PDA

View Full Version : By the Numbers



Telekill
12th Oct 2014, 14:47
Hey all,

I wasn't sure if anyone has done this yet but I went ahead and looked at the sales of Tomb Raider (2013) across the five platforms it's available on and did some number crunching. Sadly, I used VG Chartz as I don't know where else to look for the numbers but I found some numbers to back the percentage of the fanbase that is pissed about the Microsoft deal. Keep in mind that given my source these numbers may not be 100% accurate but they are more than likely really close.

First, the worldwide numbers sold as of Oct.12th, 2014, in millions of units:

PC - 0.27
360 - 1.72
X1 - .19
PS3 - 2.28
PS4 - .59

I don't think this includes digital sales which is probably why the PC number is so low.

Next the individual percentages of each system's sales from the total game sales of 5.05 million sold:

PC - 5.4%
360 - 33.6%
X1 - 4.2%
PS3 - 41.9%
PS4 - 14.9%

Next, the system camps put together; again, PC is probably a higher number if digital sales were included:

PC - 5.4%
Xbox - 37.8%
PlayStation - 56.8%

Yeah...

... Lastly, let's look at the percentage of potential fans or at least buyers excluded from buying Rise of the Tomb Raider on day one...

PC + PlayStation = 62.2%

A staggering percentage of the fanbase has been spit on by this deal. I have to wonder if Square or CD even bothered looking at the numbers.

Metalrocks
12th Oct 2014, 15:02
they must have looked at the numbers in their bank account which was generously given by M$. :whistle:

certainly interesting numbers. who knows how things will be when the rise comes out.

Lord Martok
12th Oct 2014, 19:48
Money is the root of all evil that makes the world go 'round Microshaft.

WinterSoldierLTE
12th Oct 2014, 23:04
I'm sure they did. Someone had to have seen that red flag go up at some point, which could be why it's a timed exclusive and not 100% exclusive. At the end of the day tho, video game companies are a business, and business is all about $. A necessary evil.

Murphdawg1
13th Oct 2014, 02:37
Hey all,

I wasn't sure if anyone has done this yet but I went ahead and looked at the sales of Tomb Raider (2013) across the five platforms it's available on and did some number crunching. Sadly, I used VG Chartz as I don't know where else to look for the numbers but I found some numbers to back the percentage of the fanbase that is pissed about the Microsoft deal. Keep in mind that given my source these numbers may not be 100% accurate but they are more than likely really close.

First, the worldwide numbers sold as of Oct.12th, 2014, in millions of units:

PC - 0.27
360 - 1.72
X1 - .19
PS3 - 2.28
PS4 - .59

I don't think this includes digital sales which is probably why the PC number is so low.

Next the individual percentages of each system's sales from the total game sales of 5.05 million sold:

PC - 5.4%
360 - 33.6%
X1 - 4.2%
PS3 - 41.9%
PS4 - 14.9%

Next, the system camps put together; again, PC is probably a higher number if digital sales were included:

PC - 5.4%
Xbox - 37.8%
PlayStation - 56.8%

Yeah...

... Lastly, let's look at the percentage of potential fans or at least buyers excluded from buying Rise of the Tomb Raider on day one...

PC + PlayStation = 62.2%

A staggering percentage of the fanbase has been spit on by this deal. I have to wonder if Square or CD even bothered looking at the numbers.

And the fact that many 360 owners have made the jump to PS4 and would probably rather buy ROTTR on PS4 instead of 360 and the % of Playstation customers left out on day 1 is probably even higher.

tombraided
13th Oct 2014, 04:13
Yeah, the numbers will be even more skewed since people are buying less and less games on PS3/360. Now we can expect PS4/X1 to be the big sellers. I'm not even sure supporting 360 will make any sense at end of 2015.

For action games, we can expect PS4 to sell 2 to 3 times more than X1 due to the makeup of the fans.

I hope RoTR will come out on PS4 & PC in early 2016.

TSUSMC9
13th Oct 2014, 04:22
Hey thanks for putting this together. I was going to do my own search as for the numbers in sales for the Reboot.
I am certainly curious as to what led to this decision, obviously besides the money, because it seems that they counting on all being forgotten knowing that everyone will get over the "betrayal" and buy ROTR as soon as it hits other platforms. Of course this is exactly what will happen but it still leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I just hope for the sake of future TR this isn't the route they choose to go again.

tombraided
13th Oct 2014, 04:43
360 & PS3 will fade in 2015, and PS4 has a 3:1 lead in Europe where Tomb Raider is most popular.

My prediction if RoTR wasn't an Xbox exclusive would probably be closer to this:

PS4 - 60%
X1 - 20%
PS3 - 10%
PC - 5%
360 - 5%

Ofcourse with special promotion on X1, it will do better on X1 now, but basically a majority of fans will be left out in holiday 2015.

Hope SE will make it up to us with a definitive edition on PC & PS4 later.

Tecstar70
13th Oct 2014, 09:50
Its difficult to view these figures as an indication for the future viability of RotTR, or in fact any game. There are many variables at play which means they can be problematic to use as a benchmark.

TR2013 was a much anticipated title and while the PS3 version sold more than X360 the numbers weren't poles apart. We are already seeing the start of the end of the last gen games (eg Forza Horizon 2 - no DLC, different game elements, Assassins Creed - different games for last-gen and new-gen), although I predict it will be a slow process. It is reasonable to predict that last-gen games sales will fall, however there are a lot of new PS3 and X360 owners out there enticed by the price cut, game bundles and the fact that the Wii and Wii U have dropped out as an option for a lot of people (one example being the unavailability of Lego games on those consoles). The last-gen games sales therefore are difficult to quantify in the next year.

