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Shutenti
27th Nov 2014, 18:27
So I've been thinking about the consequences of the new MMR lately. The idea is to ensure that players of similar skills get to play together, but the consequences of the implementation seem a bit different to that.

The new MMR is invisible so there's no motivation to try to improve it. I think the idea here was that then everyone can relax and just have a good time together but I expect this will happen instead:

John, representing a nontrivial fraction of the playerbase, likes to pubstomp. In fact the only reason he plays Nosgoth is for the fun of tearing apart less-skilled players. He plays to maximize his K/D and doesn't really care if his team loses as long as he, personally, wins on K/D, damage and score.

In Nosgoth, this play is pretty detrimental to the team. John likes to play as a scout, stay out of the fray and snipe as many of his teammates kills as he can before running away and waiting for the rest of his team to respawn. He never gets eaten and kills lots of vampires. What could make him happier? Nothing! He's happy.

As a consequence of this, his MMR drops. Although he's technically very skilled and is able to win every 1v1 at this level he isn't helping his team and so he loses matches and gets to play with weaker players. John loves this! His K/D ratio keeps getting better and better until his MMR stabilizes at a level in which he single-handedly carries every match with no support from his team whatsoever.

Steve, representing the majority of the playerbase, wants to have a good time playing a teamwork-based game with and against players of similar skills. But every time Steve joins a game there's a John on one of the teams, playing at a far higher technical level than the rest of the server and ruining the game for his team. Gradually, Steve gets frustrated and stops playing, leaving more and more Johns.

Eventually the Johns end up in servers against each other, cannot pubstomp any more and also get frustrated and stop playing.

Is this going to be a problem or is there a reason this won't ever happen?

Ysanoire
27th Nov 2014, 18:45
I think this is so hypothetical as to be a non-issue.

I can't imagine a John whose idea of "pubstomping" would involve losing.

And I don't know how it's even possible to maximise your k/d, score and damage without helping the team. I mean, frags are frags, you can't gain any for yourself without getting them for the team; in order to avoid deaths for your k/d you have to keep yourself and your teammates alive, in practice it's not really possible to just wait to "snipe temamates' kills" because if you don't do anything you're missing out on that sweet sweet score for assists and damage stats.

rupertt
27th Nov 2014, 18:54
i fully agree with Shutenti and dont understand the way psyonix is going here.
For me it looks like some weird way of frustrating people to make them buy runestones or whatever.

In my personal opinion KD ratio and damage given should also be indicators for matchmaking.

Also the experince given during a fight, is too much focused on kills rather than Teamplay.
U get punished for using teamskills like dominate mind because as a player u dont get any reward for it.

The experienve given for each match should be way more focused on teamplay.
Is it teamplaygame or just another fps shooter?
If the developers are interested in having a growing community having fun with this game, then the frustration factor must be lowered and experience per match must be distributed in a suitable way which is currently clearly not.

Vampmaster
27th Nov 2014, 19:59
How about subtracting the average k/d ratio of all players in the match from your own, scaling that by the time spent in the match and then using thr result to decide whether to increase or decrease your MMR rank. I think that would give a good measure of how you compared to not just your own team, but your opponents too.

The value could be weighted towards the teammates scores if the devs think it's necessary.

FireWorks_
27th Nov 2014, 22:13
The "useless" zero death camo scout is real, but whats the problem? If he would be really pubstomping, he would be winning.

The only problem I can see is that one kind of bad players gets mixed with the other kind of bad players. Dragging each other down in the fun, but on the other hand, their enemies should be just as bad. Its just a totally different experience like the dota where noone carrys a TP:P

Razaiim
28th Nov 2014, 01:22
I really don't think this will ever be an issue. K/D is no good for ego-stroking without a decent win/loss (since deathmatch is the more popular mode by far), and once this settles out, most solo players should be staring at a nice 50%, since they will be matched with similar skill solo players. I think the MMR rating is good for the game. In just the few hours I've played, I've been in much more fair and balanced matches than any I've played since Alpha/early Beta, where everyone was still picking it up, and this will go more towards helping retain players than turning them away.

