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SilentVirtue
15th Jan 2015, 21:31
Hey guys,

We played a few games of flash point with top tier players and this is our feedback

1. humans are horribly underpowered

2. Sentinel can traverse all points too quickly, and with airstrike its impossible to defend as human

3. Vamps should have to re-capture the point, to massively increase decay (10%) should be passive as is and then increase exponentially for each vamp decapturing. Its too hard to capture points as humans at its current rate (or possibly remove all decay, its kind of an anti fun mechanic for human)

4. stop the sound... the audio is terrible.. literally breaks the game... too hard to hear things

5. Fixed respawn points on the map (we played Provence) and kept spawning into abilities

6. Possibly quick pickups across the map to aid in a meta game (items) boots of speed, flame bolts/projectiles ... other interesting buffs

7. Healing aura (we discusses somewhere between 25-50 hp/sec) for humans while in the capture range as the capture increases so does the healing, or make it inversely proportional

8 invulnerability upon spawn for 2 seconds to avoid spawn camping.

9. Faster access to supply stations to make an assault easier to push back.

10. should be able to see points before spawn

calypso-694
15th Jan 2015, 21:54
I don't agree. I just got my ass handed to me from a great human team. This is just like siege or is siege but re done. it can go either way with human or vamp. just have to have a well orchestrated team. and the more humans you have in the area the faster the capture.

MasterShuriko
15th Jan 2015, 21:57
Have to ask though if its intended that the timers for the siege/ flashpoint objects continue to tick even if its a contested point with vampires attacking.

I have a faint memory of the timers stopping during a contested object back in the days it was called Siege.

Tetrajoule
15th Jan 2015, 22:07
I agree with the OP, though supply stations on the capturing points would be nice also, a quick fix without much coding just putting some more objects into the game

Cristari
15th Jan 2015, 22:15
I commented in the Announcement thread:


Flashpoint:

Some points are far too close together and far far to easy to defend as a Vampire.
This mode has not changed much in any way other than the point scoring system and the spawn locations
Match summery sometimes does not appear.
Only having 2 points to attack at a time is limiting for the Humans especially on small maps like the ones we have.
The maps are too small for this type of game play.
Team Stacking kills this game 4 Jumping Tyrants or 4 Volley Scouts can cause a major upset and unbalanced game play.

I would like to add some spawns are on the objectives for both Vamps and Humies this needs to stop there should be no spawn zones around the objective points and the same spawn system as for TDM should apply here.

In reply to OP: -

1 - I do not agree that Humans are underpowered if anything they are overpowered. They have far more Area denial abilities than Vampires do as all their skills are in CQC and Humans have the advantage of ranged attacks.

3 - Nice idea for the recapture but very limiting as the points are too quickly captured it should balance out and take longer to capture than to recapture.

4 - I have no sound issues- -Check your settings.

6 - Just no!

7 - OMG no don't break the game!

9 - Resupply stations should be removed and Vampires should not be allowed to feed. Some resupply points are on the capture zones which is beyond stupid when others are half way across the map from the capture zones. Just remove them and balance it with the Vampires not being able to feed.

10 - I assume you mean at the start of the game. No thanks.

SquirrelInDaSky
15th Jan 2015, 22:39
Plot summary: TOO MUCH TIME. like OHMYGOD.
Suggestion: cut down the bonus time you get for capping to 20-30 seconds. The losing team is not getting punished enough for screwing around doing nothing. Your team can deny the points for like 4 minutes, and then they cap one and get 75 seconds back, delaying the inevitable.

AltAndrews
15th Jan 2015, 22:46
It might seem that humans are underpowered because they are often forced to gravitate around areas that are otherwise inefficient and disadvantageous in a normal game of TDM, hence why they get picked off a bit more easily. I've noticed that the point on the blood fountain on Provance, for example, is really hard to crack down as vampire, while the one in the big storage house next to it is extremely easy to keep clear. The same rules that apply in TDM when it comes to bracing up for a fight as human apply in Flashpoint - get to an area with as little giant cover as possible and little to no rooftops, and you'll be fine; hole up in a corner with next to no vision above 20 meters and several buildings around you, and it suddenly becomes a lot harder to stay cohesive.

