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D4RK_LQRD_NEM3SYS
5th Dec 2014, 07:33
Given the choice, wheter to play a corrupt and slightly failing game, or to challenge the fates for another game, a better game against one's destiny, what was a creative fan to do?

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Hi there all, I registered for the main purpose of pointing out franchise inconsistencies in vampire player concepts and to offer alternate solutions, even to other aspects. I've met "Raina Audron" (for those of you who may know) and she and her fiancéé suggested I appear with this topic here elaborating further on the subject. I've been a HUGE LoK fan since SR1's release date, I've been a wikia contributor through middle men, and a background supporter of the community, I've also been a fan fiction writer (but later about this) and so I've decided to actually take the time and register here to make a difference. My before mentioned unusual supporters insisted that I do tell my opinion here and show my counter ideas to the big forum and the big game developer. And so here I am. I've come to nitpick, because I am a fan who cares.

My main concern is quite a few aspects of *Nosgothgame* (named so not to confuse it with the actual name of the world) vampires don't feel like how they should, even keeping in mind that in this rather early time period the lineages are in their pre-devolvement and slightly pre-evolvement stages.
(I hope I've created the topic in the right place, if not and admins decide to move it, please notify me thoroughly, I'm not a regular at foruming.) So I'm going to write a big review about the Nosgothgame vampires released so far, their aspects, and how I feel they fit in into the franchise lore along the lines of imagined evolution of fictional physiology, logical observation of previous games, sought after realism (simply to improve); offering other ideas as necessary.

First the timeline. For those of you not familiar with the franchise, the series had 5 installments, and after Blood Omen where the world and Kain is introduced in a relative past which was the first episode, the second was Soul Reaver 1 (SR1) which was set in the furthest possible future yet showcased and it is here where the story actually gets intertwined.
The game is actually about a war between ancient vampires who looked more like winged angels and their adversaries, called the Hylden who are a weird, twisted, almost alien distorted mirror image of them with different features and mysterious ways. Since legendary times their conflict started, never ended, and is ongoing to this day, and is narrated how the Hylden are managing to infiltrate themselves back into Nosgoth from a demon dimension banishment. Kain the hard headed aristocrat born as the only saviour of this eventual doomsday, yet he only gets to know this long after he died as a mortal and gets reborn as a quite unusual artificial vampire. But this storyline is irrelevant now. He creates six vampirics sons who in turn create their own bloodlines as clans. Kain has denounced his former humanity and became a warlord of the vampire cause, back when they were endangered, continually teaching his and newer generations to fear and hate humans. However his first born son has broken a major rule, and was executed in a watery grave, acidic to vampires touch. It is a long time before it is revealed that he has done this heavy handedly and with a higher purpose, altogether abandoning that whole timeline before departing fully back into the past where he should actively influence the world. Yes, time travel! Hahaa!
Nosgothgame's storyline takes place while SR1 Raziel is floating towards the bottom of the abyss, after he was cast into the Lake of the Dead, but before his emerging from the Underworld. Some few hundred year period probably. The Razielim clan gets hunted, large numbers get killed off, later - now winged - survivors are used in this military conflict as (Sentinel) slave soldiers that ensued between the newly re-allied clans of the remaining 5 lieutenants of the vampires, and (later) 6 of the largest human opposition forces. Well, this sounds good!

Another thing which needs to be known is because of a mental curse that poisoned the souls of everyone in the world (and the land) everyone is born with some kind of spiritual corruption that physically manifests itself on all recipents who are either humans or vampires, but mostly is observable on beings who live long enough for this to take effect significantly, like immortal humanoids, or likewise immortal vampires. Vampires evolve over time gaining beneficial evolutionary traits which help their clan collectively to gain political ground in Kain's military empire, and this mostly shows on the battlefield. It also is a factor that Kain was turned into a vampire by a necromancer instead of catching the blood curse, and when he finally managed to learn how to make his own offspring, his necromancy based vampirism showcased a wide range of evolutionary liberty on his progeny to say the least.

So in this Nosgothgame timeline the vampires need to be less devolved and somewhat less evolved than those NPCs that we could come across in the SR1 gameplay.

One other thing that should be pointed out is in the era between Blood Omen 2 and Soul Reaver 1, Kain created a new military empire (where he made himself self appointed god king) and a military that has access to his homeland resources needs regulations, somewhat uniform logical clothing to equip for a conflict, and a hierarchy. Now the hierarchy is written into the story somewhat, because originally Kain created his lieutenants as his own vampiric "sons" making them second in command, then their progeny became the clans, but the lack of logical clothing on some skins undermines this badly. Even though the looks are not my most pressing concern.

Now the main point. I will offer brief explanations on each clan and analyze what could be wrong with their Nosgothgame counterparts. In order of clan strength in the pre-SR1 age.

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MELCHAHIM - The progeny of Melchiah - Summoner
It is early to speak of the Summoner I know, it just has been introduced as a concept with a player model and spell ideas, but then again this might be the appropriate early timing to discuss her. And I wanted this extra entry in my study to make it more complete.
As by developing the structure of this review, I'll first start by mentioning clan specific skills that might be interpreted into this particular age of a time when Raziel is taking a deep sleep swim lesson. I'll let that sink in for a second... HAHAHA These should be taken into consideration on how to develop the character.
Clan Melchahim:
- Their immortal bodies are somewhat frail to contain their corruption so their body decays.
- They can sometimes use their long tongue to feed on corpses.
- They may also take their victims flesh to heal more of their much needed health back.
- Prefer to rest dug into the ground (either physically or by some supernatural help).
- Have some connection to the Underworld plane, might have some skill in summoning creatures by necromancy.
- Having the most shock value to their visage.
- Their territory was seen as a murky cemetery, deserted necropolis-like ruins, and a mass ceremonial slaughterhouse complex.
<> Melchiah: The father of the clan is a latent monster abomination, a wandering loner between being technically and arguably the weakest son of Kain and the greatest and yet only known significantly skilled vampire necromancer of his time as he hismelf is an explorer of the wraith underworld. This individual is the true definition of a shocking nightmare. He made a habit and clan reputation of skinning his victims after drinking their blood out of pure necessity, and to add to the chills he later learned to craft whole living body parts onto his own. Forced to be a silent and covert power player throughout his career, he always had a longing to fully and terminally enter the spirit world. The one that truly had bad luck, his curse later drove him to the path where his body could not even keep his limbs.

The Summoners:
I've seen in a developer video that it is meant to be a distance harasser character with a small team force field protection support feature. This sounds good actually. I have some suggestions though. Firstly she was made a female which is not a bad idea, although making the Razielim females I think would have been better. Secondy she can throw these bright blue time bomb energy spheres onto the ground which cause damage: I think instead of damage, they should cause some penalty instead, not giving vampires too much ranged damage! Keeping them melee focused is a sweet key. Third her summons should burst out of the ground dispersing soil and rushing out of green etherial flames, thus connecting their underworld and ground affiliations in one aesthetic step. Her shield spell should have a more advanced version where it can be put on a ground separate from her, defending an area where her teamates might be. Fourth - by now I realize counting was a bad idea - her bodily functions... She should regain health much slower than others but should gain extra health from feeding somehow, like being able to make use of her victims' skin, perhaps even adding a short skinning animation at the end of the feast. She should also have a long tounge blood-syphon period of her feeding animation. Let's make her a viscious beast. She could even have some powers that create a few earth spikes protruding out of the ground with the help of otherworldly magic for area denial. She could have an ability where she lets most physical projectiles through her body taking only a small fraction of the damage for a period of time, with the help of spiritual powers. One final important aspect I'd like you to add is make her as relevant as others in an upclose and personal melee clump confrontation, because noone would want to play a third person character in a team deathmatch game that stays out of the action. Actually I'd give her the Disguise and Illusion powers, instead of the Deceiver, but more on this later...
I also need to mention her clothes as she is too much dressed as some ceremonial priestess which makes no sense. She needs to look like an average footsoldier in a large army that has limited resources. You are trying to depict the average Jane out of many, not an elaborate individual. Just think of for example Counter Strike counter terrorist models (just with females) where their clothes actually serve function and are limited by regulations. Just because she summons force fields and demons it won't make her justified to wear clergy attire and a headdress impractical to even a game of volleyball, not to mention war. Though to be fair her chest and shoulder plates are okay. Don't forget to consider the possibility to add clan tattos on her. Don't make her true skin color too pale yet, because SR1 fledgling devolved Melchaim were still retaining mortal skin colors.

