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Elliot Kane
24th Aug 2014, 04:09
As people seem to be pretty curious about this idea, I thought I'd set out what I mean by it in some detail, if for no other reason than I think it would make a good talking point!

First of all, I am not proposing endless number crunching or Lara gaining levels of experience or anything like that. Those are often used parts of RPG systems, but they are not an essential part of what makes an RPG.

RPGs are, in essence composed of three things: story, characterisation and player choice (Yes, JRPGs and ARPGs are something else, but bear with me!)

What I would like is to incorporate the essence of choice, as well as bringing in a few more elements from normal RPG systems, such as a proper inventory.

Lara has always had an inventory, but despite the backpack she wears everywhere, it's always been a bit basic. I'd like to be able to change weapons and outfits from within the inventory, allowing Lara to switch weapons or outfits as the player desires.

This would allow Lara to carry more weapons, as in the older games, and allow picked up outfits to be found within the game itself. Because there would still be buttons for things like using health packs, the interference of the inventory with game play would be fairly minimal, for those who are not keen.

Allowing for more inventory items also allows for new types of challenges, of course. Different outfits could be more effective in different areas (Heavy Arctic gear, swim wear, etc). Wear a bikini in the Arctic, and you'll freeze, etc.

The choice element comes in with conversations, of course. Though most of Lara's adventures do take place in isolation, there are always times when she talks to someone. Having dialogue options would help the player play Lara the way they see her.

It may also be interesting to give Lara a choice of routes (As was done with TR3. A very good idea, in a not very good game).

Other possible choices could involve things like 'shoot bad guy who is begging for mercy' or 'spare bad guy who is begging for mercy'. A situation Lara sees a lot! :D Both options could have consequences down the line, and not always as expected.

So I'm not really proposing to re-invent the wheel, here. Just deepen certain aspects of the game that have been there all along and give the player more choice in how to play 'their' Lara.

This is what I think AoD was on the edge of achieving. If they hadn't put in the silly push specific block stuff and actually finished the game before releasing it, I think it may have been the closest TR game yet to what I am proposing.

What are your thoughts, ladies and gentleman?

Lord Martok
24th Aug 2014, 09:48
I would love to see an open-world Lara RPG with many of the aspects you just mentioned. :)

Metalrocks
24th Aug 2014, 10:11
pretty much that as well. i liked these choices we had in AoD and it would be nice to see them as well in future games.

you also gave me an idea how lara should use her clothing. like if she is in an colder area and has no choice but to swim across a freezing cold river, she should take them off (obviously wearing a swimwear or even a isolation suit), put them in a bag and swim across. start a fire, warm up, put on the dry clothing. ready to go.
if she does not, she will be freezing for the rest of the way and it would stop her from moving properly and choosing paths she could reach if she was still dry.

Jurre
24th Aug 2014, 10:24
I love the idea.

It surely would deviate from the standard Tomb Raider formula, but I think this series will have to keep exploring new things - and isn't that what TR is all about? - to keep it fresh. I mean I think they can make the same game as TR9 with different settings and things for one or two more times, but then people and the press will start to complain that every TR is the same again...

Incidently I was just talking to my friends about the possibility of Lara ever having a romantic affair. Not everyone seemed to agree on it, but my conclusion was that the only way to do this was to turn it into an RPG... If the storyteller would just decide for her who she's gonna get romantically involved with there would be too many people who wouldn't approve of that perticular person (if it were Sam, for instance) and there would be riots in the streets. That is why it should be the choice of the player: amongst the NPC's that can be talked to as was suggested earlier there should be at least three different guys with different personalities and backgrounds that can be potential boyfriends... And the fourth would be... *sigh*... Sam, for the ones who are into that... And for the ones who think that Lara should be single for all eternity, they can just romance nobody.

Not only would that make sure that nobody is unhappy; it could potentially become one of Tomb Raiders biggest assets, as the romancing is one of Mass Effects biggest assets right now...

Elliot Kane
24th Aug 2014, 10:45
Thanks, guys :)

***

Metal,

Clothing based puzzles would be cool, yeah. I kind of like pinching the 'combine items to get better/different items' mechanic common to adventure games, too. There's a lot that can be done with an inventory.

***

Jurre,

I agree that an RPG is about the only way to include romance options without the fan base exploding, yes. The trick is continuing the story through multiple games, with multiple romance options. Still, as long as the love interest is basically a support character, it's definitely doable. It's not like they would be with Lara for much of the game, after all.

And yes, Tomb Raider needs to keep evolving. I think all game franchises do, honestly.

Metalrocks
24th Aug 2014, 11:26
the game drakan had a nice inventory system. you always had the option to select what weapon she should use and of course you had the option to select if she should wear her armor. just of course it took away a lot of space if you didnt wear the armor.
but, what was a very good thing in this game, was that the swords cant be used all the time. the more you used it, the more they got damaged until she stood there without any weapon or automatically switched if she had one in her inventory.
i can see this happening with laras cloths as well. the more it gets damaged, she either has to fix them or use other clothing or use anything like some old rags or what ever to keep warm or just to protect her self from more damage.

and about the relationship part:
yep, optional would be a great idea. and having an option for romance should be left for the player to decide.
but generally he has a good point that it does need some changes to keep the franchise fresh and interesting.

Elliot Kane
24th Aug 2014, 12:50
Not keen on item damage in TR. It works great in Diablo 2, but I'm not really convinced it's something that would fit with TR. And moreso as it's rare for Lara to be in close quarters combat, so what would be damaging her guns, exactly? Plus, fiddly. Not sure TR fans would warm to too much fiddly.

I probably play more RPGs than anything else (Except maybe RTS', but still), so I'm used to massive amounts of upgrading, number crunching, etc, don't get me wrong. I even enjoy it, which probably means I'm a masochist :D

But - for me, Lara Croft the RPG should not move too far away from the basic idea of the game. Even at the expense of the number crunching! :D

a_big_house
24th Aug 2014, 13:09
Not keen on item damage in TR.

But it won't be Tomb Raider ;)

I think some item damage is okay, like Armour and melee weapons, but ranged and artefacts no :)

Also, to expand on fast travel, there should be a system like the one in Just Cause 2, where Lara would be picked up in a chopper and dropped off to a location instead of just zapping there. The chopped could cost some in game dolla' too? :D

d1n0_xD
24th Aug 2014, 13:10
@EK Yes, not full-on RPG, but a Tomb Raider game with various RPG elements. We've seen some of them in the previous game, now's the question what can be added to enhance the experience, not ruin it :D

Elliot Kane
24th Aug 2014, 13:13
@EK Yes, not full-on RPG, but a Tomb Raider game with various RPG elements. We've seen some of them in the previous game, now's the question what can be added to enhance the experience, not ruin it :D

Absolutely, D1no, yes :)

***

ABH,

Must admit, I'm thinking more in terms of 'improved Tomb Raider' rather than 'totally new game'.

I'd want to bring over as many TR fans as possible, after all :)

Metalrocks
24th Aug 2014, 13:17
lol, i think you misunderstood my meaning of damage. i just mentioned weapon damage from drakan. not laras weapons, but her clothing instead. the only weapon that could be damaged would be her climbing axe.

Elliot Kane
24th Aug 2014, 13:19
Yeah, that could work, Metal :)

Could include sewing kits for clothing repair as well as med packs! :D

a_big_house
24th Aug 2014, 13:25
ABH,

Must admit, I'm thinking more in terms of 'improved Tomb Raider' rather than 'totally new game'.

I'd want to bring over as many TR fans as possible, after all :)

T_T

Dreams = Crushed

Elliot Kane
24th Aug 2014, 13:32
T_T

Dreams = Crushed

Well, we could always go the complete RPG route: levelling, shops, loot drops, stat increasing, items that give Lara bonuses to various abilities, even give her recruitable companions to work with her... But would it still be recognisable as a Lara Croft game?

Would any TR fan see it as being remotely recognisable?

It's the kind of game I'd probably enjoy, sure (Reading my comic tells you that, right? :D), but it's not really Tomb Raider.

a_big_house
24th Aug 2014, 13:45
But it doesn't have to be Tomb Raider, the two LC games we already have aren't exactly Tomb Raider. I think a fair amount of people (not necessarily fans) would be up for it, the Star Wars and LotRs franchises both have (MMO)RPG games, so there'd be some amount of interest there.

Weemanply109
24th Aug 2014, 13:46
I think an important discussion about this transition is the demographic that like RPG's and if it's a wider audience than the TReboot has and/or will it put these new fans off the game?

A lot of fans like the new action/shooter style of Tomb Raider. Not sure if they'd be on board for a slower paced game with non-linear gameplay (though I'd love that!)

Thetford
24th Aug 2014, 13:47
Also, to expand on fast travel, there should be a system like the one in Just Cause 2, where Lara would be picked up in a chopper and dropped off to a location instead of just zapping there. The chopped could cost some in game dolla' too? :D

This is essentially what one of my suggestions to the Wishlist thread, just with a campervan instead of a helicopter, that would work as a campsite +1, where you only can fast travel between campervan sites, while not being able to fast travel to or from regular campsites. The campervan would be were all the NPCs will be without having them turn into a Samsel in Distress, and can offer expert opinions that Lara may lack (such as geology, biology, engineering etc). In addition, it can be used as storage (let's say she can only take one large gun such as a shotgun or rifle with her, she has to choose at the campervan).

In terms of a damage system, the best one I have seen for clothes is The Sims Castaway (Wii), in which clothes, especially normal ones from civilisation, get damaged to the point shirts and trousers become boob tubes and hot pants, however, a sewing kit can repair clothes (as well as shave and give haircuts), but not to the original state, but a repaired version of the state it is in (tears are sewn closed, etc). However, this may be too in depth for Tomb Raider.

