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Evitherator
24th Jan 2015, 18:38
Hello,

I have played a fair amount of Nosgoth and there seems to be one main issue that hinders the gameplay.

The reaver class seems capable of too much.

When I play as a human a single reaver will most of the time be able to take out someone from full health with all of us there. Now I understand the humans must be played with a greater degree of teamwork. They have to stick together, they have to watch each other.

But the pounce attack deals heavy damage and incapacitates. I know some of you will argue that point as well. My point is it does too much in 1 ability. People turn to their fallen comrade, it stops one of the humans from doing anything. Most importantly though, there is virtually no risk on the part of the Reaver. When they are done with their tearing they activate the dodge move and simply walk away while their teammates finish them off. I've seen this happen MANY, many times. Now you might be saying, well why didn't you just shoot the Reaver, trade 1 for 1.

I have done that many times, it doesn't work. I use the fullbore cannon. I think it's the most damage per shot of any weapon the humans have. I hit the Reaver directly 3 times in the span of it ripping into my teammate. My problem is that after that much damage the Reaver can walk away. There should be much, MUCH more danger to tackling an opponent, and essentially being locked into 1 position for 2 seconds. That should result in death if they go in alone, and from what I've seen, it isn't.

That is just one problem that I've seen. Another that sort of fits with the rest of what I've talked about is that after the pounce some Reaver players will then start right clicking at 20% health and be able to kill the player they pounced before running away. The reason this happens is because they are hard to hit. the motions of the attack are a little wonky and there seems to be more advantage to charging in and just....clicking than there would be to run away and attempt another attack. In other words, there is a reward for lack of strategy. As a human, this is miserable. I have missed vampires directly in front of me, in my face, many.....many times. And I am not a person you can accuse of lacking "skill". I have far too much practice in the realm of shooters.

There are a couple of ways to "fix" this issue. I hesitate to use the word fix because this game relies heavily on balance. Even minor tweaks on abilities or stats can have larger effects that are not easily seen at the moment of change.

The easiest and most logical "fix", to me, would be to have the Reavers have less health. No change on the damage (although it might be logical to add MORE damage if there would be more risk of death). This would provide the humans to at least be able to kill the Reaver before the pounce ended. Ensuring that if a Reaver was a little too headstrong they would be punished for it.

The next idea would be either less damage on the ability, or less time incapacitating the human that was pounced. Either on of these changes would make the ability less devastating to the humans, as if that's the ONLY ability that humans are scared of.

I know most people reading this will argue with this, but I see a lot of MOBA elements in this game. I have put far too many hours into MOBA games, so I don't think my suggestions are unwarranted.

-Thank you for reading,

-Evitherator

JudgeScootaloo
24th Jan 2015, 18:54
As a random, I disagree.
The pounce is definitely the most terrifying utility of the vampire, but it is in no way overpowered.
GETTING pounced to begin with is a product of either well-done confusion or the target's lack of skill.
(sorry, it's bloody obvious when a pounce is coming and WHERE it's coming from. The fact you can't see them clearly on the roof AND the growl is going on...)

The pounce is definitely a very powerful tool and yes, if they ALL initiate at once, trying to 1v1 them per player will end badly.
This is when you throw out the disables and AoEs of the HUNTER side.

They can jump in and dodge out?
(lol)
That dodge duration is ridiculously short for what it is expected to do.
With the exception of lots of corners and quick climbs, they usually will NOT escape too easily.
(if you planned this any at all as a hunter, he will NOT escape)
AoEs still hurt the Reaver in his 'evasion'. (though less, I think?)
Even if he does make it out, he will have only 20-30% of his hp remaining if you didn't waste time and bolas trying to kill him while he's getting out.
The vamp team will be one short of fighters and then it's a REAL bullying thing.
By the time they regen, if your group isn't pointlessly camping, you OUGHT to have healed by then.
(if they attack you will you heal, they're either heavy risk players or you were too slow to heal...)
(I sometimes even chase him. Most reavers like to break LoS then try to climb. Obvious. I just look up and crossbow-snipe that bastard to death)

I mainly play hunter because of my only-slightly-higher-than-average aim and my reluctance to use AoEs in a game where confusing the enemy is 80% of the point.
That being said, as hunter, I have two forms of disable. (by default, I run the default hunter kit)
If I see an ally get pounced, depending on the other enemies, I may opt to bola him and get my ally up.
If I can't do this, I'll usually use the blinding near the end of the pounce so it blinds the vamp before it can finish off my ally.
Under the BEST circumstances, I'll pepper its face for 60-80% of it's health and watch as he disengages and tries to escape.

Following your scenarios, their allies charge/pounce/fly in then, too.
This is where you must remember to NOT have tunnel vision. Pay attention and you can dodge, poke and AoE them before they can even come in JUST to miss their first strike.

