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View Full Version : VAMPIRES Bullets/Arrows/Bolts stagger Vampires



Otsonen
27th Jan 2015, 20:49
Vampire melee attacks stagger Humans, yet bullets do nothing to interrupt or even slow down Vampire attacks or movement.

Thus, Reavers, Tyrants, and pretty much all of the Vampire classes can continue mashing their melee attacks while wading through a sea of projectiles. Will they die still? Yes. But is it a fair and realistic system? No.

I'm not talking about a full interruption of attacks, I'm just suggesting that maybe projectiles should affect the time between attacks, the range of the attacks (which I feel is too far) and movement speed just a little.

For example, as a Pouncing Reaver gets hit with projectiles, the range should decrease for every hit he takes. Not by a ton, but by at least a little. The time between attacks when being hit by bullets should increase by say 2% for each bullet.

I feel like this system would greatly improve the balancing of the two factions.

Thanks for reading,
Otsonen

Ysanoire
27th Jan 2015, 21:48
Bullets do affect your speed a little.

There's an explanation in this thread:
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=149190

GenFeelGood
27th Jan 2015, 21:53
Would you enjoy not being able to fire your weapon because the vampire melee can momentarily stun you with ever hit, making it to where you are basically doomed once they close the gap?

Otsonen
27th Jan 2015, 22:53
Would you enjoy not being able to fire your weapon because the vampire melee can momentarily stun you with ever hit, making it to where you are basically doomed once they close the gap?

Er, that's what the game is like at the moment...And I'm not asking for Vampire attacks to stagger...I'm asking for Human projectiles to slow down attack speed and attack range, as the movement speed debuff is meaningless because when Reaver's mash their melee they still dash forward quite a lot, and the range of the dash can be charged up as well.

Otsonen
27th Jan 2015, 22:56
Bullets do affect your speed a little.

There's an explanation in this thread:
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=149190

I understand this, but because bullets have no effect on the range of melee attacks, the movement speed debuff is meaningless because if you just keep charging and mashing your melee, you can just stick to Humans with relative ease.

Razaiim
27th Jan 2015, 23:01
They do affect the range on melee attacks. It's only notable when they are charging a melee attack while you're shooting however, as that's when you see the range reduced, in melee it does little.

Second, the pounce can actually be interrupted in mid air when a damage threshold is reached (I know it can be done with a single multi cannon shot, so 75*3) which causes him to tumble through the arc and face plant, and many other skills can be interrupted via damage.

Vampmaster
27th Jan 2015, 23:05
Er, that's what the game is like at the moment...And I'm not asking for Vampire attacks to stagger...I'm asking for Human projectiles to slow down attack speed and attack range, as the movement speed debuff is meaningless because when Reaver's mash their melee they still dash forward quite a lot, and the range of the dash can be charged up as well.

Is this because the vampires seem overpowered to you? It seems that way to lot of new players, but the game is designed so that vampires are more powerful one on one. The idea is to stick with your teammates and not let the vampires get close enough to do damage. If a vampire is attacking your teammate, it's made itself an easy target for you and if a vampire has just attacked you, duck behind one of your less damaged teammates.

Otsonen
28th Jan 2015, 00:40
They do affect the range on melee attacks. It's only notable when they are charging a melee attack while you're shooting however, as that's when you see the range reduced, in melee it does little.

Second, the pounce can actually be interrupted in mid air when a damage threshold is reached (I know it can be done with a single multi cannon shot, so 75*3) which causes him to tumble through the arc and face plant, and many other skills can be interrupted via damage.


Thanks for info. The problem is that I'm not too concerned about skills being slowed or interrupted, I'm worried about the basic attacks. I wasn't aware of the charged range reduction, but imo the melee attacks have so much range that charging isn't required to keep up with Humans, even when they are rolling away and slowing you with bullets.



Is this because the vampires seem overpowered to you? It seems that way to lot of new players, but the game is designed so that vampires are more powerful one on one. The idea is to stick with your teammates and not let the vampires get close enough to do damage. If a vampire is attacking your teammate, it's made itself an easy target for you and if a vampire has just attacked you, duck behind one of your less damaged teammates.

I understand the tactics involved with the two races, and I've been playing for quite some time. My problem is that even when you play the humans correctly and focus the vampires and protect your teammates, all of the Vampire classes can still wade through your bullets and mash their melee attacks enough to kill one teammate.

I understand that some abilities were implemented to aid with this, but if 4 Humans can't stop 1 Reaver from killing a teammate with just basic attacks, I think we have a problem.

GenFeelGood
28th Jan 2015, 01:44
I understand the tactics involved with the two races, and I've been playing for quite some time. My problem is that even when you play the humans correctly and focus the vampires and protect your teammates, all of the Vampire classes can still wade through your bullets and mash their melee attacks enough to kill one teammate.