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ZEPHONIM - The progeny of Zephon - Deceiver
I'm sorry but I am shocked how the Zephonim in this game makes almost no sense. In my opinion the biggest failure of this game is how they depict Zephonim and Dumahim. And considering this is a game about battles in a big war, ruining the two most influental warrior clans in Kain's empire is not a smart move in the creative department.
And somehow the Zephonim are even less in touch with their roots than the Dumahim.
Clan Zephonim:
- Their skinny bodies hide capabilities of natural born killers with their insect-like strength. Their thinness and raspy voice is also reminiscent of a somewhat insectoid mutation.
- Possibly the largest claws of all vampires.
- Their claws are so strong that they can sink them into most stone surfaces, making them the most effective and fast wall climbers in Kain's empire. (Not to mention they were the only wall climbing NPCs in SR1) Other vampires should instead need to hold onto ledges while climbing like "AC style Assassins".
- They have a preference of stealthy and/or flanking attacks when possible.
- They had an affinity to combine wall walking and stealth to ambush walking prey from above.
- They are comfortable walking on four limbs when it suits them.
- They look cool in skinny black leather trousers.
- They are one of two vampire species who frequently use their jaws biting in combat! (The other being the Rahabim)
- They somehow dismissed the need to use any ranged attacks. (Slightly similar to the original Dumahim)
- Only proven sensitivity to certain sound frequencies. (Not by overly sensitive hearing in the case of Turel.)
- Fast attack speed.
- They have been seen using a fleshy spiderweb-like resin secretion material to cover home territory walls and cover themselves while resting.
- Have a tendency to hang captured prey on ceilings, walls, floors! Either for shock warfare or just practical space use.
- Unusually large collar muscles and nearby bone protrusions.
- Suspected of mentally being able to communicate with any matter infused with their physiology like an insect hive-mind feature to some degree. Either closing a hive flesh/resin door, or minor telepathy between individuals.
- Susceptible to get trapped enfused to a stationary place at some elder stage.
- Their only home territory was seen as an old dusty gigantic Cathedral in a desert/canyon area.
<> Zephon: The master of military strategy, constant dishonest conspirator, and eventual paranoid leader of his clan. The second little brother, initially the smallest in size was the biggest opportunist in Nosgoth's era when Kain's own empire was law. If Dumah was the main muscle of the army, Zephon was the brains in martial strategy. Once he managed to almost single handedly spearhead an assault against a human superweapon that would have exterminated the vampires of the time, and not just won, but made it his personal home. How's that as a recommendation? And to top that, eventually he evolved a hive mind. Yes, some kind of network of telepathy for the poster boy of cunning! As a crude joke of fate, being cautious and defensive as a strategist, devolved into a stationary being forced to stay in his lair.

The Deceivers:
What has the deceiver got to do with the original statistics? Aside from the bare keyworld of stealth, backstabbing, and a rather fast attack speed, NOTHING. Why? I honestly don't understand. I'd give the Disguise and Illusion abilities to the Summoner to make her easier to get into melee combat, but all other skills make no sense. His hands almost look like normal human hands with slightly longer nails, quite far from what I would call a Zephonim clawed hand! Also his clothes. He looks more like an actor in a stage play than some kind of person aspiring to be in an army. And why the mask? It looks almost Hylden-esque. I'm dead serious, remember the water sprouting statues at the entrance to the water forge at Vorador's Mansion? His head is similar to that of those Hylden statues.
Even though I am greatful if my opinion will be heard and viewed, I will not go easy on this character: Was it so important to have a previously mentioned "Team Fortress $py" in the game instead of staying true to the franchise?
So instead of a sadistic mutant spiderguy, we got a shakespearean stage actor who has a light dagger. Nuff said.

But I'm not here to only be destructive, I'll now constructively elaborate on what kind of character should have been created with the given information. The Deceiver could still fulfill the role of disrupting enemy lines, but not by masquerade infiltration but by climbing on walls to get behind them and also on ceilings. Don't know about the other classes but the Deceiver could be the only class capable of clinging to ceilings, sneaking into a human guarded area from top hatches, perhaps ensnaring a person and sticking him/her to the ceiling for shock attacking the enemy lines. Not to mention that ceilings could be the only indoor roadway to get through area denial hindrances. He could also use a really low stance crawling locomotion ability to minimize target areas while closing in on battle - being able to do this could make him the only class suitable to enter some wall ducts traversing through walls on some varying distances (which ducts could be added to the leves with later patches). He could ensnare an occasional touched foe in a white net during melee combat. Biting animations during melee. If it is really necessary he can keep the temporary invisibility feature as it at least fits the concept, but it is really overkill both against seriousness and undermining evolution level continuity. Since stealth can be synonymous with scouting (and scouting could be safer while having the possibility to be invisible and walking even on ceilings) Deceiver players should be able to purchase an ability which after a long cooldown can warn the whole team of the whereabouts of the human team telepathically. I've found the Reaver pounce attack to be out of place and more fitting to a Zephonim. (More on Reavers later.) And oh man, get rid of the silly white phantom light knife, give him a decent metal one or better yet, a sharp bone, if giving him a decent locked animation with his innate claws is too much.
I won't take the effort on elaborating on how the clothes should be different. Make them even skinnier simplistic berserker dudes with varying degrees of black clothing. And for elder god's sake, lose that ridiculous mask!

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RAHABIM - The progeny of Rahab - !Yet missing class!
Now this is interesting. The only class yet not even touched by the game. Perhaps here is where I could make the biggest influence. Due to the unusual circumstances of this bloodline a little backstory is welcome. Rahab and his clan started to overcome the vampiric natural allergy to water, with the speculated help of the healing powers of human blood and blood magic. Literally over time they developed skills to fully submerge themselves in water without negative consequences and even reveling in their new added natural habitat. For this evolution we know that Kain was not considering this trait as transgression from his laws, and possibly did not even punish the clan at all, Rahab and Kain even had a few conversations after Raziel emerged as a Wraith. Kain also witnessed Rahab supporting gills before Raziel's execution. We also can safely assume that the Rahabim were the exclusive scouts for the empire in the long forgotten depths of Nosgoth's waters, and the elder god only knows what secrets and domans they found down there, perhaps the most secretive clan in a sense of an invisible underwater domain hidden from other vampiric and even mortal eyes. For reasons of suspected blood magic and similarly suspected discovery of long lost mystics secrets of underwater Nosgoth, Rahabim are feared as a mysterious mystic brotherhood with the most well protected dominion. In a clan against clan war, probably they are the only ones whose home base cannot be assaulted! Quite intriguing! They are also the only clan that can take over other clans' territories if they manage to flood them with water ensuring total dominance. Although the clan behaviour is more shown to be explorers than conquerors.
Clan Rahabim:
- No water allergy, unique swim ability, albeit not as fast and graceful as in SR1.
- Slow sluggish and monstrous land movement at later evolutionary stages of being too dependant on water.
- Natural development of spitting water from their mouths, although not very damaging to humans. Can also do this while half submerged in water.
- Prefering ranged attacks instead of melee on land when not on the offensive and their prey is distant. Nonetheless strong strikes with medium speed with leaps.
- Melee attacks also utilizing jaw bites.
- Physical features of cobras, fish fins, amphibian salamander headshape, and generally scary sea monsters. Light grey skin with darker patches and a faint blue tint.
- Slightly webbed hands and feet.
- Elaborate tattoo designs and jewelry.
- Lowered resistance to even Nosgoth's smoke filtered stray sunrays.
- Underwater slime-coccoon pupation and healing.
- Eventual confinement to stay in water. Although not confirmed for all individuals.
- Their only observed home territory was a watery area around the old Drowned Abbey, although who knows how many underwater areas they might have claimed unrestrained.
<> Rahab: What is there to be said about the first ever vampire with a blood curse to have no water allergy? It is unimaginable how large an empire could he have created in the depths and along the coastlines. Most blindly obedient son of his father even minutes before his vampiric death, his evolution was somehow not considered a transgression, possibly because Kain's plans are unfathomable. Probably noone who's not a Rahabim has ever seen the true extent of Rahab's kingdom. He might be the most mysterious son of all six, nothing else is needed to be said.

