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FootFetish4Life
24th Jul 2014, 04:07
I think we can all agree that Absolution 's controls were more fluid than it's predecessors. 47's fiber wire garrote, especially when he pounces and kicks his unsuspecting victim right in the lower spine right before applying the hold of death. However, one thing I missed about previous Hitman games was the feeling of tension as you moved from point A to point B. In Absolution, subduing NPC's was a little too easy in that regard. What I suggest is, keep the controls from Absolution, but make the time it takes for the NPC to either pass out or die more realistic. After 47 garrotes a guard, make the guard struggle violently and gasp for a good 10 seconds before finally coming at ease and blacking out.

I'll give you a scenario. You approach 2 guards. One is smoking a cigarette overlooking a balcony, the other is either in the guard quarters near by or patrolling the vicinity with the risk of walking into your area. So, you sneak up to the first guard and strangle him. He's kicking and gasping, all the while, the overview map or Instinct is off limits and all you have is the ability to pan the camera around to see if anyone is coming. After 10 seconds, he's out and you must drag him to safety. That should provide a feeling of "Oh $hit in my pants" to should add to the suspense.

Also, there should be a plan B, say if, you're caught in the act, where you can release your victim and draw your weapon to take out the other guard before he shoots you. Depending on how far along the strangulation was, the victim will either drop to the floor incoherently or shoot or charge at you. In this situation, if you feel your victim is very much conscious, you can hold him as a shield while drawing your weapon to shoot back.

Same thing for the dual action choke hold in Absolution where you have the option of either putting the victim to sleep or snapping his neck. Furthermore, Performing this action should require the same amount of time, otherwise, the fiber wire would be irrelevant. Putting someone to sleep in this manner should be Tier 1. The victim wakes up rather soon. The use of injections or chloroform w/cloth will have a longer lasting effect but require more time, kinda like how the anesthetic worked in Silent Assassin.

On another note, what about the idea of switching out 47's fiber wire to a watch? A smart watch. One of those you see in spy movies where a fiber wire pulls out from the bolt on the side. Maybe it can be an upgrade that allows you into certain areas where the fiber wire has become outdated and searchable by bouncers, security personnel and the like.

AdrianShephard
24th Jul 2014, 04:23
On another note, what about the idea of switching out 47's fiber wire to a watch? A smart watch. One of those you see in spy movies where a fiber wire pulls out from the bolt on the side. Maybe it can be an upgrade that allows you into certain areas where the fiber wire has become outdated and searchable by bouncers, security personnel and the like.

Eh...

The fiber wire is 47's signature weapon. It definitely is suspicious but I guess we have to suspend reality and assume guards/security don't know/care about it.

47 has/uses 4 iconic things that should never change:

1) His bar code
2) Fiber wire
3) Hardballers / Silverballers or whatever they are called nowadays
4) His outfit

FootFetish4Life
24th Jul 2014, 04:27
Yeah, I didn't expect this one to carry over so well. Just a thought. The watch thing does look cool in the movies.

Itsrob
24th Jul 2014, 16:40
I don't agree with the watch, but I agree with the time it takes to kill someone with the wire. It seemed almost instant in Absolution, ~10 seconds and really showing the guy struggle would be more realistic

FootFetish4Life
24th Jul 2014, 17:46
I would also add bring back the multiple animations from Blood Money. Sometimes, with the fiber wire, 47 would shift his entire victim's body onto his back and continue to strangle them. That was always cool, combined with the jump kick from Absolution, sheeeeeiit, that would be some bad juice.

LeMoN_LiMe
24th Jul 2014, 17:52
10 seconds is a long time.

I'm all for realism, but lets be serious.

FootFetish4Life
24th Jul 2014, 18:20
10 seconds is a long time.

I'm all for realism, but lets be serious.

It doesn't have to be 10 seconds. It could be in the range of 5-7. It's just that in Absolution, the victim was dead instantly. It wasn't very noticeable because Absolution was a more fast paced game. A lot of the levels were linear and you were more on the offense than the defense.