-Konf-
28th Nov 2014, 03:46
Sorry guys, but I don't see how developers are to blame if this hypothetical situation does ever occur.

You can't change people's attitude from a game design perspective.

There are people that support the MMR system in team-based games (myself included) and there are people that are trying to highlight its flaws (because yes, it's not the clearest representation of personal skill). There always have been and there will be toxic people and even reporting tools (if we get some introduced) might not be enough to prevent that sort of behaviour.

Now, here's a couple of thoughts:

1) There's a high-skilled guy pub-stomping? You are already better than him/her, because if the person needs to go stomp new players to prove their skill and boost ego and stays away from people of their actual skill level - I say chances are that's because they get stomped in higher level play themselves.

2) Make their game hell. Realistically, you won't be experiencing this sort of behaviour too often. If you do, why not try to eliminate the biggest threat on the enemy team? Even without the guy being necessarily a pub-stomper, there will be people here and there that play a bit better than average skill level. Eliminating highest threats generally helps win games. Focus the guy with your team, and if he's so full of bad attitude I'm sure he'll have a "great" time and most likely leave.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that everyone wants to have fun and I support that. But this issue we're discussing here isn't a game design flaw. It's a personality issue. And it can get solved only by us, players, choosing to treat one another with respect. Sadly enough, we don't live in a perfect world so things like that occur.

Thamior2311
1st Dec 2014, 18:50
Seriously. People just join, see 10 or more frags advantage on the opposing team and leave. Whats the point?

Wolf_the_Legend
1st Dec 2014, 21:16
just set counter to 0:0 only for that guy that joined right now ... and everybody's happy ...

Passarbye
1st Dec 2014, 21:17
They just rolled-back matchmaking to an older version to fix bugs on the newer alpha.

My personal opinion is that when a match is capped at 8 players, the room should be locked (meaning you can't leave the lobby) and everyone stays until the match has at least started. I see a lot of people that leave a lobby as soon as they join it, which causes the game to start the match with 3v4 all day every day. That situation makes me want to leave the lobby when the game starts, it just **** sucks.

LudicSavant
2nd Dec 2014, 23:57
And I don't know how it's even possible to maximise your k/d, score and damage without helping the team.

- Prioritizing damage over support abilities (for example, Shadow Bomb is generally recognized by the competitive community as a stronger ability than Choking Haze. How come we see Choking Haze so much more than Shadow Bomb in pubs?).
- Prioritizing your life over a winning team score. For example, running off to go heal during a fight where you could have sacrificed yourself to wipe the enemy team. Generally avoiding worthwhile risks to oneself at the cost of the team's safety.
- Prioritizing targets that are easy to kill over targets that are hard to kill but more dangerous to your team.
- Aiming for last hits instead of optimizing overall team contribution.
- Waiting around with Echolocation and only ever going in on lone, weakened targets.
- Using camouflage and grappling hook to constantly run away from any engage while taking an occasional potshot for a last hit. Ensure that you are the last to be engaged on. E.G. "You only need to run away faster than your teammates"

Just a few of many, many examples, and it applies to other statistics besides just K/D. For example, you might try to optimize your "accuracy" statistic by only taking the easiest of shots or never checking corners as an alchemist. The point is that the best strategy for optimizing a given performance statistic is typically not the same as the best strategy for optimizing win chance in a given match.

In any case, I don't see the OP's point either. If John has a frustrating advantage, he'll be winning, and his MMR will rise. If he's playing in a way that optimizes a statistic other than winrate, well... he won't be winning, so why would anyone be frustrated?

Either way, it would be nice if the MMR ratings were visible. It's depressing to think that people are so insecure that they can't be allowed to see their own MMR.

Ysanoire
3rd Dec 2014, 15:57
- Prioritizing damage over support abilities (...)

Just a few of many, many examples, and it applies to other statistics besides just K/D.

