View Full Version : Bitey's Big Feedback (Ability and Class-based feedback!)

6th Dec 2014, 00:05
Hello I'd like to formally introduce myself in this thread since I've been lurking for months reading your things and creeping into your diaries. I'm Bitey a mid-size streamer, pro-amateur gamer, and coach of people who ask fps gaming related questions. If you've happened to see me in game you might notice that I've been participating in the game, community events, pugs, and tournaments for roughly 4-6 months. I've been silent on the postin mostly out of being bashful, shy, and most importantly not speaking out until I believe I'm ready. It's been about 500 hours and I think now is the time to share with the community my ideas, thoughts, and opinions on the subject to open up for public review :D Without any extra delay, I just want to thank those who read all the way through and hope to see you in game!


While I've been playing Nosgoth I've put much of my time into studying each individual class under to discover their hidden merits. My perspective of using something in a game only relates to how well a tool, ability, or weapon will function in tightly organized 4v4 engagement. The ideas I share are mostly for making something more accessible, valuable, and have definitive role in combat scenarios. It's my personal belief that each ability, class, and weapon should all be entirely unique in their functionality on the field. Here are the examples of what I view as problems:

Charge - Marathon: Same attack.

Pounce - Savage Pounce - Leap Attack: Same underlying attack of pouncing, with little difference in terms of functionality.

Repeater - Bolt thrower - Siege bow: Same gun exact gun, minor DPS differences, sole defining feature clip size.

Abduct - Kidnap: Same attack, with limited differences.

Duel Pistols - Heavy Pistols - Swift Pistols: Same gun limited DPS differences.

Viscous Cannon - Hand Cannon: Same gun almost no difference besides 'sticking'

Sunlight vial - Blinding shot: Same ability with blinding shot being better overall.

All of these are examples of things that share too many similarities with their neighboring weapons and abilities. Ideally whats better is to have these things to further differentiate themselves from one another. The sticky launcher and the hand cannon need to have more individuality, the pounce attacks should be further elaborated on with differences in how the damages work, the repeaters could have difference spreads and effective range. I'll be elaborating on my here, with the goal of presenting a case for individualizing weapon/ability choice to create unique playstyles.

Reaver Pounces
I already did the point of writing a reaver write-up in this post. So I'll simply link the post together to save space http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=148966&p=2088797#post2088797

Tyrant Charge/Marathon

I personally see a big problem between charge and marathon the two abilities are exactly the same in how they function in combat. The only difference is how far they go, a small amount damage, and the duration of cooldown. This overlap leads to a problem where both choices perform the same job on paper with the deciding factor of how often and how far. Tyrants have a limited scope of how to force themselves into combat without taking too much damage before getting their abilities off.

While charge is a faster cool down, the shorter range means that you need to be closer to start it up. This means risking chip damage while getting in range and while the shorter movement distance has a dreaded fear of leaving you in a fight with no safe escape. Marathon on the other hand allows you to engage at safer distances, meaning less exposure to ranged chip damage. The longer charge duration means that the player is given the multiple options while they attack. This is to stay in the fight, flee with the ability to a safe area, or fight it out with team support. Those decision making choices add more value towards marathon as the stronger competitive ability.

I would suggest revising these two abilities so that they are something entirely new for players to work with to something as follows:

Charge- This ability should utilize the marathon distances, damage, and cooldown. I believe that charge should simply be charge for all intensive purposes with nothing similar to it existing. It's range should be long, it's damage interesting, and the cooldown respectable. I personally think the damage should stay around 305-315. Marathon and Charge should be merged together to form one ability.

Marathon(Bullrush)- I believe this ability should be overhauled into something new. I propose having an attack similar to a bullrush where the tyrant is able to charge in, carry an enemy off, and finish with some type of ground slam a short distance. The mechanics of the attack could work as follows:

Tyrant bellows a sound the ability starts faster then charge. Then begins to sprint forward faster at high speed. In this phase tyrant is immune to CC.
Upon contacting a human that player is picked up and carried off by the tyrant. All other humans who make contact with the tyrant while moving are also stunned/damaged and pushed aside. The difference here is that they do not fall over like a charge. The held human takes additional minor damage for each player who the tyrant collides with while traveling.
When the tyrant collides with a wall the enemy player is slammed into the wall and drops to the ground. Hitting the player into the wall causes massive damage. The human must perform a getup animation afterwards and the tyrant stumbles back before being able to followup with more attacks.
If there is no wall in the area, the tyrant ends with a body slam attack throwing the human down into the ground.