Think back to You Better Watch Out! from Blood Money, when you walk through the waterfall to subdue the perverted photographer. There was a brief moment when the DRAG option was unavailable. IDK if that was intentional, but I was pretty much standing out in the open next to a dead body. Anybody could've walked around the corner and spotted us. The process of subduing this man and dragging him back behind the waterfall gave me goosebumps. Not to mention the threatening soundtrack playing in the background and the diabolical church choir. That was the very nature of Hitman.

Also, the whole process of sneaking up behind someone, strangling them and dragging them to safety are 2 world's different between Absolution and older Hitman games. I think if they go back to open sandbox levels in H6, the strangulation from Absolution would be too easy, not to mention that 47's sneak was a lot quicker last time around. Think about how long the process was to strangle someone in Blood Money. First you had to sneak up behind them, then you had to strangle them, provided you were able to pull it off, then you had to wait for the victim to die, after, an animation of 47 setting the dead victim down, then you had to manually press a button to drag the body. In Absolution everything is automatic, including the body drag. I'd say a 7-10 second strangulation is a good range to balance it out a little.

Maybe 10 seconds is a little too much for some people. There could be a middle ground. I'll agree that my time perception may be a little off. The point I'm making is to add suspense to the gameplay. It doesn't have to be 10 seconds.

FootFetish4Life
24th Jul 2014, 19:29
Eh...

The fiber wire is 47's signature weapon. It definitely is suspicious but I guess we have to suspend reality and assume guards/security don't know/care about it.

47 has/uses 4 iconic things that should never change:

1) His bar code
2) Fiber wire
3) Hardballers / Silverballers or whatever they are called nowadays
4) His outfit

It can still be called the Fiber Wire, it will still be a fiber wire, it will just be less visible and fit more into the context of the game and real life. The only thing missing are the handles. lol.

mcescher1
24th Jul 2014, 19:50
10 seconds is a long time.

I'm all for realism, but lets be serious.

i agree

FootFetish4Life
24th Jul 2014, 20:09
10 seconds is a long time.

I'm all for realism, but lets be serious.


i agree

Why exactly?

LeMoN_LiMe
24th Jul 2014, 20:57
It doesn't have to be 10 seconds.

You got a deal. A longer strangle time would make gameplay more strategic and interesting.

AdrianShephard
24th Jul 2014, 22:51
Just make the strangle time how it always used to be. From what I remember, the time has been almost the same in all of the titles. The only difference was in BM how sometimes 47 did a necksnap.

I'm also for more animations for the struggle like in BM.

mcescher1
24th Jul 2014, 23:20
i think the strangulations in bm were better than in h:a

FootFetish4Life
24th Jul 2014, 23:50
Just make the strangle time how it always used to be. From what I remember, the time has been almost the same in all of the titles. The only difference was in BM how sometimes 47 did a necksnap.

I'm also for more animations for the struggle like in BM.

The strangle time in Absolution is nonexistent. The victim is instantly dead once the wire is tightened around his neck. You have to consider that the general consensus on the garrote is that Absolution's was better (I'm actually on the fence). I highly doubt they're gonna go back to the old system. That being said, the strangle in Blood Money and previous titles involved other factors; 47's sneak was slower and you had to manually press a button to drag afterwards. The map was inaccessible during the strangle. In Absolution everything is faster, easier and automatic. If they go back to stealth missions I think the strangle will be too easy.

FootFetish4Life
25th Jul 2014, 00:17
i think the strangulations in bm were better than in h:a

The fiber wire garrote in Blood Money is just over 5 seconds. The lethal injection clocked in at 8. Not to mention that afterwards you have to wait for the DRAG option to display. As I said before it doesn't have to be 10 seconds.

As for which one is more bad ass I think the general consensus is that Absolution's garrote looks better. I like the Blood Money strangle system too but I highly doubt they're gonna revert back to that now.

AdrianShephard
25th Jul 2014, 05:03
As for which one is more bad ass I think the general consensus is that Absolution's garrote looks better.

?

I don't see this "general consensus" that you speak of...

FootFetish4Life
25th Jul 2014, 05:18
?

I don't see this "general consensus" that you speak of...

:worship:"Oh, please! Oh, please! Blood Money 2 with Absolution's graphics and controls! Blood Money 2 with Absolution's graphics and controls! Give us Blood Money 2 with Absolution's graphics and controls and we'll be happy!":mad2::flowers:

The writing is ejaculated on the freakin' wall!