The PS4 has been streets ahead of the Xbox One in terms of console sales. TR: DE was one of the first quality games to enter the next-gen marketplace and was likely a post-Christmas purchase for a lot of new new-gen console owners. This means a massive disparity when comparing future PS4 to XB1 sales because of the early adopter phase of the console life. The initial early adopter period is over and the market place is stabilising somewhat. There are more games out there that are defining each console. The casual buyer, who may not consider frame rates and resolution etc, will start to take an interest prompted by the games that are out there and the marketing of each company. Outages on PSN and problems like the current Drive Club debacle will balance out the sins of MS that are fading in public consciousness. Popular games like FIFA 15 and COD will overshadow the technical aspects of the consoles. Popular exclusives like Forza Horizon 2 that get critical acclaim will help to shift units too.

This Christmas will be an important one for both PS4 and Xbox One. Sales of both consoles will be massive this year. In the UK we are seeing dramatic pricing offers already. One example being this weekend where the PS4 was available for £289.99 (from £349.99) and the Xbox One at £309.99 including 1 game (from £349.99 without a game). MS are chipping away at the marketplace and the Xbox One is gaining ground, albeit little by little and IMO PS4 will lead for sometime to come.

I think that the console marketplace in 2015 will look very different from that of 2014. I would suggest that June/July would be a good time to predict the potential sales of RotTR. Its arrival in October/November is just when the Christmas market starts to hot up again after the summer period where traditionally sales dip. This is where MS will hope to gain more sales heading into Christmas by splashing RotTR all over the place and taking a view of the marketplace at this point will give a better indication of the impact of the MS/SE deal.

Telekill
13th Oct 2014, 13:42
@Tecstar70

I think you completely missed the point of the thread. I didn't post the numbers to discuss how the next game would sell on next gen systems or how it was a good deal for Microsoft and that it will push X1 systems. The numbers were posted to illustrate potentially how much of the fanbase is left in the dust with the deal.

However, had I been talking about another subject mentioned above your post would be very nicely done.

Tecstar70
13th Oct 2014, 14:59
@Tecstar70

I think you completely missed the point of the thread. I didn't post the numbers to discuss how the next game would sell on next gen systems or how it was a good deal for Microsoft and that it will push X1 systems. The numbers were posted to illustrate potentially how much of the fanbase is left in the dust with the deal.

However, had I been talking about another subject mentioned above your post would be very nicely done.

Thanks! :) Fair point, but as a proportion of the market place there is the possibility that there will be a smaller proportion "left in the dust" by the time release date comes around. To add to that, some people will own both consoles by that time as well. SE need RotTR to do well on the XB1 or it won't do well on the PS4 - the larger console customer base (currently).

Gemma_Darkmoon_
13th Oct 2014, 23:53
First, the worldwide numbers sold as of Oct.12th, 2014, in millions of units:

PC - 0.27
360 - 1.72
X1 - .19
PS3 - 2.28
PS4 - .59

With the PS3 and Xbox 360 numbers by the time the next TR after this one comes out there probably won't be previous gen ports. That mean the key numbers is that 3:1 ratio PS4 to X1 and 1.5:1 for PC. Even if Xbox resurges it can't see it catching up. Throw in the fact that the TR is very established around PS and PC as well with the classics and it tips it a little further.

If it was looking pretty even like PS3/X360 then it's daft to overlook the other side but when Xbox 1 is trailing it's an even worse call.


SE need RotTR to do well on the XB1 or it won't do well on the PS4 - the larger console customer base (currently).

If most of us hold out and the game sells more towards that 3:1 ratio then the bigger success for ROTTR will come later and that will be the crucial time for success or fail. It would a great thing for TR if PC and PS still get stronger showings to show CD they got it wrong.

WinterSoldierLTE
14th Oct 2014, 00:37
If most of us hold out and the game sells more towards that 3:1 ratio then the bigger success for ROTTR will come later and that will be the crucial time for success or fail.

Agreed. This game WILL sell on Xbone, and will probably be viewed as a success to Microsoft. But yeah, the real test of the success will be when the deal is up, and it's available everywhere else. There will be people who buy it, despite the disrespect handed down by CD/Square, but the question is how many? I honestly think this game is going to be one of, if not perhaps THE, biggest turning points in the TR series. It's already going to be known as "The Slap Herd 'Round The World" in the TR history.

And who's to say the wait will go unrewarded? Remember when 'RE:4' came to PS2 after having been GameCube exclusive for awhile and it had extra missions and new weapons as a compensation for PS2 owners?

hipeople5100
14th Oct 2014, 01:42
This game is going to sell but, crying about it doesn't make things better you know but, didn't this happen like 5 times with the other tomb raiders like unfinished business, golden mask, and lost artifact back in the day. Where those games were only exclusive to pc?

yamatai_veteran
14th Oct 2014, 12:55
Agreed. This game WILL sell on Xbone, and will probably be viewed as a success to Microsoft. But yeah, the real test of the success will be when the deal is up, and it's available everywhere else. There will be people who buy it, despite the disrespect handed down by CD/Square, but the question is how many? I honestly think this game is going to be one of, if not perhaps THE, biggest turning points in the TR series. It's already going to be known as "The Slap Herd 'Round The World" in the TR history.

And who's to say the wait will go unrewarded? Remember when 'RE:4' came to PS2 after having been GameCube exclusive for awhile and it had extra missions and new weapons as a compensation for PS2 owners?

