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SilentVirtue
13th Jan 2015, 14:48
Hey guys, wanted to have a discussion about your opinions of stacking premade lobbies of 4 people, or sometimes less.

Random matches for me are inherently boring, it usually consists of me going a really high score and watching my team flounder around trying to figure out that 3 alchemists don't counter 4 sentinels, this frustrates me to no end as I'm sure it does for a lot of people.

Because of the potential huge skill different in games, it usually means I don't find the game interesting or challenging and thus get bored... to counter this, me and my friends have been teaming up and playing together... its a good laugh, until people start raging about premades.

Our scoures usually go somewhere between 60-10 mostly due to the fact that we are all on voice comms and its a little unfair to watch the enemy vamps and humans run around solo dying.

So with this in mind, our games usually feature somewhere between 5-10 leavers... some people leave before there is even 10 kills into the game.

This extends the game time and forces us into two impossible choices, keep playing and hope that the 3 man on the other team don't all rage quit.,... or wait while an innumerable amount of people join and leave. This is further more not fun.

With the current issues with private lobbies, I'm finding that the only real games I'm actually experiencing is inside of ESL, this leaves 6.5days pub stomping and making people hate the game.

With the current state of private lobbies, finding an EU server to scrim with is near impossible, forcing us into pub games.

Obviously a 4 man stack making newer players quit the game is not good for anyone, so I'm looking for a solution to the problem and I think this solution should be sufficient for beta.

1. Make it so that is a player leaves a game, that is the only game the player can re-join into until that match is over
2. Make it so that leaving still equates to a loss for the them (to combat stat focused players leaving to keep win% up)
3. stop players hot joining, they're just going to leave again anyway.
4. Statistically, if a player crashes, he will crash when both winning and losing, look for patterns of people that only "crash" when losing and start to implement a leaver buster.

This is a discussion specifically involved around the topics mentioned, please refrain from any personal (or any other) kind of attacks please, lets try to keep this civil

Zurtonn
13th Jan 2015, 15:04
I agree with silent, knowing I have some other possibilities I wanted to highlight.
Knowing the game is still in beta and the final version of matchmaking hasen't been finished yet, I wanted to share my thoughts.

Easy ways to improve INDIVIDUAL, DUO or TRIO matchmaking are:
1) Before you can launch a game there is a que time of at least one minute, so in this one minute the game can set up a kind of lobby with all players waiting for a game. This so simular skill levels can matched up to eachoter.
2) The incoming ranks that SE was talking about, would be a perfect variable to match equal skill expectations to eachoter.
3) I did put the words individual, duo and trio in capitals because i think, groups with 3 or more should be in a different lobby to search games. People grouping up with 4 prefer to play against another 4 man premade. Also this will make the pub stomping less!

If for example after one minute there is no opposing team found, more time will be added untill a team is found. If there is a bigger player base only the waiting can be decreased and increased if there are less players online.

Well these are my thoughts, I tried to express myself as best as I could! I'm curious to see how SE will implement the MM and ranking system!

SilentVirtue
13th Jan 2015, 15:56
Agreed that 4 man pre-mades should be in a separate lobby, before OB, maybe even get some sort of ranked que aswell.

Maybe also have it that you cannot see your opponents name until you're in game? would stop people RQ when they see it.

Ysanoire
13th Jan 2015, 16:06
I. Stacking

I actually think the only thing we need to "fix" the premade problem is matchmaking that actually works and a large enough player base for it to work with. I don't think premades would be a problem if the game put players of equal skill on the other side, which currently is usually not the case. It's more like half a pro team and their friends on one side, and three guys who are just learning how to fly with sentinel on the other.





1. Make it so that is a player leaves a game, that is the only game the player can re-join into until that match is over
2. Make it so that leaving still equates to a loss for the them (to combat stat focused players leaving to keep win% up)
3. stop players hot joining, they're just going to leave again anyway.
4. Statistically, if a player crashes, he will crash when both winning and losing, look for patterns of people that only "crash" when losing and start to implement a leaver buster.


I've said it before, I don't want any of this (except maybe #2). The guy who is so dissatisfied with the game that he decides to leave is of no use to me. Don't force him back on my team, he'll just go afk if you do. Get a new guy asap and give him incentive to stay.

FireWorks_
13th Jan 2015, 16:23
If you group up to fight boredom, why dont you play against eachother? You can still have eachother on mumble and enjoy a friendly banter. Not even talking about the value of knowing how your teammates play and improve via feedback.

I dont know why youd want to force people into your and your friends' meatgrinder. Sorry but you cant expect them to play just for your enjoyment.

The current state of the game doesnt allow for proper matches, it is frustrating. But to be fair: it never will. If you bring a full comp team you end a pub with casuals. Thats why competitive communities foster IRC channels for scrims since they exist. At some point you cant rely on the devs anymore.