While we're back on planet Earth, are you really gonna contest me that a more youthful Agent 47 pouncing and driving his foot into someone's life bone isn't more appealing than the robotic look of pre-Absolution 47? I've already corrected you once before on this Blood Money 2 thing, Shephard. Let's not go through this again. :cool:

AdrianShephard
25th Jul 2014, 06:21
:worship:"Oh, please! Oh, please! Blood Money 2 with Absolution's graphics and controls! Blood Money 2 with Absolution's graphics and controls! Give us Blood Money 2 with Absolution's graphics and controls and we'll be happy!":mad2::flowers:

The writing is ejaculated on the freakin' wall!

While we're back on planet Earth, are you really gonna contest me that a more youthful Agent 47 pouncing and driving his foot into someone's life bone isn't more appealing than the robotic look of pre-Absolution 47? I've already corrected you once before on this Blood Money 2 thing, Shephard. Let's not go through this again. :cool:

You leave no doubt in my mind that you are indeed that "Sergio" trouble maker. And no...you never 'corrected' me on "this Blood Money 2 thing"; Sergio tried to. But as I remember it, we came at a stand still in that thread because of someone's inability to think critically. Speaking of critical thinking, why did you mention "Blood Money 2 with Absolution's graphics"? We are discussing animations.

And you both share the same distorted and foolish view that your opinion (which you try and roll into the very ambiguous "general consensus") is fact.

FootFetish4Life
25th Jul 2014, 06:29
You sound hostile. Don't mind me, I was drunk off my @$$ when I typed that comment (still am). However I do remember correcting SOMEBODY on the Blood Money 2 thing. Somebody who who thinks Codename 47 was the pinnacle of Hitman. Maybe it was you, maybe it wasn't. They came back and apologized (sort of).

kewlak
25th Jul 2014, 09:29
As for which one is more bad ass I think the general consensus is that Absolution's garrote looks better.
As far as i remember garrote in Absolution was invisible :nut:

BTW:
- I want more animations of strangling and slitting throat too. It would be nice if it would depend on player, to which animation trigger. For example releasing left click (i'd like to see in H6 "hold and release system" of strangling as it was in previous titles) while standing still would trigger different animation, and releasing LBM+forward (it's just an example) different.

- I think strangling in Absolution was waaaaaaaaay too fast and easy.

gkkiller
25th Jul 2014, 11:29
6-7 seconds sounds like a good enough length for the animation, as long as we can drag the body immediately afterwards. Also, to give a proper reason for tightening fibre wire, why not have the animation take about two seconds more if you haven't tightened the fibre wire beforehand?

Bringing back the neck snap would be cool, but I think it's a bad idea because:
1) Neck snapping is basically fibre-wiring someone without having to tighten the fibre wire before, and if you mean the Absolution style bare-handed neck snap, you don't have to even equip the fibre wire.
2) Aesthetically, neck snapping is fast and brutal. I think of 47 as an elegant, calculating killing machine, and a violent 'grab-and-twist' neck snap doesn't fit in with that image.

FootFetish4Life
25th Jul 2014, 13:57
As far as i remember garrote in Absolution was invisible :nut:

BTW:
- I want more animations of strangling and slitting throat too. It would be nice if it would depend on player, to which animation trigger. For example releasing left click (i'd like to see in H6 "hold and release system" of strangling as it was in previous titles) while standing still would trigger different animation, and releasing LBM+forward (it's just an example) different.

- I think strangling in Absolution was waaaaaaaaay too fast and easy.

I'm not talking about the weapon itself, I'm talking about the animation. Absolution's garrote was definitely cooler. And it was not invisible it's clearly seen wrapped around 47's right hand.

FootFetish4Life
25th Jul 2014, 14:04
6-7 seconds sounds like a good enough length for the animation, as long as we can drag the body immediately afterwards. Also, to give a proper reason for tightening fibre wire, why not have the animation take about two seconds more if you haven't tightened the fibre wire beforehand?

