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absinthesize
18th Jan 2015, 05:43
Just wondering, this game has great aesthetics but its marred when a player has to abuse this glitch in order to compete.

quite simply it needs fixed,a nd vamps speed needs boosted in compensation.

--Ram--
18th Jan 2015, 05:57
I also would like it to go but I worry about the consequences unless it is fully thought through.

The more I think about this the more I think removing it may create more problems than it solves. Not only does attack/roll make you move faster, but it makes you far more erratic and difficult to aim at, since you can zig zag and circle with sudden moves, rather than running smoothly with no jerky movements. Thus if it is to go I think humans will find aiming at vamps vastly easier and effective dps will rise, which is certainly not needed.

The way movement is currently (if just running) you cant really A-D strafe or change direction rapidly. I think if attack-roll is to go then movement may need to become more responsive to give vamps a fighting chance.

absinthesize
18th Jan 2015, 06:06
I also would like it to go but I worry about the consequences unless it is fully thought through.

The more I think about this the more I think removing it may create more problems than it solves. Not only does attack/roll make you move faster, but it makes you far more erratic and difficult to aim at, since you can zig zag and circle with sudden moves, rather than running smoothly with no jerky movements. Thus if it is to go I think humans will find aiming at vamps vastly easier and effective dps will rise, which is certainly not needed.

The way movement is currently (if just running) you cant really A-D strafe or change direction rapidly. I think if attack-roll is to go then movement may need to become more responsive to give vamps a fighting chance.

i dont disagree but that just highlights the issues overall. right now the game isnt progressing in terms of this balance because of the attack+roll glitch.

fix it, and vamps get buffed to balance again, then the game is better for it in the end.

Rago600
18th Jan 2015, 09:13
I don´t think its a bad mechanic to be honest.
Maybe it just came out that Way.

Khalith
18th Jan 2015, 09:30
Thus if it is to go I think humans will find aiming at vamps vastly easier and effective dps will rise, which is certainly not needed.
Definitely agree that that effective dps does not need to go any higher, but to me it just means vampire players will have to get better at timing their dodges and saving it for avoiding things like bola/knives/alch cannon shots rather than swinging and rolling all over the place. No one is asking for the ability to do a dodge in combat to be removed (I've stated before I'm not against a dodge move in theory, I'd have preferred a quick side step in the soul reaver/blood omen tradition to the roll) only that the rolling all over the place be done away with.

Besides, you could still do a swing in to a dodge roll to get behind them and swing again if the dodge reset is removed, the only difference is you can't do it after the second swing. In my experience, if I get behind the person and they weren't quick enough to adjust their aim, they'd die anyway making subsequent rolls pointless as they're dead by the time they get a bead on me.


The way movement is currently (if just running) you cant really A-D strafe or change direction rapidly. I think if attack-roll is to go then movement may need to become more responsive to give vamps a fighting chance.

I think that would be awesome.

Da_Wolv
18th Jan 2015, 09:58
I don´t think its a bad mechanic to be honest.
Maybe it just came out that Way.

Ya, you guys throw the word 'glitch' around - is it one though?
Or was it intended?
Because I can appreciate a deeper movement system as it gives the game a new layer of skill;
both for vampires to learn how to move without getting shot every step of the way, but also for humans to get better at predicting vampire movement and making judgement calls upon that knowledge (for CC or high damage bursts)

Vampmaster
18th Jan 2015, 10:19
Ya, you guys throw the word 'glitch' around - is it one though?
Or was it intended?

"That, detective, is the right question. Program terminated."
https://i.imgflip.com/fwri0.jpg

DesolatedMaggot
18th Jan 2015, 10:45
Ya, you guys throw the word 'glitch' around - is it one though?
Or was it intended?
Because I can appreciate a deeper movement system as it gives the game a new layer of skill;
both for vampires to learn how to move without getting shot every step of the way, but also for humans to get better at predicting vampire movement and making judgement calls upon that knowledge (for CC or high damage bursts)

While I agree a "deeper" movement system can be a great thing. But I hardly think 'LMB, Space, LMB, Space' really counts. It just feel tedious and like I'm wearing out my LMB much faster than I would otherwise. lol

And yes, quite sure they've confirmed that its a bug and wish to fix it. I think the only reason they haven't yet is because it would destroy faction balance in the current state of the game.