The number that could be the crucial one is the percentage of gamers and TR fans who are unhappy and have lost faith.


This game is going to sell but, crying about it doesn't make things better you know but, didn't this happen like 5 times with the other tomb raiders like unfinished business, golden mask, and lost artifact back in the day. Where those games were only exclusive to pc?

I always hoped Golden mask and Lost Artefact would come out in digital downloads on PS3 and Xbox as I think many who already have the gams would buy them again for that. They were only DLC though not main game and perhaps not quite as strong as the included levels.

Crying about it may not have much effect but CD/SE need to know how much against this everyone is so maybe 18 months away they have the perception of just how jinxed that money that will be on offer then actually is.

Lord Martok
14th Oct 2014, 14:42
Yes, I loved it when RE4 came to PS2 with the extra chotchky's and goodies ...especially the PRL-412 laser weapon. I recently got the HD rerelease on PS3 (I believe it released on 360 as well), and it played beautifully, and looked great.

(I really appreciated the fact that when RE4 came to PS2, it was against the wishes and whims of RE's creator, Shinji Mikami (I believe. Heck, I get all them Japanese developers mixed up anymore, LOL), who apparently had become a GameCube fanboy, and seemed to feel that RE4 could ONLY be executed on the GameCube.

And in addition to that, now we have the HD remakes of Resident Evil --also once a GameCube exclusive in Standard Definition back before HD's really started taking hold-- coming to all the major platforms in early 2015. FINALLY! It would seem that many of The RE games that were under the thumb of Nintendo finally got out from under them. Within the last couple of years, we saw the releases of The Darkside Chronicles and Umbrella Chronicles, both once Wii exclusives, come to the PS3....and I had a feeling that at least that would happen with PS3's Move controller. Now, after YEARS of waiting, the remake of RE leaves GameCube exclusivity, and comes to all the major consoles soon-ish, in HD remakes.) :)

Tecstar70
15th Oct 2014, 09:46
I have noticed that there are currently a number of Xbox One bundle deals available at varying price points. These include:
Fifa 15
White console with Sunset Overdrive
Destiny
Forza Horizon 2
Call of Duty : Advanced Warfare
Alien Mega Pack
Halo: Master Chief
GTA V
Minecraft
Minecraft & Alien:Isolation
Minecraft & Forza Horizon 2
Minecraft & Forza Horizon 2 & COD: Ghosts
The Evil Within & Shadow Of Mordor
Fifa 15 & Call of Duty : Advanced Warfare

Now its reported that there will be an Assassins Creed bundle too, containing AC4: Black Flag and AC:Unity.

There are some heavy-weight bundles at great price points. My perception (in the UK at least) is that there are a lot more varied bundles than with the PS4, and at lower prices. Now whether you think this is a great example of the desperation of MS or is clever marketing that gives the customer a choice of a good deal is up to you, but it doesn't change the fact that this will help to shift consoles this Christmas and beyond. I am not suggesting that it will outsell the PS4 but in 2015 there is likely to be a heck of a lot more XB1 owners than there were both this year and last year, meaning that as an AAA title RotTR will be finding its way into a lot of peoples stockings come Christmas 2015.

Telekill
15th Oct 2014, 14:03
Lots of people will get the game. It's just sad that 62% of the fanbase will be left in the cold.

Tecstar70
15th Oct 2014, 14:30
Lots of people will get the game. It's just sad that 62% of the fanbase will be left in the cold.

62% as of October 12th 2014. :D

Murphdawg1
15th Oct 2014, 20:13
62% as of October 12th 2014. :D

That really isn't going to change much, not to mention what Xbox owner is going to pick up Tomb Raider next year when they've got another COD and Halo 5 ? Most Tomb Raider fans are PC and Playstation gamers.

a_big_house
15th Oct 2014, 20:15
Most Tomb Raider fans are PC and Playstation gamers.

And with PS releasing that smexy white edition as a standalone console, who would choose an Xbone!? :D

DamianGraham
15th Oct 2014, 20:45
62% as of October 12th 2014. :D

Microsoft would do wel to bring you aboard. You sympathize far too much with the deal in my blunt opinion. I understand playing devils advocate, but I've noticed you make it a point to attempt and shoot down every opinion that expresses dislike towards Microsoft and the deal. Fans are upset, and I think 62% will stand in October 2015 as well... Unless they announce the deal was a joke, not everyone is going to rush out and buy an Xbox based on what I've read.

Tecstar70
16th Oct 2014, 10:04
Microsoft would do wel to bring you aboard. You sympathize far too much with the deal in my blunt opinion. I understand playing devils advocate, but I've noticed you make it a point to attempt and shoot down every opinion that expresses dislike towards Microsoft and the deal. Fans are upset, and I think 62% will stand in October 2015 as well... Unless they announce the deal was a joke, not everyone is going to rush out and buy an Xbox based on what I've read.

Maybe I am not as emotional about TR as some people. I love TR games and have played them since TR3 but at the end of the day its game, and I can play the other TR games if I like. I DO get why people are so passionate as I get just as passionate about other things too, but when logic is ignored I try to include it. I don't see it as sympathising with the deal rather posing a different viewpoint. When people say that it doesn't make sense and its a stupid strategy I try to point out why MS/SE think it DOES make sense.
Case in point the 62% figure quoted. You may be right - 62% MAY be the figure come fall 2015, but IMO that can't be transferred forward today because of the reasons I stated. Using 62% as an immovable figure is wrong. i was just pointing out that it is a reasonable figure to state at this point in time and that figure is likely to change because of the overall strategy of MS.

