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Raider-Of-Tombs
14th Sep 2014, 11:50
Just replaying Tomb Raider for the 1000th time and there's something that's been bugging me. In the last sequence where Mathias is transferring Himikos soul into Sam, has no one ever thought that "gee it sure is taking a long time to transfer her soul"?
I'm not saying that Sam is going to be Himiko in the next game or even the villain but, given the time she is doing that process surely some of Himiko would remain with her? What does the soul just go back out when Lara destroys the body? I mean yes Lara destroyed Himikos soul, but would it be only the part that hasn't already attached to Sam. And saying that, Lara was in the middle of that for a bit so some of the soul gold have "passed through her".

Thoughts? :)

Valenka
14th Sep 2014, 12:20
I'm glad you said that because that was something I was thinking about for awhile. It was tediously long, Himiko's soul transfer, so I always thought that at the end of the game, it'd be like Michael Jackson's Thriller, and Sam would look at the camera and have like an evil grin or something. :lol:

I don't know, honestly. If Sam is even in the next game, there may or may not be a continuation of the situation. I know most of that is covered in the comics, but for the sake of spoilers, I shan't address the details.

Driber
14th Sep 2014, 12:35
Welcome to the forums, Raider-Of-Tombs :)

My take on it is that since we're dealing with a fictional story here, there is no such thing as "the soul transfer process is taking too long". It can take however long it needs to take within the fictional narrative. There is no "logic" when it comes to the supernatural, heh.

Similarly, if the narrative dictates that with the killing of the original body, the soul is completely wiped out, no matter where it currently resides or how much of it has been transferred, then that just makes fictional sense, if you know what I mean.

Metalrocks
14th Sep 2014, 12:41
welcome to the forum :wave:

what driber said.
but i sure asked my self as well how long it takes but well, its game logic. since you are busy fighting off a small army and just cant rush forwards, it sure gives the impression it takes ages. i even tried to take my time fighting, in case there might be a quick scene showing sam slowly dissolving or something like that, to indicate you are taking too much time. but nothing. so dont break you head to much about it.

Raider-Of-Tombs
14th Sep 2014, 12:45
Yeah I know I'm looking for logic where there is none and I know most things are just "because the script says so" but come on :p
I think we need to gather together and get a universally acceptable time for a soul transfer to be completed across all sorts of media. I'm thinking around that 5 minute mark :P

Driber
14th Sep 2014, 13:03
I completely disagree. 5 minutes makes no sense whatsoever. Himiko's soul has been dormant for hundreds years, and the rate of dissipation of soul particles is 32.304 per year. And taking into account the atmospheric pressure of 101.325 kPa at the height that Lara was on that mountain, and taking into account the third law of thermodynamics, the obvious conclusion is that the correct time would be 2 minutes and 36 seconds.

DUH.

Raider-Of-Tombs
14th Sep 2014, 13:16
I completely disagree. 5 minutes makes no sense whatsoever. Himiko's soul has been dormant for hundreds years, and the rate of dissipation of soul particles is 32.304 per year. And taking into account the atmospheric pressure rate of 101.325 kPa at the height that Lara was on that mountain, and taking into account the third law of thermodynamics, the obvious conclusion is that the correct time would be 2 minutes and 36 seconds.

DUH.
Well excuuuuuuse me princess :lol:
I will gladly agree on 2 minutes and 36 seconds. It gives my theory some more back bone :whistle:

Driber
14th Sep 2014, 13:19
lol, was that a reference to the 80'ies Zelda cartoon?

IvanaKC
14th Sep 2014, 13:26
Just replaying Tomb Raider for the 1000th time and there's something that's been bugging me. In the last sequence where Mathias is transferring Himikos soul into Sam, has no one ever thought that "gee it sure is taking a long time to transfer her soul"?
I'm not saying that Sam is going to be Himiko in the next game or even the villain but, given the time she is doing that process surely some of Himiko would remain with her? What does the soul just go back out when Lara destroys the body? I mean yes Lara destroyed Himikos soul, but would it be only the part that hasn't already attached to Sam. And saying that, Lara was in the middle of that for a bit so some of the soul gold have "passed through her".

Thoughts? :)


That would be a bit of cliche. Many things are going of for 'too long' in games because otherwise the whole fun would be taken away from us. I mean, we can't expect Lara to be on the top of the mountain in 2 minutes anyway.


As for the plot, recycling the story about Himiko wouldn't work and I think developers are not going to recycle it anyway. I, for one, don't want to deal with the same thing over and over again and I think that everyone remembers how fed up we got with Natla.