Another thing to note is that split capping seems to be working very well in some instances, though it could be because of the skill disparity between my team and our opponents in the few matches we did so far. In one scenario I was able to juke 2 vampires on one cap for enough time so that my teammates could take the other, only having to fight the other 2. Capping only stops when equal amounts of vampire and human players are in the area, so you could essentially force a cap if you know how to stay alive as human - remember that you're not forced to gravitate around the cap at all times.

The spawns also sometimes benefit the human team when they land you right on the other cap whilst the rest of the team is still engaged with the enemy - sometimes giving you enough time to actually get the cap.

The one thing that worries me so far in this mode is the relative utility you get with sentinels, whose inherent ability to traverse the map super quickly makes them a far better pick than any of the other characters. No idea how much of an issue that might be yet, as I don't have enough matches under my belt to tell, but it seems like a no brainer that it would be problematic.

Also, the bonfire sound is super loud and annoying, please change it and reduce the volume significantly.

chriZor
15th Jan 2015, 22:47
well, give it a little bit more time of testing :-)


-chriZ0r

BalaGi
15th Jan 2015, 23:03
4. stop the sound... the audio is terrible.. literally breaks the game... too hard to hear things


4 - I have no sound issues- -Check your settings.

Also, the bonfire sound is super loud and annoying, please change it and reduce the volume significantly.
About the sound. I got a glitch, that appear only in flashpoint mode (played twice), everything is just like repeat 3 times... i have no words to describe so i upload a video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt9kGsu0zv Are we talking about the same? If not, i gonna try some more times and then probably post about it in "bugs" forum.

Psyonix_Corey
15th Jan 2015, 23:06
Have to ask though if its intended that the timers for the siege/ flashpoint objects continue to tick even if its a contested point with vampires attacking.

I have a faint memory of the timers stopping during a contested object back in the days it was called Siege.

Currently they only freeze if it's contested by an EQUAL number of vampires. Each vampire negates one human. So 3 humans vs. 2 vampires, it will progress, but not as quickly as if no vampires were present.

We can revisit this logic if needed, but didn't want cases like a single Tyrant running around with Ignore Pain on to freeze objectives.

We're adjusting the audio.

ParadoxicalOmen
16th Jan 2015, 00:49
I disagree completely with op.
It's too easy to win with humans, all you need to do is send 1 of the team to the other domination point.
Vamps waste their time on the other domination point, and all the dead humans respawn at the domination point the sneaky human is...

I can only imagine humans losing in a very unbalanced match (one team way more skilled than the other).

I have a few suggestion to perhaps make it more balanced:
- Make it only 1 domination point, and perhaps reduce the amount of points to dominate (like maybe 4?)
- Maintain 2 domination points but make it take longer to capture these points
- Maintain 2 domination points but make the influence range bigger

ps: although i am complaining, i did like the game mode idea. And was very nice to take the kills out of the equation (back when it was "Siege", it was basically a dm because of the kills).
Flashpoint just needs some adjustments imo to make it more balanced

Ysanoire
16th Jan 2015, 02:07
Not a competitive player, but feedback from public matches:

I agree the time available to humans is a bit too generous. Most of the rounds I played (not too many so far, admittedly) were 6-0 or 5-1 for humans, unless the human team was REALLY bad, because with all that time, they were always EVENTUALLY able to capture, either by throwing people at the points continuously, or thanks to good spawns. Normal Siege would have ended much earlier than that because with humans failing, vampires would have achieved the kill requirement, but as it is, we got like 50+ kills as vamps and STILL sometimes lost most of the points. As vampires it felt we were defending those points forever.

Halpachino
16th Jan 2015, 02:34
I think they should throw away the six point cap and the time add on .
It should be a race against the clock to capture as many points as possible with in the allotted time frame the team with the most points at the end wins .
Having a six point cap means alot of games will just end in a draw.

SilentVirtue
16th Jan 2015, 02:35
So i just played with some of the immortal guys (2 man stack on each team)

Had a few games and a few things became painfully obvious.. a single death for the vampire usually means at least a 1/2 cap.

the games were incredibly fun and though the server cut thru the 2nd match, it was still going to end up as a draw.

