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View Full Version : Humans too strong,vampires too weak.



yYoloSwagginss
24th Nov 2014, 23:35
Human Advantages : Vampire Advantages:
-Higher DPS than vampires -Wide swing arcs
-Range -Gap closing abilities
-Heal at will with HP stations -Can traverse buildings/walls
-Can shoot while falling -High damaging CCQ abilities
-Lots of CC -Escape abilities
-High damage/rapid AoE -HP Regen
-Can stack CC
-Can strafe/awkwardly move while shooting
-Non Linear movement
-As a team can lock down a corner of the map

Human Weakness: Vampire Weakness:
-Must stay close together or very vulnerable -Linear easy to predict movement (esp. during melee)
-Low melee damage -Hunter can easily out DPS you while you melee
-Prophet can easily out DPS you while you melee
-Alch. can easily out DPS you while you melee
-Corner camping leaves only head on approach
-Bola/Knives are instantaneous (stun during melee)
-AoE too rapid/damaging (400 dmg in 1 second)
-Easily forced to retreat while being chunked down
-War bow,Bola,Knives,Poison bola,Whip,Hex shot
-Due to linear movement easy to be CC'd

Proposed changes:
Lower the damage of AoE effects that humans have (poison cloud exception)
Lower the damage of crossbows and reduce RoF on heavy pistols
Make alchemist have increased self damage so she cant spam 250 dmg rockets at face range to melt you
When CC is stacked make it have a reduced effect,like when a sentinel drops a human vampires do reduced damage.So why is it fair to be bola'd 2 x in a row,especially when bola is so easy to hit.Skills like pounce are useless considering cc easily stops it and it has a 2second cast time which you can easily lose 90% of you hp during.
Increase mobility/ freedom of movement to vampires during attack animations.Increase Tyrant health by 185 as hunters/Prophets can bring a tyrant down RIDICULOUSLY fast.Due to his massive hitbox I actually survive longer as a reaver than a tyrant.

When I first purchased the games I was like "OMG VAMPIRES OP" but by the time I hit level 15 I found most games laughable.Humans usually facestomp them.Vampires constantly get stuck on the environment and humans can abuse corners/awkward environment while easily hitting using hit scan.Abilities like abduct,pounce and charge are easily avoided due to sound cue and last minute roll.There is also the issue of prophet teams infinitely healing each other.I also think there should be class limits,4 prophets/4 hunters are a nightmare to face. Like I literally just hold m1 while vamps melee me as hunter and 9/10 time usually out dps them.

That said I do enjoy the game sometimes but it's just sad to see vampires lose during 1 v 1 when they are supposedly designed to be stronger when singling an enemy out.Also hitting 20k damage as hunter every game regardless of circumstances is a little much... ex. Siege bow 95 x 10 hits (easily attainable) = 950 damage +whip = 200 damage (and stagger) + grenade = 500 damage(huge burst AND AoE) = 1,650 damage and then you still have a potential 9 other bolts to hit with dealing another 855 damage totaling 2,505..that is enough to kill 2.5 vampires.

Prophet can land about 8 shots with heavy pistol = 165x8-1,320 + 200 damage life steal +100 damage hex shot = 1,620.

Alchemist with 6 shots of fulbore is 250 x 6 =1,500 + light bomb 350 damage =1,850.

Scout with compound is 180 x 6 + throwing knives is 90 x 3 = 1,350.

Hunter with stock (repeater,bola and explosive shot)

75 x 20 + 115x 3 = 1,845 and one of his abilities don't do damage yet stock he STILL outputs other humans with all damaging abilities. He can also easily spam these abilities.

I did not include AoE abilities ( like alch and scouts ) too many variables.Maybe I don't see things properly but right now I'm sitting around level 40 and this is my impression!So if I'm wrong let me know!

Sluagh
26th Nov 2014, 10:00
Could you take away the human equivalent of "Infinite Wisdom" for humies (forgotten the name)? I do like it, but it might cool things down a bit, stop people popping abilities every blink of an eye.

