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View Full Version : Patch Notes - July 10th Update



Saikocat
10th Jul 2014, 15:26
General
- Twitch.tv integration is now live! This is a work in progress feature, and will be improved and optimised further in future updates.

Deceiver
- Melee damage increased to 205 (was 200)
Backstab
- Base damage reduced to 275 (was 300), backstab damage increased to 550 (was 510)
- Reworked attack animation to improve hit detection
Disguise
- Fade time reduced to 1.0 sec, was 1.25 sec
- While disguised, humans will no longer see hit markers when shooting you
- While disguised, you will no longer play take hit animations when taking damage
Illusions
- Illusion max health increased to 25% of Deceiver’s health (was 20%)
Phase
- Renamed to “Shroud”


Reaver
- Melee damage reduced to 180 (was 185)
- Base health reduced to 1000 (was 1050)
Shadow Bomb
- Throw velocity reduced by 25% to limit maximum bomb range
Choking Haze
- Throw velocity reduced by 25% to limit maximum bomb range


Prophet
Banish Shot
- Replaced with “Hex Shot”
- Fires a projectile instead of an instant hit beam, so cannot snipe with it anymore
- Interrupts attacks and abilities such as Pounce, Kidnap, etc. but does not cancel flight or other movement. Disables attacks and abilities for its duration.
- Victims are slowed by 50%, but can dodge roll and climb walls.
- Breaks if sufficient damage is taken by target (similar to Bola)
- Cooldown is now 15 seconds (was 20)

Vampires
- Execution can no longer be cancelled after you have fed on your victim

Human Weapon Recoil
- Ironsights recoil reduction increased to 30% (was 25%)
- Recoil on Prophet Pistols, Hunter Crossbows, and Scout Bows reduced slightly

Dron1508
10th Jul 2014, 15:40
Vampires

- Execution can no longer be cancelled after you have fed on your victim

After or untill?

MasterZtark
10th Jul 2014, 15:41
Thanks Cat! Looking forward to trying everything out.

FireWorks_
10th Jul 2014, 15:45
After or untill?

Its most likely "after your health has replenished"

Saranjivac
10th Jul 2014, 15:49
After or untill?
I'm guessing they just fixed the bug, that you could cancel animation after getting the HP back (and than someone else could feed- was very rare but iv seen it happen).

Because otherwise, not being able to cancel your feeding animation would be just incredibly stupid and screw up teamplay that they want more of in this game.

But on a general note, I know psyonic looks at the stats for balancing terms, so in global the balance is still probably close to 50% (possibly 51% in favor of vampires). But the fact is that on lower levels it feels like vampires are stronger (because humans don't know how to teamplay still), tho I feel that if this game wants to make it as an e-Sport this patch was the wrong way to go, humans needed some nerfs in this patch, not reduced recoils.

While reducing reaver damage and dmg increase/improving the deciever is a good thing overall, I feel like this will further tip the scales to the human side (since 2-3 reavers vs a good human team was almost mandatory).

ciawal
10th Jul 2014, 15:50
General- Some matchmaking/party improvements
Can you elaborate at all on what’s been changed/improved?

Connatic
10th Jul 2014, 15:56
Can you elaborate at all on what’s been changed/improved?
Yeah, are these the big changes we've been waiting for, or just some minor improvements while we wait for the new system?

Dena92052
10th Jul 2014, 15:57
Any ETA when the servers will be up again?

Cant wait to see the MM inprovements

Squigiligimous
10th Jul 2014, 16:03
General

Banish Shot
- Replaced with “Hex Shot”
- Fires a projectile instead of an instant hit beam, so cannot snipe with it anymore
- Interrupts attacks and abilities such as Pounce, Kidnap, etc. but does not cancel flight or other movement
- Victims are slowed by 50%, but can dodge roll and climb walls
- Cooldown is now 15 seconds (was 20)



I feel like the changes to banish to Hex may be problematic. It's going to be a projectile sure but unless it's slow(the projectile I mean) any vampire caught by that is a sitting duck. And this change log seems to suggest it won't have -any- damage reduction.

Psyonix_Corey
10th Jul 2014, 16:04
I don't know how that line about matchmaking and parties got into the patch notes, apologies guys. This is not the overhaul (but it's not too far off).

Some changes went in that will hopefully reduce 5v3 issues, though.

TheXeiom
10th Jul 2014, 16:05
General

Prophet

Banish Shot
- Replaced with “Hex Shot”
- Fires a projectile instead of an instant hit beam, so cannot snipe with it anymore
- Interrupts attacks and abilities such as Pounce, Kidnap, etc. but does not cancel flight or other movement
- Victims are slowed by 50%, but can dodge roll and climb walls
- Cooldown is now 15 seconds (was 20)



Does this mean that "hex shot" is now an interrupt and slow instead of a 3 second silence and disarm that gives vamps armour or does it still have the disarm/silence effects?

Psyonix_Corey
10th Jul 2014, 16:07
I feel like the changes to banish to Hex may be problematic. It's going to be a projectile sure but unless it's slow(the projectile I mean) any vampire caught by that is a sitting duck. And this change log seems to suggest it won't have -any- damage reduction.

It has a damage threshold like Bola, so if you get lit up it'll fade. Will add to notes,

Squigiligimous
10th Jul 2014, 16:12
It has a damage threshold like Bola, so if you get lit up it'll fade. Will add to notes,

Phew okay that's much more reasonable. So mechanically it'll function like bola with less drop most likely but it won't drag vampires out of the sky. Sounds promising but not as likely to be broken. Hopefully I can convince a prophet friend to fiddle with it while I continue leveling scout.

TheXeiom
10th Jul 2014, 16:13
Also, is vampire wall climbing speed reduced by Hex shot or is it just run movement speed reduction?

Psyonix_Corey
10th Jul 2014, 16:14
Also, is vampire wall climbing speed reduced by Hex shot or is it just run movement speed reduction?

Move speed only right now. We might consider that if needed, but currently like the Hex tradeoff (can dodge/climb away, vs. Bola where you can't but can break out with abilities)

MasterZtark
10th Jul 2014, 16:17
Seeing as it's faster to roll, melee, repeat, is 50% movement speed reduction even good? I assume movement speed has nothing to do with rolling, melee's, or the combination of the two to move faster than running.

Connatic
10th Jul 2014, 16:22
I don't know how that line about matchmaking and parties got into the patch notes, apologies guys. This is not the overhaul (but it's not too far off).

Some changes went in that will hopefully reduce 5v3 issues, though.

That's still great news for me. I assumed it wasn't the overhaul but we just had to make sure ;D

TheXeiom
10th Jul 2014, 16:23
This patch in general seems really good, can't wait to try it out.

Keep up the good work Psyonix guys and gals.

Psyonix_Corey
10th Jul 2014, 16:25
Seeing as it's faster to roll, melee, repeat, is 50% movement speed reduction even good? I assume movement speed has nothing to do with rolling, melee's, or the combination of the two to move faster than running.

You can't melee while Hexed, and it slows your dodge movement rate, if not the animation itself.

MasterZtark
10th Jul 2014, 16:32
You can't melee while Hexed, and it slows your dodge movement rate, if not the animation itself.

Ohhh, cool! So it is very similar to a bola; When hit by it, it interrupts your melee/abilities and doesn't allow you to use them again until the duration is over (or you reach the damage threshold), your movement (and roll) speed is reduced by 50%, but you can still roll/climb walls. Sounds awesome, can't wait to see how it works out!

Does it work on a Charging Tyrant?

Psyonix_Corey
10th Jul 2014, 16:39
Ohhh, cool! So it is very similar to a bola; When hit by it, it interrupts your melee/abilities and doesn't allow you to use them again until the duration is over (or you reach the damage threshold), your movement (and roll) speed is reduced by 50%, but you can still roll/climb walls. Sounds awesome, can't wait to see how it works out!

Does it work on a Charging Tyrant?

No, Charging Tyrants are immune to disables once they're charging (Bola, Hex, etc.). Considering adding VFX to indicate this (he does have latent TK powers..)

Vampmaster
10th Jul 2014, 16:47
He does have latent TK powers.

And maybe some non-latent ones in future? :D

Shikei001
10th Jul 2014, 16:50
Sounds like a nice remake of that skill, can't wait to try Hex out *_*
Keep up the good work :D

Although I'm a bit sad about the fact that Twitch got faster to Nosgoth than the new match making/lobby xD
I understand that it helps with promoting the game... but if all streamers are just in a lobby trying to make a party... it could be negativ promoting...

Anyway can't wait to play again :D

V_Zephonim
10th Jul 2014, 17:05
Can you elaborate at all on what’s been changed/improved?

Things that we noticed:
- On our test environment, we saw notable improvements to Party Matchmaking. It seems that, now that we are live, this has not exactly carried over. We'll keep a watchful eye. Sorry for any false hopes.
- One things that DID carry over, though, is, if a player quits a lobby during the 10s Match Begin countdown, the match will start regardless, and the teams will be rebalanced before going in-game.

As Corey said, this is not the big overhaul just yet, but these two things should alleviate many issues encountered frequently on Nosgoth.

ALSO: Be warned that the Twitch feature is not presented here in a completely final state. It is known to impact performance in some cases and will be revisited in the near future to make it better.

Tube_Reaver
10th Jul 2014, 17:12
No, Charging Tyrants are immune to disables once they're charging (Bola, Hex, etc.). Considering adding VFX to indicate this (he does have latent TK powers..)

I think adding VFX to indicate this would really help new players understand that these abilities won't work on a tyrant when he is charging, and connecting it to his TK powers would be a huge plus as it is something many LoK fans are requesting...
http://media.tumblr.com/9d09f4edf40622e3a15969e4f2eeceb8/tumblr_inline_mnvs1bfcto1qz4rgp.jpg

FireWorks_
10th Jul 2014, 17:23
Ok MM is broken. The games dont start at all:(

Snihki
10th Jul 2014, 17:26
- While disguised, humans will no longer see hit markers when shooting you


Why changing this?

Shikei001
10th Jul 2014, 17:33
I found a bug xD
Just wanted to start a match and the counter went 10...9...8...7...6...5...4...3...2...1...0 "start sound" 8 Players in Lobby^^
And nothing happens xD
Someone leaves and the lobby counts from 60 xD

Edit: Siege works !

NiamaraWeee
10th Jul 2014, 17:55
There seems to be a bug with the item symbols... when you look into your inventory or the loadout for your characters, most of the pictures start disappearing, are then completely gone or seem to be loading... =/

FireWorks_
10th Jul 2014, 17:57
I found a bug xD
Just wanted to start a match and the counter went 10...9...8...7...6...5...4...3...2...1...0 "start sound" 8 Players in Lobby^^
And nothing happens xD
Someone leaves and the lobby counts from 60 xD

Edit: Siege works !

To be a bit more specific:
We joined a lobby, got it filled, it would have started but one left. Lobby then kept getting into intermission etc even with 8 players there.

We joined siege then.
The lobby never saw a player leaving and started with 8 players as planned.

Dont think it was siege specific.

Lobby linked to TDM EU 301637 just didnt start with 8 players either.

I was the second player joining, cant tell more about its history.

SiD_Green
10th Jul 2014, 18:10
- One things that DID carry over, though, is, if a player quits a lobby during the 10s Match Begin countdown, the match will start regardless, and the teams will be rebalanced before going in-game.

Why on Earth? Who wants a 3v4 match to start instead of waiting for an 8th player?

BR0sephStalin
10th Jul 2014, 18:14
I'm not entirely sure the recoil buffs were necessary. Humans already seemed too strong IMO. Stacking that on top of reaver nerfs seems a bit harsh.

Razaiim
10th Jul 2014, 18:17
Yeas. I know that many tyrants use TK instinctively but communicating that it is there would be sweeeet

vampirelucky
10th Jul 2014, 18:19
Why on Earth? Who wants a 3v4 match to start instead of waiting for an 8th player?
It's still better than the previous state - match starts and no re-balancing of the teams happens.

SiD_Green
10th Jul 2014, 18:20
It's still better than the previous state - match starts and no re-balancing of the teams happens.

True, I didn't realize this was happening much. I've only seen it when someone leaves at the last moment, not during the countdown.

V_Zephonim
10th Jul 2014, 18:34
Why on Earth? Who wants a 3v4 match to start instead of waiting for an 8th player?

