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Shralla
27th Aug 2014, 06:43
I thought this could be a fun thread to breathe some lighthearted life back into the forums. Basically list some things that maybe you aren't so proud of regarding your relationship with the Deus Ex series. It could have to do with the way you play, storyline decisions, whatever. I'll start:

I have never found Anna Navarre's full kill phrase. I don't even know where to find it. I think I usually come across the first part but not the second.

I've only fully completed Deus Ex about three times. Generally when I start a playthrough, I get sidetracked somewhere around Hong Kong or shortly after.

Franubis
27th Aug 2014, 08:18
I haven't completed the original Deus Ex (first part of the first China visit) or Deus Ex: Invisible War yet... but I have completed The Fall. Oh God I'm so ashamed.

Sotcitcio
27th Aug 2014, 09:26
Every time I play Deus Ex I read all the books again and again, it feels like I have to.

I kinda like Invisible War too:o

WildcatPhoenix
27th Aug 2014, 14:13
1. The only reason I ever discovered Deus Ex in the first place was because JC looked like Neo from The Matrix on the cover.
2. Like an idiot, I skipped the training mission on my first playthrough. Consequently, I didn't figure out that JC had a flashlight installed until the "escape from MJ12 labs/UNATCO HQ" level. I kept mumbling and complaining, "Man, this game sure is dark!"
3. I didn't know you could save Paul until about the fifth or sixth time I played the game.

CyberP
27th Aug 2014, 14:20
A long time ago I used to think aiming at boxes and such in DX1 gave me an accuracy bonus, so if an NSF was coming my way I'd aim at boxes or other deco first and watch the crosshairs tighten before he'd come round the corner. All that was actually happening from aiming at deco was the crosshairs being displayed, you get the accuracy bonus from standing still for a few seconds.

I make dumb mistakes all the time when modding the game, but thankfully I can go back and edit to perfection ;)

Ashpolt
27th Aug 2014, 14:31
-The first several times I tried to play Deus Ex, I didn't like it. Barely got past Liberty Island, got bored, gave up, restarted again months later, rinse, repeat. Then I picked it up once in my first year of university, and it suddenly "clicked" and I loved it. (Same thing happened with System Shock 2, though that "clicked" a lot later.)

-I basically always play the same way, which is silent assassin. I never play without the silenced pistol, and very, very rarely bother with heavy weapons.

-I've never modded Deus Ex, barring Deus Exe to get it running at higher resolutions / scale the UI accordingly.

CyberP
27th Aug 2014, 15:07
-The first several times I tried to play Deus Ex, I didn't like it. Barely got past Liberty Island, got bored, gave up, restarted again months later, rinse, repeat. Then I picked it up once in my first year of university, and it suddenly "clicked" and I loved it. (Same thing happened with System Shock 2, though that "clicked" a lot later.)


Same happened with me, but it only took a second try to click. System Shock 2 I fell in love with immediately because I was learned in gaming and the Immersive Sim by the time I got around to playing it and recognised it for what it was straight away.


-I basically always play the same way, which is silent assassin. I never play without the silenced pistol, and very, very rarely bother with heavy weapons.

I lean towards combat, but I've played stealth a few times as it was a requirement to mod the game.
Combat is great in that you get more variety. Weapons are far more moddable, and all stealth tools (Mini-xbow, gas nades and cloak especially) are still useful to a combat player, whereas a stealth player tends to shy away from loud shotguns, heavy weapons, combat defence tools (agressive defense system, ballistic vest etc). Stealth is certainly a more limiting playstyle, especially in the weapon modding department which has a fair amount of depth for combat and next to none for stealth.
But hey, both playstyles are great (unlike in DX:HR where the stealth is laughably broken) and it's certainly worth a combat player trying stealth for new challenges and dialogue.


-I've never modded Deus Ex, barring Deus Exe to get it running at higher resolutions / scale the UI accordingly.

Once you inevitably do you'll never look back. Start with HDTP and New Vision, there's no reason at all not to get these mods. The only problem is the HDTP character models but they can be disabled.
Just picture those two mods as free official updates, because they may as well be. They stay true to the original art style. Ion Storm would undoubtedly approve.

Jito463
27th Aug 2014, 17:20
I have never found Anna Navarre's full kill phrase. I don't even know where to find it. I think I usually come across the first part but not the second.

I've got you beat, I didn't even know Anna had a killphrase until about a year ago (when I decided to knock Manderley out and read his e-mail), since I always eliminated her on the plane. It made sense that she did, but I never looked for it because she was already dead.


I didn't know you could save Paul until about the fifth or sixth time I played the game.

Same here, though I probably replayed it more times than that before discovering it. I always slipped out the window. Quite frankly, that part bugs me about Deus Ex. In no way does it inform you that staying with Paul will allow him to live, and slipping out the window (which he tells you to do) will let him die. It seems a very nonsensical approach to the problem, especially given that Paul is basically invincible while fighting his way out (made even more amusing by the fact he told you moments ago he couldn't make the climb to the rooftop).

What are you doing to fix this flaw in an otherwise spectacular game, CyberP? :p

CyberP
27th Aug 2014, 19:01
Same here, though I probably replayed it more times than that before discovering it. I always slipped out the window. Quite frankly, that part bugs me about Deus Ex. In no way does it inform you that staying with Paul will allow him to live, and slipping out the window (which he tells you to do) will let him die. It seems a very nonsensical approach to the problem, especially given that Paul is basically invincible while fighting his way out (made even more amusing by the fact he told you moments ago he couldn't make the climb to the rooftop).

What are you doing to fix this flaw in an otherwise spectacular game, CyberP? :p

The only thing I did here was make Paul not fight if you stay behind, because as you said he seems to be in a lot of pain and says he cannot even climb out the window and down the fire escape. You clearly see him in a lot of pain also what with the moaning before UNATCO even shows up, so he is not lying. A nice consequential result of this change is you have to take on the whole squad by yourself if you want Paul to live. A nice challenge.