Obisher
18th Jan 2015, 11:11
The thing that worries me about removing melee-dodge roll combo is that it could make combat with vampires a lot clunkier. As some people have said in this thread already, this "glitch" allows vampires to have unpredictable movement. I've been using it to get closer to humans with unpredictable angles and they were missing a lot with their CC abilities. Also, maneuvering around them while attacking them saved me a lot of times.

Anyway, that's my main concern considering removing melee-dodge roll. Less maneuverability around humans when you're attacking them. Khalith's suggestions seems like something I could live with, because it would allow you to do melee, dodge, melee again, but you couldn't dodge straight away after that if I understood correctly. But my personal opinion is that it doesn't need to be removed. Also in terms of "realism" (I know it's dumb to talk about realism in a game with vampires, but I'll do it anyway...), some marital arts use punch/kick and roll combo (or vice versa) to preserve momentum and create unpredictable movement as well. Although it doesn't give you overall a faster movement speed, you can change direction really quickly with roll and attack immediately afterwards.

This may be slightly off-topic, but I would like to address Sentinel's dodge-air boost here as well. I see a lot of people demanding for it to be removed. I think it's a really useful mechanic for Sentinel. Whenever I see Sentinels that aren't using dodge-air boost I immediately switch to Scout and think to myself: "Nice, easy targets". And this is coming from someone who has slightly over 40% accuracy on Scout. So imagine the amount of damage these Sentinels would take from a Scout who has over 60% accuracy. I really can't think of any buff that would be as good as the dodge-air boost.

TL;DR - My personal opinion is that these mechanics shouldn't be removed. If they are really going to remove these "glitches" from game, then they have to give vamps some pretty strong buffs in terms of maneuverability and unpredictable movement.

Cristari
18th Jan 2015, 14:22
I would like to see attack+roll go as it makes no sense what so ever that anyone would need to do this to move quicker than a normal running motion however during attacking it kind of is a necessity and removing it may affect the way a Vampire can attack. If Vampires running speed was increased to match the Attack+roll combo then it would not be required!

absinthesize
18th Jan 2015, 15:39
Ya, you guys throw the word 'glitch' around - is it one though?
Or was it intended?
Because I can appreciate a deeper movement system as it gives the game a new layer of skill;
both for vampires to learn how to move without getting shot every step of the way, but also for humans to get better at predicting vampire movement and making judgement calls upon that knowledge (for CC or high damage bursts)

im ok with a deep movement system

im not ok with attack+roll being the default method of locomotion tho

im not against attack+roll in general, just against it being faster then base movement

absinthesize
18th Jan 2015, 15:42
TL;DR - My personal opinion is that these mechanics shouldn't be removed. If they are really going to remove these "glitches" from game, then they have to give vamps some pretty strong buffs in terms of maneuverability and unpredictable movement.

exactly

this is what im hoping for


I would like to see attack+roll go as it makes no sense what so ever that anyone would need to do this to move quicker than a normal running motion however during attacking it kind of is a necessity and removing it may affect the way a Vampire can attack. If Vampires running speed was increased to match the Attack+roll combo then it would not be required!

this would be a simple fix, allowing attack+roll to have its place...in combat, but not for simply walking around.

Cristari
18th Jan 2015, 16:14
this would be a simple fix, allowing attack+roll to have its place...in combat, but not for simply walking around.

I did state that movement speed should match that of the attack+roll.

absinthesize
18th Jan 2015, 16:21
my only complaint would be that some people would do it anyways because of the jerky movement.

when in reality, they just need snappier controls for vampires movement in general.

Psyonix_Corey
18th Jan 2015, 21:12
What we've said about this in the past is that it was not intended, but that we aren't comfortable removing it unless we can replace it with something that maintains a similar level of flexibility for high level vampire players. We don't want to kneejerk destroy every mechanic just because we didn't intend them.

I agree it looks stupid, but it's serving a valuable purpose right now - a skill/knowledge difference between new vampire players and veterans.

Calderweiss
18th Jan 2015, 22:35
What we've said about this in the past is that it was not intended, but that we aren't comfortable removing it unless we can replace it with something that maintains a similar level of flexibility for high level vampire players. We don't want to kneejerk destroy every mechanic just because we didn't intend them.

