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daventry
26th Jun 2014, 16:32
Thanks for the help Driber in making this Poll :wave:




If you dislike Sam and want to see her killed off like me, post your own death image. For FUN. No hate, please.

Rules:
Please no shipping in this thread. Go here (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=134386) for that

Now i havent read any of the Comics and ive been keeping an Eye on another Topic about the Comics of TR, so why does it feel that Sam is the Center Point that will be in ROTTR by allot as if its Zip and Alister all over again, because so far all i hear is Sam this and Sam that witch is getting on my nerves.

I mean what about Jonah and Reyes, are they yesterdays news or something in witch i dont really care about them, but come on.

I fear Sam will be the Center Point in ROTTR with her needing Saving again where Lara will be all Hero like dragging her around.

a_big_house
26th Jun 2014, 16:38
Wooooooww....

d1n0_xD
26th Jun 2014, 16:47
I wouldn't mind her as a supporting character, for continuity's sake... Whether she will be killed of in this game or the next, we'll see :D

Driber
26th Jun 2014, 16:50
I'm pretty much done with Sam at this point, too, heh. But as much I enjoyed the bit of fun we had in that "if Sam dies, we riot" thread, going this whole "let's post death pics" route is going a bit too far, even for me, sooooo.... yeah..... good luck with this thread, daventry. lol


Thanks for the help Driber in making this Poll :wave:

Glad I could help you starting a thread with a neutral sounding poll for a change :p :D

Ellie92
26th Jun 2014, 16:55
Where is the "as main cast" option?

Anyway, I have found a nice picture of Sam dead.

Lara is lying in bed, imagining her love that died last night. Or maybe it is her ghost who will be with Lara forever and ever. :o

daventry
26th Jun 2014, 16:59
I will try to be Nice Driber and Ellie92 please keep that in the Shipping Thread, lets not start... well that. :rolleyes:

_Ninja_
26th Jun 2014, 17:56
I don't necessarily want her killed off but I don't want her being part of the story either. Especially after the corny rehash in the comics. Lara should be Raiding Tombs alone, not "inseparable" with some side kick BFF whom they still can't make very interesting.

The first game was about Lara saving a friend and that was alright but enough of that high school soap opera BFF stuff already.

Valenka
26th Jun 2014, 18:04
I really don't care but I don't think a character needs to die in order to not appear in future instalments.

Jurre
26th Jun 2014, 18:05
Now i havent read any of the Comics and ive been keeping an Eye on another Topic about the Comics of TR, so why does it feel that Sam is the Center Point that will be in ROTTR by allot as if its Zip and Alister all over again, because so far all i hear is Sam this and Sam that witch is getting on my nerves.


I disagree about the Zip and Allister part; they were always supportive characters in a story that was centered solely around Lara. But I can see very clearly were you are coming from with the Sam thing getting on your nerves.

I believe that this due to the thing that I have been warning about forever here (but nobody seemed to care about) : Lara is too iconic for her own good: they won't give her a real character out of fear that there would be too many people not liking the perticular direction they would take with her. Ergo: the unestablished supportive character (Sam) who does have room to grow as a character takes over the story and the burden of character development and story arc falls on her.

Killing Sam wouldn't fix that problem: another side character would simply take over that role. What needs to be done I think is that the Crystal D and Square Enix overlords should give the writing team more liberty in developing Lara's character and let them make a story that centers around her: this may lead to angry protesters screaming things like 'this is not the Lara I have known!' like back in 2006 during Legend, but in the long run I do believe that this would be better.

As for Sam: no I don't want her to be killed, that would be like a slap in the face after going through everything to safe her in TR9, just have her be a side character with a smaller role compared to TR9...

daventry
26th Jun 2014, 18:12
I disagree about the Zip and Allister part; they were always supportive characters in a story that was centered solely around Lara.Im not even going to Respond as to how Rediculas that statement is, why would Lara need an Assistant like Alister to help her Tomb Raiding when Lara is one herself and knows all the research herself.

The point of Zip was Only Needed for that one Russian Level, so why do Lara need Comical Characters to Entertain herself throughout TRL/TRU

Do we really need Sidekicks in a Game, why cant we be ourselves and play the Game we paid for.

Im the Sidekick behind the Control and that is my Character im playing with.

a_big_house
26th Jun 2014, 18:15
She needs assistants to progress the story, simple as that

Valenka
26th Jun 2014, 18:16
Im not even going to Respond as to how Rediculas that statement is, why would Lara need an Assistant like Alister to help her Tomb Raiding when Lara is one herself and knows all the research herself.