Elliot Kane
24th Aug 2014, 14:00
But it doesn't have to be Tomb Raider, the two LC games we already have aren't exactly Tomb Raider. I think a fair amount of people (not necessarily fans) would be up for it, the Star Wars and LotRs franchises both have (MMO)RPG games, so there'd be some amount of interest there.


I think an important discussion about this transition is the demographic that like RPG's and if it's a wider audience than the TReboot has and/or will it put these new fans off the game?

A lot of fans like the new action/shooter style of Tomb Raider. Not sure if they'd be on board for a slower paced game with non-linear gameplay (though I'd love that!)

True, both. I'm not sure how popular RPGs are outside of the PC, to be honest, which could be a problem. Consoles do get a lot of JRPGs, sure, but all the best CRPGs - Baldur's Gate, PS:T, etc - are PC only. Whether that's because they are impossible on console or a lot less popular, I don't know.

While I think a lot of us would really like a full-on RPG with all the trimmings (I know I would!), there may indeed be demographic problems.

For something like that, there would certainly have to be a new series name, to differentiate it from the actual Tomb Raider series (I kinda like 'The Adventures Of Lara Croft').

My original, more modest, proposal would be a Tomb Raider game, just with a few tweaks I feel would deepen the experience. This would be something else.

But what the heck, right? The more ideas the merrier, IMO :)

ARaider
24th Aug 2014, 14:37
For something like that, there would certainly have to be a new series name, to differentiate it from the actual Tomb Raider series (I kinda like 'The Adventures Of Lara Croft').

Damn I was just about to post that!:p
I really like RPG games, but I don't want that the reboot games are going to be a RPG, and sure they can add some things, but not that much. I think they should make a new serie of games for that.


(Little bit OT, but does anyone knows about the RPG serie dragon quest? ((it's sooo good imo.:D))

Driber
24th Aug 2014, 14:58
I think we can all agree that a franchise must keep evolving to stay fresh. But to me this is just empty platitude, really. It's all about how you do it. Not all changes proposed by fans (myself included) are necessary "good" and "fresh" and will not necessarily help to move a franchise forward, just like keeping everything the same is not always good ;)


Lara has always had an inventory, but despite the backpack she wears everywhere, it's always been a bit basic. I'd like to be able to change weapons and outfits from within the inventory, allowing Lara to switch weapons or outfits as the player desires.

Switching weapons at will - TR already does that.

Switching outfits at will - this doesn't necessarily make the game an "RPG". There are RPGs in which you can't change your outfit until you are home. Which is something TR already did in previous games. In fact, in TR9 it was even easier to change outfits; you just had to find a camp site.


This would allow Lara to carry more weapons, as in the older games, and allow picked up outfits to be found within the game itself. Because there would still be buttons for things like using health packs, the interference of the inventory with game play would be fairly minimal, for those who are not keen.

I don't see your point here, really. Lara can already carry as many weapons as they exist. In fact, I've seen people even complaining about weapons disappearing from her body when they switch. Which IMO is not a problem at all, but there you go...


Allowing for more inventory items also allows for new types of challenges, of course. Different outfits could be more effective in different areas (Heavy Arctic gear, swim wear, etc). Wear a bikini in the Arctic, and you'll freeze, etc.

Didn't we already have a thread on this? I remember people posting all kinds of outfit suggestions together with entire lists like health +10, armour -20, etc.


The choice element comes in with conversations, of course. Though most of Lara's adventures do take place in isolation, there are always times when she talks to someone. Having dialogue options would help the player play Lara the way they see her.

I don't see TR becoming heavy on dialogue options. I think the level of options like in AoD were as much as could be workable in a TR game. And even those were pretty much meaningless; if you chose the "wrong" option, you simply died. There was no significant alter outcome from choosing different dialog options.


It may also be interesting to give Lara a choice of routes (As was done with TR3. A very good idea, in a not very good game).

TR3 was one of the best TR games ever. The alternative routes were a nice way to make the player feel more free, but at the end of the day it really wasn't that much different from having just one straight path, which the majority of the game was made of.

And if I'm not mistaken, TR9 actually had similar amount of alternative paths.


Other possible choices could involve things like 'shoot bad guy who is begging for mercy' or 'spare bad guy who is begging for mercy'. A situation Lara sees a lot! :D Both options could have consequences down the line, and not always as expected.

This one I like :) :thumb:

I can see a scenario where for example Lara spares more than 50% of people begging for their lives, a crew mate make some comment about Lara being merciful. And if Lara kills more than 50% of people begging, then she'd get some nasty eyes from her crew mates :D

d1n0_xD
24th Aug 2014, 16:08
Well, we could always go the complete RPG route: levelling, shops, loot drops, stat increasing, items that give Lara bonuses to various abilities, even give her recruitable companions to work with her... But would it still be recognisable as a Lara Croft game?

Would any TR fan see it as being remotely recognisable?

It's the kind of game I'd probably enjoy, sure (Reading my comic tells you that, right? :D), but it's not really Tomb Raider.

I posted something similar in that other thread, all my good ideas aren't in this thread :p But yeah, it would be recognizable, IMO. It was recognizable in the previous games, right?
And believe me, RPGs are popular on consoles too, especially Dragon Age and Mass Effect.


This one I like :) :thumb:

I can see a scenario where for example Lara spares more than 50% of people begging for their lives, a crew mate make some comment about Lara being merciful. And if Lara kills more than 50% of people begging, then she'd get some nasty eyes from her crew mates :D

Yep, that would be nice, but it adds the question of how much it changes the story or something, is it only getting nasty eyes from her crew mates (maybe they don't want to interact with her anymore, closing off some side-content) or different endings? Not sure how much would people go for different endings, but changes within a single game would be cool, thus increasing replay value :)

Driber
24th Aug 2014, 16:15
Yep, that would be nice, but it adds the question of how much it changes the story or something, is it only getting nasty eyes from her crew mates (maybe they don't want to interact with her anymore, closing off some side-content) or different endings? Not sure how much would people go for different endings, but changes within a single game would be cool, thus increasing replay value :)

Relatively small changes, yes.

Anything as big as completely different endings I don't see happening in a TR game any time soon.

Jurre
24th Aug 2014, 16:16
You know, Elliot Kane - and others - the more I think of this the more I believe we are onto something... With a longstanding game like TR and a fanbase that is made up of several different groups - old fans, new fans, even newer fans - who have different ideas of what Tomb Raider should be - less action, more action, more puzzles, less dialogue, and so on - and who Lara Croft should be - more girly, less girly, evil, nice, more friends, no friends - I think the RPG would be the natural way in which this game would evolve.

That way all those people can more or less shape the experience in the way they want it to be. That way we wouldn't have to argue whether Lara's eyeliner is waterproof or not, the ones who want eyeliner on her just put in on in the character costumization and the ones that don't don't. The ones who want more action do the action sidequests and the ones who want puzzles do the puzzle sidequests.

Driber
24th Aug 2014, 16:59
Nah, you'll always have people arguing and complaining about every little thing, even with RPG elements to the max. And in a way, that is what makes this TR community so fun - having these endless discussions :D

As long as they stay civil, that is ;)

I do like the idea of some RPG elements, and it certainly makes for interesting hypotheticals, but at the end of the day I just want TR to focus on what's important - raiding tombs.

The only thing I passionately advocate in terms of making things optional are UI things, like them bloody hints/helper icons/pop ups :mad:

Valenka
24th Aug 2014, 17:38
I do like the idea of some RPG elements, and it certainly makes for interesting hypotheticals, but at the end of the day I just want TR to focus on what's important - raiding tombs.

Agreed.
I wouldn't want Tomb Raider to become Skyrim of sorts...well, actually that would be cool. I don't want TR to become a total RPG, but some elements could do it justice. Open world, for starters, with being able to walk around and talk to different people, choose what Lara says, etc. similar to Angel of Darkness and Mass Effect.

AdobeArtist
24th Aug 2014, 18:30
I'm not too crazy about the idea of infinite carrying capacity in a "magic backpack". I much prefer having a carrying limit, hence only 3 guns and 1 bow (the pistols have a belt holster working in that design). And the same should be for clothes.

Now I know some people are going to rebuke; "This is video games, not real life, Adobe". Yeah I know that games aren't supposed to be "completely" realistic. As I've often said, it's not so much about realism but rather verisimilitude. The best way to create the illusion of realism within the fiction, and in the case of games, within the parameters of the game mechanics.

So the idea that Lara can carry an entire wardrobe in her backpack is quite absurd. I know it's or the convenience of switching outfits for the situation, but still... her backpack isn't the TARDIS :p

If we're talking about RPGs, it should be noted that most do implement inventory limits, based on either slots or weight. Granted these limits can still be somewhat unrealistic where the character is able to carry around 4 swords and 2 spare sets of armor. But the limits of what the player can carry in the world are supplemented by a town stash. And that is the solution. Spare outfits and weapons should be held in a stash (like the base camps) so the player can have the outfits necessary for various exploration conditions, and they need to plan carefully what they'll take with them (Lara) before going into that new terrain.




In terms of a damage system, the best one I have seen for clothes is The Sims Castaway (Wii), in which clothes, especially normal ones from civilisation, get damaged to the point shirts and trousers become boob tubes and hot pants, however, a sewing kit can repair clothes (as well as shave and give haircuts), but not to the original state, but a repaired version of the state it is in (tears are sewn closed, etc). However, this may be too in depth for Tomb Raider.