I accept your examples and I agree individual goals and team goals may sometimes diverge (it's definitely true when we're talking about maximising one particular stat like accuracy) BUT I still believe that in practice maximising your overall results will mean you will end up contributing one way or another:
- if you're using choking haze in pubs and you're doing damage with it, you ARE helping the team; whereas if it's a situation where haze doesn't work and you'd be better off with smoke because the human team is so good, you will not be maximising anything for yourself,
- if you're waiting around to only finish lone, weakened targets you may have a good K/D but not damage; it's common to see vampires in pubs, especially pounce reavers, playing in an extremely cautious and opportunistic way, and they may have a K/D of 5, but their damage is low and typically they don't make it to the top of the scoreboard (as far as I've noticed),
- camo scouts... eh, honestly, I'm not sure how successful they can be without actually being useful, but I would say if a scout deals some damage, finishes off 2 vampires and successfully runs away then he has helped the team, I just don't see how he can be useless (especially to the point of losing the game for his team as described by OP) but have awesome stats at the same time; in general as humans, not covering your teammates means the vampires will come for you next = ruined stats.

Rago600
7th Dec 2014, 09:23
Hello there;:nut:

Im Happy to say that i like the new Matchmaking-System.

I just happend to see that there was another Rollback, so you got Tons of work to do ? !
Dear dev´s , we really Appriciate it.

I know there´s a lot of flaming and complaining going on but thats how this People are.

I just want to say
Thank you for all this Work, dont forget you Family´s, because Christmas is around the corner.

Saikocat
8th Dec 2014, 12:05
At the moment the new matchmaking isn't in place, though we have been running tests for it and you'll have seen those updates go out. Before long, it will be released permanently, once the issues are ironed out.
Thanks for your patience, and for the feedback! :)
We appreciate it all!

Rheonnyn
11th Dec 2014, 22:37
I'm pretty sure I'm about to repeat something the developers already know, but it seems to be an unresolved issue.

Today was my first time playing the game. So, I logged in and started a match, I got instantly killed and something caught my attention: The guy who killed me was lvl 40. I was playing in the mode (which name I can't remember) where you are supposed to play with people from lvl 1 to 10.

How come I get into a match with a guy who's already at lvl cap?

I mean, come on, guys, that took all the fun away from the match. My team (a bunch of newbies, like me) lost 30 to 1, when we were vampires, and 30 to 4 , when we were humans.

This needs to be fixed as soon as possible, otherwise, it's impossible to enjoy the game.

By the way, this happened twice, but the second time I left the match when I saw the other guys's lvl.

I really hope to get some kind of answer as to what to do. I realise the game is in closed beta and that allows for errors, faults, issues, whatever you want to call it, but this is a bit ridiculous.

Aside from that, the game seems promising. Don't let it crash because of this.

FireWorks_
11th Dec 2014, 22:48
This could be a bug in the new MM system they just introduced these days.

Out of curiosity, how did you know they were lv40?

Rheonnyn
11th Dec 2014, 23:38
It shows up when you get killed. You see the loadout from the guy who killed you, including his lvl.

MasterZtark
12th Dec 2014, 00:28
Sounds like a bug if you're getting matched with these people in the New Recruit lobby. You were in the New Recruit lobby, right? Going into standard TDM will match you with these people, because you're matched up based on the brand new MMR system (NOT player level), which started everyone at the lowest level (so until these lvl 40's play enough and rank up, the game will considers them the same skill level as someone that has never played like yourself and match you together).

Thanks for making a post about this, the devs need to know this (they are pretty active on the forums and most likely will see this).

Saikocat
12th Dec 2014, 11:29
There was a known issue where players can sometimes join the new recruit lobby, when over level 10, that might have been what you encountered, if you were in that playlist. It is rare that it happens. Was it during one match?

In general, for matchmaking, make sure you check out Corey's thread for detail on how the new system works:
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=148782

snejjjj
12th Dec 2014, 11:58
Iam lvl40 and got a "2hours"-player (lvl1-3 or sth like that) in my team. Happens 1time/day.

Rheonnyn
12th Dec 2014, 13:28
If it is a known issue, it craves for a solution.