This attack works similar to Mindcontrol/Pounce/Abduct abilities by removing one player from the fight. I think once a human grabbed they should be able to save their brethren by dealing enough damage. This attack would be quite faster then charge, and have less ability to turn. I think that colliding into the wall should deal extra damage as well as opposed to just slamming the player into the ground.

Repeater- Siege Bow - Bolt thrower

In personal preference I believe that these three weapons of the hunter do not have enough individuality. As it stands these three bows only offer slight differences in how they perform. The repeater is the middle ground between damage per clip and dps, the siege bow focuses in DPS, and the bolt thrower focuses on damage per clip. I think that this setup is an alright, but more emphasis should be placed on highlighting further differences between the guns.

Repeater: This should should likely stay closest to as is. This should be the jack of all and master of none for the automatic repeaters. You could likely leave this one alone as a middle ground between the two setups.

Siege-bow: I believe the current nerf to the damage can be undone, and substitute that for a faster damage falloff. That means that this weapons position will be at the closer ranges and excel at cleaning up targets close, while having a lessor impact at chipping and long ranges. You could also make these bolts slightly larger for a hitscan attack.

Bolt-Thrower: This weapon should have less damage then the repeater but specialize in carrying it's damage at longer ranges. It should also be the most accurate with the least amount of damage falloff. The gun would have a role that excels at chipping and clip size damage, but have a drawback at the closer ranges due to it's lower dps.

These changes push the weapons into more specialized configurations, while also makingchoices between them more dynamic. Currently you min-max by selecting either Highest DPS(Siegebow) vs Highest damage per clip(Bolt thrower). By putting further emphasis on bolt throwers having more range power with less dps and siege bow having higher closerange damage with bigger bolts you also raise the middle ground. Diversification of weapons!


While I'm not a major sentinel player I believe that something should be done to differentiate these two abilities as well. For all intensive purposes abduct is by far the superior ability due to the guaranteed damage. So the clear option is to slightly rework kidnaps abilities to compensate. Since I'm not a player of the classes I also don't have very much intuitive feedback.

Kidnap: Adjust the ability by once picking up a human, the sentential is able to fly higher faster or experiences a speed increase so that they can take the human away further. Highlight this by making the wings glow with a magical energy or something else. While pulling the human out of the fight is strong, the lack luster speed and ability for humans to recover their teammate quickly yields this to be a poor choice overall.

Prophet Pistols

When it comes to playing prophet, I find that the only truly viable choice for selecting pistols seems to be the heavies. All other pistols are vastly inferior due to multiple reasons. Unlike the hunter weapons which have a large array of dps, damage per clip , and differential factors the prophets don't have as nearly as much choice. Heavies have the most damage per clip, the 2nd best dps, an even reload speed with the other pistols and carry the most damage over range. These factors contribute strongly to their superiority, in order to add other options, things must be done to bring the other weapon choices on par with them.

Dual Pistols: These pistols need to have a reload speed which is faster then the heavy pistols, currently they're evenly matched. While they have a very very slight DPS advantage the identical reload speeds means that there is no reason to not take heavies. To top it off, the damage per clip size is also smaller so the performance of these guns can be quantified as inferior in all respects. You could increase the spread slightly on these pistols(Or conversely increase accuracy of heavies) and increase their damage by 3 to make them standout as a more viable-alternative.

Heavies: Should stay as they are. I think that they are in a good position of a strong weapon, the others should be brought up to speed.

Piercing pistols: The problem with these is their excessive reload time, to start off the reload speed should be matched with the heavy pistols. This gets them on the board as being a notable gun. The second option is to then make their hitscan shot slightly larger then the rest as this would help hitting multiple targets in some instances. A final option as an experiment would be to allow them to shoot through different surfaces or through fire through X amount of units in a surface. These would make the gun a much more passable threat on the field and likely find utilitarian use out of them.

Quick Pistols: While these have a respectable DPS, it's hard to say that they have a good role in combat when you rebalanced out the ability of the dual pistols. An interesting remark would be to have these pistols shoot faster over time. Their fire rates start increasing as you hold down their trigger after 3-4 shots. This would offset with a slight accuracy decrease, but would make a very interesting weapon configuration for a close range killer.

