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mr0661
20th Dec 2014, 00:09
I started Nosgoth maybe a week ago. This means I haven't played long enough to make comments about game play. I enjoy playing game and I like way game has been balanced.

I have however confession to make. Even though I commonly fight the urge, I have quitted a game. I know, I'm a monster.

My gut feeling is however, that I am not only one who has done this and I feel that people quitting is problematic. I actually have felt wish to quit game in even cases when I'm in a winning team (though the in lost games urge is much stronger). It is very boring to play the game, when last round ended with result of 30-20 and last rounds winner team hits 21 points. I have to say, I feel that should be the end of the the game and I feel little baffled that it is not. I don't see what can be gained after game has been lost.

So what drives are left after game has been lost? Lose little less is hardly a goal. Gain exp/kills/gold? Those are not team objectives, they are personal objectives, and they work against normal goals in game.

I don't dislike desperate situations. I have went to second game with 30-9 result feeling, that if our opponents managed to do that, maybe we could also. But when opponent scores their 10th kill, all is lost. Desperate situation changed to lost match, but still everybody must continue.

So my suggestion is this: have second match end when match becomes unwinnable for one side.

Khalith
20th Dec 2014, 02:44
The whole idea of a surrender option once the match becomes unwinnable has been brought up before. Unwinnable meaning the situation you described above where the other team hits a score where you can't possibly win. I'm personally for it, even if it means less time playing it means a chance at getting in to a different better game faster.

I lose interest in any match as soon as either team gains an advantage of 10+ or more. Close matches are much more interesting to me.

GenFeelGood
20th Dec 2014, 03:51
I prefer to stick it out, most times it ends in defeat; but I can't tell you how many times me & my team pulled it around and won the whole thing. My point is that if you don't want to continue then just quit, I don't think less of those who do; and I don't like the idea of others telling me we lost when the match isn't over.

absinthesize
20th Dec 2014, 05:22
it is a flaw in the design, if the first time the enemy goes 30 kills to your teams 9, why even bother to finish the match?

there are two solutions, attempt to incentivize positively or negatively players to stick it out.

negative=things like unable to connect to another game for however long

positive=gold boost, % boost at loot, etc.

right now you get gold by doing things in game...you could even that out...but then you promote leechers and have a entirely new dilemna.

as much as i hate to say it a surrender wouldnt even work that well, because you will have stubborn people unwilling to vote to end the match.

the negative incentive to stay is probably the best bet.

mr0661
20th Dec 2014, 09:16
The whole idea of a surrender option once the match becomes unwinnable has been brought up before. Unwinnable meaning the situation you described above where the other team hits a score where you can't possibly win. I'm personally for it, even if it means less time playing it means a chance at getting in to a different better game faster.

I lose interest in any match as soon as either team gains an advantage of 10+ or more. Close matches are much more interesting to me.

Surrender button has problems. I prefer not to discuss them here, as that was not my suggestion.


I prefer to stick it out, most times it ends in defeat; but I can't tell you how many times me & my team pulled it around and won the whole thing. My point is that if you don't want to continue then just quit, I don't think less of those who do; and I don't like the idea of others telling me we lost when the match isn't over.

You have won from situation where opponent margin in last round was big(30-20) and opponent has over your kill amount from last round(21)? Of course not. Because even if you keep hammering your opponent, you can't get better result than 30-21, which is still lost game. When opponent got that 21st kill game was over, gg and so on.


it is a flaw in the design, if the first time the enemy goes 30 kills to your teams 9, why even bother to finish the match?

there are two solutions, attempt to incentivize positively or negatively players to stick it out.

negative=things like unable to connect to another game for however long

positive=gold boost, % boost at loot, etc.

right now you get gold by doing things in game...you could even that out...but then you promote leechers and have a entirely new dilemna.

as much as i hate to say it a surrender wouldnt even work that well, because you will have stubborn people unwilling to vote to end the match.

the negative incentive to stay is probably the best bet.
Why bother continue if you lost first round 30-9. Because next round would end when winning team reaches to 10 kills. Until that point, there is theoretically small change to win. After that, you cannot win even if whole opposing team goes afk.

None of your solutions give reason to continue fighting. Team has been victorious/defeated so there is no need for teamwork.

Also as you said surrender has problems. This is true, that is reason why I didn't suggest it.

What I'm suggesting is same as in any other game. If we played football(soccer), and game would end when total score is 7(for example, 4-3), game stops when either team reaches to 4 scores(finals of many sports are played in this manner).

