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ShadowXOR
4th Aug 2014, 18:35
So despite being really excited for this game I only just finished it. This is kind of how I feel:

Deus Ex: 9.5
Invisible War: 6.5
Human Revolution: 8.0

This game was overall good but holy cow did they drop the ball on the story IMO. Wanted to see what others thought:

1. The conspiracies were small/weak/uninteresting.
2. There is zero closure. We never get to have a conversation with Megan, Pritchard, Sarif, etc. after the events of the game. We basically have no clue what happens to anyone or how they feel after all of the decisions Adam made.
3. The endings themselves are just generic philosophical fluff. In Deus Ex you got a cool quote, but you actually found out what happened to the world, not just 'what you told them/what you did' like in HR.
4. There is almost no story given about anyone in this game, such as the Tyrants. Oh check out these big bad bosses. Who are they? No idea.

Pretty disappointed. It was a Mass Effect 3 level of ending disappointment for me, but at least the Director's Cut ending of ME3 mostly fixed it, where as the Director's Cut ending of HR was unchanged. Not sure how there can be such an insane amount of text/dialogue in this game and they choose to save none of it for the ending.

"Here's what Adam did. Want to know how anyone reacted, or have any clue what happened in the world? Tough."

Blah.

CyberP
4th Aug 2014, 19:07
So despite being really excited for this game I only just finished it. This is kind of how I feel:

Deus Ex: 9.5
Invisible War: 6.5
Human Revolution: 8.0


Agreeable enough.


This game was overall good but holy cow did they drop the ball on the story IMO.

And gameplay, though it was at least engaging at times.

ShadowXOR
4th Aug 2014, 19:10
Agreeable enough.



And gameplay, though it was at least engaging at times.

The gameplay definitely could have used more variety, ala the original. I believe the reason this game lost that variety was the lack of skill points and missing some of the older features like swimming. All routes were a bit too predictable. Do you want to hack this, break a wall, or jump over the wall? All paths lead to the same place. The original just felt so much bigger with so many more options.

But damn, after Invisible War, this game at least felt like it was headed in the right direction.

Shralla
4th Aug 2014, 19:45
Haha, you pretty much nailed all the major story complaints in one go, and your scoring of the individual Deus Ex games more or less reflects my own opinion (except I would give the original a 10 because I'm a fanboy like that).

CyberP
4th Aug 2014, 19:47
Haha, you pretty much nailed all the major story complaints in one go, and your scoring of the individual Deus Ex games more or less reflects my own opinion (except I would give the original a 10 because I'm a fanboy like that).

:thumb: it's a ten regardless of it's many flaws.

ShadowXOR
4th Aug 2014, 20:57
I think one of my favorite parts of the original were the random items you could use as weapons like pepper spray, knives, fire extinguishers, etc. Made the world feel more alive. In HR I knew what the weapons were and knew for the most part I wouldn't be running into any surprises (like the Dragon's Tooth).

AdrianShephard
4th Aug 2014, 22:58
Deus Ex: 9.5
Invisible War: 6.5
Human Revolution: 8.0


Good ratings, but as Shralla said, I would give the original a 10 :).



Not sure how there can be such an insane amount of text/dialogue in this game and they choose to save none of it for the ending.

"Here's what Adam did. Want to know how anyone reacted, or have any clue what happened in the world? Tough."

Blah.

Pretty much. The text/emails/newspapers are all uninteresting and provide minimal foreshadowing or atmosphere so I stopped reading them about mid-way through the game (of course I still hacked the computers for the points). The newspapers in DX 1 would often foreshadow story elements or give you a clue of where you were going next; examples include newspapers mentioning the poison in the water and the martial law/unrest in Paris). From what I remember, HR had none of this. The endings were a slap in the face...at least the original had you accomplish some tasks to get an ending. Watching stock footage and hearing Adam praise himself isn't an ending; especially when you play the game as a mass murderer and then hearing Adam say "whenever possible, I exercised restraint" (or something similar).

Gameplay sucks. That's all I have to say on that matter.

BridgetFisher
5th Aug 2014, 18:16
Id like to see more crazy conspiracies in the next Deus Ex game the theme really works well with the cyber punkiness of a dark future. Hire someone with a tin foil hat or crazy ol Alex Jones to throw some info out there. hes always yelling about something.