Now how to make this into a playable class? Let's call them...
The Stalkers
His role in the Nosgothgame army? Well considering Land is covered by Reavers and Tyrants, Air is handled by Sentinels, and Summoners should have some affinity with underground Earth themes, it is just inevitable that Rahabim should be able to traverse Water environments like parts of lakes, shores, and possibly later added underwater canals connecting areas of the maps, making ambush spots. These underwater canals should be added with later map patches. Other vampires should be repelled by such watery hazards, and Humans should be inhibited to submerge medling too deep into Rahabim canals, or just drown not being able to support their equipments weight. Also near water ambush assassinsations should also be a sight for fan eyes. And likewise as Summoners as in somekind of support role mostly, so could Rahabim be. Now it is never a too bad idea to get a healer in a team formation, but not overpowering our little already bestial favorites... due to blood magic the Rahabim should accelerate the healing of only one of his teammates who has the lowest amount of points in health in a 5-8 meter radius when not running just walking. The Rahabim did not reveal to the other clans how they manage to do this. This also could encourage teamplay, a Rahabim healer held back sometimes as a supporter, sluggishly approaching as a menace. His water spitting ability could be used as an actual more or less unhindered ranged attack the vampires could use at great liberty, but at the cost of exposing the shooter from a surprise direction, having really low damage, firing only in a straight line, projectile trajectory needs a user calculation in drop mechanics, and the firing animation hindering the healing ability for the duration of the animation time even while not running. Although we cannot have a class that constantly has liquid spraying out of his mouth, it's reload time needs to be sensible, and it should be reloaded into a maximum top amount by submerging in water, like if they submerge they fill up one of their organs with figuratively speaking "6 bullets". Ranged attacker, healer, water ambush attacker, and a shock element, it would be a golden strategy to decide which approach to use when and how. Rahabims could be the center of any main attack force once the scouts already found the foe. Due to his light sensitivity, he could heal himself slower than a Summoner, but when submerged underwater he might get a significant bonus. At close range, he could have a spell of some sorts to cause the victims blood to boil on touched area. He could also throw chemical grenades on the floor to make it sticky and slow to progress on which are made of water, blood, and their saliva. An exciting and marketable mechanic would be making them explode a small amount of water after death at a let's say 1 meter radius damaging all friendly vampires caught in it.
Their physical appearance, tattos, and jewelry, and the addition of gills all make marvelous possibilities of skins and player aesthetics. The Rahabim should be the last and only one class whose heads still support hair, and in fact it should be long in a warrior fashion.

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DUMAHIM - The progeny of Dumah - Reaver
Possibly gained the famed nickname of Reavers after the Blood Reaver/Soul Reaver sword because clan Dumahim so much screams with a natural military application of their physiology. "The most versatile soldiers." What I think is out of place is the use of their clawed glove weapons, almost like prosthetic extensions, pretty much out of character from a clan led by the most arrogant progenitor of all 6. Let me tell you why. Dumah was arrogant in their clan's military success so much that even in his evolved/devolved state he accidentally allowed himself to be ambushed by human vampire hunters and incapacitated. His progeny lacked any kind of unusually long clawed hands and were more seen using their fists when unarmed. Their main evolution is hardened skin and sturdiness, and bare in mind that their evolution meant the least devolution of all observed clans (although we still could not know if Dumah would have been even more devolved if he wasn't incapacitated for years). Dumah was literally a towering brute tank brawler! An arrogant bulldozer leader who is sometimes with odds with other clans, clans who have naturally larger claws, would not favor the offensive methods of the enemy. Instead he would think of something else, something practical, technical. Also, as architects of a large technical furnace area (perhaps with some Turelim aid) it is safe to presume, that Dumahim could have been more keen and eager to use actual swords to complement themselves. Perhaps smeltering their own metal swords at furnaces (not just heating their snowy encalve). The Dumahim are besides being perfect soldiers, are not really outstanding, but importantly lacking any big drawbacks.
Clan Dumahim:
- Their skin started to mimic the hardness of their worn armor, possibly even fusing together with said armor making them unusually sturdy.
- Their resiliance made them excellent survivalists in the harsh varied conditions of wasteland Nosgoth, found in the most areas.
- Fast but not too strong attack speed.
- Long tounge that latches out further than arms reach actually usable as an offensive limb in hand-to-hand combat.
- Aging from for example fledgling to adults is noticably accompanied by overall mass gain.
- Seen as the most agressive vampires, succumbing to infighting among themselves, and occasionally teaming up against other kinds of vampires.
- Possibly as a normal evolutionary trait, at really advanced stages individuals can destructively influence the air pressure in a certain small area with the help of spectral energy, creating a strong force. In SR1 due to the gameplay mechanics, it was called Constrict.
- Their territory was a snowy cold secluded kingdom.
<> Dumah: The natural born warrior and the main backbone of the imperial army. Few have been so at home in war during one's years being able to act, albeit not being the strongest of the brothers, was the most effective one man army military force at least since perhaps his once "mortal" faction leader Malek (the guardian of Conflict, and) the supernatural hammerhead of the Sarafan Order. It wasn't his lacking of any kind of martial supremacy that led to his downfall, but rather the clinically colossal overconfidence and egoism that made him let his guard down enough to incapacitate him and scatter his clan. Talk about irony. And even then due to him being a survivor he was the only lieutenant to manage to become a revived vampire able to feed on both blood and soul life energy. This ultimately means he was even the toughest warrior in his nearby vicinity in the underworld. Interestingly he even managed to shift at will into the spectral realm to do combat there after he was resurrected, which was unusual ever for a wraith or a revived vampire. The strong conquering will of conflict. And to top it all: Series art director Daniel Cabuco said he "always saw Dumah as extremely skilled in weapons..."

The Reavers:
Aside from a few minor differences, the Reaver is not bad. The shockwave is more at home here, since Dumah was stomping a lot. I would absolutely change the clawed gloves to swords, give the pounce to the Deceiver, therefore get rid of the growling, give him a melee tongue and he's all set. The swords could include claymores, greatswords, flamberges, and even an axe perhaps. To replace the pounce, I'd give him a wide sweeping blade motion against multiple targets! The sweep attack could be weaker than a normal strike when hitting only one foe, but gain bonuses upon also connecting with one or two other targets! This could prevent abuse but really worth attacking several humans coupled together. Somehow constrict could be added in a mild way, if done correctly, it could really spice up gameplay, do not shy away from it. Perhaps he could have an execution where he literally squashes the entrails of his victim he touches with pressure.
I must mention that I am really impressed with his visage, the body build is believable, his face and warpaint is a welcome and cool surprise, his armors are spot on, now he only needs a sword instead of his gloves. The other visuals I am also sold on are the Sentinels, but later on them.

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TURELIM - The progeny of Turel - Tyrant
Ironic that I've always imagined Turel, the de facto second in command after Raziel to be a Tyrant of a leader, forced to govern the vampire race harshly after his only elder brother's disappearance and Kain's absence, to keep all the power plays at bay... The Tyrant is perhaps a little too unimaginative, but this might not be the game's fault, it is just how it seems, all Tyrant features - except the shockvave and the ground slam - play and feel how a Turelim should. But there are still some loose ends that could be incorporated as game elements!
Clan Turelim:
- As opposed to all other clans gaining supernatural strength with vampirism, Turelim seem to gain actual biological muscles that surpass the afforementioned counterparts. They have the most strength compared to their body.
- Developing acute hearing and smell as sharper senses, later stages showcase elongated ears, this hearing later can be a liability in certain situations.
- Served the empire as the strongest soldiers, creators and operators of machinery (and the smokestack), high profile guards, and most important clan since the dethroning of the Razielim.
- Were the hardest to stun and would be stunned for the shortest period of time.
- Quick strong strikes and lightning reflexes.
- Developed telekinetical powers to manipulate and thus harm objects and individuals from a distance. The attacking form of this occurence can be viewed as a projectile for observational reasons, which would not be particularly damaging by itself, but SR1 showcased it otherwise for gameplay reasons.
- Developed physical features that resembled a wingless bat, albeit more muscular. Later a more hairy face and at an elder state, hindered by being confined to a quadrupedal locomotion method with unusual backward bending knees.
- Also at some state they develop an outer layer around their mouth that works as a more segmented lower jaw enabling a dangerous overbite or just an intimidation method.
- Suspected to lose a significant amount of their eyesight after their heightened hearing and smell taking over their brain's locational segments.
- Also just suspected to lose sanity over time.
- Prefering to live by hot, and volcanic areas unless ordered to do special tasks.
<> Turel: This clan had it's progenitor abducted with some time traveling method back to the time period when Kain became a vampire; into Avernus Cathedral by some foolish unknowing Hylden-worshipping cult for an old entity called Hash'ak'gik, which had it's ceremonies led by the human necromancer Mortanius, the last guardian of the pillar of death. The fledgling vampire Kain never saw the devolved Turel, but we cannot say if it didn't happen perhaps the other way around. Turel became a so called Blood God of Avernus Cathedral, a ceremonial state only to give a bodily vessel to Hylden demons managing to come into Nosgoth's existence from long banishment, his body was seen fit as some kind of a conduit or storage for demon spirits. Turel himself is always shifting between the roles of the physically strongest bestial son of Kain, and technological inventor, the engine of industry. Additionally out of all the sons, the vampire ability of telekinesis was originally only inherited by Turel, and he even managed to participate in developing a method to infuse this gift into an artifact he could give to others to either give them the power or strengthen said power in them (details yet unknown). In the end, the tragedy of Turel was that even as the strongest vampire warlord after Raziel's execution (even in his impeded sight, oversensitive hearing, lost sanity, and being confined to quadruped motion), in the end fate has made him nothing more than a mad puppet container of Hylden demons.