Yeah I know I'm looking for logic where there is none and I know most things are just "because the script says so" but come on :p
I think we need to gather together and get a universally acceptable time for a soul transfer to be completed across all sorts of media. I'm thinking around that 5 minute mark :P

If we are trying to find logic in this, let's just say that soul which has been dormant for many years needs some time to fully wake up. Just like me in the morning - you cannot expect me to have a conversation with you if I just got up. :p

Valenka
14th Sep 2014, 13:27
I completely disagree. 5 minutes makes no sense whatsoever. Himiko's soul has been dormant for hundreds years, and the rate of dissipation of soul particles is 32.304 per year. And taking into account the atmospheric pressure of 101.325 kPa at the height that Lara was on that mountain, and taking into account the third law of thermodynamics, the obvious conclusion is that the correct time would be 2 minutes and 36 seconds.

DUH.

http://media.giphy.com/media/VktKvRadFX4R2/giphy.gif

:lol:

IvanaKC
14th Sep 2014, 13:53
I completely disagree. 5 minutes makes no sense whatsoever. Himiko's soul has been dormant for hundreds years, and the rate of dissipation of soul particles is 32.304 per year. And taking into account the atmospheric pressure of 101.325 kPa at the height that Lara was on that mountain, and taking into account the third law of thermodynamics, the obvious conclusion is that the correct time would be 2 minutes and 36 seconds.

DUH.

One thing bothers me in your analysis. Since Lara was high up on the mountain in the area where it's snowing, it's impossible that there is a pressure of 101 325 Pa. That is a normal pressure at zero meters above the sea level and you know that the higher you go, the pressure gets lower. So, if Lara was on 1000 m above sea level, the pressure should be roughly around 89 to 91 kPa.

How long does it take now for the soul transfer? :rasp:
(I'd stick with 5 minutes because the pressure is not high enough to keep pushing the soul down.)

Driber
14th Sep 2014, 14:08
One thing bothers me in your analysis. Since Lara was high up on the mountain in the area where it's snowing, it's impossible that there is a pressure of 101 325 Pa. That is a normal pressure at zero meters above the sea level and you know that the higher you go, the pressure gets lower. So, if Lara was on 1000 m above sea level, the pressure should be roughly around 89 to 91 kPa.

How long does it take now for the soul transfer? :rasp:
(I'd stick with 5 minutes because the pressure is not high enough to keep pushing the soul down.)

True, but another thing we forgot to include in the equation is the magic wind that Himiko created on the island, which causes a positive pressure of several thousand Pa. This in the end nearly cancels out the negative atmospheric pressure at the altitude difference.

So instead of 2m36s I'll go with 2m41s.

Rai
14th Sep 2014, 14:10
I think this may be addressed in the novel, the 'overdose' that Lara is searching the cure for. Sam seems fine in the comics, except for a slight shortness in temper. This is story stuff that doesn't need to make it to the games, but still covers the 'what happened next' scenarios between main adventures (the games). The novel and the comics allow for story that would be surplus to the games, something that could bog down the main adventure story too much and won't directly effect the sequel. If this isn't the case, then something else otherworldly effects Sam in the novel as any normal drug (illegal or legal) would be treatable by doctors and Lara wouldn't need to track down a cure all artefact .

Although Sam did seem fine on the boat in the final cutscene. I wouldn't be surprised if she were mentally or physically effected by that soul transfer. But then, 'time' is a weird thing in fiction. Apparently it took Lara a whole day to hunt that deer and yet a large portion of the game also takes place in one day. We're not supposed to take real time into account.

IvanaKC
14th Sep 2014, 14:12
True, but another thing we forgot to include in the equation is the magic wind that Himiko created on the island, which causes a positive pressure of several thousand Pa. This in the end cancels out the negative atmospheric pressure at the altitude difference.

So instead of 2m36s I'll go with 2m41s.

:D


The wind would make it even lower. The lowest pressures are in the center of the hurricanes and storms. Which means, the lowest pressure would be right where Himiko and Sam are.

Five minutes it is. :rasp:

Metalrocks
14th Sep 2014, 14:22
I completely disagree. 5 minutes makes no sense whatsoever. Himiko's soul has been dormant for hundreds years, and the rate of dissipation of soul particles is 32.304 per year. And taking into account the atmospheric pressure of 101.325 kPa at the height that Lara was on that mountain, and taking into account the third law of thermodynamics, the obvious conclusion is that the correct time would be 2 minutes and 36 seconds.