What you can do is try to be helpful, teach people to get better, do coaching sessions, video. Stuff that you already tried in the past. It is the way to go. It adds players to both the matchmaking pool and sometimes the competitive pool.

--Ram--
13th Jan 2015, 16:30
1. Make it so that is a player leaves a game, that is the only game the player can re-join into until that match is over
2. Make it so that leaving still equates to a loss for the them (to combat stat focused players leaving to keep win% up)
3. stop players hot joining, they're just going to leave again anyway.
4. Statistically, if a player crashes, he will crash when both winning and losing, look for patterns of people that only "crash" when losing and start to implement a leaver buster.

This is a discussion specifically involved around the topics mentioned, please refrain from any personal (or any other) kind of attacks please, lets try to keep this civil

1. This would (I think) end up being similar to what happens in Dota, where someone who disconnects can rejoin but other than that they cannot be replaced. I think however it may be a bit much. I would prefer see some sort of grace period where the player who may have d/ced has a chance to rejoin. That then comes with a potentially significant wait however, so may do more harm than good. Not allowing anyone else to join at all basically grants any single ragequitter or griefer the power to ruin an entire game at will.

2. If a leave is to equate to a loss based on the game result, this would have to happen after party queues and solo queues are separated imo. It would be far too punishing for solo players facing stacks otherwise. If we are talking a proper theoretically balanced solo queue match or party vs party match I would support this.

3. Hot joining sucks, since it typically leads to you joining the badly losing side (which caused a ragequitter to empty a slot). Playing 4v3 or 4v2 also sucks. Not sure on this one, however the one thing I despite is hot joining a game with 1 second remaining and being granted a free insta loss. There should at least be a lock out time in the last minute where no one can join.

4. Not sure if needed and probably tough to implement accurately.

I think perhaps hiding names until in game would be OK once parties and solos are split, and leave penalties are introduced. If it were to be implemented now it may just lead to the game starting and THEN players ragequitting which is even worse imho. Also I think if it is clear to a player that they are lined up against a party which is guarenteed to roflstomp them they should have the option to avoid that game. Challenges and tough teams are fun but only if you have a vaguely competent team as well. That rarely happens unless you are also in a party.




I dont know why youd want to force people into your and your friends' meatgrinder. Sorry but you cant expect them to play just for your enjoyment.


This is true. I am guilty of meatgrinding myself at times, however I am never surprised when people leave within 3 minutes at 8-0. I tend to avoid large parties and solo/duo queue for this reason. Especially if playing on Aus servers, since a stack like that will often end a game and mean no players come back and no game will start at all after that. In theory splitting a good team of 4 to have 2 good players and 2 randoms each is a better idea and probably is more fun. In my experience however it is still not very fun since usually the deciding factor becomes which team has the worst feeder, and which team was fortunate enough to get 1-2 decent random players.

As Ysanoire says many of these problems would be diminished or disappear entirely if more people played Nosgoth and had enough games under their belt to adequately determine their skill levels.

SilentVirtue
13th Jan 2015, 16:37
If you group up to fight boredom, why dont you play against eachother? You can still have eachother on mumble and enjoy a friendly banter. Not even talking about the value of knowing how your teammates play and improve via feedback.

I dont know why youd want to force people into your and your friends' meatgrinder. Sorry but you cant expect them to play just for your enjoyment.

The current state of the game doesnt allow for proper matches, it is frustrating. But to be fair: it never will. If you bring a full comp team you end a pub with casuals. Thats why competitive communities foster IRC channels for scrims since they exist. At some point you cant rely on the devs anymore.

What you can do is try to be helpful, teach people to get better, do coaching sessions, video. Stuff that you already tried in the past. It is the way to go. It adds players to both the matchmaking pool and sometimes the competitive pool.

Until the patch today, we have been unable to scrim at all, due to issues with the servers, hell ESL had only 1 working EU server and so a 3 hour event took all day.

If they want to put 4 man in a lobby of their own i have no problems with it, but until scrims are working, were going to be in a public area.

My video's are still coming through, and going to keep coming for the foreseeable future, i agree raising the bar isn't a bad thing.

grouping up to fight boredom is usually what we aim to do, when private lobbies actually work, and we can reliably find an eu lobby, this will not be so much as a problem. we will probably have pick-up and in house games so that we can play and learn together.

Rago600
13th Jan 2015, 16:59
There´s nothing wrong with like you call it "Hot Joining" i rather join a Match, and stay on the Server instead of waiting in the Lobbys.
Also there are Moments when you have to quit, because of you got children and so on,...

Im the Consistent "Public" Player.(Usually i dont quit in a Match)

I highly suggest you to do Private Matches, there is a steam group "Private Match" too.

For me as "Public TDM" Player it is important to have a Match, i don´t care about the Skill players or Newbies :)
This is where MMR comes in for me.

So basically why should i get a Penalty, for having a Real life with real Problems,....?

I disagree.