This is something I really wanted to see in TR2013. It would have really reinforced the survival atmosphere. We already had the condition of Lara's clothes reflecting her deterioration from the experiences of her ordeals. But how much more visceral it would have been if the clothes got into such a state they were no longer wearable and didn't provide the protection from the elements any more.

The idea of having to replace clothing that got worn out with the resources of the environment would have deepened the survival experience, and visually fit in with Lara clad in a makeshift animal skin ensemble. You can see how it expresses her leaving behind the vestiges of civilization and adapting to the her surroundings.




Incidently I was just talking to my friends about the possibility of Lara ever having a romantic affair. Not everyone seemed to agree on it, but my conclusion was that the only way to do this was to turn it into an RPG... If the storyteller would just decide for her who she's gonna get romantically involved with there would be too many people who wouldn't approve of that perticular person (if it were Sam, for instance) and there would be riots in the streets. That is why it should be the choice of the player: amongst the NPC's that can be talked to as was suggested earlier there should be at least three different guys with different personalities and backgrounds that can be potential boyfriends... And the fourth would be... *sigh*... Sam, for the ones who are into that... And for the ones who think that Lara should be single for all eternity, they can just romance nobody.

Not only would that make sure that nobody is unhappy; it could potentially become one of Tomb Raiders biggest assets, as the romancing is one of Mass Effects biggest assets right now...

Whoa whoa whoa, I think you're rushing to conclusions to say that romance story elements can work ONLY in an RPG dynamic. And I keep advocating that it works in other linear and scripted action games that are story driven. No reason it can't work for Tomb Raider just as well.

It's not that I'm opposed to seeing the franchise adopt these kind of designs. Just stressing that it need not rely on them as a crutch as the only way it's possible.

Now I can already see where the counterargument is going; "other games have new characters that were already shown to have their love interests, whereas Lara is an established character with 17 years of history".

While you and others may see that as a prerequisite for why this aspect of Lara can't change, I would argue that it highlights the very point in why it should change. The very fact that she's 17 years old (IP age) and originates from 4 generations back when the gaming medium was at the beginning of the 3D era and in its infancy of cinematic story telling - games had yet to find their potential as story driven interactive experiences. And there's still so much more potential to b reached.

Lara is a product of primitive character development, confined by the limits of the tech and medium. Back then most characters were just avatars to jump and attack on command, where character story was very basic "comic book" material of "they are the hero and are born to be awesome" formula.

But this is now 17 years later and that simplistic character scheme just doesn't cut it any more. To keep Lara thriving today, she has to grow from her simple roots. People have been talking about evolution and that's the point. This is am opportunity to evolve her character development to the standards of modern game story telling. Lara in 2015 and onwards shouldn't still appear to be a product of 5th gen (PS1, N64, Saturn) game design.

I don't even see this as changing, but really expanding on the foundation of Lara Croft. This isn't to take away from what we expect from her (courage, wit, determination, thirst for knowledge, curiosity and sense of wonder, etc...) but to add to it.

This kind of character expansion is in the very same vein as what they did to her personality in making her more vulnerable and emotional. Remember how much outcry there was in the beginning? The protests along the lines of "OMG, they made her weak, she's a wuss now, she's not the brave adventurer we knew... THIS IS NOT LARA CROFT... etc...". BUT... over time and as players came to experience this new emotional side of Lara, many turned around and came to embrace this new found humanity. Sure not all but I do think the acceptance now outweighs the opposition.

With the right kind of writing to show she can have feelings for another person while still being the strong independent explorer, that she need not sacrifice that part of her to have some intimacy in her life, that gamers can come to welcome this as another part of Lara that enriches her life, not taking away from it.

Oh and to circle back to the RPG angle, with the comparison to Mass Effect (and other Bioware games) there's a reason player options work so well there, but not necessarily for TR. It's not specific to RPG's in the mechanics sense, but how in those games, the character is the players avatar, a product of our creation (even in so far as looks) and not the developers predefined character.

Lara is not our character, any more then Link, or Master Chief, Ezio, Kratos, Solid Snake, Marcus Feenix, Samus, Max Payne, Kasumi, Batman, and so on. She's a scripted character for the game makers to tell their story, so in that sense it's probably best to leave her character development in their hands. And to that end I advocate we the gaming community should be more open to allow them to expand her in new directions that allow her to grow from how we knew her 17 years ago, so she can remain relevant to the modern gaming space.

I know I know... "dammit Adobe WHY did you have to make another long-ass post?!?!?!?" :o:o:o

Jurre
24th Aug 2014, 20:06
Adobe: you sure get an A+ for arguing, but I do think there's a few things you're missing here.

You're saying: if people don't like certain aspects of Lara's character they'll complain first but will accept it later - look at how there was complains about her getting emotional first and not anymore. Partially true, but I don't remember it to be that much of an outcry, and I think that is due to people realizing that this all was a leadup to Lara becoming the Lara that we know from previous games. In other words: in their heads people knew that this screaming crying Lara was always gonna be temporary.

Once we got that out of the way it would be time to develop her actual character traits. And to be honest I don't see how they could take a very specific route, giving her some real character traits, and be able to please even HALF of the fanbase... Whether we like or not, whether it is just or not, everybody by now is projecting their own values and personality on her, so whatever they come up with, it always gonna be disappointing to a lot of people.

Maybe they will adjust as you say, but then there is also the case of Crystal Dynamics having the spine of a goldfish: I think we both know them well enough to know that they would rather keep Lara characterless than to take some actual risk with her. They tried to give character and admosphere to Legend and they suffered a fan crapstorm for it.

But okay, even if the fanbase would eventually accept it if the developers would decide that Lara collects playing cards and likes to read Umberto Ecco books and that her favourite film is Lawrence of Arabia, it is possible. But how can you possibly expect the fanbase to accept any love interest that they give her? As far as character development goes this is about the biggest thing possible, and it weighs huge for people. Again, because they project themselves on her. A little while ago we got some people who were arguing with crusader like fury that Lara would be a lesbian, because in their eyes she was a lesbian. There is no way in heaven they can just make up a love interest for her without at least half of the fanbase disapproving and another quarter losing their heads over it.
And again, with Crystal Dynamics being so afraid of risks I think I can fairly safely say that would never ever dare it. So I really do think that going the RPG route is the only shot Lara would ever have at romance. Your arguments not withstanding, because for the most part you make a good case, but I really doubt the stomach of Crystal Dynamics here...

Besides, I also would just really like a Tomb Raider RPG...

Driber
24th Aug 2014, 21:35
Agreed.
I wouldn't want Tomb Raider to become Skyrim of sorts...well, actually that would be cool. I don't want TR to become a total RPG, but some elements could do it justice. Open world, for starters, with being able to walk around and talk to different people, choose what Lara says, etc. similar to Angel of Darkness and Mass Effect.

Yup. RPG elements AoD style would be good enough for most people I reckon. TR simply just doesn't lend itself well to become another Final Fantasy, lol.


[Another long post about verisimilitude]

You sure are the king of repeating this argument, AA. In how many threads did you post this verisimilitude stuff by now? :p

I really don't care about hyper realism in a TR game, nor do I care about verisimilitude, hyper immersion, and all those fancy terms people use to push their personal taste of what a videogame (or rather, TR) should be like.

The main thing that the devs should concern them with is tomb, tomb, and tombs. Everything else is secondary. And overrated :whistle:

AdobeArtist
24th Aug 2014, 22:36
Adobe: you sure get an A+ for arguing

awww :o:o


They tried to give character and atmosphere to Legend and they suffered a fan crapstorm for it.


I don't recall any uproar over Legend :scratch:


But okay, even if the fanbase would eventually accept it if the developers would decide that Lara collects playing cards and likes to read Umberto Ecco books and that her favourite film is Lawrence of Arabia, it is possible.


You see, this is also in line with what I'd like to see in Lara's development. To explore other avenues of her personality, to see her grow as a fully rounded person, that there's more to her than just her vocation. Of course that's all connected to the substance of what lies beneath the surface of Lara, what makes her tick and to solidify that she's a real person with feelings.


As far as character development goes this is about the biggest thing possible


All the more reason it shouldn't be left unaddressed, as it's such an important part of the human experience ;) :whistle:


Besides, I also would just really like a Tomb Raider RPG...

Maybe as a spinoff title, like Guardian of Light and Temple of Osris. But then no reason the love interest shouldn't be present in both the main title and expansions. It IS the same person being featured in all of them after all, so the character should be consistent.




The main thing that the devs should concern them with is tomb, tomb, and tombs. Everything else is secondary. And overrated :whistle:

What about verisimilitude for the tombs? :p

a_big_house
24th Aug 2014, 22:41
It IS the same person being featured in all of them after all, so the character should be consistent.

Noo, no no no :lol:

Tomb Raider - Reboot Lara
Lara Croft - LAU Lara

Two totally different women :D

Driber
24th Aug 2014, 22:48
What about verisimilitude for the tombs? :p

You mean like Lara melting down to a puddle as soon as she sets foot in the lava room? No thanks :p

Jurre
24th Aug 2014, 23:02
awww :o:oYeah, yeah, but don't let it get to your head alright :D

It's just that you don't have to be ashamed for long walls of text: those often say sensible things...


I don't recall any uproar over Legend :scratch:
You don't recall the peoples outrage over Lara chatting with Zip and Allister or her searching for her mum? Because how dare they imply that Lara has friends and feelings and cares about her family. What is she? A human being or something??



You see, this is also in line with what I'd like to see in Lara's development. To explore other avenues of her personality, to see her grow as a fully rounded person, that there's more to her than just her vocation. Of course that's all connected to the substance of what lies beneath the surface of Lara, what makes her tick and to solidify that she's a real person with feelings.