I agree it looks stupid, but it's serving a valuable purpose right now - a skill/knowledge difference between new vampire players and veterans.

I don't think it looks stupid. The vampires are much more agile in combat, it makes sense that they would be able to do that kind of stuff in close range.

I'm glad you guys aren't removing it willy-nilly. It would destroy a lot of balance in competitive play.

Rago600
19th Jan 2015, 09:17
I agree it looks stupid, but it's serving a valuable purpose right now - a skill/knowledge difference between new vampire players and veterans.

Yeah, exacly.
The same goes for attack swings and the Timing based stuff.
Some new Players may complain that they can´t hit with the Vampire´s but it´s just that they haven´t testet the Mechanics.

absinthesize
19th Jan 2015, 09:23
What we've said about this in the past is that it was not intended, but that we aren't comfortable removing it unless we can replace it with something that maintains a similar level of flexibility for high level vampire players. We don't want to kneejerk destroy every mechanic just because we didn't intend them.

I agree it looks stupid, but it's serving a valuable purpose right now - a skill/knowledge difference between new vampire players and veterans.

That didnt really answer my question but i appreciate the reply.

My question was when did you plan on changing it?

i understand that would require other changes too to keep balance.

@Calderweiss, it doesnt look stupid "in combat" when you are using it to make yourself harder to hit while trying to hit the human, it looks stupid when your using it to simply move from point A to point B.

there in lies the issue, using it for basic movement, using it to dodge/be erratic is fine, but it shouldnt be used even when just moving from point a to point b.

I use it, it takes away from the game for me at least.

@Rag600, who complains that they cannot hit with vamps? only issue i ever had was tyrant (admitted issue), and sentinal kidnap (unintuitive)

Khalith
19th Jan 2015, 09:27
I agree it looks stupid, but it's serving a valuable purpose right now - a skill/knowledge difference between new vampire players and veterans.

The issue really comes down to the swing resetting the dodge timer, if it stopped doing that, using the swing roll to get to places and use it in combat would still be present, it would just have to be used more strategically as opposed to being spammable. I'm you acknowledge that it looks stupid though.

Rago600
19th Jan 2015, 21:31
@Rag600, who complains that they cannot hit with vamps? only issue i ever had was tyrant (admitted issue), and sentinal kidnap (unintuitive)

I was just talking about random ingame chat´s or Topics from unexpirienced Players & Friends of mine.
I was not refering to you in special.

I found it easy to use the Sentinel, as for my self i played sentinel the first time :) (Kidnap) well does not matter.

absinthesize
20th Jan 2015, 02:31
little bump to keep this going. it really needs to be looked at.

attack+roll in combat=fine, even makes sense

attack+roll as primary efficient method to get form point a to point b=ugly and takes away from the game for me

general issue with fix seems to be its potential balance threat

have to fix vamps mobility and agility to compensate for removal of using attack+roll as primary method of locomotion

ideas

1-general speed buff, so that there run speed is faster then attack+roll. This addresses it for being faster...but not the agility part that helps keep a vampire alive.

2-i got nothing lol

Psyonix_Corey
20th Jan 2015, 03:51
1-general speed buff, so that there run speed is faster then attack+roll. This addresses it for being faster...but not the agility part that helps keep a vampire alive.

The problem is this is a direct buff to every single vampire player and not a replacement for a mechanic skilled players are taking advantage of. It might seriously impact low level games.

absinthesize
20th Jan 2015, 04:08
The problem is this is a direct buff to every single vampire player and not a replacement for a mechanic skilled players are taking advantage of. It might seriously impact low level games.

Then wouldnt you consider the current attack+roll to be a ABUSE of game mechanics since you actually move FASTER then vampires current running speed while doing it.

its not just for jerky hard to predict movement

its faster then our base speed

if we brought up vamps base speed to equal to that of attack+roll what would it hurt? granted it wouldnt fix the problem since pros would still use it just for the jerky movement since there is no real lose with using it over basic sprint, wich i think there should be.

Rago600
20th Jan 2015, 08:48
It´s fine as it is Vampires can climb surfaces, the reaver has many speed up options, Sentinel can fly faster, the tyrant is able to charge and the deciver stay´s the hidden one.