DUH.

damn, you coulndt get any more scientific :nut::lol:
all this physic and math gives me a headache. :mad2:

motoleo
14th Sep 2014, 14:58
Just replaying Tomb Raider for the 1000th time and there's something that's been bugging me. In the last sequence where Mathias is transferring Himikos soul into Sam, has no one ever thought that "gee it sure is taking a long time to transfer her soul"?
I'm not saying that Sam is going to be Himiko in the next game or even the villain but, given the time she is doing that process surely some of Himiko would remain with her? What does the soul just go back out when Lara destroys the body? I mean yes Lara destroyed Himikos soul, but would it be only the part that hasn't already attached to Sam. And saying that, Lara was in the middle of that for a bit so some of the soul gold have "passed through her".

Thoughts? :)


Exactly! That process took like 30-40 minutes!!!

Lara did not fully save Sam! That is my belief!!!

Driber
14th Sep 2014, 18:21
The wind would make it even lower. The lowest pressures are in the center of the hurricanes and storms. Which means, the lowest pressure would be right where Himiko and Sam are.

Five minutes it is. :rasp:

Damn, you got me. Okay, I concede - 5 minutes it is.

Now, who will call Nature and Science with our findings to have them peer-reviewed? :D

IvanaKC
14th Sep 2014, 20:37
I think this may be addressed in the novel, the 'overdose' that Lara is searching the cure for. Sam seems fine in the comics, except for a slight shortness in temper. This is story stuff that doesn't need to make it to the games, but still covers the 'what happened next' scenarios between main adventures (the games). The novel and the comics allow for story that would be surplus to the games, something that could bog down the main adventure story too much and won't directly effect the sequel. If this isn't the case, then something else otherworldly effects Sam in the novel as any normal drug (illegal or legal) would be treatable by doctors and Lara wouldn't need to track down a cure all artefact .


This.


Damn, you got me. Okay, I concede - 5 minutes it is.

Now, who will call Nature and Science with our findings to have them peer-reviewed? :D


Since you started with analysis and research, of course it should be you. I'd address myself as a co-author and maybe we get a Nobel prize for physics. :whistle:

Lord Martok
14th Sep 2014, 21:33
Look....it's real simple:

Just keep Sam away from Ouija boards, and do not let drunken friends of the family up in her bedroom...and that should be that. If her head starts spinning, and she starts projectile vomiting pea soup, and spewing obscenities that would make the devil grin with pride, and hurling drunken family friends out of her bedroom window down a long flight of stairs to a street below.....well, then we'll know my advice went unheeded. :D

Tihocan
15th Sep 2014, 00:29
They should have done it like the stock anime approach, having things charge up for three episodes...

Then random faces of shock and awe, before releasing a world killing blast that seems to hurt nobody.

Metalrocks
15th Sep 2014, 00:52
Look....it's real simple:

Just keep Sam away from Ouija boards, and do not let drunken friends of the family up in her bedroom...and that should be that. If her head starts spinning, and she starts projectile vomiting pea soup, and spewing obscenities that would make the devil grin with pride, and hurling drunken family friends out of her bedroom window down a long flight of stairs to a street below.....well, then we'll know my advice went unheeded. :D

now thats a calculation i understand. lara would be the exorcist. jonah the assistant.

"THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU" .

awesome movie. :thumb:

Lord Martok
15th Sep 2014, 03:24
now thats a calculation i understand. lara would be the exorcist. jonah the assistant.

"THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU" .

awesome movie. :thumb:

My alltime favorite terror film. I saw it when I was 5 in '73..... And by saw it, I mean I was the stupid one for dragging my parents to see some movie that I had no idea just what I was getting myself into. When Regan growled in full possession for the first time, I did a swan dive under the dash (it was a drive in). I didn't come back up for quite a while, and when I did, Regan hurled pea soup at Father Karras. I got back under the dash, and did not reemerge until Regan was all back to normal.

It took me 17 years to conquer that movie. And when I finally did, no movie since then has ever even phased me. The Exorcist still gives me chills to this day, but I can also easily watch it 5 times in a row on a whim. In fact, I did so when I was putting this little film together.....
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pgIJTkeQTU4.

Hope it works.... :)

Metalrocks
15th Sep 2014, 04:30
My alltime favorite terror film. I saw it when I was 5 in '73..... And by saw it, I mean I was the stupid one for dragging my parents to see some movie that I had no idea just what I was getting myself into. When Regan growled in full possession for the first time, I did a swan dive under the dash (it was a drive in). I didn't come back up for quite a while, and when I did, Regan hurled pea soup at Father Karras. I got back under the dash, and did not reemerge until Regan was all back to normal.

