Haze is rarely against skilled players because they can often dodge before the explosion. Perhaps slightly reduce time between grenade landing and poison explosion? Or as an alternative: maybe increase initial explosion damage but reduce the damage over time?

When Choking Haze is used prior to the vampire assault the enemies obviously aren't going to stay in it long and may avoid it entirely. But the fact that it forces humans to pay attention to it and move away creates a small opening for the vampires. If Choking Haze is saved for mid-battle (or recharges) it is a lot easier to land actual damage. Plus enemies dodging Choking Haze are probably not shooting up the vampires for a second or two. Thus I personally believe Choking Haze is in a well balanced state as is.


Savage Pounce isn't particularly useful against skilled humans for the following reason: sweeping kick is vastly more reliable, and human teammates will immediately bola/hex/focus-fire the pouncing vampire. A good vampire will cancel the incapacitate period to escape and rely on initial hit damage, but the distance needed to hit max damage is much too far. By reducing that range requirement it will become easier to use reliably.

I unfortunately lack both Savage Pounce and Sweeping Kick (Sweeping Kick is high on my list to acquire though) so I lack sufficient perspective for a solid analysis. Probably a good idea to give this a look.


Leap attack feels like a weak melee. I would love Bitey's suggestion to add wall-running or increased mobility of some sort, but if that doesn't happen it's going to need either a damage buff or a reduction on range needed to hit max damage.

Something should be done to buff it certainly. My Reaver reward bags refuse to give me anything else so it would be nice for the skill to be somewhat viable.


I still think Evasion duration really belongs at 4sec, but at least bump it to 3.5s instead of 3s.

Another option would be a minor buff to wall climb speed and/or move speed while active (this would admittedly step on the toes of Haste a bit). Evasion definitely feels like its current second tier to Shadow Step.


Even after getting used to new SS activation time ... I don't think it was necessary. Why was this done? Were there people complaining about it? My impression is that it was done to bring it in line w/ the already over-nerfed Evasion.

I didn't get to try it before, but the Reaver remains the most reliably useful vampire and Shadow Step his best overall ability in the category. Any faster and Shadow Step would really be a complete freebie of an escape.

PencileyePirate
28th Jan 2015, 04:57
3. Leap Attack - I have been using Leap Attack to do a slight stagger rather than damage. Maybe as a buff Leap Attack could do a full knockdown to ground for a longer recovery, similar to Pounce.

I think the aim should be to differentiate Leap Attack from the Pounce attacks, not make it more similar.


When Choking Haze is used prior to the vampire assault the enemies obviously aren't going to stay in it long and may avoid it entirely. But the fact that it forces humans to pay attention to it and move away creates a small opening for the vampires. If Choking Haze is saved for mid-battle (or recharges) it is a lot easier to land actual damage. Plus enemies dodging Choking Haze are probably not shooting up the vampires for a second or two.

I agree with you, but think Smoke can do all of these things [often more effectively] because it blocks line-of-sight. My suggestions were aimed at getting more chances of damage against higher skill humans.


I didn't get to try it before, but the Reaver remains the most reliably useful vampire and Shadow Step his best overall ability in the category. Any faster and Shadow Step would really be a complete freebie of an escape.

It's nice to hear from newer players ... sometimes I end up too biased towards how things used to be. I'm beginning to agree with you on this one.

TheDreamcrusher
30th Jan 2015, 04:20
I think you may have misunderstood me. I meant to say that Leap Attack should function as is but upon making contact it would knock a player to the ground, similar to being dropped by a Sentinel.

--Ram--
30th Jan 2015, 05:00
I think you may have misunderstood me. I meant to say that Leap Attack should function as is but upon making contact it would knock a player to the ground, similar to being dropped by a Sentinel.

I think that could be good. At the moment you stagger yourself as much as the target, and you line yourself up to take easy hits during the recovery. Recently I have been running leap attack to level an MI and to be honest I rarely use it over just melee/charged attacks. I find it more useful as an escape than an attacking ability. It is nice occasionally when you need to close a gap quickly mid fight but other than that I don't like it.

Razaiim
30th Jan 2015, 07:14
I have to agree that the Reaver is the best vampire all around since he doesn't have the weaknesses of the Sentinel and Tyrant, and better escapes than the deceiver. For the majority of players choking haze can be used identically to smoke bomb, but does require a different mind set to be effective at higher levels, E.g. using it when Humans are already distracted or dodge is on CD, and I don't think that's a bad thing, so I'm ok with leaving the bombs as they are. I do think Leap attack should be more different from the other pounces, and once Idea I have is knocking down the human on hit, but rolling forward past him, resulting in you being behind the target as he recovers. You're trading the damage from the pounces for a positioning advantage.