You are absolutely right that there are people who are not going to rush out and buy an XB1 because of the deal. You have to acknowledge that the people on this kind of forum AREN'T the main target for this kind of deal although there will be SOME hardcore gamers who do buy systems for exclusive games.

People with PS4 and PC have every right to be pissed off, but in some sense I am pointing out the positive aspects. While the deal may suck it is more unreasonable to think that it will NEVER come to PS4/PC or even that it's release will be delayed for too long after Christmas 2015. I believe that despite all the angst that is displayed by fans a lot of people WILL go out and buy it for PS4 and PC when it is released. On forums such as this you will see the acute views of people who genuinely won't buy it or will buy it second hand but my belief is that this will be a minority of the overall marketplace and therefore will not dramatically impact sales.

FWIW my choice to continue with MS, moving from the X360 to XB1, wasn't based on undying brand loyalty or MS fanboyism. I waited almost a year to go next-gen. I looked at what my friends were playing on, what games were expected, what I liked about the Xbox environment and what the PS4 was offering and despite the fact there was a lot of things I really liked about the PS4 (and some of the exclusive games) the XB1 ticked more boxes for me personally so it wasn't blindly following MS to next-gen (in fact at one point I nearly bought a PS4!).

That probably means that I talk about what I know, and not having a PS4 means that I don't feel able to talk about it in the same way but when it comes to the MS/SE deal I look at it from a business perspective - ie: what is trying to be achieved and is it likely to succeed. Companies make decisions for good reason. They may not always be the right decisions as MS@E3 2013 shows, but neither party wants this deal to fail and therefore they must have had a good reason to do it in the first place. If they piss off a large proportion of the fanbase but both XB1 and overall RotTR sales increase by the end of 2016 than the deal is going to be seen as a success by both parties. That is the truth and if that hurts anyone's sensibility then i'm sorry, but having a pop at me for pointing it out isn't going to change that. :) It doesn't make it right or invalidate anyone's feelings on the topic but that's the reality of the situation. I understand that I may not be able to calm peoples anger and seem unsympathetic, but there are enough people doing that already and my brain seems to flip to the other side of an argument. (I probably have a thing for supporting the underdog - maybe that's another (unconcious) reason I bought an XB1!!)

I hope I haven't upset anyone - that's not the intention of this post! :D

Tecstar70
16th Oct 2014, 10:14
Apologies for the double-post but the last one was rather longer than expected!


That really isn't going to change much, not to mention what Xbox owner is going to pick up Tomb Raider next year when they've got another COD and Halo 5 ?

Well I don't play COD or Halo and don't intend to buy either so that is a bit of a dramatic assumption to make about Xbox owners. I WILL however be picking up RotTR.



Most Tomb Raider fans are PC and Playstation gamers.

In actual fact according to the OP, most TR fans are PS and Xbox gamers. PC gamers are a tiny minority. To break that down a level, most TR fans are Xbox 360 and PS3. The new-gen marketplace is still in a state of flux so who can say where these numbers will be come autumn 2015?

Flintmelody
16th Oct 2014, 19:38
When people say that it doesn't make sense and its a stupid strategy I try to point out why MS/SE think it DOES make sense.

I would say that deal makes perfect sense to MS. To buy some control over what is probably the best rival to Uncharted. Paying money to stop PS and PC gamers getting to play the new game this Christmas to sell more consoles is a bit of a nasty thing to do. It's not like TR is a platform centred series like if you want Mario you know a Nintendo console is best. In fact if TR was that way then it has far more ties to both PS and PC than Xbox. Much as it makes sense for MS, the deal is the reason we are not happy so buying an xbox is like paying the school bully.


While the deal may suck it is more unreasonable to think that it will NEVER come to PS4/PC or even that it's release will be delayed for too long after Christmas 2015. I believe that despite all the angst that is displayed by fans a lot of people WILL go out and buy it for PS4 and PC when it is released.

I and most others will buy it when it comes to the other consoles. Why would I not? That doesn't change that that CD have treated those who support TR real awful. It's not just making the deal, it's about not telling us when the exclusivity is over, it's about being indirect with every phrase. In their statement they try to make DE and Lara Croft and the Temple of Osiris as though that's an equivalent consolation to ROTTR, don't give any straight answers in the Q and A thread here and then say they didn't intend to mislead with GamesCon. Their I love MS type language is saying we are going to treat you worse in future to the rest of us. Is like owning a supermarket, throwing food at any customer not wearing red and still expecting people to come and buy from you. I have to think the impact would have been far less if they had been upfront.


That is the truth and if that hurts anyone's sensibility then i'm sorry, but having a pop at me for pointing it out isn't going to change that. :) It doesn't make it right or invalidate anyone's feelings on the topic but that's the reality of the situation. I understand that I may not be able to calm peoples anger and seem unsympathetic, but there are enough people doing that already and my brain seems to flip to the other side of an argument. (I probably have a thing for supporting the underdog - maybe that's another (unconcious) reason I bought an XB1!!)

I hope I haven't upset anyone - that's not the intention of this post! :D

Surely MS can never be considered an underdog. I have bought PS consoles before there was Xbox and always liked them so I don't see any reason not to go PS4 at Christmas. I have been a huge TR fan since the 90's too and don't consider choosing a PS4 conflicts with that. If I did take the massive step of switching across there is still 2/3 of us not playing the game this Christmas so that isn't a win. I don't see this as a lost cause or something to give up on. Maybe CD will see our concerns, say no deal next time and re-focus on moving TR forward with all our consoles without prioritising one. Much as the finances are one thing anyone at a games developer wants their product and brand to be liked.

