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View Full Version : My rant on competitive Nosgoth as of right now / ESL Feedback Wanted



RazielWarmonic
9th Dec 2014, 01:40
Some people wanted me to highlight this and post this on the forums, so here I am.
Careful, as this is a 24 minute rant, but I want to clear some things before you think I hate the game or anything.

I ******* LOVE this game and that's why I am so passionate about it
Bitey addressed some of these issues in his post, so I don't really expect replies
I am just really frustrated and I needed to rant so I did, I feel a little better now.
I have little pull over anything right now, and so please don't post here expecting I can change anything (especially on the ESL side of things), however if you have suggestions PLEASE post!
I'm sorry for ranting. :c


Now for the Twitch vod: http://www.twitch.tv/razielwarmonic/c/5645274

Thanks guys. ._.
Warmonic

uNborn-
9th Dec 2014, 02:17
The biggest problem with competitive Nosgoth right now is

1.) The game itself is unstable right now and a meta cannot be established because the balance changes are happening solely because low tier pub players complained bitterly long enough the dev's had to do something.

2.) The Region locks ruined the game. The EU scene besides Immortal whined to dodge competition and got their wish and even now in the NA scene People don't show up for competitive matches because and I quote "Its not worth trying". I.E what happened yesterday. Its absolutely embarrassing for the league and the game as a whole.

3.) You're absolutely right about not having any other gametypes to work with, but the problem is Nosgoth right now barely even works right in TDM. We haven't been able to establish anything really yet.

FireWorks_
9th Dec 2014, 03:12
Damn right it is frustrating! ... Take a deep breath and step back a little. Youll need the breath for the long journey ahead.

I feel the same every few weeks when I check in for a couple hours (650h by now), knowing that it cant have changed as much as it should have. And knowing that it is a very early state of the game...

Xeno said this in one of his last posts in September:

I can understand the hate for such business models, and I've witnessed games that have been in Beta for many many years, but it's rarely the intention of the company to stay in Beta forever. I know for a fact that everyone at Square Enix and Psyonix are looking forward to whenever the full launch of Nosgoth happens, but we certainly want the game to be ready for it when it does! Even if you see a single bug while it's still in Beta, then you know it's still not ready for a launch.

Purely based (unofficially) on the evidence at hand with Nosgoth, it was in Closed Alpha from September to February (6 months), and looks like it'll be in Closed Beta for approximately 1 year, if not before. I think we can fairly assume that the Open Beta may well last for 1-2 years, so we'd probably be looking at a mid-2016 launch. I'd like to stress how UNOFFICIAL that statement is though - It's my speculation.

Its a matter of ressources and Psy alone has not enough of it to pull a project that is already live.
They are a small studio and they did a GREAT job with the MP for dead sun when they got hired, but things changed and they got to do what we know as Nosgoth. They would do a nice full blown game if they had the time for it.

We on the other hand suffer from the beta tester impatience. Things just go so slow and everybody has his set of favorite issues that need instant addressing.

Square is helping them with some manpower. Like V_Zephonim the SE-QA lead and his team posting here from time to time, but they can only find the bugs and they still need to be coded out in hard work by Psy. I wouldnt wonder if the rumors you mentioned were true, about more SE coding help doing moduls that are not touching gameplay like the Noscam or the Twitch integration. (Id still like to punch a kitten for wasting ressources on twitch instead of ... ANYTHING.) On the other hand, taking them half a year for reworking the matchmaking to its current state completely speaks against any help of SE.

However the game is still at a very early stage, despite our hundreds of hours of experience with it. It just has different feelings for time ;) It is painful to accept and I hate it, hence my rants on the forum too...

Setting up comp at this early stage is problematic, especially with such a low playerbase. It takes time and I think it is too early, because a lot of mandatory features are not there yet and will take a while to be implemented. And they will be implemented a long side with pub features. There is this nasty basic rule that you just cant run any comp without a pub base supporting the game. So, as important and needed it may seem to bring X and Y to get comp going as fast as possible, as easy it is to miss what else the game needs to be a success.

For now, please hold your breath a little that you can keep burning for the whole future of nosgoth instead of burning out after only a month of private matches.



PS:Sorry im not a native speaker;)

coolmatt69
9th Dec 2014, 03:16
something to think about is adding ingame currency(runestones pref) prizes for maybe 2nd-6th places. give players besides the top team some sort of incentive to make teams or at the very least just show up.

also now that there's so little interest across the board, the region lock should be re-evaluated. something like an international league with the prize money pooled could work.

Halpachino
9th Dec 2014, 03:52
something to think about is adding ingame currency(runestones pref) prizes for maybe 2nd-6th places. give players besides the top team some sort of incentive to make teams or at the very least just show up.

also now that there's so little interest across the board, the region lock should be re-evaluated. something like an international league with the prize money pooled could work.

yeah that would be good incentive .I think my self to pretty decent player but nowhere as good as the teams on esl so i am always thinking whats the point.

I think a better idea would be to have tiered leagues like bronze, silver ,gold. the gold league would contain teams like hubris ,immortal ,deadsun ,anarchy etc and they would compete for the cash prize .
The silver league will contain good teams who feel there not on par with the pro,s and the bronze league will contain casual players who feel the have a solid team .these leagues will compete for runestones ,in game gold and skins etc.

rules could be if a team is dominating one league they are promoted to the next tier based of games stats such as wins and by what score they are winning there matches by and if a team is constantly placing last they are allowed to drop a tier based of game stats as well.

This way more people are inclined to sign up to play as they are not intimated by the big bad esl pro,s and if a team is is constantly winning and gets promoted the other teams feel they have a chance to win next tournament .

Necrozuki
9th Dec 2014, 04:06
I think people need to be more patient with things. I like that you take the initiative to talk about these kinds of things, and I think one thing that could help is if we have a sort of "figurehead" for the competitive scene. Whether that be you, or Petire, or Bitey, etc, we need someone who has Psyonix's ear, and the whole competitive community needs to back that figurehead. So Psyonix will have feedback from all the normal players, the people who just play the game to play it, and then Eric, or Corey, will have one player that's competitive, that they can get ahold of via E-mail, or Steam chat, or something, sit down, and talk through all the points the competitive players have come up with for that month/patch/test or whatever. I don't think Psyonix is deliberately ignoring the competitive community, I am sure our points are being heard right now, but I do believe they may have priorities elsewhere at this current moment.

Being a closed beta, with many more changes in the works, and as you stated in your rant, TDM is a very flawed mode for these tournaments, I don't agree with the weekly tournaments being played for money, regardless of how insignificant the amount of money is. EU has the benefit of a larger player base, and as you said, the tournaments for them are nail bitters every week, and that is great. NA tournaments are just a, for lack of better expression, **** stomp, every week. There isn't a large enough variety of NA teams for their to be a diverse playing field, with many teams being on equal level. Honestly I don't think that will change until the NA scene has a larger player base, and people are willing to put in the practice needed.

I am very hopeful that a spectator mode will cause the competitive scene to take off like wildfire, and I certainly hope it is something they plan to implement soon. In the meantime, I know the discrepancies with uploading Noscam files, but there needs to be a way to , at the very least, advertise the game to more people. Whether that be Psyonix uploading plain gameplay videos in any way possible to youtube, or holding a community stream, similar to what Warframe does, that would take some discussion, but more advertisement would be a large help for this game.

I feel like I am rambling a little bit so I will wrap this up. There are many players that still have many many game keys for people that want to play the game. I encourage people to go watch the streams that are on twitch almost daily, or talk to people that you know play the game with said players, and get yourself a beta key. The more contributions we can make to Psyonix's effort at fixing and making this game perfect the better.

Thank you for reading, and please, if any what I have said can be improved upon, please, please do so. :)

PencileyePirate
9th Dec 2014, 06:18
I think Psyonix dropped the competitive ball with spectator mode. Competitive play can't survive particularly long without spectators; it relies on viewers to generate interest and draw new players into the community. Since the spectator support was unexpectedly dropped from private lobbies and replays are too incomplete/unreliable to cover ... I'm surprised the cups went on as long as they did.

I honestly don't think the game is ready for comp, as many important things are still broken. Alchemist cannons and Deceivers have regularly non-registering hits. Replays have no player-perspective mode and become useless every update. Video performance can change drastically from build to build. New "game breaking" bugs appear regularly enough to disrupt the meta (e.g. Disguise's missing invisibility period or SS cancelling itself mid-activation.) I just hope competitive play takes off again once gameplay is more set in stone and reliable spectating/replay features exist.

ceppy_
9th Dec 2014, 06:54
Hi,

First off I would like to take the same stance as Raziel about how much I love this game. I never thought I would enjoy this game as much as I do.

Now, just a little background on myself before I start throwing around suggestions blindly and criticizing certain things. I have been a admin for Quake 3,4, and live since 2004 in some form or another. I have worked with events/leagues such as ESL, Quakecon (since 05), and I was lead Quake 3 admin at the ESWC World Final in San Jose in 2008. I have worked closely with id software devs on map balancing, weapon balancing, and basic gameplay changes to make their new releases run fairly and smoothly. I was also a professional Quake 4 player in 2007 competing on the WSVG circuit, and I was also a professional Quake Live CTF player in 2009.