SilentVirtue
13th Jan 2015, 17:14
the occasional disconnect wouldn't cause an issue, its repeated leaves. I'm not going to name and shame, but there's a group of players that leave if their score goes 1 point negative.

if I end up hot joining a lobby, i usually leave it before even spawning in. I don't want to join a game 1/2 way through cus someone quit whether the team is winning or losing.

A match lasts 20 minutes. (maximum) if you don't have the time to finish the game, don't start it. and if your looking after kids and may have to leave a game, maybe you should consider playing a game where 7 other people are not effected by your actions.

I've played games such a LOL/DOTA for well over 10 years, where leaving a game can get you banned (if done regularly) in my 10 years I have never been banned for leaving a game. planning my time so that I wouldn't start a game b4 parents called me to dinner etc. in those 10 years of gaming, I literally had a handful of RL issues that came up, I could literally count them on my fingers. (someone in hospital etc)

As an adult, you have full control over your time and how you spend it, but choosing to waste 7 people's by leaving a game and making it null seems very selfish.

FireWorks_
13th Jan 2015, 19:01
Until the patch today, we have been unable to scrim at all, due to issues with the servers, hell ESL had only 1 working EU server and so a 3 hour event took all day.

If they want to put 4 man in a lobby of their own i have no problems with it, but until scrims are working, were going to be in a public area.

My video's are still coming through, and going to keep coming for the foreseeable future, i agree raising the bar isn't a bad thing.

grouping up to fight boredom is usually what we aim to do, when private lobbies actually work, and we can reliably find an eu lobby, this will not be so much as a problem. we will probably have pick-up and in house games so that we can play and learn together.

I am not only talking about private lobbies. I am also talking about taking different teams in a pub. Play against your friends and enjoy their emotions while you do, or learn their weaknesses and give them feedback.
Not perfect, but its a better training than bashing noobs and has way less negative impact on the game as a whole.


As an adult, you have full control over your time and how you spend it, but choosing to waste 7 people's by leaving a game and making it null seems very selfish.

Why do you take actively part in ruining their playing experience? Sorry but if you go for a pubstomp and then blame people for leaving it, is a blantant reversal of perpetrator and victim.

We all veterans are responsible for not alienating players out of the game even further. The game does it already well enough, sadly. Have you counted the threads and reviews in the last month? People are sick of getting rekt by stacks and the players count is slightly ___Decreasing___ despite all the effort in friend referral etc.

Dont make this even worse. Take responsibility and do what you can to make it better.

Burial_Ground
13th Jan 2015, 19:07
As you can read on the nosgoth steam discussions forum, party splitting based on mmr advantage will be enabled soon.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/200110/discussions/0/622954023423107575/#p2


Corey [developer] January 12


"After some internal discussion, we will be re-enabling party splitting in lobbies where there is a single party with an MMR advantage on one team, as it worked before.

This will need to go through QA but should be deployed before next week if all goes well."

FireWorks_
13th Jan 2015, 19:23
As you can read on the nosgoth steam discussions forum, party splitting based on mmr advantage will be enabled soon.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/200110/discussions/0/622954023423107575/#p2




(http://steamcommunity.com/app/200110/discussions/0/622954023423107575/#p2)

Hopefully they do it smarter this time so people cant just rejoin their friend via the friend list to circumvent the splitting. The first implementation was pointless.

SilentVirtue
13th Jan 2015, 19:29
Hopefully they do it smarter this time so people cant just rejoin their friend via the friend list to circumvent the splitting. The first implementation was pointless.

Unfortunately that's exactly what we will do, why bother letting us have a party system if it wont let us party?

There's usually a few 4 man stacks around at any one point... just match us with those.

Devs are currently looking into the private match issues (source: Twitter)

FireWorks_
13th Jan 2015, 20:36
Unfortunately that's exactly what we will do, why bother letting us have a party system if it wont let us party?



I already wrote you the answer twice in this thread. You also described yourself as adult already. How about you act like it and stop beating on weaker and stop being a ********?

You are willingly and actively destroying the playerbase, great! Keep going til you are the only one left.

Ysanoire
13th Jan 2015, 20:45
As you can read on the nosgoth steam discussions forum, party splitting based on mmr advantage will be enabled soon.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/200110/discussions/0/622954023423107575/#p2

(http://steamcommunity.com/app/200110/discussions/0/622954023423107575/#p2)

What? Hell no, don't!

Especially if the splitting is still handled by the same broken algorithm. The previous version of this feature was incredibly annoying, splitting parties that didn't have to be split because **** you that's why.

If parties have to be split it means the matchmaking isn't working.

FireWorks_
13th Jan 2015, 20:55
What? Hell no, don't!

Especially if the splitting is still handled by the same broken algorithm. The previous version of this feature was incredibly annoying, splitting parties that didn't have to be split because f*** you that's why.

If parties have to be split it means the matchmaking isn't working.

And we all know by now (and endless discussions about it) that there are not enough players for matchmaking.