To further expand on the answers you have already received, there also used to be a problem with people leaving a lobby repeatedly at the last minute while bullying players to quit the lobby via the chat. As it was, the design gave way too much power to trolls keeping lobbies in an unstartable state to further whatever goals they have.


Ok MM is broken. The games dont start at all:(

Is this still the case? I know our servers rollout operation was pretty painful this time around, and we had to wait quite a long time to start testing the release on the live environment. If the problems are persistent, though, we will definitely escalate.

FireWorks_
10th Jul 2014, 18:54
To further expand on the answers you have already received, there also used to be a problem with people leaving a lobby repeatedly at the last minute while bullying players to quit the lobby via the chat. As it was, the design gave way too much power to trolls keeping lobbies in an unstartable state to further whatever goals they have.

And its you too decide who the troll is in these cases?

Some have the view that a new player in a deathmatch with 7 other 30+ players is not exactly a guarantor for a nice match following.

Ive seen enough kindly asked players leaving, but Ive also seen some actively trolling on the others in the lobby.


This is a very bad bandaid for the matchmaking. If it has to be a bandaid solution, hardlock the newbies out of matches with 30+ players. For their and our good.


Is this still the case? I know our servers rollout operation was pretty painful this time around, and we had to wait quite a long time to start testing the release on the live environment. If the problems are persistent, though, we will definitely escalate.

A match just ran fine with a normally filling lobby. Cant say for lobbies with leavers. Will test now and report further

Shikei001
10th Jul 2014, 19:01
Is this still the case? I know our servers rollout operation was pretty painful this time around, and we had to wait quite a long time to start testing the release on the live environment. If the problems are persistent, though, we will definitely escalate.

I just played 2 TD games so it seem to be okay now ;)

Edit: btw. the new Prophet skill is really awesome :D i love it :D

Oss-Kao
10th Jul 2014, 19:14
"Throw velocity reduced by 25% to limit maximum bomb range"

It really is disapointing, it now really feels unnatural, like an heavy weight bowling ball...
/sad

Psyonix_Eric
10th Jul 2014, 19:27
And its you too decide who the troll is in these cases?

It's our game, and our responsibility to alleviate cases where people can troll other players and ruin the game's experience for people. So the answer is yes, it is for us to decide.

V_Zephonim
10th Jul 2014, 19:40
And its you too decide who the troll is in these cases?

Some have the view that a new player in a deathmatch with 7 other 30+ players is not exactly a guarantor for a nice match following.

Ive seen enough kindly asked players leaving, but Ive also seen some actively trolling on the others in the lobby.



This is not the end of the efforts to improve matchmaking and several other solutions will come in to complement this. Oh and... I hear your side of it, too. I happen to think that this new design will allow more matches to start quicker, and this will be well worth the tradeoff but... we'll see in the long run!

Thanks for your feedback!

Saturnity
10th Jul 2014, 19:42
I feel that if this game wants to make it as an e-Sport this patch was the wrong way to go, humans needed some nerfs in this patch, not reduced recoils.

While reducing reaver damage and dmg increase/improving the deciever is a good thing overall, I feel like this will further tip the scales to the human side (since 2-3 reavers vs a good human team was almost mandatory).

If anything, non-reavers needed changes to give them more options against good humans. Nerfing humans too much from where they are would just make them feel clunky.

Shikei001
10th Jul 2014, 19:58
It's our game, and our responsibility to alleviate cases where people can troll other players and ruin the game's experience for people. So the answer is yes, it is for us to decide.

+1 to that :D

Vampmaster
10th Jul 2014, 20:05
If anything, non-reavers needed changes to give them more options against good humans. Nerfing humans too much from where they are would just make them feel clunky.

I won't get the chance to try the patch until weekend, but that's what I've been saying about the non-reavers.

piCR7master
10th Jul 2014, 20:05
Has the game optimalisation been fixed? I had to quit playing nosgoth because the game was unplayable due to fps drops.

V_Zephonim
10th Jul 2014, 20:16
Has the game optimalisation been fixed? I had to quit playing nosgoth because the game was unplayable due to fps drops.

There are ongoing efforts in that regard, though, some of the optimisation is content-specific, meaning that it has to be done map per map. We're not losing track of that goal, but it may take some time still.

BloodyZ
10th Jul 2014, 20:25
so stupid i can not get used to it they ruined the reaver

piCR7master
10th Jul 2014, 20:27
Actually fps drops still occur, too bad ;/
waiting for the next patch

Shikei001
10th Jul 2014, 20:45
Sooo... my first conclusion after some rounds


Deceiver
- Melee damage increased to 205 (was 200)
Backstab
- Base damage reduced to 275 (was 300), backstab damage increased to 550 (was 510)
- Reworked attack animation to improve hit detection
Disguise
- Fade time reduced to 1.0 sec, was 1.25 sec
- While disguised, humans will no longer see hit markers when shooting you
- While disguised, you will no longer play take hit animations when taking damage
Illusions
- Illusion max health increased to 25% of Deceiver’s health (was 20%)
Phase
- Renamed to “Shroud”

Backstab is now alot better to use.. tho it's not too easy to get a 550dmg backstab.. so i think it's fairly good
The additional 5 dmg don't make a huge difference for me.. so i don't mind this change xD
But Phase is still named Phase for me...


Reaver
- Melee damage reduced to 180 (was 185)
- Base health reduced to 1000 (was 1050)
Shadow Bomb
- Throw velocity reduced by 25% to limit maximum bomb range
Choking Haze
- Throw velocity reduced by 25% to limit maximum bomb range

The 5dmg decreased melee dmg is same with Deceiver I don't feel any difference xD
But the health is a difference... 50hp is not little... I don't know if i like that :(
The reduced throw velocity of the bomb's, are awfull :( I can literally Leap further that throw...
Normally I throw Poisen and than leap at the target to stun them at least a bit in it.. befor they can jump out.. now I have to get really close.. I really consider to change from Leap to Kick because of this change :(


Prophet
Banish Shot
- Replaced with “Hex Shot”
- Fires a projectile instead of an instant hit beam, so cannot snipe with it anymore
- Interrupts attacks and abilities such as Pounce, Kidnap, etc. but does not cancel flight or other movement. Disables attacks and abilities for its duration.
- Victims are slowed by 50%, but can dodge roll and climb walls.
- Breaks if sufficient damage is taken by target (similar to Bola)
- Cooldown is now 15 seconds (was 20)

Same like Phase... Banish Shot is still named Banish Shot... but I like this skill sooooo much now *_* the projectile can be dodged especially if u aim at someone further away... but if u hit it helps ur team very much but is not too strong because of the dmg boundary...
Very very good work on this one Psyonix :worship:

That's everything for now :D hope it helps ;)

FireWorks_
10th Jul 2014, 21:18
It's our game, and our responsibility to alleviate cases where people can troll other players and ruin the game's experience for people. So the answer is yes, it is for us to decide.

Great, I agree with your "responsibility to alleviate cases where people can [...] ruin the game's experience for people"

Do you look at the feedback section of the forum? What do most feedbacks have in common? "Nice game, but why do I have to play against <high rank players|low level players>"?

Do you play your own game from time to time? Dont you get matched in lobbies with one player totally not fitting? Or where all higher ranks are being stacked in one team and all the lows in the other?

And now you took the only way of objecting and possibly reshuffling the teams.


This is not the end of the efforts to improve matchmaking and several other solutions will come in to complement this. Oh and... I hear your side of it, too. I happen to think that this new design will allow more matches to start quicker, and this will be well worth the tradeoff but... we'll see in the long run!

Thanks for your feedback!

I really hope you are right with your thoughts. Why quantity should increase quality is something i dont understand yet, but I hope I missed something.

My personal wish though is that those friendly "you get rekt, you ... ... ...! now ... ...!" low levels dont get their fair share of face melting from skilled players anymore. Its an experience all concernd could live without. While there are only a few of these offensive trolls (why would I be the troll there for leaving, Eric?), there are still plenty of matches where a single player (too high or too low) ruins the whole match.

We will see how it plays out. I appreciate your great work, but bringing a bandaid feature that restricts the ways players coped with the games shortcommings is not intuitive to me.

Oss-Kao
10th Jul 2014, 21:20
The reduced throw velocity of the bomb's, are awfull :( I can literally Leap further that throw...


Yeah, its horrible actually...Please tweak it back.

SiD_Green
10th Jul 2014, 21:29
Fireworks, I don't think this is a good solution either. But to me it sounds like you are upset because you can't keep rejoining a lobby until someone else leaves, which absolutely is a form of trolling.

Psyonix_Corey
10th Jul 2014, 21:31
We're keeping an eye on the Reaver bomb changes. I'm not opposed to reverting the change if it's too detrimental, but we will give it some more time to evaluate and collect feedback first.

Psyonix_Eric
10th Jul 2014, 21:48
Do you look at the feedback section of the forum? What do most feedbacks have in common? "Nice game, but why do I have to play against <high rank="" players|low="" level="" players="">"?
We try to read everything in the forums.


Do you play your own game from time to time?
I play my own game ALL of the time. :D It's quite common to see me in games at 2am on a Saturday night. Though I really should be sleeping...


Dont you get matched in lobbies with one player totally not fitting? Or where all higher ranks are being stacked in one team and all the lows in the other?
This is something we're addressing with the upcoming matchmaking changes that Corey has discussed before. We don't have a specific ETA on when that's coming but we understand that it's frustrating. I, too, have been on the receiving end of a butt-kicking by some imbalanced teams (and at 2am that is not fun!) so we're taking it very seriously.


(why would I be the troll there for leaving, Eric?)
I certainly never meant that YOU were a troll. What V_Zephonim was reporting was something that we saw while monitoring games where people were purposefully waiting until the last second and then leaving a lobby, making it so that the match then went back to waiting for another player. These are the kinds of things we are looking to prevent, because it was being done on purpose by people who felt it was funny.
</high>

FireWorks_
10th Jul 2014, 22:06
Fireworks, I don't think this is a good solution either. But to me it sounds like you are upset because you can't keep rejoining a lobby until someone else leaves, which absolutely is a form of trolling.

Rejoin is a way to get a little bit more time for people to talk or even comprehend the situation. Some dont even check the levels and later ingame it goes "oh wow 40!". Some leave midgame then. Lovely. This became a default state now.

I cant control another human, I dont rejoin til someone leaves as Id consider it trolling too. Ive rarely seen people doing this to actually bully out a player - it doesnt work anyway. I will however tell people that they are low and probably better off in a different lobby or new recruit mode. If its the last player 10secs are a short time to type, read and answer.

Some can get really offended there... I also got a screeny of a low guy joining the lobby and starting with his "trashtalk"... Guess whos team gets "rekt" afterwards... However Id call those people trolls too.

Time is one aspect, reshuffling is the other.
Shuffling the stacked high or low players so each team has an equal amount works sometimes. Thats gone now too.


We have only have few tools, now we have fewer.


We try to read everything in the forums.


I play my own game ALL of the time. :D It's quite common to see me in games at 2am on a Saturday night. Though I really should be sleeping...


This is something we're addressing with the upcoming matchmaking changes that Corey has discussed before. We don't have a specific ETA on when that's coming but we understand that it's frustrating. I, too, have been on the receiving end of a butt-kicking by some imbalanced teams (and at 2am that is not fun!) so we're taking it very seriously.


I certainly never meant that YOU were a troll. What V_Zephonim was reporting was something that we saw while monitoring games where people were purposefully waiting until the last second and then leaving a lobby, making it so that the match then went back to waiting for another player. These are the kinds of things we are looking to prevent, because it was being done on purpose by people who felt it was funny.


So, I ask you to kindly have a look at the feedbacks personally.

Id assume you play it a lot. Also out in the wild with the randoms? If so you can find me very often on the EU servers.

I am very often on the delivering end and it feels wrong. It lacks the challenge, its wrong to hit on weaker, it makes you play worse cause bad play still works, etc.

I know its all comming in the future but why make worse for now?

As written above, I perceived the delaying as tool to deal with some shortcommings for now. I dont use it cause i feel its funny, but the behaviour is described as trolling here.

LOFO1993
10th Jul 2014, 22:39
Reducing Reaver bombs' launch distance is a good idea, it could travel way too far before, but maybe 25% is a bit drastic. I think you should try with 10-15%, because right now you literally can't throw it further than 15-18 meters, even if you are on the top of a building aiming at the ground level, which makes no sense.


