PDA

View Full Version : More Combat System Complexity



B1tstreamAlpha
21st Jan 2015, 00:15
Hi, having played this game for a couple of weeks now, I must say the biggest feature that seems to be missing are some subtleties in the combat system (primarily vampire melee). The reason that's a problem is that...

(1) Close range fights are often either predictable (vampire starts melee, chains it 'till the human is dead), or they are decided by plain luck (vampire has human in eternal combo, human's teammate rescues him).

(2) There's not much of a learning curve - it seems to me like the majority of the skill for vampires (once you are engaged in close-combat) lies in aiming your attacks. In order for combat to feel "skilled", there need to be more subtleties (more ways to improve your attacks, and more ways to mess them up).

A few suggestions...

- More variety of moves, and/or combos. At least for one vampire class.

- Active reload for humans. It adds complexity and skill. Why would you ever not want it?

- More non-ability-related ways to stun an opponent or make him "flinch". And something useful you can actually do with that time. And something the opponent can do to get out of it. Etc. Just something to break up the predictability in close-combat.

- (vampire melee) Penalty for missing your target (momentary vulnerability).

- (vampire melee) Penalty for whacking a wall with your charged melee attack (stun yourself momentarily)?

- Loss of flight when a sentinel hits a wall head-on (without the intent to climb it). (More skill needed for flying/kidnap). If nothing else it would be amusing!

- Human melee should be able to buy you some time. As a human, I think you can cause a very momentary stun if you melee a vampire at just the right time - but it doesn't buy you enough time to take a shot or pop an ability. Seems you should get something for it if you can see the attack coming long in advance (before you're stuck in a combo). Human melee is a risky move vs. an undamaged vampire - and it would be cool if it - at least sometimes - had a pay-off.

- More knock-downs, and add a mechanic that allows an aware player to recover more quickly/gracefully by pressing a button at just the right time. Perhaps a knock-down after a fully-charged vampire melee would be worth exploring - the knocked-down human gets a moment of invincibility while he's on the ground, which forces the attacking vampire to re-time his next hit (if he attacks too early, he'll miss due to the invincibility period). Coupled with a quick-recovery mechanic, that means both vampire and human have to pay attention to their timing and try to predict what their opponent might do... Even better if the human can occasionally throw a punch of his own to change the rhythm, and maybe gain some time for a teammate to help.

- Variable attack damage depending on timing. E.g. have additional "trigger points" in the melee attacks, where if you tap the right button/key at exactly the right time, you can do more damage. Perhaps a player could choose between a "simple" vampire combat system - like it is now - and an "expert" mode, where you have the opportunity to do more damage, but you have to do something extra. Having the choice would avoid alienating new players while offering more experienced players some challenge, complexity, and the opportunity to be a more effective player. It's the same thing as having a normal pounce and a "savage pounce" - only I'm talking about doing that for the entire melee system, and making the "extra challenge" a matter of timing and context rather than aim.


Feel free to disagree - I'll be delighted to hear if there's something I've missed.

Razaiim
21st Jan 2015, 02:10
Hey I like what you're writing, and I'm going to lay down some stuff, some of it conflicting with yours, some of it not quite the same, some of it agreeing.

- Close range fights do have some depth to them. Take this situation:
--- Vampire engages human, no available skills for either: All human classes can kill a vampire with a single clip if they don't miss. Humans also have more dps than the vampires standard attacks. So humans can actually face tank a vampire with good aim and the vampire just keeps swinging. However, vampires can attack directly at the end of a roll, and can shorten the attack animation by rolling, leading to a series of slash/roll/slash ducking around the humans. Consequently, humans with good timing can roll past a vampire to make him miss, or can roll when the vampire does, creating a larger gap. Coupled with stopping power on human weapons, the vampire might not reach you on his first attack.

- You'll have to explain active reloading to me, not sure what you mean.

- I'd be ok to seeing more pain flinches, but not many more full stuns. Perhaps with proper timing a human can melee to parry a vampire, deflecting him backwards or to the side, and take reduced damage (These guys are strong, and your going to feel any contact with them in the morning), while humans have a camera flinch similar to being hit in melee in Doom 3, it actually throws off your aim. Obviously much weaker, and the next attack will probably center it anyways.

- The penalty for missing an attack is that you missed, and the human is now either beside or behind you. Perhaps lowering the turn rate from an attack might help.

- I'd be down for a quick rise mechanic, but currently Vampires can only be knocked down via warbow, or a reaver taking heavy damage mid pounce, so it might not be worth it.

