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ironhorse86
13th Dec 2014, 17:56
UPDATE: Here's videos demonstrating the issue
http://youtu.be/PWPZGXQNwg4
http://youtu.be/PiHszxbm2hc

I can pretty much confirm this is from a lack of extrapolation, also known as "dead reckoning"

--------------------------------------------------------

Hello, I searched the forums and haven't seen any answer to this so forgive me if it's been brought up already


All players' positions and animations skip and hitch, and are generally not smooth whatsoever.
(First person movement and animations are uneffected!)
This is much more apparent during fast movement and can be witnessed in any youtube video or in person.
Best reproduction steps are to watch a teammate strafe while facing you - or during any movement that covers ground quickly.

It can be hard to see if you're used to it, but look closer and you'll notice players "warping" to 2 or 3 positions along a path.
I am unsure if it is related to server update rates (most likely) or if it has to do with a poor prediction or interpolation configuration.

I know Unreal 3 has had issues like this in the past with some games, so I thought i'd just ask if the devs were aware and if they are planning anything?

This has been disrupting the game for me, especially as i attempt to track these warping vampires.. but I am really enjoying what little of this game I have played, anyhow. It has a surprising amount of depth for being not very complicated. Job well done there :)

Thanks for your time

FireWorks_
13th Dec 2014, 18:19
Its there, its annoying, I got used to it and swear at people over 90ping :D

Fun fact, the comp players in Nosgoth are so desperate to get any playtime that they ignore it and wanna play EU and US together... while any other comp community would be **** hard :nut:

Warping vampire to the face!:worship:

ironhorse86
13th Dec 2014, 22:00
Its there, its annoying, I got used to it and swear at people over 90ping :D
It can't just be lag compensation, right?
You can reproduce it with yourself and another player when you're both under 50 ms latency, which pretty much rules out lag compensation.

I suspect server update rates are low and there is zero entity prediction occurring? Which.. is odd, especially for a fast paced game typical for unreal games since they don't inherently come with lag compensation... but Tim Sweeney DID include prediction to smooth out movement.

Interpolation should still account for any loss of entity position data in between server updates to the client..

ironhorse86
16th Dec 2014, 18:55
So I found this information where another individual noticed the same thing in the Unreal Engine... it may be helpful idk :

https://forums.epicgames.com/threads/890579-Solved-Network-Replication-Issues-kActor-jitters?p=30089224&viewfull=1#post30089224

"I fixed it. I increased the physics rate which caused the problems. I also increased the max sub steps size in the WorldInfo properties of the level. But what I didn't increase was the same setting in the UDKGame.ini. After I increased maxsubstep size there as well, it .. it just worked."

Also are the devs using Pawn or PlayerController for player scripts?
Because only PlayerController comes with proper networked defaults like prediction for multiplayer that avoid such jerky movement / update issues.

FireWorks_
16th Dec 2014, 22:25
Hope the right person reads what you posted :)

It also seems to be a player related issue. Yesterday I ran into Garfield ,,,.ru, say hi if you read this, and he just stutters like hell compared to anybody else on the server. With a stable ping of 60. Would be nice to know, what is actually causing.

PencileyePirate
17th Dec 2014, 00:11
I wonder if this is related to intermittent packet loss, since I've seen strange issues even w/ low latency.

Perhaps irrelevant here, but every once in a while my vampire animations will spaz out while climbing/running and the player model will do one of the following: spin around while climbing; launch high into the air; momentarily walk the wrong direction, i.e. toward player camera independent of inputs; or produce a weird camera desynchronization that causes it to jump 10ft above the player model.

ironhorse86
30th Dec 2014, 06:28
Here's a video i made to better highlight the issues.
Any devs or community members able to chime in?

http://youtu.be/PiHszxbm2hc

FireWorks_
30th Dec 2014, 16:20
Devs are on vacation

MasterShuriko
30th Dec 2014, 16:39
Imagine their faces when they get back with all Tech, bug reports we been casting at them^^

ironhorse86
30th Dec 2014, 19:39
Let us hope this see this. :)
I sent them a tweet of it as well as a bug report, and haven't heard back from any of these attempts just yet.

riccetto80
31st Dec 2014, 01:04
Have same issue since some patch, sometimes less sometimes i log out cause rage...

to me happen to "myself" most, i see also warping enemy, but most happen to me, i run without control or warl around the map or i get killed receiving all damage all together...

before, never happen, not like this...

is really boring and destroy any fun on playing.

Nordikc
31st Dec 2014, 20:42
Hope to see this fixed soon.

FireWorks_
5th Jan 2015, 15:35
Got a lovely demo of a sentinel warping meters to the left and right after grabbing a player. Oddly he had a ping of 16

Nordikc
1st Feb 2015, 07:20
Have the devs looked into this?