Also, I noticed that now when a Tyrant uses Ignore Pain his clothes don't change texture (at least from Humans' point of view), which makes it impossible to even notice he's using the ability before you shoot him. It's not in the patch notes, so I guess it's a bug.

DeeArc
11th Jul 2014, 00:14
Deceivers needed that change to Disguise; it was too easy to spot them outside a firefight. So thanks, Psyonix.

I'm a little less keen about the Reaver nerfs. I don't think the problem's how common Reavers are so much as it is how uncommon Tyrants are. Right now, the Vamp teams are Reaver heavy, with two Sents or a Deceiver as support. Is it simply because bombs have been a great impetus upon Humans (which they totally have)? Or is it because Reavers are the most well-rounded? Humans might complain, but most Vamp teams don't feel they've lost much by having two or three Reavers, and I'm not sure having to get closer to do the same thing we always do weeds out that impulse.

On the Human changes...I'm torn. On one hand, it's so frustrating to run Hunter with perks and still see shots miss. Maybe I should be happy with the buff? On the other, the Human meta already shuts out Vamps hard at the highest level. I've played Scouts who snipe whole teams from across the map with nary a miss, and some of the best Alchemists break 20k damage a round. It seems the other way around when Humans are still trying to camp without a good Scout, but once they clue in, they can do what's normally a bad idea- stay put for the entire round, only moving to restock. And that's no fun to play against.

Connatic
11th Jul 2014, 01:05
Backstab
- Base damage reduced to 275 (was 300), backstab damage increased to 550 (was 510)
- Reworked attack animation to improve hit detection

After playing with it a bit, overall it does seem to be an improvement, but I still notice missed backstabs when I seem to be running right into my target. I don't notice this problem as much with regular melee attacks, why is it different for Backstab? Is any of this intentional to add some element of learned skill?


Disguise
- Fade time reduced to 1.0 sec, was 1.25 sec
- While disguised, humans will no longer see hit markers when shooting you
- While disguised, you will no longer play take hit animations when taking damage

Great changes all around. I'm still spotted and killed while being invisible or Disguised so this is a welcome buff.


- Melee damage increased to 205 (was 200)
Did the Deceiver receive an animation change to their basic melee attack combo? I can't remember but it feels a lot smoother now and easier to stay on target.

Dominate Mind - No changes yet, but I can't wait to see some ideas. This ability desperately needs some attention. Not really just buffs, but mechanically it needs some work. If the ability was easier to use that might be all it needs.


Banish Shot
- Replaced with “Hex Shot”

The effects of Hex Shot and Bolas seem to stack. I was shot by both and I was pretty much a sitting duck. I love and hate this at the same time. Just mentioning it to find out for sure if this is intended.



Not sure about the other weapons, but using the Multibow on my Hunter felt a LOT more accurate. The recoil felt more consistent in an upward manner.

[quote]Reaver
- Nerf

I was testing the Deceiver mostly today so I didn't get a feel for the Reaver changes, but I would just like to say I like the intention. The Reaver just doesn't feel like a Jack-of-a-trades...but a Master of...All. Sure Reavers fans might just say to buff the other 3 vampires...but power creep is a thing. If you just buff everything you still have imbalances in the long run, but with bigger numbers to deal with. With all the utility the Reaver has, I agree that his ability to brawl should be toned down like it was.

Saranjivac
11th Jul 2014, 01:59
If anything, non-reavers needed changes to give them more options against good humans. Nerfing humans too much from where they are would just make them feel clunky.
I agree with you on that 100%, i'm just saying that nerfing reavers and buffing recoil at the same time is kinda bad for the high lvl meta.

cmstache
11th Jul 2014, 02:06
Why on Earth? Who wants a 3v4 match to start instead of waiting for an 8th player?
Pre-made parties. I know I've talked to my guys previously about how it'd be cool to force ourselves to playing with a disadvantage or even a 5v3 vote rule and unanimously vote to play with a 2 man disadvantage. Even with "newbies feeding" you just can't make up that much lost firepower 2 people down. 1 man down is already hard enough most of the time. It'd be abused though possibly. :)

PencileyePirate
11th Jul 2014, 04:21
Love most of the changes so far. Hex shot took a little getting used to, but it's still quite useful.

Throw velocity reduction on Reaver grenades is way too drastic. At the current 25% reduction they feel completely useless. I think 10% reduction would have sufficed, or 15% at the very most.

RazielWarmonic
11th Jul 2014, 05:19
This is a very bad bandaid for the matchmaking. If it has to be a bandaid solution, hardlock the newbies out of matches with 30+ players. For their and our good.
Please, for the love of the Elder God, don't do something like this just yet. It's hard enough with the matchmaking system if 1, or even 2 40's to find other players for the lobby, or find lobbies ourselves. I spend half my game time looking for lobbies or waiting for them to fill up. Granted I don't try to play the level 10 > games I can find on occasion, and I do hunt for higher level lobbies so that adds to the wait, but locking people out? That's just ludicrous. I've seen terrible level 40s, and I've seen really good level 20s. This is a terrible solution.


We're keeping an eye on the Reaver bomb changes. I'm not opposed to reverting the change if it's too detrimental, but we will give it some more time to evaluate and collect feedback first.

It... Definitely needs to be scaled back. Reaver now feels incredibly clunky and unplayable. At most maybe 10% off the original if this is what 25% feels like. I also think they need that 50 health back. They are in all in all out type of character, but even with evasion or shadowstep still easily targetable. I'm personally not a Reaver player, but the little time I spent on it today was not enjoyable.

____

Overall, enjoying Hex shot. It's not an ability that makes me want to turn my monitor off anymore.

And as always, put DFA and I on the Sentinel re-work team. I vote for invincibility while flying, kidnap/abduct always landing, air strike detonating instantly and doing 550 damage like Grenade, and I demand someone shine our shoes and polish our claws.

PencileyePirate
11th Jul 2014, 06:39
It... Definitely needs to be scaled back. Reaver now feels incredibly clunky and unplayable. At most maybe 10% off the original if this is what 25% feels like. I also think they need that 50 health back. They are in all in all out type of character, but even with evasion or shadowstep still easily targetable.

I think the HP change makes sense, but it really hurts when the grenade range is so horrible.

Also, MM seems broken. I've joined several zero-player games, as well games that were 6v3 or 3v0 ... and lobbies are occasionally starting with only a few players and/or imbalanced teams. I'd be alright with starting lobbies at 3v3, but this is ridiculous.

Prime_Abstergo
11th Jul 2014, 07:47
and I demand someone shine our shoes and polish our claws. How about a make-up? :rasp:

Tho I have a question regardless new Shroud ability: it still doesn't stack with Berserker perk (which means 24 dmg instead of 20). Is it intended to be so?

lucinvampire
11th Jul 2014, 09:28
Deceiver
- Melee damage increased to 205 (was 200)
Backstab
- Base damage reduced to 275 (was 300), backstab damage increased to 550 (was 510)
- Reworked attack animation to improve hit detection
Disguise
- Fade time reduced to 1.0 sec, was 1.25 sec
- While disguised, humans will no longer see hit markers when shooting you
- While disguised, you will no longer play take hit animations when taking damage
Illusions
- Illusion max health increased to 25% of Deceiver’s health (was 20%)
Phase
- Renamed to “Shroud”

Seems good :D played him a lot last night – no complaints – didn’t use disguise though.



Reaver
- Melee damage reduced to 180 (was 185)
- Base health reduced to 1000 (was 1050)
Shadow Bomb
- Throw velocity reduced by 25% to limit maximum bomb range
Choking Haze
- Throw velocity reduced by 25% to limit maximum bomb range

I shed a tear for Reaver last night – poor little pet took the brunt of it…
Health reduction ok – I can live with that – though they are supposed to be a pretty strong clan so yeah…

Really really really don't like how much the choking haze throw has been reduced – it makes it really really really useless now – seems to go nowhere near as far as it used to…might take a while to get used to if it stays this way. My strong arm was my only skill...and now I no longer have that...sad times :(



Prophet
Banish Shot
- Replaced with “Hex Shot”

Those Prophets are mean…just saying…you get hit by that Hex and you’re pretty much vampire goo.


I had some really bad games last night – I’m not sure if it was because these changes or not (hadn’t played for two weeks). Then again I had a couple of good even games – the bad definitely outweighed the good though – which was a shame – it was pretty much a wipe out every match – apart from one or maybe two matches of the whole evening…

NiamaraWeee
11th Jul 2014, 10:01
Tried Reaver last night and yeah... throwing the bombs now really feels like i'm trying out for the shot-put record... xD

Takes time to get used to, I know... but right now it just feels really unnatural... :/

MasterZtark
11th Jul 2014, 14:00
After testing Reaver yesterday I didn't miss the 50 health or 5 damage, and if the intent was to SLIGHTLY weaken the Reaver instead of giving improvements the other classes I guess this works. No problems there.

But the throw distance reduction is sad. The hot-spot camping areas for the humans can not be hit with the smoke bomb/choking haze no more, unless you basically jump the wall/building/cover and walk half way through the open-field (which just gets you insta-killed lol). I know the new player thinks these moves (specifically choking haze) are overpowered, but most descent player will tell you these moves are NOT OP at all (once you learn the basics of the game, they are quite easy to dodge and ineffective at causing any damage)! They need no change, not even 10% throw reduction. I don't know if this 25% is just a set up so next patch we're all happy about it only being 10% then, or back to full distance but does less damage/lower radius/lower duration/etc.
Basically being the only area denial moves in the game for Vampires, this move really needs to do its job correctly (regardless of which class uses them, sadly it's the reaver though who is a master-of-all). Humans can use basic strategies for Nosgoth far too easily when the bombs can't push them out of those impenetrable spots.

Psyonix_Corey
11th Jul 2014, 17:28
I think the HP change makes sense, but it really hurts when the grenade range is so horrible.

Also, MM seems broken. I've joined several zero-player games, as well games that were 6v3 or 3v0 ... and lobbies are occasionally starting with only a few players and/or imbalanced teams. I'd be alright with starting lobbies at 3v3, but this is ridiculous.

Can you take a note of the names of the servers you're seeing with these issues and post them in the Bugs forum so we can investigate?

Whoopdidoohah
11th Jul 2014, 18:15
General
- Twitch.tv integration is now live! This is a work in progress feature, and will be improved and optimised further in future updates.

Deceiver
- Melee damage increased to 205 (was 200)
Good change I thought Deceiver needed either mor survivability or more DPS.

Backstab
- Base damage reduced to 275 (was 300), backstab damage increased to 550 (was 510)
- Reworked attack animation to improve hit detection
I think hit detection on backstab needs more fixing because I'll miss on hits I should've hit and hit on clear misses (like when the human dodges sideways and I still land my backstab). Inconsistency. As a whole, the deceiver melee hits seem inconsistent and I even saw a whole clan start **** about me evading their melee hits repeatedly and killing them, they accused me of hacks, nonsense.

Disguise
- Fade time reduced to 1.0 sec, was 1.25 sec
- While disguised, humans will no longer see hit markers when shooting you
- While disguised, you will no longer play take hit animations when taking damage
Illusions
- Illusion max health increased to 25% of Deceiver’s health (was 20%)
Phase
- Renamed to “Shroud”
This needs a damage buff because good humans can see and kill you and it's risk vs reward is quite bad, considering deceiver dies as fast as reaver when caught.



Reaver
- Melee damage reduced to 180 (was 185)This is an unneeded nerf. What needs a tweak is the Evasion skill, too powerful. Or the other one when you get an immunity and teleports you out of trouble. Those 'out of jail' cards are too much. Reaver's damage is adequate, their survivability 'ohh snap' buttons are too much.

- Base health reduced to 1000 (was 1050)
Shadow Bomb
- Throw velocity reduced by 25% to limit maximum bomb range

Choking Haze
- Throw velocity reduced by 25% to limit maximum bomb rangeI'm ok with those changes, still poweful, just needs to get closer wich was needed anyway for well placed grenades. Rarely have I been able to throw efficiently from max distance.