Of course they are different, ways to attack together ^^
Anyway even it´s skill´s, humans stick together.

I do understand you Point here.You made that clear many Times.
But i dont think that it just effects Gampelay that much.

It´s not that Gamebraking.I mean you can win with a Good Team, can´t you ?

HugsFromMomma
20th Jan 2015, 08:54
The problem is this is a direct buff to every single vampire player and not a replacement for a mechanic skilled players are taking advantage of. It might seriously impact low level games.

I'd suggest looking at increasing both Vampire and Human base speeds by the same amount. This keeps the fleeing / pursuing ratio the same (which is what low level humans do - try to outrun vamps), removes the need to dodge / roll for movement around the map, but retains the ability to dodge / roll in combat to be evasive.

The only downside to this solution is that vampires running towards stationary humans would close the gap slightly faster and provide a small vampire mobility buff in combat. Alternately, humans would benefit by being able to reach health stations quickly and regroup faster after a battle. Hard to call.

Cristari
20th Jan 2015, 10:55
The problem is this is a direct buff to every single vampire player and not a replacement for a mechanic skilled players are taking advantage of. It might seriously impact low level games.

If run speed was the same as or faster than attack-roll without altering attack roll wouldn't those skilled players drop the attack-roll for movement only in lieu of the better/equal run speed. I don't know about you but the less number of buttons I have to press the better.

FireWorks_
20th Jan 2015, 11:13
If run speed was the same as or faster than attack-roll without altering attack roll wouldn't those skilled players drop the attack-roll for movement only in lieu of the better/equal run speed. I don't know about you but the less number of buttons I have to press the better.

Walk, shoot, repeat is not a sufficient game mechanic to make people stick for longer than a few days.

Corey is right about the decisions in place here. Not perfect, but you wont achieve what you want, by just gutting the game.

Vampmaster
20th Jan 2015, 11:37
How does it work at the moment? I can do it, but not consistently. Is it that you roll in the middle of an attack? If it is, then maybe it would work better the other way around. Attack while in the middle (or allow it for a fraction of a second after?) of rolling forward to give extra forward momentum to the attack?

Cristari
20th Jan 2015, 13:04
How does it work at the moment? I can do it, but not consistently. Is it that you roll in the middle of an attack? If it is, then maybe it would work better the other way around. Attack while in the middle (or allow it for a fraction of a second after?) of rolling forward to give extra forward momentum to the attack?

The way it is done is a basic swipe or attack immediately followed by a roll, this give a marginal increase in movement speed over running but is something that needs to be kept up.


Walk, shoot, repeat is not a sufficient game mechanic to make people stick for longer than a few days.

Corey is right about the decisions in place here. Not perfect, but you wont achieve what you want, by just gutting the game.

I never suggested removing it I think it should stay it is far too vital when attacking to keep yourself alive as a Vampire All I am suggesting is increasing the run speed of a Vampire to match the speed of attack+roll which would make the need to attack+roll while moving a waste of time and stop people from doing it just for moving.

I am pretty sure no one here is talking about the removal of attack+roll in combat but are talking of attack+roll in travelling the map (movement)

TendrilSavant
20th Jan 2015, 20:31
What we've said about this in the past is that it was not intended, but that we aren't comfortable removing it unless we can replace it with something that maintains a similar level of flexibility for high level vampire players. We don't want to kneejerk destroy every mechanic just because we didn't intend them.

I agree it looks stupid, but it's serving a valuable purpose right now - a skill/knowledge difference between new vampire players and veterans.
I think this is a poor justification for keeping that in for now. The melee cancel isn't an advanced skill with risks and rewards, it's pure advantage. If you know about it, you can get into and out of engagements 2-3 seconds faster than you should; which is HUGE against players with decent aim. But unless someone straight up tells you this, seeing a vampire melee around a corner will look like a miss click to most player. What I'm trying to get at is that when advanced knowledge is hidden here in the forums a large portion of your population is going to be playing at a huge disadvantage.

The reason there seems to be need for melee cancel isn't so much that vampires need more movement options, but that human core mechanics gives them a much MUCH higher skill ceilings. The only true disadvantage humans have over vampires is limited terrain movement options, which hardly plays a roll at higher levels (once you know the best locations on a given map). Vampires biggest disadvantage is their main mechanic, the need to get in close.