All the more reason it shouldn't be left unaddressed, as it's such an important part of the human experience ;) :whistle:
I couldn't agree more, but I feel that RPG is the way to do that, for reasons explained above. You're saying that the gaming community should be open and allow the developers to let Lara grow as a person. Well if we could convince every one of them of that I guess things would be hunky dory but this community has always shown itself to be a very conservative one, although less so lately...

But even for less conservative people I think it would improve their gaming quality if the game would allow them to more or less shape the protagonists character and the overall experience to their taste. If you allow other people to map out the protagonists character you'll never know what you'll get. For instance, would you like my example of Lara collecting cards and watching Lawrence of Arabia? I mean I like Lawrence of Arabia, so I would like it if Lara likes that. But if someone else would say: 'no her favourite movie is Pirates of the Carribean and that's canon now...' I would be like 'ugh'...

Metalrocks
25th Aug 2014, 02:03
ok, one thing we are certainly all agreeing on, and has been mentioned earlier, that we want to raid tombs. having a full RPG is something i dont want either.
if they keep it like in AOD or the riddick game butcher bay. this i can see happening. even when the choices didnt alter the ending, it was still there and didnt deflect from the character either.

the romance part would be an interesting addition regardless, without diverting laras passion for raiding and caring for her friends. having this part optional would be the best choice without huge altering of her friends and the ending.

now about the clothing what AA said:
like i have mentioned a page back, she has to fix and/or even find something to cover her self once her clothing is worn off. i also dont want her to carry lots of clothing with her. doesnt matter if being realistic or not. it would just add more to survival that way. the changing clothing part in the last TR was all nice but the thing was, that they were DLCs and didnt take any damage as her default clothing. plus, you had to find a campfire first to do this. but even if her default clothing for torn, there were plenty of things around she could have used to fix her clothing or even cover her self.

the river crossing part i have mentioned that she should remove her clothing so that they stay dry would be a very vital survival part.
what lara can carry with her is a second pair of clothing like a protective suit if she has to enter a very cold or hot area. but then the player should consider changing back to laras normal clothing (once out of the nasty area of course) not to wear it off as well.
this alone can create some tension that you have to be careful where you go and what you do.

Elliot Kane
25th Aug 2014, 03:15
I like Adobe's idea of a stash (Presumably back at Lara's base camp) for storing stuff she doesn't need now but might later. As supply caches are a standard survival thing, it even fits with the current theme.

I like Driber's idea of a sort of indirect reputation system, too, with people reacting to Lara according to how many unnecessary killings she's done. This also might be used to open up or close down side quests, with the nicer people not really trusting a too bloodthirsty Lara. Of course the less nice people might prefer a Lara who kills her foes...

I agree that different endings aren't too likely in a TR game any time soon.

Romance - well, I should congratulate MS/SE on finding a way to piss off the fans nearly as much as romantic options would, but only nearly! :D The problem is that every TR fan has a very firm idea of what Lara gets up to (Or doesn't!) off screen. Whether she is Aphrodite, Artemis or Sappho is surely best left in the minds of the players.

Driber
25th Aug 2014, 09:52
Nope, I don't agree with romance elements. At all. Whether it be part of official lore, or shoe-horned into a game via an RPG system, romancing is something best left to other games. Lara doesn't need it.

There's a great RPG style game out there to satisfy people's needs for shipping, it's called Mass Effect :wave:

And do not put condescending labels like "conservative fan" or "stubborn old Lara fan" on everyone who doesn't agree with your obsession to vicariously get into Lara's pants, and do not smugly call yourself a "progressive fan" when you merely have different ideas on how to "humanize" Lara's character (something which I believe to be a false dichotomy, as I am certain all fans support a "more human" Lara :cool:).

CroftManiac
25th Aug 2014, 10:08
Nope, I don't agree with romance elements. At all. Whether it be part of official lore, or shoe-horned into a game via an RPG system, romancing is something best left to other games. Lara doesn't need it.

There's a great RPG style game out there to satisfy people's needs for shipping, it's called Mass Effect :wave:

And do not put condescending labels like "conservative fan" or "stubborn old Lara fan" on everyone who doesn't agree with your obsession to vicariously get into Lara's pants, and do not smugly call yourself a "progressive fan" when you merely have different ideas on how to "humanize" Lara's character (something which I believe to be a false dichotomy, as I am certain all fans support a "more human" Lara :cool:).

Yup. I agree! Romance doesn't suit to a TOMB RAIDER game. I have had enough with Lara and Curtis ( which wasn't actually a romance :p , sort of )

Driber
25th Aug 2014, 10:10
lol, in a way we did have another Lara and Kurtis moment in the new game...

CroftManiac
25th Aug 2014, 10:12
lol, in a way we did have another Lara and Kurtis moment in the new game...

Uh... meaning?? :scratch: You mean you want another Lara & Kurtis?

Jurre
25th Aug 2014, 10:17
Yup. I agree! Romance doesn't suit to a TOMB RAIDER game. I have had enough with Lara and Curtis ( which wasn't actually a romance :p , sort of )

If you read my post #4, you see that in RPG style romance is always optional - the player can always choose whether to do it or not. So there's no reason why anyone should be against it.

It's one of the reasons why I think that this would be a better way to do that than just shoving the romance into the story like Adobe proposes... Sorry Adobe :o but you see that not everyone is up to this...

Driber
25th Aug 2014, 10:22
Uh... meaning?? :scratch: You mean you want another Lara & Kurtis?

lol no. I was jokingly referring to the Vlad scene ;)


If you read my post #4, you see that in RPG style romance is always optional - the player can always choose whether to do it or not. So there's no reason why anyone should be against it.

Oh there is. I think you're just kind of too stubborn to see / acknowledge it. No offense. Believe me, "optional" is not the holy grail you think it is, not by a long shot, good Sir.

Apart from romance options, I can name a whole bunch of other things which the devs could hypothetically put in a TR game as an option which would piss off a lot of fans and cause huge controversies in the media :whistle:

CroftManiac
25th Aug 2014, 10:34
lol no. I was jokingly referring to the Vlad scene ;)



Oh there is. I think you're just kind of too stubborn to see / acknowledge it. No offense. Believe me, "optional" is not the holy grail you think it is, not by a long shot, good Sir.

Apart from romance options, I can name a whole bunch of other things which the devs could hypothetically put in a TR game as an option which would piss off a lot of fans and cause huge controversies in the media :whistle:

Couldn't agree more! :thumb: :thumb: :D

Metalrocks
25th Aug 2014, 14:19
lol no. I was jokingly referring to the Vlad scene ;)



Oh there is. I think you're just kind of too stubborn to see / acknowledge it. No offense. Believe me, "optional" is not the holy grail you think it is, not by a long shot, good Sir.

Apart from romance options, I can name a whole bunch of other things which the devs could hypothetically put in a TR game as an option which would piss off a lot of fans and cause huge controversies in the media :whistle:

not to sound like a stubborn jerk but can you give an explanation why "optional" can not work? why should that piss of fans? if it would be forced, i can fully understand that but optional? i must be really missing something here to comprehend that. :scratch:
so what optional parts would piss off fans you think the devs could change? lara can choose between shooting 1 handgun or 2?

only because we have mass effect for these "optional" romance, doesnt mean its only good for these games. after all, ME also got under fire when they announced that you can romance a man when you play as a male character. it was freaking optional and people still cried out. if you are referring that this will be same for TR as well then i simply have to shake my head to that.
i might come across like an idiot now for saying this and i sure dont mean any disrespect here and towards others but as i said, i just like to understand why optional is still seen as a problem.

AdobeArtist
25th Aug 2014, 14:35
I couldn't agree more


That's all I needed :cool:



I mean I like Lawrence of Arabia, so I would like it if Lara likes that. But if someone else would say: 'no her favourite movie is Pirates of the Carribean and that's canon now...' I would be like 'ugh'...

You see, that's where I think you take the way people identify with a character all wrong. It doesn't have to be a sharing of identical interests or personality traits. It just has to be some form of characterization that makes the fiction more real, so people simply get "this is a person with their own motives, ambitions, feelings, wants, needs, perspective, idiosyncrasies, etc...". Even if it's not the exact same as the given viewer, it's still a shared commonality to have these traits at all. For example, we don't all like the same music, but interest in music in general terms is a common characteristic among groups of people.

As long as you create that foundation, audiences can still identify that character as another person with traits, while not "exact" are still similar enough to relate to.

I mean are all your friends in your life "exactly" like you? Do you not identify with them because their perspective isn't like yours? Of course you get them. If they feel attraction for Asian girls while yours leans towards Latina (random example) your friend isn't going to become alien to you. I'm sure you would perfectly understand that the basic feelings of attraction are the same as yours, just not in the specific details.

So let's not feel that we're alienating any portion of the audience if Lara turns out to like steaks, that vegetarians can no longer identify with Lara. We ALL have preferences for food that doesn't have to be the same to understand that preference. Hunger is a common experience after all.

Same with sexuality. What ever the preferences, everybody gets that we all have feelings of attraction, and it doesn't have to be the same as each individual. It just has to be there to make a character more believable as a person. Even if a lesbian wanted to see Lara as a lesbian, do you think they couldn't understand it if she was attracted to men? It's still an attraction one way or the other.


Lara doesn't need it.


Oh come ON now, of course she needs it. We ALL do. I don't mean romance either in that lovey dovey Disney sense either. Doesn't have to be a formal relationship. Just some form of connection with another person, weather that's intimate, physical, emotional, carnal, or any combination thereof.

