PDA

View Full Version : Sentinals Abduct/Kidnap



absinthesize
11th Dec 2014, 06:20
I cant help feel that for the return, these abilities are incredibly annoying.

first your flying, youd think that would be a boon...but from what ive seen its far from it.

A tyrant can have knockdown immunity and more speed when coming around a corner with charge, or can have more speed with jump.

reavers leap, no problem

you need that speed to get into melee range of humans before you die

This means you have to

A-get flying, not difficult

B-approach the human from a angle as such so that they have the bare minimum of shooting time before you pick them up, takes a bit of learning

But then there is this fun little annoyance, and this is from my experience playing it so feel free to tell me im wrong.

you press kidnap and a circle begins to fill on your reticule. you have to be flying into the human...at about the same time as this reticule fills. too early you dont pick them up, too late you fail to pick them up and the cooldown is triggered.

that is just....tooo punishing imo. ya im sure people will say "it promotes skill!"

my reply, is it promotes tedious requirements to do something that is already a high risk maneuver.

IN THE VERY LEAST the cooldown shouldnt trigger.

now im a noob, you can tell me to get gud all you want, but it wont change that for the risk, and all the things that must align for this skill to function, its just not worth it...id rather just learn the trajectory on a reavers pounce, reminds me of avp2 lan games i played long ago.

Razaiim
11th Dec 2014, 07:51
I'm sorry, but based on what you have written here, it really does seem like you have not used these skills enough. Granted I've run sentinel since alpha, and only just switched to deciever, so some of this might not seem very obvious, but it is all stuff that can be learned with a little time and practice, seeing as many of the mechanics involving Kidnap/abduct were changed a few times since closed beta launch in February.

You compare the speed of jump, charge, and pounce, but dive speeds are also quite high, and you have far more control than either of these skills. There are also a number of different ways to fly. You can go high up and see all and get monster speed when you come in, or a huge hit on divebomb. You can keep it low near rooftops which keeps you sheltered and but mobile. You can travel like other vampires and use the flight for extended jumps. This is before dodging, dodge boosting, dropping with space, just weaving around, circling etc.

Second, you do not actually need to start flying. What many more seasoned players do is lurk until they see an opportunity, walk off an edge and activate the skill. It's quick, stealthy, you don't have the wingflaps tipping anyone off early. You can also approach in full line of sight, activate the skill just over them, and circle down and swoop in, so humans are trying to track and fire as you spiral down at a good speed, rather than a straight line.

Third. Once the circle charges, you have until the circle fully depletes to make the grab. It can be a rather generous window, and allows some room to loop around if you activate late, and some time for other maneuvers like what I've mentioned.

The dislocation and separation potential are far greater than the nearest comparable skill, Dominate mind, with greater damage to boot, and is in my experience easier and often safer to utilize successfully. So I disagree. For even an intermediate user playing in their skill range, the benefits can far outweigh the risks barring something like a high scout count.

PencileyePirate
11th Dec 2014, 08:04
It's pretty easy to time kidnap/abduct, I don't see what the fuss is about.

Da_Wolv
11th Dec 2014, 08:49
You compare the speed of jump, charge, and pounce, but dive speeds are also quite high, and you have far more control than either of these skills. There are also a number of different ways to fly. You can go high up and see all and get monster speed when you come in, or a huge hit on divebomb.

Second, you do not actually need to start flying. What many more seasoned players do is lurk until they see an opportunity, walk off an edge and activate the skill. (...)

Third. Once the circle charges, you have until the circle fully depletes to make the grab. It can be a rather generous window, and allows some room to loop around if you activate late, and some time for other maneuvers like what I've mentioned.
.

Totally agree.
_________________________________________________________
Sentinel is my main class, and there were lots of things I didn't know about it at first. Hopefully, come the tutorials, that will be covered. Anyway, a few tips from me:

1) DONT FLY! Sounds kinda counterintuitive? That's why it is. Casually flying is the worst thing you can do.
Only fly when you are: Moving from a position A to a better position B, Get ready to engage, try to escape or catch up to a Human running to a station you would not be able to catch on foot.
2) Use A and D!
The direction keys if used in conjunction with a rapid mouse movement will boost your speed.
When attacking, always make sure you are as fast as you can be, because the speed you have going in also influence your speed going out, which increases your dmg-output and distance you can carry a human off to.
3) Don't pick fights you cant exit!
Best are situations on high ground, where you can fly in, get a melee hit and maybe a puncture/wing flap out, then immediately jump off a ledge, start flying, hit A/D+Mouse and SWOOOSH: You're gone!

