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CorvusTheSly
24th Nov 2014, 23:56
Speaking strictly as a gamer who enjoys FPS, I would have a much easier time playing humans if the option to go first person was available. I know I can't be the only one.

FireWorks_
25th Nov 2014, 01:43
Sure, but remember that youd be on a disadvantage when it comes to view of the surroundings...


...which makes me think could be a great way of nerfing the humans into the right place. Id love a playtest on that!

injiau
25th Nov 2014, 05:54
Well I tend to agree the way to nerf down the humans is too have it FPS view but in saying that if vampires still have the 3rd person view to get rid of the sentinel, cause if were FPS and the sentinel swoops down it will be next to impossible to kill them as it is now and I've seen some really fast sentinel players just destroy with a decent team.

cmstache
26th Nov 2014, 16:15
A First-person view is doubtful to see. In order to do this animations need to be changed or re-done a second time. It's expensive to do right and I personally don't want them to do it not up to par.

That being said, a view change won't likely be a huge deal in high level play due to proper use of audio cues. I'm sure it'll make a small difference, but ultimately it'd be negligible.

Nordikc
27th Dec 2014, 20:00
What is the reasoning behind 3rd person view models?

I have never been a fan of them. Nosgoth is the only game I have played for a considerable amount of time with them. A friend I invited says the game is unplayable for him because of 3rd person, but I guess he is particularly sensitive.

Is or will there be a way to enable first person view models? It really should be a preference.


Others like the idea of first person to.
http://steamcommunity.com/app/200110/discussions/0/558754259666094908/#p1

Ghewlish
27th Dec 2014, 20:11
I can see how some would like this to have a 1st person view. In my opinion however it doesn't have a place in Nosgoth YET.

The reason I say that is not only is the game still in beta, but it brings up the problem of those using 3rd person having a severe perception advantage (see around corners, rooftops, etc.)

Maybe in the future when the game is close to being complete and polished out, they could throw in mechanics to have 1st person work. As for right now though, there's more important things they need to work on.

Khalith
27th Dec 2014, 21:20
Playing in 1st person is definitely not something I want, if they forced it in to nosgoth without the option to stay in 3rd person I'd quit. The gameplay is far better served with the wider viewpoint of the third person view, especially as a vampire. I actually think all shooters would be far better if all of them gave you an option to use a third person camera angle, I'd definitely be inclined to play them more!

AntiqueGod
27th Dec 2014, 22:16
Playing in 1st person is definitely not something I want, if they forced it in to nosgoth without the option to stay in 3rd person I'd quit. The gameplay is far better served with the wider viewpoint of the third person view, especially as a vampire. I actually think all shooters would be far better if all of them gave you an option to use a third person camera angle, I'd definitely be inclined to play them more!
For Nosgoth 3rd person is great, but not for every game. Good example is Arma 2-3. I just hate 3rd person in this game, and play only on hardcore servers.

Nordikc
27th Dec 2014, 23:37
Playing in 1st person is definitely not something I want, if they forced it in to nosgoth without the option to stay in 3rd person I'd quit. The gameplay is far better served with the wider viewpoint of the third person view, especially as a vampire. I actually think all shooters would be far better if all of them gave you an option to use a third person camera angle, I'd definitely be inclined to play them more!
I was not saying forcing 1st person at all, I was asking for the option. So as you said, having 3rd person in more games as an option would be nice. The same way, 1st person in nosgoth would be really nice.

I especially want it for humans. Vampires it is nice to have the extremely large field of view but I personally dislike 3rd person in general. Its all preference. If someone wants to limit themselves to 1st person, why deny them? My friend likes nosgoth, but can't stand 3rd person at all.

MasterShuriko
28th Dec 2014, 07:16
1st person? No! NO! No,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no! The point of this is not to copy cat what is it, 90% of all arena based games already out there. 1St person ew..

Nordikc
28th Dec 2014, 16:37
I find it interesting that the older steam thread had people wanting 1st person view as an option, but here they don't at all.