I do not believe the player has to be specifically told the outcome of your choice here. It should already be obvious enough before you make the choice anyway, that he will die. The guy said he is in a lot of pain and can't even climb out the window and down the fire escape :p

Someone made it a meme:

http://37.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me7jz5ZwMj1qhm8b3o1_500.png

That's a bit of an understatement though, there's about 20 UNATCO troops and 3 MIBs, all of which he kills vanilla if you stay behind with him and then just hide in his cupboard or something. Paul is set to be invincible in this period. It is certainly flawed scripting here.
I intend to improve it further by having Paul killable here too so you really need to protect him. I need to read into all the scripting...

Anyway, straying off-topic as usual...

Spyhopping
27th Aug 2014, 19:31
Ha! Great meme. How had I never thought of that? One confession would be that I never considered how ridiculous that was.

Another confession would be that for the first major playthrough of DX I had god mode on from the bit where you send the signal and the UNATCO troopers attack you until the end of the game. I was excited by the story but that part really intimidated me at the tender age of 11 and I wanted to stop playing. A whole building full of troopers! I think I had put it down for a few weeks. It was the first shooter I had played so I was pretty bad at it and I kept on dying.

AdrianShephard
27th Aug 2014, 19:41
-I spoiled for myself many parts of the game while watching brothers play DX. Before I first put my hands on DX, I knew that Anna is mortal on Lebedev's jet and you can save Paul. That still didn't take away the enjoyment of the story though.

-Nowadays, I almost always use the 'infinite inventory glitch'. Funny thing is I found it out by accident. I am a walking tank with flamethrower (for MJ12 troops close-range), GEP (bots/doors), and Plasma Gun (I never use it but I tell myself I will).

-I usually play the game the same way. Kill everyone silently with a sniper or darts to the head...unless I get bored then the flamethrower comes out.

-Whenever I replay the game, I go up until Paris then put the game down for months.

-I stay at the title screen whenever I open up the game just to hear the main theme play.

-Oh, and I teared up a bit when I heard the DX theme play at the end of HR.

WildcatPhoenix
27th Aug 2014, 20:20
-The first several times I tried to play Deus Ex, I didn't like it. Barely got past Liberty Island, got bored, gave up, restarted again months later, rinse, repeat. Then I picked it up once in my first year of university, and it suddenly "clicked" and I loved it. (Same thing happened with System Shock 2, though that "clicked" a lot later.)


Same here. My idiot 16 year-old brain couldn't figure out why I couldn't just run up the ramp and start blasting people right and left. "What? You have to stop moving to aim accurately?? LAME!" (again, I hadn't played the training mission, and I didn't even notice I had skill points to expend on the opening character creation screen).



-I basically always play the same way, which is silent assassin. I never play without the silenced pistol, and very, very rarely bother with heavy weapons.

Same here. One of the things I really like about CyberP's mod (FREE PROMOTION: ENGAGE!) is that it's forcing me to use different skills, pick different augmentations, and adopt entirely different playstyles from what I'm accustomed to in vanilla DX.



-I've never modded Deus Ex, barring Deus Exe to get it running at higher resolutions / scale the UI accordingly.

Oh man, you are seriously missing out. See below...



Once you inevitably do you'll never look back. Start with HDTP and New Vision, there's no reason at all not to get these mods. The only problem is the HDTP character models but they can be disabled.
Just picture those two mods as free official updates, because they may as well be. They stay true to the original art style. Ion Storm would undoubtedly approve.

I really can't recommend these two highly enough. As Cyber said, the character models on HDTP aren't my cup o' tea because they stray too far away from the original art style, but thankfully, you can turn them off if you want.

But the high-def textures and improved item models? Absolutely outstanding. I'll never play Deus Ex again without New Vision or HDTP enabled. They really do improve the experience that much.


The only thing I did here was make Paul not fight if you stay behind, because as you said he seems to be in a lot of pain and says he cannot even climb out the window and down the fire escape. You clearly see him in a lot of pain also what with the moaning before UNATCO even shows up, so he is not lying. A nice consequential result of this change is you have to take on the whole squad by yourself if you want Paul to live. A nice challenge.


And I think this works perfectly. Making Paul vulnerable would be a nice touch, but honestly it wouldn't make a huge difference since only the first wave of MIBs and a couple of UNATCO troopers enter the apartment itself, and in your mod he doesn't get up from the chair and go on a ridiculous rampage like he does in vanilla DX. The player will still have to fight his way past a bunch of UNATCO troopers (and manage to stay alive out on the streets instead of the back alleys) in order to save Paul.




-Nowadays, I almost always use the 'infinite inventory glitch'. Funny thing is I found it out by accident. I am a walking tank with flamethrower (for MJ12 troops close-range), GEP (bots/doors), and Plasma Gun (I never use it but I tell myself I will).

-I usually play the game the same way. Kill everyone silently with a sniper or darts to the head...unless I get bored then the flamethrower comes out.


Come to think of it, in the ~50x I've played through Deus Ex, I don't think I've ever used the flamethrower or the plasma rifle or gone higher than Trained in Heavy Weapons.

CyberP
27th Aug 2014, 20:25
Same here. One of the things I really like about CyberP's mod (FREE PROMOTION: ENGAGE!) is that it's forcing me to use different skills, pick different augmentations, and adopt entirely different playstyles from what I'm accustomed to in vanilla DX.

And this is simply because the systems are now far more balanced, not because I've molested the game and turned it into something it's not, right?



-Nowadays, I almost always use the 'infinite inventory glitch'. Funny thing is I found it out by accident. I am a walking tank with flamethrower (for MJ12 troops close-range), GEP (bots/doors), and Plasma Gun (I never use it but I tell myself I will).