PencileyePirate
30th Jan 2015, 18:13
I've changed my opinion on the SS activation time, and edited it out of the original post.


I think you may have misunderstood me. I meant to say that Leap Attack should function as is but upon making contact it would knock a player to the ground, similar to being dropped by a Sentinel.

I realize what you meant ... but pounces already knockdown+incapacitate, so I think adding knockdown to leap would just make it more similar.

Cristari
30th Jan 2015, 21:32
I think you may have misunderstood me. I meant to say that Leap Attack should function as is but upon making contact it would knock a player to the ground, similar to being dropped by a Sentinel.

I agree with this. I love Leap attack and use it all the time more so now I have a MI for it.


I think that could be good. At the moment you stagger yourself as much as the target, and you line yourself up to take easy hits during the recovery. Recently I have been running leap attack to level an MI and to be honest I rarely use it over just melee/charged attacks. I find it more useful as an escape than an attacking ability. It is nice occasionally when you need to close a gap quickly mid fight but other than that I don't like it.

I prefer to attack with it as it is awesome at picking off the players at low health in a group leaving you to focus on the others around them, A Chocking haze before attacking can get you a lot of kills. I mostly like Leap Attack for the Reaver's low profile when moving it makes him hard to spot if you are clever with your approach.

TheDreamcrusher
30th Jan 2015, 21:51
I realize what you meant ... but pounces already knockdown+incapacitate, so I think adding knockdown to leap would just make it more similar.

I gotcha. I was thinking that if it knocked a human down or did heavy stagger it would give you a situational advantage, but that does seem like a very limited change and would be very similar to Tyrant Throw. So I thought about it for a few minutes and here are some new suggestions.

Leap Attack
1. Razaiim had a cool sounding idea where Leap Attack would strike and put you past a target, sort of like a fly-by attack.
2. I was thinking Leap Attack could be changed to Dash Attack where if you're close enough when you activate it you move *very* quickly to a human and rapidly strike 3 or so times for say 300 damage. Works similar to Shadow Step but only moves you to a target and you're not invulnerable while you move. I'm imagining it to be a way to do unavoidable damage to a human as long as you're alive and don't cancel. Any of the typical incapacitation moves like Bola or Hex Shot would stop the strikes.
3. Vampires don't have any abilities, that I'm aware of, that incapacitate humans without exposing themselves. Pounce, Kidnap/Abduct, Throw, Dominate Mind all leave a vampire vulnerable. It might be nice to have a move that actually stuns or dazes and this could replace Leap Attack.

Haste
I'd like to hear what other people have to say about Haste because it seems like it's an alright ability but often find myself wishing it were better in some way. For one, is it intentional that Haste halves the distance you cover with each melee strike? I really dislike that. As far as charging melee attacks, I'm not sure but without testing it doesn't seem to improve the speed at which a reaver readies charged melee strikes. Granted it's only 25% but I feel like if you give up your escape ability slot you should be trading for some serious power. It is nice that it stacks with Bloodlust and Bloodlust effects on weapons though. Just want to hear other people's thoughts on it.

Shadow Smoke
I'd like it if the area of effect were larger. Anyone else?

Khalith
30th Jan 2015, 22:17
I feel as though Reaver is strong enough as is and doesn't need any more buffs. Only thing I can agree on is that haste shouldn't halve the damage you travel.

Sanguise23
30th Jan 2015, 22:30
you sacrifice the knock down and extra damage for the mobility and zero charge time (when going into crawly mode) i dont think this should change

TendrilSavant
30th Jan 2015, 23:56
Choking Haze is rarely against skilled players because they can often dodge before the explosion. Perhaps slightly reduce time between grenade landing and poison explosion? Or as an alternative: maybe increase initial explosion damage but reduce the damage over time?


Are you using the "bounce" trick? Where you bounce CH/Smoke at the edge of a roof so that it triggers immediately after it hits the ground? It essentially turn CH into its pre-nerfed state with the added drawback of not being able to go as far (plus messing up causes a dud bomb on a roof). It's very situational, but useful.

I actually would like to hear from the devs whether or not they intend to keep this unintended mechanic in.

Ygdrasel
31st Jan 2015, 02:15
I mostly use leap attack to

A) To close distance to a fleeing/injured human and finish them off with melee

and

B) Increased mobility via the running crawl

so its damage seems fine to me. Couldn't say anything on Savage Pounce (never trusted my own aim enough to try it) but Choking Haze works fine in the right situation.