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View Full Version : To block or not to block, that is the question



Castner
25th Jul 2014, 18:03
You know as I have played this I have struggled to wonder why I can melee with my weapons but I can't block for reduced damage on incoming melee for those spam happy vampires? All I can do is dodge and all that does is pretty much allow them to charge up their melee which is a gap closer of sorts. I've been the person its happened to and been the person doing it and I have to ask......why no blocking for either class?

Crap....wrong forum thread.....grrr.....

SiD_Green
25th Jul 2014, 18:10
Why should there be? Better yet, why would you want to waste your time blocking instead of dealing damage?

Razaiim
25th Jul 2014, 18:11
Vampires are meant to be stronger up close. Imagine how stupid strong humans would be if they could block even some damage from vampire attacks. It would be suicide to use anything but skills, and it already is in some cases.

Castner
25th Jul 2014, 18:12
Why should there be? Better yet, why would you want to waste your time blocking instead of dealing damage?

Most games where you have the ability to block a melee move if timed correctly allow for a more dynamic combat and counterattack.


Vampires are meant to be stronger up close. Imagine how stupid strong humans would be if they could block even some damage from vampire attacks. It would be suicide to use anything but skills.

I would normally agree, however there currently is very little you can do as a human once you get a spam happy vamp in your face as like I said, dodging just allows them to charge up their melee and gap close to hit you harder than if you stood still and took your **** slapping like a man.

SiD_Green
25th Jul 2014, 18:14
But you can hurt a vampire from across the map, meanwhile his melee only works at melee range. If that could be negated or reduced, I don't think that would make it more "dynamic", I think it would just make the humans even stronger.

Castner
25th Jul 2014, 18:19
But you can hurt a vampire from across the map, meanwhile his melee only works at melee range. If that could be negated or reduced, I don't think that would make it more "dynamic", I think it would just make the humans even stronger.

That is why i said blocking for both classes. Running and gunning with no tactics makes for a boring game overall as dynamic combat equates to a higher skill required to do well where running and gunning (or slashing) not so much.

SiD_Green
25th Jul 2014, 18:22
Firstly, what could the vampires even block? The measly 100 damage from a human melee?

More importantly though, you're discussing tactics as if this is not a heavily team based game. I think it's likely you haven't played enough yet to learn how to properly deal with vampires. "Melee spam" is usually very easy to defeat, if you work together with your team & use your abilities wisely.

Castner
25th Jul 2014, 18:26
Firstly, what could the vampires even block? The measly 100 damage from a human melee?

More importantly though, you're discussing tactics as if this is not a heavily team based game. I think it's likely you haven't played enough yet to learn how to properly deal with vampires. "Melee spam" is usually very easy to defeat, if you work together with your team & use your abilities wisely.

THink about it what vamps can block to try and lessen the damage some to be more resilient..I'm sure it will come to you.

I'm not saying vamps are the only issue. The inability to block even ranged projectiles to some degree or blasts when you have that oh **** moment would allow for a greater dynamic gameplay as it requires greater skill to time correctly.

SiD_Green
25th Jul 2014, 18:28
I don't understand what you mean, how could blocking a projectile reduce damage, unless they pull out a shield or something?

Anyway, we obviously just differ in opinion about whether adding this would enhance anything. I don't think it would add anything beneficial to the game, overall.

MasterZtark
25th Jul 2014, 18:28
Hmmm, blocking is an interesting idea. I'm not sure how it could be implemented for every class though. It would be neat if one class (vampire and/or human) had an ability that put a shield out in front of them for like 5 seconds, followed by a long 20s-25s cooldown.

Castner
25th Jul 2014, 18:33
I don't understand what you mean, how could blocking a projectile reduce damage, unless they pull out a shield or something?

Anyway, we obviously just differ in opinion about whether adding this would enhance anything. I don't think it would add anything beneficial to the game, overall.

Currently we have a proactive approach (ie spamming) rather than reacting to what is going on around you. Proactive is more a mad rush guerrilla tactic type of playstyle. Reactive is a more dynamic gameplay as it requires a higher skill available to utilize the available skills we have set to plan on the fly rather than what we have. Yes we have some reactive to a point but overall it is very limited.