This happened two more times after I posted this (once against a party of all lvl 40), then it stopped.

I mean, the lvl means nothing, I realised that after winning the fourth match fairly easy. I even learned a couple of tricks from the higher lvls.

The thing is, some people have a hard time learning the game's mechanics, and being annihilated by a bunch good high lvl players doesn't help.

In response to MasterZtark's question: Yes, I was in the New Recruit lobby. The one for people between lvl 1 and 10.

In response to Saicocat's question: Yes, it happened during a match. Four matches, actually.

In response to snejjjj: I've seen guys like you get paired with newbies. I suppose is as frustrating to you as it is for those paired against a team of lvl cap players.

I've come across people with the same problem and, some of them, are considering leaving the game. This is the main reason, for me, to be posting this.

The "positive" side of this is that it might make some toxic players leave. They harm the game more than what this issue does.

Keitaro767
16th Dec 2014, 08:47
The Matchmaking pool is too random, even for beginning players like me. There should be a game mode specifically for high-leveled players.

Beginners won't stand a chance against them, who already played the game at the alpha stage of the game. Also, my another concern is that the matchmaking system does not distribute the players evenly. One team ends up being too strong for the other, thus making the game one-sided (true story BTW. I experienced one game where my team won all of the rounds).

I am one of the players who do not revel in winning in a premeditated match.

So please, SE. For the sake of this game's survival, you really need to fix this MAJOR problem. Or else, the players' interest in playing this game will definitely falter. You do NOT want that to happen.

Vaizyh
19th Dec 2014, 15:30
I don't really know if the MM system is working as intended.

I get paired every damn game with (or vs) players with 600h+ of game time.

Seriously, I'm either godlike and got as good as them in my humble 13h game time, or the MM system is taking way too long evaluating my "skill" at the moment, bcuz i "gave the system" 20'ish games today alone, and still, last match an enemy player had 653h of play time, and stomped a whole team for a whooping 17/x/x in one of the rounds by himself (total was around 13 - 60 or so .. utter loss).

This still happens every darn game. i either get paired with such players and its a massive win (thanks to him. believe me, not that fun anyway..), or vice-verse, and we get stomped from god-knows-where from a guy with spider-man X hulk powers.

Definitely the reason my mates left the game already, and the main reason i stop playing every day frustrated with this situation =\ (and yet, i'm still giving the game a change to "balance it out" .. hope it does so eventually =3 )

GameFreakTV
24th Dec 2014, 00:25
Is there going to be any fix to match making? I understand i'm running with PUG teams but it's a bit ridiculous fighting people that are way high level and have better skill's. having matches where my team gets 3-4 kills

Also Is there going to be some sort of consequence for people leaving the game?

Maybe there should be some sort of surrender option as well

Zetsu77
24th Dec 2014, 10:21
Worst matchmaking evar.

GizmoJebus
24th Dec 2014, 14:47
Sometimes I'm the giver and sometimes I'm the receiver of the whopping, it's still closed beta and things are getting ironed out. Just try to have some fun (even in defeat) and have something else to play when this is too stressful. I still have fun when I'm getting beat, unless the other team is full of ***hat prepubescent taunters...

eXmoRtiZ
24th Dec 2014, 17:14
Well at least the leaver is deserve a loss!!! Some pplz just leave when they team is losing, cuz they want to keep they win ratio high.

Razaiim
24th Dec 2014, 21:16
Personally I don't want to see a surrender button, even if the score becomes unwinnable due to score, as you can still squeeze out a fair bit of xp, and like Gen said try to have fun with it either way. There will be some guys that just go all out no matter what and you'll have to deal with, but that is no different than any other game.

Also: punishing leavers shouldn't be enforced until crashes and control impairing bugd are generally fixed, as many "leavers" are malfunctioning rather than abandoning.

Obisher
24th Dec 2014, 22:20
Personally I don't want to see a surrender button, even if the score becomes unwinnable due to score, as you can still squeeze out a fair bit of xp, and like Gen said try to have fun with it either way. There will be some guys that just go all out no matter what and you'll have to deal with, but that is no different than any other game.