Tecstar70
17th Oct 2014, 09:31
I would say that deal makes perfect sense to MS. To buy some control over what is probably the best rival to Uncharted. Paying money to stop PS and PC gamers getting to play the new game this Christmas to sell more consoles is a bit of a nasty thing to do. It's not like TR is a platform centred series like if you want Mario you know a Nintendo console is best. In fact if TR was that way then it has far more ties to both PS and PC than Xbox. Much as it makes sense for MS, the deal is the reason we are not happy so buying an xbox is like paying the school bully.

erm..no-one will be playing the game THIS Christmas! :)
Why nasty? That implies malice. Are you saying that MS took the conscious decision to be spiteful? This is the point of view that I have trouble understanding. They didn't do the deal to make peoples life miserable. That may have been a result for some, but they made the deal to sell consoles not to spitefully attack people.



It's not just making the deal, it's about not telling us when the exclusivity is over, it's about being indirect with every phrase.......... don't give any straight answers in the Q and A thread here and then say they didn't intend to mislead with GamesCon. Their I love MS type language is saying we are going to treat you worse in future to the rest of us. Is like owning a supermarket, throwing food at any customer not wearing red and still expecting people to come and buy from you. I have to think the impact would have been far less if they had been upfront.

I don't understand why this is such a point of contention. You can't announce an exclusivity deal where money has changed hands and then undermine it. You as a consumer might not like it but that's how these things work. Can you explain why you expect any different? Supermarkets don't put tins on the shelf with a sign that says that if you come back tomorrow you could buy the same stuff for half the price do they?



Surely MS can never be considered an underdog.......Maybe CD will see our concerns, say no deal next time and re-focus on moving TR forward with all our consoles without prioritising one. Much as the finances are one thing anyone at a games developer wants their product and brand to be liked.

I think MS can be well and truly considered an underdog as far as new-gen console sales. I think the PS4 is out selling the XB1 3:1 IIRC. Overall in TR sales, maybe not according to the figures in the OP.

Unfortunately CD may not have much say in the matter as SE are the distributor and make the deals. As I have said, regardless of the concerns voiced if it's sales meet expectations from the deal there is a good possibility they will do it again.

Tihocan
17th Oct 2014, 12:32
I think MS can be well and truly considered an underdog as far as new-gen console sales.
On reputation as well...

Flintmelody
17th Oct 2014, 14:41
erm..no-one will be playing the game THIS Christmas! :)
Why nasty? That implies malice. Are you saying that MS took the conscious decision to be spiteful? This is the point of view that I have trouble understanding. They didn't do the deal to make peoples life miserable. That may have been a result for some, but they made the deal to sell consoles not to spitefully attack people.

Okay you got me on that. I meant that Christmas in the post not this one. It was late when I wrote it.

It is spiteful though to hold us ransom for the price of a console. You don't get to play the game when it comes out unless you pay us £300. That is why are they are giving CD money so they can get that leverage over us. As I said with the Mario example Nintendo consoles and Mario are always linked so yes Nintendo consoles are likely to get exclusives and first plays. This is very different to buying a big advantage in a series that has been multiplatform for over 15 years and if anything was mainly in the PS favour. The deal does make business sense to MS and I think CD deserve more of the blame for selling out because they didn't have to agree.


I don't understand why this is such a point of contention. You can't announce an exclusivity deal where money has changed hands and then undermine it.

You can respect your fanbase if you make a deal or not. If you have been planning this for a while how can you not have prepared your PR response better? Maybe it was not having Meagan about.



I think MS can be well and truly considered an underdog as far as new-gen console sales. I think the PS4 is out selling the XB1 3:1 IIRC. Overall in TR sales, maybe not according to the figures in the OP.

Unfortunately CD may not have much say in the matter as SE are the distributor and make the deals. As I have said, regardless of the concerns voiced if it's sales meet expectations from the deal there is a good possibility they will do it again.

MS own a massive proportion of the PC market with Windows. Is like saying a supermarket is an underdog in clothing. Sony have been doing well in consoles but not so much outside of that. If we consider tech in a wider frame then Sony are the underdog. There is a good possibility that it will happen again and that is why if us PS/PC gamers want a better TR future we have to battle CD/SE hard to get that. With luck maybe CD choose do right by the fans, feedback to SE and the exclusivity contract goes unsigned next time. If it ain't that good well at least we tried.

Tecstar70
17th Oct 2014, 16:54
Okay you got me on that. I meant that Christmas in the post not this one. It was late when I wrote it.
No probs. i guessed it was something like that! :D


It is spiteful though to hold us ransom for the price of a console. You don't get to play the game when it comes out unless you pay us £300. That is why are they are giving CD money so they can get that leverage over us.
Fair enough, you personally feel held to ransom and I can understand that. I don't believe that MS's motivation was spite.


The deal does make business sense to MS and I think CD deserve more of the blame for selling out because they didn't have to agree.
CD may not have had much say in it, more likely SE would be the main culprits.



You can respect your fanbase if you make a deal or not. If you have been planning this for a while how can you not have prepared your PR response better? Maybe it was not having Meagan about.
So taking into account my previous comments, what could have been in the PR response that would have made a positive difference?



MS own a massive proportion of the PC market with Windows. Is like saying a supermarket is an underdog in clothing. Sony have been doing well in consoles but not so much outside of that. If we consider tech in a wider frame then Sony are the underdog.
In this particular point being made PC gamers are a minority as far as TR2013 is concerned but yes the potential PC marketplace is far greater than the consoles.