So whats your approach? Just keep feeding you newbies til they are all gone? How would you solve it?

Ysanoire
13th Jan 2015, 21:29
And we all know by now (and endless discussions about it) that there are not enough players for matchmaking.

So whats your approach? Just keep feeding you newbies til they are all gone? How would you solve it?

I would be ok with that solution if a) it is necessary at a given time and b) actually improved balance in the lobby, but that's not how it worked. It would split me with my friends just to put the same level player on my/their team. It was unnecessary, did nothing for the balance and was really annoying. Chances are we're getting the same crap now because who would work on a feature that belonged to the old system and that wasn't supposed to be implemented, right?

RainaAudron
13th Jan 2015, 21:35
I do hope they won´t bring the split party system back in. It was so random at best and just uncessary prolonged time to find a lobby, as people would usually leave, because they wanted to play together in the first place. It is a team game, after all. We really need a solo and a team queue and then we will have no need for the split nonsense.

Shutenti
13th Jan 2015, 22:11
Imagine for a moment that the servers would recognize that there aren't 4 randoms seeking who have enough MMR to face your party and just kept on adding more until there were enough! 8v4! 12v4! It'll never happen because Programming is Hard and also Lag, but man wouldn't that be an amazing asymmetric game mode? The heroes against the horde? Hell I'd love to play on both sides of that.

Back to the real world, hopefully the fixed private servers will make it easier to get scrims. It's a problem when the people who love and invest in Nosgoth the most have got so good they can't have fun playing it any more.

Personally I loved the chance to go up against a high skilled team, but it quickly turns into a very different game when your own team is continually charging in to die alone then quitting and being replaced. The only thing to do as a random pub player in this situation is to:
1. Charge in alone or in a pair and die
2. Play "try to convince random people to play as a team in a clearly hopeless
match" over and over again as people drop and are replaced
3. Quit and look for a match that is recognizable as the Nosgoth you know and love
4. Talk to the high skilled players and try to learn from them (thanks for the video, Silent!)

I saw a lot of people trying 1-3 in roughly that order and I don't blame them.

This becomes a problem now because the best players play the most; a clan stack pub stomping for 3 hours must lead to what, 60 rage quits over that time? That's a lot of unhappy people, I don't know if it could be enough to reduce the player base but that'd be a nasty vicious circle if it did.

TL;DR: everyone wants to have a good time, how about a handicap system for random public matches with a highly-imbalanced MMR e.g. more health, booster + weapon effect multipliers or reduced HP for the stronger team? Protip: clearly mark these as "challenge match 4xHP!" or whatever so everyone involved knows the stats are changed versus the usual "balanced match".

PencileyePirate
13th Jan 2015, 23:06
I do hope they won´t bring the split party system back in. It was so random at best and just uncessary prolonged time to find a lobby, as people would usually leave, because they wanted to play together in the first place. It is a team game, after all. We really need a solo and a team queue and then we will have no need for the split nonsense.

^this. Party splitting sucked.

I've said it before but I think CS GO's approach is perfect for Nosgoth. Having a Casual mode and a Competitive mode with slightly different rule-sets (especially for leavers & mixed rank parties) is a great way to naturally separate solo queues from pre-mades ... ultimately players will gravitate toward the mode that suits them best.

P.S. I feel like defaulting a Casual mode to 5v5 might also be interesting/fun, but that's a completely different discussion.

--Ram--
14th Jan 2015, 04:02
What? Hell no, don't!

Especially if the splitting is still handled by the same broken algorithm. The previous version of this feature was incredibly annoying, splitting parties that didn't have to be split because **** you that's why.

If parties have to be split it means the matchmaking isn't working.

So much this. I had played games under the old system where "skill" was determined by level (prior to MMR patch). I was in a party, yet the system decided - for no reason other than to troll me - to take me (lvl40) out of my party, only to insert another random (also lvl40). Explain that ****.




I've said it before but I think CS GO's approach is perfect for Nosgoth. Having a Casual mode and a Competitive mode with slightly different rule-sets (especially for leavers & mixed rank parties) is a great way to naturally separate solo queues from pre-mades ... ultimately players will gravitate toward the mode that suits them best.



That would be great I think.

FireWorks_
14th Jan 2015, 08:00
I would be ok with that solution if a) it is necessary at a given time and b) actually improved balance in the lobby, but that's not how it worked. It would split me with my friends just to put the same level player on my/their team. It was unnecessary, did nothing for the balance and was really annoying. Chances are we're getting the same crap now because who would work on a feature that belonged to the old system and that wasn't supposed to be implemented, right?


I do hope they won´t bring the split party system back in. It was so random at best and just uncessary prolonged time to find a lobby, as people would usually leave, because they wanted to play together in the first place. It is a team game, after all. We really need a solo and a team queue and then we will have no need for the split nonsense.