Prophet
Banish Shot
- Replaced with “Hex Shot”
- Fires a projectile instead of an instant hit beam, so cannot snipe with it anymore
- Interrupts attacks and abilities such as Pounce, Kidnap, etc. but does not cancel flight or other movement. Disables attacks and abilities for its duration.
- Victims are slowed by 50%, but can dodge roll and climb walls.
- Breaks if sufficient damage is taken by target (similar to Bola)
- Cooldown is now 15 seconds (was 20)

Vampires
- Execution can no longer be cancelled after you have fed on your victim

Human Weapon Recoil
- Ironsights recoil reduction increased to 30% (was 25%)
- Recoil on Prophet Pistols, Hunter Crossbows, and Scout Bows reduced slightlyHumans don't need buffs, especially ones with quick guns like Hunter and Prophet. You lost precision if you didn't shoot in bursts, and frankly Scout needs a slight nerf
/10 chars


After testing Reaver yesterday I didn't miss the 50 health or 5 damage, and if the intent was to SLIGHTLY weaken the Reaver instead of giving improvements the other classes I guess this works. No problems there.

But the throw distance reduction is sad. The hot-spot camping areas for the humans can not be hit with the smoke bomb/choking haze no more, unless you basically jump the wall/building/cover and walk half way through the open-field (which just gets you insta-killed lol). I know the new player thinks these moves (specifically choking haze) are overpowered, but most descent player will tell you these moves are NOT OP at all (once you learn the basics of the game, they are quite easy to dodge and ineffective at causing any damage)! They need no change, not even 10% throw reduction. I don't know if this 25% is just a set up so next patch we're all happy about it only being 10% then, or back to full distance but does less damage/lower radius/lower duration/etc.
Basically being the only area denial moves in the game for Vampires, this move really needs to do its job correctly (regardless of which class uses them, sadly it's the reaver though who is a master-of-all). Humans can use basic strategies for Nosgoth far too easily when the bombs can't push them out of those impenetrable spots.
These bombs are meant to spread the human team and or to catch them flat footed inside a house, or to take advantage of having a Tyrant opening on them, stunning them IN your choking haze. When you play with randoms it's quite weak, but if you play with a Tyrant teammate with voice comm , you can basically wipe a whole team (you know that infamous QUAD KILL) with it, wich I did, more than once. Have two sentinels flying around, humans will get inside a house, send the Tyrant in, uses charge (stuns), ground slam (stuns), at same time you place the choking haze under the Tyrant's feet, and bingo you just got the entire human team more than half dead if not dead. If Tyrant **** up he uses Ignore pain and get out, if humans stay outside Sentinels pick them up and reaver pounces on them. Choking haze is STILL one of the most powerful vampire skills just don't use it 'on cooldown' and wait for the right oportunity to deal max damage.

FireWorks_
11th Jul 2014, 18:59
These bombs are meant to spread the human team and or to catch them flat footed inside a house, or to take advantage of having a Tyrant opening on them, stunning them IN your choking haze. When you play with randoms it's quite weak, but if you play with a Tyrant teammate with voice comm , you can basically wipe a whole team (you know that infamous QUAD KILL) with it, wich I did, more than once. Have two sentinels flying around, humans will get inside a house, send the Tyrant in, uses charge (stuns), ground slam (stuns), at same time you place the choking haze under the Tyrant's feet, and bingo you just got the entire human team more than half dead if not dead. If Tyrant ****s up he uses Ignore pain and GTFO, if humans stay outside Sentinels pick them up and reaver pounces on them. Choking haze is STILL one of the most powerful vampire skills just don't use it 'on cooldown' and wait for the right oportunity to deal max damage.

Assuming the humans are bad players is not a good base for a game mechanics discussion.

Whoopdidoohah
11th Jul 2014, 19:51
So what is your points actually ? That you,re actually the bad reaver that can't throw his choking haze if not from max range ?

My point is that, given the nerf to distance, choking haze is STILL a very efficient skill and realistically the only skill that can wipe a whole team of 'bad' (maybe) human players. It IS extremely powerful if the reaver isn't a noob throwing it on cooldown from 1 km away. You throw it oportunistically when the human team has a handful of other things to watch for. If they are waiting for your choking haze to immediately dodge out of it you're using it unproperly.

Basically what I'm saying is that you DON'T open up with choking haze all the time, it makes it predictable, and as bad as the human team that wipes to it because they're so damn too close to each other. There are situations where opening up with choking haze will be the best and situations where you'd better up be waiting for an oportunity to catch the human team flat footed, cornered and CCed.


Deceivers needed that change to Disguise; it was too easy to spot them outside a firefight. So thanks, Psyonix.

I'm a little less keen about the Reaver nerfs. I don't think the problem's how common Reavers are so much as it is how uncommon Tyrants are. Right now, the Vamp teams are Reaver heavy, with two Sents or a Deceiver as support. Is it simply because bombs have been a great impetus upon Humans (which they totally have)? Or is it because Reavers are the most well-rounded? Humans might complain, but most Vamp teams don't feel they've lost much by having two or three Reavers, and I'm not sure having to get closer to do the same thing we always do weeds out that impulse.

On the Human changes...I'm torn. On one hand, it's so frustrating to run Hunter with perks and still see shots miss. Maybe I should be happy with the buff? On the other, the Human meta already shuts out Vamps hard at the highest level. I've played Scouts who snipe whole teams from across the map with nary a miss, and some of the best Alchemists break 20k damage a round. It seems the other way around when Humans are still trying to camp without a good Scout, but once they clue in, they can do what's normally a bad idea- stay put for the entire round, only moving to restock. And that's no fun to play against.

My take.

The reason people play mostly Reavers is that they're the easiest class to stay alive on, assuming they all and STILL and ONLY use the evasion secondary ability. This ability is so powerful if you mess up a pounce or melee attack and the ennemy then Bolas you, you hit that 'out of jail' card and you can pull off a retreat almost 100% of the time, regen some HP on a rooftop while your abilities CD finishes. Also, Evasion can be used to 'tank' the ennemy fire for your team to come in and deal their damage.

Really, it makes reavers even better than Tyrants to disrupt / tank a few hits and get out of sight, because when you hit Evasion you usually don,t take any damage, while if a Tyrant uses Ignore pain he'll still take some damage by the time he's out of sight. For example, open up Using leap attack, then Evasion to destabilize the human team, making them unloading their clips futilessly while your damage dealers come in. I can't count the # of times I hit 'Ignore pain' while I'm focused fired and barely make it out alive or still die, while when I use Evasion it's almost a 100% escape unless alchemist / hunter can land a bomb on me fast moving and dodging target, and even then usually I still have more HP left on Reaver than Tyrant. And even, Alchemists ammo don't even explode on impact since they don't 'hit' you (not sure on that one, but when I play Alchemist it seems that my ammo can't hit a Reaver that just used Evasion, only explosions of ammo and light bomb / hunter's grenades seem to be)

Heck even Shadow step is very good at getting out of trouble, but not as good as Evasion IMO.

IMO slightly tweak Evasion so it dodges 75% of the hits and then the multiple reavers teams will be less rampant. Or reduce the duration by 1s, making it less potent. The thing I noticed the most while playing Reaver, even against experienced premades, is that I die much less even if I play cautiously on the other vamps.

FireWorks_
11th Jul 2014, 20:26
Blub


My point is that your experience seems to base on low level games against bad opponents and you cannot tranfer it to high level play. Your arguments are mostly invalid when you encounter high level play.

PencileyePirate
11th Jul 2014, 20:39
Evasion is balanced fine as it is, please don't ruin it because inexperienced players don't know how to counter. AOE and explosive skills work great, and if the Reaver is low-HP you only need to follow for 4 seconds before he becomes an easy kill (while not always a good idea, making that choice is a skill in and of its own.)

Maybe it should be made more obvious to new players that explosives/AOE works against Evasion.


Can you take a note of the names of the servers you're seeing with these issues and post them in the Bugs forum so we can investigate?

Didn't pay attention to server numbers last night, but they were all NA East or NA West.

If it happens again tonight I'll be sure to do so.

Psyonix_Corey
11th Jul 2014, 20:58
Evasion is balanced fine as it is, please don't ruin it because inexperienced players don't know how to counter. AOE and explosive skills work great, and if the Reaver is low-HP you only need to follow for 4 seconds before he becomes an easy kill (while not always a good idea, making that choice is a skill in and of its own.)

Maybe it should be made more obvious to new players that explosives/AOE works against Evasion.

It's a fine line. I do currently think Evasion is a big part of the problem with low level balance, but the reason it hasn't changed is because of how risky a change like that would be. I'm extremely hesitant to consider solutions like Whoopidoohah suggested (75% dodge rate) because it introduces RNG into a survival cooldown which never feels good - you can't trust your ability anymore, and dying with it active feels like bad luck, not a tactical mistake.

One change we've considered is halving the duration and cooldown. This isn't a straight nerf because it also means you can use it tactically (Bola break, getaway, etc.) twice as often which may actually be more useful to high skill players in some scenarios, but it makes it harder for newbies to (Press F for Invincibility) for 4 seconds of getaway. This has not seen enough playtesting to have meaningful feedback on it internally yet, though.

If we do see positive results from that change, an option might be to halve the default Evasion (2 sec duration / 12 sec CD) but introduce a variant that has the existing functionality. Then experienced players could still use (current) Evasion without it adversely affecting the low level game as much.

MasterZtark
11th Jul 2014, 21:42
I noticed a lot of the outdated descriptions on abilities were updated (I think that was from this patch anyway), which was much needed. Evasion still says the Reaver takes "reduced damage from area attacks" though. I thought that part was removed from the ability a few months ago. Probably just missed in the description update is all, or I'm just completely wrong (happens a lot). :)

Oh, was Tyrant's Shockwave damage lowered to 300 (was 350) ? Been practicing with Throw since its release so kind of forget what good ol' Shockwave was at before. Didn't see any mention of it in the patch notes though, so I might just be crazy. lol

SiD_Green
11th Jul 2014, 21:53
If Evasion has a 2 second duration, I think some aoe reduction should be returned to it. Otherwise, it would be mostly for breaking bolas.

TapxJames
11th Jul 2014, 23:35
New lobby change is broken, people are abusing it incidentally and intentionally. Instead of launching at 4v4 and then someone ragequiting you're having clowns ragequiting at 2 seconds and launching 4vs2 or 4vs0 matches.

Acesxi
12th Jul 2014, 00:13
I'm going to have to agree with TapX here, The new lobby is pretty hard to deal with, Lobbies and grouping with friends is still the hardest part to get around in this game. other than that I think that the new changes to classes are great. I think there is already a "meta" and even just playing yesterday I saw great variety in the teams. Deceivers are pretty fun to play now. Anyway keep up the good work!

Aces

MasterZtark
12th Jul 2014, 01:59
Prophet and Deceiver loadouts are not saving again, the other classes are working though.

EDIT: Oh! Hunter Grenades are still randomly disappearing when thrown. He makes the throw motion but no grenade is actually thrown (or explosion later, of course) and your ability goes on cooldown like you did actually use it.

Blackdeathteal
12th Jul 2014, 02:12
The Reaver nurf has been a long time coming, the whole poison spam savage pounce x 3 or 4 gets old fast a small range check doesnt really make a difference. On that frame of mind Hunters really need the same treatment, most games consists of min 3 reavers and 3 hunters.

Saturnity
12th Jul 2014, 04:08
If people were disrupting matchmaking by joining and exiting lobbies every two seconds, why not add an increasing search cooldown? It doesn't even need to apply for the first few lobby quits.

MasterZtark
12th Jul 2014, 13:35
If people were disrupting matchmaking by joining and exiting lobbies every two seconds, why not add an increasing search cooldown? It doesn't even need to apply for the first few lobby quits.

This would be nice. Or maybe if you leave the same lobby more than a few times, matchmaking won't try putting you back in it until the game has started and finished. There are a few times I'm just not in the mood to play a match that's obviously going to be extremely unbalanced (too many high levels grouped, too many low levels in lobby, or whatever the reason). We leave and try to find a different lobby, but usually just keep getting sent right back to the same one. The people in the lobby start getting pissed and think you're "griefing" them or something.

RainaAudron
12th Jul 2014, 13:55
If people were disrupting matchmaking by joining and exiting lobbies every two seconds, why not add an increasing search cooldown? It doesn't even need to apply for the first few lobby quits.

I don´t know, with the matchmaking being currently so unstable... constantly having huge issues with joining friend´s games - keeps putting me in a totally different match than my friends are in, so I have to quit.