Humans should have 20 points to cap, with a 10 min timer, meaning that its not who can cap them the fastest, its who can cap the most in the time frame! 20 so that even a skilled team of humans must play really really well all game, now just to put things into perspective, capping a point is another 75 seconds,

Thus 20 points = seconds (25 mins)

So the max a game time can last would be 35 mins, but on average it would probably last around 10-15 mins)

At esl, it would allow for teams to change strategies mid match etc.

The exact number of cap points needed could be edited, but the basic maths is that humans (on average) take about 2 mins to cap a point.

chriZor
16th Jan 2015, 14:17
We're adjusting the audio.

For the audio problem. I think it isn't too loud - the problem is that everytime you enter the zone, your sound-sample "Flame on" starts, but didn't end when you leave. If you'r running in and out your "Flame On"-Sample looping a couple times and it's getting "loud".

-chriZor

RainaAudron
16th Jan 2015, 14:26
For the audio problem. I think it isn't too loud - the problem is that everytime you enter the zone, your sound-sample "Flame on" starts, but didn't end when you leave. If you'r running in and out your "Flame On"-Sample looping a couple times and it's getting "loud".

Yeah, which over time causes bad stuttering...

Protekt1
16th Jan 2015, 17:51
I kinda felt like the whole thing was designed to be human advantaged. So my experience was that things were pretty well balanced. As such I disagree with most of the things about balance. Gonna take more time and statistics are better than "feels" or our individual subjective experiences.

GanonPCP
17th Jan 2015, 00:11
Ok, maybe I'm missing something or this is really bad design: I now had some matches where one team was clearly better than the other. If the better Team starts as vampires that means that the humans might finish the first round with only 1 point. Now the roles change and the better team is on offense. They quickly take 2 points... and it's over, right? There is no way for the other team to come back, they lost, but the game drags on because of the time bonus (which is to large, as others said before me).

Ths really makes no sense to me. In Siege, vampires could gain points for kills, now they can't earn any points. This is really problematic in my eyes.

Psyonix_Corey
17th Jan 2015, 00:46
Ok, maybe I'm missing something or this is really bad design: I now had some matches where one team was clearly better than the other. If the better Team starts as vampires that means that the humans might finish the first round with only 1 point. Now the roles change and the better team is on offense. They quickly take 2 points... and it's over, right? There is no way for the other team to come back, they lost, but the game drags on because of the time bonus (which is to large, as others said before me).

Ths really makes no sense to me. In Siege, vampires could gain points for kills, now they can't earn any points. This is really problematic in my eyes.

How is this any different than a TDM where a bad human team only gets 5 kills, then switches to vampires and dies 6 times?

Khalith
17th Jan 2015, 03:39
How is this any different than a TDM where a bad human team only gets 5 kills, then switches to vampires and dies 6 times?

It's not different fair enough, but the whole surrender option has been brought up before to end the game when it reaches that scenario. It might not be a bad idea to implement it and see how it works out.

--Ram--
18th Jan 2015, 16:09
One concern I have so far with flashpoint is that after a close fight on a point where humans are first able to take the point before some or all of them wipe, humans can spawn across the map near their next point. It is basically beneficial for them to die in this scenario, since they also have hp replenished ready for the next fight. I would like to see it being a little more punishing when humans die due to spawns being positioned such that they aren't saving time by dying rather than running to the next node.

Cristari
18th Jan 2015, 16:12
I agree on the spawn timer it is extended for Vampires but not for Humans. This should not be the case the two should spawn in the same amount of time.

GanonPCP
18th Jan 2015, 20:30
Hmm, I guess you're right. It just felt worse to me in Flashpoint. Especially since the game keeps getting longer with each capture of the winning team and you can't even score when defending. Of course you still earn EXP for kills, which is why I always played those matches to the end.

FireWorks_
18th Jan 2015, 20:37
6mins + 5*1,25mins(75sec) = 12,25mins if they really want to farm your ass for even more XP instead of finishing the match.

Personally Id like to see the starting time cut instead of the added bonus. Ends bad matches faster and puts more weight on successful caps.

AntiqueGod
18th Jan 2015, 21:12
- Some FPS drops on Fane for example
- Audio issues
- Fire sound is too loud
- Respawn is sometimes retarted
- Too much drawn games, i think team who had more time should win, instead of points.
+ Rewards and match time is good, atleast now a lot of players play it because they get more gold and exp

This is much better then Siege mode, good luck devs with open beta.