I agree with this 100%

Hyperspeed1000
24th Dec 2014, 22:56
yeah...the mm is not working at all my profiles is just full of screenshots where i out dmg my team by 5k dmg or even more and i am actually not that good of a player...its just that mm is constantly throwing me into 'beginner' lobbies

Vampmaster
24th Dec 2014, 23:12
What about making it so that both rounds need to be won independently in order for the result to count as a win? It would make it more worthwhile to stick around until the end of the match, but it would introduce the possibility of a draw. Maybe a tiebreaker or fallback could be added.

Razaiim
25th Dec 2014, 00:54
What about making it so that both rounds need to be won independently in order for the result to count as a win? It would make it more worthwhile to stick around until the end of the match, but it would introduce the possibility of a draw. Maybe a tiebreaker or fallback could be added.

Given the current state the vampire team frequently scores higher than the human team, so draws would happen left right and center. Given a draw yields the same rewards as a loss, this wouldn't do too much to help the situation. As soon as a team wins round one, the best you can do is hope for a draw no matter how well you play. Since well balanced matches see differences of 3-4 points in overall score, I'd say the system works fine right now, and an attitude change from those that throw it at the earliest disadvantage is needed most.

Vampmaster
25th Dec 2014, 02:43
Given the current state the vampire team frequently scores higher than the human team, so draws would happen left right and center. Given a draw yields the same rewards as a loss, this wouldn't do too much to help the situation. As soon as a team wins round one, the best you can do is hope for a draw no matter how well you play. Since well balanced matches see differences of 3-4 points in overall score, I'd say the system works fine right now, and an attitude change from those that throw it at the earliest disadvantage is needed most.

Well, like I said, it would need a tiebreaker. I don't necessarily think what I suggested in my previous post is the best option, but it's useful to have multiple ideas to choose from.

GenFeelGood
25th Dec 2014, 05:43
Just suggesting an alternate option; but with open beta and the increased population that follows, what if we divided the TD into those who want to play exclusively human and exclusively vampire (instead of back to back like it is now)? At this point there a lot of us who like the human round more than the vamp and that number is only gonna increase with open beta.

Vampmaster
25th Dec 2014, 09:25
For those who only want to play as one faction, something like coop/horde/arena or basically any sort of Team vs AI would be a must. Otherwise any imbalance between the number of people who prefer one faction over another will lead to a lot of people not being ablebto find a match.

GenFeelGood
25th Dec 2014, 14:35
For those who only want to play as one faction, something like coop/horde/arena or basically any sort of Team vs AI would be a must. Otherwise any imbalance between the number of people who prefer one faction over another will lead to a lot of people not being ablebto find a match.

Fingers are crossed for Horde Mode :D

Khalith
25th Dec 2014, 23:14
Is there going to be any fix to match making? I understand i'm running with PUG teams but it's a bit ridiculous fighting people that are way high level and have better skill's. having matches where my team gets 3-4 kills

Maybe there should be some sort of surrender option as well

Surrender option has been discussed before. I'm for it personally but I wouldn't want it to be a vote, I'd rather the match just end immediately and go on to the next one once it becomes unwinnable.

If you're in a bad lobby or game there's no shame in just leaving to find another one. Teams are pretty unbalanced right now for the most part, to the point where the imbalance in faction strength (namely humans still being much stronger at higher levels of play) isn't even noticeable. I disagree with punishing leavers though.

Enlightened_Fool
27th Dec 2014, 01:10
Yeah I really hate people who leave mid match. If you have a real connection problem or a crash, it's understandable. But having a bad round and quitting out creates an unfair match for the teammates you left, and really should be punished somehow.
It'd be great if matchmaking could group those types into matches with people who do the same.
BUT, while I have no idea if it's even possible, I think the only way to do that fairly is maybe have some way for the game to be able to tell the difference between when a player hits the Quit/Exit button versus the game crashing or being closed some other way like, say, force closing it via task manager.
I will say though, a lot of the time it's not really a problem as a replacement usually comes fairly quickly.