Shikei001
12th Jul 2014, 21:30
Hex Shot

Interrupts attacks and abilities such as Pounce, Kidnap, etc. but does not cancel flight or other movement. Disables attacks and abilities for its duration.
Me and a friend tried around a bit and we both managed it to make a flying Senti drop.. Don't know if it is a bug or they droped because they used Abduct and we canceled their skill..
Would be nice if someone could clear this up.

And if u use hex on a jumping Tyrant they get teleported To the ground.. (Maybe just Fall very fast ?)

SiD_Green
13th Jul 2014, 00:44
Also it seems to stop your current movement; I was holding forward and got hexed, and stood still for a second or two. Don't know if this was intentional, but it's deadly combined with the MS reduction.

MasterZtark
13th Jul 2014, 03:27
Our Profile tab still lists the Prophet's Hex Shot Kills as "Banish Shot Kills" and the Deceiver's Shroud Kills as "Phase Kills".

Numeta
13th Jul 2014, 08:45
Any update on when the loot system is being upgraded/fixed so I know when to come back and play? I'm sorry but I have like 180 hours played and not a single item drop. (non perk)

Bettik
13th Jul 2014, 16:16
I don't like this direction at all. You're making the game about sustained damage for the humans. Interrupts are what make the game fun. It gives tactical variety. Banish/Hex Shot provided that. Now that it can't effectively interrupt anything, it's kind of worthless. I agree with removing the hitscan aspect and forcing aim and precision, but removing all the interrupt from it was wrong.

SiD_Green
13th Jul 2014, 16:59
What do you mean, Hex shot does interrupt things, in addition to disabling your attacks/abilities

TendrilSavant
14th Jul 2014, 05:03
It's a fine line. I do currently think Evasion is a big part of the problem with low level balance, but the reason it hasn't changed is because of how risky a change like that would be.

I'm glad to hear that you guys feel this way. I personally feel that once Reaver's are balanced better a lot of the player retention and ragequit problems should be lessened. In my opinion the recent changes have been good, even the recent Reaver bomb change.


One change we've considered is halving the duration and cooldown. This isn't a straight nerf because it also means you can use it tactically (Bola break, getaway, etc.)

This reminds me too much of the initial release of shadow step. This ended up synergistic with leap and kick too well, just throwing that out there.

As for evasion, how about allowing Evasion to work best at a distance while not as good at close range? What I mean is that Evasion should work the way it does now at a distance dodging everything but AOE's, but at close range a human could also damage the Reaver with crossbows, bows, pistols or handcannons (evade should still dodge CC's even at close range, probably).

http://s6.postimg.org/htw4dfnbh/Evasion01.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/htw4dfnbh/)

In the example above, the inside of the circle represents the distance where the Reaver is "vulnerable". Hunter A is close to him and able to damage him with his crossbow. Hunter B is far away, maybe 10-20ft away, and so all his shots are evaded but he could still use AOE abilities to damage the Reaver.

I know a lot of people aren't going to like this suggestions, but honestly evasion has been one of the best, if not THE best ability since I started playing near the end of Alpha. Evasions isn't strong because people don't know how to counter it, but rather that it has very little downside and just shuts down too much of the humans arsenal.

As far as humans go, I believe the damage output is much better than it's been. One thing I would change though is self damage from AOE's, it's far to low and forgiving. I suggested this awhile ago, but I still see a lot of people still using volley and other AOE abilities as pseudo-shields skirting around the edges taking minor damage, not to mention jumping on your own grenade with little consequences.

Shikei001
14th Jul 2014, 12:01
I don't like this direction at all. You're making the game about sustained damage for the humans. Interrupts are what make the game fun. It gives tactical variety. Banish/Hex Shot provided that. Now that it can't effectively interrupt anything, it's kind of worthless. I agree with removing the hitscan aspect and forcing aim and precision, but removing all the interrupt from it was wrong.
I don't know what u mean because I like the new Hex Shot even more right now, u can "banish" a jumping Tyrant (make him fall), u can "banish" a flying Senti (make him fall also (bug ?)), u can interrupt a Reaver's Leap/Pounce and u can disable the Invisibility/Phase of a Deceiver. In all cases if the Vampire don't get major back-up from his Teammates, he's dead... because all u can do after ur "banished" is roll and climb.. walking is more than ineffectiv and skills work only after the dmg-boundary is reached. For that much +Points it's only natural that the activation rate is rly long and it's way harder to hit than before.


In the example above, the inside of the circle represents the distance where the Reaver is "vulnerable". Hunter A is close to him and able to damage him with his crossbow. Hunter B is far away, maybe 10-20ft away, and so all his shots are evaded but he could still use AOE abilities to damage the Reaver.

I know a lot of people aren't going to like this suggestions, but honestly evasion has been one of the best, if not THE best ability since I started playing near the end of Alpha. Evasions isn't strong because people don't know how to counter it, but rather that it has very little downside and just shuts down too much of the humans arsenal.
I rly like that :D and it makes perfect sense dodging flying objects which travel at a specific speed are way harder to dodge if the travel distance is shorter.
Maybe some same mechanism would be a good fix for the Senti's Echolocation too :) *HINT* :D


As far as humans go, I believe the damage output is much better than it's been. One thing I would change though is self damage from AOE's, it's far to low and forgiving. I suggested this awhile ago, but I still see a lot of people still using volley and other AOE abilities as pseudo-shields skirting around the edges taking minor damage, not to mention jumping on your own grenade with little consequences.
I totally agree with that aswell, because I often use it that way *shame*... especially arrow volly is a very usefull "shield"... and getting more dmg out of the aoe attack's could possibly fix the problem at high lv fights that the humans normally win.

MasterZtark
14th Jul 2014, 13:19
As far as Evasion goes I would much rather see it left alone and have the Reavers "nerfed" in some other ways. Actually, I would rather see the other Vampire classes "buffed" with more abilities and roles but obviously it will take a lot of time for the devs to crank that stuff out. Evasion isn't OP at all in standard mid-level play or higher. Evasion not having any AoE protection (and players that know to use them on the Evasion Reaver) and only lasting 4 seconds really doesn't give them a "Get out of jail free card" at all in most situations. I can't speak for the low-level play though, and I know that's the only place it is becoming an issue...

Reducing the Reavers health and melee damage even further sounds like the best solution to me, and easily reversed if needed further down the road for re-balance. I feel like the Reaver is meant to be a sneaky little ninja, rarely seen, and when he is he has some reliable tools to get out (But not from the worst of situations). Lower health means he really needs to be that sneaky in-and-out class, and lower damage means he's not some bruiser/brawler. He's about getting in sneaky and quick, hitting hard with a charged melee and/or special ability, then ninja vanishing away. He should not be sticking it out fighting the human army, and lower health/melee damage will fix that in my opinion.

Shikei001
14th Jul 2014, 16:54
Reducing the Reavers health and melee damage even further sounds like the best solution to me, and easily reversed if needed further down the road for re-balance. I feel like the Reaver is meant to be a sneaky little ninja, rarely seen, and when he is he has some reliable tools to get out (But not from the worst of situations). Lower health means he really needs to be that sneaky in-and-out class, and lower damage means he's not some bruiser/brawler. He's about getting in sneaky and quick, hitting hard with a charged melee and/or special ability, then ninja vanishing away. He should not be sticking it out fighting the human army, and lower health/melee damage will fix that in my opinion.

I wouldn't recomment that because there are still some Players who play with shadowstep, and that wouldn't only hit the Evasion problem. Reaver is already the Vamp with the lowest health and dmg, and if u mean sneaky little ninja I think u discribe more the Deceiver with his invisibility and his backstab. But he already got more HP and more dmg than the Reaver (witch is strange (lore and stuff) anyway thats another thema^^).

RainaAudron
14th Jul 2014, 20:00
But he already got more HP and more dmg than the Reaver (witch is strange (lore and stuff) anyway thats another thema^^).

What does that have to do with lore at all?

TendrilSavant
14th Jul 2014, 21:48
Actually, I would rather see the other Vampire classes "buffed" with more abilities and roles but obviously it will take a lot of time for the devs to crank that stuff out.

I disagree. If you look at the most of the recent updates, you can see a constant steady buffs to every vampire but the Reaver, which has mostly been getting nerfs. All the minor upgrades the vampires have had have helped but haven't broken balance in my opinion. From this I can infer that there is a high skew in the devs data that shows that players are doing to well with Reavers, and not that the other vampires are only slightly under powered.


Evasion isn't OP at all in standard mid-hlevel play or higer.

I really hate this argument, especially since we have never had true high level play in this game. We've had a few teams arrange scrims I think, but not enough to constitute a high level play competitive scene. A lobby full of 40lvl players doesn't necessarily mean high level play.

If you meant that intermediate players and experience players can deal with Evasion, that's also not a good defense either. Experienced players will be better at adapting in general; but if mechanics seem unbalanced at the low levels, people will quit before they get that experience and the community can grow.


Reducing the Reavers health and melee damage even further sounds like the best solution to me, and easily reversed if needed further down the road for re-balance.
Theres actually a lot of various tweaks that could be made to the Reaver to balance him, but it really depends on the role the Devs want for him.

Anyway, another possible way to re-balance Evasion is to only allow players to evade what they're facing. This would change Evasion from a reactive ability to a proactive.

What I mean by Reactive vs Proactive:

reactive: done in response to a problem or situation : reacting to problems when they occur instead of doing something to prevent them

proactive: controlling a situation by making things happen or by preparing for possible future problems


Most of the vampires defensive skills are proactive: Ignore Pain, Take Off, Shroud and even Shodowstep. You can use them to retreat and to help control the direction of combat to a degree. Evasion is strictly reactive, you use it to get out of unfavorable situation and reset combat.

If you had to look at what you wanted to evade it would increase the skill ceiling of the ability and give humans a chance to counter the ability without rallying on AOE's. How satisfying would it be to bola a Reaver from behind because he's not aware of his situation? Even more, how satisfying would it be to be a Reaver using evade and hear a bola coming at you and being able to turn around and dodge it?

SiD_Green
15th Jul 2014, 00:25
Ignore pain and Shroud have nothing to do with the direction you are facing, they operate the same as Evasion. And hating that argument makes no sense to me; why should the lowest levels of play effect the balance? They need to learn to use the skills properly. Otherwise, what are you balancing? You'd just be bandaging ignorance.

MasterZtark
15th Jul 2014, 00:26
In my opinion the other classes don't really need the buffs to their stats and what has been happening lately, they needed new abilities that allow them to play more than the small amount of roles they currently can. Obviously it's just easier/faster to increase their damage or whatever than making/testing new abilities though. I think that really is the "problem" with the Reavers, they weren't OP or anything they just had a lot more options/play styles available to them (and the only area denial moves in the game, which makes them very popular/needed on a team).

"Experienced players will be better at adapting in general; but if mechanics seem unbalanced at the low levels, people will quit before they get that experience and the community can grow."
Yes I agree new players are very important, but to a new person just about everything in the game is considered "unbalanced". If you stand still in an AoE that doesn't make those moves unbalanced, it just means you need to learn the basics of the game. There is a sense of accomplishment when you do learn what and what not to do in the game. There comes a point where you're sacrificing the balance of the large majority of players at the mid-level (and higher) just to please the people that don't have a clue what to do YET in the game. I would really hate for the game to be dumbed down so much for new people that no one ever wants to stick around playing because it's boring.

I really do like your Evasion idea though, mainly because it rewards "skill". The new/low-level players won't be as skillful at using it properly, and thus it will never be the "get out jail free card" that it apparently is right now for those players. The better you are it using it, the more rewarding it is and better it will be in higher levels of play. I really think you could even lower the current cooldown to like 20 or even 15 seconds if it functioned like that, as it already seems perfectly balanced now outside of the low-level games (we want to balance it for new players, not break it for everyone else at the same time). Honestly I feel like every skill in the game should work like that; very hard to use but also very rewarding if you do learn/master it. It makes it balanced for all levels of play.

TendrilSavant
15th Jul 2014, 02:51
Ignore pain and Shroud have nothing to do with the direction you are facing, they operate the same as Evasion.
But they have disadvantages that balance the ability. You can still kill a Tyrant or Deceiver with those abilities as long as you chose your tactics wisely while their abilities are activated. In addition, you need to have around 300hp for the ability to be useful as a retreating tactic. You still need to be aware of your surroundings and act accordingly.

Not only can you use Evasion at lower healths and still run away, all you really have to worry about is avoiding Hunters and Alchemist while retreating. This means your retreat tactics are much simpler which gives you much more breathing room while retreating.