It takes about 3-5s for two Hunters to wipe a single Reaver, I think? (you do the math)
We have SO many options to disable them.

For the Vampires, they have two options for offence, usually.
If the Vampire is EVER allowed to rely on his left-click to fight, you're already on a losing streak.
(seriously, they should never go unpunished for this...)
The two options be their rightclick and their AoE.

Hunters have two options, too. However, we have NO escapes.
Unlike Vampires, we CAN initiate WITHOUT using any powers.
They? They NEED to use their first option to initiate.
If the hunters react well, 4/5 times, I'd expect the hunters to come out on top.
The fact is, if the vampire misses and switches to using his leftclick, he's going to get rained on by AoEs, stuns, bolas, bullets, explosions and blinds. He can't even do anything about it but hope to out-dps the hunters who can spread their DPS between a radius the vampires can't even cover.

The Reaver's poison AoE is FAR more terrifying to me. Imagine 3 of them cornering you into one spot, then 3 pounces which WILL be predicted because you saw where the nades came from or heard the grow... only to have a Tyrant leap on your face BEFORE they pounce.
Now that, that is scary.

tl;dr - I'm a noob, I think Reaver is good but not solely because of pounce. Maybe I need to play more high-end games.

Evitherator
24th Jan 2015, 19:22
Mr. Judge,

I am grateful that someone has put as much thought into disagreeing with me (and is very intelligently done, btw) but I still feel the same way as before.

I have much doubt in my ability to effectively play as a Hunter, and you have pointed out things I have not done. I haven't done these things because most of the time, I cannot rely on my team to be an effective deterrent.

Would you argue that you do no see game after game of vampires winning? That the matches are fairly predictable? I see the vampires winning matches about 80% of the time. Which means A) The Vampires are easier to play B) The Humans are too hard to play C) the Vampires are too powerful.

I don't think it's C, but I do think it's a combination of A and B. Which if things are stacking too strong in one direction, in a multiplayer game balancing has to be done.

My suggestion was essentially a nerf of the ability I see spammed time and time again with no reason to stop (although I do admit I may not see it as much when I level up) but I am not opposed to buffs on the Hunter side. Such as less cooldown time on abilities or even an aoe disable that is not a ground target, but a radius around the player. I know you'll object to that, but I'd like to see it.

-Thanks for the response!

PencileyePirate
24th Jan 2015, 19:38
I don't agree with anything in here. Both Hunters and Prophets can neutralize Reavers pretty easily. A single bola or hex can ruin their entire engage.

Melee after pounce is not a problem because it's possible for humans to roll backwards before it connects, and good teamwork can eliminate him even before this happens.

Please stop advocating Reaver nerfs ffs.

JudgeScootaloo
24th Jan 2015, 19:45
I expect it is spammed simply because Pounce is an initiation attack.
List of initiations...

A) Reaver's Pounces
B) Tyrant's Charge/Leap
C) Deceiver's... Invisibility/Copy. (which are essentially dumb to initiate with. one is ALSO the escape and the other is kind of obvious if you've been paying any attention to your teammates and just test-firing to see if blood comes out...)

Hmm. No, I will agree with *your* A&B scenarios.
Humans are distinctly harder to play with the exception of the Sentinel. (deceiver, too, if even ONE hunter is paying attention)
Aiming is generally easy in Nosgoth, so I'll leave that out.
I think it'll improve over time.
Between listening for audio cues and staying in line-of-sight for teamplay, humans actually feel advantageous.
Once more people start using placement with the intent of tactical luring, it'll be that much better.


Yes, I have come across bad games.
Though I find that when the humans play properly, the vampires will suffer without proper coordination.
Yes, as far as I can tell from pugging, vamps win more often. Not 80% of the time, but definitely more.

Reaver is really just 'easy' to use with lots of room to grow.
Same goes for Hunters, though.
I'd say to give it time. Once the humans learn to coordinate (and the VOIP is improved), we'll see.

absinthesize
25th Jan 2015, 09:57
@Evitherator

Im going to disagree, but let me illustrate why!

you say pounce does too much damage/incapacitates too long.

i disagree, it actually is a brilliant skill, you look at this skill and go THIS IS WHY HUMANS DONT GO IT ALONE...this skill REQUIRES humans to help eachother.

no risk for the reaver? You must play a lot of poor players, a reaver who pounces on someone will nilly will have there face shot off before they can activate evasion/shadow step. why do i say that? its proper order of execution! The humans SHOULD turn and fire at him, CC him with bola/hex shot if able. after he uses evade you simply use some aoe (like hunter grenades)...not to mention evasion lasts very short, so if your team was standing in the right place on the map he wouldnt have time to run to effective cover. if he had shadow step and your 3 te3amates had half decent aim you can kill him before his cast animation for it completes.