Something that would be nice is if that for people who do crash or disconnect had a timer to rejoin in on the game, but I don't think that would work well in non-comp games.

KiLLaZ87
27th Dec 2014, 23:06
WORST MACHMAKING EVER

Amareth
27th Dec 2014, 23:44
So, what's the deal with the current matchmaking system? I'm not talking about the levels being horribly mismatched here or leavers ruining games without any consequences, there are other threads about that.
I'm talking about every. single. match. I played tonight being 4 people signed together (not the same four people obv, different teams) vs a group of 4 randoms. Every match followed the same pattern. Struggling to get my randoms to not go line up to die, seeing the first person charge in alone, second and third die together and number 4 is left alone to repeat the process. Then inevitably one of the randoms feels the other team is obv too stronk! and leaves the game. And from there on it's a stream of 3v4, with random fourths jumping in to leave again.

This happened so many times in a row I just plain lost any fun the game had.
And I really dont want to hear any "oh but you can just join with a team too!" or "teams require skill and coordination to win!" no, I want to be able to sign in solo and play with random teams, and NO a team of 4 facing randoms do not need any semblance of skill and a minimum amount of coordination.
And yes I can just suck it up and farm losses but why the fudge should I have to?

What I want to know is, why is the matchmaking letting premade teams sign up, hold a team with no chance of facing eachother, and ruin the game for randoms? Why do we not atleast have separate matchmakings of teams vs teams and solo vs solo? This is absolutely ruining what is otherwise a pretty good game for me.

TLDR: Current Matchmaking blows chunks and needs to be changed (again). Also since some zealous mod deemed it necessary to merge this with an existing thread, I'd like a discussion about premades vs solo players being matched. I felt this topic warranted a new topic, but obv the mod didnt agree.

TheShamanSong
14th Jan 2015, 03:41
This is my first post on this board, but I feel in need to do it because this is such a great game, it would be a shame to see something grow as a problem and keep silence.

That being said, I would like to address an annoying problem that may push people away from playing this great game: the matchmaking for new players.
It is very, very frustrating that you need to wait up to 30 minutes to be able to play your very first match.
This happens because new players only get to play with new players, which could be good (avoid new players to be massacred), except that this game still do not have that many new players.
I got to invite at least 6 players to the game and 3 of them are already considering not playing it anymore. Because they could not play a single match yet.
Maybe, while we are still on beta testings, this game should have only one matchmaking, for everybody. Do not separate new players yet! It is killing this game.

--Ram--
14th Jan 2015, 03:58
I feel like new players are always going to have a bad time at the moment. Being separated into a sub 10 game makes for long queues. Being put in the main stream may lead to them being massacred.

If they have some FPS experience under their belt they would probably do better just diving into the main stream headfirst, as they would likely be better than many players I see after only a few games. Otherwise just pick the lesser of two evils, there's not really a way around this problem at the moment.

MrPimsky
22nd Jan 2015, 00:27
I haven't really played this for too long, maybe an hour. But matchmaking is terrible and needs to be fixed. I have had multiple accounts where i was in a group of 3 friends and one got kicked when we entered a match. And I have been in the middle of the round and I just loose connection to the match, no You have lost connection or anything that says there was a problem.:mad: But I haven't really experienced anything else that was bad with the game, graphics are good, gameplay is great, (Vampires op though XD) (Update) I can't even play with my one friend anymore because everytime we are in a group and he joins i cant see him in the group and it wont match us with a game and when i join his when he launches 'search for game' it says i leave the group.(Edit) Now I keep crashing to the games homepage when i join a game... Please upgrade these servers please....

FireWorks_
22nd Jan 2015, 08:58
Sorry to hear that some of these things still occur. Some of that stuff was fixed but it seems there still instances out there that can cause it.

If you could file a meaningful bug report (http://www.nosgoth.com/bug_report) with all the info you can remember and the data you got (see .log in \Documents\My Games\Nosgoth\BCMPGame\Logs) that would be great. It is a beta afterall and we are here to test it :)