What vampires need is better positioning mechanics, not movement options. Think of vampires as ambush predators that can push their advantage if needed, but know when to retreat/give up. In other words, I think removing melee cancel and re-balancing vampire mechanics to allow for easier positioning and engaging is needed.

B1tstreamAlpha
20th Jan 2015, 22:50
If anything, this game should have more of these types of subtleties. However I'm not in favor of things that replace normal movement, simply because it isn't fun to wreck your keyboard and mouse (and fingers) with extra button pushes. Moving is something you are doing nearly all of the time. It's tiresome if you have to spam buttons just to walk across the map.

What would be a good replacement would be to convert this to a special move that doesn't interfere with movement. Perhaps this would only work when you've taken a certain amount of damage, or would not be possible to chain infinitely (e.g. there's a delay before you can roll again, so it's not faster than normal running).

Imo the problem of vampires moving in predictable directions with predictable velocity is a completely separate problem. Perhaps it begs a new vampire ability/perk. Another problem is that there are apparently people using cheats in the game, so I'm never too sure anymore whether my vamp is getting hammered because of an imbalance in the mechanics, because I suck, or because some £$^& is using an aim-bot. But let's face it, on average, people are only going to get better at aiming in the game as time goes on.

absinthesize
21st Jan 2015, 06:32
If anything, this game should have more of these types of subtleties. However I'm not in favor of things that replace normal movement, simply because it isn't fun to wreck your keyboard and mouse (and fingers) with extra button pushes. Moving is something you are doing nearly all of the time. It's tiresome if you have to spam buttons just to walk across the map.

What would be a good replacement would be to convert this to a special move that doesn't interfere with movement. Perhaps this would only work when you've taken a certain amount of damage, or would not be possible to chain infinitely (e.g. there's a delay before you can roll again, so it's not faster than normal running).

Imo the problem of vampires moving in predictable directions with predictable velocity is a completely separate problem. Perhaps it begs a new vampire ability/perk. Another problem is that there are apparently people using cheats in the game, so I'm never too sure anymore whether my vamp is getting hammered because of an imbalance in the mechanics, because I suck, or because some £$^& is using an aim-bot. But let's face it, on average, people are only going to get better at aiming in the game as time goes on.

I agree

i LIKE attack+roll from a combat perspective

i DISLIKE attack+roll from a movement perspective

eXmoRtiZ
21st Jan 2015, 14:51
atk+roll like bunny hopping in Quake. I really liked that, and Really like this!. It make the game more skillfull.

Cristari
21st Jan 2015, 17:58
atk+roll like bunny hopping in Quake. I really liked that, and Really like this!. It make the game more skillfull.

You only Bunny hopped when in combat we are not talking about whilst in combat only when moving across the map. You would never do it in Quake or any other Online shooter because it made you move slow!

PencileyePirate
21st Jan 2015, 18:01
If you know about it, you can get into and out of engagements 2-3 seconds faster than you should; which is HUGE against players with decent aim. But unless someone straight up tells you this, seeing a vampire melee around a corner will look like a miss click to most player. What I'm trying to get at is that when advanced knowledge is hidden here in the forums a large portion of your population is going to be playing at a huge disadvantage.

Uhmmm ... no. The speed in getting in-and-out of engagements is necessary; removing it would require some sort of replacement or movement speed buff. I learned it from watching players in game so it's hardly "hidden" knowledge exclusive to the forums.


You only Bunny hopped when in combat we are not talking about whilst in combat only when moving across the map. You would never do it in Quake or any other Online shooter because it made you move slow!

It's pretty obvious you never actually played Quake.

FireWorks_
21st Jan 2015, 18:09
You only Bunny hopped when in combat we are not talking about whilst in combat only when moving across the map. You would never do it in Quake or any other Online shooter because it made you move slow!

You never actually played quake, right? Everything that gets you to your armor etc faster got used. Be fast or be dead.

YaronMS
21st Jan 2015, 21:02
I don´t think its a bad mechanic to be honest.
Maybe it just came out that Way.

I really dislike this mechanic because it's anti-intuitive. New players and players who don't roam the forums all day long won't get to know that movement and it's advantages.