Ysanoire
18th Jan 2015, 22:42
^^ Draws

I think if the time is not adjusted (and even if it is) time remaining could be used as winning criterion, because there's a lot of draws right now.

RazielWarmonic
19th Jan 2015, 01:21
I disagree with the majority of points Silent has made. I don't think the majority of them are true.

However, I believe if Flashpoint spawn locations/timers were fixed, it would be a lot better.
Vampires shouldn't have a delayed spawn compared to humans.
Humans shouldn't be able to spawn on active points if their team isn't already there (Example being, humans are dying on point A in the NE corner of the map, and slowly spawn at point B on the SW corner of the map as the vampires are still cleaning up point A.)

Sentinel is GOOD in the game mode, he's fine for now in my opinion.

Perhaps try out one vampire being able to stop a point capture (they all have super small radius anyway, it's not like they could hide and do it) despite being outnumbered by humans.

Move health stations around so they can't be accessed while capturing.

Human cap time should not be the same if there is only one, imo. The rate it goes at now should be all players, and if there is a human across the map trying to capture a different point it should be slower.

One Flashpoint oriented map would be interesting to see. I know all the current maps are built for TDM, but the fact of the matter is Flashpoint is going to be the competitive mode, TDM has too many band-aids for competitive at the moment, and you have to force the meta of "vampires attack".

Psyonix_Corey
19th Jan 2015, 01:47
Vampires shouldn't have a delayed spawn compared to humans.
Humans shouldn't be able to spawn on active points if their team isn't already there (Example being, humans are dying on point A in the NE corner of the map, and slowly spawn at point B on the SW corner of the map as the vampires are still cleaning up point A.)

We found the extra spawn delay was needed in our testing to make it possible to have any kind of capturing "breather" if you won a teamfight as humans, but can definitely consider increasing human spawn time. It's already been increased slightly in the next patch that's queued up to 15 seconds. Vamps are at 18 currently, like on live.

Spawning on active points is easy to argue against, but it was a really frustrating mode to play when we were forcibly ignoring team spawning if your teammate was at an objective. We can look at an alternative spawning model that doesn't spawn you on top of active objectives with your teammates, but also not on the far side of the map. I agree the "respawn and insta cap as a team" that sometimes happens is bad.


Perhaps try out one vampire being able to stop a point capture (they all have super small radius anyway, it's not like they could hide and do it) despite being outnumbered by humans.

Not sold on this yet, too easy to arbitrarily elongate / kite grief, but I would be more open to vamps outnumbering humans actually decaying the capture progress instead of just halting it.


Move health stations around so they can't be accessed while capturing..

Agree this would be a positive change.

--Ram--
19th Jan 2015, 04:02
^^ Draws

I think if the time is not adjusted (and even if it is) time remaining could be used as winning criterion, because there's a lot of draws right now.

I am surprised that time isn't used to avoid draws in 6-6 games in a similar way to many other "assault" type gamemodes

snejjjj
19th Jan 2015, 06:33
While mates hav this sound issues too, i have no problem, but the fire is too loud!

Why vamps spawn on capture points in the first round? Shouldnt the way be the same for humans/vamps to go to cp?

FireWorks_
19th Jan 2015, 08:33
Corey, did you try that one vampire could halt the cap progress alone? I had a couple situations that were frustrating cause we were fighting 2v2 on an almost capped point. We show up in time and stop it, but one of the vamps briefly steps out of the capping area, they gain progress again and we lose it.
On the same topic: Please outline the actual capping area on the ground. Either in bright arcade styled yellow lines or more dark themed coal marking on the floor. It might be pretty clear in most cases but caps like C of Sommerdamm (ruin house) had a lot of fighting that should have happend in the capping area 1m away.


I think the capping speed for 1-4humans should be the same to allow effective split pushes, but Id grant the vampires a similar right to have 1 blocking the cap. I am sure it have a lot of impact on the game, but I think it would turn out more tactical and give more feeling of changing the battles' outcome to all players.

tl;dr
mark cap area on ground
let 1-4 players cap at same speed (like now) - let 1 player stop any cap -> longer, more meaningful battles. more depth to tactics like split pushes

Rago600
19th Jan 2015, 09:06
While mates hav this sound issues too, i have no problem, but the fire is too loud!

