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Xayz711
9th Dec 2014, 05:26
I see why you removed it. People leave when they notice there are two level 40's on the other team and you have people under 20 on yours. It really needs to be brought back. I can't tell if the adv matchmaking is actually adv or just hiding that its complete crap since I still get paired up with people who say they are lvl 18 against people who say they are lvl 40.

FireWorks_
9th Dec 2014, 06:35
Well.. I can still check their profile in the lobby and see that 5hours Nosgoth fit to the awesome 12deaths and 4k damage the round before...

I really hope this sorts itself out very fast with the grand saviour mmr patch.

Rago600
9th Dec 2014, 08:38
Well.. I can still check their profile in the lobby and see that 5hours Nosgoth fit to the awesome 12deaths and 4k damage the round before...

I really hope this sorts itself out very fast with the grand saviour mmr patch.

I would never be interested to do so.^^ Why should i ?

jmts16
10th Dec 2014, 22:01
THe only logical reason they removed showing levels was to allow those stupid pubstomper squads to have their way.

Way too many times I've been put into a lobby with an entire side already filled and seeing in-game that they are all around 40.

I'm only level 19 and I honestly HATE playing and seeing that pretty much that the opposiing team is completely composed of people above 35. Not only they have the unfair advantage of having abilities I can't have, they outright ruin any fun I might have.

Afterall who likes being steamrolled by a team 20 levels above your own...

Vampmaster
10th Dec 2014, 22:27
The abilities shouldn't factor into it at all. They all come with a negative tradeoff to balance out their positive effects. If an ability seems OP to you, it's best to check if others agree with you and then let the developers know so they can correct it.

Enlightened_Fool
10th Dec 2014, 23:30
I personally don't mind being against higher levels as it makes me try harder, but I can understand that it intimidates a lot of other players. Other than for that, I don't see why we can't see levels and have mmr active.

xBaseLine
10th Dec 2014, 23:59
Well to all out there who complain about that they play against high lvls. Nearly everyone who came to this game had to play against lvl 40's. For sure it is hard because they know the game better the someone whos lvl 10 or something like this. But like Fool said, it just made me try harder, and learn what they do. How they go in/out as vamps, and where they stay as humans and how they use their abilitys. To say high lvls got better abilitys...well, its really not hard to get them for 7 days and try them out what fits best. So, train hard and you will learn the game as more as you play.

Malkev
11th Dec 2014, 01:05
Well, you have some truth but only in 1vs1. You can try to learn how to beat a one lv40, even if you are lv1, and probably you find the way. But if you are in a team all noobs and you try versus a pre-made team full of 40... you gonna have a really bad time dying and dying without knowing what happened and seeing how your entire team leave the match.

Anyway, i love not seeing the level. It's an double-edged sword, some people expect that if you are a lv40, you break all asses of the other team. Too much pressure. xD

PS: Baseline, you are a 40th, of course you love fight vs low levels. xD

FireWorks_
11th Dec 2014, 09:39
PS: Baseline, you are a 40th, of course you love fight vs low levels. xD

ahm... no. It is dull and boring to fight them and it is even worse when the low levels are on your team and got "a lot to learn" before being able to contribute anything. They just nullify all your effort by feeding kills to the other team. It is easier to play with 3 than with a total noob...

Why do people like this get put together?

4hours of Nosgoth with people with over 500hours. Not even managed to do 800 damage in a whole round... AAAAA!!!

mauvo58
11th Dec 2014, 10:02
This was linked to from an earilier discussion: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/trueskill/

The interesting bit to me is that; the average number of games per gamer that the system ideally needs to identify the skill level in 2 Teams/4 Players is... 46.

So it's going to take a good while until everyone has had their skill level accurately identified. Until then there will be plenty of poorly balanced games, but things should improve over time. It's too early to judge if MMR is working, we just have to be patient for now.

For me, I really like the system, losing doesn't feel so bad. I know the system is learning that I shouldn't be matched against Dead Sun. :-)

As I've posted before, if MMR had been seeded based on level or play-time, then things would already be a little better. But I guess it's too late for that.