This becomes a problem now because the best players play the most; a clan stack pub stomping for 3 hours must lead to what, 60 rage quits over that time? That's a lot of unhappy people, I don't know if it could be enough to reduce the player base but that'd be a nasty vicious circle if it did.



So much this. I had played games under the old system where "skill" was determined by level (prior to MMR patch). I was in a party, yet the system decided - for no reason other than to troll me - to take me (lvl40) out of my party, only to insert another random (also lvl40). Explain that ****.



That would be great I think.

What I take from these comments is that the IMPLEMENTATION was really BAD.
You get split up, just to either circumvent it yourself or be replaced by someone of similar "skill". The team distribution of players in the lobby was borked til they hid levels. Likely it is now.

By now I like to call it Psyonix style: Bring a half assed implementation without thought to side effects and strings attached. Just bad engineering and development skills. Or how they call it nowadays: "Beta"
And I gotta admit when they said "reenable it", I thought they would also do a proper bug fix pass and rework it. That could be likely a wrong assumption and I agree with you all now, that re-enabling it is a just bad idea.

SilentVirtue
14th Jan 2015, 11:29
What I take from these comments is that the IMPLEMENTATION was really BAD.
You get split up, just to either circumvent it yourself or be replaced by someone of similar "skill". The team distribution of players in the lobby was borked til they hid levels. Likely it is now.

By now I like to call it Psyonix style: Bring a half assed implementation without thought to side effects and strings attached. Just bad engineering and development skills. Or how they call it nowadays: "Beta"
And I gotta admit when they said "reenable it", I thought they would also do a proper bug fix pass and rework it. That could be likely a wrong assumption and I agree with you all now, that re-enabling it is a just bad idea.

Fire, I understand we have a difference in opinion, but lets not start with the name calling, I raised this issue to have a constructive discussion about how we can improve the game for all players, not just the new ones... player retention is an issue for everyone. and we need to make it so that the game is able to cater for the majority of the player base, while keeping esports and esl viable.

Personal attacks on the devs or myself is not going to help you put your point across.

As you can see, splitting friends up seems to be a bad thing the community does not wish to see (based upon the current feedback) so how else can we make the game fair for new/weaker players when going up against a stack?

FireWorks_
14th Jan 2015, 12:13
Fire, I understand we have a difference in opinion, but lets not start with the name calling, I raised this issue to have a constructive discussion about how we can improve the game for all players, not just the new ones... player retention is an issue for everyone. and we need to make it so that the game is able to cater for the majority of the player base, while keeping esports and esl viable.

Personal attacks on the devs or myself is not going to help you put your point across.

As you can see, splitting friends up seems to be a bad thing the community does not wish to see (based upon the current feedback) so how else can we make the game fair for new/weaker players when going up against a stack?

Let me rephrase it then:
It would be nice if advanced players would refrain from insisting on the right to directly and indirectly destroy the experience of new players. Still not good, but it is the core at the moment.

2 actual facts:
-We lack players.
-A game need a healthy pub playerbase to foster a competitive community out of it.

Anything to stop alienating them even further is welcomed. From devs and us. While it takes devs time to work at things, we can start right at this very moment.



A few of the highlights of past discussions:
Get rid of stats - TF2 style. Winning or losing has no more impact.
Surrender vote - End lobsided/leaver matches early
High drop rate - Like it was on the first day in the mid december patch. Everyone wanted to stay for the items in the end

Rago600
14th Jan 2015, 12:29
My Suggestion would be 2 Different Lobbys:

Party TDM
TDM free for all.

How so ?

I uderstand the Player who wants to Play with his Friends not against him.
I also think Splitting up People for More balance is a Good Idea.

So why not making 2 Lobby´s ?
If you dont find a Match you can still join the FFA.

Vampmaster
14th Jan 2015, 12:58
How would you deal with parties of two or three? My idea would be to have 5 players in the match and allow groups of two and three or two and two to be merged into one team. You'd get 5v4 occasionally, but that would be less significant in the larger teams. Or you could just requite a full team before the search could start.

I've wanted to be able to create parties of more than 4 for a while now. Players would have to volunteer to either sit out or volunteer play on the opposing team when there's too many for one team.

Whoopdidoohah
14th Jan 2015, 14:25
This is closed beta, players are learning the game. New players log in daily.

I think it's time for Psy to remove their heads from the sand and to realise that you're chasing new players away when you pit them against experienced lvl 40s playing together. I know I do it beforehand. But I also solo like half of my game time and can feel the pain of new players playing solo in that environment. Dont get me wrong I'm not QQing against partys, I'm just saying that there should be an option for new players, that lasts longer than 10 lvls, to remain in the 'learning' bracket, be it based on win% or whatever, so that these players dont get to play WITH and AGAINST experienced players, spoiling their games.