Why vamps spawn on capture points in the first round? Shouldnt the way be the same for humans/vamps to go to cp?

I got Problems with the Sound in the same way as you.

- Effects are to Lound in the AREA
- Only on my Sound System
- Using Headphones works without Problems

Ah btw. The New FANE is so much better than the Old one :)

mauvo58
19th Jan 2015, 09:31
Some pairs of objectives are much harder to capture than others. Objectives close to each other are much easier for Vampires to defend than ones at opposite ends of the map. Rather than trying to balance this, the goal could be to capture each objective once in any order you choose. The game would start easy for the Humans, with many objectives to choose from and Vampires struggling to cover them all. But as the game progress the balance would to swing towards the Vampires. This would mean the score better represents the relatives strengths of the 2 teams.

I'd also like to see less starting time, and more time capturing an objective.

AltAndrews
19th Jan 2015, 12:36
Tbh, what with different sections of the maps providing both advantages and disadvantages to one team, I think the random sequence with which points light up could lead to games that benefit one team based on RNG alone, especially in a close game. If a human team keeps getting the animal store and the fountain on Provance repeatedly, they'd hold a clear advantage over a team who can only choose between the storage area and the gate.

I'd suggest putting a fixed sequence of dual caps, similar to a rush gamemode. That'll present a constant identical objective for both teams, removing the element of randomness which somewhat cripples Flashpoint currently. Since it's clear some point are easier to cap than others, it should be easy to establish that sequence to go from easiest to hardest, and would also remove the need to rebalance many parts of all the maps to be equally balanced for both teams.

So, yeah. Put up a fixed sequence.

Vampmaster
19th Jan 2015, 12:47
There needs to be feedback onscreen for when the vampires prevent a capture. Do vampires get extra XP for anything in this mode like the humans do for captures? I think they probably should and if they already do, it should be announced on screen like captures are.

AdmiralPPR
19th Jan 2015, 12:53
Tbh, what with different sections of the maps providing both advantages and disadvantages to one team, I think the random sequence with which points light up could lead to games that benefit one team based on RNG alone, especially in a close game. If a human team keeps getting the animal store and the fountain on Provance repeatedly, they'd hold a clear advantage over a team who can only choose between the storage area and the gate.

I'd suggest putting a fixed sequence of dual caps, similar to a rush gamemode. That'll present a constant identical objective for both teams, removing the element of randomness which somewhat cripples Flashpoint currently. Since it's clear some point are easier to cap than others, it should be easy to establish that sequence to go from easiest to hardest, and would also remove the need to rebalance many parts of all the maps to be equally balanced for both teams.

So, yeah. Put up a fixed sequence.

That is 100% needed for competitive play - also makes it easier* for the devs to set up custom spawn areas that are somewhat fair.

Additionally I found it pretty annoying leveling my vamp classes in Flashpoint - is there a "denied capture"-xp-tick for the vamps I just didn't see? If not - implement plz :D

(*At least from an external dev's perspective who has no idea of the underlying system :D)

lucinvampire
19th Jan 2015, 12:59
Goodbye TDM and helllllllllloooooooo FP! Finally got to play at the weekend - dude I have so missed Siege so much but I'm loving this new mode - so good so so good with the changes! :thumb:

I'd just like to say though that it just seemed odd that the game would just flit between two points - and not give you option to capture certain ones, example The Bridge in Sommerdamm never came up in our matches.

A point on Sommerdamm which seemed harder than any other on there to capture was point C (the one just outside the ruined building).

Anyway reeeeaaaaaaallllllllyyyyyyyyy looooooooovvvvveeeeeee the new mode - it's great to have this type of mode back - I'm just hoping people keep to playing it. I love being able to be suicidial vampires again and not get moaned at :D :D :D

Vampmaster
19th Jan 2015, 13:00
I love being able to be suicidial vampires again and not get moaned at :D :D :D

Hahaha! :D

HexMee
19th Jan 2015, 14:34
Okay I hated FP from the first second I stepped into the gamemode BUT I havn't been able to pinpoint what exactly irks me the most, untill now.