So now that that is out of the way, I have been a tester for many alphas and betas as well. Based on my short time here (Aug. 25th I started playing) I have had a complete blast playing and learning the finer points of this game. The potential is there for it to be an extremely fun and entertaining title to play and watch. The people I have met playing this game are genuinely awesome people. Especially the very small competitive group of players that are out there.

So, competitive play and my thoughts...... There are a few things that I want to address on this front. Raziel was talking about one team dominating every week therefore causing others to feel like there is no point in even playing. There are a few ways to fix this problem that have been used so many times before across many other games.

1. Create a ladder system based on skill level.

This method is similar to leagues like OGL back in the day where one team challenges a team ahead of the other team in the
rankings to move up if they win. At the end of the "season" the top 4 teams in the ladder play each other for the "season"
championship. This is also a good way to scrim and practice teamwork with a purpose. Examples would be similar to CAL - I for
Counter Strike. The only issue I see with this model is the amount of teams/players available during closed beta to do this. Is
the community big enough to support a ladder system???

2. Take money out of the equation

So basically remove the money aspect out of the equation completely, orrrrrr you could have 1 major tournament per month with
some serious cash involved. Make it a double elim tournament with group stages to make seeding the teams easier. Still have the
weekly cups, but instead of money use in game content as prizes for the top 3 competitors. Banners, special skins, in game titles,
gold or silver chests for competing. That way people will have incentive to want to play so they can get that special skin for
competing, or that awesome banner that no one else has, or even a chance at a better weapon with better stats on it.

3. Draft league

This idea was used in Quake more times than I can count on my fingers and toes. Bitey mentioned this briefly on his stream
tonight, and I think it is an awesome idea. Just throw up a league signup page on the Nosgoth site and advertise in game for it.
Pick 8 team captains (obviously the best players in the scene) draw random numbers out of a hat to choose draft order, and then
take the list of signups and have fun with it. Do a live stream as well on twitch of the team picking to hype it even more. Make it a
double elim tournament with group stages and just have fun with it.

4. Spectator mode will open the world to Nosgoth

With a spectator mode comes live commentators. With live commentators comes viewers. With viewers comes hype on the
internet about this awesome new game that is great to watch. It is a no brainer. The thing about e-sports is that people want
to see their favorite team or player play their game at a high level. They want to see the crazy things that those guys are able to
do in real time. This is why twitch has become so popular. I really don't need to explain this.

5. Different Game Modes.

This was brought up on Raziel's stream today. People want variety. We need to mix things up to keep the attention span of new
players and also existing ones. Create a hardpoint mode similar to Titanfall, or a Domination mode similar to Quake Live. Hell,
as stupid as it may sound, do a CTF mode. Anything to mix it up. If it falls flat on its face then scratch the mode, but at least try.
Or try and fix siege mode to be relevant. TDM is nice, but it is just the same thing over and over.

6. Take out region locks.

Region locks do nothing but keep good players in NA not playing good players in EU. Ping really isn't that much of an issue. If it
becomes enough of a whining issue then compromise. Play a round of Vamps and Humans on a NA server, then another round
on a EU server. Tiebreaker goes to whoever has the most total kills at the end of both rounds. By locking the regions you take
away alot of the competition and rivalry between NA and EU. It is only detrimental to the competitive scene. Not to mention it
keeps healthy trash talking going.

7. Demo mode needs to be better.

Noscam is good and all to see the movements of each team and certain strats, but we need a way to see exactly what the player is
seeing with a crosshair and all abilities visible. Basically a true demo. This has been the standard in any of the competitive FPS
games to see player movement/aim/strats. I guess this may fall under spectator mode, but it is kind of separate in a way.

8. Practice Mode?

One thing that I would like to see personally is a way to practice all your abilities on whatever map you want against bots. So for
example, I could just practice air bolas on tyrants in my own little world. Or I could get that mouse sens just right for my scout by
aiming at sentinel bots. Most competitive games have this to fine tune your skills for in game. You guys kind of have it with the
instructional gameplay when you first fire up the game....

9. Or don't do competition at all.....

Finally, if this is not going to work out at all, then maybe wait until final release to implement all of these things. Or I should say
until we have a influx of players that would make all of these suggestions a bit easier. It is just a thought.

I hope that all this information finds a dev or a community manager that can pass it up the right channels. I am kinda glad I found this thread. Some of this stuff has been sitting in my mind for a while, and I wanted to get it out. Thanks for considering any ideas that I or the other posters have jotted down.

cpy_

snejjjj
9th Dec 2014, 09:13
1. Create a ladder system based on skill level.
-> could be an ingame option too
2. Take money out of the equation
-> Yes, and if not: add something for second place
-> Please add esl wire. Prize pools with real money will decoy cheaters. You need one hacker in your team and will win the cup for sure. Ez 200€. Every available hack for nosgoth is vac secure and noscam dont include first person with crosshair, so you are not able to report cheaters in a protest. Ok the playerbase is very small, but i saw hacker ingame in the past.
5. Different Game Modes.
-> For competetive? Not nesessary yet
-> For public/ingame: You should deposit the gamemode you wanna play in your Profil. This placement should observed in the MM-progress. Result: There will be Siege-Mode Games.

Pls add at least a leave-counter on everybodys profil. Or pls reset the w/l, and k/d-ratio on launch.

Saturnity
9th Dec 2014, 09:30
It feels like a funding issue. There's a lot of stuff that needs to get done to support a competitive game and there isn't the manpower to do it.

--Ram--
9th Dec 2014, 09:41
If the game was in an appropriate state with a larger player base then initiating the competitive scene would have been far less frustrating. I understand peoples eagerness to get things going and don't think the ESL games did any harm, but the whole thing was somewhat premature and that was the fundamental cause of the problems encountered.

TDM is a poor gamemode for competitive.

Lack of means to record/cast games properly was a let down.

If an unlocked competition is desired then avoiding the labels "Europe Cup" and "NA Cup" is basic common sense. Call it what it is. Given the lack of players a single unlocked competition may have been better. That said playing on high ping is not very fun.

The community needs to grow before a meaningful competition can take place. Small communities always create problems in terms of the wide range of skill levels being put into a single division or player pool. Doing this means many matches played are not enjoyable for either team. Much of this could be avoided if teams were separated into appropriate skill divisions, but a much larger player base would be required to achieve this.

chriZor
9th Dec 2014, 10:50
In the NA scene People don't show up for competitive matches because and I quote "Its not worth trying".

Sad that the NA-Scene dodged their competition. But that is no problem by region lock.
We dont need to discuss this topic again, specially in a wrong way of "region lock for a smaller community/competition dodge"-imbecility.

11/11/2014 (Tuesday):Tournaments are now region locked once again due to overwhelming feedback from the community. This will be permanent.


Back to topic:
We should not focus on the symtoms, but on the original cause. Maybe its all going to fast for such a small dev-crew, but we need a spectator mode so badly to gain a bigger playerbase for competitive.
As cpy_ said:

With a spectator mode comes live commentators. With live commentators comes viewers. With viewers comes hype on the
internet about this awesome new game that is great to watch. It is a no brainer.

cpy_'s nr9/Raziel-/Bitey-Post:
We act as if the game is already published. Maybe the developers are trying to get the game to run before they specialize. If it's true, the competition is ****ed and way to early - isn't it?
As if you invest as a banker in too many people and no one has success. Or try to download 1gb with a wooden modem.
Game balancing/competition/ESL/public/FORUM?/advertising/New Classes -2/New Matchmaking/Item Crafting/New Gamemodes/Another New Classes -2/More and more new stuff to stay alive in the future/etc
But you would revoke any of these decisions ? That would make a bad reputation-especially for the competition part.



Another point of view:
We should make us be clear by advertising more and more people on a currently "broken" game with a spectator mode or anything else.(I bet we would not always experience a rollback if we are not in the ESL) First of all we need to have a Base in the Game -> MM -> then comes the Beta(open Beta in this case) -> Bigger Playerbase -> and then obviously the Spectator Mode/Competitive.
This should be a normal development of a game.



But...Hopefully our complaints are read and get further pushed everything in between

-chriZ0r


edit:

It feels like a funding issue. There's a lot of stuff that needs to get done to support a competitive game and there isn't the manpower to do it.
+

uNborn-
9th Dec 2014, 19:06
http://forum.eslgaming.com/discussion/1418/revisiting-the-region-lock#latest

BR0sephStalin
9th Dec 2014, 20:18
Why are you frustrated? None of us should be surprised by this. The game simply doesn't have the population to be competitive right now. Let's please revisit this thread: http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=17991

If your problem with the game right now is TDM and how it works, I beg you to go back and read my scoring suggestion. YES, vampires will be forced to engage. That is how TDM is going to work, but that isn't a bad thing if the scoring is changed to explicitly state that. There will be no ambiguity.