ShadowXOR
7th Aug 2014, 19:34
I haven't played Deus Ex in ages and thinking about all the fantastic twists and turns like Paul being with the NSF, JC changing sides, finding out Manderley is evil, finding the Greys, VersaLife manufacturing the Gray Death, etc. were all fantastic. Pretty much the only two things I found notable in Human Revolution was the fact that your team didn't actually die, and that Sarif was actually sincere (I expected some big twist with him). Otherwise it was all just "yo so liek iznt augmntation bad M I RITE ADAM JASON?' and he's like.... 'iunno'. Then rinse and repeat some form of that all game with every character followed by no resolution.

The more I think about it the more disappointed I am. However I will say at least Human Revolution's story was boring, whereas Invisible War's story actively made me dislike characters I previously loved. I'll take neutral over negative any day but I hope they're striving for better than neutral. That's actually kind of the best way I can express my disappointment with Human Revolution's story. I feel like I played the game for 60+ hours and pretty much nothing happened.

AdrianShephard
7th Aug 2014, 19:41
True...as much as I hate HR's writing, I'll take it over Invisible War. Still don't know what happened with IW, as the original team was still in place. Damn consoles screwed the game I bet.

CyberP
7th Aug 2014, 20:09
True...as much as I had HR's writing, I'll take it over Invisible War. Still don't know what happened with IW, as the original team was still in place. Damn consoles screwed the game I bet.

Ion storm screwed the game, no one else.

BridgetFisher
8th Aug 2014, 02:31
As a player I didnt feel there was much of a story now that I think of it. The great environments made the game come to life for me. But yea the story was so weak it was non existant, maybe that is what they were going for? I enjoyed the game, the gameplay, and the great worlds that felt so unique to the universe due to their creative style, but I def didnt really notice the story very much beyond go here do this, go here do that, I knew what to do but never knew why too much and didnt care. I would like to see a good story in the next game if its possible, maybe these Deus Ex games arent supposed to be overly story driven?

AdrianShephard
8th Aug 2014, 02:39
maybe these Deus Ex games arent supposed to be overly story driven?

Under EM anything is possible. And when I mean anything, that doesn't include the good side of the spectrum.

WildcatPhoenix
8th Aug 2014, 15:51
I would like to see a good story in the next game if its possible, maybe these Deus Ex games arent supposed to be overly story driven?

One can debate the importance of gameplay vs. story/characterization, but Deus Ex has always been a story-driven franchise. The failures of Invisible War (and there are many) do not include a lack of focus on the story. Human Revolution is the first Deus Ex game where story has taken a backseat, and if it truly represents a trend for future titles in the franchise, I certainly will not be purchasing or playing any more of them.

Personally, I'd like to chalk DXHR's story weaknesses up to failure and/or incompetence rather than deliberate intent of the developers.

AdrianShephard
8th Aug 2014, 16:23
Personally, I'd like to chalk DXHR's story weaknesses up to failure and/or incompetence rather than deliberate intent of the developers.

I agree. I have a hard time believing someone as seasoned as Mary would pen a plot as crap as HR's. Just a bit more effort would go a long way.

Shralla
8th Aug 2014, 19:08
One can debate the importance of gameplay vs. story/characterization, but Deus Ex has always been a story-driven franchise.

This. A thousand times this. The fact that a new player coming into the Deus Ex franchise who plays Human Revolution might come away from it thinking that Deus Ex as a whole is not "overly story driven" is sad and worrisome for the future of the series. The way Bridget describes it sounds like how people talk about Elder Scrolls. "Well yeah the world was cool and I liked messing around but the main story was pretty forgettable."

Spyhopping
8th Aug 2014, 20:11
With HR it was the smaller moments that got me, and they all added up. I wasn't particularly excited about the main story arc with Megan, and the ending choices were disappointing, but it didn't reduce the effect of the smaller plot details. I loved the missing link and the mission with Brent Radford or whatever his name was- the guy with the gunshot wound who calls AJ a robot, and the rolling meals lady. Pretty much everything that went on in Hengsha was wonderful.

The original Deus Ex delivered more on the main story arc, and I could go on about it all day, but really I think HR may have topped DX with the smaller moments.

WildcatPhoenix
8th Aug 2014, 22:41
The original Deus Ex delivered more on the main story arc, and I could go on about it all day, but really I think HR may have topped DX with the smaller moments.

Let's just say I respectfully and vehemently disagree with you.

AdrianShephard
8th Aug 2014, 23:07
but really I think HR may have topped DX with the smaller moments.

Just made a thread sort of pertaining to this. With the amount of small nods DX gives to the player, I very strongly disagree with you.

EricaLeeV
8th Aug 2014, 23:11
I can't remember many small moments in HR. Assuming that means scenes, conversations, and the like.