Hmmm, blocking is an interesting idea. I'm not sure how it could be implemented for every class though. It would be neat if one class (vampire and/or human) had an ability that put a shield out in front of them for like 5 seconds, followed by a long 20s-25s cooldown.

We kind of have that with the prophet. My view is that blocking is something that should be used sparingly with a chance to break their guard. I don't want it to become melee spam to then blocking spam as there should be a drawback to using it whether a charged attack will stagger or stun a blocking opponent if they kept block up for a period of time. I think it should be used right before an attack lands and can stagger an opponent allowing for a counter attack and not be available for a few seconds. It would allow for players who are good at timing skills and reacting to their environment to do well rather than the new guy who just spams things. God i hope that made sense.

SiD_Green
25th Jul 2014, 19:45
Honestly though, if you're losing to melee spam, you're not playing at your full potential. It's so easy to kill a vampire that just blindly attacks; dodges can be very effective if timed and spaced correctly

Castner
25th Jul 2014, 19:54
Honestly though, if you're losing to melee spam, you're not playing at your full potential. It's so easy to kill a vampire that just blindly attacks; dodges can be very effective if timed and spaced correctly

If the vampire knows what they are doing the dodging human just gave the vampire enough time to charge up a melee attack and gap close to chase after the human specially a reaver. I've done it and had it done to me.

SiD_Green
25th Jul 2014, 20:35
Which only means the dodge was timed incorrectly though, they can't know when to charge and when to attack until they see you dodge. You gotta catch them in the animation.

Castner
25th Jul 2014, 20:57
Even a half charged melee is enough of a gap closer for a dodged human especially reaver


Edit: why did I get into an argument over this? Wasn't the point I was trying to make in my post. Was trying to find ways to add a differnt way for players to interact and for skill to become a larger factor in the overall scheme of things (well more than it is now as it is a heavy skill game and very team based).

DeeArc
25th Jul 2014, 21:17
"Spam happy vamp"? Are you doing some kind of refined melee the rest of us don't know about? It's interesting how spam is always a complaint against Vampires, when "the repeated use of an item or action" is easily applicable to Humans, too. I suppose holding M1 is more skillful than tapping it...? If the vampire is actually spamming M1, it's to your benefit, because there's no lock-on in this game and they'll just whiff in a straight line if they don't anticipate your movement. Blocking isn't a solution, either; blocking multiple attackers would be overpowered, yet anything less in a team game would be largely useless. You block a Reaver, a Deceiver back stabs you, and you're back to square one. It also takes the emphasis away from Humans keeping Vampires away, which is the focus of Human defense.

The cheapest thing Vampires can do is to keep a single target in stun lock with their abilities until said target's dead, but we don't see that as often as in previous patches.

TheXeiom
25th Jul 2014, 21:47
Vamps charging attacks in view is very very risky except in some specific scenarios.

You don't need blocking in this game because the tools exist elsewhere in abilities. If you have an inherent ability to block attacks then there is very little trade off in abilities, there is already little reason to not take the highest damage abilities but if you already mitigate damage then there would be even less reason to not just take the highest damage stuff.

Currently many abilities such as Hunters whip or Scouts knives will cause an interrupt on vampire animations so a vamp with a fully charged melee losses all that time if he gets hit with an interrupt or a more hard CC.

In theory you should not win a 1v1 in melee as a human because otherwise in higher levels of play humans will always win. (because in 4v4 range becomes a massive force multiplier)

Castner
25th Jul 2014, 21:51
"Spam happy vamp"? Are you doing some kind of refined melee the rest of us don't know about? It's interesting how spam is always a complaint against Vampires, when "the repeated use of an item or action" is easily applicable to Humans, too. I suppose holding M1 is more skillful than tapping it...? If the vampire is actually spamming M1, it's to your benefit, because there's no lock-on in this game and they'll just whiff in a straight line if they don't anticipate your movement. Blocking isn't a solution, either; blocking multiple attackers would be overpowered, yet anything less in a team game would be largely useless. You block a Reaver, a Deceiver back stabs you, and you're back to square one. It also takes the emphasis away from Humans keeping Vampires away, which is the focus of Human defense.

The cheapest thing Vampires can do is to keep a single target in stun lock with their abilities until said target's dead, but we don't see that as often as in previous patches.