I originally posted the suggestion here (4th post): http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=17841
Which was ignored by you.

That said, I agree with you. I don't care if they say it is "closed beta." It isn't. There isn't going to be a wipe, and nearly anybody can play if they spend 20 cents or know somebody with a key (which is everybody).


EDIT: Copying and pasting this from another thread to summarize my TDM scoring thoughts.

"Enforcement of this 3 minute rule is going to be extremely subjective, and smart teams will still be able to stall without roof camping. Problems and controversy are definitely going to arise with the rule. I think even having tourneys early with subjective rulesets like this can be detrimental and lead ESL to believe the game is more hassle than it is worth.

Switch to my modified scoring system: http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=16812
or consider something similar.

Basically a ruleset that only weighs the amount of kills your team gets as a vampires will prevent stalling. My proposed ruleset goes into tiebreakers but that can get complicated."

Double posting so Raz actually sees this post.

Raz, I have as much competitive F2P FPS experience as anybody on these forums. I knew these things were going to be a problem as soon as I saw the ESL announcement. I've played in tourneys and leagues for over 10 F2P FPS games, and have some minor competitive CS experience. Games included are: Combat Arms, Crossfire, Soldier Front, Project Blackout, Offensive Combat, Soldier Front 2, Arctic Combat, Blackshot, America's Army 2, and many many more. Literally ALL of these games experienced the problems you are experiencing.

If you would like to chat on skype or mumble I have some feedback that you would probably benefit from hearing. I know I can be a whiney and obnoxious mofo sometimes, but most of it is because I get frustrated with communities that don't see the things coming that I do.

Aggggh
9th Dec 2014, 20:45
2. Take money out of the equation

So basically remove the money aspect out of the equation completely, orrrrrr you could have 1 major tournament per month with
some serious cash involved. Make it a double elim tournament with group stages to make seeding the teams easier. Still have the
weekly cups, but instead of money use in game content as prizes for the top 3 competitors. Banners, special skins, in game titles,
gold or silver chests for competing. That way people will have incentive to want to play so they can get that special skin for
competing, or that awesome banner that no one else has, or even a chance at a better weapon with better stats on it.



The minute you take money out of the equation in a league for a game as small and under prepared as Nosgoth, it will die hard and fast.

ESL+ SE should have held off until open beta by which point they should have worked through any major issues facing the game and would be benefiting from a player population boost that most games get from obt. I've said this every time a comp thread comes up: the game and the community aren't ready for it yet. This is playing out pretty much exactly as I and plenty of others have said it would.


http://forums.na.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=16808&p=120384#post120384





7. Demo mode needs to be better.

Noscam is good and all to see the movements of each team and certain strats, but we need a way to see exactly what the player is
seeing with a crosshair and all abilities visible. Basically a true demo. This has been the standard in any of the competitive FPS
games to see player movement/aim/strats. I guess this may fall under spectator mode, but it is kind of separate in a way.



Most devs I've asked about this say that it's a lot of work in UE3. It always makes me cringe a little when a UE3 game says they want to be an esports game. Too many devs and publishers underestimate how much work that really entails.

BR0sephStalin
9th Dec 2014, 20:47
The minute you take money out of the equation in a league for a game as small and under prepared as Nosgoth, it will die hard and fast. ESL+ SE should have held off until open beta by which point they should have worked through any major issues facing the game and would be benefiting from a palyer population boost that most games get from obt.

Truth.

Whoopdidoohah
9th Dec 2014, 21:50
Hi Raziel and the rest of people,

When I first saw that Nosgoth was going the ESL tournies with real cash money prizes I thought to myself 'GREAT !' but then I sat down and realised that the game wasn't ready.

1- Unfinished classes, unbalanced abilities, LOTS of useless crappy abilities, basically LOTS of issues on the development and polishing side.

2- Only 1 game mode

3- No spectator mode

4- Not enough playerbase, not enough competitive players, no incentive for competitive players to invest themselves in the game, yet. Sure real cash $$ is appealing, but the game is stale right now. Hunters vs Reavers. Fun (not). I don't think it pushes me towards putting my game face on and form a team of my own for next sunday. I play against the top team and let me tell you my brandly new team wouldn't come close anyway, so what's the point ? Also, before entering any competition in my life I've always PRACTICED a lot. So even before my team signs up I will have to spend time PRACTICING against real competition ideally, not pubs that I rape 30-0 while giggling with a friend on VOIP. There's no segregation of the playerbase, because there's not enough players. So I love this game but like I said I play it casually because all I do is play with a friend or two, join a lobby filled with new / terrible players and just rape them or they leave and we wait 'till more terrible players join etc. Rarely do we encounter any competition in pubs. And that's basically why I'm not serious about competing in this game, yet. Yesterday I played a game against a solo Talespin and he's a great player, probably the best I've seen in Nosgoth, but his team was so terrible it wasn't even funny. That was our biggest pub competition yesterday, a solo Talespin (mind you we were only two anyways). I'm not the best, definitely not the worst though, but I can say I'm hardly getting better slacking off playing against players that don't know how to sentinel (thanks for your efforts at teaching btw), and it's hard to take this game seriously when it puts players like myself and my teammate, with both 450 hours, against lowbies and unskilled players. Eww wall of text.

5- Bugs bugs bugs, clipping geometry, abilities not dealing any damage, pin point accuracy from long range (no projectile), autoaiming melee vamps, etc. Lots of annoying stuff.

6- Healing mechanics, essentially, vampires have a hard time healing vs good humans, humans have it easier with altars. Big imbalance right there. POLISH as I said.



Give it time Raziel, it's too early. When most of the issues are resolved I'll probably be part of a team, I'm starting to be friend with more people, more good players, but right now there's hardly any incentive to form a team up to pub stomp.

Psyonix_Corey
9th Dec 2014, 23:12
I haven't had a chance to watch the full video yet, but a couple quick things:

1. Spectator Mode / Competitive Features:
There is a separate team within Square in charge of these features that also developed Private Match and NosCam, as well as doing things like Localization and other upcoming features. My understanding is that Spectator support is very close to releasable, but it's not integrated into our build yet so I haven't seen the current state of it. I believe there is a plan to cover that team and get them on the forums to interact with you guys, but again that's not under our umbrella so I'm not sure of the timeline.

I get your frustrations about competitive support, but all we can do at Psyonix is pass these threads along to Square-Enix since all of this content and decisions about ESL/esports/etc. are all handled on that side.

2. TDM and Competitive Game Modes
We have been working on a revamp of Siege called "Flashpoint" and other modes that will hopefully offer more competitive viability and variety. But we have been under pressure to hit Open Beta and that means a focus on the Matchmaking rewrite, bug fixing, and new content like the next classes. It's fair to raise your concerns and we can make sure Square reads them, but from a development side we're just strapped for bandwidth. We can't do everything at once and more importantly we aren't given the budget to attempt it.

It will be a lot easier (for the Psyonix team at least) to sit down and really dig into the needs of competitive players from a balance/game mode standpoint once Open Beta ships. We've been so head down grinding trying to hit our deadlines with Square that it's very difficult to give you guys the attention you need. That should have been communicated better and frankly a lot of it is down to what happens when lots of teams are working independently on the same project. One department inside Square decides we need ESL tournaments, another wants Open Beta to launch by X date, another wants a new class out by Y date. No time is left over for replying on forums and making people feel heard. That's a lot of stuff that doesn't solve your concerns, but I just want to be clear that we aren't sitting around laughing off your concerns as irrelevant while we take naps at our desk.

3. Balance for "complainers"
I've seen this in a few threads and I don't think it's a fair criticism. We certainly don't balance based on who complains the loudest or most. We review all feedback and decide whether it fits with our judgment of where the game is at and what needs to change based on our internal playtests and metrics. The last balance patch was almost entirely targeted at high level competitive play (human weapon DPS dominance, Sweeping Kick prevalence, etc.) based on forum threads from competitive players and our own experience. If you want to suggest alternate solutions, threads like Bitey's are welcome, but disagreeing with a specific change doesn't mean we're pandering to one group or another.

Whoopdidoohah
11th Dec 2014, 14:21
So, as I'm reading the other thread on that same topic, 'Revisit region lock', which point to an ESL thread, talking about how 'unfair' it is for NA teams to not be able to compete with EU teams, I was thinking about what was the real root of the problem.

It isn't anything on the devs side primarily, it is all on the community side. It isn't because of the lack of content and game modes, bugs or balance. It is because people feel it's a waste of time to form a team that they KNOW will get raped vs a certain team that stacked all the best players of this very tiny playerbase. You are the source of your own demise. ESL and Nosgoth decided it's not possible to have a fair competition when people are experiencing 100+ pings, and I agree with that. When I lag, when I play on Euro servers in NA daytime, I warp around like crazy and my hits register on people that I'm clearly missing. That rule is completely justified.