Bringing back the neck snap would be cool, but I think it's a bad idea because:
1) Neck snapping is basically fibre-wiring someone without having to tighten the fibre wire before, and if you mean the Absolution style bare-handed neck snap, you don't have to even equip the fibre wire.
2) Aesthetically, neck snapping is fast and brutal. I think of 47 as an elegant, calculating killing machine, and a violent 'grab-and-twist' neck snap doesn't fit in with that image.

The problem with a "fast" neck snap is it kind of makes the fiber wire irrelevant. In Blood Money the neck snap was okay because it was random. To my knowledge there is no way of doing it manually. I think the neck snap from Absolution was perfect because it required extra time and work. I actually prefer the quick head snap. It's fast and brutal and very much fits 47's style, gameplay-wise I don't think it's a good idea.

What you said about being penalized of not tightening beforehand: YES!

kewlak
25th Jul 2014, 14:37
I'm not talking about the weapon itself, I'm talking about the animation. Absolution's garrote was definitely cooler.
Why cooler? The same animation over and over again, plus ridiculously short time of strangulation. It's a matter of taste though.

FootFetish4Life
25th Jul 2014, 15:37
What was all this talk about people preferring Absolution's controls, now everyone wants to go back to the Blood Money style? Jesus!

FootFetish4Life
25th Jul 2014, 17:02
Why cooler? The same animation over and over again, plus ridiculously short time of strangulation. It's a matter of taste though.

Not talking about the actual strangulation. I'm talking about everything leading up to the wire going around the victim's neck. In Absolution, 47's looks better when he sneaks and his application of the wire looks more professional. In Blood Money and previous titles, 47 looks robotic when he sneaks and when he applies the fiber wire. YES. He looked better in Absolution.

AdrianShephard
25th Jul 2014, 20:31
What was all this talk about people preferring Absolution's controls, now everyone wants to go back to the Blood Money style? Jesus!

Controls =/= Animations

And Absolution controls were better for console players. I'm not sure if PC players feel the same way.

FootFetish4Life
25th Jul 2014, 20:53
Controls =/= Animations

And Absolution controls were better for console players. I'm not sure if PC players feel the same way.

I'm not sure why I brought up controls, even tho I'm pretty sure that's where this discussion is heading.

AdrianShephard
25th Jul 2014, 21:26
I'm not sure why I brought up controls, even tho I'm pretty sure that's where this discussion is heading.

You brought up controls back when you were claiming that everyone wants Blood Money 2 with Absolution's controls and graphics. I'm still trying to figure that one out.

There already is this thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=143748)to discuss controls/sensitivity.This thread is about the animation/fiber wire. That is, unless you want to change the title...

FootFetish4Life
25th Jul 2014, 22:53
You brought up controls back when you were claiming that everyone wants Blood Money 2 with Absolution's controls and graphics. I'm still trying to figure that one out.

There already is this thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=143748)to discuss controls/sensitivity.This thread is about the animation/fiber wire. That is, unless you want to change the title...

I was merely quoting other people on the forum: "Blood Money 2 with Absolution's graphics and controls" is something I've frequently read on this forum. That was my explanation for the garrote preference. When people talk about graphics they also mean animations. Face it, 47 moved like one of those velociraptors from Jurassic Park in all of the earlier Hitman games. I don't think we have to run a poll to figure out which game had the best animation. As for the strangulations, there were none in Absolution so we can't really make a comparison there. They should just be added.

Another reason to consider controls is because a lot of people (and this is just my experience reading) prefer the automatic strangle from Absolution, meaning we don't really have to worry about 47 taking out his fiber wire and tightening it, under that context. That affects the animation.

mcescher1
26th Jul 2014, 00:42
I was merely quoting other people on the forum: "Blood Money 2 with Absolution's graphics and controls" is something I've frequently read on this forum. That was my explanation for the garrote preference. When people talk about graphics they also mean animations. Face it, 47 moved like one of those velociraptors from Jurassic Park in all of the earlier Hitman games. I don't think we have to run a poll to figure out which game had the best animation. As for the strangulations, there were none in Absolution so we can't really make a comparison there. They should just be added.