To you pounce effectively enemies need to be distracted, there needs to be visual impedements, to just pounce someone straight up is a recipe for suicide.

Also if you use the full bore cannon, doesnt one single hit dislodge him from his pounce? you can stop him befor ehe does any real damage. Not too mention if you hit him with full bore 3 times you did 750 damage to him, hes at easily a quarter of his life, less if anyone else on yoru team has been paying attention too.

right clicking? you mean left clicking? right click is a skill, not an attack, it has a cooldown, i also believe its defensive? im tired forgive me, just worked 15 hours.

a player who is at 20% after being pounced was already damaged btw, even a full savage pounce. hed be at closer to 40-60% range of hp.

also if the reaver (or any vampire) spams attack, they are EASY to hit, they become harder to hit when they roll+attack. that is to say, roll THROUGH you, turn around, attack, roll again, repeat, forcing you to constantly re-aquire them. that is a mark of a decent vampire (not great, but decent). You practice in the realm of shooters is not holding up, because i have little practice in shooters, and vs average players i steamroll them because they dont know how to effectively be evasive.

I can agree that reaver is "too essential" to a high skill group, but its not for pounce, hell half of them dont even use it they use circle kick...no its shadowbomb/choking haze! the massive area denial that forces movement and can provide visual cover. no other class boasts such a useful move, at least not to the extent of what the reaver possesses.

if anything there pounce's can easily turn into liabilities.

I think your suggestions are suggestions of someone who is

1-not as good with there aim as they think they are
2-has little experience with the game
3-is having trouble dealing with bad teamates.

if your teamates suck...your gonna have a bad time. i /facepalm everytime i watch a human run off around a corner on his/her own...it hurts to watch.

reaver is decent, a good all rounder vampire, and has a infamously useful ability in the game (shadow bomb/choking haze) but thats about as far as it goes.

LorenCole
25th Jan 2015, 11:19
Without too much words, the basic idea is this:

A single Reaver, without a proper strategy and co-ordination with his party, can't do nothing to a communicating human team.

The class has already been stripped out and nerfed like hell, same thing with the human Hunter (some will remember the beautifulness of the Shoot/Whip/Sticky/Shoot again combination), so don't throw poison on them!

FireWorks_
25th Jan 2015, 15:06
Hello,

I have played a fair amount of Nosgoth and [bla]


How much is a fair amount in hours?

--Ram--
25th Jan 2015, 15:07
I totally disagree with OP. A reaver that pounces on a decent human team to initiate will be dead in 1 second and will be lucky to deal any damage at all.

Teamwork, awareness, and proper ability use all counter pounce. There is a reason most skilled reavers use kick. Pounce is a noob killer or a tool to take an opportunity when humans make positioning errors or get split. Which in many pubs is 100% of the time but that is not to say that pounce is remotely OP.

Ysanoire
25th Jan 2015, 15:22
I have done that many times, it doesn't work. I use the fullbore cannon. I think it's the most damage per shot of any weapon the humans have. I hit the Reaver directly 3 times in the span of it ripping into my teammate. My problem is that after that much damage the Reaver can walk away.

I don't understand. So you dealt 750 damage to this Reaver. The Reaver MAY have done this much if he uses Savage Pounce, but more often than not it'll be something closer to 400 damage. If you now throw a light bomb at him he won't walk away (using Evasion at least).
Also, if your team is unable to put ONE shot in the pouncing vampire (250 health is 2 shots from a prophet or scout) game balance is really not to blame.

Rago600
25th Jan 2015, 20:52
I saw a Lot of this Thread Coming, when we go to Open Beta :)
No worries !
ust Play a Little More, lets say after Level 40 The most Players start to realize how this game works in mechanics, its fine.

I disagree with op.

GenFeelGood
26th Jan 2015, 04:04
Please no more Reaver nerf, he already has the lowest health in the game. If you see him facing you in pounce position, quickly roll (not step, roll) to the side in order to dodge it; and roll to the side, not backwards or forwards, this is true for dodging most vamp attacks in the game. Even if he misses he is still right next to you so employ your primary ability, secondary ability, or a combination of the two as you side step him and continue firing. It is better to lose a little health dancing in your firewall than it is to lose all that is left while trying to avoid it and your attacker.

--Ram--
26th Jan 2015, 04:31
So many nerf threads lol. Nerf ALL the vamps pls Corey. :rasp:

Rago600
26th Jan 2015, 05:14
So many nerf threads lol. Nerf ALL the vamps pls Corey. :rasp:

Sombody , Nerf the New Players, yes im just joking here.