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PencileyePirate
6th Dec 2014, 03:28
It seemed that he was supposed to be an assault-type in early beta, but ended up being too powerful, and various nerfs were employed (HP, grenade distance, attack speed, skill damages, etc.)

More recently they have been very hit-and-run: smoke in, attack, and escape. This was possible only with shadow-step, as evasion is too short to escape from most humans and easily countered by explosive shot. With today's patch shadow-step has become useless for escapes because the warm-up time is not only long enough to take decent damage, but also seems interrupt-able (WHY!?)

We're now in a situation where attacking reavers should commit to attacking until death, except they're too weak to do anything other than land an attack or two before getting focus-fired.

TLDR: please stop nerfing every ability that gets popular in the meta and revert both SS warmup & evasion duration.

xBaseLine
6th Dec 2014, 03:48
I can understand the Sweep Kick nerf. But to nerf the shadow step seems to be really stupid for me. It's already the weakest class in public servers in my opinion. But now, you can forget it. As you said, go in, fight to death, repeat.

--Ram--
6th Dec 2014, 04:40
+1

Have no issues with the sweep kick change, surprised by shadowstep nerf. Have yet to test but it does sound like shadowstepping during focus fire will be vastly more difficult. I don't think that was needed.

FireWorks_
6th Dec 2014, 21:49
Gotta say I liked shadow step for its quick escape and travelling ability. The problem I have with it is the synergy with high burst damage skills of the reaver.

Instead of the shadow step nerfing, Id rather see a 200dmg sweeping kick with the 1sec AoE stun that it had many months ago.

chriZor
6th Dec 2014, 23:16
hey PencileyePirate!

Keep in mind that non of these abilitys should be a 100% disengage. The nerf on shadowstep seems to be ok(its beta - its testing). But it shouldn't be interrupt-able.
The evasion got enough time to climb onto small/middle-size-buildings/bridges - but its not 100% save when you try to climb big walls.

PencileyePirate
7th Dec 2014, 02:24
Gotta say I liked shadow step for its quick escape and travelling ability. The problem I have with it is the synergy with high burst damage skills of the reaver.

Instead of the shadow step nerfing, Id rather see a 200dmg sweeping kick with the 1sec AoE stun that it had many months ago.

I think evasion should have that synergy as well, and it seemed like it did until the duration was nerfed into uselessness. I really disliked the stun on kick but if it means bringing SS/evasion back from the dead then I'd be willing to try.


Keep in mind that non of these abilitys should be a 100% disengage. The nerf on shadowstep seems to be ok(its beta - its testing). But it shouldn't be interrupt-able.
The evasion got enough time to climb onto small/middle-size-buildings/bridges - but its not 100% save when you try to climb big walls.

I agree SS shouldn't be 100% disengage, but I don't think the new warmup time is acceptable (even if interrupt is removed.) Also evasion sometimes provides enough time to climb small/medium buildings, but only if you don't travel more than a few steps beforehand. There's not enough time to break line-of-sight and humans will usually know your location when it wears off.

The_Hylden
7th Dec 2014, 05:27
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TendrilSavant
7th Dec 2014, 05:47
Rather than reverse Shadow Step's nerf, it might be a good time to reevaluate Evasion.

But for the sake of discussion, maybe allow some control over Shadow Steps similar to the change to Sentinel's Takeoff? Not really a buff, just more versatility, since it's use as a escaped tool is slightly hampered. Keeping Shadow Step as a versatile tool while strengthening Evasions strength on the front lines is what I'd like to see.


Also evasion sometimes provides enough time to climb small/medium buildings, but only if you don't travel more than a few steps beforehand.
I actually like that if you don't plan your retreat properly you can get punished hard. But, it does feel a bit too punishing sometimes; especially on maps with a lot of tall buildings i.e. Sommerdamm and the Fane.

At this point, I'd like to suggest adding a second back to Evasions use time but only if certain aspects are considered. There's a couple reasons why Evasion was too strong at 4-5sec in my opinion, mainly the way it interacted with regeneration and its cooldown.