So, you stack up your team with the best, and then you complain that you drove away competition ? Game is in closed beta, and like others said, there's no 'reward' for even trying, not even for the 2nd place team, so what did you expect ? That people would man up? That people would keep on bringing the meat to the meat grinder ? People aren't stupid. You have RazielWarmonic on Twitch ranting about anything and everything and not seeing the forest behind the tree she's standing in front of. Take a look at the whole picture.

As a player that's looking into forming my own team and practice with them, I'm very far from even being able to beat that team made of superstar Nosgoth. Perhaps just splitting up your peeps would be a start for the rest of the community to enjoy a more 'equal' battlefield, untill the playerbase grows and more players want to compete.

I was looking at results, I know and play with PSY from time to time and I think they're good above average peeps, well, they're simply not on the same level yet as those guys in the At team. If you want challenge NOW, spread the good players and start forming more equal teams, or keep stacking it up and beg for 'internationnal cup' and keep complaining about not being able to proclaim yourselves champions of the world of Nosgoth beta, which is just completely ridiculous considering the size of the playerbase. In the real world, that is called a PARITY system. In MLB there's no parity system and the teams with deep pockets can basically buy themselves a championship. In the NHL, there is a parity system and there's only so much space to add up superstar players to your roster on a salary cap system.

In the end, you're killing your own competition. Sure you're winning, but not in a good sport fashion. Look, this game is still in beta, it's much like a bunch of dudes playing basketball at the local park, and then you start forming teams and all of a sudden all the best players band together and complain that the people don't want to play against them. WTF. The reason is pretty simple, the fun factor isn't there for everybody else. There's no incentive for even trying. I'm looking at the scores, there's no NA team able to even make At break a sweat. Congratulations, you're the undisputed champions of the 12 people that even care to show up. You, yourself are completely making this competition irrelevant. It's not on the Devs, bugs, balance, whatever, it's you, the 'competitive players', the 'talented players', the 1% cream of the crop, that band together and making it a no show. But I don't blame you, it's human nature, in a free environment without rules enforcement, it's the law of the jungle. But those kinds of system generally fail. Already, Psyonix and ESL decided to add a region lock rule and you have that group driving away the competition trying to remove that rule. Ping dosen't matter. WHAT ? It makes no sense. Look at yourselves in the mirror. Winning at all cost sounds great, but the cost is a steep one. I'm not here to antagonize you, I'm here to discuss the root of the problems. I'm an older dude and been competing in games before internet even existed. This has always been a problem in team games. The best of the best just want to play in the same team and then all of a sudden the community starts shrinking and the teams disband because there's no competition. In a 1v1 game, a good player will only be that much better than other people. But in a team game, if 4 players with stellar rating end up fighting 4 players with respectable rating, the difference at the end of the day is literally quadrupled.

In Nosgoth, I could see a cap for player rating and a segregation of the playerbase into different leagues. For example, max rating is 100 and lower is 1, there would be a no restriction league (where a group like At would simply dominate for a while untill other really talented and dedicated players decide to invest themselves in Nosgoth) , a league for above average players capped at 325, and a league for average players capped at 250, and so and so, untill everyone in the community can have a fair chance of enjoying a competition on their level. A mix of the MMR system and a ladder system for teams.

uNborn-
11th Dec 2014, 18:42
So, as I'm reading the other thread on that same topic, 'Revisit region lock', which point to an ESL thread, talking about how 'unfair' it is for NA teams to not be able to compete with EU teams, I was thinking about what was the real root of the problem.

It isn't anything on the devs side primarily, it is all on the community side. It isn't because of the lack of content and game modes, bugs or balance. It is because people feel it's a waste of time to form a team that they KNOW will get raped vs a certain team that stacked all the best players of this very tiny playerbase. You are the source of your own demise. ESL and Nosgoth decided it's not possible to have a fair competition when people are experiencing 100+ pings, and I agree with that. When I lag, when I play on Euro servers in NA daytime, I warp around like crazy and my hits register on people that I'm clearly missing. That rule is completely justified.

So, you stack up your team with the best, and then you complain that you drove away competition ? Game is in closed beta, and like others said, there's no 'reward' for even trying, not even for the 2nd place team, so what did you expect ? That people would man up? That people would keep on bringing the meat to the meat grinder ? People aren't stupid. You have RazielWarmonic on Twitch ranting about anything and everything and not seeing the forest behind the tree she's standing in front of. Take a look at the whole picture.

As a player that's looking into forming my own team and practice with them, I'm very far from even being able to beat that team made of superstar Nosgoth. Perhaps just splitting up your peeps would be a start for the rest of the community to enjoy a more 'equal' battlefield, untill the playerbase grows and more players want to compete.

I was looking at results, I know and play with PSY from time to time and I think they're good above average peeps, well, they're simply not on the same level yet as those guys in the At team. If you want challenge NOW, spread the good players and start forming more equal teams, or keep stacking it up and beg for 'internationnal cup' and keep complaining about not being able to proclaim yourselves champions of the world of Nosgoth beta, which is just completely ridiculous considering the size of the playerbase. In the real world, that is called a PARITY system. In MLB there's no parity system and the teams with deep pockets can basically buy themselves a championship. In the NHL, there is a parity system and there's only so much space to add up superstar players to your roster on a salary cap system.

In the end, you're killing your own competition. Sure you're winning, but not in a good sport fashion. Look, this game is still in beta, it's much like a bunch of dudes playing basketball at the local park, and then you start forming teams and all of a sudden all the best players band together and complain that the people don't want to play against them. WTF. The reason is pretty simple, the fun factor isn't there for everybody else. There's no incentive for even trying. I'm looking at the scores, there's no NA team able to even make At break a sweat. Congratulations, you're the undisputed champions of the 12 people that even care to show up. You, yourself are completely making this competition irrelevant. It's not on the Devs, bugs, balance, whatever, it's you, the 'competitive players', the 'talented players', the 1% cream of the crop, that band together and making it a no show. But I don't blame you, it's human nature, in a free environment without rules enforcement, it's the law of the jungle. But those kinds of system generally fail. Already, Psyonix and ESL decided to add a region lock rule and you have that group driving away the competition trying to remove that rule. Ping dosen't matter. WHAT ? It makes no sense. Look at yourselves in the mirror. Winning at all cost sounds great, but the cost is a steep one. I'm not here to antagonize you, I'm here to discuss the root of the problems. I'm an older dude and been competing in games before internet even existed. This has always been a problem in team games. The best of the best just want to play in the same team and then all of a sudden the community starts shrinking and the teams disband because there's no competition. In a 1v1 game, a good player will only be that much better than other people. But in a team game, if 4 players with stellar rating end up fighting 4 players with respectable rating, the difference at the end of the day is literally quadrupled.

In Nosgoth, I could see a cap for player rating and a segregation of the playerbase into different leagues. For example, max rating is 100 and lower is 1, there would be a no restriction league (where a group like At would simply dominate for a while untill other really talented and dedicated players decide to invest themselves in Nosgoth) , a league for above average players capped at 325, and a league for average players capped at 250, and so and so, untill everyone in the community can have a fair chance of enjoying a competition on their level. A mix of the MMR system and a ladder system for teams.

That was a wonderful Essay.

Cliff notes version- It's my team fault that no one wants to compete in Nosgoth anymore and we should be split up to make things more equal.

My team (AT) formed because we had two incomplete teams before. Both teams had inactive players and didn't want to(or simply couldn't) put time into the game to take it to the next level,So we merged. Am I supposed to apologize for wanting to literally trailblaze the meta in this game with 3 other like minded individuals? Were not Gods of the game or something. There is a lot of competitive FPS experience on this roster yes, but I fail to see how it is our fault that no one wants to put the time in (LIKE WE DO) to form strategies etc. If anything wouldn't it make them want to put that much MORE time into working on positioning and set strats .Look at bitey's team for example. There is a ton of fps experience and skill on that roster, they just historically expect they can just pub their way to victory in every game, and when it doesn't happen the ego gets bruised and then they start blaming each other for the loss. I've watched the vod's. Its a complete and utter unorganized mess. This is not me calling them out. Just as always, being very very blunt about the state of this game currently. This game, like all games is VERY different competitively than it is publicly. Losing is frustrating. I understand that, But competitive players use it as motivation to fine tune their game and become better players themselves, OR they just don't and complain bitterly and blame everything else but themselves. Keep in mind Im using Unity Diversity Freedom as an example solely because they are very skilled players who just don't seem to be clicking yet.

I know what you're thinking, you're like " wait unborn are you really saying what I think your saying? that in order to play a team game you have to play as a team and not just a group of players doing their own thing?"What a shocking development.


So no. I'm not going to apologize and entertain the idea that the blame for the inactivity and despair on the NA side resides soley with my team for being " too Good" That's just a ridiculous statement conjured up by people who just plain don't want to accept the truth That it doesn't matter how much skill you have on a roster, If you don't play as a team there is no chance of winning vs a group of similar skilled players who work together and push the envelope evolving new complex strategies for team synergy.