:lol:
You just responded.

It's not a ridiculous statement. It's Jurre's opinion and they've a right to it. I agree with them completely; Zip and Alister were supporting characters. Whether or not they were necessary is up to individual determination.

Jurre
26th Jun 2014, 18:25
Im not even going to Respond as to how Rediculas that statement is, why would Lara need an Assistant like Alister to help her Tomb Raiding when Lara is one herself and knows all the research herself.


Good grief, what is your problem? First: change that messed up attitude of yours. Second: learn to read properly: I very clearly stated that Z&L were supportive characters, contrary to your statement that they were the center point of the story. The necessity of supportive characters was not the subject of the discussion.

And unless the next thing that comes out of your mouth is an apology I think this conversation is over.

daventry
26th Jun 2014, 18:31
I do Apologize Jurre i dident mean to Offend, but Lara Croft Dont need supportive Characters
:lol:
You just responded.

It's not a ridiculous statement. It's Jurre's opinion and they've a right to it. I agree with them completely; Zip and Alister were supporting characters. Whether or not they were necessary is up to individual determination.The other day you said you were going to do some Gaming thing in witch Congrats, but do i need to Assist you in anything, i mean can you handle yourself in a Job or do i need to help you with something. Im just trying to be Supportive here.

Thats been the Argue Point about Zip and Alister, so why would you need Help from someone when you Already know how to do your Job.

The same with Sam, why does she need to be around to Entertain us or be a Damsel in Distress Again just so she can be around to please everyone.

Rai
26th Jun 2014, 18:37
Where's the 'No, but she doesn't have to die' option? :p

I'll go with the only No option though as I do have an opinion and do care to express it, and it's the only option left for me. :nut:

Jurre
26th Jun 2014, 18:40
I do Apologize Jurre i dident mean to Offend, but Lara Croft Dont need supportive Characters


Wow... did not expect that... Very well, thou art forgiven.

RybatGrimes
26th Jun 2014, 18:41
Thats been the Argue Point about Zip and Alister, so why would you need Help from someone when you Already know how to do your Job.

The same with Sam, why does she need to be around to Entertain us or be a Damsel in Distress Again just so she can be around to please everyone.

Of course Lara didn't NEED them, she could've done it herself, but she chose to hire others so she could do more with her time. Zip helped Lara with researching people and technical stuff, and Alister did the book work.

She's there because she's a plot device. Lara needed a reason to truck all over the island, she needed more of a cause than "~I've got to get off this island~" and CD chose Sam to be that reason. It's all really not as complicated as you make it, idk why these things are such a hard concept to grasp.

d1n0_xD
26th Jun 2014, 18:43
Im not even going to Respond as to how Rediculas that statement is, why would Lara need an Assistant like Alister to help her Tomb Raiding when Lara is one herself and knows all the research herself

The problem is that your statement is ridiculous. She doesn't need an assistant in Tomb Raiding, did you ever see Alistair or Zip alongside Lara in Legend and Underworld? No, they were always at the mansion, finding information on another location while Lara's doing her stuff elsewhere. That's some time-management, if you ask me, and Lara is smart for having assistants. But noooo, asking for help or having someone to help you is for weaklings... And Lara isn't the only archeologist in the world, you know.

And I think it's a fact (correct me if I'm wrong) that most good stories need to have multiple characters in order to be, you know, good... That's where side-character come in place, they're not the center of the story, but help fill in the blanks.

daventry
26th Jun 2014, 18:47
It seems the Core Games were Poor Games without Assistants or Side-Kicks to fill in the blanks, thus why are Crystal Wasting their time in making TR Games. Oh wait, to Entertain us because we're Bored.
She's there because she's a plot device. Lara needed a reason to truck all over the island, she needed more of a cause than "~I've got to get off this island~" and CD chose Sam to be that reason. It's all really not as complicated as you make it, idk why these things are such a hard concept to grasp.True she was a reason for the Island, but Why did Sam not just DIE there, why Save her, what Purpose does she bring to ROTTR

dark7angel
26th Jun 2014, 18:48
Where's the 'No, but she doesn't have to die' option? :p

I'll go with the only No option though as I do have an opinion and do care to express it, and it's the only option left for me. :nut:

Same here! I don't give a damn about Sam so if she dies great, if she disappears into oblivion never to be heard of again, fine by me! I just don't care enough about her to want her back. She was more a plot device than a character and she continues to be so in the comics so just get rid of her...

EDIT: Apparently she's also a plot device in the novel... I'm really getting tired of Sam...