And hating that argument makes no sense to me; why should the lowest levels of play effect the balance? They need to learn to use the skills properly. Otherwise, what are you balancing? You'd just be bandaging ignorance.
Because I've heard that argument on other F2P game forums where the community had hopes for esports, those games are nearly dead now.

Also, if the Devs are still reevaluating skills then that means those skills are stronger and more oppressive than they tough they'd be. For example Choking Haze has been tweaked nearly every other update in the hopes of finding the right balance for that ability. As a game in Beta, we are part of the development; nothing is final yet; your argument is essentially "get good" for a game that's still in Beta, which is already very different than it was in Alpha.


I agree new players are very important, but to a new person just about everything in the game is considered "unbalanced".

Maybe some new players, but not all. Those players who won't even give it a couple hours weren't going to stay to begin with, that's part of the territory when it comes to F2P games. But those who stick around for at least ten hours will start to see trends, start figuring out what works for them and what things they have a hard time countering. You're giving new players too little credit in my opinion, we were all new at one point.


There is a sense of accomplishment when you do learn what and what not to do in the game.

This is true, to a degree. Unfortunately, to get that sense of accomplishment you also have to feel invested in the game. This is easier if you've paid money to the game, and is actually an integral part of F2P games. Other people might feel invested due to their love of the franchise or their fondness of this genre of gaming. It's all psychological, but I'm no expert.


There comes a point where you're sacrificing the balance of the large majority of players at the mid-level (and higher) just to please the people that don't have a clue what to do YET in the game. I would really hate for the game to be dumbed down so much for new people that no one ever wants to stick around playing because it's boring.

Here's where we enter the grey area of game design. I'm a strong believer that game balance is most important at the beginner level. This doesn't mean you design your game to be easy, but that it is easy to understand and intuitive.

For example Kidnap has changed greatly since Alpha. It was very hard for beginners to use, but if you mastered it it was nearly impossible to for someone to avoid it. It wasn't so much that people were new and didn't know how to use it but that it wasn't very intuitive and required a lot of trial and error to get the timing right. This created a huge disparity in skill for that class, you were either weighting your team down or carrying them to victory.

High level play or "Meta" will develop regardless of low level play. Hard core gamers will always find the best tactics and best abilities.

And finally, I'm not in favor of dumbing down this game. I want this game to reward skill more than anything.

GenFeelGood
15th Jul 2014, 03:36
In my opinion the other classes don't really need the buffs to their stats and what has been happening lately, they needed new abilities that allow them to play more than the small amount of roles they currently can. Obviously it's just easier/faster to increase their damage or whatever than making/testing new abilities though. I think that really is the "problem" with the Reavers, they weren't OP or anything they just had a lot more options/play styles available to them (and the only area denial moves in the game, which makes them very popular/needed on a team).


I agree 100%, but, in the other vampire classes defense, I have played games where the Reaver was not the right one for me to use.

I have had plenty of matches where 2 or more of my team were either timid (too unsure to make a move promptly) so they didn't act until it was too late and quickly ended up dead themselves or kamikazes (charging in without any direction, probably like they did in new recruit) that just get blown away as they encounter a team of humans that all shoot straight. When those rounds happen the best place for me has been as the Deceiver, backstabbing 1 or more of these camped humans and getting some kills so we go down with something.

I do want the other vampire classes to be as versatile in other roles like the Reaver is, with each class exceeding further in one of these roles over the other, as opposed to just being specialized for a set situation; but I will say that the Reaver isn't always the best choice like others have said.

Whoopdidoohah
15th Jul 2014, 15:38
To 'experienced' players, let me know who's worthy of being called an 'experienced player' because I'm playing with and against people on this forum, lvl 40s, and my tactics works as well against them as anybody else. And Evasion serves it's purposes no matter how strong the humans are, unless you're going to come here and pretend that you never miss your grenade on a dodging and evading Reaver (stop with the BS please). And I'll reiterate, Choking haze is still a very strong skill even with the range nerf (dosen't affect my playstyle at all, as I'd rather get closer for a more accurate throw)

1st of, thank you Corey to aknowledge the Evasion problem at lower levels. Reavers are the easy mode class ATM. When there are 2 or 3 good reavers on a team, it's almost impossible to kill anyone.

2nd, nerfing melee damage and HP is the easy way out, I'd rather you not do it, because it will pidgeon hole the class as 'must've Evasion or you suck'. Slitghtly tweak Evasion, and I liked your proposal, 2s duration for half the cooldown. Right now, 4s duration is too much IMO.

3rd, IMO I want you to buff / add options to the Deceiver as well. We've talked about Reaver, now let me suggest a few 'defensive' skills for the Deceiver:

- Damage reflect, secondary ability, for 2 secs, reflect 50% damage, to the human that dealt it. Would go along the new 2s Evasion ability. Deceiver takes 50% of the damage. Reflects EVERYTHING. Would be used as emergency when hearing a grenade nearby for example.

- Dominate weaponry, special ability, for 4 secs, you can use the weapon of the controlled human on his teammates. No abilities, no movement. Deals at most 400 total dmg.

- Confusing stab, primary ability, for 2 secs, the teammates around your target have their mouse axis inverted. Very short range (like sticky grenade), confusing stab deals regular melee damage.

- Sleeping shadow, secondary ability, for 6 seconds, you become invisible and sleep nearby humans for as long as you're near them, breaks on damage. Once it breaks can't be sleep again for 20 secs. While activated, Deceiver takes double damage.

Just a few suggestions.

keep up the good work.

MasterZtark
15th Jul 2014, 16:26
I like most of your Deceiver ideas, and I think everyone agrees the Deceiver def needs some love. All the recent changes to him really weren't buffs at (well, the extra 5 damage was I guess); Lowering base Backstab damage but raising damage from behind is fair trade off, fixing hit box detection on Backstab is just something that should always have been working correctly, and everything to Disguise and Illusions are very minor and really just never should have been that way to begin with. I hope no one thinks, "Deceivers just got a lot of buffs, they don't need anything else!"

This had me a bit confused though:

And Evasion serves it's purposes no matter how strong the humans are, unless you're going to come here and pretend that you never miss your grenade on a dodging and evading Reaver (stop with the BS please). And I'll reiterate, Choking haze is still a very strong skill even with the range nerf (dosen't affect my playstyle at all, as I'd rather get closer for a more accurate throw)


Never miss? No one never misses anything... but, most new players obviously miss their normal attacks and abilities far more often than people that have played for a good while. The strength of a skill like Evasion should not be decided by new people with lack of practice/skill with their weapons and abilities.

A lot of people forget you need to switch up your tactics/abilities/classes based on what your enemy is doing to counter them.

Hunters can be pretty good Evasion counters. Grenade is usually only good versus Evasion Reavers when they are climbing up a building and you chuck the Grenade up on the roof to finish them off. Otherwise, I would say Explosive Shot is way better at taking out a Reaver using Evasion. Seeing as it's the default ability everyone starts with, it's probably a good to switch to this if Evasion is too strong against your team. Grenade is def my favorite Hunter secondary ability, and most of the time it is flat out better, but versus a Reaver that comes in and pounces/leaps/kicks one of your teammates then casual walks away with Evasion on it usually is not.

Alchemists are pretty good at stopping Evasion as well. Light Bomb is amazing at it, and her Cannons aren't bad either especially for a normal weapon. Their secondaries aren't that great, but can potentially finish the job off with Flamewall/Flamethrower if they popped Evasion close by you and thought they could just stroll right out of the area, or you can throw a Poison Cloud for at least some minor damage (I like to put them on the rooftops they are climbing to, so they have to jump down the other side and by then the 4 seconds are up and they are vulnerable).

Scouts aren't that good at stopping Evasion, probably not a good idea to stack a bunch of them to combat Evasion if it's a problem for your team. Stormbow is iffy, but can work sometimes. Volley is really your best bet, usually for covering rooftops that Reavers may escape to (or a few scouts can really blanket a large area of ground/rooftops making it hard to escape). Trap can be descent as well with some prediction. Turret's not so good though.

Prophets pretty much suck versus Evasion tactics, and really should be avoided at all costs if Evasion is an issue for your team. Although a well timed Disabling Curse can prevent the Reaver from even using Evasion to begin with, which makes them an easy kill. So I guess they can potentially be very good Evasion-counters in the right hands (a new player will probably never pull this off correctly though).

Are you going to take out a Reaver using Evasion every single time without fail? No. It's just the new/low-level players that aren't very accurate, have little experience with the game, and/or just don't know what classes/abilities to switch to in order to counter it better are always going to see it as OP.


Oh, and that bit about Choking Haze... Strong skill, yes, it is the vampires only area denial abilities basically. Very important for their success. Overpowered? Not at all. You yourself even said you're not as accurate at a distance with them, which probably means new/low-level players are terrible at a distance. All the nerf really did was hurt the majority of players at mid-level that did know how to throw them well. The distance was very important, even though you may not have used it that way, as now people can sit in the far corner where you won't be able to hit them unless you expose yourself and get shredded (versus descent players/teams anyway).

Whoopdidoohah
15th Jul 2014, 16:57
I like most of your Deceiver ideas, and I think everyone agrees the Deceiver def needs some love. All the recent changes to him really weren't buffs at (well, the extra 5 damage was I guess); Lowering base Backstab damage but raising damage from behind is fair trade off, fixing hit box detection on Backstab is just something that should always have been working correctly, and everything to Disguise and Illusions are very minor and really just never should have been that way to begin with. I hope no one thinks, "Deceivers just got a lot of buffs, they don't need anything else!"

This had me a bit confused though:


Never miss? No one never misses anything... but, most new players obviously miss their normal attacks and abilities far more often than people that have played for a good while. The strength of a skill like Evasion should not be decided by new people with lack of practice/skill with their weapons and abilities.

A lot of people forget you need to switch up your tactics/abilities/classes based on what your enemy is doing to counter them.

Hunters can be pretty good Evasion counters. Grenade is usually only good versus Evasion Reavers when they are climbing up a building and you chuck the Grenade up on the roof to finish them off. Otherwise, I would say Explosive Shot is way better at taking out a Reaver using Evasion. Seeing as it's the default ability everyone starts with, it's probably a good to switch to this if Evasion is too strong against your team. Grenade is def my favorite Hunter secondary ability, and most of the time it is flat out better, but versus a Reaver that comes in and pounces/leaps/kicks one of your teammates then casual walks away with Evasion on it usually is not.

Alchemists are pretty good at stopping Evasion as well. Light Bomb is amazing at it, and her Cannons aren't bad either especially for a normal weapon. Their secondaries aren't that great, but can potentially finish the job off with Flamewall/Flamethrower if they popped Evasion close by you and thought they could just stroll right out of the area, or you can throw a Poison Cloud for at least some minor damage (I like to put them on the rooftops they are climbing to, so they have to jump down the other side and by then the 4 seconds are up and they are vulnerable).

Scouts aren't that good at stopping Evasion, probably not a good idea to stack a bunch of them to combat Evasion if it's a problem for your team. Stormbow is iffy, but can work sometimes. Volley is really your best bet, usually for covering rooftops that Reavers may escape to. Trap can be descent as well with some prediction. Turret's not so good though.

Prophets pretty much sucks versus Evasion tactics, and really should be avoided at all costs if Evasion is an issue for your team. Although a well timed Disabling Curse can prevent the Reaver from even using Evasion to begin with, which makes them an easy kill. So I guess they can potentially be very good Evasion-counters in the right hands (a new player will probably never pull this off correctly though).


Oh, and that bit about Choking Haze... Strong skill, yes, it is the vampires only area denial abilities basically. Very important for their success. Overpowered? Not at all. You yourself even said you're not as accurate at a distance with them, which probably means new/low-level players are terrible at a distance. All the nerf really did was hurt the majority of players at mid-level that did know how to throw them well. The distance was very important, even though you may not have used it that way, as now people can sit in the far corner where you won't be able to hit them unless you expose yourself and get shredded (versus descent players/teams anyway).

WTF with this condescending stuff.

I'm not even 30 and I rekt you multiple times, outplayed you when I was on your team and won VS your team. You're nothing to write hom about so stumble down that piedestal plz. I use Evasion all the time and never gets hit by 'experienced players' like you. There's just no downside to that skill. The only reason a Reaver dies while having used Evasion is a mistake on his part. Same can be said about Ignore pain, it buys you time to get out of trouble, but Evasion is Ignore pain on steroids.