Sanguise23
26th Nov 2014, 13:45
Could you take away the human equivalent of "Infinite Wisdom" for humies (forgotten the name)? I do like it, but it might cool things down a bit, stop people popping abilities every blink of an eye.

LOL im not sure i even use this perk, Tinkerer or deadshot for me

Khalith
26th Nov 2014, 15:09
LOL im not sure i even use this perk, Tinkerer or deadshot for me

Same here. I really don't think that human abilities are an issue (except for hex shot which only needs a fix of vampires being able to CD out of it), the issue with humans is, and really only ever has been, their white damage.

cmstache
26th Nov 2014, 16:30
-Range -Gap closing abilities


This is one of the main reasons vampires currently won't live up to human standards in the DPS race, and I think a fundamental issue with the game currently. Vampires have gap-closing abilities, but when you use them it leaves you at an ability handicap to the humans.


- Good human teams have higher sustained DPS
- Good Human teams don't run (so they don't have to waste an ability on either initiating or retreating)
- With the exception of one ability (Mark Target, and that's loosely outside the box due to damage increase) all human abilities either CC (Sunlight vial goes here), Damage, or do a combination. This give them more versatility. Vampires on the other hand have abilities like Enrage or Haste which require you to be in an enemy's face to be useful which cuts down their usefulness, Echolocation which is highly situational at best (I can make a case that it's pointless 95% of the time), and disguise which doesn't even get used the way it's intentionally supposed to be. Granted they do have skills like Choking Haze and Air Strike which have great harass and control potential, but those two will never be as good as poison cloud or sticky grenade which have way higher damage potential and can be used to force a vampire into them. Going along with this, due to many limited uses/lacking versatility of skills in a vampire line-up it's fairly predictable what skill vampires have and how they will be used, compared to what a human line-up has.


I honestly think a base movement speed for vampires would be a good fix. If done right it'd fix the roll-attack bug and lower the accuracy of humans across the board (except maybe alchs, who tend to shoot when they are closer range). It'd also allow vampires the ability to at least stand a fighting chance when hard CC'd.

EDIT: BTW, it's Quick Wits and Undying Wisdom.

AlexanderLS
26th Nov 2014, 16:50
This a team game.
Vampires who work together win.
Humans that work together win.

The issue is that many people while playing vampire forget this.
They rush in one at a time and get CC'd to death.
If anything the vampires have the advantage, If each vampire focused one human and they all went in at the same time...

Teamwork+skill=win for either side.

Petire
26th Nov 2014, 18:17
But if you have humans and vampires that both work together playing against each other then most of the time as long as you are looking at high level or a competitive scene the humans win the round. Simply because of higher DPS and not having to use abilities just to get into the fight.

cmstache
26th Nov 2014, 18:21
But if you have humans and vampires that both work together playing against each other then most of the time as long as you are looking at high level or a competitive scene the humans win the round. Simply because of higher DPS and not having to use abilities just to get into the fight.
That's what I said. :)

AlexanderLS
27th Nov 2014, 00:20
But if you have humans and vampires that both work together playing against each other then most of the time as long as you are looking at high level or a competitive scene the humans win the round. Simply because of higher DPS and not having to use abilities just to get into the fight.

You are not factoring in skill.
Humans are basically spray.
Vampires like all melee in games I play take skill to dodge attacks and be effective.

I personally feel the balance is good now.
If the devs agree with you and "improve" it, I shall adjust.

Razaiim
27th Nov 2014, 00:30
This is one of the main reasons vampires currently won't live up to human standards in the DPS race, and I think a fundamental issue with the game currently. Vampires have gap-closing abilities, but when you use them it leaves you at an ability handicap to the humans.


- Good human teams have higher sustained DPS
- Good Human teams don't run (so they don't have to waste an ability on either initiating or retreating)
- With the exception of one ability (Mark Target, and that's loosely outside the box due to damage increase) all human abilities either CC (Sunlight vial goes here), Damage, or do a combination. This give them more versatility. Vampires on the other hand have abilities like Enrage or Haste which require you to be in an enemy's face to be useful which cuts down their usefulness, Echolocation which is highly situational at best (I can make a case that it's pointless 95% of the time), and disguise which doesn't even get used the way it's intentionally supposed to be. Granted they do have skills like Choking Haze and Air Strike which have great harass and control potential, but those two will never be as good as poison cloud or sticky grenade which have way higher damage potential and can be used to force a vampire into them. Going along with this, due to many limited uses/lacking versatility of skills in a vampire line-up it's fairly predictable what skill vampires have and how they will be used, compared to what a human line-up has.