Another reason to consider controls is because a lot of people (and this is just my experience reading) prefer the automatic strangle from Absolution, meaning we don't really have to worry about 47 taking out his fiber wire and tightening it, under that context. That affects the animation.

a velociraptor? a lot of people prefer the automatic strangle from absolution? :scratch:

you are assuming too much for other people... especially since you seem to disagree with everyone on this forum a lot, SERGIO.

i prefer the winding up of the fiberwire it adds to the suspense and creates timing as far as the controls go... i hope they change because i would like to see instinct gone and first person added back in. . . i expect modified controls for the next game from blood money and absolution

FootFetish4Life
26th Jul 2014, 01:24
a velociraptor? a lot of people prefer the automatic strangle from absolution? :scratch:

you are assuming too much for other people... especially since you seem to disagree with everyone on this forum a lot, SERGIO.

i prefer the winding up of the fiberwire it adds to the suspense and creates timing as far as the controls go... i hope they change because i would like to see instinct gone and first person added back in. . . i expect modified controls for the next game from blood money and absolution

First of all, you're putting words in my mouth, CESHER. I've read plenty of opinions in favor of controls from Absolution. I've yet to read one that was in favor of the controls from Blood Money and earlier titles before this discussion started. You think this is the only forum on the planet? I for one thought the controls in Absolution could be improved, there isn't really any bias on my side. And yes. 47's animations in Absolution blew everything else out of the water, it had a more advanced engine, what do you expect? The animations in Blood Money were an improvement but they still lacked the advantage of mo-cap. You got everything you came for?

AdrianShephard
26th Jul 2014, 02:53
First of all, you're putting words in my mouth, CESHER. I've read plenty of opinions in favor of controls from Absolution. I've yet to read one that was in favor of the controls from Blood Money and earlier titles before this discussion started.

I liked the controls in the pre-Absolution games. However, I play Hitman games on the PC. Absolution for consoles was a vast improvement from the older titles in the controls department so I would understand your position if you play consoles.

If it was up to me, I would go back to the C:47/SA/Contracts controls where everything is in a menu.

By the way, have you played a Hitman game on the PC or have you only played the console versions?

FootFetish4Life
26th Jul 2014, 03:23
I liked the controls in the pre-Absolution games. However, I play Hitman games on the PC. Absolution for consoles was a vast improvement from the older titles in the controls department so I would understand your position if you play consoles.

If it was up to me, I would go back to the C:47/SA/Contracts controls where everything is in a menu.

By the way, have you played a Hitman game on the PC or have you only played the console versions?

I've only played the console version. Thing is, I never had a problem with old Hitman on console, as clunky as the controls were. For the same reason I like the old Resident Evil games. The difficult controls are what added suspense. However, I've already played that version of Hitman and I'm ready for something new. I liked the direction Absolution was going as far as the animations and controls are concerned. I liked the single tap garrote. It was just cleaner and more cinematic. The whole thing where you have the risk of missing your victim's head with the fiber wire from old Hitman games, I don't need to see that again. Besides, I'd imagine a motion-captured 47 would look pretty silly missing his mark, as if he were playing pin the tail on the donkey. The old Hitman was a little cartoony and more forgiving.

The thing about Absolution is that for the first time there was a cover system. It made certain things possible that weren't in previous titles. In Absolution you moved with a cat's finesse, you just felt more like a silent assassin. Whereas in Blood Money everything you do is clumsy.

I think I read you complain about old Hitman's controls on console. You being on PC, I'd imagine Absolution's controls would be even better.

And as far as doing everything through a list menu. I don't like that at all. I like the more natural feel from Absolution.

AdrianShephard
26th Jul 2014, 03:34
I think I read you complain about old Hitman's controls on console. You being on PC, I'd imagine Absolution's controls would be even better.

Quite the contrary, actually. Hitman (pre-Absolution) has always been a PC game first and then a console game second. As a console gamer myself, I was frustrated by the controls of Hitman 2 on my PS2 so I made the switch to PC which is where I stayed for the entire series (as a bonus you get to play C:47). Then Absolution comes along and solves the clunky controls of the old Hitman games while also introducing a less intuitive scheme for the PC players.

I really want to know if anyone else (PC players) shares my view but the old Hitman controls were vastly superior to this new Absolution layout. I think folks at IO should include 2 control schemes, one designed for the controller (Absolution) and another for the PC players used to the more straightforward scheme (pre-Absolution).