My idea of blocking would be only frontal attacks could be blocked and like i said in an earlier post you block too much and you still take at most half damage and risk having your guard broken to where you're stunned. Blocking would/should only be a reactionary thing rather than a proactive thing and should have drawbacks to being used as such. Blocking for both races should be a reactionary thing. I honestly would rather block than dodge as blocking can open up more interaction between players. Dodging is either used as a re-position or to avoid an attack or to try and run away. Dodging as vampires is to get out of an aoe or try to avoid ranged fire which doesn't always (read rarely) work.

Sorrowgate
25th Jul 2014, 22:10
Vampires are pretty strong. Barring magic wards which would need a cooldown and be magic that some classes won't be able to conjure, I can't see a human holding up a block and not feeling a lot of pain from trying to match a vampire's strength. Wearing leather armour doesn't help either.

Dodging has it's uses on both teams. It's not a good idea to try and dodge to open up space, but it's great for juking melee swings. Dodge past the vamp as he melee swings, he rushes past you, space is created and though you didn't get in a shot you've bought time for your team to do so and you force the vampire to reorientate themselves while you start firing away again. You could even start running unless it's a Reaver (especially if you use the sprinting perk).

For vampires, you can flow melee swings into dodges very easily to make aiming as a human a nightmare or to do your best to juke an important skill like the bola. When trying to avoid fire I use it to duck around corners quickly or just juke left and right to minimise damage taken while running.

RazielWarmonic
26th Jul 2014, 08:20
Game is already human favored, adding a block mechanic to human would continue to tip the scale.

Overall would make the game clunky in my opinion, especially with everything being hitscan.

Castner
27th Jul 2014, 00:30
Game is already human favored, adding a block mechanic to human would continue to tip the scale.

Overall would make the game clunky in my opinion, especially with everything being hitscan.

Yes the game is heavily leaned toward human as a good human team is a pain to deal with. Not sure if that is due to the ability to pick multiples of the same class (would love to see that only one class can be chosen at a time but until more classes for each race is available that prob won't if ever happen). I don't know, would be interesting to get some feedback form the devs to see of it is something they have tried internally as a guard followed by a riposte for either class would be interesting to see due to the skill required.

Also.....how the heck are any of the human weapons hit scan? They have travel time. Hit scan systems check for obstructions and line of sight if everything checks out it is considered a hit. Hit scan is usually used to limit calculations for the system and every instance of hit scan I've encountered they never have a Physcial projectile. We know that is not the case. Or did they change hit scan mechanics when I wasn't looking.

Edit: thanks forum cleaner upper dude...

Also holy crap stupid auto correct.

Sorrowgate
27th Jul 2014, 13:31
Also.....how the heck are any of the human weapons hit scan? They have travel time. Hit scan systems check for obstructions and line of sight if everything checks out it is considered a hit. Hit scan is usually used to limit calculations for the system and every instance of hit scan I've encountered they never have a Physcial projectile. We know that is not the case. Or did they change hit scan mechanics when I wasn't looking.

Hunters, Prophets and Scouts have hitscan weapons, most explosives are projectile based (including the Hand Cannon), most cc skills are projectile based (Banish Shot was Hitscan for a while but somewhere along the line they made it a projectile and changed it to Hex Shot), Life Leech is hitscan, Disabling Curse is probably hitscan.

Bettik
28th Jul 2014, 03:29
I'm not trying to attack anyone's ability to play the game, but it seems to me that adding a blocking ability for hunters would only serve to give the rest of the team a little more time to save you. This is unnecessary in the late game when people have generally developed good enough team-play instincts not to need that extra time to save their teammates. A few months after release, the vast majority of players will have outgrown the usefulness of blocking -- it would be a wasted feature.

Castner
28th Jul 2014, 07:24
Hunters, Prophets and Scouts have hitscan weapons, most explosives are projectile based (including the Hand Cannon), most cc skills are projectile based (Banish Shot was Hitscan for a while but somewhere along the line they made it a projectile and changed it to Hex Shot), Life Leech is hitscan, Disabling Curse is probably hitscan.

Not so sure about scouts and hunters being hitscan....I can swear i can see their projectile (any word from the devs on that one?) anywho off topic for that one


I'm not trying to attack anyone's ability to play the game, but it seems to me that adding a blocking ability for hunters would only serve to give the rest of the team a little more time to save you. This is unnecessary in the late game when people have generally developed good enough team-play instincts not to need that extra time to save their teammates. A few months after release, the vast majority of players will have outgrown the usefulness of blocking -- it would be a wasted feature.