-Whenever I replay the game, I go up until Paris then put the game down for months.


Oh, look, a noobish cheater and a quitter :p
I'm sorry, this is the confession box of the Relic's shrine, sins are purged and repented here!

WildcatPhoenix
27th Aug 2014, 20:32
And this is simply because the systems are now far more balanced, not because I've molested the game and turned it into something it's not, right?

Indeed. In retrospect, despite its status as a masterpiece, there are still so many parts of Deus Ex (vanilla) that work better in concept than in execution. I really do feel that GMDX does a fantastic job of improving the balance of certain gameplay mechanics, especially the augmentations (ex: swimming and aqualung are now completely viable and downright necessary in order to experience certain parts of the game, microfibral muscle is now equally as useful as combat strength, health regen doesn't completely destroy the difficulty curve anymore, and the player now has a choice between active or passive ballistic protection, at the cost of some effectiveness).

GMDX feels more like the game the designers intended than the wonderful but flawed product that hit the shelves in 2000.

--EDIT--
Extra confession to stay on-topic: on my first playthrough, I was so pissed at Majestic 12 that I made a point to destroy every single chair, couch, and/or other breakable item in their bases and labs in order to mess up their operations even further. That'll teach 'em!

CyberP
27th Aug 2014, 20:39
Now I must look myself in the mirror and ponder if it has been worth it: obsessively working on a 14 y/o game unpaid whilst people my age are either out partying or doing something arguably more productive...

http://colinfahey.com/deus_ex_mr_manderley_and_me/images/deus_ex_0035_statue_gunther_in_mirror.png

But eh, I learned more skills and did what I loved so no need to ponder.



--EDIT--
Extra confession to stay on-topic: on my first playthrough, I was so pissed at Majestic 12 that I made a point to destroy every single chair, couch, and/or other breakable item in their bases and labs in order to mess up their operations even further. That'll teach 'em!

Lol. Definitely worth it ;)


GMDX feels more like the game the designers intended than the wonderful but flawed product that hit the shelves in 2000.

Damn, I'm honoured. Can I quote this on my website? It is what I was going for in terms of design, just making it a little more uncompromising as well, though easy mode still exists so it shouldn't be much a problem for those averse to a challenge and DX wasn't ever exactly accessible anyway.

Random fact of the day, courtesy of Reddit: There exists such a thing called a "Book Scorpion", found worldwide they are tiny scorpions of sorts that sometimes live/are found in books.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscorpion

Many insects and other minuscule creatures, parasites especially, scare the **** out of me.

Wait, we're well off topic now. Sorry, I'll leave the thread.

Shralla
27th Aug 2014, 21:35
1. The only reason I ever discovered Deus Ex in the first place was because JC looked like Neo from The Matrix on the cover.

I hadn't seen The Matrix yet when I first saw Deus Ex in Computer Gaming World or whichever magazine it was, but him looking like a badass on the cover definitely sold me on the game as a middle school boy.


All that was actually happening from aiming at deco was the crosshairs being displayed, you get the accuracy bonus from standing still for a few seconds.

I knew how it worked, but I still do that just so I know what my crosshair is doing even when there aren't enemies around.


-I basically always play the same way, which is silent assassin. I never play without the silenced pistol, and very, very rarely bother with heavy weapons.

I play mostly the same way, but I use the traditional pistol because it does more damage than the silenced one, so it can dispatch heavier enemies faster. I also usually lug the gep gun around for bots that are in annoying places. I just started a new playthrough though, so maybe I'll change it up. We'll see!

This is a nice thread so far. I'm glad I had this idea.

CyberP
27th Aug 2014, 21:57
I knew how it worked, but I still do that just so I know what my crosshair is doing even when there aren't enemies around.

Yeah, me too, it's good to check your current accuracy.

AdrianShephard
27th Aug 2014, 22:38
Oh, look, a noobish cheater and a quitter :p
I'm sorry, this is the confession box of the Relic's shrine, sins are purged and repented here!

Hey, hey, hey, I've already beaten the vanilla DX multiple times on the hardest difficulty not glitching. Gotta keep the game fresh, and lighting everyone on fire is pretty fun (for a couple of minutes).


Now I must look myself in the mirror and ponder if it has been worth it: obsessively working on a 14 y/o game unpaid whilst people my age are either out partying or doing something arguably more productive...

Told you that you are an ugly son-of-*****.


Come to think of it, in the ~50x I've played through Deus Ex, I don't think I've ever used the flamethrower or the plasma rifle or gone higher than Trained in Heavy Weapons.

Heavy weapons skill is a waste IMO. But really, you've never used the flamethrower?

WildcatPhoenix
27th Aug 2014, 22:48
Heavy weapons skill is a waste IMO. But really, you've never used the flamethrower?

I mean, I've used it just to see how it functions. But I never carry it with me. Takes up too much space, I usually prefer something with more range if I'm going lethal (sniper rifle, modded assault rifle, modded pistol, etc), and guys running around on fire going "ahhh! ahhh! ahhh!" tend to draw too much attention.

I rarely use the shotguns either, especially once I pick up the DTS. You don't even need any melee skill for that thing to be extremely effective in close range.

CyberP
27th Aug 2014, 23:00
Told you that you are an ugly son-of-*****.


You'd be surprised. I was blessed with looks. Brains I had to earn :cool:
I need to work out some more though, I've gained a beer belly!

Sorry, more irrelevant crap for the thread but Adrian here keeps calling me the ugly duckling!

AdrianShephard
28th Aug 2014, 01:21
You'd be surprised. I was blessed with looks. Brains I had to earn :cool:

Arrogant too.

A complete package. :cool:

Also, don't know if this would be a confession but after playing DX so much, I have most of the script memorized up until about VersaLife labs.