GenFeelGood
11th Dec 2014, 10:31
Once the new matchmaker is worked out the levels will become redundant. Not ever lvl 40 is as good as you think, since level only measures how much time you have spent on the game; and that is assuming you never used a booster. Against a noob, I would agree the level 40 has the advantage; but they aren't suppose to be going against a lvl 40 because they have new recruit. Those fresh out of new recruit at level 10 do have a bit of a hard time at first; but I fail to see how seeing player level remedies that, aside from just being able to justify to yourself that you need to quit the match before it starts as opposed to after.

On a side note, I hate going against premades as well since I usually solo; but when it happens, I just aim to do as much damage as possible.

FireWorks_
11th Dec 2014, 10:50
I just dont feel that the entry level of the MMR for new players is set properly at the moment.

Oh yea.. Premades suck.

Da_Wolv
11th Dec 2014, 11:18
Keep in mind:
The MMR isnt compeltely determined yet!
A lot of players need to play a lot mor matches before the new system takes effect.

Also, even a perfect matchmaking system can only work with what's available:
In a closed Beta, there aren't as many players in the matchmaking pool at any given moment as in other open games.
Would you rather play a (slightly) imbalanced match or wait for an hour?

GenFeelGood
11th Dec 2014, 11:23
I just dont feel that the entry level of the MMR for new players is set properly at the moment.

I agree it is rough and I know I have heard many say that they think the level cut off for new recruit should be raised; but I don't really think that is the way to go since it will only further delay the inevitable blitzkrieg you experience once your in the general population of team deathmatch (at least until the matchmaker is done). New people need new recruit as a space where they can get familiar with the game, but eventually they are gonna have to take the plunge; and spending a little more time in new recruit, fighting only noobs, isn't gonna prepare them any more than they already are by the time they reach the level cut off.

jmts16
11th Dec 2014, 19:58
The abilities shouldn't factor into it at all. They all come with a negative tradeoff to balance out their positive effects. If an ability seems OP to you, it's best to check if others agree with you and then let the developers know so they can correct it.

Sorry but you are 100% wrong. If you are saying that a Sentinel with base skills (Kidnap, Wing Flap, Dive Bomb) have ANY chance agaisnt an average level 40 player with all the skills then i dont know what to say: you are simply wrong.

I'm not saying that skills don't have drawbacks, but simply HAVING them opens up a lot of choices for the players, not even mentioning how higher levels have ALL the classes at their choice, so that if one doesn't work at a certain situation, another might. A new player has no such luxury. Even now, at level 19 I have a huge dificulty agaisnt Trap+Knifes Scouts who just position themselves in such way that they cover each other and if you try to jump them they stun lock you long enough to kill you.

I think that with a Deceiver I would have no such problem, since I would be able to sneak behind them and put the hurt on them but, eh, guess what, I DONT HAVE IT.

No matter what you say, levels DO matter. And the new matchmaker completely disregards levels, putting teams of levels 30-40 with levels 15-20. And having to wait 46 freaking levels to be at my "skill level" is just too long. Many times while facing such unbalanced teams I say "**** this ****, why am I wasting time playing something just to end up frustrated?" making me quit and play something where I have fun.

I dont want to play competitively, I want to play with people around the same footing as me (same classes/skills/levels) and have FUN.

Obisher
11th Dec 2014, 21:22
Most people here who want levels to be shown again are not looking at the whole picture. When people see a lvl 40 on their team, they have certain expectations of that player. So basically, playing when you're "all-mighty lvl 40" becomes really stressful if you're not doing too well, because you know certain people (especially lower lvls) expect you to be one-man army, the one who will carry the whole team to victory. As GenFeelGood said, level only shows approximate time you've been playing, it doesn't represent skill. Also, you can reach level 40 by playing only Hunter and Reaver, so when you try another class for the first time, people won't see you're lvl 1 with Tyrant. They'll see a lvl 40. It's good levels are no longer shown in lobby and in-game and I hope it will stay that way.

And I suggest you read this whole thread: http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=17267&highlight=hiding+levels

It should explain why it is better that the levels are hidden.