FireWorks_
20th Dec 2014, 11:11
EDIT: Seems the drop rates were a bug and they fixed it. Sadly.



The leaving problem seems to be tackled in the current patch...

I had a great series of matches yesterday since they increased the drop rates drastically and it seems that you even get default drops for joining late into a lost match. If you stick it out, you get items. The cool mystery ones. (But I also consider 60-40 a relatively good match. 30-4 after the first round is bad and yesterday I didnt mind join into that one: By the time I got in, the real bad player left and it was an enjoyable match even without a chance to win)

When people noticed it, there was suddenly a different target than winning the game alone. For me personally it worked pretty well, I took the bait for most matches. Still gotta admit that I feel frustrated when getting a totally drag on the team, that cant seem to understand fundamental basics like clicking to attack. But thats a refinement for the next MM iteration.

mr0661
20th Dec 2014, 22:21
The leaving problem seems to be tackled in the current patch...

I had a great series of matches yesterday since they increased the drop rates drastically and it seems that you even get default drops for joining late into a lost match. If you stick it out, you get items. The cool mystery ones. (But I also consider 60-40 a relatively good match. 30-4 after the first round is bad and yesterday I didnt mind join into that one: By the time I got in, the real bad player left and it was an enjoyable match even without a chance to win)

When people noticed it, there was suddenly a different target than winning the game alone. For me personally it worked pretty well, I took the bait for most matches. Still gotta admit that I feel frustrated when getting a totally drag on the team, that cant seem to understand fundamental basics like clicking to attack. But thats a refinement for the next MM iteration.

Yes, there is different target than winning. Sticking out till match ends. I don't see how that is fun for either team, if I'm just hanging out till end. Sure, I can start training my secondary characters, but I'm not playing to win. Or if the goal is to be better than your teammates, then I'm starting to wait till they are killed before opening fire, or execute in full health.

I'm not against this odd mode, where play continues after game has ended, for example in beginner mode (bellow level 10) could be like this. But I think there should be competitive mode that is made for playing to win. I feel that there is some sort of punishment happening after (competitive) game has ended.

If this would be e-sport, does anyone think, that game would continue after match was decided. Not to say everything should be that way, but to give a perspective.

Calderweiss
21st Dec 2014, 00:41
I started Nosgoth maybe a week ago. This means I haven't played long enough to make comments about game play. I enjoy playing game and I like way game has been balanced.

I have however confession to make. Even though I commonly fight the urge, I have quitted a game. I know, I'm a monster.

My gut feeling is however, that I am not only one who has done this and I feel that people quitting is problematic. I actually have felt wish to quit game in even cases when I'm in a winning team (though the in lost games urge is much stronger). It is very boring to play the game, when last round ended with result of 30-20 and last rounds winner team hits 21 points. I have to say, I feel that should be the end of the the game and I feel little baffled that it is not. I don't see what can be gained after game has been lost.

So what drives are left after game has been lost? Lose little less is hardly a goal. Gain exp/kills/gold? Those are not team objectives, they are personal objectives, and they work against normal goals in game.

I don't dislike desperate situations. I have went to second game with 30-9 result feeling, that if our opponents managed to do that, maybe we could also. But when opponent scores their 10th kill, all is lost. Desperate situation changed to lost match, but still everybody must continue.

So my suggestion is this: have second match end when match becomes unwinnable for one side.

I can see a surrender option maybe being a thing, but outright ending the match might be extreme. I, while a recognizable player, still encounter people who can kick my ass in matches. I see those games as learning experiences. I would feel cheated out of the full experience were that to be cut short. When I encounter someone better then me, I watch, learn and adapt. If that were to be taken away, other players would miss out on this as well. I've seen quite a few people who used getting dominated as new motivation to learn and improve on their own gameplay.

FireWorks_
21st Dec 2014, 01:33
I brought up the idea of a surrender vote a couple times now, but it was meant as a fail safe for matches that are heavily broken games that will be constantly left due to massive imbalance, bugs like 4v3ghosting, etc. I think it still is a good idea to close broken lobbies instead of having a timesink that will constantly have players leaving for the next 15mins. Thankfully those matches get rarer and rarer over time.

I dont think its a viable idea for a normal match with 60-40 ending score...

mr0661
21st Dec 2014, 14:57
Again, I will not comment about surrender option, as that is not topic here and is besides the point.