To accept the supernatural elements of a TR story takes suspension of disbelief. But to actually believe that a young healthy woman is devoid of feelings an needs, or that she never experiences attraction... that's just foolish naivete. :whistle:

We all get an itch that needs to be scratched ;) :naughty:




now about the clothing what AA said:
like i have mentioned a page back, she has to fix and/or even find something to cover her self once her clothing is worn off. i also dont want her to carry lots of clothing with her. doesnt matter if being realistic or not. it would just add more to survival that way. the changing clothing part in the last TR was all nice but the thing was, that they were DLCs and didnt take any damage as her default clothing. plus, you had to find a campfire first to do this. but even if her default clothing for torn, there were plenty of things around she could have used to fix her clothing or even cover her self.

the river crossing part i have mentioned that she should remove her clothing so that they stay dry would be a very vital survival part.
what lara can carry with her is a second pair of clothing like a protective suit if she has to enter a very cold or hot area. but then the player should consider changing back to laras normal clothing (once out of the nasty area of course) not to wear it off as well.
this alone can create some tension that you have to be careful where you go and what you do.

That reminds me of something I forgot to mention before, about having to fashion makeshift clothing to replace outfits damaged beyond repair; how that would make an additional use of the deer in the game, as both food and survival resources.

Plus, if they got dirty she'd have to wash them by a pool, not to mention needing to clean herself up by a waterfall :whistle:

Jurre
25th Aug 2014, 15:44
You see, that's where I think you take the way people identify with a character all wrong. It doesn't have to be a sharing of identical interests or personality traits.
Well of course the favourite movie is a simple example, but I don't see a reason to feel so optimistic about the community (and the reason that matters of course is because Crystal D will try to please the community)

I mean look how much ruckus it caused when Lara's face in the HD was minutely altered. That's just one example of how much people regard Lara to be their character and don't accept alterations.

You and I may be open to change in that regard but I don't feel that that is the case for most of the people here.

d1n0_xD
25th Aug 2014, 16:05
Oh, I'm pretty sure even optional stuff will piss off some people, it's in their nature. Bioware has romanceable characters. For some, they are a nice addition to the experience. For other, they are a must, and won't buy the game if they can't romance someone. (?!?) And others get offended that there is a gay character that can be romanced, even tho they absolutely don't even have to talk to him, much less romance him.
People always find a reason to complain, just because a feature exists. They feel entitled that a game should be as they want it to be and nothing else. People complained about the Survival Instinct, even tho they knew it was button-triggered, and thus optional. Can you imagine the outrage for something bigger? And it makes me sad.

Elliot Kane
25th Aug 2014, 16:31
I think most TR fans are up for the game to evolve, but evolve means 'build on what's there' rather than 'something totally new'.

It's why I'm suggesting deepening what's already there rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, as it were.

Personally, I have never been in favour of Lara having a romance. I see her as Artemis, and prefer her that way. So I would never use romance options myself. But, I think it might be an idea to have them in for those who do want them.

Of course that would add complication, but it's the only possible way to put romance in at all without 90% of the fanbase combusting, IMO.

EDIT: Though I do agree with D1no's point that some fans do complain at having options they don't have to take, I think those are the type of fans who will complain at any darn thing, so pleasing them is impossible, anyway.

Driber
25th Aug 2014, 16:46
only because we have mass effect for these "optional" romance, doesnt mean its only good for these games.

I am not disagreeing with that. But similar to that notion, my argument is this: just because it worked in a game like ME, doesn't mean it's necessarily good for any other game.


not to sound like a stubborn jerk but can you give an explanation why "optional" [would not necessarily work]? why should that piss of fans? if it would be forced, i can fully understand that but optional? i must be really missing something here to comprehend that. :scratch:

I had to fix your quote to make it true to what I actually said.

Oh no, I don't think you sound like a jerk at all :)

And I'm happy to elaborate why I think that "optional" is not the holy grail that some people make it out to be. Are you ready? This is gonna be a long one (and crude here and there).


Reason #1: Execution.

The popular mantra we hear all the time is "if done well, it could really work". Yeah, no ****, Sherlock. IF done well, ANYTHING *could* be good. This is not really an argument as it is empty platitude. We ALL want EVERYTHING do be "done well". The thing is that doing something well is subjective. One may say "I really like the loads of action in TR9; it was a lot more exciting than any of the previous games; they really did it well" whereas the next person may say "ugh, there was way too much action in TR9; the puzzle/combat ratio was very unbalanced; they really didn't do it well".

So one person's idea of "good" execution may vastly differ from another person's idea of "good" execution. With that said, it's likely going to be very easy to botch it in the eyes of a large group of people. We've already seen people complain about the plot/characters in TR9; people used terms such as "boring", "unimaginative", "flat characters", "token characters", "laughable dialogue", etc etc.

And this was without romance elements. Now imagine TR for the first time in its history dabbling with romance elements, and the game ending up with what some people will call "boring", "unimaginative", "flat characters", "token characters", "laughable dialogue", etc etc.

The mistake you guys are making is that just because something might be optional, doesn't mean it will be any good. Who knows, we might just end up with a totally cheesy game that will go down in the history of TR as the biggest flop since AoD. Now, you may say "well I trust the devs to do it right" or "but it would be better than no romance elements at all", but to those kinds of admittances of the high level of desperation you want to pair off Lara to someone I can only shake head to.


Reason #2: Dev Resources

Turning TR into a Mass Effect type of RPG game is going to cost money and dev time. You can't get around that. It means SE has to invest more money into a completely new concept (for this series) that has not even proven itself to be successful. So that's already a big risk from the publisher's POV; a publisher who seems to be in financial woes and a publisher who seems to be focusing more and more on the mobile game market and seems to more and more view tripple A console games as a risk.

If SE doesn't want to invest extra into turning TR into an RPG, then the dev costs are going to have to come from somewhere else. That may mean that the more work is done to do this RPG stuff, the less work can be put into -- what arguably most people would consider to be -- more important things like tombs, tombs, and tombs; UI optimization; voice acting; motion capture, etc.

Now, some may rebut to this, saying "well you're just selfish then". Alright, fine, I'm selfish for caring more about gameplay etc than about romance options. There, I'm guilty of being selfish. So what?

Or some may rebut to this, saying "well, there are other things that are even less important than gameplay and still get made, such as that useless MP stuff in TR9". Alright, so you think MP is useless - go advocate against MP in your own thread and stop dangling a red herring in front of my face in this discussion :p

Then there is also the argument to be made that a large chunk of the game contents will never be used by a good chunk of people, which would be a waste of dev time.


Reason #3: Ewww, Gay Cooties.

If CD is going to include RPG style romancing options, they better include gay options as well if they want to remain politically correct. This in turn is sure to cause a ****storm of controversy. You thought the backlash to the gay romancing options in a relatively new franchise like ME was bad? Try doing it with a 16+ year old established straight* character who has never been romanced in a TR game in the entire history of the series.

*This post (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1977772&postcount=1178) says it all. You want to claim ambiguity, or interpret Lara as gay just because she holds hands with her best friend Sam? Knock yourself out, but IMVHO you're fooling yourself with wishful thinking. No offense.

Now, as a supporter of gay rights (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=141331), I have nothing but disdain for those who get all up in arms about gay characters in videogames and who spew religious hatred towards fellow human beings just for the sake of their sexual orientation. So you won't see me joining in with any rage if Lara was made gay. However, I do tend to live in the real world, and like it or not, we have to deal with the real world consequences of possible gay romance options in a TR game. Do I like the fact that it would ignite a ****storm? No. Would I prefer to avoid it by simply not going there at all? Hell yeah. TR is one of is my favorite games, and therefore I'm a bit protective of it. Especially since the franchise has been on shaky grounds numerous times during its history.


Reason #4: Hypocrisy?

For anyone making the argument "if it's optional, it won't bother anyone", I would like to know if they are okay with all of the following optional scenarios in a TR game:

1) Lara being nude (menu option nudity ON/OFF)

2) Giving the player control over Lara's breast size (menu slider bar to make her as flat as board or as big as Lolo Ferrari)

3) Wide range of romancing options, including pairing off Lara with men, women, children (pedophilia), 'Vlad the rapist', etc.

4) Optional rape scene. And no, I'm not talking about the "rape" some people think happened in TR9, but an actual, full-on, violent, tearing off clothes, rape scene.

5) Sex scenes. Depending on how you romance Lara, she will end up getting hot and heavy with some biker guy who has real rough sex with her and she screams her lungs out. Clips of this will be uploaded and it will be all over the interwebs but not as a third party mod, but as something CD officially made as an option in the official game.

6) Outfits galore. Players will be able to dress up Lara any way they please, just like a Barbie doll. It will not be restricted to a few basic outfits, but anything ranging from fully dressed up military clothes to butt floss bikinis to BDSM latex outfits (and complimentary masks; after all, we don't know what Lara really gets up to in the privacy of her bedroom, right...?).

7) Suicide themes and substance abuse. Lara is turned into an emo girl and the player gets the option either drink a full bottle of tequila to numb her mental pain, or to cut herself with a razor blade, or to inject herself with meth.

My guess is that there will be very few people who will be okay with all of the above, despite everything being fully optional.


Reason #5: Lore Inconsistencies

For better or worse, Lara is what the devs say she is. Lara looks the way the dev say she looks.

We are already seeing so much bickering in the TR community about how Lara should be and how she should look like. A common argument I hear is "well, just give players full control over Lara's actions / Lara's looks, and then there would be no more bickering, because then people will just create the Lara they would like to see and everyone will be happy". NO! I do not believe this for one second. If anything, I fear that this will only increase the bickering. After all, when fans are used to (literally) shaping Lara with every game, they will only feel more strongly about how their Lara is. Which brings me to my next point...


