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gzvirax
26th Dec 2014, 23:02
I love this game, and appreciate what you do. That's also why I tend to criticize.

https://i.imgur.com/UmuwC1b.png

I'll elaborate here since the review might be a bit vague:


As a level 40 with over 500 hours of gameplay I still get matched with/against level 10 novices in regular TDM. This should never happen for any reason. It does not produce fun matches for any of the players involved.


Class "balancing" is often too drastic. I can think of several skills that once dictated the meta but are now rarely seen (and, in my opinion, not enjoyable to use.) In some of these cases the changes were sudden, not incremental.


Long-lasting gameplay bugs that are irritating enough to produce rage-quits. The fact that SS and Disguise are still broken actively deters me from playing the game.
Finally: I'm offended that you're creating events to sell new banners while the above issues still persist. I realize art & development are functionally separate teams but refuse to believe that no software development time is involved in deploying these non-essential features. This makes me feel that any money I've spent on the game is being squandered.

Thank you for reading,
-rzl

FireWorks_
26th Dec 2014, 23:55
/signed

Khalith
27th Dec 2014, 01:17
Finally: I'm offended that you're creating events to sell new banners while the above issues still persist. I realize art & development are functionally separate teams but refuse to believe that no software development time is involved in deploying these non-essential features. This makes me feel that any money I've spent on the game is being squandered.

You should believe that. The artists and animators are the ones that are putting in the new skins and visual items. They really have nothing to do with the people doing the matchmaking and them adding stuff like that has nothing to do with the people in charge of programming the matchmaking. Unless you expect the animators to start working on systems (not gonna happen) you're mistaken in this. Adding new animations doesn't hinder development of systems for the things such as matchmaking.

I can also understand your dislike of some of the "sweeping" nerfs and buffs that we're getting. But I feel obligated to remind you we're in closed beta, now is the time for all of those sweeping nerfs and adjustments to be made before the game hits open beta and (eventually) release. Not to mention there are many times where those sweeping nerfs were absolutely necessary, i.e. sweeping kick 1.0 and prophet 1.0.

What about disguise and SS are broken? I haven't noticed any bugs or maybe I'm missing something?

I agree that the matchmaking is a little wonky. But once the MMR system is really hammered out and people play more, the problem will (hopefully) sort itself out.

SiD_Green
27th Dec 2014, 03:26
As a level 40 with over 500 hours of gameplay I still get matched with/against level 10 novices in regular TDM. This should never happen for any reason. It does not produce fun matches for any of the players involved.


This may have to happen though, depending on current online population/region restrictions. Also the new system doesn't use player level.



Finally: I'm offended that you're creating events to sell new banners while the above issues still persist. I realize art & development are functionally separate teams but refuse to believe that no software development time is involved in deploying these non-essential features. This makes me feel that any money I've spent on the game is being squandered.

That seems like a strange attitude to take; how can it be argued with if you refuse to believe the reasonable and (probably) true explanation?

Khalith
27th Dec 2014, 05:00
Even if I accept that it won't fix the bugs. Also ... just an example, but I don't think the texture artists were responsible for diagnosing/resolving the issue when the winter banners didn't show up in store.

They are. When there are issues on animations or artwork it usually falls to Eric (the art lead) to take care of that stuff.


This is why I'm giving my feedback now.

I understand that you don't like the sweeping changes. But again, this is the time to do it. I'd rather see the sweeping changes done NOW rather than later.


True, but I was not referring to those changes.

Right. But those are sweeping changes that needed to happen. The recent nerfs to reaver and human while pretty sweeping really did need to happen.



SS (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=149252) and Disguise (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=149288) (plus other (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=149420) various bugs (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=149581).)

Fair enough, those I didn't know about but bug fixes can be a troubling thing. First they need to be able to reproduce the bug and then find a build that doesn't break a whole bunch of other stuff.

I know I sound like I'm white knighting Psyonix here, I definitely believe they can do wrong and I've voiced my concerns about them in the past. But I actually happen to believe the recent changes needed to happen, the human damage shifting especially.

gzvirax
27th Dec 2014, 05:00
edit: Sorry for messing up post order. I was combining posts and hadn't seen Khalith's replies.


You should believe that. The artists and animators are the ones that are putting in the new skins and visual items. They really have nothing to do with the people doing the matchmaking and them adding stuff like that has nothing to do with the people in charge of programming the matchmaking. Unless you expect the animators to start working on systems (not gonna happen) you're mistaken in this. Adding new animations doesn't hinder development of systems for the things such as matchmaking.

Even if I accept that it won't fix the bugs. Also ... just an example, but I don't think the texture artists were responsible for diagnosing/resolving the issue when the winter banners didn't show up in store.


But I feel obligated to remind you we're in closed beta, now is the time for all of those sweeping nerfs and adjustments to be made before the game hits open beta and (eventually) release.

This is why I'm giving my feedback now.


Not to mention there are many times where those sweeping nerfs were absolutely necessary, i.e. sweeping kick 1.0 and prophet 1.0.

True, but I was not referring to those changes.


What about disguise and SS are broken? I haven't noticed any bugs or maybe I'm missing something?