FireWorks_
11th Dec 2014, 21:59
Most people here who want levels to be shown again are not looking at the whole picture. When people see a lvl 40 on their team, they have certain expectations of that player. So basically, playing when you're "all-mighty lvl 40" becomes really stressful if you're not doing too well, because you know certain people (especially lower lvls) expect you to be one-man army, the one who will carry the whole team to victory. As GenFeelGood said, level only shows approximate time you've been playing, it doesn't represent skill. Also, you can reach level 40 by playing only Hunter and Reaver, so when you try another class for the first time, people won't see you're lvl 1 with Tyrant. They'll see a lvl 40. It's good levels are no longer shown in lobby and in-game and I hope it will stay that way.

And I suggest you read this whole thread: http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=17267&highlight=hiding+levels

It should explain why it is better that the levels are hidden.


You describe a good aspect. The whole point though is that you cant just hide the levels without further meassures. Nice it is disabled, but the matching of players in the current state is not better by any means than before the patch. You just cant reduce a player to ONE ******* number called MMR (or two like it is in trueskill).

Sanguise23
11th Dec 2014, 22:02
Im a lv 40, im average, i have been beaten by players in there teens (lv wise) doesnt happen alot but it does. Besides you are given the option to spend RL money if you want to "even" things out more. fot the most part the default skills are better (MOST)

FireWorks_
11th Dec 2014, 22:09
Im a lv 40, im average, i have been beaten by players in there teens (lv wise) doesnt happen alot but it does. Besides you are given the option to spend RL money if you want to "even" things out more. fot the most part the default skills are better (MOST)

And your point is that you dont like fair match ups and like it as pay to win? Really? Common...

Sanguise23
11th Dec 2014, 22:24
no, my point is its not the big deal it being made out to be. Pay to win, do you really believe that? and i had said skills are mostly sidegrades.

FireWorks_
11th Dec 2014, 22:36
no, my point is its not the big deal it being made out to be. Pay to win, do you really believe that? and i had said skills are mostly sidegrades.

Ever asked yourself why we have to explain so often that we think it is not pay to win? A new player can easily get the impression, when he has to face players with different equipment and more choices to play than he has. Even with the true sidegrades, you just dont face eachother on the same niveau.

A bad lv40 should still be treated different than a rookie.
And this goes both ways, I dont want the rookies to play with me and a fair share complains to have to play against me. (That stands until coaching is introduced)

Sanguise23
11th Dec 2014, 22:40
Ever asked yourself why we have to explain so often that we think it is not pay to win?
No, mostly i figure ppl dont read or are stupid, or both. there is no skill you can buy that is an "i win" button.

SquirrelInDaSky
13th Dec 2014, 16:49
Sorry but you are 100% wrong. If you are saying that a Sentinel with base skills (Kidnap, Wing Flap, Dive Bomb) have ANY chance agaisnt an average level 40 player with all the skills then i dont know what to say: you are simply wrong.

I'm not saying that skills don't have drawbacks, but simply HAVING them opens up a lot of choices for the players, not even mentioning how higher levels have ALL the classes at their choice, so that if one doesn't work at a certain situation, another might. A new player has no such luxury. Even now, at level 19 I have a huge dificulty agaisnt Trap+Knifes Scouts who just position themselves in such way that they cover each other and if you try to jump them they stun lock you long enough to kill you.

I think that with a Deceiver I would have no such problem, since I would be able to sneak behind them and put the hurt on them but, eh, guess what, I DONT HAVE IT.




Well, its funny that you use tyrant&knive+trap as an expample, cos a charge with ignore pain is perfect against traps. You clean the area, draw agro, bodyblock and watch your teammates shred them scouts apart. If you were a deciever, a mine field would end you.

wingflap and divebomb are great if you play support. Ofcourse, if you try to divebomb a single lvl40, you will fail. But you dont have to, there are 3 other dudes waiting to get stunned.

TapxJames
14th Dec 2014, 15:17
Sorry but you are 100% wrong. If you are saying that a Sentinel with base skills (Kidnap, Wing Flap, Dive Bomb) have ANY chance agaisnt an average level 40 player with all the skills then i dont know what to say: you are simply wrong.