Regeneration kicks in at 7-8secs, I think, so when evasion has a high use time it essentially makes getting to that regen state easier. This allowed Reaver's too much ease in repositioning.
And then there's the cooldown, when Evasion is activated it's cooldown starts counting down. So when it was 5 seconds long it might have been 20secs between activation, but 15secs between uses. This is made it feel stronger than it appears on paper.

Razaiim
7th Dec 2014, 16:21
The biggest thing i wouldn't mind seeing from shadow step is preserving your motion at the start though the end. So if you are running forward, jump then SS, once you rematerialize you are still traveling forward, rather than falling straight down.
The idea of adding slight direction control is also a good one.

PencileyePirate
8th Dec 2014, 23:31
After playing today's build the warmup time might be acceptable ... but there is definitely an issue with interrupt-ability. For a while I thought it being interrupted by damage, but it's been interrupted several times when I wasn't taking any hits. This seems very similar (identical?) to the SS bug in one of the November MM test builds. Also I still think evasion needs increased duration.

Whoopdidoohah
10th Dec 2014, 14:05
I disagree with everything the OP said.

Shadow step is still functionning as intended. The 20% nerf to activation time is barely noticeable. Dang. What is 20% of 1s ? .2s. So now the activation is 1.2s. Big deal.

Evasion dosen't need to last longer. If you're getting jibbed by explosive shot (that's what a direct counter is, it's COUNTERING that reaver's evasion), just switch to shadow step, and laugh all the way to the bank. Also, don't pop evasion and run around like an idiot like I see some players doing, get out of sight ASAP. Good human players will just recharge their guns waiting for it to end to then unleash all their firepower on you. Much like Tyrant's Ignore pain. It only buys you a few seconds if you stand there in sight of the humans. No humans will unload their guns on you when you're 'evading' after a bit of experience fighting evasion reavers. Check the scoreboard and if there are 2+ hunters, use shadow step.

Those tools have probably 90% disengage success if reavers use it cleverly. Pretty much all the other classes have nothing that gives you that much chance to disengage. How does a deceiver do to hit and run without taking an enormous amount of damage ? Shure shroud, disguise and illusions are there, but they hardly have a the same success rate as reavers disengage moves. Risk vs reward dude.

PencileyePirate
10th Dec 2014, 15:09
Shadow step is still functioning as intended. The 20% nerf to activation time is barely noticeable. Dang. What is 20% of 1s ? .2s. So now the activation is 1.2s. Big deal.

I guess you didn't read the entire thread? I accepted the activation time isn't that bad, and think SS still works fine for dis-engaging when it doesn't self-cancel during activation. The problem is that it gets cancelled at all.


Evasion doesn't need to last longer. If you're getting jibbed by explosive shot (that's what a direct counter is, it's COUNTERING that reaver's evasion), just switch to shadow step, and laugh all the way to the bank. Also, don't pop evasion and run around like an idiot like I see some players doing, get out of sight ASAP. Good human players will just recharge their guns waiting for it to end to then unleash all their firepower on you. Much like Tyrant's Ignore pain. It only buys you a few seconds if you stand there in sight of the humans. No humans will unload their guns on you when you're 'evading' after a bit of experience fighting evasion reavers. Check the scoreboard and if there are 2+ hunters, use shadow step.

I know how to use Evasion, and what a counter is. That doesn't make it any less weak, since the counter is both well known and immediate. Many will also chase for the 3s and begin firing the instant it wears off.


Those tools have probably 90% disengage success if reavers use it cleverly.

Please don't make up statistics.


Pretty much all the other classes have nothing that gives you that much chance to disengage.

I think this has more to do with movement speed, but I'll agree that SS does help.

Whoopdidoohah
10th Dec 2014, 15:56
I guess you didn't read the entire thread? I accepted the activation time isn't that bad, and think SS still works fine for dis-engaging when it doesn't self-cancel during activation. The problem is that it gets cancelled at all.