Valenka
26th Jun 2014, 18:57
The other day you said you were going to do some Gaming thing in witch Congrats, but do i need to Assist you in anything, i mean can you handle yourself in a Job or do i need to help you with something. Im just trying to be Supportive here.

I'm sorry, what?

daventry
26th Jun 2014, 19:00
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=2015847&postcount=21058

Congrats on that :flowers:

d1n0_xD
26th Jun 2014, 19:01
It seems the Core Games were Poor Games without Assistants or Side-Kicks to fill in the blanks, thus why are Crystal Wasting their time in making TR Games.

Hmm, let's see, Core games had Kurtis (who people loved), Wernen von Croy (who was a plot device), multiple side-villains with the main villain (Pierre, Larson with Natla). Even the goddamn Winston was in every game, and people love him and want him back, it's the same thing, man, you're making me sad :(


True she was a reason for the Island, but Why did Sam not just DIE there, why Save her, what Purpose does she bring to ROTTR

Well, that's a 1,000,000$ question right there, guess we'll just have to play the game and see? :D And, while this reboot was dark and gritty, after all the things Lara went through to save her, why would she just die? I mean, yeah, maybe it would damage Lara even more, which would have devastating consequences here on the forums (like, people complaining that Lara's weak because she's crying over the death of her friend, or even that the game sucks because they played the whole game for nothing, Sam just died), so no, thank you. :) Enough people died in that game...

a_big_house
26th Jun 2014, 19:04
We don't even know that Sam will be in Rise - I still believe she'll kick the bucket in the comics. CD also said, the reason they diced to keep Sam alive at the end was so it felt like you accomplished something, i.e. not saving her 30 times just to have her die

daventry
26th Jun 2014, 19:08
If Sam Dies in the Comics and wont make an appearance in ROTTR, then i will throw a Party like you wont believe. :nut:
Hmm, let's see, Core games had Kurtis (who people loved), Wernen von Croy (who was a plot device), multiple side-villains with the main villain (Pierre, Larson with Natla). Even the goddamn Winston was in every game, and people love him and want him back, it's the same thing, man, you're making me sad :(Awesome Villains and Friends that had good back stories and werent Comical or Annoying in anyway. Ok except for Zip in TRC :p

In Truth, im Sick of Natla already, even now on TRF theres talk about Returning Villains and guess who'se First on the List. NATLA. :poke:

Would so want a AOD Remake with Kurtis right now. :hmm:

You know what i find strange about this whole Sam situation, is the fact that Nobody talks about or cares about Reyes and Jonah. Its as if Sam is the Vocal Point in the Industry as if Crystal and in the Comics People want her Desperately to be the Second Lara in Future TR Games. :confused:

Error96_
26th Jun 2014, 20:14
I think it would be good for Lara to have more contacts that can help her out every so often. I vote keep but as supporting cast but hope they don't put her as kidnap victim again.

RybatGrimes
26th Jun 2014, 21:41
Awesome Villains and Friends that had good back stories and werent Comical or Annoying in anyway. Ok except for Zip in TRC :p
https://31.media.tumblr.com/a29a956d7b80ca1e321cdbb4b29e7e8f/tumblr_inline_n7spdiH2911qgigev.jpg

In Truth, im Sick of Natla already, even now on TRF theres talk about Returning Villains and guess who'se First on the List. NATLA. :poke:
Natla is Lara's nemesis, she's her biggest rival, the most polarizing, and memorable villain in the franchise. It makes sense that people would speculate if CD would reboot her since they have once before. :p


You know what i find strange about this whole Sam situation, is the fact that Nobody talks about or cares about Reyes and Jonah. Its as if Sam is the Vocal Point in the Industry as if Crystal and in the Comics People want her Desperately to be the Second Lara in Future TR Games. :confused:

That's mostly due to the fact that they're minor side characters, and well.. we don't know if they're alive or not. Their whereabouts are unknown as of now in the comics. There isn't much going on for the characters, so there's not much to talk about.

daventry
26th Jun 2014, 22:30
I think it would be good for Lara to have more contacts that can help her out every so often. I vote keep but as supporting cast but hope they don't put her as kidnap victim again.Helpful Characters while following Lara around is Helpful indeed. :thumb:



Dident Square at first say they wanted to Kill Sam at the Ceremony, but decided against it.

It would make perfect sense if Sam died before the start of Rise, then it would make even more sense for Lara to wear Sam's jacket at the Therapy.

RybatGrimes
26th Jun 2014, 22:33
Dident Square at first say they wanted to Kill Sam at the Ceremony, but decided against it.