I remember the chopper crash, the dialogue battles (but even then I don't really remember what they were going on about in most of them), and ....zombies plus the super weird boss at the end. But I would count that last bit as a negative memory. Oh wait, I did rather like it when AJ met his savior lady and the talk with the underground rogue military group.


But the original....I can go on and on about the original. No one wants that though, it'll be a big 'ole wall of text.

Spyhopping
8th Aug 2014, 23:45
Though certainly in less abundance, I do feel that the quality of the smaller moments were better in HR. The atmosphere was thicker, there was so much more detail in the environment, everything felt more alive. It even made walking down the steps in Hengsha for the first time one of these small, rich experiences that built up. This "small moment" thing I'm going on about is pretty loosely defined, but it's about the little picture, and experiencing the game in the moment. One of the golden ones in DX was when you see Paul standing at the 747 in the distance, and you have that cautious walk across the hangar knowing something is very off.

I've recently been seeing how the DX Revision folks have been getting on, and it looks fantastic. When I explored the original environments afterwards in vanilla DX though, they felt awfully empty and barren.

Still, HR is fresher in my mind, and I really do need to properly replay DX, it's been years. Hell it's been what, 13 years since my first playthrough of DX. Hard to think about an experience that far back with decent clarity, and it's the first playthrough that matters the most.

AdrianShephard
8th Aug 2014, 23:49
everything felt more alive.

We were playing very different games then, amigo. Mannequins that slide to the ground when they hear a gunshot isn't what I call alive. Couple that with the same lines every NPC repeats (an observation of your augs), and the game seems pretty dead to me. Hong Kong in DX, on the other hand, was miles more 'alive' than HR with all of the dynamic NPC interactions with you and other NPCs.

CyberP
8th Aug 2014, 23:54
Still, HR is fresher in my mind, and I really do need to properly replay DX, it's been years. Hell it's been what, 13 years since my first playthrough of DX. Hard to think about an experience that far back with decent clarity, and it's the first playthrough that matters the most.

Only one DX playthrough? You need to stop having a life, lady. :nut:

Seriously though, DX demanded an immediate replay from me. I was blown away by everything. The depth of the gameplay, writing, level design, NPC reactivity and so on. One playthrough just isn't enough, there's still so much more for you to discover.

Grab HDTP, grab New Vision and hop to it :p

Spyhopping
9th Aug 2014, 00:03
@ Adrian: I guess that those things just weren't deal breakers for me. DX has its fair share of weird NPC behaviour too you know.


Only one DX playthrough? You need to stop having a life, lady. :nut:

Seriously though, DX demanded an immediate replay from me. I was blown away by everything. The depth of the gameplay, writing, level design, NPC reactivity and so on. One playthrough just isn't enough, there's still so much more for you to discover.

Grab HDTP, grab New Vision and hop to it :p

Oh no no I have played DX many times through. That was 13 years since my first playthrough!

I'm due to go back to it anyway as it's been years, so I shall do just that. :P

FrankCSIS
9th Aug 2014, 00:04
When I explored the original environments afterwards in vanilla DX though, they felt awfully empty and barren.


and it's the first playthrough that matters the most.

Those two quotes go hand in hand. The first DX playthrough, for those who really liked it, feels so immersive you quickly get over the barren world. It's not just that graphics weren't so great back then, because the game was never acclaimed for its performance or its graphics, far from it. I think what happens is the empty world quickly becomes a canvas, and your mind fills out the empty space, as you try to cope with both the overwhelming gameplay and story possibilities. I haven't played the game a dozen times either. And when I think back on specific moments, in my memories, the world and levels are a lot more detailed than they truly were. It's always a bit of a shock if I just look at youtube vids.

So it's really hard to compare screenshots for screenshots and just say "well, HR feels more alive". If you navigate the worlds, yeah, probably. As you discover the experience for the first time, it's a whole other story.

But then I've always claimed older games like DX were more structured like books, as were their level of interactivity. It only makes sense the brain would react to it in a similar fashion.

CyberP
9th Aug 2014, 00:14
DX's levels were not barren as a rule. There's a major inconsistency in the level design/art direction. New York= barren. Hong Kong= detailed. Paris= barren, though one or two maps still impress. Various US locations in the final portion of the game= somewhere between barren and detailed.

I've added aesthetic detail to nearly all of the maps except most Hong Kong ones, those maps are lovely.