Mousehunt
28th Aug 2014, 01:46
I worked out you could do stealth kills from behind with a knife in Deus Ex1. On my fifth playthrough.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of you guys here didn't know that either. Or maybe I'm just stupid. :p

CyberP
28th Aug 2014, 01:59
Arrogant too.

A complete package. :cool:
.

;)

AdrianShephard
28th Aug 2014, 02:24
I worked out you could do stealth kills from behind with a knife in Deus Ex1. On my fifth playthrough.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of you guys here didn't know that either. Or maybe I'm just stupid. :p

No....impossible.

Mousehunt
28th Aug 2014, 03:15
Let that sink in for a second.

nomotog
28th Aug 2014, 03:16
I never new Paul could die.

I used cheats on 9 out of 10 on my playthroughs.

I still haven't fished the PC version.

Mousehunt
28th Aug 2014, 04:45
I found things I've never even seen before on my fifth playthrough.

I always keep the zyme vials to sell to the drug dealer... :whistle: Don't tell anyone plz.

LeMoN_LiMe
28th Aug 2014, 05:17
I originally played the game on PS2. Hundreds of hours.

Got it years later for the laptop. Both versions are epic.

It took me a damn good amount of playthroughs to realize Paul could live.

Shralla
28th Aug 2014, 08:50
I just consciously noticed the email about the company picnic in the MJ12 labs in Hell's Kitchen. It is addressed from "Harleen Quinzell" and the signature at the bottom is "A frown is just a smile turned upside down..."

For those who might not know, the real name of the Batman character Harley Quinn is Harleen Quinzell.

besyuziki
28th Aug 2014, 09:04
-I've been very vocal about the auto health regen in Human Revolution, but in most of my DX1 runs I cheese the second half of the game with the level 4 regeneration aug. In my defense, you earn an overpowered aug in DX1. You have to upgrade it, toggle it manually, and manage its energy cost. In HR you have Sentinel from the get go, and it's automated.

-While I acknowledge everything wrong with Invisible War, I find myself enjoying it whenever I revisit it, and not just in a so bad it's good kind of way. Energy blade + strength + electrostatic discharge FTW. Besides, when I use melee weapons, I don't notice the universal ammo bull**** and how hopelessly broken it is. Nice feature there, Harvey. :thumbsup:

-I've barely bothered with the non-lethal and/or stealthy approaches in Human Revolution. Maybe I'll do a full run someday.

-To this day I've never played a single Deus Ex game on consoles. I did watch the pre-rendered opening and ending cutscenes of DX: The Conspiracy on YouTube, also some gameplay.

-Back in 2000, I bought a cheap copy of DX1 from the corner. Not because I was pure evil or a cheap bastard, it was simply the norm in my country at that time. Our local game companies imported a very poor selection of legal retail PC games and they were too expensive. Luckily things got significantly better in early 2000's. Now I have two legit retail copies of DX1 on my shelf, another copy on Steam, and another on GOG. I also gave away several Steam copies to others.

-Again back in 2000, I didn't understand a significant part of the plot and references. Both because of my bad English and my unfamiliarity with the issues dealt with, politics, conspiracies, etc. The game was a real eye opener of course, but admittedly, some of its magic was lost on me until much later.



-I've never modded Deus Ex, barring Deus Exe to get it running at higher resolutions / scale the UI accordingly.

Conversely, Shifter spoiled me and I can't play vanilla DX1 anymore. It showers the player with too much extra xp which kind of ruins the character development aspect (e.g. you don't have to pick between rifles and pistols, you can max both and still end up with tons of extra xp for "utility" skills), but the random extra loot, the bug fixes, and all those quality of life features are too good to ignore.



I always keep the zyme vials to sell to the drug dealer... :whistle: Don't tell anyone plz.

You're not the only one. :) I don't know why but collecting all vials and selling them in Paris is immensely satisfying. Not that credits matter much at that point.



-Oh, and I teared up a bit when I heard the DX theme play at the end of HR.

Didn't we all? It would be something worth confessing if you didn't tear up. :rasp:

FrankCSIS
29th Aug 2014, 00:37
-After my first playthrough, I've compulsively watched the intro cutscene and the Illuminati ending about 100 times each. Back then I'd load the game just to watch those two. We were, after all, still ions away from YouTube hosting.

-Still around 2000, I've also often loaded up the game just to hear the theme song and watch the title screen before going to bed. It soothed and calmed the angry or anxious teenager on more than one occasion! A leftover habit from bedtime stories, I s'pose!

-It never occurred to me to leave Paul behind. Although I had clicked and flirted with the game before, it's also the exact moment I truly fell in love with it! The game, via Paul, was pretty much ordering me to leave, but it just seemed like the wrong damn thing to do, and I stubbornly decided to stay, expecting to either glitch or stay in there for hours. But the damnable game just played along, sending in the MIBs. And I was in love!

-I was really anxious about confronting Walton Simons. Speaking with him in UNATCO gave me goosebumps, and once it became clear I'd have to face him at some point, I dreaded the encounter multiple levels before it actually happened. In contrast, I never once worried about Page! I also really like how we had a history, sometimes friendly, with some of the "bosses" in DX. I actually felt something when fighting Gunther or Anna. Don't know if I can say as much with any other game involving killing, really.

WildcatPhoenix
29th Aug 2014, 01:52
-I was really anxious about confronting Walton Simons. Speaking with him in UNATCO gave me goosebumps, and once it became clear I'd have to face him at some point, I dreaded the encounter multiple levels before it actually happened. In contrast, I never once worried about Page! I also really like how we had a history, sometimes friendly, with some of the "bosses" in DX. I actually felt something when fighting Gunther or Anna. Don't know if I can say as much with any other game involving killing, really.

This, in my opinion, was a huge part of what made the story in DX1 so memorable. The characterization was outstanding. I hated Anna, especially after what she did on the 747, and giving her some much-deserved comeuppance was immensely satisfying. On the other hand, I almost felt sorry for Gunther. Not that he wasn't equally bloodthirsty, but I had spent enough time reading e-mails from him and getting a clearer picture of what was going on inside that screwed up biomechanical brain of his to understand where he was coming from.