Also I want to point out that your EU region lock points are ridiculous. I ping 108 to EU servers and around 90 to US west. How is that a advantage. You say that congratulations we are the champions of 12 people who decide to show up? That's what we are trying to remedy. We WANT to play more. We WANT to to play the best this game has to offer. And above all. We want this game to survive. You talk about no incentive for yourself or others to even try, well if you actually read that thread on ESL there are plenty of great ideas to help. A international league with cash prizes for 1st AND second and then in game currency prizes/skins for 3rd place and below. If and when the game gets enough teams and traffic then they can lock the regions and even create Invite or Premier divisions to separate the level of skill and create an enviroment conducive for teams to grow within their own skill pool. We are not even close to this yet and it sucks having the community separate for the time being. Competition is competition and we need more of it, not less of it. Stop making excuses.

Aggggh
11th Dec 2014, 19:11
-snip-
Eh, think you're valuing yourself a little too highly. No one wants to compete in Nosgoth because it's an unproven IP, is missing a lot of basic features and has a tiny community. Community drama has very little to do with it. I know people who have genuinely been enjoying the game but would rather spend their time competing in games with actual competitive support and community. Cash prizes only go so far to foster a competitive team when community and publisher support is lacking. Every game faces these challenges when trying to start a comp scene and Nosgoth just isn't ready to meet them at this moment.

uNborn-
11th Dec 2014, 19:44
Eh, think you're valuing yourself a little too highly. No one wants to compete in Nosgoth because it's an unproven IP, is missing a lot of basic features and has a tiny community. Community drama has very little to do with it. I know people who have genuinely been enjoying the game but would rather spend their time competing in games with actual competitive support and community. Cash prizes only go so far to foster a competitive team when community and publisher support is lacking. Every game faces these challenges when trying to start a comp scene and Nosgoth just isn't ready to meet them at this moment.


I wasn't over valuing myself at all. Reading comprehension is tough apparently. I said the main difference is effort and time spent developing team synergy and strategies instead of playing it like a pub. So what are you suggesting for the players who like this game and want to compete in it? As broken and new as this game is, it has potential and is a very fun game to play, which is why we are all here spending the time on this forum in the first place. I agree Nosgoth is not without its issues and needs more support and its basic issues addressed. Hopefully it will all come to a head sooner rather than later.

Whoopdidoohah
11th Dec 2014, 20:26
That was a wonderful Essay.

Cliff notes version- It's my team fault that no one wants to compete in Nosgoth anymore and we should be split up to make things more equal.

My team (AT) formed because we had two incomplete teams before. Both teams had inactive players and didn't want to(or simply couldn't) put time into the game to take it to the next level,So we merged. Am I supposed to apologize for wanting to literally trailblaze the meta in this game with 3 other like minded individuals? Were not Gods of the game or something. There is a lot of competitive FPS experience on this roster yes, but I fail to see how it is our fault that no one wants to put the time in (LIKE WE DO) to form strategies etc. If anything wouldn't it make them want to put that much MORE time into working on positioning and set strats .Look at bitey's team for example. There is a ton of fps experience and skill on that roster, they just historically expect they can just pub their way to victory in every game, and when it doesn't happen the ego gets bruised and then they start blaming each other for the loss. I've watched the vod's. Its a complete and utter unorganized mess. This is not me calling them out. Just as always, being very very blunt about the state of this game currently. This game, like all games is VERY different competitively than it is publicly. Losing is frustrating. I understand that, But competitive players use it as motivation to fine tune their game and become better players themselves, OR they just don't and complain bitterly and blame everything else but themselves. Keep in mind Im using Unity Diversity Freedom as an example solely because they are very skilled players who just don't seem to be clicking yet.

I know what you're thinking, you're like " wait unborn are you really saying what I think your saying? that in order to play a team game you have to play as a team and not just a group of players doing their own thing?"What a shocking development.


So no. I'm not going to apologize and entertain the idea that the blame for the inactivity and despair on the NA side resides soley with my team for being " too Good" That's just a ridiculous statement conjured up by people who just plain don't want to accept the truth That it doesn't matter how much skill you have on a roster, If you don't play as a team there is no chance of winning vs a group of similar skilled players who work together and push the envelope evolving new complex strategies for team synergy.


Also I want to point out that your EU region lock points are ridiculous. I ping 108 to EU servers and around 90 to US west. How is that a advantage. You say that congratulations we are the champions of 12 people who decide to show up? That's what we are trying to remedy. We WANT to play more. We WANT to to play the best this game has to offer. And above all. We want this game to survive. You talk about no incentive for yourself or others to even try, well if you actually read that thread on ESL there are plenty of great ideas to help. A international league with cash prizes for 1st AND second and then in game currency prizes/skins for 3rd place and below. If and when the game gets enough teams and traffic then they can lock the regions and even create Invite or Premier divisions to separate the level of skill and create an enviroment conducive for teams to grow within their own skill pool. We are not even close to this yet and it sucks having the community separate for the time being. Competition is competition and we need more of it, not less of it. Stop making excuses.

About your conclusion of my post, it's not exactly your team's fault. It's the fact that there's not enough population and that the 1% best players are not numerous enough to compete with your team. I know I'm not even part of that 1% yet, probably in the 5% best players though. Will get to it eventually, but in the meantime, my friends and I aren't suitable competition for you and your team. I was responding to your rant that they should remove zone locks so that you could compete in the EU cup, because no one shows up in the NA cup. Well, if no one shows up, perhaps stacking up all the best in one team isn't good for the closed beta community. Think about it a second, and stop blaming everyone else because they're not as dedicated as your bunch are. You're in the 1% of not even a couple thousands players. Not enough of those players in that league. This is solely a closed beta symptom. Stacking up all the best players of a very tiny population is very close to my 'allstar team at the local park' analogy. Nobody wants to deal with that ****. Sorry. This game isn't ready for ESL, it's pretty evident. Yes your team is toog od and drove players away, that's the harsh truth, sorry. But the reason why it's happening like that is because ONLY 12 players signed up for it anyways. If there was 24 teams, and then next week, 21 teams showed up, not a big deal. But when there's only 3 teams showing up, and then next week only 1, whoopdidoo. Good initiative Raziel and co, but this is premature, to say the least. Or, region locks are premature, but that brings up a whole other issue, PING. IMO it's not a dismissable problem.

My temporary solution was for you to break up and compete with each others, untill more teams join the parade. There you can find your competition, untill the population grows.

My long term solution was to create different brackets or leagues in which every kind of Nosgoth players could compete with similar skilled players. Of course this needs more population. Lets me give you the state of the game right now, this afternoon, 367 players. 367. 367. That's terribly low. The competition you ask is unsustainable, right now.

By experience, when my ping is 100 + I feel like the game becomes sluggish and unresponsive enough to call it a 'non-competitive environment'. That's my opinion and it's disputable, but at same time I'm able to play on EU servers and still have a lot of fun, it's just that sometimes weird stuff happen. IMO the region locks will be ok when there will be enough people, perhaps they can remove them in the present state of the game, I don't know. As I said before they should just postpone the ESL untill open beta, because right now it's obviously not working as intended. It's too soon. 367 concurrent players right now. Ewwww.

Petire
11th Dec 2014, 20:48
I am just going to be straight to the point and honest. Currently besides a very small group of players in NA, including but not limited to AT. There are no players or teams that want to get better, they just simply want to win. You cannot grow better playing against players who are at your skill level or below that level. While I agree it can be frustrating playing and losing over and over again against teams who are either way above your skill level or teams who have been playing together for much longer and have more strategies. But you have to remember that is the best way to get better, as long as you take it the correct way and you are able to grow from the losses.

cmstache
11th Dec 2014, 21:02
Without getting too much into detail, in all fairness it's still a pain in the butt to even organize a team. You can't really practice together, unless it's a custom game, which has it's own bugs. And the ESL league didn't give people a whole lot of time to communicate and organize before it all started. I'm sure I'm not the only person on the list who didn't participate due to a long list or reasons, none of which we "we can't win." Personally, am I the best player around? No. Would my team win? Probably not, but we'd make them work for it if nothing else.


To keep it short, without going into an essay: There are players who would step up. But, there are a lot of factors that just aren't there yet. Do I think the ping rule should apply? Yes. Do I think that people don't play if they don't think they can win? Absolutely. As a competitive person myself do I think the winning teams are ruining it for others? No. That's the nature of competition. However, I do know a LOT of people who aren't competing just purely because of people's attitudes of the whole situation. There are a lot of pieces that still need to be filled in before the community itself is read, much less the game.

uNborn-
11th Dec 2014, 21:16
I am just going to be straight to the point and honest. Currently besides a very small group of players in NA, including but not limited to AT. There are no players or teams that want to get better, they just simply want to win. You cannot grow better playing against players who are at your skill level or below that level. While I agree it can be frustrating playing and losing over and over again against teams who are either way above your skill level or teams who have been playing together for much longer and have more strategies. But you have to remember that is the best way to get better, as long as you take it the correct way and you are able to grow from the losses.