I mean blocking ability for both races...not just humans. I would never want where people can just sit there with block up (unless the longer you hold up your block the more chance of having it broken and being stunned with a threshhold of it autostunning you on first enemy hit for keeping it up). It should be more of an "OH ****" button.

RazielWarmonic
28th Jul 2014, 08:47
Also.....how the heck are any of the human weapons hit scan?

Not so sure about scouts and hunters being hitscan....I can swear i can see their projectile (any word from the devs on that one?) anywho off topic for that one

They are hitscan. Can confirm. There is no lead time on any of these weapons. You aim, shoot the target, and hit it. There is a visual but that doesn't really mean anything.

Castner
28th Jul 2014, 08:59
They are hitscan. Can confirm. There is no lead time on any of these weapons. You aim, shoot the target, and hit it. There is a visual but that doesn't really mean anything.

Not calling you a liar so please don't take it that way, but if a weapon has a visual representation of a projectile wouldn't that make it non hitscan as I have see a dodging vamp avoid the shot and have done so myself as it has gone right by my head with the visual so unless hitscan mechanics have changed that would make them nonhitscan just really fast travel time. Otherwise dodging in air as a sent would be pointless as you will be getting shot regardless (just my 2cents).

I really need to have a mod change the title of this thread as the thread title is a little misleading. Would prefer it say "To block or not to block, that is the question".

Sanguise23
28th Jul 2014, 12:46
They are hit scan, stated by devs.

cmstache
28th Jul 2014, 14:36
The bullet has magnetism to visualize what's happening in game for your characters point of view. As a player, not the character, we know it's hit scan. The bullet is just the in-game representation. Essentially, because of bullet magnetism the game leads it for you.

Sorrowgate
28th Jul 2014, 15:19
Not calling you a liar so please don't take it that way, but if a weapon has a visual representation of a projectile wouldn't that make it non hitscan as I have see a dodging vamp avoid the shot and have done so myself as it has gone right by my head with the visual so unless hitscan mechanics have changed that would make them nonhitscan just really fast travel time. Otherwise dodging in air as a sent would be pointless as you will be getting shot regardless (just my 2cents).

They are hitscan, but I have been having some aim problems recently, "full cursor is on the vampire but the shot slightly grazes their left" type aim problems. Probably something to do with ping, I'm usually playing around 50, but I always have done anyway. I do my best not to blame the computer, but it's making me pay a lot of attention to the position of the cursor and when I have a charged shot miss a target when they aren't trying to avoid it and the cursor was on their torso it gets a bit annoying :P.

Dodging still has a use, even as a Sentinel and against hitscan weapons. While you're not dodging the projectiles you are throwing off the opponent's aim so you still save yourself some damage, and there are still plenty of projectile based attacks in game.

Castner
28th Jul 2014, 15:51
The bullet has magnetism to visualize what's happening in game for your characters point of view. As a player, not the character, we know it's hit scan. The bullet is just the in-game representation. Essentially, because of bullet magnetism the game leads it for you.

Interesting. Hitscan does cut down on calculations. I do almost pee my pants when I'm getting shot at and dodge and see things zooming by my head.


They are hitscan, but I have been having some aim problems recently, "full cursor is on the vampire but the shot slightly grazes their left" type aim problems. Probably something to do with ping, I'm usually playing around 50, but I always have done anyway. I do my best not to blame the computer, but it's making me pay a lot of attention to the position of the cursor and when I have a charged shot miss a target when they aren't trying to avoid it and the cursor was on their torso it gets a bit annoying :P.

Dodging still has a use, even as a Sentinel and against hitscan weapons. While you're not dodging the projectiles you are throwing off the opponent's aim so you still save yourself some damage, and there are still plenty of projectile based attacks in game.

Possibly due to the influx of players is causing stress on the servers? I have been noticing some odd behavior with the client but have no clue what caused them so have no idea of how to replicate them as I did not do anything different.

The dodging in air by the sentinel is jerky and not really much of a dodge. Could be done with a little more...finesse. Anywho back on topic (btw thank you to the mod who change the title, much more inline with what i was trying to say).