Nothing infuriates me more than having to solo play a team of 4 with a bunch of newbies playing sentinels on my side, while I have to carry them, make 16+ kills and still LOSE sometimes, because two of them get 0-12 and do barely any ******* damage, then you ask them if there's anything wrong and check their profiles only to see that they got the game yesterday, YAY, that guy just unlocked sentinel and dive bombs to his death like crazy. It's astonishing to watch new players play I mean, having both spectres of the playerbase in the same lobbies is retarded, from both PoVs. Give them an environment to learn and test their **** out, 10 lvls isn't sufficient.

For the competitive side of things, I think it would be better to have an unranked Q (with an /hours played limit), and then a ranked Q (which would then put players in a ladder(s) based on different factors like win% team, win% solo, dmg / death, dmg / game, KDR, etc etc). Then when a player reaches 200 hours he can't go back to the new recruit lobbies. Then the playerbase couldn't say they were thrown into the wolves den armed with a butterknife.

I also would encourage the losing team players with a generic buffer or player handicap, like a 5% HP boost, 5% damage boost, 5% less dmg inc, for each consecutive team wipes (4-0, 8-0, 5-1), always counting from the last kill of the losing team. Make it so that there's possibly a come back coming around the corner, make the players HOPE and stay in game. Make it so that the winning team dosen't get any buffs if it wipes, only the losing team.

I also would like to see introduced, when games are very tight, like ending 30-29, a sudden death or overtime situation, where you have to get to 5 more kills than your opponent to win, and an extension of 5 mins in time limit. Would make close games even more interesting, you know these epic games finishing 59-60, having an extension of 5 mins of each rounds would just be icing on the cake.

Also, a lot of players are leveling mysterious skills and need XP, so losing isn't profitable, so they'd rather leave the lobby or in game when pit against a better team, put a generic amount of XP earned at the end so players feel less penalized staying the course of a bad game.

In the end, rework the system a bit (new recruit lobby is good in theory but in practice, it needs tweaking), and provide incentives to stay in games.

Jallford
14th Jan 2015, 14:35
1. Make it so that is a player leaves a game, that is the only game the player can re-join into until that match is over
2. Make it so that leaving still equates to a loss for the them (to combat stat focused players leaving to keep win% up)
3. stop players hot joining, they're just going to leave again anyway.
4. Statistically, if a player crashes, he will crash when both winning and losing, look for patterns of people that only "crash" when losing and start to implement a leaver buster.

This is a discussion specifically involved around the topics mentioned, please refrain from any personal (or any other) kind of attacks please, lets try to keep this civilAll of these solutions punish players who leave. Which is great for you, but terrible for randoms who just want to enjoy a game.

I get that people leaving games just because they're losing is naff. But going up against group after group of premade 4 mans isn't fun, you can't punish people for not wanting to waste 20 minutes dying repeatedly against an organised, premade team.

There needs to be a separate queue but there just isn't enough players for that yet. Until there is I'm going to keep leaving tedious matches against full premade teams.

Whoopdidoohah
14th Jan 2015, 15:01
All of these solutions punish players who leave. Which is great for you, but terrible for randoms who just want to enjoy a game.

I get that people leaving games just because they're losing is naff. But going up against group after group of premade 4 mans isn't fun, you can't punish people for not wanting to waste 20 minutes dying repeatedly against an organised, premade team.

There needs to be a separate queue but there just isn't enough players for that yet. Until there is I'm going to keep leaving tedious matches against full premade teams.

Leaving against teams in a TEAM game is just ... mind boggling. I'll leave it at that. Like I'm telling QQers in game, get a team yourself. So easy to make friends in Nosgoth. Pick up a headset and join the various clans. You don't have to be the ultimate best, people are grouping up because it's just more fun.

Winning against premades is possible. It's just you, deciding to not even give it a shot.

Separating the Qs would fix it, but what about groups of 2-3, they will play in the solo bracket, so you'll still complain in the end, and still ragequit. A longer 'new recruit' lobby is what you need.

Jallford
14th Jan 2015, 16:30
Leaving against teams in a TEAM game is just ... mind boggling. I'll leave it at that. Like I'm telling QQers in game, get a team yourself. So easy to make friends in Nosgoth. Pick up a headset and join the various clans. You don't have to be the ultimate best, people are grouping up because it's just more fun.

Winning against premades is possible. It's just you, deciding to not even give it a shot.

Separating the Qs would fix it, but what about groups of 2-3, they will play in the solo bracket, so you'll still complain in the end, and still ragequit. A longer 'new recruit' lobby is what you need.I've beaten premades before, but mostly you lose without a chance of fighting back, your team is made up of people of varying skill levels who don't work together as well. How is one disorganised team vs one organised team a mind boggling situation? You're at a disadvantage, why wouldn't you leave a match where you're at a clear, often insurmountable disadvantage in favour of a match where you're not?

I play Nosgoth for fun, I don't want to have to join a social club or create a team to enjoy a random match. Most clans aim for competitive play and require dedicated playtime, I have a job that doesn't facilitate that. I log in, I queue for a quick game or two and that's it. Why should I be forced to make a team, schedule times to play etc. just to enjoy a match?