----

fpsDaveChappelle
11th Dec 2014, 21:41
(StoopCrime, member of team At)
I agree with what Petire said. The existing teams who generally sign up for the NA cups aside from our own most definitely have the potential to give us great competition. Here's the problem: we ONLY ever play against them when a tournament comes around. That is most certainly not our fault or intention. If we wanted to win so bad, we would just sit back and let the other teams practice among themselves and never improve to an extent that they could match us. That is not the case, when we first joined together we asked all of these teams to scrim almost every single day. Not only did they almost never scrim us or even ASK to scrim us, they would actually scrim against each other whenever they had a chance instead. Yes, scrimming against evenly matched or slightly undermatched opponents is good for team morale and practicing the "basic mechanics". But you can only learn so much from playing an evenly matched team when there exists a team who will punish you for every mistake, why not practice your "basics" against such a team instead of a team that may allow you to get away with things that you otherwise wouldn't have against us or a better team?

Since we've been trying to get scrims with the other NA teams we've only been able to actually play against them once or maybe twice, so we've given up on even asking them. Instead, we ask Immortal to scrim. They are a team that, despite never having beaten us in a scrim, will willingly play against us knowing that they are outmatched simply to improve themselves and as a result have come quite close to beating us a few times. They are willing to sit down and scrim against us on multiple maps in a row despite everything just to improve and challenge themselves as a team.

The biggest reason we're trying to get the region locks lifted is because of the differences of the mentalities when it comes to the existing teams in NA vs those in EU. Even despite some deep-rooted squabbles that have occurred between some of our players, we've set up scrims against DeadSun as well, even THAT isn't stopping them from wanting to scrim us and get better. The only conceivable reason (at least to me) for the NA teams not wanting to even SCRIM us and get better is because they don't want to lose, as Petire said, in order to preserve team morale or whatever other irrelevant rationalizations they've come up with.

THIS is one of the main reasons that the NA scene is failing (and NOT the EU scene, mind you), not because of a lack of the number of teams or motivation to get better. If the only time that they play against us is during the weekend cups, then of course they will never be able to match us.

As for the whole ping situation/factor. Although I personally disagree that pings of 100-150 have a huge impact on gameplay, we could always implement a rule like this: each matchup plays a game on each server, then the team who has the WORSE combined score out of those 2 games gets to choose the server for the 3rd and final match. This way it's literally an even playing field and actually gives the home-server "advantage" to the losing team in order to erase "ping advantage" as a factor. Ideas like these have already been thrown around in the ESL forum threads.

FireWorks_
11th Dec 2014, 21:50
In bitey's comp feedback this thread is already a post of a veteran quake etc admin. Lots of empiric prooven concepts. It should be written in gold letter on stone plates blablabla...

One point: Some kind of Captain's draft. Get the best players around as team captains and fill their teams with non elites. Lots of fun guaranteed for all skill levels and broad fan base.

(Sorry I cant be bothered to dig out the post but maybe someone wants to pick it up and quote it here for a constructive discussion instead of the blame game.)


Hi,

First off I would like to take the same stance as Raziel about how much I love this game. I never thought I would enjoy this game as much as I do.

Now, just a little background on myself before I start throwing around suggestions blindly and criticizing certain things. I have been a admin for Quake 3,4, and live since 2004 in some form or another. I have worked with events/leagues such as ESL, Quakecon (since 05), and I was lead Quake 3 admin at the ESWC World Final in San Jose in 2008. I have worked closely with id software devs on map balancing, weapon balancing, and basic gameplay changes to make their new releases run fairly and smoothly. I was also a professional Quake 4 player in 2007 competing on the WSVG circuit, and I was also a professional Quake Live CTF player in 2009.

So now that that is out of the way, I have been a tester for many alphas and betas as well. Based on my short time here (Aug. 25th I started playing) I have had a complete blast playing and learning the finer points of this game. The potential is there for it to be an extremely fun and entertaining title to play and watch. The people I have met playing this game are genuinely awesome people. Especially the very small competitive group of players that are out there.

So, competitive play and my thoughts...... There are a few things that I want to address on this front. Raziel was talking about one team dominating every week therefore causing others to feel like there is no point in even playing. There are a few ways to fix this problem that have been used so many times before across many other games.

1. Create a ladder system based on skill level.

This method is similar to leagues like OGL back in the day where one team challenges a team ahead of the other team in the
rankings to move up if they win. At the end of the "season" the top 4 teams in the ladder play each other for the "season"
championship. This is also a good way to scrim and practice teamwork with a purpose. Examples would be similar to CAL - I for
Counter Strike. The only issue I see with this model is the amount of teams/players available during closed beta to do this. Is
the community big enough to support a ladder system???

2. Take money out of the equation

So basically remove the money aspect out of the equation completely, orrrrrr you could have 1 major tournament per month with
some serious cash involved. Make it a double elim tournament with group stages to make seeding the teams easier. Still have the
weekly cups, but instead of money use in game content as prizes for the top 3 competitors. Banners, special skins, in game titles,
gold or silver chests for competing. That way people will have incentive to want to play so they can get that special skin for
competing, or that awesome banner that no one else has, or even a chance at a better weapon with better stats on it.

3. Draft league

This idea was used in Quake more times than I can count on my fingers and toes. Bitey mentioned this briefly on his stream tonight, and I think it is an awesome idea. Just throw up a league signup page on the Nosgoth site and advertise in game for it. Pick 8 team captains (obviously the best players in the scene) draw random numbers out of a hat to choose draft order, and then take the list of signups and have fun with it. Do a live stream as well on twitch of the team picking to hype it even more. Make it a double elim tournament with group stages and just have fun with it.

4. Spectator mode will open the world to Nosgoth

With a spectator mode comes live commentators. With live commentators comes viewers. With viewers comes hype on the
internet about this awesome new game that is great to watch. It is a no brainer. The thing about e-sports is that people want
to see their favorite team or player play their game at a high level. They want to see the crazy things that those guys are able to
do in real time. This is why twitch has become so popular. I really don't need to explain this.

5. Different Game Modes.

This was brought up on Raziel's stream today. People want variety. We need to mix things up to keep the attention span of new
players and also existing ones. Create a hardpoint mode similar to Titanfall, or a Domination mode similar to Quake Live. Hell,
as stupid as it may sound, do a CTF mode. Anything to mix it up. If it falls flat on its face then scratch the mode, but at least try.
Or try and fix siege mode to be relevant. TDM is nice, but it is just the same thing over and over.

6. Take out region locks.

Region locks do nothing but keep good players in NA not playing good players in EU. Ping really isn't that much of an issue. If it
becomes enough of a whining issue then compromise. Play a round of Vamps and Humans on a NA server, then another round
on a EU server. Tiebreaker goes to whoever has the most total kills at the end of both rounds. By locking the regions you take
away alot of the competition and rivalry between NA and EU. It is only detrimental to the competitive scene. Not to mention it
keeps healthy trash talking going.

7. Demo mode needs to be better.

Noscam is good and all to see the movements of each team and certain strats, but we need a way to see exactly what the player is
seeing with a crosshair and all abilities visible. Basically a true demo. This has been the standard in any of the competitive FPS
games to see player movement/aim/strats. I guess this may fall under spectator mode, but it is kind of separate in a way.

8. Practice Mode?

One thing that I would like to see personally is a way to practice all your abilities on whatever map you want against bots. So for
example, I could just practice air bolas on tyrants in my own little world. Or I could get that mouse sens just right for my scout by
aiming at sentinel bots. Most competitive games have this to fine tune your skills for in game. You guys kind of have it with the
instructional gameplay when you first fire up the game....

9. Or don't do competition at all.....

Finally, if this is not going to work out at all, then maybe wait until final release to implement all of these things. Or I should say
until we have a influx of players that would make all of these suggestions a bit easier. It is just a thought.

I hope that all this information finds a dev or a community manager that can pass it up the right channels. I am kinda glad I found this thread. Some of this stuff has been sitting in my mind for a while, and I wanted to get it out. Thanks for considering any ideas that I or the other posters have jotted down.

cpy_

Sanguise23
11th Dec 2014, 22:00
winning is not important to me a good match is. I would love to play in ESL however i cannot commit to any kinda time frame with a sick wife and really busy career. Probably fine for everyone cause im only average.

BR0sephStalin
13th Dec 2014, 04:38
(StoopCrime, member of team At)
I agree with what Petire said. The existing teams who generally sign up for the NA cups aside from our own most definitely have the potential to give us great competition. Here's the problem: we ONLY ever play against them when a tournament comes around. That is most certainly not our fault or intention. If we wanted to win so bad, we would just sit back and let the other teams practice among themselves and never improve to an extent that they could match us. That is not the case, when we first joined together we asked all of these teams to scrim almost every single day. Not only did they almost never scrim us or even ASK to scrim us, they would actually scrim against each other whenever they had a chance instead. Yes, scrimming against evenly matched or slightly undermatched opponents is good for team morale and practicing the "basic mechanics". But you can only learn so much from playing an evenly matched team when there exists a team who will punish you for every mistake, why not practice your "basics" against such a team instead of a team that may allow you to get away with things that you otherwise wouldn't have against us or a better team?