We've talked about it 1,000x at this point, but DXHR failed utterly in this regard. I felt absolutely nothing about Barrett or any of the other Tyrants. Not a thing. Hopefully DX4 will improve upon this.

CyberP
29th Aug 2014, 02:55
We've talked about it 1,000x at this point, but DXHR failed utterly in this regard. I felt absolutely nothing about Barrett or any of the other Tyrants. Not a thing. Hopefully DX4 will improve upon this.

People everywhere are really upset by this. I get it, DX did the character development so well, and didn't have silly cutscenes and handled it all in a simulated manner (except for the obvious issues of the tech at the time of course) and it certainly should have been something DX:HR strived for, but is the character development specifically really a requirement. They are meant to be dangerous tyrants that the moment you meet them they would fight you. Though this in mind, they still could have had character development by Pritchard digging up info on them, Jensen perhaps intercepting their communications at some point and more.
We do learn something about them beforehand, the intro and the eavesdropping at the FEMA facility, and I do remember an email or two, though those may have been after you fight them, I don't remember. But yes, there was little development at all. I'm still not sure I consider this a flaw though, more just a let down.

AdrianShephard
29th Aug 2014, 04:12
People everywhere are really upset by this. I get it, DX did the character development so well, and didn't have silly cutscenes and handled it all in a simulated manner (except for the obvious issues of the tech at the time of course) and it certainly should have been something DX:HR strived for, but is the character development specifically really a requirement. They are meant to be dangerous tyrants that the moment you meet them they would fight you. Though this in mind, they still could have had character development by Pritchard digging up info on them, Jensen perhaps intercepting their communications at some point and more.
We do learn something about them beforehand, the intro and the eavesdropping at the FEMA facility, and I do remember an email or two, though those may have been after you fight them, I don't remember. But yes, there was little development at all. I'm still not sure I consider this a flaw though, more just a let down.

It absolutely is a flaw. Not knowing background information (until the late stages, at which point it becomes useless) about who you are fighting detracts from the overall experience. There is no build up to the boss fights...you aren't even given a good reason why you are fighting the bosses at that place and time, it just happens that they appear out of nowhere while AJ was being an idiot. It's not like Anna who is about to execute an unnarmed prisoner, or Gunther who followed you across the globe to avenge Anna. They had real reasons to fight you...and those reasons gave you more information about them. Anna wanting to execute Lebedev gives you a first hand look at her ruthlessness, and Gunther's reaction to Anna's death shows the player he has a soft spot for her -- we are even told in Paris that he cried because of it. The Tyrants' reasoning? Well, apart from the word "BADDIE" scrawled on their foreheads after the prologue, we have the generic 'you are messing up my plans (which I won't fully explain) so you must die'. If only EM did something similar to Walton Simons where he is interesting precisely because of the lack of info on him, but I don't think that would fit in HR's narrative.

I wish it ended there. I won't even get into the character development of the other major characters.

CyberP
29th Aug 2014, 04:55
I wish it ended there. I won't even get into the character development of the other major characters.

Go on. I'm hoping for more insight from the minds of the writing enthusiasts here :)

Shralla
29th Aug 2014, 05:29
I never knew that there was an underwater entrance to the warehouse with the power generators in Hell's Kitchen.

68_pie
29th Aug 2014, 09:13
I've played IW more than either of the other two games.

AdrianShephard
29th Aug 2014, 15:43
Go on. I'm hoping for more insight from the minds of the writing enthusiasts here :)

This thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=153399). Post #18. I'll write more if you're interested. The OP obviously doesn't want this to go off topic.


I never knew that there was an underwater entrance to the warehouse with the power generators in Hell's Kitchen.

Huh. I didn't know that...oops. I usually go from the rooftops and probably only once through the basement entrance. Didn't even know there was water on the map (apart from the sewers).

EricaLeeV
29th Aug 2014, 15:46
Nice thread Shalla!


Go on. I'm hoping for more insight from the minds of the writing enthusiasts here :)

Personally, I would say the storytelling and character development was a major set back concerning DXHR. Maybe even the biggest problem I had with it. For me, a lot of DX's pull is it's narrative; going back to find out more information or see little foreshadow moments to later plot developments is a real treat.



- Even though I have played the original about four times since I first played it in 2011 I still go stealth all the time. The first time, out of resource management and desperate situations, I went around killing anyone I had a problem with but now I go non-lethal.

- Helios ending. Every. Single. Time.

- During my first run I was aware that Paul could live and spent around two hours trying various methods mentioned by folks online but for some reason, only losing during the Hotel fight ever got Paul to live for me.

- I paid good money to get a shiny new physical boxed copy of DX. It's completely unnecessary, but I love the look of it and the things inside. Anything for my favorite game (well not anything...). If they had good statues or merch I would buy it.



Question for any and all of you: Out of curiosity; when it comes to immersion in the original, does the player immersion get broken or disturbed in any way when the conversation cutscenes happen?

WildcatPhoenix
29th Aug 2014, 16:02
I've played IW more than either of the other two games.

Wait, more than DXHR and DX1?? Or are you counting The Fall?



- Helios ending. Every. Single. Time.


Personally, I never trusted Helios. He was created as a trap set by Page. Sure, he rejects Page and chooses JC, but there's still too much Icarus in him for my taste.

My original playthrough, which in my head constitutes my personal "canon," I went with the Illuminati ending. JC then killed Everett later on.

Tong's ending is easily the worst, though. So dumb.



- I paid good money to get a shiny new physical boxed copy of DX. It's completely unnecessary, but I love the look of it and the things inside. Anything for my favorite game (well not anything...). If they had good statues or merch I would buy it.