Ohh well, hmmmk, let me break it down for you. Grenade ? I never get hit by a standard grenade unless I run in a straight line or the hunter is lucky. Sticky grenade ? won't hit me if I'm evading, so same as standard grenade. Explosive shot ? Okay good counter there but like light bomb, low damage. Light bomb ? Thats my biggest threat, but deals a whopping 350 dmg. Alchemist ammos ? Won't hit me and I don't run in a straight line, so the alchemist is lucky to deal 100 dmg to me. Flamethrower ? Do you really think I'm staying in front of an alchemist when I pop Evasion ? Nope I'm not a noob, so stop it. Give me a 'decent, experienced player' answer, if you pretend to be one. Basically, there's no real counter to it, ohh well, maybe the new Hex shot, but other than that, nope. If I'm being exploded by a 'nade when I pop Evasion it's not because the human is good, it's because I'm bad. I make a mistake and that's it, Reaver's dead, but a greatly played Reaver never dies, even against great players. I'll wait for a Tyrant or Sentinel to stun my ennemy or pull them of the ground out of sight of their group and pounce on him / throw a CH under my Tyrant's feet and group kill them.

With all due respect, rank has nothing to do with skill. And well, if you use CH as area denial strictly, you're fumbling the ball dude, you'd better be using smoke bomb. CH makes me get double, triple kills against people like YOU. And I'm NEVER EVER exposing myself to throw one, otherwise I'd be one of those bad reavers that die 10 times per game. FACT, I use CH ONLY if I can get a lot of damage out of it. This is a DoT skill. If you use it as area denial, you're bad.

Vampmaster
15th Jul 2014, 17:02
Damage reflect, secondary ability, for 2 secs, reflect 50% damage, to the human that dealt it. Would go along the new 2s Evasion ability. Deceiver takes 50% of the damage. Reflects EVERYTHING. Would be used as emergency when hearing a grenade nearby for example.

I like the reflect idea, but I think it should go to the Melchiahim clan (a planned class for the future). The Melchiahim were the weakest of the clans in some ways, but if they had abilities like that, it would be like they're easy to kill, but you do so at your own risk because they might take you with them.

The idea of an enemy that you don't want to attack for fear of the repercussions just seems really intriguing.

Sanguise23
15th Jul 2014, 17:50
WTF with this condescending stuff.

I'm not even 30 and I rekt you multiple times, outplayed you when I was on your team and won VS your team. You're nothing to write hom about so stumble down that piedestal plz. I use Evasion all the time and never gets hit by 'experienced players' like you. There's just no downside to that skill. The only reason a Reaver dies while having used Evasion is a mistake on his part. Same can be said about Ignore pain, it buys you time to get out of trouble, but Evasion is Ignore pain on steroids.

Ohh well, hmmmk, let me break it down for you. Grenade ? I never get hit by a standard grenade unless I run in a straight line or the hunter is lucky. Sticky grenade ? won't hit me if I'm evading, so same as standard grenade. Explosive shot ? Okay good counter there but like light bomb, low damage. Light bomb ? Thats my biggest threat, but deals a whopping 350 dmg. Alchemist ammos ? Won't hit me and I don't run in a straight line, so the alchemist is lucky to deal 100 dmg to me. Flamethrower ? Do you really think I'm staying in front of an alchemist when I pop Evasion ? Nope I'm not a noob, so stop it. Give me a 'decent, experienced player' answer, if you pretend to be one. Basically, there's no real counter to it, ohh well, maybe the new Hex shot, but other than that, nope. If I'm being exploded by a 'nade when I pop Evasion it's not because the human is good, it's because I'm bad. I make a mistake and that's it, Reaver's dead, but a greatly played Reaver never dies, even against great players. I'll wait for a Tyrant or Sentinel to stun my ennemy or pull them of the ground out of sight of their group and pounce on him / throw a CH under my Tyrant's feet and group kill them.

With all due respect, rank has nothing to do with skill. And well, if you use CH as area denial strictly, you're fumbling the ball dude, you'd better be using smoke bomb. CH makes me get double, triple kills against people like YOU. And I'm NEVER EVER exposing myself to throw one, otherwise I'd be one of those bad reavers that die 10 times per game. FACT, I use CH ONLY if I can get a lot of damage out of it. This is a DoT skill. If you use it as area denial, you're bad.
WOW i did see anything condescending....

Whoopdidoohah
15th Jul 2014, 18:06
WOW i did see anything condescending....
' The strength of a skill like Evasion should not be decided by new people with lack of practice/skill with their weapons and abilities. '

I'm not a new player although my forums account is new. And whoever might reply to me, this guy, one of the worst 40s I've seen in the game.

' So I guess they can potentially be very good Evasion-counters in the right hands (a new player will probably never pull this off correctly though).'

Who is he talking to ? To me ? He probably can't pull it himself anyways. He said it, the only skills able to truly damage an Evasion Reaver, are explosive shots, light bomb, and I said, Hex shot. The rest, MEH.

' You yourself even said you're not as accurate at a distance with them, which probably means new/low-level players are terrible at a distance.'

Nowhere did I say I wasn't able to use it from distance, I said I prefer to use it closer and wait for oportunity instead of throwing it randomly from max range, and FYI, I don't believe him he he tells me he was able to place a CH at the rigth place all the time from max range LOL. Don't gimme no BS. The nerf to range dosen't affect AT ALL the gameplay of good Reavers, and I consider myself above average and I actually carry my team to victory in a LOT of matches. I want Evasion changed so that the other vampires feel on par, because right now, Reaver is head and shoulders above. I post for the sake of balanced gameplay, not because I feel like having a powertrip and treating others like they're all lowbies / inexperienced players.

So sick and tired of bad 40s with lots of posts with their 'not gonna work against experienced teams' rhetoric. I wasn't gonna name names but this guy is just saying that same line again and again. But I guess he's right, I haven't played against experienced players if the players I play against are like him. Oh and FYI, my forum name isn't my in-game name. Apparently that went over his head.

MasterZtark
15th Jul 2014, 19:17
No one was saying you're a new player. -_- Don't take everything as a personal attack against you...

When saying a new player can/can't pull something off to stop a Reaver from using Evasion, this was about new players. Again, not you. For example you said you're not "noob" to pop Evasion right in front of an Alchemist and get flamethrowered (no one said YOU would), but a new player will do this, and that's exactly why Evasion is so powerful against new people. They hop into battle recklessly, pounce/leap/kick the nearest guy by themselves with the other three humans right there, then pop Evasion right after and run away while the enemy doesn't know what to do, how to aim well, or what classes/abilities to change to in order to better counter them next time. Like you said, this will NOT work.

About CH, did you even read my post? Nowhere did I say you weren't able to use it from distance, all I said to you was, "You yourself even said you're not as accurate at a distance with them" and that is true (exactly what you said earlier). Nowhere did I say I "was able to place a CH at the rigth place all the time from max range", in fact all I said was mid-level players "did know how to throw them well" and that does not imply in any way the right place all the time from max range. I even made it very clear early in my post, "No one never misses anything... but, most new players obviously miss their normal attacks and abilities far more often than people that have played for a good while". Again, not about you. Evasion/CH is considered too good to new players, and that's exactly what this discussion was all about; finding a way to balance Evasion/CH for new players but not ruining it for everyone else.

I very much disagree, and I know most people I have talked to do as well, that "The nerf to range dosen't affect AT ALL the gameplay of good Reavers". AT ALL? Really? It affects the entire game. Is it extremely game breaking and impossible to win as a vampire now? Of course not, but you really can't say it doesn't affect them at all.

For the record, I never said I was good. I never said you were bad either, or ever talked about your skill at all.

Shikei001
15th Jul 2014, 19:39
Wow, here is fun going on xD

Even if i'm going to be slaughtered by u guys :D
Me and my friend had an different idea for Evasion, because it seem that the suggetion about the range for it were to drastic for some.

Maybe just enhance the counter abilitys for Evasion...

For example some Reavers are feeding during Evasion and a Hunter without explosiv shot can do nothing but stand next to him, so it would be nice to Melee or Whip him.

I thought about Bola and Hex too, but that would be a bit to much maybe... (?)

Whoopdidoohah
15th Jul 2014, 20:02
No one was saying you're a new player. -_- Don't take everything as a personal attack against you...

When saying a new player can/can't pull something off to stop a Reaver from using Evasion, this was about new players. Again, not you. For example you said you're not "noob" to pop Evasion right in front of an Alchemist and get flamethrowered (no one said YOU would), but a new player will do this, and that's exactly why Evasion is so powerful against new people. They hop into battle recklessly, pounce/leap/kick the nearest guy by themselves with the other three humans right there, then pop Evasion right after and run away while the enemy doesn't know what to do, how to aim well, or what classes/abilities to change to in order to better counter them next time. Like you said, this will NOT work.

About CH, did you even read my post? Nowhere did I say you weren't able to use it from distance, all I said to you was, "You yourself even said you're not as accurate at a distance with them" and that is true (exactly what you said earlier). Nowhere did I say I "was able to place a CH at the rigth place all the time from max range", in fact all I said was mid-level players "did know how to throw them well" and that does not imply in any way the right place all the time from max range. I even made it very clear early in my post, "No one never misses anything... but, most new players obviously miss their normal attacks and abilities far more often than people that have played for a good while". Again, not about you. Evasion/CH is considered too good to new players, and that's exactly what this discussion was all about; finding a way to balance Evasion/CH for new players but not ruining it for everyone else.

I very much disagree, and I know most people I have talked to do as well, that "The nerf to range dosen't affect AT ALL the gameplay of good Reavers". AT ALL? Really? It affects the entire game. Is it extremely game breaking and impossible to win as a vampire now? Of course not, but you really can't say it doesn't affect them at all.

For the record, I never said I was good. I never said you were bad either, or ever talked about your skill at all.

Fair enough. But could you and some others please point me out WHO are those experienced teams of players you are talking about ? Because when I play against or with a few r40s, or like it happened lately, teams of people all with lvl 25+, I tend to think those are experienced players, and I'd beg my experience to differ. Nothing that works against lowbies stops working against higher ranked players. Reavers just don't die easy. Sure as you said, players react more wisely and faster, but the outcome is usually the same, a Reaver on top for Vamps and Humans can be any of the classes. I've seen the odd Sentinel / Deceiver racking up a lot of kills a few deaths, but few and far between Reaver dominance.


Clearly you're the one being condescending.

I was clearly butthurt but now that the pressure is down, we can go back on topic.

MasterZtark
15th Jul 2014, 20:04
Wow, here is fun going on xD

Even if i'm going to be slaughtered by u guys :D
Me and my friend had an different idea for Evasion, because it seem that the suggetion about the range for it were to drastic for some.

Maybe just enhance the counter abilitys for Evasion...

For example some Reavers are feeding during Evasion and a Hunter without explosiv shot can do nothing but stand next to him, so it would be nice to Melee or Whip him.

I thought about Bola and Hex too, but that would be a bit to much maybe... (?)

Yup, I really do wish you could melee them, and whip them as well to be honest. I kind of feel like Evasion should only dodge normal attacks, but not abilities (whip, bola, knives, life leech, etc. ). The only moves that compare to Evasion are the Tyrants Ignore Pain (you still take some damage unlike evasion, and can be hit by every attack/ability) and the Deceivers Phase/Shroud (you take full damage, and can be hit by every attack/ability, but you are semi-camouflaged and do small amount of damage). Not all attacks/abilities need to be equal though, some weaker classes can have more powerful moves to balance them out (Reavers aren't one of those).


Fair enough. But could you and some others please point me out WHO are those experienced teams of players you are talking about ? Because when I play against or with a few r40s, or like it happened lately, teams of people all with lvl 25+, I tend to think those are experienced players, and I'd beg my experience to differ. Nothing that works against lowbies stops working against higher ranked players. Reavers just don't die easy. Sure as you said, players react more wisely and faster, but the outcome is usually the same, a Reaver on top for Vamps and Humans can be any of the classes. I've seen the odd Sentinel / Deceiver racking up a lot of kills a few deaths, but few and far between Reaver dominance.

By experienced I meant not "noob" basically, anyone that has enough knowledge with the game to know the sound cues, the basic strategies the human and vampires use, the roles the classes play, etc. The average player pretty much. I am sorry for using a word that could mean anything you want, and I realize you did take it as these ultra-pro players (or just very good players).