SS (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=149252) and Disguise (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=149288) (plus other (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=149420) various bugs (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=149581).)


This may have to happen though, depending on current online population/region restrictions. Also the new system doesn't use player level.

Not using player level to balance teams is fine. However Corey has mentioned that the MMR includes a ranking value and a certainty value that increases as the ranking becomes more accurate. I would hope/expect that matchmaking separate low levels from high levels in the queue, especially when certainty is low.

If the population is too low to put 8 players of similar experience level together ... then we're already screwed.


That seems like a strange attitude to take; how can it be argued with if you refuse to believe the reasonable and (probably) true explanation?

Let's say I do accept the idea that no software development goes into deploying new aesthetic-only features. If the developers' hands aren't tied somewhere else then why are these bugs remaining in-game so long?


But those are sweeping changes that needed to happen. The recent nerfs to reaver and human while pretty sweeping really did need to happen.

I'd argue that some of the earlier changes to Reaver definitely did not need to happen (e.g. Evasion duration.)

Khalith
27th Dec 2014, 05:03
Not using player level to balance teams is fine. However Corey has mentioned that the MMR includes a ranking value and a certainty value that increases as the ranking becomes more accurate. I would hope/expect that matchmaking separate low levels from high levels in the queue, especially when certainty is low.

That is the one problem with the MMR system. Everyone starts at the same value without any regards to level, as a result it will be pretty skewed until people get more games under their belt. It's not a very elegant solution but it will have to do for now.

Rago600
27th Dec 2014, 06:43
That said, please understand that the Matchmaking system takes a Time for you to play to mix you up with those People how play similar to you.
Also Players need to be alivalible, sometimes i find oly on Lobby that needs 3 Minutes to start, but it´s cool im having fun ^^

FireWorks_
27th Dec 2014, 09:38
That is the one problem with the MMR system. Everyone starts at the same value without any regards to level, as a result it will be pretty skewed until people get more games under their belt. It's not a very elegant solution but it will have to do for now.

NO!! This is not god given and unchangeable until "it fixes itself"!

It is one parameter to change and it can be changed in ONE line of code in less than a minute! It is a matter of wanting to.

The starting MMR for a new player is drastically too high. We raised this concern in the MMR discussion before they introduced it, I raised it already after a few weeks of MMR where it is supposed to have time to sort itself out and Ill do this again here now.

New players are drastically overrated (in an MMR sense and underrated in their importance for the game). It takes enough matches to bring them to their skill MMR for enough gamers to already quit the game again and spew their "**** this game with its MM" rating on gaming sites. (and pls dont blame them now for lacking the enthusiasm of getting constantly into bad matches)



It was said that the MMR needs time to learn. This is only half the truth. There is zero emphasis on new players in it, which is a drastic design flaw.

Persiphas
27th Dec 2014, 13:23
I don't think the problem is new skins and banners (different people work on graphics and bugfixes)... the problem is that new content is created while the "old" stuff does not work. Remember that Deceivers signature move was supposed to be Backstab? It did not work since the release of this character and it still does not work now. There are easy ways to make Echolocation an OK skill without much effort. It should not be a problem to fix Deceivers health bar. I could go on all day. Of course I don't want to bash Nosgoth or Psyonix (imho Nosgoth is the best game I played for a long time) I just don't want it to fail. One day everybody will have an opinion about Nosgoth. And if this public opinion is, "that the gameplay is nice but everything else sucks" it is too late (and yes it is sad, but most players have this firm opinion already after having a look at the closed beta and will never revisit the game). And the MMR problem is something that does not even need a huge change, it would be nearly no work to not spoil newbies from the game.

snejjjj
27th Dec 2014, 13:27
new skins and banners = money

KiLLaZ87
27th Dec 2014, 23:07
Agree with gzvirax

Cristari
2nd Jan 2015, 12:47
Although this is technically a game that anyone can purchase and play being early access and it would seem as though adding event's and skins would be a good thing I would have to agree with the OP.

This game is supposed to be free to play, however we are currently having to purchase this game (even though it's cheap as chips) or manage to get a Beta invite from someone. I understand that under a F2P model that the cash store for non-game effecting items is fine however since there are so many bugs and problems being seemingly ignored in favour of these non-game effecting items it does make it look as though the cash shop is far more important than the game.

This game should be in Open Beta (effectively released if it is a F2P game) by now and we should be seeing a lot more people play it. I however do not believe that the amount that people that will be attracted to Nosgoth due to the amount that they can save by not purchasing early access atm is going to be negligible. While the game seems to be coming on leaps and bounds due to the events the gameplay is still lagging behind and doesn't seem to be improving in any way.

I want Nosgoth to be successful but atm I do not see this happening.

gzvirax
5th Jan 2015, 16:08
I don't think the problem is new skins and banners (different people work on graphics and bugfixes)... the problem is that new content is created while the "old" stuff does not work. Remember that Deceivers signature move was supposed to be Backstab? It did not work since the release of this character and it still does not work now. There are easy ways to make Echolocation an OK skill without much effort. It should not be a problem to fix Deceivers health bar. I could go on all day. Of course I don't want to bash Nosgoth or Psyonix (imho Nosgoth is the best game I played for a long time) I just don't want it to fail.