Since we've been trying to get scrims with the other NA teams we've only been able to actually play against them once or maybe twice, so we've given up on even asking them. Instead, we ask Immortal to scrim. They are a team that, despite never having beaten us in a scrim, will willingly play against us knowing that they are outmatched simply to improve themselves and as a result have come quite close to beating us a few times. They are willing to sit down and scrim against us on multiple maps in a row despite everything just to improve and challenge themselves as a team.

The biggest reason we're trying to get the region locks lifted is because of the differences of the mentalities when it comes to the existing teams in NA vs those in EU. Even despite some deep-rooted squabbles that have occurred between some of our players, we've set up scrims against DeadSun as well, even THAT isn't stopping them from wanting to scrim us and get better. The only conceivable reason (at least to me) for the NA teams not wanting to even SCRIM us and get better is because they don't want to lose, as Petire said, in order to preserve team morale or whatever other irrelevant rationalizations they've come up with.

THIS is one of the main reasons that the NA scene is failing (and NOT the EU scene, mind you), not because of a lack of the number of teams or motivation to get better. If the only time that they play against us is during the weekend cups, then of course they will never be able to match us.

As for the whole ping situation/factor. Although I personally disagree that pings of 100-150 have a huge impact on gameplay, we could always implement a rule like this: each matchup plays a game on each server, then the team who has the WORSE combined score out of those 2 games gets to choose the server for the 3rd and final match. This way it's literally an even playing field and actually gives the home-server "advantage" to the losing team in order to erase "ping advantage" as a factor. Ideas like these have already been thrown around in the ESL forum threads.

I disagree almost entirely. NA simply doesn't have the quantity needed right now. I don't really know who you guys think is blaming you for the small amount of competition NA is having. I think you guys are struggling to find NA scrims because there are very few players that actually want to play competitively. The reason for that isn't because they feel like they are going to lose so there is no point. It's just because the NA scene is pretty casual right now. The game doesn't have the population or the infrastructure to support the comp scene right now IMO (like aggggh suggested).

Furthermore, a lot of players love scrimming and playing in tourneys/leagues simply for the learning experience. I don't think it is fair to blame the current teams that have actually participated for the lack of success in NA.

Guys, lets not forget that this game is still technically in closed beta. Trying to implement serious cash tourneys in a game that admits itself is seriously flawed and unfinished (the definition of beta) is just a bad idea. Cash tourneys for Nosgoth were severely premature, and that is probably going to have a long lasting negative impact on the game.

EDIT:
1. There are probably players in NA who don't want to play in the tourney because they know they can't win. I'm not denying that, but suggesting that is the reason most people aren't (or even a significant portion) is ridiculous. You don't know what people are thinking because you are not inside their heads.

2. There are very few players in the game who even have the potential ability to ever beat team At. Let's stop acting like scrimming you would actually benefit that many teams. There are MAYBE 10 NA players that are even remotely capable of rivaling the raw skill team At has right now. When an ESEA-Open team scrims an Invite team they will learn almost nothing. The skill gap is simply too large. That isn't to say they shouldn't do it. Playing competitively is hella fun for me, win or lose. I just hate this mentality that is being thrown around that is "players are too scared to scrim us so they are never going to get better." Most of the NA competitive players will actually benefit more from pubbing than scrimming you. It is simple mechanics the vast majority of players are behind team At on. Mechanics can be improved upon playing decent players, not solely great ones. Once their mechanical skill is more in line with yours then they will start to benefit more from scrimming you.

PencileyePirate
13th Dec 2014, 05:02
I disagree almost entirely. NA simply doesn't have the quantity needed right now. I don't really know who you guys think is blaming you for the small amount of competition NA is having. I think you guys are struggling to find NA scrims because there are very few players that actually want to play competitively. The reason for that isn't because they feel like they are going to lose so there is no point. It's just because the NA scene is pretty casual right now. The game doesn't have the population or the infrastructure to support the comp scene right now IMO (like aggggh suggested).

Furthermore, a lot of players love scrimming and playing in tourneys/leagues simply for the learning experience. I don't think it is fair to blame the current teams that have actually participated for the lack of success in NA.

Guys, lets not forget that this game is still technically in closed beta. Trying to implement serious cash tourneys in a game that admits itself is seriously flawed and unfinished (the definition of beta) is just a bad idea. Cash tourneys for Nosgoth were severely premature, and that is probably going to have a long lasting negative impact on the game.

110% agree with this. Region locks and a lack of regular scrims are smaller symptoms of the real issue (low player population.) IMO the game needs to improve/fix a number of things and a successful open beta launch to improve the situation.

Aggggh
13th Dec 2014, 14:56
I wasn't over valuing myself at all. Reading comprehension is tough apparently. I said the main difference is effort and time spent developing team synergy and strategies instead of playing it like a pub. So what are you suggesting for the players who like this game and want to compete in it? As broken and new as this game is, it has potential and is a very fun game to play, which is why we are all here spending the time on this forum in the first place. I agree Nosgoth is not without its issues and needs more support and its basic issues addressed. Hopefully it will all come to a head sooner rather than later.

The fact that you're making the assumption that there is a significant number of teams that are interested in Nosgoth kind of proves you're overvaluing yourselves. When you can't even get 16 teams to come and play, it's not a problem of a team scaring people off. Plenty of competitive scenes have dominant teams and still get piles of teams to come and compete. This is largely an issue of a general lack of interest in the game.



As for the whole ping situation/factor. Although I personally disagree that pings of 100-150 have a huge impact on gameplay, we could always implement a rule like this: each matchup plays a game on each server, then the team who has the WORSE combined score out of those 2 games gets to choose the server for the 3rd and final match. This way it's literally an even playing field and actually gives the home-server "advantage" to the losing team in order to erase "ping advantage" as a factor. Ideas like these have already been thrown around in the ESL forum threads.

Looool? Then you'll have no problem playing on EU servers against EU teams, I take it? Iirc ESL as a general rule always chooses EU servers in a match between EU and NA players. If it's not an issue, you wouldn't be suggesting changing servers between games. Oh and good luck to west coast players trying to get 150 ping on a EU servers lol.

Talespin
13th Dec 2014, 18:27
Looool? Then you'll have no problem playing on EU servers against EU teams, I take it? Iirc ESL as a general rule always chooses EU servers in a match between EU and NA players. If it's not an issue, you wouldn't be suggesting changing servers between games. Oh and good luck to west coast players trying to get 150 ping on a EU servers lol.

http://play.eslgaming.com/nosgoth/global/nosgoth/major/closed-beta-cup-series-eu/cup-1/rankings/

Both teams in the finals were NA teams after being all the EU teams on EU servers, so no, it's not an issue playing on EU servers. But a global tournament should have more fair server rules than a strictly EU tournament.

P.S. I'm west coast.

fpsDaveChappelle
13th Dec 2014, 19:01
I disagree almost entirely. NA simply doesn't have the quantity needed right now. I don't really know who you guys think is blaming you for the small amount of competition NA is having. I think you guys are struggling to find NA scrims because there are very few players that actually want to play competitively. The reason for that isn't because they feel like they are going to lose so there is no point. It's just because the NA scene is pretty casual right now. The game doesn't have the population or the infrastructure to support the comp scene right now IMO (like aggggh suggested).

I know that there aren't that many NA players looking to play competitively, that entire post was directed ONLY at the teams who had participated in tournies (int, UDF, PSY, etc.) and I know that sometimes they couldn't play because of other reasons (busy schedules etc.), but these are teams who have multiple players with HUNDREDS of hours in Nosgoth so I don't think a lack of mechanical skill is the issue. I would have no problem with having only 4-5 teams in NA to play in the tournies, and that used to be the case. As for the part about people thinking that we are the reason that the NA scene is dead, that part was mostly directed towards Whoopya (who posted about it earlier) and others who have implied the same.And yes, I agree that this game really isn't ready for comp play, but ESL and comp play are here and the points I made still stand.


Looool? Then you'll have no problem playing on EU servers against EU teams, I take it? Iirc ESL as a general rule always chooses EU servers in a match between EU and NA players. If it's not an issue, you wouldn't be suggesting changing servers between games. Oh and good luck to west coast players trying to get 150 ping on a EU servers lol.

Yes. You are 100% correct. We have absolutely NO problem playing on EU servers, even with our west coast player. That rule was suggested for the EU teams who were claiming that having high ping has some sort of advantage, not for us. If you had taken the time to find the context or had any idea about what's going on in the ESL forums regarding this issue you would already know this instead of making assumptions of your own.