There is a good possibility that it will happen again and that is why if us PS/PC gamers want a better TR future we have to battle CD/SE hard to get that. With luck maybe CD choose do right by the fans, feedback to SE and the exclusivity contract goes unsigned next time. If it ain't that good well at least we tried.

Not going to argue with that. The shoe could be on the other foot next time round and it could be Xbox owners having to wait.

Telekill
23rd Oct 2014, 18:15
@Tecstar70

I understand where you're coming from and I know that I agree with some of your points but we're never going to see eye to eye on this subject. You've stated you have an X1 meaning that this deal has no negative affect on you. Because of that, I have to wonder if you'd be so happy-go-lucky if you had bought a PS4 instead. My guess is that you wouldn't be.

Do I think that Microsoft made the deal to gut punch the fans of the TR series? No. They did it to sell more boxes and attack Sony in any fashion they could. I'm used to Microsoft throwing punches below the belt whenever possible.

Do I think that Crystal Dynamics had a say in the deal? No, but they are affiliate with Square so I no longer support them or even care what they think of their fanbase. The fact is, they had time to prepare better PR than that pile of crap they served us.

Do I think Square gives a crap about the fans? Absolutely not. TR wasn't their brain child, they bought the rights to it and demand a return for their investment. Square only cares about their wallets and will do whatever it takes to fatten it even if that means accepting shady deals and retardedly alienating more than half the fanbase of a series they now own. I think the deal will hurt the Tomb Raider series far more than Square execs realize but they won't blame their own stupidity... they'll cancel the series as it doesn't meet sales expectations with less than half the fanbase supporting it.

So in short:

Microsoft = Underhanded businessmen.
Crystal Dynamics = Puppets without control of their work that has crappy PR.
Square = Greedy retards.
The TR Fanbase = Screwed
The TR Series = A casualty of stupidity and system wars.

Lord Martok
24th Oct 2014, 01:12
So in short:

Microsoft = Underhanded businessmen.
Crystal Dynamics = Puppets without control of their work that has crappy PR.
Square = Greedy retards.
The TR Fanbase = Screwed
The TR Series = A casualty of stupidity and system wars.

THIS!!!!!!

Metalrocks
24th Oct 2014, 02:41
agree with the short version part.
SE already complaint about TR9 being a failure because it didnt meet their expectations. this deal just indicates how greedy they really are. damn, EA is harmless compared to SE now.

Tecstar70
24th Oct 2014, 09:40
@Tecstar70

I understand where you're coming from and I know that I agree with some of your points but we're never going to see eye to eye on this subject. You've stated you have an X1 meaning that this deal has no negative affect on you. Because of that, I have to wonder if you'd be so happy-go-lucky if you had bought a PS4 instead. My guess is that you wouldn't be.
Agreeing to disagree is sometimes the only way :)
Actually, honestly and truly if the position was reversed I would be a bit miffed that I had to wait an extra few months for the game because that is what I truly believe will happen. If it ended up not coming out on my platform I would be annoyed, you are right, but probably more mystified as to why not. If I didn't get RotTR but did get the following TR game on my platform would I buy it - yes, absolutely.


Do I think that Microsoft made the deal to gut punch the fans of the TR series? No. They did it to sell more boxes and attack Sony in any fashion they could. I'm used to Microsoft throwing punches below the belt whenever possible.
Spot on, that is the reality of it but "below the belt" implies they are not abiding by the rules. Yes its frustrating and annoying, but is there a rule that says they can't do this? It feels very unfair, certainly, so maybe i'm being too literal. (Bloody historians always try to break things down!)


Do I think that Crystal Dynamics had a say in the deal? No, but they are affiliate with Square so I no longer support them or even care what they think of their fanbase. The fact is, they had time to prepare better PR than that pile of crap they served us.
I do think this is unfair on CD who may not have had any choice in the matter. From what I can tell most game devs are passionate about their games and their work and usually want as many people to see it as possible. I don't know, but do they have a choice whether to affiliate or not with SE? Don't shoot the messenger just because you don't like what the message says. On the subject of messages, you didn't answer my question on this point: So taking into account my previous comments, what could have been in the PR response that would have made a positive difference? I fail to see what CD/SE/MS could have said that would have made this situation more comfortable for people.


Do I think Square gives a crap about the fans? Absolutely not. TR wasn't their brain child, they bought the rights to it and demand a return for their investment. Square only cares about their wallets and will do whatever it takes to fatten it even if that means accepting shady deals and retardedly alienating more than half the fanbase of a series they now own. I think the deal will hurt the Tomb Raider series far more than Square execs realize but they won't blame their own stupidity... they'll cancel the series as it doesn't meet sales expectations with less than half the fanbase supporting it.
Well I think I think SE care about the customer in terms of producing a product that people like and will buy as well as being successful and making money. Of course they want a return on their investment. ALL companies do. I would say it is CD who care about fans more as they are aware that they are looking after a beloved franchise and have exhibited such awareness on this forum. I find terms like "shady deals" funny. It implies some illict dealings when in fact it appears no more than a business agreement. Again the implication is that it's illegal. Maybe that's just me.

In terms of alienating half the fanbase, you are concluding that every PS4 and PC owner is alienated. Now technically that is true in terms of availability to buy the game but that does not mean when it does come out (and your "half the fanbase" point illustrates exactly why it will :) ) that they ALL will not buy the game. How much this deals hurts the franchise will not be seen for at least 2 years IMO.