The Tyrants:
The Tyrant feels and plays well, with some minor needed tweaks. First of all, the shockwave is more fitting for the Reaver, except without the earth protrusions. Secondly the ground slam attack is comically high, and the Tyrant looks like Ang Lee's gummy bear Hulk bouncng around the map! The jump trajectory really needs to be lower. I understand it was meant to be similar like a Left4Dead tank, but this fortunately does not ruin him. And this concludes what needs to ba taken away from gameplay, all other things feel like a Turelim. Now to enhance it. With their strength they should be equipped to place obstacles more in the center of a street from the sides, or rip off certain walls from human shelters, perhaps ram through weak wooden walls. His hearing should pinpoint where or which direction he last heard human gunshot sounds on the minimap on an infinite detection range but a limited locating distance. Should be able to manipulate primitive machinery that somehow changes the map to vex human planning, like moving maze elements onto the map. He should be able to send and outward ring of telekinetic wave that interrupts any human action and stops them in their tracks for 1.5 seconds in a 6 or so meter radius. Occasionally at seemingly random times like 5 minutes after the level start because of innate insanity, the Tyrant should give out an unwelcomed enraged battle roar that gives away his position. Like a gamble, when will the Turelim blow the cover of the team. These are my suggestions.
Gilded Colossus, Turelim Platemail, and Evolved Turelim skins were the one I liked, but the others were really bad, and the class still needs a believable average footman attire. Try studded leather armor! Unfortunately the skins I didn't like suffered a lot from the games cartoony graphics direction and overall wacky color scheme compared to the originial franchise, and they look comical.

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RAZIELIM - The progeny of Raziel - Sentinel
Another oddball class, but rather cool! First of all, I am happy how the Razielim playability is portrayed in Nosgothgame, a lot of us fans are satisfied that the developers managed to make it like we could just imagine it in our wildest dreams, hands down great job! The clan received justice. His abilities are perfect as they are. I'd just elaborate on them.
I'll only detail SR1 information on the clan, since all others actually came from Nosgothgame.
Clan Razielim:
- Their territory is reminiscent of elaborate architecture showcasing imperial might, conquest, and aristocracy. Containing grandiose hallways, cavern fortresses, even drawbridge mechanisms separating the land to 4-5 different areas. Some passages look like a wall was built into a corridor to seal away passageways. Wonder why this is... (Crystal Dynamics!!!)
- The clan was eagerly decimated by the other clans after Kain had allowed it to happen. Needless to say they were not fully wiped out. Hurray for fan pressure!!
- Their clan was considered an aristocratic bloodline among vampire standards of the time. Or should I say "high blood".
<> Raziel: And here we have the most important son of Kain for those of you who don't know him. A high ranking leader in life, first born lieutenant of Kain, and eventual spirit of vengeance as the only person in the world to have a free will against fate and time. As a vampire, he managed to be the most important, most influential, and most adept warrior without being the strongest, the sturdiest, the scarisest, not the most cunning, and with the usual water ellergy. How he managed this is still an unexplained phenomena in the franchise, but my guess is some form of supernatural agility, and of course peaceful politics in an aristocratic way. Our main blue little hero is the tragic sacrificed center of the whole story, and always an unknowing personal weapon of Kain finding his way back to him.
The Sentinels:
The class plays absolutely perfect. Flying is easy and it's mechanics are logical. Abduction is a dream come true and has a healthy challenge to it. Wing flap attacks are really imaginative. Dive bombing is okay. Echolocation is almost what I would have thought of. Impale/puncture ideas come as natural. It all feels good. Now I'd add to them some abilities how they could use their legs for attacking! Also, there could be an alternative to Echolocation which came into my mind before I even knew it similarly existed: A loud shriek that momentarily distorts human vision and could be used as a tactic to divert attention to the Sentinel, him being frail as he is would put him in danger, this sound could either mean the opposite direction where the land offensive will come from, or completely the contrary to trick them, but either way it could endanger him, so it might be a good idea to emit it from a covered location. Additionally when humans hear this scream and see their screen distorted, this could ultimately mean that the enemy already knows their whereabouts(, or not).
Now their appearance. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? I'm baffled. What? I mean erm... what??? I don't like them. They look over illustrated and devolved into a direction which I just don't see how this could have happened. It is almost like the Hylden mixed with the Starcraft Zerg, with a little unexplainable clothes sprinkled on top. Or more like someone unfortunately decided to try to copy some designs of Guillermo DelToro and his film creatures, but ended up over doing something which should not have been done in the first place. Any intentional Hylden similarity is of course a revolting idea, unless it is because Kain drank the blood of the Seer. The evolved skin is at least okay, and it's fine the way it is, but the others are just like... like I try to stare at them for like 5 minutes without actually understanding what my eyes are looking at. Some wing designs seem to have some insectoid properties, some skin also contains chitin aesthetics. Now this is just insane, these things should have been left to the Zephonim. See what I mean by out of place inconsistencies and mixed up direction? Razielim Sentinels should have never lost the bat wing appearances, just think, that now in Nosgothgame no one has bat features. I think they really need reimagining. Love the horned helmet design though. (But not the different hammerheads.)
Additionally I can offer one non-canon skin to be added to Sentinels: Ancient blue skinned black feathery-winged vampire. Yes, it would not make sense in a canon way, but could be a cool addition. The ends of their wings should wear spike weapons to make the piercing motions believable. Like a fun easter egg and a chance to have feathery wings. Just a small fun addition like when a Tomb Raider game had Kain and Raziel as player models.

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As an explanation on innate vampire claw vs weapon use let me create an order of unarmed melee strength starting from strongest and heading towards weakest.
1. Zephonim - In pure simple claw strength, they lead, even managing to grip into stone
2. Turelim - Having that amount of muscles has serious benefits to claws
3. Razielim - Although they are irrelevant here, cause this list should be about well nourished undevolved healthy vampires, it's how they use their claws that brings them success
4. Rahabim - When separating stronger and weaker claw power, these guys should be waaay over on the strong side even while being the last in category
5. Dumahim - Although not last in order, and could punch stronger than the amount of claw damage dished out, being stronger than the last does not make a winning formula, this is why I suggest giving them melee weapons like swords
6. Melchahim - While their power does not lie in physicalities, their claws are still fatal to a human

I might be overthinking things, but haha what the hell!
Let's create a scale! On a scale of 1 to 20, where 1 is human, and 20 is Kain, their grips should be something like:
Zephonim : 18
Turelim : 17
Razielim : 15
Rahabim : 14
Dumahim : 11
Melchahim : 8
This is just to explain why the Dumahim should have swords. One pair of clawed gloves for one or a few induviduals might be understandable, but as military regulation gear for the whole Dumahim army instead of swords makes perfectly no sense (for previously mentioned reasons).
Additionally, it shows that Zephonim should be the fastest and best wall scalers, all others should climb using ledges. This requires reanimation.

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There you have it, here is my detailed opinion about the game. Somewhere flashy, somewhere not so bright, but hey, some people sometimes say that criticism is always constructive. My writing should be viewed in every moment as made by someone who is a strict fan, therefore it gets more understood while it all reads like a nitpick extravaganza. But I always took the effort of not recklessly trampling over the developers work, I am purely driven by love of the games and logic, unleashing my creative thinking whenever I can. I tried not to hurt any feelings, be factual, give the factual text a literary coating for a more cohesive and less dry read, and ultimately using Soul Reaver 1 as my inspiration. The overall lesson is that the game does not need too many changes to perfectly showcase a simple team deathmatch brawl set in the War for Nosgoth times, but to win the love of hardcore fans of the story, we need a little more precision. But I'm serious, not much is needed. If all problems I mentioned get addressed, it won't matter one bit that the game itself lacks a drama driven single player campaign experience (slightly thanks to the online lore). Hopefully one day we even get a new story game. Now the strangest thing is that this game takes too long to develop.