It would've been perfect if Sam had died before the start of Rise, then it would make sense for Lara to wear Sam's jacket at the Therapy.

Yes actually, Crystal had Sam die at the final ritual, we don't know how, but she ended up dying there. But the playtesters thought that it was like a "forced failure" meaning that you spend the entire game chasing after her and trying to rescue her only for her to die, they felt that they were sort of cheating the player. So they re wrote it and left her in. :I

Driber
26th Jun 2014, 22:35
It seems the Core Games were Poor Games without Assistants or Side-Kicks to fill in the blanks, thus why are Crystal Wasting their time in making TR Games. Oh wait, to Entertain us because we're Bored.


Hmm, let's see, Core games had Kurtis (who people loved), Wernen von Croy (who was a plot device), multiple side-villains with the main villain (Pierre, Larson with Natla). Even the goddamn Winston was in every game, and people love him and want him back, it's the same thing, man, you're making me sad :(

Dino has got you game, set and match there, daventry :whistle:


Awesome Villains and Friends that had good back stories and werent Comical or Annoying in anyway. Ok except for Zip in TRC :p


Nice try packpaddling there again, but no dice, amigo :p

Remember Kurtis? Nooooo, not annoying AT ALL...

Oh yez, and zen zer waz of courze herr Von Croy, wiz hiz stereotypical Deutsche axzent und cheezy lines. Vonderbar character. Zat waz not comical AT ALL....

Oh and who could forget the lovable Ahmed. Ah yes, good old Ahmed, what an AMAZING back story that side character had. I really had so much fun reading all those in-game logs where his life story was unfold. So touching... I think I even cried when I read that bit about his daughter being killed in that tragic hunting accident T_T

No offense, but your claim was beyond absurd and has been utterly debunked, I'd say. (And partly thanks to yourself, for naming Zip in TRC as annoying :rasp:)


You know what i find strange about this whole Sam situation, is the fact that Nobody talks about or cares about Reyes and Jonah.

Uhm, maybe because Sam is a bigger side character and gets a lot more airtime than Reyes/Jonah?

a_big_house
26th Jun 2014, 22:36
That's mostly due to the fact that they're minor side characters, and well.. we don't know if they're alive or not. Their whereabouts are unknown as of now in the comics. There isn't much going on for the characters, so there's not much to talk about.

Keeping in mind that I'm still yet to read issue 5, what you say is true, however
We can assume Reyes will still be alive, since she is featured in the artwork for issue 7(?)

But yeah anyway, Sam was the main plot point of TR9 so it makes sense that they'll still want to use her character. On one hand we have us (the fans) seeing and overdose of Sam (comic, book, possibly game) but the for the casual players who enjoyed TR9, they might wonder what happened to everyone else if no one is mentioned...

daventry
26th Jun 2014, 22:40
Yes actually, Crystal had Sam die at the final ritual, we don't know how, but she ended up dying there. But the playtesters thought that it was like a "forced failure" meaning that you spend the entire game chasing after her and trying to rescue her only for her to die, they felt that they were sort of cheating the player. So they re wrote it and left her in. :Ihttp://www.google.co.za/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&docid=_kmkWHIxjWykTM&tbnid=ynFE0kPNrLVg2M:&ved=0CAUQjBw4nQE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gifsoup.com%2Fview%2F117286%2Fnoooooo-o.gif&ei=zqCsU6mjMrTn7AaAyICwAw&psig=AFQjCNEOa1Rs9QkwWuVOemYW-f2v4sQBvg&ust=1403908686905791

RybatGrimes
26th Jun 2014, 22:46
Keeping in mind that I'm still yet to read issue 5, what you say is true, however
We can assume Reyes will still be alive, since she is featured in the artwork for issue 7(?)

But yeah anyway, Sam was the main plot point of TR9 so it makes sense that they'll still want to use her character. On one hand we have us (the fans) seeing and overdose of Sam (comic, book, possibly game) but the for the casual players who enjoyed TR9, they might wonder what happened to everyone else if no one is mentioned...

oHHHH, RIGHT. I forgot about that. But either way, alive or dead, they're not present in the story, or a big part of it. So that's why no one talks about them. :p

a_big_house
26th Jun 2014, 22:48
Yeah... Like the crying you hear coming from the attic... :D

Rai
26th Jun 2014, 22:51
Who the hell was Ahmed? Am I an awful fan for not knowing this?

a_big_house
26th Jun 2014, 22:53
Who the hell was Ahmed? Am I an awful fan for not knowing this?