Oh and of course I agree the Reaver is the man, I just wish the other classes would get the bump up instead of bumping him down. And by up, I really mean new abilities so they can perform different roles like the Reaver.

Whoopdidoohah
15th Jul 2014, 20:11
I'm pretty sure I've been Hex shotted while using Evasion yesterday, and that basically removed it, and got me shot dead. Needs retesting but I was like, 'oh snap, that's a counter'.

Zyrael
16th Jul 2014, 03:36
So Recoil was reduced from non-existent to actually being an aim assist?

pmaner
16th Jul 2014, 14:17
I see that an "elitist" group exist in every game. :( To bad. It's just a game. Grow up, and please don't ruin the game experience for the rest of us who won't stroke your "I'm better than you attitude".

Soap box off. Carry on now.

Shikei001
16th Jul 2014, 17:55
I'm pretty sure I've been Hex shotted while using Evasion yesterday, and that basically removed it, and got me shot dead. Needs retesting but I was like, 'oh snap, that's a counter'.
Really ? Because I tried it a few times (as Prophet) and never hitted... but still... I never saw the Hex going right trough the Reaver...
But I managed to hit jumping Tyrant's and flying Senti's.

Also, if Tyrant gets hit with Hex during his Ignore Pain it doesn't disable it, he just walks slower but still gets 80% less dmg.

TendrilSavant
17th Jul 2014, 00:38
So, after some experimenting and getting back in the game (I took a little over a month off), I see that Hunter with Whip and Grenade is the most popular Human build. If you're running this build I can see why someone might consider Reaver's Evasion fine as is. And that is a really skewed view in my opinion; that Hunter build might be too good in my opinion. Grenades damage output didn't change with the release of Whip; you have much more burst damage at your disposal than you did as a Hunter a month ago.

Fleet Footed is the perk that I've encountered most by far. It's not overpowered i think, but if your opponent doesn't know the melee+dodge "trick," it's a good choice. I used to shy away from this technique since I found it a bit "exploity" and didn't want to rely on it. Much more people are using it, maybe thanks to the dedicated streamers we have now and the knowledge is out there more. Anyway, this might be contributing to a disparity in player skill level.

PencileyePirate
17th Jul 2014, 04:48
So Recoil was reduced from non-existent to actually being an aim assist?

No ... recoil is still more than what it was 2 patches ago when there was 50% reduction on sights, and no aim-assist was added. Not sure where you got that idea?


So, after some experimenting and getting back in the game (I took a little over a month off), I see that Hunter with Whip and Grenade is the most popular Human build. If you're running this build I can see why someone might consider Reaver's Evasion fine as is.

Whip is actually a little frustrating lately, as it seems to be increasingly popular for teams to have 2-3 hunters chaining it.

I noticed it has a 10s CD and guarantees 250 damage plus stun ... arguably better than the Scout's knives, which have a 12s CD and can stun for 90 - 270 damage depending on how many connect. Given hunters' damage potential it doesn't make sense to me that they should have such a strong close range defense skill, and when using it myself I feel that it's a little too easy to 1v1 full-HP vampires. I think increased activation delay or slightly reduced damage would resolve this.

On the other hand: I think Evasion is and has been fine since the duration was reduced to 4s. Whip has nothing to do with Evasion, except encouraging its use, and shouldn't be particularly relevant to its balancing.

TendrilSavant
17th Jul 2014, 07:44
Given hunters' damage potential it doesn't make sense to me that they should have such a strong close range defense skill, and when using it myself I feel that it's a little too easy to 1v1 full-HP vampires.

Hunter has always had strong close range skills, Bolas are the best human abilities in my opinion. But they have trade-offs that balanced well, Whip's trade-offs seem a bit off in my opinion though.



On the other hand: I think Evasion is and has been fine since the duration was reduced to 4s.
Against good players sure, even at 5s Evasion wasn't a problem to experienced players. The problem that I'm addressing is Evasion's strength at lower levels. Stock Reaver has little to fear from stock Humans, mainly due to Evasion's versatility. And even at higher levels, Evasion is usually the best option for most of the time; you only need to switch to Shadowstep or Haste for certain situations in my opinion. To me this indicates that it has a low skill floor (easy for beginners) with a very high skill ceiling (still very useful for veterans), which makes it a outlier when compared to most skills in this game.

I've been playing since late Alpha, and can tell you that its never been a bad ability. While there's been various changes of other abilities, the biggest change Evasion has had was the removal of damage reduction from AOE's (which never made sense to begin with, but was there because humans damage output was so good then) and it's still a good ability.



Whip has nothing to do with Evasion, except encouraging its use, and shouldn't be particularly relevant to its balancing.
That wasn't the point I was trying to make. Whip+Grenade Hunter has too much burst damage at the moment. Claiming it a counter Reaver build is a bit of a misnomer; it's just a really good build that doesn't struggle fighting any vampire (hence the reason why I said you'd have a skewed view on Evasion is using that build).

Evasion is still really good against Scouts and Prophets, also Alchemist if you chose your tactics right. Hell, it's still good against stock Hunter.

Shikei001
17th Jul 2014, 23:08
In case someone cares xD
So I got Hexed a few times as Senti, and I only fell down if I was using Abduct, without I kept flying.. all glowing green :D

PencileyePirate
18th Jul 2014, 00:55
Hunter has always had strong close range skills, Bolas are the best human abilities in my opinion. But they have trade-offs that balanced well, Whip's trade-offs seem a bit off in my opinion though.

I agree that bolas are strong as well, but they don't have a movement stun. Whip does, hits more damage than poison bola, and can attack multiple vampires at once. I'm agreeing with you that Whip's balancing seems a little overpowered right now, or is that not what you meant?


Against good players sure, even at 5s Evasion wasn't a problem to experienced players. The problem that I'm addressing is Evasion's strength at lower levels. Stock Reaver has little to fear from stock Humans, mainly due to Evasion's versatility.

I agree 5s time was fine against good players, but it was definitely too strong at low levels. Evasion may seem overpowered during anyone's first few games, but everyone has to learn somehow. I don't think it's too strong once players figure out how it works, which is usually rather quickly.


And even at higher levels, Evasion is usually the best option for most of the time; you only need to switch to Shadowstep or Haste for certain situations in my opinion. To me this indicates that it has a low skill floor (easy for beginners) with a very high skill ceiling (still very useful for veterans), which makes it a outlier when compared to most skills in this game.

I don't really agree with any of this, except the part about its low skill floor. I don't feel the skill ceiling is particularly high, and it seems like Haste is used more among veterans. I've never viewed Evasion as an outlier.


I've been playing since late Alpha, and can tell you that its never been a bad ability.

I don't think it's a bad ability either, so we're in agreement there. I started first week of CB, and while it seemed a little overpowered as level 1, I was able to realize the mechanic for countering evasion before I was out of new recruit ... so I don't necessarily think it's too strong at low levels either.


Whip+Grenade Hunter has too much burst damage at the moment. Claiming it a counter Reaver build is a bit of a misnomer; it's just a really good build that doesn't struggle fighting any vampire (hence the reason why I said you'd have a skewed view on Evasion is using that build).

It seems I misunderstood your comment about a skewed view. I thought you were suggesting that Evasion was too effective except when used against Hunters. I agree the Whip givesa hunters a little too much capability for burst damage, at least in close range.

TendrilSavant
18th Jul 2014, 08:19
I'm agreeing with you that Whip's balancing seems a little overpowered right now, or is that not what you meant?

I'm not sure Whip is the problem, I'm under the impression that Whip has too much synergy with Grenade. Grenade's always been pretty good, but had little synergy with Bola. Bola usually puts a vampire on the defensive and on alert while Grenade does it's job best when the vampire isn't aware of it.



I agree 5s time was fine against good players, but it was definitely too strong at low levels. Evasion may seem overpowered during anyone's first few games, but everyone has to learn somehow. I don't think it's too strong once players figure out how it works, which is usually rather quickly.

To me the problem isn't that people can't learn to beat Evasion (or any other ability for that matter), but that most seem to be quitting before that. I feel as though player retention has gotten pretty bad. If certain abilities are too good at lower levels and may be the cause of people quitting, they should be changed in my opinion. The meta will change and high level players will adapt.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that if Evasion is tweaked Reavers will be perfectly balanced at lower levels. It's just one possible aspect that could be modified, and I'm giving my input on how it could be changed. Maybe the 1sec nerf was enough, just have to wait and see I guess.

RazielOfNosgoth
19th Jul 2014, 10:31
I just want to support the idea to increase the throw velocity on Choking Haze and Shadow Bomb, 25% decrease of anything is way too much. I strongly advocate a more moderate change of not 25% but 10% of the original velocity the Reaver throw had and go from there. http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/images/icons/icon2.png

As for Evasion, I have been using it since Alpha (~300h) most of the time and it does pretty much guarantee me a better K/D ratio compared to other options for that slot. But as most skills, it can be - and is - countered fairly successfully by more experienced players, regardless of their rank. If only the new players would bother to read through some of the Nosgoth Guides & Tactics (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/forumdisplay.php?f=118) or watch some streams and learn from there, there would be far less need to address these "harder to counter" abilities. http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/images/icons/icon3.png


- One things that DID carry over, though, is, if a player quits a lobby during the 10s Match Begin countdown, the match will start regardless, and the teams will be rebalanced before going in-game.

As others before me have already noticed, this doesn't seem to help much, if at all. The intention is clear, but the result is poor. We have even more matches starting at 4v3, 4v2 and such that most either don't join very soon (or at all, sometimes) or after seeing the disparity in the result when they do, they just leave the match, then others follow, some may join later on - or not... It's pretty much even more unbalanced than it was before this change to MM was applied. Not to mention it has absolutely no respect for parties made before the match started, mixing them all up and serving whatever is left to serve when the match starts. Most dissatisfying. http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/icons/icon4.gif

I am very invested in this game and I appreciate all the hard work the creators and the community are putting into making it better by the day, so thank you all for contributing to the best of your abilities. http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

TendrilSavant
19th Jul 2014, 21:09
I just want to support the idea to increase the throw velocity on Choking Haze and Shadow Bomb, 25% decrease of anything is way too much.
Just my opinion but I think the decrease was just fine, the throw velocity was previously to safe. It was too easy to launch from a completely concealed position.

The only places I see a problem with the velocity is in Sommerdam near the bridge and on Provence by the water fountain, which are the most open areas in the game. It requires a bit of tip toeing around sparse cover to get close enough to land a good bomb. Maybe adding a bit more cover would be better than reverting Reaver's bombs? I know the added cover on Valeholm helped with balance tremendously a while ago.

Also it's important to note that Airstrike is also very playable at the moment, giving more harassing options to the vampires. I actually like the difference between the abilities at the moment; Choking Haze being a close range Damage per second ability and Airstrike being a long distance burst damage/stagger ability.

PencileyePirate
20th Jul 2014, 00:29
Just my opinion but I think the decrease was just fine, the throw velocity was previously to safe. It was too easy to launch from a completely concealed position.

I agree grenades were previously too safe, but I now believe they're far too weak ... in particular they've lost vertical capabilities; I can no longer throw straight up onto a roof. Hell, I can't even throw them over the boarded wall in Valeholm.

SiD_Green
20th Jul 2014, 03:51
You don't think "far too weak" is a gross exaggeration? I can't see how anyone can say they aren't still quite useful, even if you think it was overnerfed.

PencileyePirate
20th Jul 2014, 06:12
You don't think "far too weak" is a gross exaggeration? I can't see how anyone can say they aren't still quite useful, even if you think it was overnerfed.

Let me clarify; I think the throw velocity is far too weak, not the skills overall.

malgaa
21st Jul 2014, 20:50
Since last patch:

-As human you shoot a vampire and get no damage for 2-3 shots in a row. Might happen just after the vampire was target of another human's ability?

Tekdrake
27th Sep 2014, 19:07
Tested this with a friend, I won't go into the details on that but basically many Lobbies apparently close and drop off the face of matchmaking when they hit 7 out of 8 players, leading to A LOT of trouble when it comes to something as simple as going in-game.

Very, very, very important! Please fix the issue fast!

GenFeelGood
27th Sep 2014, 19:14
They are suppose to obtain the 8th player as the match starts, this is an intentional mechanism that is meant to reduce the wait time on starting a match. From what I understand, it is meant to be an experimental trial.