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A bonus section of this thread. Map ideas! In hope of still being in time to make input, let's speak about the next map coming soon, Crucible, the long awaited Turelim homegrounds and industrial center. Finally we get a glimpse of what was cut from SR1! What I think is well due to be showcased on the map are the following things:
1. At least up close explanations on how the/a smokestack works, if not actually present.
2. References or recognisable pathways that might lead to the Sundial and the Lighthouse.
3. Hints and/or explanations on the Lighthouse and it's purpose.
4. Areas where players could jump over narrow ledges above rivers of magma to reach certain other areas of the map. The ascending heat could slightly damage humans.
5. Naturally some clan banners.
6. Perhaps the most important: Pupating grounds with one Turelim trapped in his "coccoon" by some accident. It is okay to include one such area here also, cause having several of these could be an explanation why the clan could still be so organized in SR1 even after their patriarch is abducted. (Same cannot be said about wandering Dumahim.) Daniel Cabuco's orignial pupation idea was "Eggs like Zephon, which you would have to crawl by not to activate."
7. As an extra, to mimic the cut area from the early SR1 video demo, it could have some stone ramps as heightened walkways.

I have other ideas for later maps!
# One map containing the Sarafan Chapel of SR1 with both rooms and the ship, all somehow connected to one of the human factions. Stained glass murals, holding cells, Valkyre window... Makes something out of this.
# In front of the Human Citadel's main gates and high fortification walls. A place where the vampires somehow cannot get through due to great barricading and being spread thin in the war. Although the citadel not being a stronghold for the human war effort, it's their natural objective to defend it at all costs since innocent mortal people live there. Later in SR1 it gets actually revealed that even though greatly underpopulated of some reason, the citadel never got conquered.
# Multi level cliffside coastline on the far east shores of the Great Southern Sea area of known Nosgoth, where due to cataclysms, land patches of the once Eternal Prison have collided with the main land and look like unexplainable maze areas with space warping effects. Some eternal ground pieces could float which should make platforming gameplay a more substantial element of this level. The design should offer us some maze-like elements, who am I kidding, there could even be an actual big maze, how's that for a gameplay element? Vampires can climb and fly, humans can only walk. Although none of the factions should know what exactly are they witnessing, not knowing of the prison, both forces could be interested in it due to scouting and accidentally meeting there to check the phenomena out.
# Termogent Forest area with clearings, housing ruins, ending in one direction at a small lakeshore, swamp patches, and perhaps tree house hunting stations built by humans. The unique fun in this level could be that vampires might be adept at climbing trees and controlling airborne Sentinels between narrow spaces among a ton of trees might look awesome. There could be also several sniping opportunities against vampires but in really narrow angles, and sneaky terrain ambush spots to put human cattle down. There could even be a swamp pit with deadly fumes rising from beneath the water which vampires could cross by small rock platform jumping while not touching the water, but humans could die instantly when dropped in from a Sentinel's clutches. The area could have a ruin shrine to Bane the Druid just as a small visual eye candy. Forest, Rangers, Bane, it all adds up. The Termogent Forest is so in the middle of known Nosgoth it is just natural to have a forest themed arena. Just as a hint, go see the movie Underworld: Rise of the Lycans to see awesome possibilities of forest warfare.
# Stahlberg. This could be one of the major outposts of the human opposition in this war. Remember that in this timeline, if I'm not mistaken, King William is a martyr and his would be domain would serve as a great symbolical rallying point for such an uprising. Some parts of the city on a higher hill could have small patches of snow where the vampires get damaged when walking on the ground (except Rahabim). A quite prepared human city where they could utilize guerrilla warfare against vampires. Appearing in one cottage and disappearing in another, somehow making it tricky to follow them into a melee confrontation. Even going as far as being launched by a catapult into leather skin sheets in just one particular place to escape large distances fast. There could be an obvious strategy to this, like not to jump into vampire pounces or Sentinel abductions. There could be an unfinished towering giant sword monument glimpsing in the grey weak daylight where they were orignially planning to build the statue of the Nemesis.
# Weirstein, a valley settlement north of Avernus between the Plains of Blood and Uschtenheim. This town could have a significant underground cave network that could be safe from Sentinel flight albeit kind of a deathtrap against suicidal Tyrants. A geographical sector showcasing grassy (brown), rocky, watery, and some volcanic areas all together. Now the main attraction of this area could be a curious place, a small cliffside cave entrance (more to the east) technically separating the whole level into two, because entering it's opening of an outwardly small looking cave takes the player into a seemingly huge indoor cavern which looks like it would not fin in normally, but even has room for Sentinel flight. (Imagine the cave entrance with Portal mechanics but in an arcane way.) The reason behind this is because it is the inherent home of all the energy guardians ever existed. The inside of the cave could not be as dead as the rest of wasteland Nosgoth, so it could seem almost well kept due to rampant energy lingering. There should be a huge stone carving mural on one of the cave walls depicting DeJoule with great never before seen detail. Now for a twist: The cave that's entrance seems to hide a small indoor area from the outside, but bigger on the inside, should have a secondary entrance at the outside valley underground cave network. So the upper energist cave has two entrances, one that connects from the underground like normal, and one at the top cave entrance that looks like the opening goes into a small cave. In other words, if you go the underground route, you advance normally, if you go through the cliffside cave, you need to go through some kind of invisible portal that takes you to a place that seems bigger on the inside, but both routes take you to the very same place. The valley area should be a natural strategic area to defend by the humans, and for the vampires it is so close to a lot of other points of interest that it must be taken for the empire.
# It would be nice to have a new settlement at the south-easternmost part of known Nosgoth, much more south-east than Willendorf or the Provincial Mines. It would be a completely unseen place. This map could have a thick fog on it making sniping and scouting extremely difficult. How about a Willendorf prison colony now a torn civilian village with Army of the Last Hope statues? The area could have a big ruin of a Cabal hideout, Kain earlier trained his lieutenants that if they recieve word that humans get near the area, drive them out. So humans arrive seeking allies, witnessed by a Zephonim scout who warns the lieutenants, and let slip the dogs of war! This place also needs a german name like most locations in the franchise, because it is related to Willendorf which is also german (austrian).

And one important thing I'd like to mention about the levels. I think Zephon's Silenced Cathedral should NOT be seen as an open battlegound in the conventional Nosgothgame team deathmatch mode, because to me it feels like an area that should have been taken over long before Raziel's exectuion. The reason I mention this is there are some actual vampire hunters there in SR1, but let's leave them to be explained in some other event.

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I can't help but meddle in the affairs of men. I'll give you hints on what kinds of humans should the two others be. Here is my creative input. So what do we have so far?

HUNTERS - Iron Guard Vampire Hunters
Symbolically formed at Iron Pass near Valeholm
Using a Crossbow - Which is mostly about rapid firing.

ALCHEMISTS - Red Sisters of Anacrothe
Inspired by the guardian, originating from some Deserts Beyond the Great Southern Sea
Using a Hand Cannon - Which is about short distance trajectory launching chemical grenades.

SCOUTS - The Watchers
Warrior society from Dark Eden, fighters of the human cause
Using a Bow and Arrows - Which is about long range precision shots with great power.

PROPHETS - Lost Seers of Avernus (possibly inspired by cave murals in SR1 Oracle Cave)
Escaped Avernus Cathedral when hell broke loose, found new purpose near Willendorf
Using multibarreled pistols, handguns - Which is a mix between range and power

After the Hunter and the Scout there is no other chance to create really cool ones :)
What I'm suggesting, with backstory I made up:

New human #1:
Janos after being resurrected and sent Raziel to the spirit forge, grabbed the remaining Feral Humans and dropped them off south-west from the Lake of Tears before returning back to the citadel. These feral humans over centuries secretly honed their skills into being incredible warriors, stayed hidden from normal mortal eyes, only keeping in touch with the outside world through a small nearby settlement who harbored them as a secret. Their traditions kept the memories of the winged blue angelic masters, and the agressive frightening invader Kain, and still remained in a belief that the two races are separate. Once they found a hidden Hylden armory which they managed to ransack, and ever since then they slowly but steadily became users of glyph magic objects through worn infused armor suits. Noone knows where they found the armory, but the Watchers are sure it wasn't Meridian. They created with their primitive understanding a shotgun like weapon which was operated with armors' glyph energy and shot accelerated shrapnel and nails. This is the unexplained shotgun in Moebius' museum in BO1 and that is why it was so out of place until now for vampire eyes. When the present conflict came, they mysteriously appeared to join the front lines, exterminating vampires with a passion, but secretly with a misguided agenda hoping to serve the ancients. (Let's just say the Hylden technology of infusing sarafan armors with glyph energy existed in orignial timelines also, it was just Kain's adventures that became different after SR2.) There's one catch. Using these armors makes them enraged with Hylden anger and occasionally flashing green eyes. They do not share their glyph understanding with others, and even refuse to speak without their native language when absolutely not necessary to communicate with other humans.
Summary:
REPULSERS
Imagine a savage athletic wildman with a bestial posture, their heads and back covered with animal manes and feathery decorations, wearing blue warpaint stripes on face, wearing sarafan-esque heavy plate armor which tends to glow in some places with an alternating yellow/green color, and a primitive shotgun observably channeling the glyph energy from the armor, shooting flak which is only effective at close proximity and has really low rate of fire but tremendous power. They are easily noticable, but tough to damage. Their armor can have a special ability that is a glyph energy outward shockwave pushing the vampires away from himself, hereby creating the center of a human group. When they die, somehow they managed to "convince" the glyph forces to detonate their armor after a few seconds, as their way of ensuring not to give their finesse into the wrong hands. As for a slight melee combat last resort, they even have a wristblade. NOT an overgrown one!