I miss the days when games came with full-color, hundred page manuals with backstory, character bios, and such. Nowadays you're lucky to get a one page insert with a list of keyboard/console controls. :(



Question for any and all of you: Out of curiosity; when it comes to immersion in the original, does the player immersion get broken or disturbed in any way when the conversation cutscenes happen?

Not for me, no. Although I'd love to see EM take the single best innovation of DXHR (first person conversations) a step further and make every convo in the game remain in first person, not just "battles."

CyberP
29th Aug 2014, 16:06
Personally, I never trusted Helios. He was created as a trap set by Page. Sure, he rejects Page and chooses JC, but there's still too much Icarus in him for my taste.


No way! JC + Helios= the Deus Ex Machina. ...Though as we see in IW it didn't work out as well as one would hope.


Tong's ending is easily the worst, though. So dumb.

Agreed.



Question for any and all of you: Out of curiosity; when it comes to immersion in the original, does the player immersion get broken or disturbed in any way when the conversation cutscenes happen?

To be honest Deus Ex doesn't do Immersion too well, despite all Ion Storm's efforts. It's all that Goof we talked about, in addition to some other factors. Doesn't mean they shouldn't have tried and that it still isn't immersive at times.

System Shock 2, Call of Cthulhu: DCotE or Arx Fatalis with the lights off playing in complete darkness? That's Immersion.

And to answer your specific question, yeah the convos can be a little immersion breaking: between the blocky NPC models, lack of anims, cutting to third person, and finally the occassional bad VA I struggle to be immersed in the protagonist's shoes, but not Immersed in the fun and also the gripping story.

Shralla
29th Aug 2014, 17:44
Huh. I didn't know that...oops. I usually go from the rooftops and probably only once through the basement entrance. Didn't even know there was water on the map (apart from the sewers).

I didn't find the actual entrance, only where it emerges in the basement of the warehouse. There's a looooong tunnel of water that gives you a skill point bonus if you swim through it, but at the other end is a door that presumably only opens from the outside to allow you in. I also only knew about one of the basement entrances. I've always gone over the rooftops and descended down into the warehouse.

Deus Ex still surprises me to this day. It's really quite a feeling.

AdrianShephard
29th Aug 2014, 18:26
Question for any and all of you: Out of curiosity; when it comes to immersion in the original, does the player immersion get broken or disturbed in any way when the conversation cutscenes happen?

Not really. The convos in HR broke immersion more because of the camera work IMO. When AJ has a convo with an NPC, the camera would first shift to that NPC and do a close up, then go to a Jensen close up, then alternate. I don't know why I don't like it...could be the amount of cuts used. I much prefer the pulled back camera angle where we see both characters at the same time, almost head-to-toe. That, or a strictly first-person convo.

68_pie
29th Aug 2014, 19:27
Wait, more than DXHR and DX1?? Or are you counting The Fall?

Why would anyone ever count The Fall? :p

WildcatPhoenix
29th Aug 2014, 20:30
Why would anyone ever count The Fall? :p

I didn't think so, but I also couldn't figure out why anyone would have played Invisible War more times than DX1? :scratch:

68_pie
29th Aug 2014, 21:01
I didn't think so, but I also couldn't figure out why anyone would have played Invisible War more times than DX1? :scratch:

I guess I like it more than most and it's easier to just dip in and out of. If I'm playing DX then I want to commit to it.

AlexOfSpades
29th Aug 2014, 22:11
* I played a run-and-gun playthrough in both normal and realistic difficulty... and it was very, very fun. (And easier than i thought)

* I don't use killphrases because i think they're cruel. I at least give them a good duel before they die, so they are destroyed with honor.

* I enjoyed Invisible War. (LASER. KATANAS.)

* I still have no clue who the hobo that i'm supposed to say "iron and copper" is. I never found the bastard.

* I memorized a few passwords and use them in later playthroughs instead of "finding" the datacube they're supposed to come from. That's kind of cheaty, no?

* I have never done a completely non-lethal playthrough. The dragon's tooth is so satisfying...

* I may or may not be sexually attracted to Walton Simons.

Mousehunt
30th Aug 2014, 00:32
The "Iron and Copper" Hobo is at the docks on the other side of Liberty Island from where you start, if I remember correctly.

The Helios-Denton ending is my favourite.

Have you guys ever been to the bottom of the Universal Constructor? Do you know what it does? It's actually pretty self explanatory, but it's much different seeing it working with your own eyes and seeing what it really does.

I always found the Dragon's Tooth to be a waste of inventory space.

I still have my original Deus Ex copy from when it was originally released back in 2000.

CyberP
30th Aug 2014, 01:07
Have you guys ever been to the bottom of the Universal Constructor? Do you know what it does? It's actually pretty self explanatory, but it's much different seeing it working with your own eyes and seeing what it really does..

What, where exactly? Which UC?

Mousehunt
30th Aug 2014, 01:34
The Universal Constructor at the end of DX1. It's at the very bottom floor of the last compound. Doin it's thing.

I'm sure there are a lot of DX players that havn't totally realized what it does, I only found out on my fifth playthrough what exactly it's for.

I'm pretty sure it's what everyone is actually fighting over at the end of DX1.

CyberP
30th Aug 2014, 01:37
The Universal Constructor at the end of DX1. It's at the very bottom floor of the last compound. Doin it's thing.

Ocean Lab UC or the mini-constructors in the final level/sector 4 of Area 51? The mini-constructors just spawn pawns out of thin air instantaneously, there's not even any special effects...

And now I must give this some special effects.

Mousehunt
30th Aug 2014, 01:59
Indeed. It took me five playthrough's to realize it universally constructs things. :D

Like, armies of indestructible cyborg super soldiers! If you wanted.

CyberP
30th Aug 2014, 02:35
Like, armies of indestructible cyborg super soldiers! If you wanted.