--Ram--
22nd Jan 2015, 01:15
I really dislike this mechanic because it's anti-intuitive. New players and players who don't roam the forums all day long won't get to know that movement and it's advantages.

To a degree I agree with you on this, however I never learned this technique from a forum when I was new, and it didn't take me an exceedingly long time to pick up on it. I simply noticed someone one my team doing it and said hey whats that about?

Squigiligimous
22nd Jan 2015, 09:18
Would really appreciate if this just would get fixed it looks STUPID in action even if it's effective. Literally being faster to move around with attack dodge spam is sad. Fix/rebalance w/e you need to do after that but this? No. Not even once.

Khalith
22nd Jan 2015, 09:32
I am pretty sure no one here is talking about the removal of attack+roll in combat but are talking of attack+roll in travelling the map (movement)

I am talking about both. I'm not saying disable attack + roll in combat entirely, even if it looks stupid. I'm saying that instead of being able to roll after every swing the cooldown should not reset. So instead of being able to roll after every swing you should only be able to do it after 2-3 swings.

Saturnity
22nd Jan 2015, 21:17
atk+roll like bunny hopping in Quake. I really liked that, and Really like this!. It make the game more skillfull.
I wouldn't say that, but it definitely gives you options and options are good.

"Am I going to keep swinging at this guy? Am I going to cancel my melee lag to roll past him and his bola? Will that just waste time and get me killed? Is he going to run from me in a straight line (so I melee cancel) or around a bunch of tight bends (so I just run and swing)?"

absinthesize
22nd Jan 2015, 21:25
I wouldn't say that, but it definitely gives you options and options are good.

"Am I going to keep swinging at this guy? Am I going to cancel my melee lag to roll past him and his bola? Will that just waste time and get me killed? Is he going to run from me in a straight line (so I melee cancel) or around a bunch of tight bends (so I just run and swing)?"

again we are not talking about removing its use in combat

just as being the most efficient way to get from point a to point b

Saturnity
22nd Jan 2015, 21:32
again we are not talking about removing its use in combat

just as being the most efficient way to get from point a to point b

I'm responding to him claiming it adds more skill when on the surface it's just a braindead melee + roll. I'm saying it indirectly adds skill in other ways.

absinthesize
22nd Jan 2015, 21:33
I'm responding to him claiming it adds more skill when on the surface it's just a braindead melee + roll. I'm saying it indirectly adds skill in other ways.

my apologies

Rago600
23rd Jan 2015, 23:26
To a degree I agree with you on this, however I never learned this technique from a forum when I was new, and it didn't take me an exceedingly long time to pick up on it. I simply noticed someone one my team doing it and said hey whats that about?

This !
It´s Like using the Sentinel you find out after Time,...

frajhav
16th Feb 2015, 03:49
Hi, i just want to make people aware of this. Using this correctly bypasses the walking speed intended for vampires, and so players are using this to move around the map with a running speed that surpasses 25% which is far more than a human can run. This needs to be fixed please in my opinion, but id like to read what you all think of this, should this be normal or is it considered an exploit? At the moment i don't use this when playing vampire, because i consider it unfair for the human side and i think is an exploit of the game. But i can be wrong :) and thus i leave the matches if i see a player spamming this simply because i like to play as fair as possible.

shinros
16th Feb 2015, 04:11
I am just going to say this has been discussed at length and I recall the developers said they will only remove it if they can find something to replace it with and not destroy the balance of the game as it is.

Plus it does not help that vampires are under powered at high level play which makes matters worse if they remove it.

SilentVirtue
16th Feb 2015, 05:24
if they removed it, it would be impossible to play vampire at the highest level of play,

as far as I'm aware, the devs are looking at making vampires more mobile, not less.

Razaiim
16th Feb 2015, 05:36
There is just no alternative to it. You need to use it to catch running humans, which should not be capable of getting away so easily in the first place. It also makes it somewhat harder to shoot the vampire, otherwise they get blasted running to or away from an engage.

It can't be removed until something else replaces it, and it should be regarded as an essential mechanic of the game at this point in time.

Morigh
16th Feb 2015, 05:43
The Devs use it themselves.

Ghosthree3
16th Feb 2015, 07:22
I always thought this was by design.