The thing about Absolution is that for the first time there was a cover system. It made certain things possible that weren't in previous titles. In Absolution you moved with a cat's finesse, you just felt more like a silent assassin. Whereas in Blood Money everything you do is clumsy.

If playing cover-to-cover and moving like a cat is your thing, I would suggest the last two Splinter Cell titles would be a good fit for you. I've never thought I would see a Hitman game bring cover gameplay or "cat finesse" because that's just so contrary to how the game is meant to be played -- which is walking out in the open, not playing from the shadows. The 'silent assassin' in Hitman means no witnesses or evidence -- that doesn't necessarily mean nobody can see you.

Funny thing is, Splinter Cell's Sam Fisher was also "clumsy" in the first 4 games of the series but that added to the 'tacticalness'. The movements were even more robotic than 47's and for a game that severely punishes being seen, it was a bit of a pain to navigate around. The cover system was also not the best but that deterred players from using it too much. Then Conviction came along and made Fisher into a "predator stalking his prey" type character where all of the sudden we get Gears of War style cover and super quick movements. You know what happened then? The series went to hell; it lost its uniqueness and the new mechanics completely disrupted the flow of the series. It definitely made for a better 3rd person experience, I'll give you that. But it just wasn't Splinter Cell anymore. Exact same thing happened to Absolution. Sometimes it's better to not touch something that's half-broken for fear that you'll wreck it even more.

FootFetish4Life
26th Jul 2014, 03:50
There should be a layout for the PC player base but I don't know about all this Hitman being a PC game first. Console gaming is where the real money is at. Not my choice but that's the reality. Also, when it comes to aiming the mouse rules the roost, but as far as player movement and camera control is concerned nothing beats the analog sticks. Plus with a controller you can play from your couch. I couldn't ever imagine playing on a keyboard.

AdrianShephard
26th Jul 2014, 04:04
There should be a layout for the PC player base but I don't know about all this Hitman being a PC game first. Console gaming is where the real money is at.

I said pre-Absolution Hitman was PC first, console second. The controls were implemented with PC players in mind, not console players. Blood Money sort of made progress for the people playing with a controller, since the list menu doesn't work well for them.

And while I agree that console gaming is where the industry is concentrated, you have to remember that Hitman has its own niche market. It's not a series that will put up 10 million + copies sold (for a particular game)...like Splinter Cell, it is an acquired taste. That's why IO has to listen to its old-school fans. We are their primary costumers and without pleasing us, the series is gone. Hate to mention Splinter Cell again, but the latest game barely sold 2 million copies and the series is on hiatus now. Ubisoft (obviously) sold out and tried to make the game accessible to kids and in the process shot themselves in the foot. If that series ever comes back, I guarantee you they will do an "open letter to the fans".

My point is that you cannot make the game targeted at one audience when your fanbase is relatively small and split across multiple platforms.

Edit:

One more thing. I agree that player movement is easier for some games when using a controller, but it should be noted that you also lose some features. For example, leaning and strafing are virtually none-existent on games optimized for the controller. To make up for this, the cover mechanic is introduced which, again, disrupts the flow of the game if not implemented correctly. A good example of this is Deus Ex Human Revolution. Playing a game cover to cover isn't stealth. You're just exploiting poor AI and dumb patrol paths. I've yet to see a true stealth game with a cover system that doesn't make the game incredibly easy (other than the first few SC's). And camera control is better with a mouse since that is what the right analog stick basically imitates; you can be much more quicker and precise with a mouse.

gkkiller
26th Jul 2014, 07:36
Just a question: when did we go from talking about fibre wire animations to console controls vs PC controls?

AdrianShephard
26th Jul 2014, 07:42
Just a question: when did we go from talking about fibre wire animations to console controls vs PC controls?

Sergio wanted it.

He said:



Another reason to consider controls is because a lot of people (and this is just my experience reading) prefer the automatic strangle from Absolution, meaning we don't really have to worry about 47 taking out his fiber wire and tightening it, under that context. That affects the animation.

And with that the discussion went to controls.

There really isn't a point in continuing this thread anymore. Almost everyone that replied wants a longer strangle time. Some people like the extra tension when you have to manually tighten the wire, some don't. Personal taste, that's it.