I'm not saying that skills don't have drawbacks, but simply HAVING them opens up a lot of choices for the players, not even mentioning how higher levels have ALL the classes at their choice, so that if one doesn't work at a certain situation, another might. A new player has no such luxury. Even now, at level 19 I have a huge dificulty agaisnt Trap+Knifes Scouts who just position themselves in such way that they cover each other and if you try to jump them they stun lock you long enough to kill you.

I think that with a Deceiver I would have no such problem, since I would be able to sneak behind them and put the hurt on them but, eh, guess what, I DONT HAVE IT.

No matter what you say, levels DO matter. And the new matchmaker completely disregards levels, putting teams of levels 30-40 with levels 15-20. And having to wait 46 freaking levels to be at my "skill level" is just too long. Many times while facing such unbalanced teams I say "**** this ****, why am I wasting time playing something just to end up frustrated?" making me quit and play something where I have fun.

I dont want to play competitively, I want to play with people around the same footing as me (same classes/skills/levels) and have FUN.

Sorry but you're 200% wrong. I just wanted to say that this person has no clue what they're talking about and their misconceptions regarding the balance of this game should be ignored for the benefit of everyone. The very reason levels were taken out was because they were irrelevant to anyone else but yourself and there was tons of people perpetuating these misconceptions of level advantage items in the game.


Seriously stop listening to people who don't compete.

Sanguise23
15th Dec 2014, 13:50
Seriously stop listening to people who don't compete.

normally i support what you say but i dont compete and take offense to this

FireWorks_
16th Dec 2014, 13:23
Ah... just come from a refreshing kick in the ass. 60-a lot less. After the match I wanted to look at the steam profiles of the other team and all 4 were set to private. I dont have proof but judging from the lobby setting them all on the same side, Id say it was a premade :) And it just suck to be fed against them.

Common, when I queue solo I am not looking for PCWs ;)

SirRudyMan
19th Dec 2014, 09:50
Hiding the player level hasn't changed anything. People still leave the game when their team underperforms.

Why use a level system when you can't see the level of other players?

I think a voting system for these kind of changes is in order. A chance for each player to vote whether or not they want to hide or show their level.

Or an ingame option that allows you to hide or show your level.


What say you?

FireWorks_
19th Dec 2014, 11:06
Hiding the player level hasn't changed anything. People still leave the game when their team underperforms.

Why use a level system when you can't see the level of other players?

I think a voting system for these kind of changes is in order. A chance for each player to vote whether or not they want to hide or show their level.

Or an ingame option that allows you to hide or show your level.


What say you?

No, to all of it.

-Shiro-
19th Dec 2014, 11:53
I understand that you shouldn't fight in heavy weight when you're a lightweight, but... In every online game there are people more experimented than others, or playing together. In every online game, there are a lot of ragequiters and bad losers. When you play a competitive game, you should accept to lose, and not leaving your team fighting alone. That's the way you improve. There will allways be people complaining about that : beginners complain about advanced players having more abilities, then advanced ones complain about players spending more time into the game.

By the way, will we get blocked at level 40 ? I suppose we'll not. So, when will it be possible to continue our progression ?

Sugarcry
19th Dec 2014, 16:23
In LOL if a lvl 20 player plays vs a lvl 30 player he gets reckt 99% of the time (exept if smurf) You cant put lvl 40's with me for example wich i was at a point lvl 7 (i was stupid to join the normal que becouse the noob one was taking to long ) . Maybe just maybe if the machmaking gives me 3 or 4 times the reward (gold and exp) if i beat the premade 40 tryhards i can try my luck with my own premade of irl friends .
I dont think that the mathmaking is **** .
I think that the machmaking is almost nonexistant It just randomly maches players toghether .
The fact that they hidden the lvl is like : we dont want to see our ****ty machmaking .
I know you might not be abble to repair it with the number of players but still DONT CONSIDER USS STUPID ****S
And for all those ho like the game right now for stomping people i hope you will enjoy it after it will be empty if in open beta the machmaking is still **** .