For all the problems you have been describing - I'm sorry, but I disagree!
I would love them to prioritize the Sentinel Tutorial though!
Since the new MM system is in place, I've been playing a lot against and with fairly inexperienced players, and with no class is that more obvious than with Sentinel.
They come in at 2km/h, activating their Kidnap way too late (because noone ever told them how it works) and they either miss their pick or get blasted out of the sky before even coming anywhere near the human team.

absinthesize
11th Dec 2014, 09:22
yes i know you guys have been playing forever and are used to it. that doesnt mean its a good intuitive design.

frankly its not, and should be changed.

i also didnt fly really high in the sky, i tried to stay low, going thru corridors even. wich also means you will be going too slow to do anything respectable before getting killed, if i go high to dive bomb im shot out of the sky before i can gain any speed.

im glad you guys have come to terms and like it tho i guess.

FireWorks_
11th Dec 2014, 10:47
yes i know you guys have been playing forever and are used to it. that doesnt mean its a good intuitive design.

frankly its not, and should be changed.

i also didnt fly really high in the sky, i tried to stay low, going thru corridors even. wich also means you will be going too slow to do anything respectable before getting killed, if i go high to dive bomb im shot out of the sky before i can gain any speed.

im glad you guys have come to terms and like it tho i guess.

Youre right that getting used doesnt mean good design and I agree that it is not 100% intuitive. Tutorial would be so helpful and will be in the near future I hope.

However, when I read your post I thought that it might not be clear how the HUD circles work.
You click and it starts to charge. You cannot grab during this time. (This is to prevent instant grabbing, like when dropping from a close roof)
From the moment the circle is full, you can grab during the whole 1+sec the circle depletes. (This is a pretty large window once you know how to build up speed, since you can travel pretty far)


Wolv gave you a few very important hints on the last post. Hope you manage to get a better pilot soon :)

Vampmaster
11th Dec 2014, 13:20
Maybe it could change colour or shape or something between filling and emptying. Does the acceleration only start once it's full, because that would be more intuitive than having it swoop past the enemy before it can connect. Also, maybe it should cancel if you release the button before the ring fills up.

Ghewlish
12th Dec 2014, 01:17
Everyone has an opinion. I personally don't see any issue with the Sentinels abilities, however I DO see issues with Sentinels getting stuck/screwed over from the maps.

absinthesize
13th Dec 2014, 10:02
Everyone has an opinion. I personally don't see any issue with the Sentinels abilities, however I DO see issues with Sentinels getting stuck/screwed over from the maps.

on that note EVERYTHING is actually an opinion.

but its a fact that its clunky, unintuitive, and requires more stars to align then any other vamp ability. it needs some toning down in the learning curve because as it is right now its very unrewarding for the risks.

FireWorks_
13th Dec 2014, 10:16
on that note EVERYTHING is actually an opinion.

but its a fact that its clunky, unintuitive, and requires more stars to align then any other vamp ability. it needs some toning down in the learning curve because as it is right now its very unrewarding for the risks.

Facts? trololol
You are in politics by any chance? :D

On a more serious note, I am thankful the games is not dumbed down in every aspect. Only 3 abilities is already quiet simple.
Theres a couple of ways to learn the flying. How about you watch some streams? Launch a solo match and fly around there and "imagine" some target practice to get a feeling when to start the ability.

I agree there is a lack of tutorial and sandbox, but the ability itself is pretty solid _in my view_ (that is a fact).

absinthesize
13th Dec 2014, 12:01
no its an opinion

it is clunky, unintuitive and requires way more things to line up in your favor then the other skills.

SquirrelInDaSky
13th Dec 2014, 17:06
no its an opinion

it is clunky, unintuitive and requires way more things to line up in your favor then the other skills.

Sounds a bit like trolling after a third time you said the exact same thing. (given all the valuable info from seasoned vets).

The ability is designed that way to promote teamwork. You can't just fly in and get an easy grab every time on people that have awareness (unless you are playing against noobs). The human team must be distracted so you could "allign the stars". Kidnap is not a rambo insta-win ability, you gotta coordinate with the team to pull it off.

SiD_Green
13th Dec 2014, 21:39
it is clunky, unintuitive and requires way more things to line up in your favor then the other skills.