I'm fine with groups of 2 as it's rarely enough to sway an entire match. 3 normally displaces a match but there's at least a glimmer of a chance if you have a competent team.

I don't appreciate the insult. I just want to play a game I like without having to play against organised teams. I can do so in DOTA2 and many other games, it's not an outrageous demand.

Persiphas
14th Jan 2015, 22:34
1. Introduce MMR
2. Teams are created so that both teams have a similiar average MMR (and tries to create a low variance in the team, which means that a very very high skilled player and a rather new player won't be put into the same lobby)
3. Premades of 4 people should preferrably be put against other 4-man-premades, if this is not possibly try 3+1 after some time, if this does not work try 2+2. People should see who is premade on their team and the enemy team. Before a match there should be a roughly 15 seconds countdown (there are matches atm that start right in the second you join), so that for example a 2+2 team has the possibility to leave. Don't put people who consciously left a lobby by pressing "leave" back into the lobby for 10 minutes.
4. Ask players if they want to join an already running game and show them the total score (1st and 2nd round).
5. Give people the option to surrender, if the score difference of a round hits...let's say 10 or when the total sccore difference hits for example 15.
6. If all these things are implemented, punish leavers in a moderate way. People who have to leave once because of something more important should not hesitate to do so. On the other hand, leaving repeatedly should not be worth it. I'm not into sm so it is a little hard to come up with a punishment. Maybe sth. like a stacking gold and exp penalty which starts really low but becomes higher and higher with every leave. The player loses 1 stack of this debuff for every hour he is playing without leaving.

At least this is how I would fix this problem....

-Moltenmarble

Ysanoire
15th Jan 2015, 00:26
I don't really get the "separate queues for premades" suggestion.

Not every party is composed of 4 pro players. Four 5-10 lvl guys can form a premade, does it mean they can only play against other 4 man premade and either never get a match because there are only so many 4 man premades in the MM pool or play against pros?

Really, if the actual matchmaking can be made to work properly, this shouldn't be an issue.

Is there not a way to have the system keep evaluating matchups while you're waiting in a lobby?

I mean, part of the problem with MM and the small playerbase is that once you hit that search button and get assigned to a lobby (which might be the best match AT THE TIME, but far from what's actually good for you) you're not moved from it. It doesn't matter that a match just ended with a lobby that's perfect for you and there's a spot in it now. If the system could recognise that, and move people with the highest and lowest MMR to different lobbies to even things out, it'd improve things a lot, imo.

PencileyePirate
15th Jan 2015, 00:40
I don't really get the "separate queues for premades" suggestion.

Not every party is composed of 4 pro players. Four 5-10 lvl guys can form a premade, does it mean they can only play against other 4 man premade and either never get a match because there are only so many 4 man premades in the MM pool or play against pros?

It's not a separate queue for premades, but a separate 'competitive' queue. You need to get the CS GO analogy to fully understand.

Both modes would allow solo players and pre-made parties, but the point of a competitive mode is that (A) leavers are penalized with a cool-down that prevents them from re-queuing competitive matches for a set time, and (B) lower ranks would not be able to queue with higher ranks UNLESS in a full party. If everyone queues solo in competitive then MMR should guarantee all players are of very similar rank.

In this scenario most casual and/or solo players who want the ability to leave will just play the regular mode, while most parties will stick to competitive mode to avoid the leavers that occur in public stomps. When players queue competitive with 2-3 player parties then they will get matched with another party or solo player on their team (just like it is now.) Once ranked MMR works better and and voice chat quality is improved this should promote balanced teams.

Ysanoire
15th Jan 2015, 00:54
It's not a separate queue for premades, but a separate 'competitive' queue. You need to get the CS GO analogy to fully understand.

Different people have suggested different things here and in the past, I was addressing the general idea of systematic separation between parties and solo queuers.

While I understand your idea, I think it doesn't actually address the problem we're facing.


In this scenario most casual and/or solo players who want the ability to leave will just play the casual mode, while most parties will stick to competitive mode to avoid the leavers that occur in public stomps.

I don't think it's a fair assumption to make. I would play the casual mode with my friends. So all the problems we have now would appear in the unranked queue, because the issue is, low and high ranked players aren't supposed to play together, but do. Except with separate ranked/unranked queues we'd have even fewer players for the matchmaking pool.

PencileyePirate
15th Jan 2015, 01:35
I don't think it's a fair assumption to make. I would play the casual mode with my friends. So all the problems we have now would appear in the unranked queue, because the issue is, low and high ranked players aren't supposed to play together, but do.

Yes casual mode would still have all the same problems ... but those who want to avoid these problems can play competitive, and those who want to leave when they're getting stomped will just have to deal with unranked casual matches. Many players will probably alternate between queues depending on how seriously they feel like playing.