It took me 17 years to conquer that movie. And when I finally did, no movie since then has ever even phased me. The Exorcist still gives me chills to this day, but I can also easily watch it 5 times in a row on a whim. In fact, I did so when I was putting this little film together.....
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pgIJTkeQTU4.

Hope it works.... :)

nice video.

i wasnt that young when i saw it. i wasnt even born yet at that time. my parents of course didnt allow me to watch it. they knew the movie only to well.
i think i was around 14 or 15 when i saw it finally on tv. i still remember my mother asked me if im ok. i was just laughing saying that im more than fine. really enjoyed the movie. of course i have it on dvd and still like watching it. i even showed ti my wife last year. she freaked out a bit. she never saw it before.

Lord Martok
15th Sep 2014, 07:12
Thanks, Metalrocks. Glad you liked it. :). (yeah, that was me doing all the voices :D )

You should hear some of the stories of reactions from filmgoers when the movie premiered back then. Nausea, hysteria, passing out, a strong desire to get the hell out of the theatre, etc. It was quite a movie, and still is.

The Exorcism of Emily Rose, nor even any of the Exorcist prequels or sequels hold a candle to the original, although Exorcist III (based on Legion, by William Peter Blatty) was pretty entertaining.

And if you ever want to see a cheap Italian knockoff of The Exorcist, check out a movie called "Beyond the Door". (In the actual movie, the title comes up as "The Devil Within Her".)

Driber
15th Sep 2014, 09:51
My alltime favorite terror film. I saw it when I was 5 in '73..... And by saw it, I mean I was the stupid one for dragging my parents to see some movie that I had no idea just what I was getting myself into. When Regan growled in full possession for the first time, I did a swan dive under the dash (it was a drive in). I didn't come back up for quite a while, and when I did, Regan hurled pea soup at Father Karras. I got back under the dash, and did not reemerge until Regan was all back to normal.

5 yo?! What were your parents thinking :eek:

What did you think of the second movie? That brain stuff freaked me out more than most of the gore in the first movie when I saw it for the first time, heh.

Lord Martok
15th Sep 2014, 13:58
Lol.....I don't think even they knew what I was getting into. (and my dad was no help whatsoever in the aftermath. I was too scared to go to sleep after seeing that movie, and he would pull some pretty scary pranks on me as I did try to go to sleep. :) )

The second movie had potential, but just missed the mark in so many areas. It was interesting that it kinda took a sci-fi approach in some of its story. Of course, seeing this movie (even if only on broadcast tv) was still scary enough for me at the time....and I think I was 11 or so. That face in the brain sequence scenes....still scary. When I saw it again on DVD many years later, I noticed there was some stuff missing from that presentation that I had remembered in the tv broadcast from years earlier.

An area where this movie missed the mark was the unintentional humor that tended to lighten the film's atmosphere. Although this was perfectly fine for me as a kid, in my adult years, I can see how this dropped the ball. Also, sadly to say, Linda Blair (hottie that she was becoming) was starting to show a severe lack in her acting abilities. (part of why she was starting to become regarded as a B-movie queen in not so later years. But from what I understand, she's been a guest star on a couple of police procedural dramas lately, and her acting chops had improved considerably.)

There's a ton of history around The Exorcist and its seuqels and prequels....far too much to discuss here without taking away from the OT (which I fear I've done already :) ). Suffice it to say, the history beyond the first film is rather troubled....but it still remains one of my favorite franchises. :)

There really wasn't a lot of gore in the first movie. It wasn't meant to be a graphically violent film....except maybe when you count one of the things Regan did to herself in her initial throes of possession. The third movie and onward is where the graphic violence started to plague the more sublime nature that should've been in them....that was a result of the suits seeming to think that graphic violence is what the latter films needed.

The third movie was called Exorcist III because that's what the suits wanted....when it was a totally different animal in the novel it was based on, called Legion. The suits wanted at least some kind of connection to the first film....thinking that the name Exorcist might sell the movie's concept even more. Exorcist III was not a bad movie by any stretch...it was far better than the second film. Also, George C. Scott played the role initally intended for him in the first film, Lieutenant Kinderman...a role that was ably performed by Lee J. Cobb at that time. :)

Metalrocks
15th Sep 2014, 14:35
there was a third movie :eek: ? i didnt know that. i only have part 1 and 2 they were together in one box. also for a good price as well. didnt like part 2 too much. nice idea but the execution was poor. only watched it once and never again.
is part 3 good or i dont miss anything?

yes, i have heard how people reacted to the movie back then. was mentioned in the making of and also saw some reports on youtube as well. even how it effected the actors (especially the girl) how people behaved around her.
but its still one of the best horror movies ever made and for todays standards, still creepy as hell.