New human #2:
When the Eternal Prison collapsed into the mainland (my idea), a certain type of humans got loose, overcame the situation and escaped into the mountains a decade before nearby conflict emerged. They seemed to be tortured just under a limit where they would not loose their sane allegiance towards humanity, but badly scarred on the outside. Their imprisonment years have somehow honed their skills in a way that they can sense incoming danger as a form of precognition, no doubt the result of the prison's time based distortion properties. Before their imprisonment they've been warriors, after their escape they returned to the lifestyle. With their extraordinary skills, they are the only ones mad enough to take on vampires in close combat, thus inspiring others nearby. They found a small mountain community with an exceptional amount of inherited weapons from their ancestors, the Serioli. The once prisoners became the new warriors protecting this small community, and thus humanity against vampires, who they think were responsible for their imprisonment. (They know nothing of the Hylden.)
Summary:
VINDICATORS
I've been a bit sneaky and managed to take a glimpse at a teaser silouette that you were planning to release a melee human soon with shield and sword. This could be them. The shield should work like Kain's BO2 block mechanism, when active it hinders attack. Variations for the weapon could be: Gladius, Broadsword, Spear, and Mace. They should not be fully taken out of ranged participation, they should have an ability which shoots a spiked razorblade from a flat chest-mounted cannon of theirs, which can go through multiple targets when aligned. Their inspire ability should give all nearby allies a 5-10% damage resistance and speed up ability cooldown times. They could have a precognitive sense, the player could see a flashing indicator when a vampire is nearby. They should have scarred skin all over their body due to prison torture.

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Oh and before I finish, the game REALLY screams for an objective based gametype. Imagine Unreal Tournament's Assault mode. Vampires or Humans needing to complete different tasks on the map to advance the battle. This really would add to a sense of world scale war between the two factions. Every first and last objective on a map could be timed so that actual tactical advances won't start too early in a rushing fashion, and that the levels don't end too early. And BOOOM now we have an assymetrical team deathmatch with and objective based gameplay. Once the games finishes BETA status, it could be huge. Plunge the fate of planets into chaos!

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But let's just put a rest to this brainstorm for now, you readers accompanied me into a long journey. I hope you liked my writing, until next time, meanwhile enjoy the gameplay of ...




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http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121229083911/legacyofkain/images/b/b7/SR2-Screenshot-Enemy-Dumah.png

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FireWorks_
5th Dec 2014, 08:15
tl;dr...

RainaAudron
5th Dec 2014, 10:59
Indeed that is a long read :D I think it would be easier if the big blocks of text were divided into paragraphs :)
Let me point out some things though:


I've met "Raina Audron" (for those of you who may know) and she and her fiancéé suggested I appear with this topic here elaborating further on the subject.
Hehe, I´m flattered, however, I do not have a fiancé at present, lol!


They can sometimes use their long tongue to feed on corpses.
That is the trait of the fledgling Dumahim, not Melchahim.


His progeny lacked any kind of unusually long clawed hands and were more seen using their fists when unarmed
The adults had weapons attached to one of their arms, but couldn´t use them anymore as they went feral.


Eventual confinement to stay in water.
The SR1 manual mentions they are equally dangerous on land and sea and since they still have legs, they appear to be amphibian, rather than bound by water only (unlike Rahab).


The clan received justice. His abilities are perfect as they are.
I´d disagree here, he really should have more magic based abilities (not grenades).


2. References or recognisable pathways that might lead to the Sundial and the Lighthouse.
3. Hints and/or explanations on the Lighthouse and it's purpose.
Turelim have nothing to do with the Lighthouse really, they were dropped there in the last minute instead of the Dumahim, since their own territory was cut from SR1.


These feral humans over centuries secretly honed their skills into being incredible warriors, stayed hidden from normal mortal eyes, only keeping in touch with the outside world through a small nearby settlement who harbored them as a secret.
Feral humans were eradicated by Kain in the Sarafan era and are not present 500 years later. Besides, the Vampire Citadel was destroyed by the EG after Defiance (just like the Lost City was pulled into Underworld by him). The probability of any of them surviving is highly unlikely.

Vampmaster
5th Dec 2014, 11:32
@DLN,

I think some abilities that give the effect of Blood Omen's flesh and chaos armor could work well for either the Melchahim or the Rahabim. For Melchahim, I was really keen of the idea of it being weak, but having a deterrent on attacking it, so while the temporary chaos armor effect is active, players put themselves at risk just by attacking. The flesh armor would also be a temporary effect and would essentially do what you said about recovering health from melee attacks.

If the Melchahim already has abilities planned out, those abilities would also fit pretty well for the Rahabim. The idea of reptile/snake as a halfway stage between mammal and fish has been brought up several times before. A skin shedding ability would go great with a snake-like theme and also with Rahab's keenness to adapt to his surroundings. The abilities I mentioned previously could activate as a result of the Rahabim shedding its skin.

I'm totally agreed on the shark bite for the Rahabim. They can't let those massive teeth go to waste. I think the Termogent forest would be more suited for the Rahabim than humans though, as it would make the perfect place for them to adapt to the water without having to go in at the proverbial deep end. Nice shallow waters in the swamps and lots of shade from the trees to protect them from the sun that they were so weak against. The forest should be shown to be in a dying state as a sign of the corruption afflicting the land. There would have to be some sort of cenotaph for Vorador around there. I think Kain would still have a bit of respect for Vorador however things turned out between them.

@Raina, the SR1 manual suggests there were feral humans other than the one living in the Citadel. I'm not saying they were anything like the ones in Defiance, but Raziel still describes them as "feral".

RainaAudron
5th Dec 2014, 13:14
@Raina, the SR1 manual suggests there were feral humans other than the one living in the Citadel. I'm not saying they were anything like the ones in Defiance, but Raziel still describes them as "feral".

I meant that they can´t be the same ones as seen in Defiance.

Gamewithnocontinue
5th Dec 2014, 14:14
Feral humans were eradicated by Kain in the Sarafan era and are not present 500 years later. Besides, the Vampire Citadel was destroyed by the EG after Defiance (just like the Lost City was pulled into Underworld by him). The probability of any of them surviving is highly unlikely.
Sorry, but I think you're talking about 4 - rth timeline and Nosgoth is in 2 timeline (almost wrote 1) between BO and SR1, and according to that Kain would be killed by Raziel with Reaver (dk if its Blood or Soul).
If I missed something then ...

13oundary
5th Dec 2014, 14:46
I'm going to give you my honest opinion from the perspective of someone who is more of a gameplay focused gamer than story, although I did play LoK:SR and SR2... but I woulda been fairly young at the time and would have been at the stage where I skipped every cutscene to get back to playing the game. So just about everything I comment on will be gameplay related, since I care little about the aesthetics of the game... other than the atmosphere that it creates (which is already really good for me).



TL;DR:
- I'll need to see the summoner in game before I have any real opinion on the class, so far though I love the idea/concept behind it. I just hope you can switch between controlling your summon and your vampire for micro plays, and I like the ideas about the differences in passive regen and feed regen for a predominantly ranged vampire.

- Deceiver wall crawling like AvP Aliens sounds amazing! I would avoid changing the wall climbing mechanic for the other classes however, to keep system requirements low; though I'm not sure myself how much of an impact it would actually have... I just get the feeling that it would be detrimental.

- Vampires are beginning to look a bit support heavy considering the relative power of the humans.

- Destructive/dynamic environments sound cool... but will likely push down the number of possible players due to system requirements. Again, I can't be sure of this... I just think that it would have that effect. More ram load of the animations and processor requirements for the physics of destruction... baking lighting for static objects is also a good optimisation technique that can't be used with dynamic and destructive environments. Again... this isn't my business so I don't actually know for sure.

- RNG bad, pls no.