How does it require way more things to line up, exactly? You literally just fly into someone while the circle is counting down. There is plenty of time during that window to correct for their attempt at dodging.

absinthesize
14th Dec 2014, 03:47
Sounds a bit like trolling after a third time you said the exact same thing. (given all the valuable info from seasoned vets).

The ability is designed that way to promote teamwork. You can't just fly in and get an easy grab every time on people that have awareness (unless you are playing against noobs). The human team must be distracted so you could "allign the stars". Kidnap is not a rambo insta-win ability, you gotta coordinate with the team to pull it off.

seasoned vets had to overcome the learning curve, they did, it doesnt mean its not as i said it is. It just means they are used to it. it doesnt mean it should work that way.

if it was rambo insta win you

A-wouldnt take damage when flying away with your human
B-it one shot humans

it does neither, so im not sure where your getting this "rambo insta-win ability" idea from.

every ability in this game from what i can tell is either used to set up teamwork or feeds off of teamwork. my feedback doesnt change this.

absinthesize
14th Dec 2014, 03:48
How does it require way more things to line up, exactly? You literally just fly into someone while the circle is counting down. There is plenty of time during that window to correct for their attempt at dodging.

i explained how already in this thread.

SiD_Green
14th Dec 2014, 08:02
No, you did not. You just said it's hard and unintuitive, because you have difficulty doing it. You say it requires way more things to line up in your favor, but I don't see an explanation as to what, not a coherent one at least. You activate the skill, and slam your character model into an enemy character model before the timer runs out. So please explain how it requires more to line up? Almost any skill you could use WILL BE unsafe if you aren't smart about it; this isn't unique with Abduct/Kidnap, nor is in a problem.

absinthesize
14th Dec 2014, 08:07
No, you did not. You just said it's hard and unintuitive, because you have difficulty doing it. You say it requires way more things to line up in your favor, but I don't see an explanation as to what, not a coherent one at least. You activate the skill, and slam your character model into an enemy character model before the timer runs out. So please explain how it requires more to line up? Almost any skill you could use WILL BE unsafe if you aren't smart about it; this isn't unique with Abduct/Kidnap, nor is in a problem.

i explained it it is not my fault if you were unable to find/understand it.

ive been practicing, i can do it fairly reliably now. doesnt change that its...wait for it

CLUNKY, UNINTUITIVE, AND REQUIRES THE STARS TO ALIGN TO USE EFFECTIVELY vs other skills where your more in control of using it smartly. its not enough for kidnap to simply use it smartly

Rago600
14th Dec 2014, 20:30
i explained it it is not my fault if you were unable to find/understand it.

ive been practicing, i can do it fairly reliably now. doesnt change that its...wait for it

CLUNKY, UNINTUITIVE, AND REQUIRES THE STARS TO ALIGN TO USE EFFECTIVELY vs other skills where your more in control of using it smartly. its not enough for kidnap to simply use it smartly

I think i´ll side with SID here,
Of course there are some "corners" of some Maps, but overall, the Control´s Intuitive and works fine.

It´s not like you say in Anyway, except of Map Corners and such stuff.
I never had any Problem with the Control´s and it´s good the way it is.

Did you ever Play a Game like Moon Patrol ?

cmstache
16th Dec 2014, 17:03
The sentinel has gotten better in the movement department. But the sentinel itself has been hammered so much by the ban hammer (Some more worthy than others) that kidnap and abduct are indeed clunky to use. I've mained sentinel as a vampire since the beginning of Alpha, so I've seen the changed first hand.

The biggest issue with the timer isn't the speed of the ring. It's the fact that you have a freakishly long tell when you use the skills. This has been discussed in depth on the forums numerous times, so I'm not going to type a wall of text about it, but the issue is that low-level players have been given so much warning from sentinels now that they is nothing you can do to grab a high level, or even a nice chunk of the intermediate level players without being absolutely punished for it.

There's a reason Sentinels don't see much high-level play.

Calderweiss
21st Dec 2014, 00:53
Well, you don't need to start flying to use it, you just have to be midair. Second, you time it so the circle fills up, and then when it goes in reverse, that is the time you can pick someone up. You just gotta prime it a little before you're even near the intended target. Try it out in a private match and look at the circle going backward after the initial charge-up, you'll see that you have quite a bit more time to pick people up then you might think =)