I know how to use Evasion, and what a counter is. That doesn't make it any less weak, since the counter is both well known and immediate. Many will also chase for the 3s and begin firing the instant it wears off.



Please don't make up statistics.



I think this has more to do with movement speed, but I'll agree that SS does help.

I read the entire thread, FYI.

I'm playing reaver just as much as any other vamps and I never experienced SS interrupts. If so probably just a bug.

Evasion isn't weak, the only class that can really counter it are hunter with explosive shot and alchemist with their light bomb and projectiles. I think that shadow step is better than evasion but that dosen't mean evasion is useless. For example, you're playing a bunch of prophets and scouts ? Evasion is perfect. But shadow step is still better, under almost all circumstances. In fact, I can't think of a moment where it would be more beneficial to use evasion over shadow step.

I made up that statisctic out of my head because that how successful I think it really is. I finish many games as a Reaver with much less deaths than with other vampires just because of shadow step (and honestly I never use evasion anymore, shadow step is the ****).

Movement speed of Deceiver vs Reaver ? They're almost identical. Give it a rest, the other vamps have nothing that can give them the hit and run easiness of reavers. There's the reason why reavers are the preffered class for competitive play.

REAVER - Smoke - Hit - shadow step (easy mode kills)
DECEIVER - Disguise - hit - shroud / illusions (harder easy mode)
SENTINEL - is very hard to play against competitive humans, needs other classes to open up to do their thing. No escape abilities once landed, other than an underpowered takeoff. Tough class to master.
TYRANT - Enrage is probably better than Ignore pain. My favorite setup is Enrage - charge - ground slam with bloodlust perk, then you clean them up. If I can hit my charge it's almost a guaranteed kill unless humans CC. Needs other class to open up, ideally a smoke bomb.

Reaver is the end all be all class, most versatile and easier to play.

One thing though, explosive shot hunters are a little too rampant. I'd suggest they take a look at the damage it does because it's very reliable in it's present state. The only other thing that annoys me in this game other than having to fight 4x reavers is having to fight 4x hunters. Taking baby steps to balance things out, like this dev team is doing, is the right thing to do. Even after many nerfs reavers are still very potent.

PencileyePirate
11th Dec 2014, 02:15
I'm playing reaver just as much as any other vamps and I never experienced SS interrupts. If so probably just a bug.

It started happening pretty often after the MM patch, so I'm not sure how you missed them. As a disclaimer I haven't used it in several days, and it's possible I missed a hot-fix or something. I agree it's likely a bug in my post(s) above.


Evasion isn't weak, the only class that can really counter it are hunter with explosive shot and alchemist with their light bomb and projectiles. I think that shadow step is better than evasion but that dosen't mean evasion is useless. For example, you're playing a bunch of prophets and scouts ? Evasion is perfect. But shadow step is still better, under almost all circumstances. In fact, I can't think of a moment where it would be more beneficial to use evasion over shadow step.

We agree SS is better in almost all circumstances [and I think that would still apply with the 20% increased warmup, sans interrupt bug] ... but you don't think Evasion deserves an improvement? I don't follow that logic.


I made up that statisctic out of my head because that how successful I think it really is. I finish many games as a Reaver with much less deaths than with other vampires just because of shadow step (and honestly I never use evasion anymore, shadow step is the ****).

Making up statistics just because you think they're accurate is probably not a good idea. I think evasion is useless in 80% of engagements but I'm sure others would argue with that.


Movement speed of Deceiver vs Reaver? They're almost identical. Give it a rest, the other vamps have nothing that can give them the hit and run easiness of reavers. There's the reason why reavers are the preffered class for competitive play.

Movement speed is close, but Reaver feels quicker to me during attack-cancel+dodge. Anyhow: realizing that SS interrupt is probably a bug, I'm no longer complaining about Reavers' overall hit-and-run effectiveness -- just the interrupt & evasion. I'm pretty sure smoke bomb is the main reason Reavers are preferred in comp play, and IMO it contributes more to their hit-and-run effectiveness than evasion ever has. With that said ... I pray it won't get hit by the nerf bat.