Nordikc
5th Feb 2015, 16:33
It would be great if this could be looked into. The video in the OP shows the problem pretty well I think.

ApollosBow
5th Feb 2015, 17:14
Huh?....

http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag14/halfminutehero99/ShowBoaten_zps74284fe0.png








^Got lucky with where im renting for now. In all seriousness though, ye i hope it gets sorted. Looks annoying.

FireWorks_
5th Feb 2015, 19:00
Huh?....

http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag14/halfminutehero99/ShowBoaten_zps74284fe0.png


^Got lucky with where im renting for now. In all seriousness though, ye i hope it gets sorted. Looks annoying.

This is not a matter of ping or bandwidth.
Ive seen a guy with 16ping warping like hell. Or like mentioned above, a player stuttering like only few others do. As if the smoothing was disabled for him alone.

To be honest, with the recent influx of network hax I wonder if these people tinkered with their net devices. Theres also a russian streamer that loves to abduct and then just flick left and right fast. What you see then is a sentinel teleporting to the left and right for a good meter. Awesome...

Iklozanian
5th Feb 2015, 19:35
Sometimes (most, when round just begun) game teleports me in that place, where I was like 1-2 min ago. I thought, maybe it's internet issue, I checked - no, internet is stable, good ping, no packet loss. It happens like 1-2 time per round, but still kinda annoying.

Alluziion
5th Feb 2015, 19:55
This post is from December so the problem the OP speaks of may have been fixed during that time and the new lag/de-sync issue is a separate problem... especially seeing as though it only began to happen after the Feb 03 update. Nevertheless, the game is unplayable and I'm disappointed that the Dev's haven't announced anything... especially seeing as though they stated they want to be transparent with the community.

DesolatedMaggot
6th Feb 2015, 04:16
This is not a matter of ping or bandwidth.
Ive seen a guy with 16ping warping like hell. Or like mentioned above, a player stuttering like only few others do. As if the smoothing was disabled for him alone.

To be honest, with the recent influx of network hax I wonder if these people tinkered with their net devices. Theres also a russian streamer that loves to abduct and then just flick left and right fast. What you see then is a sentinel teleporting to the left and right for a good meter. Awesome...

My theory on this is that it is in fact a ping issue, but the ping on the scoreboard is inaccurate for one reason or another.

Reasoning: Last night I attempted to play a few matches with a friend of mine. His ISP was having some technical difficulties that particular night, so his connection was ridiculously slow; VOIP was choppy at best, trouble loading web pages, etc etc. On Nosgoth he was teleporting, running into walls, and witnessing others doing the same. Eventually he was ejected from the match and decided to call it quits because he was lagging too badly to do anything, all with a ping of 24, according to the scoreboard. Neither of us saw it go above 24 and we both watched it intently.

Zhalix
6th Feb 2015, 05:41
Sometimes (most, when round just begun) game teleports me in that place, where I was like 1-2 min ago. I thought, maybe it's internet issue, I checked - no, internet is stable, good ping, no packet loss. It happens like 1-2 time per round, but still kinda annoying.

*EDIT*
These de-syncing issues are directly tied to my account. I am able to play on an alt account just fine. A friend tested my main account and was experiencing the same de-syncing and teleportation.
*EDIT*


I have been experiencing almost this exact issue since the last patch, even though I have a low ping and there is no in-game notification of network problems. Every match I experience a cycle where I am at first able to play normally, and then an interval where none of my attacks land, I cannot use abilities, and other players in the match see my character running into a wall. During this period I am able to move around and see what is going in the match just fine. After 20 seconds of this, I 'rubberband/teleport', and I am able to play again for a short while. This has been happening at a 1:1 ratio of play to non-play.

I don't believe it's my internet connection. I have tried switching between Comcast and Centurylink(backup), different routers, and wired to wireless. Additionally I am able to play other games, browse the web, and use Skype at the same time I am experiencing this issue and not notice any problem.

I have tried a fresh install of Nosgoth and Steam and a system restore to a couple of days before the patch. So far nothing has helped my issue.

TheDreamcrusher
6th Feb 2015, 06:17
I thought one of the devs stated in a post from a few weeks ago that there was a server interpretation issue where client-side was displaying a player character in one place but the server is tracking them in another location, causing them to look like hit-detection was failing and for them to suddenly change locations like warping? I'm not sure what to search for, but I am thinking this is what everyone has been seeing only it's getting worse as time goes on.

ironhorse86
6th Feb 2015, 06:45
It is not ping or ISP related. I have ruled that out with line tests from myself and participating friends.
I believe anyone can reproduce this issue just based on the fact that I have seen it in every youtube video posted for Nosgoth.
It is visible in game and as a result in NosCam. Just try it for yourself.. :)
It's easiest to see the issue in Noscam because you can slow it down instead of taking live gameplay and slowing it down. (looks the same, though - i've compared)


Really guys.. just try it, and actually watch the player movement.
I don't know how this isn't a dealbreaker for most, because it is for me. I cannot track what clearly hitches back and forth at a high frequency or teleports. And make no mistake: In melee vs. ranged games, ranged players rely on being able to track their target in order to be viable.