Reason #6: Fan Entitlement.

Fans who shape their Lara into their own image (by adjusting her looks with slider bars and all that jazz, and with romancing her a certain way, etc) it will perpetuate and worsen their sense of entitlement. For example, people who continuously ship Lara with another woman will eventually just complain to the devs "just make it official lore already!", or people who continuously place their breast slider bars to the max will just feel more empowered to demand "TR1 promotional Lara back!!!".

You know the saying, "Give them an inch..."

Again, for better or for worse, it's the devs who determine how Lara looks and who she is. I think it should stay that way, for consistency sake in the very least.

The series has already seen so many different versions of Lara, and one of the number 1 complaints we hear in the official wishlists is "KEEP LARA'S LOOKS THE SAME!". Do we really on top of that want to split Lara's character even more?

My god, poor Lara will end up having MPD galore! :D


Reason #7: Fans Are Fickle.

Yep, you read that correct, fans are fickle. How many times have we seen fans totally embracing an idea one day, and completely hating it the next. Even right here in this discussion I see people who are advocating romance options who are known for doing 180's on some issues that they said they were convinced they are correct on before.

So even those who right now believe that romance options are a wonderful thing for a TR game may end up regretting advocating for it if CD indeed implements it and it turns out it isn't what they pictures it in their heads.

d1n0_xD
25th Aug 2014, 17:02
Yeah, we strayed too much into the impossible, whenever we try to discuss RPG elements, romancing comes to mind. Can we discuss about thing that actually matter to TR, like tombs, exploration and combat? Those thing are where the game could benefit from some RPG elements. I would love to know what you guys think of my idea of upgrading your guns or special weapons with different kinds of elemental damage, or other stat bonuses or buffs :)

Driber
25th Aug 2014, 17:06
Oh come ON now, of course she needs it. We ALL do. I don't mean romance either in that lovey dovey Disney sense either. Doesn't have to be a formal relationship. Just some form of connection with another person, weather that's intimate, physical, emotional, carnal, or any combination thereof.

As usual, you are diluting the romance topic. When you include everything from carnal lust to mere emotional support, it's no wonder that this debate never gets settled :p

Look, I'll explain it once more - no one is against Lara having meaningful relationships with friends who can emotionally support her whenever she goes through distress (which, in her line of work, inevitably comes around the corner more than your average couch potato :D) and with whom she can unwind after a long day killing off baddies, etc.

However, Lara (as in the fictional character) doesn't need a romantic relationship in her life at this moment in time; she is too busy raiding tombs and she doesn't feel like she can combine the two even if she had the opportunity to try.

This is the stuff coming from the devs themselves. Who are you to claim otherwise? :whistle:


To accept the supernatural elements of a TR story takes suspension of disbelief. But to actually believe that a young healthy woman is devoid of feelings an needs, or that she never experiences attraction... that's just foolish naivete. :whistle:

Oh come ON now, AA. I never claimed this. And you know better than that.

Please stop putting words into my mouth. We've had this exact same discussion already before, AA. If I didn't know any better, I would think you're intentionally trying to twist my words to ridicule me...

My argument is and always has been - Lara obviously has feelings, she is not a robot, but keep any romancing out of the games.


Oh, I'm pretty sure even optional stuff will piss off some people, it's in their nature. Bioware has romanceable characters. For some, they are a nice addition to the experience. For other, they are a must, and won't buy the game if they can't romance someone. (?!?) And others get offended that there is a gay character that can be romanced, even tho they absolutely don't even have to talk to him, much less romance him.
People always find a reason to complain, just because a feature exists. They feel entitled that a game should be as they want it to be and nothing else. People complained about the Survival Instinct, even tho they knew it was button-triggered, and thus optional. Can you imagine the outrage for something bigger? And it makes me sad.

I don't disagree, but while it may be sad, it's the reality we have to work with.

pomeranianpuppy
25th Aug 2014, 19:00
I'm against a full on RPG
In trying to be a dozen different things Lara would have no single identity, She'd be everyone and no one
Plus I want everything that happens to be canon not an option

I would like more choice in the way of hairstyles and outfits though-But I'm not bloody paying extra for it

Weemanply109
25th Aug 2014, 21:01
I would like more choice in the way of hairstyles and outfits though-But I'm not bloody paying extra for it

Crystal will want you to, though. :p

d1n0_xD
25th Aug 2014, 22:39
I think we can all agree that SOME RPG elements regarding combat and exploration would be welcome and good for the franchise. So, RPG elements regarding gameplay (combat, exploration, diferent weapons and types of damage, multiple paths and many stuff to find) and not regarding story (multiple endings, romance options etc.), right?

Driber
25th Aug 2014, 22:48
I can agree to that :)

Error96_
26th Aug 2014, 02:11
I think so far the most customisable TR game was Legend with it's vast array of outfits and actually that side of it worked incredibly well. Put Lara in plain functional clothes like in TR(2013) and I would never think that is good. I'm looking for outfits with way more style, attitude and sexiness but I know not every fan wants that. I think it's great to give more choice to the gamer but relationships and elements that significantly change the story's ending become impossible to build the next game of the back off. The idea of kill or spare/ trust or don't trust and then a short term different response from other characters would be good.

I never liked regen health as it prompts bullet sponge and hide combat tactics. Some form of reintegrating medi packs for full heal would be nice. A better inventory system more like say TR1-6 or RE4 or RE5 would be so much better. Something where you can see what guns and ammo you have and possibly even combine weapon parts like in TRLR.

Metalrocks
26th Aug 2014, 02:13
ok, long explanation indeed. mine will be as long as well.
here we go. :)

ok, to point 1:
so in other words; you cant please everyone. i think this is very well known. people already complained about other things we have in TR like lara crying, being scared, etc.
even for the ME franchise when they have made changes people still had problems with it. like the boring planet scanning in ME2. it was optional, just if you dont have the resources, your crew dies.

but i do agree with the point that putting trust or faith in to the developers is not the best thing to do.

point 2:
ehm, didnt CD already took the risk by making lara scared and helpless and making TR even 18+?

at times you have to take risks. just look at thous indie developers. for some its their very first game and either they are being successful or not but they took the risk. thats what AAA rarely do. they keep sticking to the same formula that worked the first time or for the last few games. but in the end, people do want some changes.
i can also say that valve should have never made freeman partner up with alyx. but look what happened: HL2 epi 2 turned out to be the best HL title ever, seen by a lot of people and they liked having alyx with freeman. and before that freeman was always alone. sure, some people didnt like it but the devs took the risk.
hell, even sanctum 2 had huge changes for the better or the worse compared to the first game. and thats just a indie developer.
you can die, limited amount of building turrets, some time limits between waves, only 2 guns for each character.
some people hated it, some loved it. the devs took the risk and it turned out to be doing well.

AAA are just too money focused and are afraid of changes. thats why TR failed throughout the series because it was practically the same whit some upgrades. but now look how successful this TR turned out to be and they did a lot of changes. for the better or the worse. but it was a success.

look, we have a thread about RPG elements. so far i didnt read from anyone that TR should be a full RPG. just that it should have some RPG elements. this proofs that people do want some changes for the franchise. even romance is an option a bunch of people want. regardless if lara is with a man or a woman. especially sam.

point 3:
well, this cant be helped. CD knows just too well that a lot of people want lara and sam. but as i have pointed out above; some people like to see it happen.
i do understand your view and from others that they dont want to see TR fail again because of this. but i have to point out to ME3 with its optional gay part. people complained, and sure, bioware got a ****storm for it and yet, the game did well, even with its worst ending in gaming history.

you cant please everyone. some are outraged about it, some are neutral, some you can say, are being pragmatic about it.

point 4:
ok, i think you over react a bit with these options. i do see the point you are making here though but here is why:
in dragon age and mass effect you dont have them and you really have a lot of freedom what your character should do. but, lara is a fixed character. just like riddick. you have options but doesnt matter what you do, its still riddick. and you cant make any changes on him what so ever.
also, now that im playing the witcher 2, you cant customize geralt either, besides changing his weaponry and armory, and his character is pretty much the same, even if you have the option to choose if you should be nice or a jerk.


point 5 and 6:
everyone has their view on every character they play. i personally dont want to be able to change laras entire look either. choosing different hairstyle would be nice though. changing clothing as we had before is all fine too and i think no one here has a problem with that. but as i have mentioned before, some choices that does not deflect from laras actual character. and romance was never really a case in any TR title before since her sexuality has been kept ambiguous. so giving the player to choice to exploit this would be interesting regardless.

point 7:
true. but as i have pointed out for point 1; you cant please everyone.


ok, i hope i didnt miss anything. but i guess you can say im stubborn as well.

Freya_Clemons
26th Aug 2014, 02:29
Don't criticize just because I'm lost, but:

What does RPG mean?


or else, I'll look at you like this: http://s13.postimg.org/wd11uyr07/avatar53113_6_gif.jpg :p

AdobeArtist
26th Aug 2014, 03:40
It's why I'm suggesting deepening what's already there rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, as it were.

That's how I see it though. Adding a love interest (be that serious or casual encounter) is just that, deepening Lara's character growth, by showing more of Lara's personality traits, all this in addition to her adventurous qualities - not changing that aspect of her :)



Personally, I have never been in favour of Lara having a romance. I see her as Artemis, and prefer her that way. So I would never use romance options myself. But, I think it might be an idea to have them in for those who do want them.