If SE did cancel it, this could be Lara's "Chosen One" moment. Things have to get dark before they get light. Another company could pick up the remnants of CD and the TR franchise and do things differently. (I doubt this will happen, but never say never)



So in short:

Microsoft = Underhanded businessmen. Underhanded? Can't agree. Unpopular. Yes.

Crystal Dynamics = Puppets without control of their work that has crappy PR. Puppets, probably like a lot of software devs who are tied to a publisher. Nothing unusual here. Their PR will be guided by SE remember so any view of crappiness isn't necessarily going to be their fault. Again, what could their PR have done differently within the boundaries of the deal?

Square = Greedy retards. Greedy. Maybe. retards. Bit strong that. Don't really like that term aimed at anyone, whoever they are. Misguided maybe.

The TR Fanbase = Screwed Depends what you mean by screwed, but I'll take it you mean "not getting the game". Not necessarily screwed. Annoyed, disenfranchised, but most likely will just have to wait a few months. If you mean something different feel free to qualify what you mean.

The TR Series = A casualty of stupidity and system wars. This is really an prediction, because until December 2016 it will be impossible to tell how much of a casualty it is. If the game is crap, then if that is because of the MS deal then yes - a casualty (although I don't see why MS would want to stick their nose into how the game is made so if it is crap it WILL be CD to be held to account). If it doesn't sell on PC/PS4 when it is released then yes- a casualty. If it sells ****-loads on all platforms throughout 2016 - not a casualty, a success.

Lord Martok
24th Oct 2014, 12:16
Microsoft has always been underhanded when it comes to the video game business.

Before, if an exclusive was released on Xbox (original...and perhaps 360) that was a timed exclusive, they would somehow work out a rider in the negotiations that the other console versions could not have the same bells and whistles as the version released for M$ consoles.

Of course, their shenanigans with Xbox One prelaunch and their retraction thereafter to try and say: "We listened to you, the gamers!" is just sheer PR stunting. They ticked off and drove away more Xbox fans with that maneuver than just about anything they'd done in the past.

And M$ is not looking to try and help make TR a "better game experience". They're just desperate to sell their flailing system to a larger base.

Tecstar70
24th Oct 2014, 13:48
Microsoft has always been underhanded when it comes to the video game business.

Before, if an exclusive was released on Xbox (original...and perhaps 360) that was a timed exclusive, they would somehow work out a rider in the negotiations that the other console versions could not have the same bells and whistles as the version released for M$ consoles.
Why is this not a business strategy that makes sense? Isn't creating a compelling reason for someone to choose your product over someone elses what all companies try to do? It might not be good for the consumer who favours the other product but why is it underhand?


Of course, their shenanigans with Xbox One prelaunch and their retraction thereafter to try and say: "We listened to you, the gamers!" is just sheer PR stunting. They ticked off and drove away more Xbox fans with that maneuver than just about anything they'd done in the past.
Totally agree. They really messed up.


And M$ is not looking to try and help make TR a "better game experience". They're just desperate to sell their flailing system to a larger base.

I don't know what they mean by a "better game experience". I suppose time will tell, but yes they are desperate to sell their system.

Interestingly enough within the gaming community I am a member of the PS4/Xbox One choice has been discussed recently. Now I am not suggesting that it can reflect the whole gaming community but as a snap shot of a group of people it is interesting. The majority started off with the PS4 but many have sold or are selling them to get an Xbox One. Those with PS4's are very disappointed with the several aspects of the PS4 and are impressed with the updates to the XB1 so far. Many have commented how it has matured as a platform and that online gaming is a much better experience. Without sounding corny, there is love out there for the XB1.

Another finger in the air - a quick search on used consoles on ebay.co.uk which shows 116 used XB1's for sale and 220 used PS4's for sale. I am not suggesting that this is evidence that the XB1 is overtaking the PS4 by any means, but it indicates that the used market (in the UK at least) is equally buoyant for both consoles.

Lord Martok
24th Oct 2014, 19:02
Oh, I know there are plenty of folks going over to the dark side as it were. ...lol.
I just hope their choice doesn't bite them bite them on the rear when and if M$ decides they finally have a large enough user base to reinstate those policies that angered so many gamers in the first place. :)

As a system, I have no doubt the Xbox One is a good one...except for that whole "900p/30fps" bit for most games. I was fully ready to get an XB1 until M$'s deal breaking stunts. But I can't even look at one because of the potential of M$ screwing the pooch (and gamers) again.

In the gruff words of Admiral Ackbar: "It's a trap! " :)

(point of fairness to Xbone)
I should not really dis 900p. I mean, I have the PSTV, and even though it can run at a max resolution of 1080i, for PS4 remote play it is best to run it on Automatic, to which it defaults to 720p when running PS4 remotely. (Any higher seems to frack with bandwidth, even if you are in a wired connection.) But, if at 720p, PS4 remotely played games on PSTV look gorgeous, then 900p must be really good looking for Xbone. :)

Mick2412
25th Oct 2014, 11:17
I just hope their choice doesn't bite them bite them on the rear when and if M$ decides they finally have a large enough user base to reinstate those policies that angered so many gamers in the first place. :)

M$ set forward a really poor vision of the future of gaming and whilst they retreated it has shown the direction they want things to go in. After they start playing tricks with the great TR brand then I won't buy their console


Another finger in the air - a quick search on used consoles on ebay.co.uk which shows 116 used XB1's for sale and 220 used PS4's for sale. I am not suggesting that this is evidence that the XB1 is overtaking the PS4 by any means, but it indicates that the used market (in the UK at least) is equally buoyant for both consoles.