- Games take ages to make, several years usually... I'm really glad that I get to be a part of this game's development.






Summoner

Firstly she was made a female which is not a bad idea, although making the Razielim females I think would have been better.

Please explain why you think the Razielim would be better as female? Just saying that it would, without reason, kind of irks me... especially considering the wall of text.


not giving vampires too much ranged damage!

The new classes, seemingly, are to fill the gaps and be the "odd ones out" in that the humans now have a melee range proficient character and the vampires have a ranged proficient character. How they balance it with choking haze, or the sent's throwing bomb will be difficult, yes, but I think this is needed.


Her shield spell should have a more advanced version where it can be put on a ground separate from her, defending an area where her teamates might be.

Maybe, but this would have some serious implications with a ground shield/mind dominate combo or a really low hp tyrant using rage and ground spike or something... for mind dominate it would probably be ok given that they'll likely be the 2 squishiest classes... though the summoner would(should) really never be in the firing line.


She should regain health much slower than others but should gain extra health from feeding somehow, like being able to make use of her victims' skin, perhaps even adding a short skinning animation at the end of the feast.

I actually really like this idea, mainly due to my previous statement about never being in the firing line, it would mean getting the summoner to trigger the passive regen would likely be much easier, as long as a fight was even or you were back far enough to avoid a push from the humans (though I will have to see the actual gameplay of the summoner).


One final important aspect I'd like you to add is make her as relevant as others in an upclose and personal melee clump confrontation, because noone would want to play a third person character in a team deathmatch game that stays out of the action.

I would... in fact the summoner has excited me as a character concept since the moment I saw/read about it... I often play dominate and illusion based heroes in the game DotA 2... where how well you micro the creatures that you control or the illusions that you create and your hero can make your character triply as powerful... the main thing I want to see for the summoner is the ability to 'tab' between your summon and yourself for high micro plays... In fact it would be even better if you could hold right click to 'auto-target' a human as your summon, leaving it to constantly auto attack (albeit, badly) so that you can 'tab' to your vampire and continue your battle. Not saying this is what is planned... but it would tickly my micro tendencies.




Deciever

(Not to mention they were the only wall climbing NPCs in SR1) Other vampires should instead need to hold onto ledges while climbing like "AC style Assassins"

Now, I'm not 100% sure about this... but adding the edge-detection and animation blending that you're talking about here should massively increase the PC performance required to play the game... which is almost always a bad thing when you are trying to make money from micro transactions. The more people that play, the more opportunities that you have to make money. And from a gameplay perspective, having less avenues for most vampires to escape from will require massive re-balancing.

I understand from later reading that this is a very important point for you, being so heavily invested in the lore, and I can sympathise... I recently found out that the Extended Universe of Star Wars means **** all anymore and it upsets me. But in order to keep this competitive PvP game competitive and fun and not a massive performance hog, some things will have to just not make sense from a lore point of view. And the wall climb mechanic, for me, is one of them. (I do however address a difference in wall climbing for deceivers next)


by climbing on walls to get behind them and also on ceilings

I loved AvP... and this kind of reminds me of the Alien role in the asymmetric PvP... which I'm not against, it was my main... and hell, if they wanna work on wall/ceiling controlled climbing like the Aliens (and the surface transfer mechanic that Alien required for the class to be playable) I'd be all for it, It would make for a great RMB ability if you mixed the wall climb with the crouch/low walking... for example on a roof with a hole in it you start holding RMB and walk into the hole, but instead of falling you transfer to the ceiling (obviously the whole shadows can be seen on the ceiling thing would need fixed though :P ). But "the weakest of Kain's brood" would have to have possibly even bigger drawbacks from this to maintain competitive balance, especially if you are wanting them to have cc (web entanglement/attaching to the roof). How would you approach this balance issue? The whip would gain a buff from being good against this also.

I generally have no problems with your deceiver opinions though... I think they would have to choose between backstab damage and web cc personally (just trying to think of balance here)... and not that I think the devs will action any of this... they likely have their own master plan... this would take a damn long time to implement (I'd wait though guys... I'd wait :P, and hell DotA 1 heroes went through several versions... hell they still are :) ).



Stalker
I'd love to help with this one... but I'm out of my......... depth :lol:......

sounds ok other than the fact that the vampires would start to look like mostly support. I have no clue on this one though.



Reavers

I would absolutely change the clawed gloves to swords, give the pounce to the Deceiver, therefore get rid of the growling, give him a melee tongue and he's all set.

I don't see how the gloves to swords would affect gameplay (if they were short enough swords/the jump forward from attack was much shorter)... so no comment, since it's purely aesthetic. Same goes with the tongue attack really... but the pounce... I don't think the deceiver, lacking a good enough escape mechanism like dodge arrows or shadowstep, would be able to survive pouncing someone... so I really don't see this working. I honestly (lore aside for a moment) think the reaver is in a really good place right now personally.



Tyrant
warning, this is my favourite class, and I am typing this as I read so everything here is just about my raw first impressions of your ideas... but I love the Tyrant so much that I don't know how I will react to any nay-saying :P

First of all, the shockwave is more fitting for the Reaver, except without the earth protrusions.
I really don't see this... not, at the very least, with my perspective anyway. It acts as a nuke and mini cc (perfectly setting up a follow up charge)... and I just don't see how you could get the mini cc in without the earth spikes, nor what you would replace them with... I think I'd need to hear more from you on your ideas here.


With their strength they should be equipped to place obstacles more in the center of a street from the sides, or rip off certain walls from human shelters, perhaps ram through weak wooden walls. His hearing should pinpoint where or which direction he last heard human gunshot sounds on the minimap on an infinite detection range but a limited locating distance. Should be able to manipulate primitive machinery that somehow changes the map to vex human planning, like moving maze elements onto the map. He should be able to send and outward ring of telekinetic wave that interrupts any human action and stops them in their tracks for 1.5 seconds in a 6 or so meter radius. Occasionally at seemingly random times like 5 minutes after the level start because of innate insanity, the Tyrant should give out an unwelcomed enraged battle roar that gives away his position. Like a gamble, when will the Turelim blow the cover of the team.

Destructive environments goes back to my performance problem. If you increase the average performance required you will be locking many people out of playing, hence, locking yourself out of potential income. The same goes for dynamic environments (no matter how much I love both). Knowing and giving up player locations may help the action move along quicker... but passive bonuses/hindrances shouldn't really be a thing unless everyone gets one... and I'm not sure how much I like the giving up my location... finding the perfect charge into shockwave/shockwave into charge can require a lot of dancing in the shadows waiting... plus RNG.... eugh! http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT0Ki6BTAiJqa4UM9RSQsNxWbSsKVlCPjpkp1xwRoKzXmnKF3fReDFQMt0:mob565.photobucket.com/albums/ss96/TheTwilightStorm/Twitch%2520Faces/DansGame.jpg%253Ft%253D1332738890

Skipping the sentenels... your issues are purely aesthetic... and my only issue with them is the throwable bomb, at least till I learn to dodge D:

Oh, and...

Now the strangest thing is that this game takes too long to develop.

Citation Needed.
I say this because... before the whole early access thing... games would spend like 3 to 5 years in development (a few taking even longer)... but because the general public didn't play them (or even know about them) while it happened they had no idea of the timeframes that things took. I tell you this now, I have played some 40 odd early access games, Nosgoth has relatively few issues and is by far the most polished closed beta I have played... and that is including Valve's DotA 2 (that was in 'full release' before a vast majority of the bugs were removed... and they still have a ways to go, hell they're still changing hero concepts), and think of the cash they had to throw at the game. What I'm trying to say is, compared to what is Nosgoth taking 'too long' to develop?

RainaAudron
5th Dec 2014, 15:08
Sorry, but I think you're talking about 4 - rth timeline and Nosgoth is in 2 timeline (almost wrote 1) between BO and SR1, and according to that Kain would be killed by Raziel with Reaver (dk if its Blood or Soul).
If I missed something then ...

Nosgoth happens on second timeline forth, so feral humans can´t be included either way.

Vampmaster
5th Dec 2014, 15:54
Sorry, but I think you're talking about 4 - rth timeline and Nosgoth is in 2 timeline (almost wrote 1) between BO and SR1, and according to that Kain would be killed by Raziel with Reaver (dk if its Blood or Soul).
If I missed something then ...

That was future Kain who Raziel had followed into the past. Kain from the past always survived long enough to create his empire in every timeline other than the first.

D4RK_LQRD_NEM3SYS
5th Dec 2014, 18:51
So hi guys. Just to address a few questions here....

MEH I'm lazy to figure out how proper quoting works, I'll just copypaste.


FireWorks_
"tl;dr..."