I honestly think a base movement speed for vampires would be a good fix. If done right it'd fix the roll-attack bug and lower the accuracy of humans across the board (except maybe alchs, who tend to shoot when they are closer range). It'd also allow vampires the ability to at least stand a fighting chance when hard CC'd.

EDIT: BTW, it's Quick Wits and Undying Wisdom.

You forgot Camo, Eldritch Guard, Sacrifice and Healing mist and I see these way more than mark.

holydiverLX3
27th Nov 2014, 01:00
OP brings up a lot of good points, most of which are common knowledge amongst competitive players already. For example, it's considered to be an advantage to start a scrim on human side. I've been trying to think of ways that balance could be achieved without ruining the dynamic of hunter/prey between vamps & humans.

I like the proposed idea of increasing the base move speed of vamps or adding some type of sprint feature (not sure if attack+dodge was intended to be used the way it is or if it's being abused) because it would reduce the advantage humans have when being attacked head on (and thus reducing corner camping) while increasing the need to track vamps better on human side (increasing skill cap). When watching streamers play hunter it's extremely boring especially when they're playing pubs vs less skilled opponents. They can just hold Mouse 1 at medium range and secure a kill most of the time since the mobility of vamps is limited especially with all the cc at the human team's disposal and the punishment for missing abilities as a vamp is exponentially higher. To counter this, human melee damage could be increased (maybe even give bonus damage when using melee attacks from behind to highlight the importance of good positioning and teamwork).

Another thing is the white damage of humans. I feel like if nothing else were to change, this should be reduced for obvious reasons. Vamps are very cooldown dependent, humans much less so even in 1v1 situations (though positioning plays an important part here, even at close range vamps seem to be at a noticeable disadvantage if not at full hp).

The immortal human team needs to be addressed (ie. infinite healing & camping 1 place on the map for an entire match), and I feel like there's a simple solution for it. Health stations give an immense advantage to the human side if they wipe the vamp team during an engagement. Killing 1-2 humans during an engagement is extremely crippling if your team is traded out in the process. If health stations were made to be 1 time use (ie. 1 person uses it and the cooldown begins for that station for the entire team) this would encourage the human team to rotate around the map instead of camping bridges the entire game where they have the most line of sight. It would also give the vamps an opportunity to capitalize on their investment of 1-2 kills from their prior lives since only one member of the team would be able to regain all their health before the next engagement. It would also increase the viability of alchemists/prophets in competitive play since heals would be a limited resource as they are on vamp side.

One last thing I wanted to mention is sentinel mechanics. I feel like it could be a more viable competitive class if a few things were addressed. As it stands now, flying is rather clunky (speed boosts are somewhat of an arcane/hidden mechanic) and the visibility is limited by where you are aiming. I've heard this mentioned by a few other players and I feel like it could be easily fixed by isolating the camera (mouse movement) and movement (W - up, A - left, S - down, D - right) and adding a button for boost (R) to be used in conjunction with movement keys (ie. boost up = W + R). This would make it much easier to randomize movement while also improvement scouting ability and vision so dodging/boosts is less of a 'get across the map fast' & 'oh ****' button and more of a skill that can be improved over time.

I'm looking forward to hearing some discussion on these suggestions, I'm sure we all want to make this the best game it can be by the time it's released.

cmstache
27th Nov 2014, 01:36
You forgot Camo, Eldritch Guard, Sacrifice and Healing mist and I see these way more than mark.

I forgot camo, correct. Sacrifice and healing mist (and guard by extension) don't count as they cause sustain. Sustain = more DPS. But dang, nailed me on camo. :( Shows how often I see that skill.....