Alchemist Weapon Hand-cannon viscous-cannon

While I'm again not a very experienced alchemist I do believe that this is one of the classes which could use some overhauls on the weapon designs. The first glaring instant is the hand cannon and viscous cannon, since they share the same everything with one being a sticky ball. Here is my first few looks at the weapons and how they should be adjusted

Viscous Cannon: This should be overhauled to create a unique weapon for the game. Upon stacking sticky bombs they each have an individual timer to detonate. However the new feature will be that once one of the bomb detonates it will set off any near by sticky bombs to explode at the same time. This creates an area denail weapon with clever usage of explosive. The ammo count and other features might to be adjusted but this creates a deep technical grenade launcher. Here is a verbal example in combat of how this would function:

Alchemist fires 1 bomb on a reaver pounced on a teammate. That one bomb explodes and deals its 210 damage alone.
alchemist fires 3 bombs that stack on a reaver. When the first bomb explodes all the other bombs go off as well dealing a combined total of 630 damage.
Alchemist sticks multiple vampires who are clustered around each other. Due to them being so close all the bombs explode at the same time dealing a large AoE of damage.

While this would require an intensive review of 'minor' balance issues it'd create a gun which has an amazing depth of skill and utility towards it.

Hand Cannon: I believe that this launcher should function more like an impact grenade so that it's unique among the set. This would of course mean that it could utilize a small damage nerf to offset the new ease of use or an ammo reduction. I would further suggest that there be bonus damage for direct hits so that people can be rewarded for skilled shots. This would likely be just enough to match the current GL's damages.

FullBore Cannon: I personally think that this one should remain the same, or even have a slight rebuff to it's damage once more. Due to the fact that it may be the hardest to get damage on with my suggested changes. I also believe that it should have less damage fall off then the other to grenade launchers. This reinforces its role as the big bomb chucker.

Sunlight vial - Blinding shot

The biggest thing that bothers me between these two abilities is the clear overlap across classes. The other major problem is that the superiority of binding shot is that you are able to fire 3 consecutive blinding stunners vs the 1 stunner. Ontop of some other minor differences like damage, it's a clear one sided victory for the hunters copied mechanic from the alchemist. Ideally it'd be best to just make the hunter ability an entirely different type of stun or disrupt.

Blinding shot(Deafening shot): First off, I think the blinding aspect should be removed entirely from this ability. The white out screen effect seems like it's just reused from the alchemists ability. I would replace at the very with with an effect that doesn't blind a vampire, and also remove its effect of cancelling attacks. Since it's a knock-off light bomb, it should be inferior when compared to the original.

My secondary suggestion would be to adjust it towards a deafening blast that blocks sounds, makes the AoE rings on abilities vanish for a few moments and utilizes an overlay that creates a blurred vision for the vampire. It still no longer cancel abilities out as well, so that the hunter only has one true crowd control ability.

Sunlight Vial: I'd buff it's damage or lower the cool down to match the light bomb. I don't really understand why it's got a longer cool down especially if you remove the stunning aspects of the hunter look-alike.


And with all of that, I'm done writing for today. If you read all the way through you deserve a medal of recognition. 5 hours of working and garbage idea crafting. Thanks for the read, hope to see you guys in game. I'll post follow up things in the near future.

TLDR: My ideas are to make things more unique and have no overlapping abilities.

6th Dec 2014, 00:22
Wow, surprisingly i am of the same opinion as Bitey all abilities should do different things and also should be balanced so that ppl have a hard choice what to pick cuz everything is usefull right now its not the case...
I like all idea except the one on Blinding Shot....i would rly like to see this idea implemented into the game this should also not only improve the game alone but also keep the 'meta' healthy

6th Dec 2014, 01:19
My favorite idea of the lot is the Viscous Cannon. If any explosives could set off the viscous bombs, that would have all kinds of implications. Could also make the Viscous Cannon bombs a different color, like... I dunno, purple. Worked for Fullbore.

Messing with the values for the weapon could also have interesting implications alongside this change. For instance, if the fuse were longer, but you could trigger the explosion with any other explosion. Imagine if you could "execute" an enemy with a light bomb when they step around a corner into your trap.