My personal biggest problem for Vampires is the way they move is too consistent, and too linear. There was a mighty good post about this back in alpha but I can't find it now. But basically here's my wish list:

- Vampires can kick off walls, and leap side ways off a wall

- A wall hang

- Coupled with the above, vampires may now also climb map boundary walls up to the game ceiling, at which they can hang, kick off or kick to the side

- Different dodges for each vampire that cause them to move differently.
--- Deceiver would drop to all fours similar to the zephonim crawl in Soul Reaver, and use his long arms as an anchor to swing himself around in the desired direction
--- Sentinel would use his wings to launch himself upward in the desired direction, like a very mini take-off, perhaps with a small stagger effect
--- Tyrant would keep his roll, but it would launch him slightly higher and further
--- Reaver might do a butterfly twist/kick in the direction, and could be used as a weaker attack
--- The latter 3 dodges could be used to mantle or vault over smaller terrain pieces, while the deceiver could use his to navigate around an obstacle

- I'd also like more skills to be used while in the air like the Tyrant's shockwave. Backstab and puncture could trigger downwards while falling, wingflap would be between horizontal and downwards etc...

- The reaver currently has a special charge move where if you do 2 attacks (the second one has to be standard), the 3rd attack can be charged where he goes down to the ground, leaps forward and slashes. It is actually possible to dodge any skills that are aimed at your upper torso. I'd like to see something similar for the other 3 vampires, a charged attack that displaces you vertically or to the sides while still sending you to your target.

For both factions I'd like a crouch, where you remain stationary but may roll when needed (preserving the current roll animations for vampires). For humans this crouch would also reduce recoil, and could be the new ironsights, allowing the right mouse button be used for something else.

B1tstreamAlpha
24th Jan 2015, 12:22
- You'll have to explain active reloading to me, not sure what you mean.

When you reload, you have the option to hit a button (e.g. the reload button again) at a specific time, and if your timing is dead-on you get a much faster reload. Random youtube search example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpm2oo6TJ5A



My personal biggest problem for Vampires is the way they move is too consistent, and too linear.
[...]
For both factions I'd like a crouch, where you remain stationary but may roll when needed (preserving the current roll animations for vampires). For humans this crouch would also reduce recoil, and could be the new ironsights, allowing the right mouse button be used for something else.
+1
So far I'm not bothered by vampire movement (outside of combat). But what I do find is that in DM games, it is so difficult to sneak up on humans. Humans always prefer to find a corner of a map, where there are effectively two walls and only two directions of approach. Even when there are ledges behind them that can be used as approach paths, you still get seen very easily when trying to get behind them. I frequently take reaver purely for his crouch ability (which is really a side-effect of the pounce ability), for approaching humans unseen, and waiting for the right moment to attack (when the rest of my team is in position). Imo all vampires should have the ability to crouch/crawl, and it shouldn't have a cool-down.

In general, my issue with the close combat situation is just that it feels like LMB spam. If vampires are supposed to be a melee class, there should be more to learn about vampire combat than to aim and press LMB. Sure, there may be some subtleties already; but imo there needs to be more variety in moves/timing built in to the game in order to lengthen the learning curve and broaden the scope for personal combat styles to develop. And of course that would have to be balanced from the human side, too.

In a really good game, you can often identify players you know just by watching them play, without seeing their names. That's what I'd love to see in Nosgoth.

--Ram--
24th Jan 2015, 12:55
Not a great deal of point using reaver to crouch and hide when doing so makes your position blatantly obvious via growling.

B1tstreamAlpha
24th Jan 2015, 13:23
Not a great deal of point using reaver to crouch and hide when doing so makes your position blatantly obvious via growling.
Still, it seems to work better than standing up on top of a building in plain sight :). Assuming they can hear, there's still an important difference between knowing I'm there and being able to shoot me. I always find a position where I can observe them without offering a line of fire. That's the real point - being able to observe them to plan an attack. With no crouch, observing is practically equivalent to revealing yourself.

Passarbye
24th Jan 2015, 18:42
I agree with most ideas in this thread, combat does feel a bit stale and like chess if you ask me.
ex.
Vampire approaches human on equal ground. either A: human pops ability (vampire may counter or leave depending if the ability hit) B: vampire pops ability and either leaves or finishes human based on level of team focus on them/health left or C: vampire engages and gets destroyed by team focus.

This doesn't really take into account those special situations where a vamp is outsmarted by the slight nuances of melee strikes and how humans can avoid them, but that depends player to player. I'll agree there should be some kind of extra element to basic combat to freshen the system up.