You've brought up this platform before, comparing Lara to either Artemis or Aphrodite. But why do you take it to such extremes; that Lara must either be a "pure virgin" (Artemis) or an oversexed nympho (Aphrodite)?

Surely there isn't some space for a middle ground? Like where Lara can be focused on her exploits and career goals, but still once in a while, when the right person and encounter presents itself, she can... give in to temptation? ;) :naughty: Is it so impossible to consider that she'd have such strong attraction that she might actually want a passionate experience for her own needs? :whistle:

I mean an occasional diversion doesn't make her (or anyone for that matter) any less committed to her career pursuits.

Oh and if you really knew your Greek lore, you'd know that even the virgin Artemis had strong feelings to another ;) :whistle:




My argument is and always has been - Lara obviously has feelings, she is not a robot, but keep any romancing out of the games.


If we're in agreement that Lara has feelings, why avoid it as an important part of her character development? This isn't something to just be put on the shelf.


Don't criticize just because I'm lost, but:

What does RPG mean?


Aside from the literal explanation that it's the genre classification of games as Role Playing Game, there are deeper criteria to distinguish it from other genres of games.

Now most people rely solely on the mechanics; stats, number crunching, leveling, character classes and skill trees. As well as other features like inventory, gearing and looting.

But mechanics alone doesn't encapsulate the gameplay experience that truly immerses the player. After all, lots of games have a method of leveling up, such as Call of Duty and Star Wars the Force Unleashed. But leveling up there makes neither an RPG.

The way I've always seen it, what separates role playing a character from merely controlling a character, is when the player defines the role. The character should be a vessel in which the player expresses themselves through that character in the world they explore. In other words, the character becomes an extension of the player them self.

This leads to another integral component of RPGs, when the player takes on the role of the character, they have the freedom to really interact with the world around them. This is far deeper than merely traversing through the world, as is the case with typical action games, where the levels are merely a backdrop one passes through while killing enemies.

To interact is to explore, encounter the people and get involved in complex exchanges, learning the history of the people and the world, making discoveries where the gameplay has the player actually involved with the story, not merely passively observing it as it unfolds.

It's the personalized expression and interaction that role playing is really about.

Freya_Clemons
26th Aug 2014, 03:54
Got it! Thanks adobeARTIST

I will NOT look at you like this: http://s13.postimg.org/wd11uyr07/avatar53113_6_gif.jpg

:D

Elliot Kane
26th Aug 2014, 03:57
I think we can all agree that SOME RPG elements regarding combat and exploration would be welcome and good for the franchise. So, RPG elements regarding gameplay (combat, exploration, diferent weapons and types of damage, multiple paths and many stuff to find) and not regarding story (multiple endings, romance options etc.), right?

I think we could all agree on that much, yes. I know I do! It's the added extras that create the havoc :D


That's how I see it though. Adding a love interest (be that serious or casual encounter) is just that, deepening Lara's character growth, by showing more of Lara's personality traits, all this in addition to her adventurous qualities - not changing that aspect of her :)

It's how you see it, Adobe, but as you well know by now, I disagree. We've both explained our positions on this one at length.


You've brought up this platform before, comparing Lara to either Artemis or Aphrodite. But why do you take it to such extremes; that Lara must either be a "pure virgin" (Artemis) or an oversexed nympho (Aphrodite)?

Lara is a modern day goddess, or hadn't you noticed? She is an icon created as an exemplar and she tends to the same sort of behavioural extremes. In the same way as a Superhero, Lara is intended to be human by the loosest definition only. They are larger than life characters who embody certain things. Lara never gives up, never fails, and she overcomes completely insurmountable odds as a matter of routine. Whether you see her as the spirit of adventure or the indefatigable nature of the human spirit, she exists on a level beyond the merely human.

Honestly, though, Adobe, we've been over this so many times that we both know we're not going to agree. I see Lara as someone who is so completely focused on her career that she has no time or inclination for the pursuit of anything else.

I see her as being above casual encounters, you're just desperate to get her laid any way you can! :D

We are never going to agree.

AdobeArtist
26th Aug 2014, 04:05
I see her as being above casual encounters, you're just desperate to get her laid any way you can! :D



And you're just selfishly depriving her of the simple pleasures of life, and some beneficial stress relief. Seems I make a far better wingman than you :p

Oh btw, are we now gonna see some new Lara/Doctor comics, featuring the new 12th Doctor? ;) :wave:

Elliot Kane
26th Aug 2014, 04:29
And you're just selfishly depriving her of the simple pleasures of life, and some beneficial stress relief. Seems I make a far better wingman than you :p

Oh btw, are we now gonna see some new Lara/Doctor comics, featuring the new 12th Doctor? ;) :wave:

I'd need a model for him, and I don't even know if I like him, yet, let alone if I can write him anywhere near convincingly.

Plus, as you are oh-so-subtly reminding me, I do have an incomplete story to finish. The pieces are swirling around in my head. As soon as they come together properly in a way I can actually create, I will continue.

(For those who are wondering what Adobe & I are talking about, click my signature banner :))

Driber
26th Aug 2014, 09:46
Sorry, Metal, but I don't accept your rebuttal. All I hear are very weak arguments like "can't please everyone" and "sometimes you just need to take a risk" and "look at game XYZ how they did it" and "can't be helped", etc. And empty platitudes like "people want change" (again - no ****, Sherlock)

And this is not good enough. I laid out some solid reasons and you're basically just waving them off as irrelevant. If you don't even take the points (and thus the fan's wishes) seriously, I don't think we'll come to an agreement, so we'll just have to move on.

I'll just quickly respond to a couple of lines...



but in the end, people do want some changes.

Of course they do. Myself included. But not the kind of change you're proposing.


i can also say that valve should have never made freeman partner up with alyx. but look what happened: HL2 epi 2 turned out to be the best HL title ever, seen by a lot of people and they liked having alyx with freeman. and before that freeman was always alone. sure, some people didnt like it but the devs took the risk.

I will say this one more time: I do not care what "worked" in some completely different game with a completely different fanbase. It has no bearing on this situation.


AAA are just too money focused and are afraid of changes.

I couldn't disagree more. The entire reboot was a big risk. The xbox deal was a massive risk. I can't believe after all of this we have still people out there like you writing BS blanket statements about CD "being afraid of change/risk". Just stop it already, you're only making yourself look foolish every single time you make this nonsense claim.


look, we have a thread about RPG elements. so far i didnt read from anyone that TR should be a full RPG. just that it should have some RPG elements. this proofs that people do want some changes for the franchise.

Look, we have a thread where people are heavily divided on romancing options (like usual). Even within the pro-romancing camp there is struggle on how to go about it.

The only thing that this "proofs" is that fans will be fans. Do not try to speak on behalf of the entire fandom with empty platitude "the fans want some change". That means nothing.


even romance is an option a bunch of people want.

There have always been a bunch of people who want romance. Remember Kurtis? I am sooooo glad the devs didn't listen to those bunch of people and paired off Lara with Kurtis :whistle:


CD knows just too well that a lot of people want lara and sam.

CD knows just too well that the vast majority do NOT want Lara x Sam. And they made it perfectly clear in the official Q&A's that they are not going to go there.


ok, i think you over react a bit with these options.

No, I am not. I think you are too blind to see the reality of today's uber politically correct climate and how much of an impact such options would have.


but as i have mentioned before, some choices that does not deflect from laras actual character.

I can't think of many things that impacts a person's character than a freaking romantic relationship :nut:


her sexuality has been kept ambiguous.

Wrong.


ok, i hope i didnt miss anything. but i guess you can say im stubborn as well.

I already knew you were stubborn, yes. But now I also think you've got blinders on and that you are quite indifferent when it comes to fans' dismay if it goes against your personal agenda.

Driber
26th Aug 2014, 10:04
If we're in agreement that Lara has feelings, why avoid it as an important part of her character development?

Because it isn't.


This isn't something to just be put on the shelf.

No one is putting it on the shelf. It has been on the shelve for 16+ years. In fact, there is no shelf :p


I think we could all agree on that much, yes. I know I do! It's the added extras that create the havoc :D

:thumb:


Lara is a modern day goddess, or hadn't you noticed? She is an icon created as an exemplar and she tends to the same sort of behavioural extremes. In the same way as a Superhero, Lara is intended to be human by the loosest definition only. They are larger than life characters who embody certain things. Lara never gives up, never fails, and she overcomes completely insurmountable odds as a matter of routine. Whether you see her as the spirit of adventure or the indefatigable nature of the human spirit, she exists on a level beyond the merely human.

Honestly, though, Adobe, we've been over this so many times that we both know we're not going to agree. I see Lara as someone who is so completely focused on her career that she has no time or inclination for the pursuit of anything else.

Well said :thumb:


I see her as being above casual encounters, you're just desperate to get her laid any way you can! :D

Yup! Like I said in my earlier post - some people are just desperately trying to vicariously get into Lara's pants :rasp:


And you're just selfishly depriving her of the simple pleasures of life

She's not real. Ergo, it is not selfish ;)

a_big_house
26th Aug 2014, 11:31
OH, you DID NOT just double post!

*snaps fingers*

Driber
26th Aug 2014, 11:34
http://driber.net/os/penguins-of-madagascar_skipper_you-didnt-see-anything.png

Metalrocks
26th Aug 2014, 12:56
lol, looks like it we cant come to an agreement. but well, at least we both explained out reasons. well, lets move on then.
thanks anyway for reading my long text. :D

Elliot Kane
26th Aug 2014, 13:30
I honestly think that if TR went permanently XBox exclusive, it would cause less of a storm in the fanbase than adding romance.