One alchemist weapon I've been imagining is a sort of DoT water bomb launcher that has lower direct hit damage but consistent splash damage (since DoTs don't have the radius damage degradation) and doesn't deal self damage (because, you know, water).

The reason I think this would be such a great weapon for the alchemist is because it would make a new playstyle much more rewarding. More consistent splash damage via DoTs in particular would make the weapon considerably more useful for poking at people behind walls and punishing people for going into predictable hiding spots instead of the alchemist's current playstyle of relying mostly on DPS-racing people at close range (something a DoT-launcher wouldn't be particularly good at), since the radius damage falloff means that catching people in hiding places by lobbing grenades around corners is rarely rewarding (vampires will simply heal it off).

Maybe that could even be two separate weapons (one that doesn't do self damage because it's water-based and is better for direct self-defense, one that has the DoTs and is fire-based or something, useful for lighting up enemy positions). And of course, Bitey gave me the lovely idea for it being a DoT instead of just adjusting the splash damage falloff :)

Clear bombs for aggressive alchemists running straight up to people with water and flamethrowers/flamewalls. Purple bombs for chain reaction stickies and rewarding technical executions. Blue bombs for simple, consistent direct-hit explosions. Green bombs for the bouncing heavy hitter. Red bombs for the firebombs that flush people out and light up their positions. Orange, splitting bombs for their area denial, stopping power, and smoke effect (seriously, those things can blind you). Sounds good to me anyways.

6th Dec 2014, 02:38
I think a lot of these changes would be great some are not needed but most would bring more life to the meta of the game reviving dead skills that don't get much use except for public play. But there is no doubt that there is many skills that are in the shadow of skills that do the same but better with no real advantage.

6th Dec 2014, 05:00
bitey makes a good point, but coming from a game design POV there is a few things the similarities also have to offer. please note, that i think more options is better, so keep the current iterations of skills, and instead of changing the current ones add more.

Maybe dive bomb should be an option instead of grab? maybe add a ground based CC for the sentinel on thr RMB? rather than just a pick up ability, maybe add something which launches an opponent high into the air? (like tyrant grab but you go with them for a little while)

and for each of these new abilities and idea's add small changes, more damage here, longer CC there, so that we have unique skills WITH the ability to tweak the stats to our liking.

maybe have 3 different types of water cannon, one that shoots big blobs of water but less clip size, one that shoots small but more, and one which is a constant stream of water that is a DOT+Slow...

Removing options is BAD, adding choices is GOOD. just make sure everything has small weaknesses that you can exploit, and make it fun for both parties to exploit/get exploited.

6th Dec 2014, 05:02
Good post Bitey :)

Prophet Pistols

When it comes to playing prophet, I find that the only truly viable choice for selecting pistols seems to be the heavies. All other pistols are vastly inferior due to multiple reasons. Unlike the hunter weapons which have a large array of dps, damage per clip , and differential factors the prophets don't have as nearly as much choice. Heavies have the most damage per clip, the 2nd best dps, an even reload speed with the other pistols and carry the most damage over range. These factors contribute strongly to their superiority, in order to add other options, things must be done to bring the other weapon choices on par with them.

Very much agree with this. I would also add that the heavy pistol at least for me allows for significantly better accuracy which more than makes up for the slightly lower paper dps compared with the dual pistol. The quick pistol requires much more consistent tracking to use effectively due to the very high fire rate. The heavy pistols slower more powerful shots allow for tracking to fall off between shots and then be recovered with no dps loss. It almost handles like a shotgun, where strong tracking is less important assuming a player can land flick shots consistently . For me personally this makes the heavy pistol a no-brainer and much more fun to use. Also it sounds way cooler.

As far as sentinel goes I do think it has no meaningful choice in terms of primary. I look forward to the day more non swoop + pickup options are implemented.

6th Dec 2014, 10:37
+1 Bitey

I like this ideas about individual abilitys. The piercing pistols-idea bring me to another point.

shoot through different surfaces or through fire
What about human combo abilitys with shots? Set the bullets on fire when flying through the firewall.

Back to topic.
1. The reaver is fine. There need to be newbe-abilitys with autoaim and the other leap/pounce are individual enough. But new mechanics would be nice to have.