I understand that some abilities were implemented to aid with this, but if 4 Humans can't stop 1 Reaver from killing a teammate with just basic attacks, I think we have a problem.

Believe me when I say that in the higher level play, 1 vampire using just basic melee and going head on alone against just 1 human is an even fight (if not more in the human's favor).

TendrilSavant
28th Jan 2015, 02:09
My problem is that even when you play the humans correctly and focus the vampires and protect your teammates, all of the Vampire classes can still wade through your bullets and mash their melee attacks enough to kill one teammate.
But, they'll usually die in the process. Granted your experience may differ from mine, but in my experience all humans classes can easily 1v1 any vampire that is just spamming melee. What your proposing sounds like a seriously frustrating experience while playing vampires; Stopping Power and humans focus fire is already frustrating enough.


I understand that some abilities were implemented to aid with this, but if 4 Humans can't stop 1 Reaver from killing a teammate with just basic attacks, I think we have a problem.
Here is where you're views of balance differs greatly from most veteran players. If melee was weaker than it is now you would only be able to rely on abilities, most of which are easily dodge-able with some practice.

That said, if Stopping Power numbers get adjusted; melee travel distance could be slightly shortened so that melee spamming isn't so easy.

DesolatedMaggot
28th Jan 2015, 03:36
I understand that some abilities were implemented to aid with this, but if 4 Humans can't stop 1 Reaver from killing a teammate with just basic attacks, I think we have a problem.

A single Hunter firing his crossbow will out damage a single Reaver spamming LMB. If 4 of you cannot out DPS 1 LMB spamming Reaver the problem is on you and your team. Sorry if that sounds harsh but it's true. Especially more true if you stop ignoring abilities like Bola, Hex Shot which will stop his assault dead in its tracks. Or even damage abilities which will up the DPS output of anyone firing on the Reaver.

Otsonen
28th Jan 2015, 03:49
But, they'll usually die in the process. Granted your experience may differ from mine, but in my experience all humans classes can easily 1v1 any vampire that is just spamming melee. What your proposing sounds like a seriously frustrating experience while playing vampires; Stopping Power and humans focus fire is already frustrating enough.


Here is where you're views of balance differs greatly from most veteran players. If melee was weaker than it is now you would only be able to rely on abilities, most of which are easily dodge-able with some practice.

That said, if Stopping Power numbers get adjusted; melee travel distance could be slightly shortened so that melee spamming isn't so easy.

If abilities are what you rely on for tactics against the Humans, then why is it a Tyrant with the Berserk perk can just run around spamming his melee attacks and still take out 1-3 Humans if he's lucky? Then what if the enemy team has 2 or more Tyrants? Tyrants have to be focused down, because they hit like trucks, soak up insane damage, and too much melee travel distance. But what happens when you all try to focus down the Tyrant? Reavers pounce you, Sentinels kidnap you, and Deceivers backstab you all while you're being thrashed to death. This is the scenario that I am frequently running into at level 15 and it really, really bothers me.

There is an element to player skill level, but at earlier levels, Vampires involve much less tactics than Humans because bullets do hardly anything to impede them aside from doing damage.

I'm very sure that if you look at a giant list of match results, there are far more Vampire victories than Human victories at levels 1-15

absinthesize
28th Jan 2015, 07:46
this is a post from someone who hasnt played/learned enough, and probably gets grouped with bad people.

quite simply you cant carry a team on your own, if your teamates are not pulling there weight, its gonna hurt.

so maybe your doing everything correct, maybe not. but your change would not promote balance.

--Ram--
28th Jan 2015, 18:33
If abilities are what you rely on for tactics against the Humans, then why is it a Tyrant with the Berserk perk can just run around spamming his melee attacks and still take out 1-3 Humans if he's lucky? Then what if the enemy team has 2 or more Tyrants? Tyrants have to be focused down, because they hit like trucks, soak up insane damage, and too much melee travel distance. But what happens when you all try to focus down the Tyrant? Reavers pounce you, Sentinels kidnap you, and Deceivers backstab you all while you're being thrashed to death. This is the scenario that I am frequently running into at level 15 and it really, really bothers me.

There is an element to player skill level, but at earlier levels, Vampires involve much less tactics than Humans because bullets do hardly anything to impede them aside from doing damage.

I'm very sure that if you look at a giant list of match results, there are far more Vampire victories than Human victories at levels 1-15

Frankly everything you describe is what happens in low level play and it is frustrating but entirely avoidable if humans play closer to their potential. New human teams tend to make about every mistake possible simultaneously and then claim the problem is balance. Human teams that make few mistakes and aim well can be incredibly difficult to break or even approach. Spend time focusing on what you can do better, not why Y and X is OP and Z is too weak.

Also remember that if you are getting stomped on your human round you should be stomping the humans on your vampire round. Thus it evens out in the wash anyway.