Khalith
20th Dec 2014, 02:54
Levels are still visible in the game itself just not the lobby, if you see a bunch of high levels and it bugs you that much, just leave. Otherwise just play the game. I'm level 40 and had people leave the lobby immediately because they assume level 40 = amazing player which I am definitely not.

I'm glad the levels aren't visible in the lobby anymore. I'd rather at least get in a game then have a bunch of people cycle out of the lobby just because there is a level 40 in it.

Sugarcry
20th Dec 2014, 12:48
Levels are still visible in the game itself just not the lobby, if you see a bunch of high levels and it bugs you that much, just leave. Otherwise just play the game. I'm level 40 and had people leave the lobby immediately because they assume level 40 = amazing player which I am definitely not.

I'm glad the levels aren't visible in the lobby anymore. I'd rather at least get in a game then have a bunch of people cycle out of the lobby just because there is a level 40 in it.
The lvl's cant be seen ingame . Leaving a game shoud be considered a bad and punished . lvl 40 is not an amazing player but a lvl 40 is better than a lvl 15 . In lol like most multiplayer games that are not pay 2 win , if a player has 500 wins he can win vs someone with 1000 wins but a player with 10 wins wont win vs someone with 150 wins becouse you need to get used to the game .
Also what you said is contradictory "if you see a bunch of high levels and it bugs you that much, just leave" and "I'm glad the levels aren't visible in the lobby anymore. I'd rather at least get in a game then have a bunch of people cycle out"

Shutenti
20th Dec 2014, 13:02
I miss seeing the levels. I used them for two things:

To get a feel for the level of challenge I should expect in the match. Am I towards the top or the bottom end of the players present?

This makes a big difference to how I play; in a closely-matched game amongst level 40s I will play my best class and be much more careful about positioning and map traversal in general. In a match with weaker players or in which my side already appears to be the stronger one I'll pick a class I'm learning with and/or play around with fun tricks like trying to land 650 dmg savage pounces.

To evaluate my own performance

Say I finish a match with 12k damage and 8/8 kills. Did I do well against a stronger team than I'm used to playing against? Did I do badly against a weaker team because I tried things that didn't really work out? Should I be proud to place at #2 on my team because the rest of them are far more experienced players or do I think I could have done better?

Yes, you can get a feel for these things from the match itself but I really miss having a nice clear guideline. Once everyone's at level 40 it doesn't matter whether you show the player levels or not, but for everyone on their way up there it helps them not feel stupid when they get sniped all the time by that one Scout they can never seem to find.

How about an expected match difficulty rating?

I'd be perfectly happy without per-player levels and just a rating for each match, such as "Decent challenge", "Difficult", "Easy prey" or whatever. Or just show the overall MMR of each team and let me remember myself that 4k+ is currently hard for me and 3k-4k is decent.

TL;DR I don't want to obsess about my MMR or anyone else's but I do want to know whether a match is expected to be easy, balanced or challenging for someone of my current rating.

UnScope666
29th Dec 2014, 20:43
Would be nice if you can see the lvl of the players inn your lobby!!! BUT not in the ranked que i see your trying to crate!

lucinvampire
30th Dec 2014, 14:08
A while back people asked for the player levels to be removed (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=17267&highlight=hide+player+level)

Vampmaster
30th Dec 2014, 16:20
The whole point of showing levels in lobbies is so that players can decide whether to quit or not. The developers received lots of complaints about people quitting due to mismatched player levels, so hiding the levels is their solution for that.

I take it most people asking for the player levels think that matchmaking should be based on player level and the levels should be shown in lobbies to prove that it's working? I don't know how anyone can think that would be accurate. You'd have to assume that everyone started with the same skills at shooters in general (some people have decades worth), is equally skilled at PC gaming, learns at the exact same rate and doesn't use boosters (which when stacked, can almost triple your XP). I mean, you can't learn extremely high level play when you're just focusing on hitting your target or steering properly or keeping track of your teammates, but you will still level up as long as you play against others at your level. Also the Lv 40 cap means that once you reach that level, less skilled players will start to catch up with you even though you're much better than they are.