BR0sephStalin
13th Dec 2014, 19:52
I know that there aren't that many NA players looking to play competitively, that entire post was directed ONLY at the teams who had participated in tournies (int, UDF, PSY, etc.) and I know that sometimes they couldn't play because of other reasons (busy schedules etc.), but these are teams who have multiple players with HUNDREDS of hours in Nosgoth so I don't think a lack of mechanical skill is the issue. I would have no problem with having only 4-5 teams in NA to play in the tournies, and that used to be the case. As for the part about people thinking that we are the reason that the NA scene is dead, that part was mostly directed towards Whoopya (who posted about it earlier) and others who have implied the same.And yes, I agree that this game really isn't ready for comp play, but ESL and comp play are here and the points I made still stand.

I'm not talking about the mechanical skill you get from playing 300 hours of Nosgoth. I'm talking about the skill you get from thousands of hours of shooters over 5-10+ years, and the reactions that not many players are born with to begin with. From what I know (correct me if I'm wrong) most of team At have extensive competitive FPS/TPS comp experience. Your guys aim alone will win you games from what I've seen. Learning strats from scrimming won't do much if your guys team could win games without any communication at all.

fpsDaveChappelle
13th Dec 2014, 20:20
Yeah I suppose you're right on that one, I'm the only one without competitive FPS experience (at least nothing significant). But there actually is also a ton of FPS experience on a few of the other NA teams, UDF and Int in particular. As for the rest of the community, probably not so much. I know you're just trying to make a point with this, but I don't think we'd be able to win our games without any communication at all. Our coordination and comms are key to doing well in a game like Nosgoth, especially when it comes to playing vampires and how we use our abilities on human.

Although, like I said, I wouldn't mind only playing 4-5 teams in the NA cups since that's probably the highest amount that the NA scene has to offer in terms of serious competitive play for ESL, but for various reasons (some of which I have listed in my other post) they have given up and that is why we want to propose a combination of the EU and NA regions in the ESL. We'd be able to combine the prize pools to have 1st, 2nd and 3rd prizes each week/month instead of a 1st place prize for either Immortal or DeadSun and a 1st place prize for At as well as possibly give Runestone prizes for other high placers in the tournies. I go over a lot of the advantages to this in my post on the ESL forums (http://forum.eslgaming.com/discussion/1418/revisiting-the-region-lock#latest) and we could implement a rule like the one I proposed in my original post in case ping is seen as an issue (which I personally don't believe is a huge factor in the gameplay, high ping is experienced in most games and is very easy to mentally compensate for in this game).

FireWorks_
13th Dec 2014, 20:22
I'm not talking about the mechanical skill you get from playing 300 hours of Nosgoth. I'm talking about the skill you get from thousands of hours of shooters over 5-10+ years, and the reactions that not many players are born with to begin with. From what I know (correct me if I'm wrong) most of team At have extensive competitive FPS/TPS comp experience. Your guys aim alone will win you games from what I've seen. Learning strats from scrimming won't do much if your guys team could win games without any communication at all.

I know hubris/At players back from ETQW and other Splash Damage titels over the last decade. It was nice to see the guys in a scrim again but after 2 matches I knew Id never want to do a cross continent game again. It is just not fun to have high pingers warping in your face and getting hit notifications the moment you already melted away.


What wonders me the most is that normally any semi pro would be the first to ***** about "netcode" but the desperation to get anybody into a match seems too big.


EDIT: Please dont forget that being a pubhero does not make anyone a skilled teamplayer. Communication is a key element and many lone wolves take a good while to learn that or never do.

BR0sephStalin
13th Dec 2014, 21:14
I know hubris/At players back from ETQW and other Splash Damage titels over the last decade. It was nice to see the guys in a scrim again but after 2 matches I knew Id never want to do a cross continent game again. It is just not fun to have high pingers warping in your face and getting hit notifications the moment you already melted away.


What wonders me the most is that normally any semi pro would be the first to ***** about "netcode" but the desperation to get anybody into a match seems too big.


EDIT: Please dont forget that being a pubhero does not make anyone a skilled teamplayer. Communication is a key element and many lone wolves take a good while to learn that or never do.

1. The desperation for games wouldn't be there if ESL held off on Nosgoth until the game was ready.
2. True, but let's be honest, the two are far from mutually exclusive, ESPECIALLY in a game like Nosgoth. To be a pub hero in this game you still need to use teamwork or you are going to be a pubzero. Regardless, the biggest pubhero's in this game are still members of team At. Let's not try to act like anybody in the game is better than them right now because there aren't any. Take the next 5 best players right now (NA or EU) and put them up against At right now and they still don't stand a chance.

Again, I would love people to scrim often in Nosgoth. Scrims are fun, and you can certainly learn things from them. I'm just saying we shouldn't act like teams aren't closing the gap simply because they aren't willing to scrim. There are other factors at play here that are a much bigger deal.

FireWorks_
13th Dec 2014, 21:26
1. The desperation for games wouldn't be there if ESL held off on Nosgoth until the game was ready.
2. True, but let's be honest, the two are far from mutually exclusive, ESPECIALLY in a game like Nosgoth. To be a pub hero in this game you still need to use teamwork or you are going to be a pubzero. Regardless, the biggest pubhero's in this game are still members of team At. Let's not try to act like anybody in the game is better than them right now because there aren't any. Take the next 5 best players right now (NA or EU) and put them up against At right now and they still don't stand a chance.

Again, I would love people to scrim often in Nosgoth. Scrims are fun, and you can certainly learn things from them. I'm just saying we shouldn't act like teams aren't closing the gap simply because they aren't willing to scrim. There are other factors at play here that are a much bigger deal.

Yep, you summed it up pretty well.

uNborn-
13th Dec 2014, 22:23
ESL admins tested 150 pings on both servers and noticed ZERO warping. That being irrelevent because I myself ping 108 to EU servers anyway. The amount of excuses going around are baffling, and I expect these to continue after the open beta release. Were available to scrim pretty much anytime throughout the week and instead teams are stacking pubs to "work on mechanics" and testing their team prowess against pubbies who can barely navigate the map and have no comms. Great plan. OH and these are the same people with ideas about balancing and game mechanics? Cool Story.

ceppy_
14th Dec 2014, 19:48
Bottom line is still that if you don't play players/teams that are better than you you aren't going to acquire the skills past basic mechanics to beat those players/teams. One of the things that pro players do constantly when they aren't practicing is watching demos of other players. So even when they are not playing top echelon players/teams they are watching their every move on each map. Which brings me to how important demos and spectator mode are for competitive play. I am pretty good friends with Rapha, Cl0ck, Fatal1ty, Cypher, Cooler, and other pro Quake players and they will all tell you the same thing. Learning your opponents every movement and decision on each map against other opponents will make you prepared for what they are going to do once they play you. Once you can predict their movements and decisions then it comes down to the basic concept of aim. It also forces your opponent(s) to change up what their normal strat is, and to do something totally unpredictable when it is time to play you because they know you have been studying their game. It creates some interesting matches.

Calderweiss
20th Dec 2014, 19:26
Really? I've gotten tons better by playing organized matches against players that can kick my ass. If anything, playing too many pub matches without time for organized play has made me develop some bad habits that show when I go against a team.

Now, I do agree that there are still a lot of players who could use pubs to improve mechanically, but a lot of those players are also without a team and have made no effort to be in one. Mainly because they're just on to have fun, since it's still in closed beta, and are waiting for their IRL friends to join them when it hits open beta (although we now have friend referral links, which is very nice.) What I like to do is to get someone who I see loves the game, and sort of take them under my wing for a night. If they stick with me, I call in some good players to go on the enemy team to present a bit more of a challenge then randoms, and help them polish their playstyles.

While I do agree that quite a few players (myself even) are not on AT's level mechanically, I know that if we worked on playing as a team when scrimming them (or really any organized group of 4) that would be beneficial. My mechanics and aim aren't on the level of stoop, ragnaros, and the like, yet I've been able to fit in with well known players because I'm willing to put in the effort to work on teamplay rather then just my solo game. If anything, playing against hard matches has helped me mechanically, it's one of the fastest ways to find and cut out the flaws in your playstyle.

One thing about mechanics is, it's sort of a self confidence thing for a lot of players. Until they feel like they can rip up like some of the best, players are unwilling to even approach teams/clans for fear of being rejected. Meanwhile, I see these clans being pretty open for facilitating organized play, even when some of the people in said clan are not even level 40 yet. It's just difficult to advertise this openness without sounding like shills. Most of us well known players really do, in our hearts, want this game to grow. We want more people in our teams and clans.

There are plenty of diamonds in the rough on the servers, maybe we should put more effort into reaching out to them.

LudicSavant
23rd Dec 2014, 20:58
Draft tournament seems like it might be a good idea for kickstarting a sense of community and perhaps even facilitating the formation of more permanent teams. I think a lot of good players are out there but don't have teams currently (or maybe even had teams, but those teams broke up when one or more people decided to quit for whatever reason). It might also help with finding the "diamonds in the rough" that Calderweiss mentions.