Putting in choices MIGHT be possible without setting off a major firestorm, but anything scripted would trigger the fan rage to end all fan rages. Quite apart from anything else, no-one could possibly be good enough for 'our' Lara, could they?

***

Also, time to resurrect this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v41/ElliotKane/LaraInv.jpg~original

Driber
26th Aug 2014, 20:18
Permanent xbox exclusive or romance? Wow, now that might be a tough choice :lol:

And yes, you are quite right; it would be virtually impossible to find someone for Lara that would come even close to match her, lol.


lol, looks like it we cant come to an agreement. but well, at least we both explained out reasons. well, lets move on then.
thanks anyway for reading my long text. :D

Right, moving on :)

And apologies for the crudeness in those two responses, Rowan :flowers:

AdobeArtist
26th Aug 2014, 22:26
And yes, you are quite right; it would be virtually impossible to find someone for Lara that would come even close to match her, lol.


Not impossible at all, because I already found the perfect match for Lara. Batman :D

Just look at how much they have in common, giving them much they can relate to each other;

* coming from wealthy and prestigious families
* tragic circumstances surrounding their parents
* survival skills
* cool outfits (hopefully in the next game Lara gets more style)
* butlers who are their most trusted confidantes (OK, wondering if new Lara will reunite with Winston at some point)

And really I think Batman is the only one man enough to handle a woman like Lara :naughty::naughty::naughty:

Lord Martok
26th Aug 2014, 22:32
And really I think Batman is the only one man enough to handle a woman like Lara :naughty::naughty::naughty:

I dunno....I think Mort from Family Guy might actually have a shot. LOL!

Thetford
26th Aug 2014, 22:36
Not impossible at all, because I already found the perfect match for Lara. Batman :D

Just look at how much they have in common, giving them much they can relate to each other;

* coming from wealthy and prestigious families
* tragic circumstances surrounding their parents
* survival skills
* cool outfits (hopefully in the next game Lara gets more style)
* butlers who are their most trusted confidantes (OK, wondering if new Lara will reunite with Winston at some point)

And really I think Batman is the only one man enough to handle a woman like Lara :naughty::naughty::naughty:

Harry Potter also fulfils those criteria, plus relic hunting too.

Driber
26th Aug 2014, 22:36
Not impossible at all, because I already found the perfect match for Lara. Batman

http://driber.net/os/lara-no.png

AdobeArtist
26th Aug 2014, 23:34
Harry Potter also fulfils those criteria, plus relic hunting too.

Way too young, and nowhere near man enough :p


http://driber.net/os/lara-no.png

her lips may say "no", but her body says "yes, yes, yeeeess, YEEESSSSS" :whistle: :naughty::naughty:

Thetford
26th Aug 2014, 23:44
Way too young, and nowhere near man enough :p


Given that he was born in the 80s, he is actually older than the new Lara.

BridgetFisher
27th Aug 2014, 00:24
http://driber.net/os/lara-no.png

I would like the team who made Hitman Go, to work on a Tomb Raider RPG. They are very talented in creating new ways to enjoy great games we all have come to know and love. They did it very well keeping the main focus on FUN...

Id be very excited for a Tomb Raider RPG. Maybe then we can get rid of the people who work on Tomb Raider and refuse to let us change her hairstyle, their so stubborn about that. Anyone who hates on player choice and customization really shouldnt be in the gaming industry if they arent thinking of the people who are going to be playing the games choosing instead to think of forcing people to do what they want for no other reason than just because... :P

Metalrocks
27th Aug 2014, 01:30
Permanent xbox exclusive or romance? Wow, now that might be a tough choice :lol:

And yes, you are quite right; it would be virtually impossible to find someone for Lara that would come even close to match her, lol.



Right, moving on :)

And apologies for the crudeness in those two responses, Rowan :flowers:

no problem.

@AA
have to agree with the others. NO.

Elliot Kane
27th Aug 2014, 02:57
Not impossible at all, because I already found the perfect match for Lara. Batman :D

Just look at how much they have in common, giving them much they can relate to each other;

* coming from wealthy and prestigious families
* tragic circumstances surrounding their parents
* survival skills
* cool outfits (hopefully in the next game Lara gets more style)
* butlers who are their most trusted confidantes (OK, wondering if new Lara will reunite with Winston at some point)

And really I think Batman is the only one man enough to handle a woman like Lara :naughty::naughty::naughty:

Well, apart from the whole 'Batman never kills; Lara is a stone cold killer and he would want to arrest her on sight' thing, of course...

I don't think the best relationships are made by being absolute ethical polar opposites... :P

Driber
27th Aug 2014, 08:31
her lips may say "no", but her body says "yes, yes, yeeeess, YEEESSSSS" :whistle: :naughty::naughty:

http://driber.net/os/what-part-of-no-dont-you-understand.jpg

Lord Martok
27th Aug 2014, 10:09
^That is one of the cutest pics I have ever seen!...even if it is photoshopped. :)


I can envision other captions:


"Whatchu talkin' 'bout, Willis?!"
"We di'n't lan' awn Plymouth Rock! Plymouth Rock lan' awn us!"
"Cat with specs reading a newspaper: your argument is invalid!"
"Judging you!"

:)

Note: dialectic Not intended to offend anyone's ethnicity or socio-political sensibilities.

Driber
27th Aug 2014, 13:08
Haha yes you're right, the "judging you" caption would work perfect there :D

Tihocan
31st Aug 2014, 02:17
IMO, you can't really say "Lara Croft: The RPG". It will never be. Not even AoD was "rpg". I think even the trope "RPG elements" is invalid - you add something that was once popular to real role playing games and you have RPG elements?

I guess with that logic now CoD, Battlefield and the like have rpg elements because you can alter your kit and character.

If you want Lara Croft the RPG the options need to be pervasive and meaningful - not "oh, I chose that response so they said something slightly different".

Weemanply109
31st Aug 2014, 02:49
her lips may say "no", but her body says "yes, yes, yeeeess, YEEESSSSS" :whistle: :naughty::naughty:

Paws off our Lara!

https://d3dsacqprgcsqh.cloudfront.net/photo/aDwRgLK_460sa_v1.gif

:rasp:

AdobeArtist
31st Aug 2014, 04:14
IMO, you can't really say "Lara Croft: The RPG". It will never be. Not even AoD was "rpg". I think even the trope "RPG elements" is invalid - you add something that was once popular to real role playing games and you have RPG elements?

I guess with that logic now CoD, Battlefield and the like have rpg elements because you can alter your kit and character.

If you want Lara Croft the RPG the options need to be pervasive and meaningful - not "oh, I chose that response so they said something slightly different".

I was saying very much the same thing.




Aside from the literal explanation that it's the genre classification of games as Role Playing Game, there are deeper criteria to distinguish it from other genres of games.

Now most people rely solely on the mechanics; stats, number crunching, leveling, character classes and skill trees. As well as other features like inventory, gearing and looting.

But mechanics alone doesn't encapsulate the gameplay experience that truly immerses the player. After all, lots of games have a method of leveling up, such as Call of Duty and Star Wars the Force Unleashed. But leveling up there makes neither an RPG.

The way I've always seen it, what separates role playing a character from merely controlling a character, is when the player defines the role. The character should be a vessel in which the player expresses themselves through that character in the world they explore. In other words, the character becomes an extension of the player them self.

This leads to another integral component of RPGs, when the player takes on the role of the character, they have the freedom to really interact with the world around them. This is far deeper than merely traversing through the world, as is the case with typical action games, where the levels are merely a backdrop one passes through while killing enemies.

To interact is to explore, encounter the people and get involved in complex exchanges, learning the history of the people and the world, making discoveries where the gameplay has the player actually involved with the story, not merely passively observing it as it unfolds.

It's the personalized expression and interaction that role playing is really about.

In the same comparison to COD, TR2013 with it's skill leveling didn't make the game an RPG. Lara is a pre-scripted character in a fixed story, not an extension of the player them self. There is no actual role playing here, which is the core meaning to the abbreviation of the genre.

Tihocan
31st Aug 2014, 07:34
I was saying very much the same thing...There is no actual role playing here, which is the core meaning to the abbreviation of the genre.

Ah yes, so you were. +1.

I actually started writing a response in the vein of "omg lyk Mass Effect mets Skyrim in a modun seting blargleargleargle" because that would blow my socks off. I thought this was a "What if?" thread.

I'm totally fine with romance options. I'd pair her up with the Russian lady sniper, who was sent to kill her but instead becomes her ally in the fight against... wait, what were we talking about again? /fantasy

Elliot Kane
31st Aug 2014, 10:40
If you want Lara Croft the RPG the options need to be pervasive and meaningful - not "oh, I chose that response so they said something slightly different".

Indeed they do. Which is most certainly doable, IMO.

Every Lara game may have the same ending, but there could be so many ways for her to get there.

d1n0_xD
31st Aug 2014, 11:33
Yeah, that's why it's called RPG elements and not RPG. Call of Duty has RPG elements but isn't an RPG, it's an FPS. But, Borderlands (especially 2) is an FPS RPG :D

Tihocan
1st Sep 2014, 00:52
Indeed they do. Which is most certainly doable, IMO.

Every Lara game may have the same ending, but there could be so many ways for her to get there.

But then with that argument, Heavy Rain is an RPG.

I think the RPG focus is being able to significantly build your character into something that you want, and with that character make significant choices. But that's just me :)

Elliot Kane
1st Sep 2014, 08:42
But then with that argument, Heavy Rain is an RPG.

I think the RPG focus is being able to significantly build your character into something that you want, and with that character make significant choices. But that's just me :)

My opinion of what an RPG is is in the first post of this thread. I think we agree more than you may believe :)