The barren-ness of New York obviously somewhat matches the theme, but often times there was just no excuse for a lack of detail. But hey, this is **** that comes last in favour of gameplay, writing and all the rest. Ion Storm had their priorities straight. Well, that's an excuse afterall, but there is a whopping 70+ maps in DX. This wouldn't have been possible to do in 2 years if they obsessed over graphic detail in a time where most games looked like crap by default.

AdrianShephard
10th Aug 2014, 00:53
Only one DX playthrough? You need to stop having a life, lady. :nut:

Seriously though, DX demanded an immediate replay from me. I was blown away by everything. The depth of the gameplay, writing, level design, NPC reactivity and so on. One playthrough just isn't enough, there's still so much more for you to discover.

Grab HDTP, grab New Vision and hop to it :p

:thumb:

I have played through DX at least 20 times, more like 25-26. I just found an old save at the Brooklyn Naval Yard and I'm going through it having a blast. So awesome hearing Daedalus come on the infolink at the most random times.

I replay the game at least twice a year, and probably won't stop until I've memorized all of the lines spoken (the only work worth the time spent). I'm getting damn close to that...

Berr
14th Aug 2014, 05:43
Apparently a minority on this here forum for DXHR, I actually enjoyed the story and endings.

The endings were quite vague as to what happened next, but I'm hoping for another outing in the immediately following time period, maybe even with Adam Jensen again, so I don't mind that. I enjoyed the philosophical tone of the endings too, I thought it suited the philosophical decision you/Jensen had to make at the end.

Though I agree I did find the back story on the Tyrants really weak. I've read the prequel book now though, and that features the Tyrants pretty heavily, so on return play-throughs I feel like I know who I'm shooting up pretty well! :D

AdrianShephard
14th Aug 2014, 05:52
Apparently a minority on this here forum for DXHR, I actually enjoyed the story and endings.

The endings were quite vague as to what happened next, but I'm hoping for another outing in the immediately following time period, maybe even with Adam Jensen again, so I don't mind that. I enjoyed the philosophical tone of the endings too, I thought it suited the philosophical decision you/Jensen had to make at the end.

Though I agree I did find the back story on the Tyrants really weak. I've read the prequel book now though, and that features the Tyrants pretty heavily, so on return play-throughs I feel like I know who I'm shooting up pretty well! :D

Normally philosophical discussions are fine in a deus ex game, but when you never have one during the entire course of the game and then all of the sudden you are presented with one, it feels out of place.

And DX4 better not have Jensen again. THE most unrelatable, weird, and awkward character I have ever played as. Would rather play as a robot than him because at least then EM has an excuse why their protagonist doesn't show any emotion in an otherwise overly emotional story.

CyberP
14th Aug 2014, 09:17
And DX4 better not have Jensen again. THE most unrelatable, weird, and awkward character I have ever played as. Would rather play as a robot than him because at least then EM has an excuse why their protagonist doesn't show any emotion in an otherwise overly emotional story.

Eh, I liked Jensen. Maybe I'm unrelatable, weird and awkward :scratch:

AdrianShephard
14th Aug 2014, 14:48
Eh, I liked Jensen. Maybe I'm unrelatable, weird and awkward :scratch:

There's no way you're as awkward as Jensen. In many of his conversations, he just starts looking around while the other person is talking.

And unless you are stuck in puberty limbo, you probably don't have that scratchy of a voice.

CyberP
14th Aug 2014, 14:52
There's no way you're as awkward as Jensen. In many of his conversations, he just starts looking around while the other person is talking.

I do this sometimes. I have my reasons :cool:

AdrianShephard
14th Aug 2014, 15:00
I do this sometimes. I have my reasons :cool:

Nah man you gotta make complete eye contact.

That's what I love about JC. He is a straight up cold killing machine that stares you right into the eye. None of the stupid arm crossing or randomly lookingly away from someone that's talking.

Weirdo CyberP

CyberP
14th Aug 2014, 15:07
No. It's situational. Sometimes you gotta be aware of your surroundings rather than playing eye games. Adam is wise to be checking given his situation.

AdrianShephard
14th Aug 2014, 15:17
No. It's situational. Sometimes you gotta be aware of your surroundings rather than playing eye games. Adam is wise to be checking given his situation.

The convo in his office where you get your first side quest is not a place where you need to check your surroundings. AJ also stares at the floor a bunch.

I wouldn't try justifying AJs awkwardness. He's just an angry grunt who has trouble letting his inner self out. The man needs a hug.

EM tried to go for the detached JC angle but instead they made AJ into an Emo tween with mech implants...every punk's dream.

CyberP
14th Aug 2014, 15:22
Yeah JC is cooler and has better lines overall but I don't mind Adam.