While the game seems to be coming on leaps and bounds due to the events the gameplay is still lagging behind and doesn't seem to be improving in any way. I want Nosgoth to be successful but atm I do not see this happening.

These illustrate my perspective exactly. In fact I could replace "purchasable content" with just "content" in my review, because whether the new content generates revenue isn't important me. It's just frustrating that so much time & effort is being invested into new content [purchasable or not] while significant bugs still plague the current build. Yes I want the new classes ... but I'd also like to enjoy the game until they're released.

Unfortunately there's been little-to-no blogs / announcements / community interaction lately. We have no idea if these bugs are already fixed in an upcoming build, still being worked on, or waiting on the back-burner. This gives the impression that various bugs are just being ignored.

Vampmaster
5th Jan 2015, 16:20
The levels, skins and effects, will probably just be data driven. The designers would likely have tools that let them set up new content by filling in a form with the new file names rather than having to get a programmer to hardcode it every time. They can literally do it themselves and let the programmers get on with other stuff. From a programmer's perspective it only makes sense to make sure designers have those tools from the start of a game's development so they don't have to to come back to you every five minutes.

Progress updates are always good though.

gzvirax
5th Jan 2015, 16:54
The levels, skins and effects, will probably just be data driven. The designers would likely have tools that let them set up new content by filling in a form with the new file names rather than having to get a programmer to hardcode it every time. They can literally do it themselves and let the programmers get on with other stuff.

This is why I was quick to mention that new classes and their skills [which certainly involve a decent amount of programming] are just as much the target of my frustration as levels/skins/FX. I'm no game dev, but I'm a software developer who believes in addressing the existing bugs before adding new features.

Even if I'm completely wrong about why it's taking so long, where are the bug-fixes?

We haven't gotten any recently, so I'll continue to assume they're busy elsewhere or just piling up the bug-fixes into one enormous patch for open beta. If they're busy elsewhere then I would ask project management to re-allocate their time, but if the fixes are just sitting around .... a hot-fix or two would be nice.

Vampmaster
5th Jan 2015, 17:19
I don't claim to know what the holdup is, just that it's unlikely to be the artistic stuff. I do know that Psyonix have another game announced that they're working on besides Nosgoth, so I think it could be that, plus a lot of people would have been off for the holidays. There will probably be an update today, since they need to switch off the winter items today.

FireWorks_
5th Jan 2015, 18:39
There will probably be an update today, since they need to switch off the winter items today.
Not likely. The code just disables them to be available at a specified time. Same like the devils night event that got shafted "early" and led me to rage since they screwed up the introduction of the event.
Glad they at least learned from that and announced the exact time for the winter event to end. 24h00 PST.

Psyonix_Corey
6th Jan 2015, 22:41
I don't claim to know what the holdup is, just that it's unlikely to be the artistic stuff. I do know that Psyonix have another game announced that they're working on besides Nosgoth, so I think it could be that, plus a lot of people would have been off for the holidays. There will probably be an update today, since they need to switch off the winter items today.

Nosgoth team is completely independent from any other projects in the studio.

We are back from holiday break and the Disguise bug, Shadow Step bug, and matchmaking issues are the top priorities this week.

Regarding bug fixing, we had a massive bug fix push during Nov-Dec to get to an Open Beta candidate build. Unfortunately what often occurs when you fix a lot of bugs is you sometimes create new ones. Both the SS and Disguise issue appear to be unintended consequences of other fixes. I'm sorry that the way the schedule worked out, you guys got stuck with some more frustrating issues over the holiday break period.

Vampmaster
6th Jan 2015, 23:11
Nosgoth team is completely independent from any other projects in the studio.

We are back from holiday break and the Disguise bug, Shadow Step bug, and matchmaking issues are the top priorities this week.

Regarding bug fixing, we had a massive bug fix push during Nov-Dec to get to an Open Beta candidate build. Unfortunately what often occurs when you fix a lot of bugs is you sometimes create new ones. Both the SS and Disguise issue appear to be unintended consequences of other fixes. I'm sorry that the way the schedule worked out, you guys got stuck with some more frustrating issues over the holiday break period.

No, problem. I wasn't trying to cause trouble, just trying to give a more likely reason than the art stuff.

Psyonix_Corey
7th Jan 2015, 22:42
Fixes for Disguise issue, Shadow Step issue, weapon lockup, and Illusion behavior changes (not running when humans aren't in LoS) have been submitted to QA.

gzvirax
7th Jan 2015, 23:34
Fixes for Disguise issue, Shadow Step issue, weapon lockup, and Illusion behavior changes (not running when humans aren't in LoS) have been submitted to QA.

Very glad to hear, and thanks for the update. I'm excited to start playing again once these bugs are fixed. I do feel somewhat guilty after raising a fuss and hearing the cause was actually Holiday vacation(s), but it felt like we'd been dealing with many of these issues since before December. Also ... I hope to remove/rewrite that review once we see improved MM or tweaks to improve vampires in high level play.