1st person? No! NO! No,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no! The point of this is not to copy cat what is it, 90% of all arena based games already out there. 1St person ew..

So, you're against having an option just because you wouldn't use it? Using third person to differentiate yourself is silly because it is doesn't make a game. What makes this game special is the asymmetrical melee vs range combat.

Hjalmtyr
29th Dec 2014, 11:43
I cant imagine playing this game 1st person. This would shorten your view drastically, making you much more vulnerable. In addition some powerful skills are based on view angle. like Tyrant Charge and Scout with bow fully drawn. And Charging Tyrant has this telekinetic field near his face. with 1st person view player would see nothing but this field. Would you know where to charge then? :). And do you really want your face to hit the ground when you Dive Bomb with sentinel, get a small disorientation and see nothing but the floor while you get up after landing? There are much more details that are based on view which would be completely destroyed by 1st view option and make the game less balanced.
P.S. Imagine the camera's behavior when you dodge\roll :)

Nordikc
29th Dec 2014, 15:54
I am seeing a bunch of arguments against 1st person because mostly vampire abilities, and the scout. I am not seeing any arguments as to why it shouldn't be an option, especially for the humans. Its preference. In the OP I put a link to a steam forum page that showed numerous people would like to play with 1st person pov.

KrazeyXII
29th Dec 2014, 20:58
First person view as vampire would look like **** and would be incredibly clunky. Go play AvP or Natural Selection to see why. Being locked into FP as a human reduces your vision dramatically. Deceivers would destroy with infect and you couldn't scan the area while getting health stations or while deceived.

This game works better as a third person shooter due to how the game was originally designed. Adding a first person aspect will add a large number of man hours to development to tag on a piss poor fps option to the game which will reduce its value. There are hundreds of FPS games on the market that can satisfy your fetish, it's not needed here. They have done third person right, why tag on something useless?

Also, anyone in third person will have a massive vision advantage over someone in first person. This suggestion is a joke and it wasn't funny.

Nordikc
29th Dec 2014, 21:25
I do play natural selection, quite a lot. I have almost 2000 hours into it. In fact it is my favorite game to date. I play nosgoth for the similar gaming experience. I only know of about 5 games that play like this, so no there are not hundreds I would want to play.

I disagree that it would reduce its value, as long as it was an option. It would increase the games value, allowing more people to play how they want to play. My friend is unable to play the game because it is 3rd person. I don't understand why, but he can't seem aim whatsoever in 3rd person. Its not just him, I read the same kind of comment in the steam thread I linked. That would be a few more players that stick around, because this game I predict will have a player retention problem because of its learning curve.

Development hours is an important point. I would say 1st person pov would be low priority. Something that would be really cool to have added right before, or after release.

Just because you think it is useless, does not mean it is. I will refer to this steam link again: http://steamcommunity.com/app/200110/discussions/0/558754259666094908/#p1

TendrilSavant
30th Dec 2014, 02:02
One clear disadvantage to playing in 1st person view is camera shake. Part of the balance implemented for melee vs range is that humans suffer heavy camera shake from vampire melee and abilities, even with increased FOV a rolling vampire meleeing you would be hard to track with the camera shake.


That would be a few more players that stick around, because this game I predict will have a player retention problem because of its learning curve.
Actually, the learning curve in this game is pretty easy. Most of what is perceived as a steep learning curve is the overall need to use unintended mechanics or bugs for a slight advantage.


Just because you think it is useless, does not mean it is. I will refer to this steam link again: http://steamcommunity.com/app/200110/discussions/0/558754259666094908/#p1
The Steam community in general has a preference to FPS, so there is a bit of bias there. You might want to put a poll here to see how people feel about it, and invite people form that discussion (and ingame) to add to this topic.

Vampmaster
30th Dec 2014, 02:30
Wouldn't it skew things in favour of the humans? It would be really usefull for aiming ranged weapons and would remove obstructions from their view, but it would be too much of a hinderance for vampires to use. I mean the camera would spin around 360 degrees if you tried something like a sweeping kick in first person and most other melee attacks to a lesser extent. Every time you made an attack, the camera would end up pointing at some unwanted direction until the animation finished.