If there are 3:1 PS4 to Xbox out there and 2:1 on Ebay. Then that means a greater proportion of people who are buying Xboxes are selling them again. It's not a indication of a PS4 to Xbox shift.

Tecstar70
25th Oct 2014, 11:30
(point of fairness to Xbone)
I should not really dis 900p. I mean, I have the PSTV, and even though it can run at a max resolution of 1080i, for PS4 remote play it is best to run it on Automatic, to which it defaults to 720p when running PS4 remotely. (Any higher seems to frack with bandwidth, even if you are in a wired connection.) But, if at 720p, PS4 remotely played games on PSTV look gorgeous, then 900p must be really good looking for Xbone. :)

Interesting. I do think that the 900p/1080p is not as important. I would like to see 1080 on the XB1 of course. That's was one of the reasons I nearly bought a PS4 but as long as the games are good and the experience is entertaining then that comes first for me. The games also do look gorgeous on the XB1 too, maybe just a little bit more gorgeous at 1080 on the PS4 but there isn't much in it in my view.

Tecstar70
25th Oct 2014, 11:39
M$ set forward a really poor vision of the future of gaming and whilst they retreated it has shown the direction they want things to go in. After they start playing tricks with the great TR brand then I won't buy their console
I believe if this had gone ahead and worked Sony would have been doing exactly the same. It could be argued that MS were too ahead of their time for their own good.



If there are 3:1 PS4 to Xbox out there and 2:1 on Ebay. Then that means a greater proportion of people who are buying Xboxes are selling them again.

Yes, that is true but that wasn't my point so I can ignore this! :D

Murphdawg1
26th Oct 2014, 16:22
Apologies for the double-post but the last one was rather longer than expected!



Well I don't play COD or Halo and don't intend to buy either so that is a bit of a dramatic assumption to make about Xbox owners. I WILL however be picking up RotTR.



In actual fact according to the OP, most TR fans are PS and Xbox gamers. PC gamers are a tiny minority. To break that down a level, most TR fans are Xbox 360 and PS3. The new-gen marketplace is still in a state of flux so who can say where these numbers will be come autumn 2015?

VGChartz only counts physical sales and most PC gamers probably buy their games digitally.

Tecstar70
26th Oct 2014, 16:41
VGChartz only counts physical sales and most PC gamers probably buy their games digitally.

That will make a difference to the numbers then. If the OP revises his figures I will re-evaluate my thoughts. :)

Murphdawg1
26th Oct 2014, 21:26
That will make a difference to the numbers then. If the OP revises his figures I will re-evaluate my thoughts. :)

Nobody knows the digital sales because it's not included in the total number of copies sold. I bought Tomb Raider digitally for PS3 and i'm pretty sure my purchase isn't included in the total sales figures.

Tecstar70
27th Oct 2014, 11:36
Nobody knows the digital sales because it's not included in the total number of copies sold. I bought Tomb Raider digitally for PS3 and i'm pretty sure my purchase isn't included in the total sales figures.

Kinda makes the whole point of the OP void then if we can't validate digital sales on any platform. :(

Telekill
27th Oct 2014, 15:12
Not really. I highly doubt that Xbox users bought Tomb Raider digitally a million times. To make the numbers sway magically in their favor. Look Tecstar, I realize that you are trying to sway everyone into, at the very least, not being as angry about the whole Microsoft deal and I appreciate that you use diplomatic verbiage, but as a fan, I'm pissed. I'll be pissed at least until I get a definitive answer on if this game is coming to PS4 or not. I won't accept fanbase hopes and dreams or speculation. The only way to get me not as angry is both time and the confirmation of a PS4 release.

Now, the damage is done as far as consumer confidence and my personal alienation and they lost a sale from me even if it comes to PS4. I'll be buying this game used if it becomes available for PS4 and that's on them. There is no changing my mind on that. I've calmed enough though that I'm willing to start buying the comics and other TR merch. Square needs to learn to not bite the hand that feeds.

Lord Martok
27th Oct 2014, 15:39
While I agree and sympathize with those who are royally pissed off-at the M$/SE deal, this is part of why I am no longer a fan of anything..... No fandom, no reason to get royally P.O.'d.

:)

Tecstar70
27th Oct 2014, 20:06
Not really. I highly doubt that Xbox users bought Tomb Raider digitally a million times. To make the numbers sway magically in their favor.
I wasn't necessarily suggesting that they would, but without digital sales you can't say that your figures reflect platform distribution, and therefore the point you are making cannot be made.


Look Tecstar, I realize that you are trying to sway everyone into, at the very least, not being as angry about the whole Microsoft deal and I appreciate that you use diplomatic verbiage, but as a fan, I'm pissed. I'll be pissed at least until I get a definitive answer on if this game is coming to PS4 or not. I won't accept fanbase hopes and dreams or speculation. The only way to get me not as angry is both time and the confirmation of a PS4 release.
Totally appreciate that, and you are correct. While I can't stop people being annoyed, I am trying to point out the logic of the situation and hopefully bring some rationality to the discussion. I hope to goodness that I am right, as I don't want to see the fanbase miss out, but I am 99.99% certain that time will prove me right.


Now, the damage is done as far as consumer confidence and my personal alienation and they lost a sale from me even if it comes to PS4. I'll be buying this game used if it becomes available for PS4 and that's on them. There is no changing my mind on that. I've calmed enough though that I'm willing to start buying the comics and other TR merch. Square needs to learn to not bite the hand that feeds.
That's fair enough. You know how you feel and it's up to you what you want to do. I just hope that I have been able to give a slightly brighter glimmer of hope for non-Xbox owners.