There is no difference in score from a flawless encounter and a really close/lucky encounter.

Lets say that in the first round my team as humans defend a point without any loss on our side, we completely wipe the vampires and get a capture for it, great. Fast forward and we're starting our vampire side, our first fight boils down to a 1-on-1 fight between our last player and theirs, which the last human survives from with just a sliver of health and he gets the capture for his trouble.

In this scenario, do we not deserve to get some kind of score for killing off 3 players? Because right now the reward is the same for us as it was for them when they playd vampire and got obliterated without a chance.
Flash Point solved a lot of issues siege had but in this regard here I think the score system from siege was a LOT better.

Also I think this mode will create very boring matchups and kills the few close and nail-biting matches that we have seen in the past in TDM.
Why? Because if two teams are almost identical in skill but with one team being slightly ahead in TDM it would result in a 60-59 score game. What happens in FP? a 6-0 game because to get any score at all you need to wipe the other team, getting 1-3 kills does jack ****, same problem here that humans are not rewarded for killing off 3 vampires in a fight.

--Ram--
19th Jan 2015, 15:20
Tbh, what with different sections of the maps providing both advantages and disadvantages to one team, I think the random sequence with which points light up could lead to games that benefit one team based on RNG alone, especially in a close game. If a human team keeps getting the animal store and the fountain on Provance repeatedly, they'd hold a clear advantage over a team who can only choose between the storage area and the gate.

I'd suggest putting a fixed sequence of dual caps, similar to a rush gamemode. That'll present a constant identical objective for both teams, removing the element of randomness which somewhat cripples Flashpoint currently. Since it's clear some point are easier to cap than others, it should be easy to establish that sequence to go from easiest to hardest, and would also remove the need to rebalance many parts of all the maps to be equally balanced for both teams.
So, yeah. Put up a fixed sequence.

Really good suggestion, +1 from me



Lets say that in the first round my team as humans defend a point without any loss on our side, we completely wipe the vampires and get a capture for it, great. Fast forward and we're starting our vampire side, our first fight boils down to a 1-on-1 fight between our last player and theirs, which the last human survives from with just a sliver of health and he gets the capture for his trouble.

In this scenario, do we not deserve to get some kind of score for killing off 3 players?

I don't think you deserve any kind of actual score for killing the 3 humans, but I think that doing so should earn you some kind of advantage in terms of map control. At the moment human respawns are often far too favorable, I don't think the respawning team should be located near their next capture point by chance or design. the penalty for death should be a penalty. As things stand currently it is sometimes a boon as humans reach their next point quicker than they could have by running, and with full hp.

Another spawn related situation I encounter is where a single human splits off from the team to contest point A, the other 3 contest point B. The point B group fights and lose but manage to kill some vampires and draw them away from point A. Then they all magically spawn on their team mate at A and take the easy cap. Not sure I like this as it feels somewhat cheesy/cheap to me. Would like to hear some other opinions on this.

Cristari
19th Jan 2015, 17:55
Hmm, I guess you're right. It just felt worse to me in Flashpoint. Especially since the game keeps getting longer with each capture of the winning team and you can't even score when defending. Of course you still earn EXP for kills, which is why I always played those matches to the end.

Everything the Humans don't get the Vampires get. Haven't you noticed that yet?


Spawning on active points is easy to argue against, but it was a really frustrating mode to play when we were forcibly ignoring team spawning if your teammate was at an objective. We can look at an alternative spawning model that doesn't spawn you on top of active objectives with your teammates, but also not on the far side of the map. I agree the "respawn and insta cap as a team" that sometimes happens is bad.

I dont think the point people are making is spawning on team mates at a spawn. To me that is fine it is spawning by yourself no other team mates to be able to spawn on and being spawned at a capturable point.

lucinvampire
19th Jan 2015, 19:18
I meant to say earlier I really like the counter with the spinning cogs - very steampunk! :D

ParadoxicalOmen
25th Jan 2015, 02:39
Not sure if this is the best place to post it, but i found a Flashpoint bug.
Recently i spawned inside the "control point"....that's basically it, i got stuck for a while but was able to get out after about 4-5 rolls