Didn't write the text for you.

-

RainaAudron

"That is the trait of the fledgling Dumahim, not Melchahim."
Sorry people, my memoires decieved me, remembering seeing the third Melchahim in their home territory when near gravestones he was chewing on a human corpse, I mistakenly remembered using a tongue to syphon blood.

"The SR1 manual mentions they are equally dangerous on land and sea and since they still have legs, they appear to be amphibian, rather than bound by water only (unlike Rahab). "
You misunderstood me, I was talking about Rahab and how his confinement was probably the fate of all his progeny.

"Turelim have nothing to do with the Lighthouse really, they were dropped there in the last minute instead of the Dumahim, since their own territory was cut from SR1."
So because of how the game came out, in the final release it later actually was the Turelim who were responsible for the Lighthouse. Simply as the game shipped with them there, AND the fact that they like working on machines.

"Feral humans were eradicated by Kain in the Sarafan era and are not present 500 years later. Besides, the Vampire Citadel was destroyed by the EG after Defiance (just like the Lost City was pulled into Underworld by him). The probability of any of them surviving is highly unlikely."
Just because Kain killed all the feral humans that he came across, it doesen't mean he killed all of them, why would it mean that? And I wasn't talking about a time after Defiance. And there is no proof that the Elder God would have pulled the citadel under anyway in the timeline of Nosgothgame/SoulReaver. Now there could be a problem: If the original timeline did not necessarily contain an event where Raziel ressurects Janos, he could not have taken them to the shores of the mainland. But in this case, let's just say that somehow history reshuffled to accomodate the needs of fate! :D

-

13oundary

I love AvP too! ;)

"Please explain why you think the Razielim would be better as female?"
Just imagine them how awesome and grotesque would they have been!

Shockwave could be related to constrict. This is why it could be more fitting for Reavers. The problem with Choking Haze is that it comes from some kind of chemical grenade, and not from vampire powers. Although if it came from the vampire itself, it could also have something to do with constrict.

What is RNG?

Lord_Aevum
5th Dec 2014, 20:08
Just because Kain killed all the feral humans that he came across, it doesen't mean he killed all of them, why would it mean that?

It is not definitive, but none remain when Kain and Raziel return there in the Blood Omen era and there are no known means for other humans to get in or out of that island, hence nobody ever recording it on their maps. The implication from the game is that Kain's massacre of the tribe, even if not thorough, led to their extinction in the future.


And there is no proof that the Elder God would have pulled the citadel under anyway in the timeline of Nosgothgame/SoulReaver.

Yes there is: neither Kain nor Raziel, who lived through the entire empire era, ever heard of the Citadel before Defiance. Ergo, since history accepts minimal alterations, it was pulled down or otherwise inaccessible.

D4RK_LQRD_NEM3SYS
5th Dec 2014, 22:44
It is not definitive, but none remain when Kain and Raziel return there in the Blood Omen era and there are no known means for other humans to get in or out of that island, hence nobody ever recording it on their maps. The implication from the game is that Kain's massacre of the tribe, even if not thorough, led to their extinction in the future.


Yes there is: neither Kain nor Raziel, who lived through the entire empire era, ever heard of the Citadel before Defiance. Ergo, since history accepts minimal alterations, it was pulled down or otherwise inaccessible.

So just because noone put a little castle drawing on their maps, it does not mean that it was absolutely pulled under. Dude don't be a detective in your life, please! :D It's like saying because noone saw that you don't have a gun, you probably shot a guy because we have no photo of the missing person.

The citadel was not on maps because people who made maps usually thought that in the water there was a large serpentine animal or just a similar dangerous situation depicted by it. And danger keeps simple folk way from sticking their noses too close to ancient ruins.

The Lake of Tears is presumed to always be shrouded in fog, because there were ancient devices responsible for magically clearing the fog away. What humans cannot see, humans won't get interested in.

The citadel was elaborate, difficult to navigate for a casual visitor, and there were even highland mountainous areas which were inaccessible for the player to go to. A tribe of humans who have only been seen to be wandering around and waiting in ambush spots must have had a place where they can actually get warm nearby, a place where they eat, 'cause you know, eating tends to help living tissue, and a place where they kept their people who were not - or better yet NOT YET - involved in active guard duty, or whatever they were doing there.

The elder god probably only pulled the citadel down with him because Kain and Raziel made him pretty angry. THE WEEL OF FATE! THE HUB OF THE WEEL!!!!BLABLABLA YADAYADA
But since it is not that timeline yet, why would this occur?

So a group of humans who were loyal to the vampires were there, and due to their own free will, they served them. If they had some form of method to leave, like canoes or rafts, it doesen't mean they would necessarily leave there for no good reason.

Since humans need nourishment, and rocky snow covered highlands can't grow crops, and no background skybox or concept art had shown the island with hospitable flat grounds around the building, we could assume the feral humans could use boats to get to the land and farm secret plains where food is only grown for them. Cause let's be honest, shall we? Dropping a generation of humans into a castle made of stone, and then probably flying away and dying would mean the imminent doom of these dumb simpletons.

While on the main shore, they could easily meet the Watchers for example, who were quite the explorers of the War for Nosgoth era, and enlist them in the war effort. Without knowing that the descendants of these feral humans have a hidden agenda, a tradition of waiting the return of the ancients and being hostile to creatures like Kain, or the present clans.

And as a reminder: Raziel never heard of the Hylden until he impaled himself in the chapter house. Does this mean the Hylden didn't exist? Of course not!

RainaAudron
5th Dec 2014, 23:19
But since it is not that timeline yet, why would this occur?
Because that is what the EG does, he drags down significant locations (not to mention he probably destroyed the Spirit Forge in all timelines).


Since humans need nourishment, and rocky snow covered highlands can't grow crops, and no background skybox or concept art had shown the island with hospitable flat grounds around the building, we could assume the feral humans could use boats to get to the land and farm secret plains where food is only grown for them. Cause let's be honest, shall we? Dropping a generation of humans into a castle made of stone, and then probably flying away and dying would mean the imminent doom of these dumb simpletons.

I think that was the point - to isolate them, so the Ancients could have brought them up to their needs (slaves, worship). Why would they really care what happens to them, when the Ancients themselves star to die out? Also, I do not think they built any ports at the bottom of the Citadel, they can fly and teleport after all...

D4RK_LQRD_NEM3SYS
6th Dec 2014, 00:03
The ancients may be able to fly an teleport, but not the humans.
And why care for the humans?

1. Janos was shown in SR2 as an ancient vampire who does not hate humans, even though humans are stupid, and had a major hand in the extermination of ancients (remember the murals where Mortanius and Moebius led the uprising). Therefore probably ancients initially did not hate humans, that is of course until much much later when they started killing ancients. This resulted as making Janos the last ancient that we know of.

Here is video of Janos speaking about humans to Raziel is SR2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWty8BsL_g0

2. The blood curse plan of the Hylden brought sterility, and the pillars helped the binding to keep the Hylden down in the demon dimension. Since ancient vampires were no longer born, and the pillars chose guardians by birth, it was the natural interest of ancients to not hate the beings who were the future tools of their own binding spell.

Later of course the ancients' bloodlust or bloodthirst probably made them insane and either kill (too many) humans while draining their blood, or turning them into vampires themselves, thus creating the so called vampire menace or plague.

There is this mural depicting explanations to all 3 statements.
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120926001631/legacyofkain/images/e/e8/Defiance-Texture-VampireCitadel-Mural-TheHumanGuardiansRevolt.png

So it was probably logical to nurture and babysit humans until somehow the involved ancients were taken over by some bloodlust rage.
Topic broken down: Until one observed ancient vampire is consumed by bloodthirst, he could be a protecting caring benefactor of humans.

Lord_Aevum
6th Dec 2014, 00:37
So just because noone put a little castle drawing on their maps, it does not mean that it was absolutely pulled under. Dude don't be a detective in your life, please! :D

I'm sure I'd never dream of it... :p Just felt the canon material would be useful to you, but fan fiction of course will diverge.

D4RK_LQRD_NEM3SYS
6th Dec 2014, 01:07
@Lord_Aevum

Dude there is nothing to indicate that the Elder God would have collapsed the citadel in the first timeline. Let's consider him innocent until proven guilty. Wrecking the Lost City in the second timeline does not mean he wrecked the citadel also. Neither does wrecking the citadel in the fourth mean it. Fourth is not the same as the second.

The Lake of Tears is the biggest body of water in Nosgoth confined by relatively known land from all four sides. It is no wonder noone saw a towering spire. Have you ever gazed into the horizon of a sea? You wouldn't see the end of it even with magic ancient binoculars.