2. The tyrant primarys should be more individuals. - like that Bull-thing

3. The Sentinel Kidnap should have a longer CC to be individual to Abduct //Maybe double grab, but prevented by less shoot// - actually Kidnap is no viable choice - public or competitive

4. The Hunter thing. I like that Siegebow point of view and force it to the melee-range. Here we should play with more spread and higher DPS to prevent shooting at vampires far away. Bolt-thrower and Repeater - I dont know - need to test the actual tuning.

5. The Prophet is even more like this Bolt-thrower/Repeater problem. We need to test how this patch goes. But hopefully he didnt get nerfed to an Hunter 2.0

6. The Alchemist got the most potential. I like that concept playing with the chemical things - combos? Maybe in the future when the vampires got equal mechanics.
The Viscous Cannon Idea is nice. First of all this
When the first bomb explodes all the other bombs go off as well


6th Dec 2014, 17:54
A lot of good stuff in Bitey's post, especially the underlying idea that weapons/abilities should be different rather than slightly tweaked damages or fire rates that currently is happening with most of them. I honestly have no problem with the slightly tweaked stuff staying (or tweaked versions added in the future for new abilities that will be added), but would really just love to see NEW stuff at this point that are drastically DIFFERENT than the others. I know Psyonix loves to give us the choice of picking something like "A weapon that fire slow but does a high damage or a weapon that fires fast but does low damage", and that's fine to me, but also giving us choices between very different weapons/abilities would be even better.

Some weapons/abilities that I think are solid gold from the original post:

The Tyrant's "Bullrush" where he carries a human off.

The Prophet's Piercing Pistols being able to fire through thin walls.

The Alchemist's cannons, all of them. The Viscous Cannon having the sticky ones that detonate each other, the Hand Cannon exploding on impact with ground/structures as well as they currently do with Vampires, the Fullbore being the ones that bounce (and of course the Multi-Cannon which shoots multiple balls), which makes all 4 different rather something like the Hunter's weapons where they are slight number tweaks.

The Hunter's Blinding Shot and Alchemist's Sunlight Vial changes.

8th Dec 2014, 23:44
Bump to the moon.

5th Jan 2015, 13:32
Bump !

I would really like to see that "Bullrush" ability in game, it's clearly similar to the Charger's capacity in Left 4 Dead 2 but I think it would work out great.

TLDR: My ideas are to make things more unique and have no overlapping abilities.
Agreed !

5th Jan 2015, 16:36
I agree with almost everything here, except:

I'm partially against the Deafening Shot idea since I'm not keen on FX that blur vision. I do agree blinding shot is too strong, that Hunter doesn't need the extra CC, and that it should be reworked/replaced.

I wouldn't completely remove Sweeping Kick cancellation, just shorten the window and standardize the cancellation period for all skills. Although I seem to remember this was already done in one of the past couple patches ...?

I don't think Kidnap needs to be reworked, but if it is then I don't particularly mind the suggestions here. IMO Abduct is clearly better in pubs but Kidnap becomes the better skill during full team engages; humans are usually too distracted with smoke and ground vampires to focus the Sentinel. It's still hard to justify picking Sentinel over a Tyrant/Deceiver in competitive play, so I would like to see improvements elsewhere.

I sometimes wish Echolocation was moved to the abduct/kidnap slot, or that the skill could be improved to compensate for the lost damage potential of the alternatives.

All the other suggestions seem pretty great. I especially like your ideas on differentiating Reaver leap+pounce attacks (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=148966&p=2088797#post2088797), the Tyrant bullrush, and improving Alchemist cannons (especially viscous.)

5th Jan 2015, 21:35
Agreed that Prophet pistols and Charge / Marathon need to be distinguished from one another. On the issue of Prophet pistols, I find the heavies are best due to the front-loaded damage. No other class has such a wide spread in base damage among their weapons. Quick Pistols are 90 damage on the first shot while heavies are 150, and that first shot happens instantly. Often this is the difference in killing a fleeing vampire.

These changes push the weapons into more specialized configurations, while also makingchoices between them more dynamic. Currently you min-max by selecting either Highest DPS(Siegebow) vs Highest damage per clip(Bolt thrower).

The Multibow has the highest DPS and fills the role of close-quarters finishing weapon. I'm not sure the Siege Bow needs to necessarily do the same thing. However, hunters are still the best all-around human class with CC, high DPS and great range. Reducing the Deadeye perk (which is univerally used) and maybe increasing the spread of some weapons may be enough to reduce their long-range poke.