Except with separate ranked/unranked queues we'd have even fewer players for the matchmaking pool.

IMO this is the only valid argument against separate queues, and it really depends on the player population after open beta hits. If the numbers seen during the open beta weekend can be sustained then I think there will be enough players for separate casual & competitive queues.

Ysanoire
15th Jan 2015, 02:02
but those who want to avoid these problems can play competitive, and those who want to leave when they're getting stomped will just have to deal with unranked casual matches

Well, maybe, but ideally if you're a new-ish solo player you'd prefer to not get stomped and play against people your skill so you don't have to leave over and over. You can leave now, but nobody's happy.

PencileyePirate
15th Jan 2015, 02:36
Well, maybe, but ideally if you're a new-ish solo player you'd prefer to not get stomped and play against people your skill so you don't have to leave over and over. You can leave now, but nobody's happy.

Isn't that what new recruit is for? Tbh I think new recruit should be extended to level 15 or so ... but that's another discussion. Also, a competitive mode should siphon out many of the higher skill players from casual so that stomps shouldn't happen as often.

Ysanoire
15th Jan 2015, 04:46
If it was, there wouldn't be any stomping except when people wander out of new recruit, but there is. People can be bad for a long time, or play irregularly and be bad forever, long after they exceeded the new recruit threshhold. Increase the threshold, and you'll increase the gap inside the NR bracket. I've seen someone here complain that there was a lvl 25 in their NR lobby and how he ruined everything.

Iklozanian
15th Jan 2015, 16:06
I wish you guys know, whats a pleasure four times in a row stuck with noobs against full party of 40lvl. When 2-3 humans can't even shoot properly (I not even talk about something like hit in the air sentinel\tyrant with bola\hex shot, or do per whole round more then 1k damage with scout (scout and other hard-to-play classes like a magnet for noobs, all the time I see noobs with scouts or alchemists and as vampires - sentinels and tyrants)) some people can't understand that team should attack together, stick together, stay in sight, they always too close to each other (and one tyrant easy knock out 3 humans with ground slam) or too far (one guy run across the map to find supply station (he can't see 3 near)) or in the middle of the fight, someone move across the corner and you can't help, because you simply can't see. What to say about tactic and strategy, about choice of location, sometimes they stand in a line and tyrant knock them all with one charge, or they try to hide their bums from 4 reavers in one small room, and died just from poison grenades, when it comes to sentinels, well - noobs CAN'T do nothing against 4 sentinels, it's like massacre, so in the end of the round you end like 1-3 - 30, yeah, rounds like this is SOOOOOOO funny. I have a proposition for all clans - FFS, there always more then 4 in one clan and there is private servers, so play party VS party, it's really help, and there will be much less leavers

SilentVirtue
16th Jan 2015, 03:37
I wish you guys know, whats a pleasure four times in a row stuck with noobs against full party of 40lvl. When 2-3 humans can't even shoot properly (I not even talk about something like hit in the air sentinel\tyrant with bola\hex shot, or do per whole round more then 1k damage with scout (scout and other hard-to-play classes like a magnet for noobs, all the time I see noobs with scouts or alchemists and as vampires - sentinels and tyrants)) some people can't understand that team should attack together, stick together, stay in sight, they always too close to each other (and one tyrant easy knock out 3 humans with ground slam) or too far (one guy run across the map to find supply station (he can't see 3 near)) or in the middle of the fight, someone move across the corner and you can't help, because you simply can't see. What to say about tactic and strategy, about choice of location, sometimes they stand in a line and tyrant knock them all with one charge, or they try to hide their bums from 4 reavers in one small room, and died just from poison grenades, when it comes to sentinels, well - noobs CAN'T do nothing against 4 sentinels, it's like massacre, so in the end of the round you end like 1-3 - 30, yeah, rounds like this is SOOOOOOO funny. I have a proposition for all clans - FFS, there always more then 4 in one clan and there is private servers, so play party VS party, it's really help, and there will be much less leavers

At the point of making this post, there was no party matches. and its not really our fault if the match making puts us with people that don't know what they are doing.

finally, you can party up with similarly skilled players yourself. we find this improves the level of teamwork and fun in a game. there are litterally whole communities dedicated to doing this.

My own community accepts anyone that can show a level of maturity towards others, regardless of skill.

Jallford
16th Jan 2015, 09:03
At the point of making this post, there was no party matches. and its not really our fault if the match making puts us with people that don't know what they are doing.

finally, you can party up with similarly skilled players yourself. we find this improves the level of teamwork and fun in a game. there are litterally whole communities dedicated to doing this.

My own community accepts anyone that can show a level of maturity towards others, regardless of skill.As above this isn't really a solution for everyone. I don't have time to create a team, I don't play at regular times and I often work antisocial hours. I shouldn't have to join a social club just to enjoy a game.

I appreciate no one's deliberately trying to annoy anyone else. But unfair matches aren't fun, that's not going to change anytime soon.