It would be either vampires opt out of it and leave the humans with an advantage that the vampires don't or the vampires try to use it and end up with the disadvantage as well.

--Ram--
31st Dec 2014, 05:42
I think the game works well enough in third person and probably is much more aestheitically pleasing this way. Having also put 1000 hours + into NS2 I must say that I got used to playing as a giant mouth just fine and do miss the sneak/ambushing opportunities that first person allows (No bendy round corner vision). Other than that 3rd person wasn't hard to adapt to. I had my reservations initially as well but its really not a big deal if you give it a chance

P.S. NS2 is far from clunky, however new players do struggle to be effective especially with landing accurate melee attacks and alien side movement (looking at you floor fades/straight line skulks). Nosgoth is vastly easier to pick up and play to a decent standard.

Nordikc
31st Dec 2014, 17:12
One clear disadvantage to playing in 1st person view is camera shake. Part of the balance implemented for melee vs range is that humans suffer heavy camera shake from vampire melee and abilities, even with increased FOV a rolling vampire meleeing you would be hard to track with the camera shake.


Actually, the learning curve in this game is pretty easy. Most of what is perceived as a steep learning curve is the overall need to use unintended mechanics or bugs for a slight advantage.


The Steam community in general has a preference to FPS, so there is a bit of bias there. You might want to put a poll here to see how people feel about it, and invite people form that discussion (and ingame) to add to this topic.
Camera shake would be pretty bad in 1st person, but not that bad. Ns2 has all sorts of vision obscuring elements. Most of which are alien abilities. These same abilities are toned down for aliens to not really be obscuring. I am sure camera shake is a scaleable that it could work with 1st person pov.

As a human I don't think it would be that hard tracking a rolling vampire. Ns2 skulks, lerks, and fades are far faster and aren't that hard to track as they move all around. Getting a kill on a lerk or fade is difficult, but that is by design.

I only have about 90 hours in nosgoth so far. Its not much yet, but its increasing rapidly. You have probably played more than I and have heard more about the learning curve. The range of skill in Nosgoth is quite large. This leads me to believe the learning curve is hard. That and complaints I have heard from people I have played with. Compared to ns2, nosgoth is easier to learn though.

That is my main point. The steam community does have a preference to FPS/first person POV. Why not give them the option, in a menu, to choose what they want. Make the default 3rd person pov even. It can only make the game more popular. I can see here that there is a large bias towards third person, so much so to be told I have a fetish for 1st person POV. People are getting really defensive.


Wouldn't it skew things in favour of the humans? It would be really usefull for aiming ranged weapons and would remove obstructions from their view, but it would be too much of a hinderance for vampires to use. I mean the camera would spin around 360 degrees if you tried something like a sweeping kick in first person and most other melee attacks to a lesser extent. Every time you made an attack, the camera would end up pointing at some unwanted direction until the animation finished.

It would be either vampires opt out of it and leave the humans with an advantage that the vampires don't or the vampires try to use it and end up with the disadvantage as well.
By the comments here, it doesn't sound like it would skew things in favor of humans. That is why I would like for players to have the choice of 1st or 3rd person. A choice, not forced. If it were implemented humans would probably split half and half on which POV they use, and vampires would probably mostly use 3rd person.

Sweeping kick does pose an interesting problem in regards to pov. I am sure it could be accommodated though. If you decided to opt into 1st person vampire, maybe for the duration of an attack like sweeping kick you would be put in third person. Or maybe your pov is locked forward while your model does a 360. That just eats up development time, which is why 1st person pov would need to be low priority. Maybe even added after release.

If 1st person had advantages, people would naturally flock to it. If it had disadvantages people would not use it unless they prefered it. Since its a choice the player made, no one could complain since they could make the same choice.



Last night I purchased the game Depth. I played for a couple hours. In depth you have a four 1st person divers with guns and up to two 3rd person sharks. Similar to vampires, the shark often needs the increased fov from 3rd person. Similar to vampires, sharks die really quick so you don't want to poke your head around a corner unless you're going to attack. If divers had 3rd person they would see the shark coming and kill it before it could do anything. Both sides in Depth are very strong and can 1 shot kill the other basically. The game was balanced this way though; this makes the game entirely dependant on positioning and timing when to engage.