-Konf-
16th Feb 2015, 07:56
This is intended by design. Vampires are supposed to be more mobile compared to Humans. Without this mechanic any match will be won by Humans and with a huge score gap.

While developers said that they are looking into alternatives to Vampires mobility (because rolling around the map is a silly way to cross terrain) I personally can't see this mechanic being completely taken out of the game. Vampires need to rely on attack > roll in melee range, otherwise they become even easier targets for Humans to shoot at.

There are some sad individuals that I came across in my time that call any person using this technique a "hacker" that needs to get banned, since this is "exploiting a game mechanic". Sigh...

Ghosthree3
16th Feb 2015, 08:35
I like it and don't want it to be replaced.

ZyrusCrimson
16th Feb 2015, 11:09
I like it and don't want it to be replaced.

+1

--Ram--
16th Feb 2015, 11:25
Frankly I think by accident the way this mechanic works is actually a huge boon to balance across the game. Rookies tend to get rolled over by vamps, despite the fact that rookie vamps tend not to use the added mobility and evasiveness granted this technique. If the attack roll was removed and vampires were straight up buffed in speed, rookie games would look even more one sided.

At mid to high level play every vampire uses this, and they absolutely need it to even have a fighting chance. Without it the game would be a joke and they might as well just concede from the outset.


thus i leave the matches if i see a player spamming this simply because i like to play as fair as possible.

If you are going to follow this rule you might as well not even queue up, because once you reach a point there will be people doing this in every match you play. There is nothing remotely unfair about vampires being faster than humans.

Khalith
16th Feb 2015, 14:15
I always thought this was by design.

It's not by design at all, it's an unintended game mechanic that the melee swing resets the dodge roll, in the same way that turning your mouse while air dodging as a sentinel causes a noticeable increase in flying speed. As far as I'm concerned these things are bugs, but they're bugs that the devs have no intention of fixing as they are considered to add to the gameplay and are currently considered essential.

Another example of such a bug comes from Capcom Vs SNK Mark of the Millenium, there is a glitch called roll canceling. Essentially: Rolling in this game allows a character to temporarily become invincible while advancing forward. The glitch allows this move's invincibility to be transferred to other moves you can do. During the 2002 EVO tourney (in which 20 Japanese players attended), most of the Americans didn't learn to use the glitch but most of the Japanese players did, leading to Japan dominating almost entirely. Capcom acknowledged the cancel as a bug but as it became so popular among their playerbase they decided not to patch it out though some ports of the game don't have it the tourney level ones do.

Now is that a good thing or a bad thing? I've said it before and still stand by it, I hate the air boosting and dodge+melee thing with a passion as they completely ruin the game's aesthetic for me, but they're far too effective not to use in the current game with vamps being at such a huge disadvantage and I put them in the same ballpark as the roll cancel I mentioned above, super lame, but absolutely necessary to be competitive. I'm fine with rolling in combat, but I stand by my assertion that if the melee thing didn't reset the dodge cooldown, you could still dodge in combat, but you'd have to use it more strategically.

Tv tropes has an entire list of stuff that I consider similar: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AscendedGlitch

PencileyePirate
16th Feb 2015, 15:13
It's not by design at all, it's an unintended game mechanic that the melee swing resets the dodge roll, in the same way that turning your mouse while air dodging as a sentinel causes a noticeable increase in flying speed. As far as I'm concerned these things are bugs, but they're bugs that the devs have no intention of fixing as they are considered to add to the gameplay and are currently considered essential.

Why would you think Sentinel air speed boost is a bug? Any evidence for this? It's always seemed by design to me.

Either way ... both of these mechanics add creativity/unpredictability to movement. IMO the game would also be rather boring without advanced movement mechanics for both ground and flight. Yes I know the attack-roll isn't difficult to execute, but leveraging it properly during combat is an intermediate-to-high level skill. Just one example: baiting humans into shooting their CCs at the wrong spot w/ angled attack-dodges.

Vampmaster
16th Feb 2015, 15:19
If anyone needs practice, try the King of Jump Rope challenge in Final Fantasy 9. Then see if you can manage 10000 in a row. It will be hours of fun, repeatedly pressing the same two buttons over and over and over!

What about a slight jump forward with the button that's normally used for climbing? If you need to climb a wall, the move would just naturally jump onto it.