Army of custom cleaner bots armed with a Dragon's tooth each.

Jito463
30th Aug 2014, 04:12
Army of custom cleaner bots armed with a Dragon's tooth each.

Now you're obligated to include a code to MAKE THIS HAPPEN!

CyberP
30th Aug 2014, 05:07
Now you're obligated to include a code to MAKE THIS HAPPEN!

Mindless entertainment not worthy of my time http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/smiles/haughty.png

...I realise you were probably joking, and this could actually be done fairly easily and would be a laugh, but Deus Ex doesn't need any more "goof", it's got enough of that already. :cool:

FrankCSIS
30th Aug 2014, 05:15
Question for any and all of you: Out of curiosity; when it comes to immersion in the original, does the player immersion get broken or disturbed in any way when the conversation cutscenes happen?

You know, had to think a good long while to find a proper answer for this one, and I'm somewhat surprised by what came out of it.

I'm purely going on memory, because it's really only the first experience that counts for something like this. I realise I've never really played as JC, if that makes any sense. Don't think I was immersed, in the consensual role playing sense, but rather fully involved with the whole universe. The first person view, coupled with the completely unique narrative structure, allowed to experience the world without the intermediary of a character for all the playable sequences.

Consequently, I realise now that I've passively perceived all third person convos as if basically witnessing two NPCs exchanging, as just another tool to gain information on the world around me, and further insight into what was going on. In that perspective, third person convos had absolutely no effect on the overall experience. It didn't break immersion, in the proper sense, because I didn't really have that connection with JC to begin with. I cared for Paul, for instance, because *I* knew him, spent time with him and learned a lot about him, on my own (not with a spoon-fed narrative), not because I was JC and Paul was his/my brother.

I think that's also what bugs me the most about HR's third person stealth and takedowns. They created a sudden intermediary between me and the world during playable sequences, reminding me I was meant to play as Adam. It's as if the hands-on action in third person was more distracting than third person character interaction, somehow. I would still prefer first-person interaction, but somehow I suspect we'd have the same issue regarding immersion. Passively hearing *myself* having conversations really wouldn't do much, first person or not, even if I get to pick what I'm saying. At the end of the day, while actions such as shooting, hacking, sneaking and such are performed by me, the convos will always be passive, as if watching a film or reading dialogue, no matter which way we handle them.

EricaLeeV
30th Aug 2014, 06:53
Personally, I never trusted Helios. He was created as a trap set by Page. Sure, he rejects Page and chooses JC, but there's still too much Icarus in him for my taste.

My original playthrough, which in my head constitutes my personal "canon," I went with the Illuminati ending. JC then killed Everett later on.

That is an interesting canon! I just can't bring myself to do the Illuminati ending since they are responsible for the whole fiasco in the first place.


To me, Helios ending is THE ending because it ties everything up in a neat thematic bow. One can certainly say the same for all the endings to one degree or another, but Helios takes the cake.

This is all known information to many here but just to reiterate for the sake of explaining myself: Deus Ex derives it's title from "Deus Ex Machina" wherein a entity or God-like figure comes in suddenly and conveniently to resolve the plot (though that definition is dumbed down considerably). I like that it's also a clever nod from the devs acknowledging that, to play an individual that becomes a Deus Ex Machina is such a common trope in games. We, the players, are Gods of these stories in our own right. However, in JC's reality, it can literally mean God from the Machine.

This machine is the reason Paul and JC were made the way they were. The machine was what enhanced JC's greatest foes. The machine was the ultimate goal of the antagonist. The machine was how the world could be saved. Given all the good and bad the machine has presented in the narrative it's only proper that JC's act of giving in to the will of the Machine to become a God is ambiguous as can be.

However, despite what the latest installments of the series may show, the theme of man and machine is not the only theme present. Any ending decision ultimately has JC becoming a Deus Ex Machina as far as the story is concerned. The choices given at the end are truly asking the player to pick the best of a bad bunch; and I love that. No clean and happy wrap up here, which fits into the previously established narrative nicely.


The Helios ending was to be the only one implemented in the game originally so that's another reason why it probably fits best for me. That, and it's the conclusion to one of my favorite anime films, Ghost in the Shell.


I miss the days when games came with full-color, hundred page manuals with backstory, character bios, and such. Nowadays you're lucky to get a one page insert with a list of keyboard/console controls. :(

Right there with you, bud. I have so many worn manuals and game cases from the sheer amount if times little me spent browsing and redrawing the art there within. Actually, you know what? I don't remember if I've shown them here yet but where better a place to give photos of the box and contents than in this forum?

500

http://imageshack.com/a/img571/9586/sept2012dxback.png

http://imageshack.com/a/img832/1921/sept2012dxget.png

500

500

500

All but the top photo are over a year old so if you all want me to take better photos so the text is more legible then I can do that.



No way! JC + Helios= the Deus Ex Machina. ...Though as we see in IW it didn't work out as well as one would hope.

Exactly and concerning IW...yeah. I found the conversations with JCelios and Paul in that game quite enjoyable though. Them in their glory with their same outfits from the first game.


* I may or may not be sexually attracted to Walton Simons.

Hey, if crazy blue-vein-scarred dudes with subdued punk hair cuts are your thing then go for it. Walton's hair always seemed a little strange for someone in his office/position for me. Fits the setting, I guess.


Have you guys ever been to the bottom of the Universal Constructor? Do you know what it does? It's actually pretty self explanatory, but it's much different seeing it working with your own eyes and seeing what it really does.

Yes, I have been there and I hated that place. During my first playthrough I remember getting lost during that final mission, being low on supplies (as usual during that run), and then to come face to face with all those mutants...ugh.




Thanks for all the responses to my query, you guys. They are so varied and great to read.