AdrianShephard
14th Aug 2014, 15:24
Yeah JC is cooler and has better lines overall but I don't mind Adam.

There's something so wrong about those shades AJ has. There just so...eww

Adam better augment his voice if he's in the next one, and he better go to some social interaction classes.

CyberP
14th Aug 2014, 15:39
There's something so wrong about those shades AJ has. There just so...eww
.

Maybe that's why he is awkward? People wouldn't be looking him in the eyes they'd be looking at his unique shades.

I don't understand why we never see AJ get angry at Sarif for fitting him with all sorts of augs against his will rather than those that were necessary to save his life and nothing more. The shades weren't necessary.
This desperately needed more attention I believe. "I never asked for this", is this line even in the actual game? I'm sure something was cut here. This threw me off since the beginning. Yes there is 6 months from the intro to the game proper that is unaccounted for, but it would have been vital for character development I believe.

AdrianShephard
14th Aug 2014, 15:47
This desperately needed more attention I believe. "I never asked for this", is this line even in the actual game? I'm sure something was cut here. This threw me off since the beginning.

I don't think that line was in the game, just the trailer.

Those shades are EM's attempt to make another JC, but they look plain awful. Only wear shades at night if you are a terminator-like badass. Unfortunately for Jensen, those shades made him look Emo 2.0

CyberP
14th Aug 2014, 17:50
I don't think that line was in the game, just the trailer.

Those shades are EM's attempt to make another JC, but they look plain awful. Only wear shades at night if you are a terminator-like badass. Unfortunately for Jensen, those shades made him look Emo 2.0

Eh, your thread started off very well, lots of objective complaints, but now you are bashing the game based on entirely subjective thoughts whilst retaining your objective stance. Fail :p

Emo? I never once got that vibe from Jensen.

Where is the emo in this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1oEiU2Q8Dw)? Just googled and this was the first thing that came up.

This one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncqEQtfcsBg

The first person convos are great. Not perfect, but HR's writing isn't all bad.

AdrianShephard
14th Aug 2014, 18:08
Eh, your thread started off very well, lots of objective complaints, but now you are bashing the game based on entirely subjective thoughts whilst retaining your objective stance. Fail :p

Emo? I never once got that vibe from Jensen.

Where is the emo in this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1oEiU2Q8Dw)? Just googled and this was the first thing that came up.

? What thread bro? This one? Me hating Jensen is entirely subjective.

Emo vibe = long trench coat, sunglasses, wannabe badass, weird faux hawk, broken mirrors, can't cope with himself...all at night. The only things missing are tatoos, neon colored hair, and razors

These would all be acceptable (the coat, glasses, badassness, and hair style all coupled together) if we were in the Matrix era, but that's long gone. The only people you see these days with black trench coats and sunglasses at night are emo kids.

BTW I'm calling Jensen emo, not Wayne or Zeke.

CyberP
14th Aug 2014, 18:26
? What thread bro? This one?

Whoops, no, not this one. I failed. :nut:


These would all be acceptable (the coat, glasses, badassness, and hair style all coupled together) if we were in the Matrix era, but that's long gone. The only people you see these days with black trench coats and sunglasses at night are emo kids.

Who says? So a game like DX1 is no longer acceptable because it too was from the Matrix era?


BTW I'm calling Jensen emo, not Wayne or Zeke.

I know. In those linked convos Jensen is anything but Emo.

AdrianShephard
14th Aug 2014, 18:49
Who says? So a game like DX1 is no longer acceptable because it too was from the Matrix era?

You're missing my point. I'm saying Jensen's look is a little dated, and someone seeing him might not realize that the game is borrowing from the original DX. Never did I say anything about 'acceptability' of the game as a whole; I meant those characteristics wouldn't get a second thought if the game was in the Matrix era. Some people may like the trench coat look; I loathe it. The early-2000 me would love it, but that time has passed and the look usually is stereo-typed with something else...most notably Emos, Goths, and the alternative culture. Back in the 90s/00s, this wouldn't necessarily be the case because Matrix was fresher in people's minds.

A person playing DX1 today might look at JC and wonder why he is wearing a trench coat and sunglasses while having slicked back black hair. Then, when you look at the time period the game came out in, it becomes immediately apparent why the devs chose this look. It was to ride on the Matrix wave everyone was raving about. The cover-art of the game makes it look like you are playing as Neo...JC doesn't even have that kind of hair that is pictured on the cover-art. And for the most part, it worked. Many of my friends bought DX because they thought it was some Matrix spinoff. Even people on this board thought so too, just look at the "Meet the new community manager" thread.