Lord Martok
15th Sep 2014, 20:14
There were actually 5 Exorcist movies. :)

The Exorcist
Exorcist II: The Heretic
The Exorcist III
Exorcist: The Beginning
Dominion: The Prequel to the Exorcist

Now, the funny thing about the fourth and fifth movies are that they are both (basically) the same movie, with a few differences. One movie was actually unfinished, because the director was fired. The continuity of the film was finished, but a lot of post production wasn't. A new version of the script and film was made, and finished under a different director. Both movies are about a younger Father Lankester Merrin. Merrin was portrayed in both Exorcist and Exorcist II by Max Von Sydow. In the prequel movies, Merrin is played by Stellan Skarsgaard. (He was Natalie Portman's professor in the Thor and Avenger's movies, and Captain Tupelov in The Hunt for Red October).

Like I said, I enjoyed Exorcist III. It was far better than II. But your actual mileage may vary. :)

Metalrocks
16th Sep 2014, 02:10
There were actually 5 Exorcist movies. :)

The Exorcist
Exorcist II: The Heretic
The Exorcist III
Exorcist: The Beginning
Dominion: The Prequel to the Exorcist

Now, the funny thing about the fourth and fifth movies are that they are both (basically) the same movie, with a few differences. One movie was actually unfinished, because the director was fired. The continuity of the film was finished, but a lot of post production wasn't. A new version of the script and film was made, and finished under a different director. Both movies are about a younger Father Lankester Merrin. Merrin was portrayed in both Exorcist and Exorcist II by Max Von Sydow. In the prequel movies, Merrin is played by Stellan Skarsgaard. (He was Natalie Portman's professor in the Thor and Avenger's movies, and Captain Tupelov in The Hunt for Red October).

Like I said, I enjoyed Exorcist III. It was far better than II. But your actual mileage may vary. :)

yes, i have seen both prequels. the first one i even watched with my ex in the cinema. got it on dvd as well. actually like it. i got the other one as well but it was just bad. felt more...artificial?! just wasnt the same as the beginning. this creepy pale skinny guy floating around was just :rolleyes:

well, i sure will give part 3 a try. maybe this friday i can ask for it. i know they have the first movie.

Lord Martok
16th Sep 2014, 02:42
I hope you'll enjoy it. :)

Metalrocks
16th Sep 2014, 02:55
hope so too. part 2, as i mentioned, did not go so well. i just hope they have it.

Cristiavano
16th Sep 2014, 22:50
I'll just assume Sam died of some mysterious illness.

KittenFerocious
17th Sep 2014, 01:14
I think Sam is ok but it would be nice if they did that thing with Himikos soul.

Lara_Fan_84
19th Sep 2014, 18:53
Since the game is fantasy, there's no set time limit. It took as long as it needed to basically for you to fight the bad guys and get to her. My assumption was that since the ritual wasn't complete the transformation wasn't complete and since Himoko's soul was destroyed Sam's soul went back to where it should be and Himoko's soul just went to some kind of afterlife.

BridgetFisher
2nd Oct 2014, 12:52
Since the game is fantasy, there's no set time limit. It took as long as it needed to basically for you to fight the bad guys and get to her. My assumption was that since the ritual wasn't complete the transformation wasn't complete and since Himoko's soul was destroyed Sam's soul went back to where it should be and Himoko's soul just went to some kind of afterlife.

Having been made one with Himiko it would be interesting if there was some trace of the experience left giving Sam say super regenerative capabilites or something else useful as a gameplay mechanic. This way Sam could travel with Lara making her the ultimate coop buddy? Or maybe she could get her own spinoff series where she rises from the trauma and continues exploring the world only now with two guns and going after artifacts in a search for a past she can never find haunted by Himiko's memory? Sort of like what Lara Croft used to do before since she uses a bow now and doesnt raid tombs.

Flintmelody
6th Oct 2014, 18:08
It looked like it was setting up a boss fight against Himiko/Sam at the end. It looks like it was written to be that was then changed and perhaps that long time it took left in as an artefact of the change.

TSUSMC9
7th Nov 2014, 14:20
The comics are suppose to be a bridge between the Reboot and ROtTR, right? So if they are I assume that something would possibly make it's appearance in the comics, even if it was just a little hint. Which I can say that so far they haven't.