Here, I just spent 10 minutes in the current build making this to confirm that the issue still exists :
http://youtu.be/PWPZGXQNwg4

Notice how the ragdolls / physics play at a normal rate without warping? That's how the rest of the game should look..
I hope you're right Dreamcrusher, because so far i've received zero response to bug reports, this thread, twitter, and PMs.. does anyone have a link to that? All I want is for this to be on their radar :)

Iklozanian
6th Feb 2015, 10:28
Random teleports bug
Here is video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ACWYYDde0Y

Nordikc
7th Feb 2015, 00:29
This bug is pretty well documented here. I would personally love to see a developer response.

ironhorse86
7th Feb 2015, 22:21
I can pretty much confirm this is from a lack of extrapolation, also known as "dead reckoning"

CardinalSmoke
10th Feb 2015, 08:38
I've played frequently for several months now. I love this game, but lately a technical issue has been turning fun into frustration. Network synchronization has been poor ever since open beta. I don't think it's ultimately a lag problem, because it persists even when everyone's ping is green, though it may become worse with laggers present. I always play US West where my ping is normally below 50. In at least half of my games, all of the players are below 100 ping.

I had a very good experience in closed beta. Almost no warping or rubberbanding ever. Then open beta goes live, and every match I feel like I'm suffering a high ping, yet I press Tab and latency looks fine. It's most obvious climbing to the tops of walls, during which the animation stutters and repeats. Running players shift position every now and then. Dodge behind a wall and still get shot a split second later. Hear the sentinel's screech and get abducted immediately. You know, the usual sort of problems caused by lag, except it's not. These occur frequently throughout the match but not constantly. It's playable, but annoying.

Could it be that the servers just can't handle this many players? I wonder how many games are hosted by a single machine. Or maybe a network bug was introduced in the open beta patch? I see new players all the time now, so I haven't had much opportunity to ask veterans if they experienced the same sudden change. Would anyone like to share their experience?

Apologies if there's already a suitable thread for this. I searched but I only found reports of actual high ping, whereas my ping has always been low.

EDIT: Looks like my post has moved to this thread. Seems like a fair place to put it, though I would like to emphasize that I didn't notice anything this bad until Jan 21st.

ironhorse86
11th Feb 2015, 18:26
Wait, your post was moved to this thread? -_-
Have not received any official reply from community managers or devs. They obviously know it exists tho.. hmm

maddpadd
12th Feb 2015, 00:02
I've just started playing nosgoth & like it a lot but the servers are poop!
The lag issues seem to be getting worse the more I play, I gave up after this tonight (see video linky below)
Oh & everyone in the game had ping under 50 & it was on EU servers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOMlRhU5kp4

runner1918
12th Feb 2015, 02:52
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs3gbxeNdEI

I made a video showing the issues I am having. I deleted the cache and .ini files and it fixed it. Then it started happening again and deleting the files didn't work. My friend lives 1 mile away from me and has a different ISP and it's happening to him as well.

Wolf_the_Legend
12th Feb 2015, 07:23
had this too a few times when human round starts (or the match, idk) for the first 30s i couldn't deal dmg to anyone ... then I got "rubberbanded" ... never had this in closed beta.

war_mouth
16th Feb 2015, 21:10
I've played frequently for several months now. I love this game, but lately a technical issue has been turning fun into frustration. Network synchronization has been poor ever since open beta. I don't think it's ultimately a lag problem, because it persists even when everyone's ping is green, though it may become worse with laggers present. I always play US West where my ping is normally below 50. In at least half of my games, all of the players are below 100 ping.

I had a very good experience in closed beta. Almost no warping or rubberbanding ever. Then open beta goes live, and every match I feel like I'm suffering a high ping, yet I press Tab and latency looks fine. It's most obvious climbing to the tops of walls, during which the animation stutters and repeats. Running players shift position every now and then. Dodge behind a wall and still get shot a split second later. Hear the sentinel's screech and get abducted immediately. You know, the usual sort of problems caused by lag, except it's not. These occur frequently throughout the match but not constantly. It's playable, but annoying.

Could it be that the servers just can't handle this many players? I wonder how many games are hosted by a single machine. Or maybe a network bug was introduced in the open beta patch? I see new players all the time now, so I haven't had much opportunity to ask veterans if they experienced the same sudden change. Would anyone like to share their experience?

Apologies if there's already a suitable thread for this. I searched but I only found reports of actual high ping, whereas my ping has always been low.