TheRex22
16th Feb 2015, 15:22
I like it. If devs decide to remove it in favor of another method of advanced movement for vamps (perhaps a better-looking one) I'd be ok with it. Luckily they stated they don't want to delete it unless they find another viable option.
Removing sentinel speed-boost would completely ruin the sentinel itself as a slow flying sentinel is basically just a big target.

Three_Pies
16th Feb 2015, 18:23
I don't even understand how this is really that complicated.

Don't remove or change how attack+roll mechanics work, just increase the regular running speed of vampires so that it's a bit faster. That way, vampires get the faster move speed that they should already have, and people can continue to attack+roll to get around if they really want to (now sacrificing a bit of raw speed for a bit of unpredictability - not like anyone at high level can't follow the target regardless, it's not exactly a complicated pattern), and the combat utility of attacking and rolling remains unchanged.

The reason people don't like it is because it really shouldn't be the fastest way to move, it looks stupid and makes no sense. The question shouldn't be whether to remove/nerf/whatever attack+roll, it should be why vampires are so damned slow by default in the first place. Fleet Footed is an abomination, and when balance already tips in the favour of humans when the stragglers don't sprint away, letting them cheese their way out of death by running faster than melee only opponents... I really don't see why that's a thing.

Humans bordering on being able to shoot-and-scoot is silly, and the amount of times I've escaped death just by sprinting and taking a tricky path to my respawning team so the one or two vampires chasing me can be obliterated is just obnoxious. Humans shouldn't be able to pull that nonsense off, and there's no other reason for them to be faster than vampires. It won't even effect proper combat much if vampires are faster, except maybe giving them some of the extra maneuverability that they could really use.

And also, while we're on the subject of vampires needing more mobility, I'd love a crouch button so I can actually take a knee when on a rooftop instead of either balancing on the back corner of the building or inviting any half-decent Scout to shoot me in the face.

Khalith
16th Feb 2015, 19:04
Why would you think Sentinel air speed boost is a bug? Any evidence for this? It's always seemed by design to me.

Tendril posted it below.


Stuff

Well said. I agree with your points.

ApollosBow
16th Feb 2015, 20:46
how do you do attack roll? seems like it requires more focus in combat, I say keep it (and i dont even know how to use it :-S)

TendrilSavant
17th Feb 2015, 00:16
The Devs use it themselves.
While I have seen Devs use the melee cancel, it doesn't mean that they've embraced it as a core mechanic. They could just be testing it out and trying to deconstruct the advantages it gives to figure out a solution to the unintended mechanic, just my two cents.




Why would you think Sentinel air speed boost is a bug? Any evidence for this? It's always seemed by design to me.
As to why the Sentinel air boost is a "bug," this is the intended change from the 3rd July 2014 patch that caused the bug:

Air dodging no longer cancels any of your existing flight momentum
But, from what I hear and read it seems the Devs want to keep it in. And I partially agree, seeing as how keeping momentum was the hardest thing to do as a Sentinel before this; but while it's not strictly thought to new players they will continue to be at a disadvantage while playing Sentinels and countering them.

CardinalSmoke
21st Feb 2015, 02:05
How about this: Allow vampires to attain a higher max running speed, but only if they have not stopped, climbed, rolled, or attacked for a few seconds. Once the acceleration kicks in, it takes another moment to reach top speed. This would allow vamps to traverse the map without looking weird. If it is slightly faster than attack-rolling a long distance, players would prefer to run, and it might even be better for chasing fleeing humans. And since joining the fight usually involves taking a moment to assess the situation, it can't be abused to rush in faster than they are currently able.

Perhaps a counter-mechanic for rolling would encourage this as well. After several uses of attack and roll without any brief pause, they will begin to cover a slightly shorter distance IF the attacks keep missing targets. This allows vampires to melee as they always have, rewarding those who do it effectively. I agree with those who dislike it as a primary mode of travel, but appreciate it as-is for combat. Thoughts?

puff_ng
21st Feb 2015, 12:13
Just make it such that holding down shift while running gradually increases speed for vamps.

Coredusk
21st Feb 2015, 12:55
You also make alot of noise and have predictable movement, also if you do it wrong when you need to take a turn, you end up being slower than normally walking. I like it.