I can see a surrender option maybe being a thing, but outright ending the match might be extreme. I, while a recognizable player, still encounter people who can kick my ass in matches. I see those games as learning experiences. I would feel cheated out of the full experience were that to be cut short. When I encounter someone better then me, I watch, learn and adapt. If that were to be taken away, other players would miss out on this as well. I've seen quite a few people who used getting dominated as new motivation to learn and improve on their own gameplay.

I'll have to wholeheartedly disagree. Ending match, when match has ended is only natural; full experience is only matter of definition. To your second point, losing match as learning experience, part of the game after match has been decided is not much of a learning experience. All pressure of winning the match is gone.

With my suggestion, people would have full experience, not that dragged out part in the end. There is much to learn in that time that there is still match going on. Also in this kind of a game, you need co-operation of your team-mates to truly see what you are doing right and what wrong. If hopes to win the match are completely gone, it is likely that everyone is not playing 100%. When game ends, you have option with current system start a new game with same people, if everyone is willing.

This question circles around my suggestion: What is is goal of the game, when winning or losing is not an option?
I don't think there is goal in game after match has been decided. This makes rest of game incoherent. I think whole game would be more enjoyable if this incoherence was removed.

SiD_Green
22nd Dec 2014, 11:53
It's not "incoherent", though. Your moment to moment objectives haven't changed at all after the match becomes unwinnable. That's a personal hangup of yours. It implies that the gameplay is not important to you, just the victory screen.

mr0661
22nd Dec 2014, 16:20
It's not "incoherent", though. Your moment to moment objectives haven't changed at all after the match becomes unwinnable. That's a personal hangup of yours. It implies that the gameplay is not important to you, just the victory screen.
Those moment to moment objectives are derived from actual goal of game. End screen is to enforce a social agreement with my teammates, which is to work towards our common goal.
Goal->strategy->objectives

So when Goal of game changes other things change. If it is removed, others are irrelevant. You can think how game would look if there was no goal. Basically that is state that games is degenerating towards when goal is removed.

You also claimed that you moment to moment objectives haven't changed at all. For me, that is not true, and for many who have written in this topic, have also changed their goal, thus objectives. Learning, having fun, sticking out, gain stuff are all completely valid goals to have, but they lead different 'moment to moment objectives'. Which character should I choose, should I help my teammate, should I heal now are all things that can be affected as those goals change.

It is also possible, that these goals exist even when match is still on. Idea is, that our smarty-pants developers have thought these other possible goals and machiavellianned game in a way to archieve these other goals, it is best to try to win match, which is new goal developers have enveloped.

I will draw analogy from other sport, lets say basketball.

You are playing with uneven field, there are hills and holes in field, so you decide that after 10 minutes passes or after one team scores 30 points, you will switch sides, to even out oddities in field. This switch is done only once. Teams are very skilled, and are called Red and Blue.

Game start and both play very good game. First half-time goes to team Red with score 30-20. Second half-time starts. Score is 15-10(Red-Blue). But then Blue team learns to use field to their advantage, and starts to dominating the game, but then, when score is 20-29 Red team scores their 21th point of second half-time.

Should match continue? Lets assume that there is audience watching, what would you think in audience what should happen?

Because previously agreed match continues. Do you think players will give their best effort? Will it be enjoyable to watch or to play?

Rago600
22nd Dec 2014, 16:44
Im Playing Nosgoth Since last November (2013).
Well i did Quit a Match only IF :

- My Work calls me because there is a Emergency or Similar things that happen in Life, like Family stuff and so on....


I never quit any Matches because im loosing, sometimes, my team changed 3-4 Times in 1 Round, This is 9-12 New Players in 1 Round of a 2 Round Match
which means i can not win the Game, but i don´t care at all, as long as i am having fun.
The thing is often People Ragequit because they dont stand a Chance against a better team OR they simply play this Game alone and Die until they Quit.

But thats for the New Players.
I would suggest to Expand the "New Player Lobby to Level 15 or 20"

But im The Optimistic Person , i can not speak for other Players.

Sometimes i Play 6 Matches and loose them all.
Sometimes it´s the Opposite.
I dont see any Point, it is nice to Win but playing the game itself is what keeps me, to Play it on and on again...

I think i still do my best even if its 6 to 30 and im the only one Scoring.

GameFreakTV
23rd Dec 2014, 19:06
They just need to fix match making and i dont think it would be as big of a problem. when you have a bunch of new players, playing people that are a lot higher level with better skills ect. it get very frustrating .