EDIT: Looks like my post has moved to this thread. Seems like a fair place to put it, though I would like to emphasize that I didn't notice anything this bad until Jan 21st.

I too have been experiencing pretty much the same issues CS and have been told by other players in matches that I am 'teleporting' around yet my ping is less than 50 and I'm getting 80+ fps.

When running I will run for a couple seconds and then teleport or hitch forward - jumping ahead several meters.

i5/GTX760/8gb ram/ssd with 10meg cable internet. Constant problems, good in some matches but really unbearable most of the time.

And still no response from any dev.

war_mouth
17th Feb 2015, 22:47
Still having the same issues described above, and no response from tech support on the ticket I started yesterday after making that post.

kLauE187
18th Feb 2015, 20:19
i have weird lags too. feels like i have choke/loss (packetloss) what it was called back in cs1.6. wallclimbing stutters, shots or melee attacks dont deal dmg when they should or teleporting players over short distance. ping 20ms and 100+ fps constantly on EU server.

war_mouth
19th Feb 2015, 20:23
This lag issue remains a problem. I did get a response from the ticket I submitted but no solutions as of yet. Should any fix or solution present itself I will post back.

Psyonix_Corey
19th Feb 2015, 23:54
Regarding the original content of this thread: A couple things.

1. We have a fix coming that will smooth out movement interpolation in root motion states. This encompasses melee, traversal (climbing, etc.) and certain abilities, like Pounce landing, etc. This will reduce the "jitter" you're seeing watching melee attacks, etc. in replays or in general. We do (and Unreal does) networked motion interpolation automatically, but we were handling movement differently in these states.

2. Regarding the points about anim/physics: You see animation and physics as "smooth" and movement as more jittery because that's how client simulation works. We can run animation and physics locally because they don't affect gameplay in Nosgoth. Player position and movement is a totally different story because position is always gameplay relevant to things like damage detection. So we have to make sure things are kept in sync between client and server, and that sometimes means things can't be perfectly smooth.

Online games commonly 'predict' player movement to smooth things out and mask latency, but it becomes impractical when you have nonhuman / fast moving player characters like flying vampires, for instance. The server does its best, but there's only so much you can do when players need to stay relatively in sync.

ironhorse86
20th Feb 2015, 22:33
....

Thank you so much for the response, and for the impending fix!!

So it was the server side interpolation of entity positions and not extrapolation.. interesting.

I would have thought that extrapolation (prediction) would have been used for at least deterministic movement scenarios - which from what I can tell, make up most of the fast movements in the game, like pounce or uppercuts etc.
Many competitive games, some with faster moving players than Nosgoth, still utilize extrapolation for deterministic movement without incident.

If extrapolation (prediction) was too difficult for you guys to implement (which puts humans at a natural disadvantage having to lead targets based on variable latencies) or you were not interested in it for another reason - you could always double the update rate of the server to assist in more accurate entity positions. I would think that the UE engine and Nosgoth could afford such a server rate increase without performance loss considering the very low entity count.
And with Nosgoth focusing on the E-sport genre, I would think faster server rates would be lauded.

At any rate, I am no longer going to hold back on purchasing items in game now that I know this is going to be resolved.
Wonderfully fun game, thanks! :)

Psyonix_Corey
23rd Feb 2015, 22:43
So it was the server side interpolation of entity positions and not extrapolation.. interesting.

We aren't quite on the same page still - certain states use custom movement that wasn't smoothly blending between position updates due to a bug. Pounce itself is not related to this - the Pounce landing animation is, however, which is what some of the videos showed being jerky.

Attacks aren't deterministic because we allow players to pivot during the swing, and collision can cause movement to be halted or slowed mid-attack. We've done quite a bit of movement extrapolation and prediction in other projects so it's not a case of difficulty, just the sheer unpredictability of the vast majority of our player movement states.

Pounce may actually be the only single deterministic movement state in the game that could be reliably extrapolated by a client.

ironhorse86
24th Feb 2015, 01:56
Got it, thanks for the clarification and in depth answer!
Can't wait for the fix :)

Wolf_the_Legend
3rd Mar 2015, 21:37
http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/59828753.jpg

FireWorks_
3rd Mar 2015, 22:28
Wow being abducted is hardcore stuttering now. I couldnt really play much but it happend each time I got grabbed. Nice move on the update rate but maybe you can have a look at the abducted players view again?

Wolf_the_Legend
5th Mar 2015, 20:59
ye well ... I´m getting abducted even if the sentinel is still 4m away -.-

Netcode (or whatever it is called) is really suffering from the last few patches *sad face*

AdmiralPPR
6th Mar 2015, 08:04
Reading all this really makes me wanna see how this game-coding stuff really works :D

Nice thread! ... Though I too got the feeling, that something is amiss with the latest patch regarding lag/teleports.