You're a smart guy, and I'm sure you know how fashion changes rapidly. Not that trench coats were ever a big craze, but the late-1990s/early-2000s saw an influx in sunglass/trench coat depiction in pop culture because of The Matrix. This is sort of like understanding why there are so many crazy conspiracies in DX...it's because The X-Files popularized them. Without looking at it in that lens, it doesn't make as much sense.


I know. In those linked convos Jensen is anything but Emo.

In case you haven't realized yet, I'm referring to Jensen's look.

CyberP
14th Aug 2014, 19:01
You're missing my point.

No I'm not. His look, who says he is fashionable, or has to be? It's not acceptable for people to wear as they please, within reason?
Regardless, you get emos, goths and such today. I was in town the other day and saw teenagers in trench coats. If the kids are doing it...


when you look at the time period the game came out in, it becomes immediately apparent why the devs chose this look. It was to ride on the Matrix wave everyone was raving about..

You don't know that for a fact. Maybe the devs just liked trench coats? Maybe they just thought it would make JC look more badass.

If EM are going for "dated" cultural references and such, then I humbly request they do more of it, lest we will have Dubstep, Candy Crush, Selfies, Reality TV or whatever other absolute crap that is all the rage these days.


In case you haven't realized yet, I'm referring to Jensen's look.

No, you were not solely referring to his look:



long trench coat, sunglasses, wannabe badass, weird faux hawk, broken mirrors, can't cope with himself...all at night.

AdrianShephard
14th Aug 2014, 19:15
It's not acceptable for people to wear as they please, within reason?

As you pointed out before, this is subjective. I don't like the trench coat look. Period. Yeah, the devs can make a videogame character wear whatever he wants. Rainbow tank top that cuts off at the belly with booty shorts? Hey, who can I tell what to wear. He can express himself however he pleases.


You don't know that for a fact. Maybe the devs just liked trench coats? Maybe they just thought it would make JC look more badass.

Maybe, maybe, maybe. Maybe we are living in a different world where it just happened that trench coats came in style about the same time The Matrix came out. The Matrix influences are present in DX to a slight bigger degree than just appearances.



No, you were not solely referring to his look:

Still didn't mention anything about the way he talks to people in that list of things I said contribute to the emo vibe. Wannabe badass -> his look, can't cope with himself -> broken mirror -> him violating property.

CyberP
14th Aug 2014, 19:26
Rainbow tank top that cutoffs at the belly with booty shorts?

Hey, I said within reason :p


Still didn't mention anything about the way he talks to people in that list of things I said contribute to the emo vibe. Wannabe badass -> his look, can't cope with himself -> broken mirror -> him violating property.

The way you talk to people and behave in a moral sense is the forefront of one's personality. Body language and choice of clothing and such is secondary to me. That's how I primarily judged Jensen. Perhaps that's why I liked him more than you...

AdrianShephard
14th Aug 2014, 19:34
The way you talk to people and behave in a moral sense is the forefront of one's personality. Body language and choice of clothing and such is secondary to me. That's how I primarily judged Jensen. Perhaps that's why I liked him more than you...

Me having to extend this conversation out and explain myself lends to the illusion that I care more about what Jensen is wearing than what he says which is absolutely not true. You know very well that I care about dialogue, and that is the main reason why I dislike him. There are other threads on this board that will delve much deeper into the very superficial conversations Jensen has with NPCs. Him dressing how he did is just a side-thing I didn't like about him.

CyberP
14th Aug 2014, 19:38
Good to hear :)

Shralla
14th Aug 2014, 20:13
Wearing a trench coat is classic aspect of detective/conspiracy stories. Mulder and Scully wore trench coats. The entire cast of Law and Order wore trench coats at various points. Deus Ex at its core is both a detective and a conspiracy story. And at this point, the trench coat is synonymous with Deus Ex.

WildcatPhoenix
14th Aug 2014, 20:55
The cover-art of the game makes it look like you are playing as Neo...JC doesn't even have that kind of hair that is pictured on the cover-art. And for the most part, it worked. Many of my friends bought DX because they thought it was some Matrix spinoff.

(hangs head in shame)

AdrianShephard
14th Aug 2014, 21:17
Wearing a trench coat is classic aspect of detective/conspiracy stories. Mulder and Scully wore trench coats. The entire cast of Law and Order wore trench coats at various points. Deus Ex at its core is both a detective and a conspiracy story. And at this point, the trench coat is synonymous with Deus Ex.