The other week I saw an video wherein a well-known animator heavily criticized a much loved game from 1998, and a lot of the reason for his negativity was in how the camera changed from world traversal to combat; this got me curious. Brings me back to the many threads concerning the 3rd person cover, takedowns, and ladder use introduced in DXHR. Others can still input their opinions, I would love to read them. I apologize for any thread derail, Shralla.

Mousehunt
30th Aug 2014, 10:13
My CD and instruction manual are different. Also don't remember getting a CD case or that paper.

CyberP
30th Aug 2014, 12:44
That box and it's contents...I must have it.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
30th Aug 2014, 14:28
My CD and instruction manual are different. Also don't remember getting a CD case or that paper.

Yeah, this one is the American Import version, afaik. Very cool. :cool:

BridgetFisher
30th Aug 2014, 17:22
Killed all the cops in the police station and stuck every single one in the same vent, it was legendary, all the kills were stealth though to keep the inner ninja alive.

besyuziki
31st Aug 2014, 02:26
My original playthrough, which in my head constitutes my personal "canon," I went with the Illuminati ending. JC then killed Everett later on.


I've never been a big fan of the Illuminati Ending, but that's a great way to look at it. Everett is a disgusting, manipulative jizzball, almost on par with Page.



Tong's ending is easily the worst, though. So dumb.


Yeah. Let's shut everything down and become outdoorsmen with makeshift spears. What could go wrong?



Question for any and all of you: Out of curiosity; when it comes to immersion in the original, does the player immersion get broken or disturbed in any way when the conversation cutscenes happen?

I'm not so good at being "immersed" anyway, even in games that handle immersion better than DX.

I get distracted often and get picky about the smallest details. I start paying attention to repetitive texture patterns on large surfaces, made-up brands and logos, etc. and as a direct result I always feel like an observer of the universe instead of the protagonist. Even if the game pertained the first person perspective during dialogues (or JC's deaths), it wouldn't matter to me.

Nonetheless I enjoy interacting with a great world through JC, not as JC.

SageSavage
31st Aug 2014, 02:30
You know, had to think a good long while to find a proper answer for this one, and I'm somewhat surprised by what came out of it.

I'm purely going on memory, because it's really only the first experience that counts for something like this. I realise I've never really played as JC, if that makes any sense. Don't think I was immersed, in the consensual role playing sense, but rather fully involved with the whole universe. The first person view, coupled with the completely unique narrative structure, allowed to experience the world without the intermediary of a character for all the playable sequences.

Consequently, I realise now that I've passively perceived all third person convos as if basically witnessing two NPCs exchanging, as just another tool to gain information on the world around me, and further insight into what was going on. In that perspective, third person convos had absolutely no effect on the overall experience. It didn't break immersion, in the proper sense, because I didn't really have that connection with JC to begin with. I cared for Paul, for instance, because *I* knew him, spent time with him and learned a lot about him, on my own (not with a spoon-fed narrative), not because I was JC and Paul was his/my brother.

I think that's also what bugs me the most about HR's third person stealth and takedowns. They created a sudden intermediary between me and the world during playable sequences, reminding me I was meant to play as Adam. It's as if the hands-on action in third person was more distracting than third person character interaction, somehow. I would still prefer first-person interaction, but somehow I suspect we'd have the same issue regarding immersion. Passively hearing *myself* having conversations really wouldn't do much, first person or not, even if I get to pick what I'm saying. At the end of the day, while actions such as shooting, hacking, sneaking and such are performed by me, the convos will always be passive, as if watching a film or reading dialogue, no matter which way we handle them.

Yes, good job putting that into words.

xaduha2
2nd Sep 2014, 00:15
Playing pirated games was the norm around that time in so called Second World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World) (Tracer Tong even mentions pirated disks in the game).
So naturally my first copy of Deus Ex was pirated, with Voice-over_translation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice-over_translation). Yep.
Take a .wav* file out of context, listen to it once and off you go. Awkward silences between lines of dialogue were often (I don't know exactly why, audio length was wrong maybe)

BridgetFisher
2nd Sep 2014, 16:18
Playing pirated games was the norm around that time in so called Second World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World) (Tracer Tong even mentions pirated disks in the game).
So naturally my first copy of Deus Ex was pirated, with Voice-over_translation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice-over_translation). Yep.
Take a .wav* file out of context, listen to it once and off you go. Awkward silences between lines of dialogue were often (I don't know exactly why, audio length was wrong maybe)

That sounds real interesting, picturing that a person replaced the .wav files with something else? The next one would be epic with steam workshop if people could mod that in. Plus the game would last longer sales wise for years like Skyrim. Maybe thats the best way to make a cyberpunk game, let the players "hack" it?

David Holy
2nd Sep 2014, 18:25
Oh oh, what a wonderful thread. Here is my start with Deus Ex 1... I bought my first big pc with a 869 DM (around 500 euro) graphic card. One of the first game demos i played was Deus Ex. I never succeeded to get to the statue. Because i played it as a shooter and died always at the mech (who was also on your side). What at stupid game... Later i bought it again, as a game of the year edition... before i even could start the game, i had to do some hacking! Why? The old deus ex demo installment was an english version and i deleted it not in the right way, so i had to find out how to delete, the programm stuff, etc... registries and so on.. to install the german version, after hours of trying, calling friends (nope no internet at this point for poor old david...)

It was worth everything... remember my mum coming into my room, at 6 o clock in the morning, being surprised, oh you are already awake! (i didnt mention that i didnĀ“t sleep ;)

Nice times... nice game... cant wait for Deus Ex 4

Mousehunt
8th Sep 2014, 03:22
cant wait for Deus Ex 4

I would second this.

We are all going to wait right here Eidos until DX4. Patient as ninja until DX4.

Or like, patient as cybernetically augmented U.N.A.T.C.O. agents.

Mousehunt
15th Sep 2014, 09:57
I waited like a patient ninja for like, two weeks...

DX4 still isn't here yet! DAMN IT!!!