Nosgoth, Ns2, and Depth are all very fun asymmetrical games. Doing well in all three games relies largely on positioning and timing of engagements. Out of all three, Nosgoth is the only one I beleive flexible enough to support both 1st and 3rd person pov making a player's preference possible.

ironhorse86
31st Dec 2014, 21:51
I think the game works well enough in third person and probably is much more aestheitically pleasing this way. Having also put 1000 hours + into NS2 I must say that I got used to playing as a giant mouth just fine and do miss the sneak/ambushing opportunities that first person allows (No bendy round corner vision). Other than that 3rd person wasn't hard to adapt to. I had my reservations initially as well but its really not a big deal if you give it a chance

P.S. NS2 is far from clunky, however new players do struggle to be effective especially with landing accurate melee attacks and alien side movement (looking at you floor fades/straight line skulks). Nosgoth is vastly easier to pick up and play to a decent standard.
Bam.
You nailed it.

If anything, Natural Selection 2 is a testament to how it is done RIGHT. (compare it to latest AvP etc)
But not everyone grew up with unforgiving fast paced arena shooters and skilled movement mechanics, so not everyone today is willing to put the time into mastering mechanics.

On topic though: +1 I would like it as an option for humans. the lack of a model obscuring half my screen would be worth the loss in seeing around corners, and if you implemented it along with non console inspired crosshairs (or allowed modification)... boy would it be worth it.

Enlightened_Fool
8th Jan 2015, 17:38
I like both fps and tps styles, and generally prefer fps to tps, but I personally feel nosgoth needs to be in tps - mostly for situational awareness.
I like to see when a vamp is behind/next to me charging up a melee attack/etc while not relying on radar. I like peeking around corners w/o actually going around them. But I wouldn't mind a fps view for scout, at least while I'm holding a charged shot. Maybe as a sentinel for abducting/kidnapping, but those two reasons would be about all I'd use a fps mode for.

Having the ability to pick one of the views would be great, and even better if we could pick one option for each individual class and not just one way or the other for both races.



Sweeping kick does pose an interesting problem in regards to pov. I am sure it could be accommodated though. If you decided to opt into 1st person vampire, maybe for the duration of an attack like sweeping kick you would be put in third person. Or maybe your pov is locked forward while your model does a 360. That just eats up development time, which is why 1st person pov would need to be low priority. Maybe even added after release.

"Or maybe your pov is locked forward while your model does a 360."
I would think that's how it would be done, as spinning your view around in a circle would not be generally fun to use all the time for most players.
Fps mode, for me, also would preferably not move around too much(or not at all) while walking/running/dodging, or have an option to turn it off. While shooting your reticule would move according to recoil, or behave normally the way it does currently.

At the end of the day though I like nosgoth how it is now, and wouldn't really care if fps mode was going to be included, as it's a lower priority and there are plenty of other more important things to work on.

Protekt1
16th Jan 2015, 17:54
Humans should be first person, vampires should be third person. I feel like the only reason hunters are third person is to make sure you can see the skins you purchased at all times.

injiau
28th Feb 2015, 10:38
Hey guys I was just wondering for a suggestion like right now we have a 3rd person game I love it but with the maps being 3rd person it's not quite exciting and gets me going like "I can see 3rd person theres vampires coming from over there" when I could be feeling "Oh man this first person feel is insane I cannot see where they are if I got around the corner am I going to die?"

I personally would find it more interesting and fun if the human side was first person shooter feel and leave the vampires as 3rd person kinda like NS2 but nosgoth's style.

Hopefully this gains some interests cause I think it's the better choice if not the game is amazing regardless and I will play it just prefer FPS over 3rd person for Human side..

Jovan "INJI" O
team *(R)ain
Nosgoth Australia Community (http://steamcommunity.com/groups/nosgothAU)