Ok....

Pop culture showed us detective/conspiracy stories sometimes have trench coats (though usually they are used when the weather permits). Matrix took it to the next level by popularizing it and making it cool to wear one. I don't see what you're getting at. Do sunglasses with the leather trench coat appear in well known detective/conspiracies too along with a boat load of hair gel? And don't forget the MIBs with their glasses and weird speech patterns, which is similar to Agent Smith.

FrankCSIS
14th Aug 2014, 21:48
Men In Black - (1997)
Matrix - (1999)

What you getting at? ;)

Corey Hart, Sunglasses at Night, an odd song with a strange conspiracy surrounding it - 1983.

Just sayin'

'Sides, when I was a kid my cousin and brother were wearing trench coats with combat boots. It's been around the punk movement even longer than conspiracy pop culture. If anything, Matrix just tapped on this.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
14th Aug 2014, 21:51
I own a trenchcoat. :cool:
I am not emo (whatever that means).

WildcatPhoenix
14th Aug 2014, 21:51
Guys, conspiracy theories about "men in black" and sinister government agents have been around since the Roswell incident in the late 1940's.

I would say, however, that much of Deus Ex's style is influenced by The Matrix.

FrankCSIS
14th Aug 2014, 21:58
Matrix freshened up the look by making everything slick. It was already happening, with a more destroyed punkish twist, in the 80's and early 90's films. No doubt Matrix's crisp spin on it influenced the visuals, especially the box art. They were probably either more corporate, or more gritty, originally, depending on which characters we're talking about.

Jito463
14th Aug 2014, 21:59
I would say, however, that much of Deus Ex's style is influenced by The Matrix.

I will admit that it's possible, but it's also possible you're only seeing that influence because of the similarities. In other words, you're seeing what you expect to see. Unless you can show developer notes stating such, it's just speculation.

AdrianShephard
14th Aug 2014, 22:01
What you getting at? ;)

That Deus Ex (sunglasses, coat, hair) is influenced more by Matrix than anything. Yes, the MIB thing is a loose point, but the others stand.



'Sides, when I was a kid my cousin and brother were wearing trench coats with combat boots. It's been around the punk movement even longer than conspiracy pop culture. If anything, Matrix just tapped on this.

Sure, never said that Matrix invented the trench coat look. Saying Matrix 'tapped' on the style though is going a bit too far, IMO.

FrankCSIS
14th Aug 2014, 22:04
Neuromancer's graphic novel, dated 1989, is already gunning for this style, with slick dark hair, dark leather coats, sunglasses at night and tight black pants. The aesthetics weren't there yet, but you can feel some of the vibe already, ten years earlier. Keep in mind, Gibson was influenced as much by bikers as he was by kids playing arcades. Mix that up with Deckard's retro-futuristic trench coat, and you get a mish mash of all things cyberpunk.

I'll certainly admit Matrix had its signature style. But it's an evolution of already existing tropes, a conclusion others were probably also getting at around the same time.

AdrianShephard
14th Aug 2014, 22:09
Neuromancer's graphic novel, dated 1989, is already gunning for this style, with slick dark hair, dark leather coats, sunglasses at night and tight black pants. The aesthetics weren't there yet, but you can feel some of the vibe already, ten years earlier. Keep in mind, Gibson was influenced as much by bikers as he was by kids playing arcades. Mix that up with Deckard's retro-futuristic trench coat, and you get a mish mash of all things cyberpunk.

It's a line of works that influence each other. Surely we can go back further and see the first time glasses coats and gel appeared together at night.

EDIT: I see you already added in te same thing while I was typing this post.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
14th Aug 2014, 22:18
Bogart and his trench coat deserve a shout-out. :p

AdrianShephard
14th Aug 2014, 22:21
Bogart and his trench coat deserve a shout-out. :p

"Playing it Bogart" -Max Payne

Never fully understood that when I was younger.

1nflu3n2
14th Aug 2014, 22:43
Also....

something something 80's & 90's Goth subculture and Night scene
something something vampires
something something Blade (1998 movie)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blade_%28film%29
http://marvel-movies.wikia.com/wiki/Eric_Brooks

Hey, look at that! Trenchcoat, sunglasses, vest, boots, sword... :cool:

besyuziki
14th Aug 2014, 23:13
I don't care that the coat-sunglasses duo is heavily borrowed from older work, overused, or outdated, as long as it does what it's supposed to. It conceals JC and Adam's weapons and augmentations, so that they can blend in and don't spook people with their features. They are still spotted as "augs" of course, but Adam Jensen would be more welcome in any social situation than, say, a Harvester thug proudly showing his gold plated chicken feet he got in the chop shop.

Does anyone know if the flower motif on Adam's coat have a significance? Was it ever explained?

AdrianShephard
14th Aug 2014, 23:18
Does anyone know if the flower motif on Adam's coat have a significance? Was it ever explained?

I think EM said once that people who are pro-augmenation wear clothes that have that design and people against augs wear 'normal' clothes.

From the Wikia:



The pace of technological development is reflected visually by a Renaissance theme. Characters who support the advances of human augmentation dress themselves and decorate their homes in reinterpreted late-mediaeval Italian style, and the game as a whole has a sepia-tinted colour palette reminiscent of historic manuscripts. In contrast, characters who oppose augmentation wear clothing that is more or less current-day.

Didn't really notice a difference in places other than Detroit. This was more of pre-release info that was supposed to hype the game...

CyberP
14th Aug 2014, 23:32
What you getting at?


That Deus Ex (sunglasses, coat, hair) is influenced more by Matrix than anything. Yes, the MIB thing is a loose point, but the others stand.


False. It was primarily influenced by the X-files (and of course previous Immersive Sims) more than anything.
Heck the Matrix was only released just before Q2 1999. Any influence would have been minor.
As Frank says, the game was almost certainly influenced by Sci-Fi novels such as Neuromancer and Fahrenheit 451 also. Sci-fi in general really as we seem to all agree, but X-files the most. I love X-files, blew my mind as a kid.

Deus Ex design doc:

“near future science fiction with elements of conspiracy theory and X-Files weirdness,”

Deus Ex post-mortem:

"James Bond meets The X-Files."

Wikipedia:

Noting his wife's fascination with The X-Files, he connected the "real world, millennial weirdness, [and] conspiracy stuff"

Lead writer Sheldon Pacotti told Eurogamer his take on Deus Ex's development; "Warren once commented that in the beginning he envisioned the game as X-Files but he somehow ended up with James Bond".

AdrianShephard
15th Aug 2014, 00:09
False. It was primarily influenced by the X-files (and of course previous Immersive Sims) more than anything.
Heck the Matrix was only released just before Q2 1999. Any influence would have been minor.
As Frank says, the game was almost certainly influenced by Sci-Fi novels such as Neuromancer and Fahrenheit 451 also. Sci-fi in general really as we seem to all agree, but X-files the most. I love X-files, blew my mind as a kid.

Deus Ex design doc:

“near future science fiction with elements of conspiracy theory and X-Files weirdness,”

Deus Ex post-mortem:

"James Bond meets The X-Files."

Wikipedia:

Noting his wife's fascination with The X-Files, he connected the "real world, millennial weirdness, [and] conspiracy stuff"

Lead writer Sheldon Pacotti told Eurogamer his take on Deus Ex's development; "Warren once commented that in the beginning he envisioned the game as X-Files but he somehow ended up with James Bond".

As you can see in the parenthesis, I meant the look -- specifically Denton, obviously not the entire game itself. I should've made that more clear.

CyberP
15th Aug 2014, 00:37
As you can see in the parenthesis, I meant the look -- specifically Denton, obviously not the entire game itself. I should've made that more clear.


parenthesis

a word or phrase inserted as an explanation or afterthought into a passage which is grammatically complete without it, in writing usually marked off by brackets, dashes, or commas.

Your use of parenthesis was incorrect, hence my confusion :p

We all make mistakes...

AdrianShephard
15th Aug 2014, 00:46
Your use of parenthesis was incorrect, hence my confusion :p

We all make mistakes...

The parenthesis did indeed explain what specific part of DX I was referring to. I understand that it wasn't the best use, and some people would get confused, but I'm sure others would've corrected me way before you did if they thought I was saying DX is completely influenced by Matrix.

CyberP
15th Aug 2014, 01:06
Yeah I may just be being a dumbass again. On a fail streak today.

AdrianShephard
15th Aug 2014, 01:24
Yeah I may just be being a dumbass again. On a fail streak today.

Working on your mod too much?

CyberP
15th Aug 2014, 01:52
Not today. Just a few lines of code, nothing more. Can get a little overwhelming at times though. It's a big game...of course.

WildcatPhoenix
15th Aug 2014, 04:44
Bogart and his trench coat deserve a shout-out. :p

Which, along with the hardboiled dialogue and certain character archetypes (detective or former cop protagonist, femme fatales, etc) points to cyberpunk's connections to film noir, not just science fiction.