No idea :lol: Guess we're both awful

Driber
26th Jun 2014, 22:57
I guess you are :p

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121022120639/villains/images/0/09/Ahmed_9.jpg

http://www.tomb-raider.wikia.com/wiki/Ahmed_Ben_Trayal

RybatGrimes
26th Jun 2014, 23:04
"This attitude problem! You people really need to learn some manners." :p

larafan25
26th Jun 2014, 23:14
If you're going to kill Sam off, you have to make us like her first. That was the whole issue with her character. She made Lara look awesome when Lara was saving her ass and expressing true care for another character, yet that other character was... basically a blanket, or a teddy bear. There wasn't anything there for us to see her the way Lara did. Clearly people don't care about Sam's life.

So either make her disappear, or fix the relationship between her and the players so that when you kill her off, it can have meaning.

I'm not so sure if it was a good idea to make other character's lives so crucial in Lara's origin story though. I don't know.

Rai
26th Jun 2014, 23:20
I guess you are :p

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121022120639/villains/images/0/09/Ahmed_9.jpg

http://www.tomb-raider.wikia.com/wiki/Ahmed_Ben_Trayal

This is Ahmed? He had a name? :eek: :lol:. Guess I should write lines 'I must be a better fan'. :p

Metalrocks
27th Jun 2014, 01:21
voted for she should be playable.
why not, a little change would not harm. playing a more weak character just like in RE4 with ashley. or even joker in ME2. just for a short span will do just fine.
or even to reach places lara cant go like small holes only sam can squeeze her self in too.

regarding side characters: they were poorly written anyway. now in the comics i do wonder what has happened with reyes and jonah since we know a bit more of them. if they ever should appear in the next game, i do hope they get fleshed out more. also sam should be fleshed out more. at least now in the latest issue we saw how lara and sam have met but i like to see their progress in the game as well.

sam should live since she is part of developing the story of lara. and is good to see lara has someone she can trust a 100%. but yes, she should not be the kidnap victim again. that would be very lame of CD if they would do that.

IRON LOBSTER
27th Jun 2014, 09:08
Man old school TR fans hate change.

If Sam dies...We riot...

COME ON TEAM SAM!!!

KEEP THOSE VOTES COMING!!!


If anything just to stop this horrible Sam guro.

Tihocan
27th Jun 2014, 09:16
Personally, Sam should not be a part of this simply because I want her to be going out because she wants to, not because she has to.
As for having other cast members, I don't really care. You can make a story with or without (though the latter is much harder - e.g. I Am Legend).
Again my preference would be not, because I'm getting the "angry loner" vibe from her. Perhaps a reluctant trust in a third party would be intriguing.

In the future, I would definitely want to see a more mature Lara with selective alliances that she depends on.

Plot twist: Sam has been possessed by the spirit of Himiko and goes all The Grudge/Ring on Lara

d1n0_xD
27th Jun 2014, 09:30
Plot twist: Sam has been possessed by the spirit of Himiko and goes all The Grudge/Ring on Lara

Now that would be cool, if it happened in TR2013 :D

daventry
27th Jun 2014, 09:40
Sam gets Nightmares about Himiko, then she starts to get strange powers and is starting to act weird.

Later the Trinity Group captures Sam witch leads to a fierce fight with Sam releasing Lightning Bolts, just to have someone shoot her with a sleeping dart.

Now Lara has to go find Sam and find out what this Trinity Group is about.

In the end, we find Sam Possessed in witch Lara fights her and KILLS Sam in the Process.

Now theres your Story, do it like that and you got Game.

d1n0_xD
27th Jun 2014, 09:47
^ That actually makes sense, and I wouldn't mind if it happened (in the comics, of course), and therapy would make sense even more :)

daventry
27th Jun 2014, 09:50
No wonder Lara would be holding Sam's Jacket at the Therapy Session, she could feel Guilty because she has to or she Killed Sam in witch basically the Therapist tells Lara not to lock herself in her Home but a Girl at her age should go out and Explore.

IvanaKC
27th Jun 2014, 11:26
Yes actually, Crystal had Sam die at the final ritual, we don't know how, but she ended up dying there. But the playtesters thought that it was like a "forced failure" meaning that you spend the entire game chasing after her and trying to rescue her only for her to die, they felt that they were sort of cheating the player. So they re wrote it and left her in. :I

Really? I did not know that. That would be so surprising for everyone that I'm sure more players would be motivated to play ROTTR just to see what did Crystal came up with this time. :D


No idea :lol: Guess we're both awful

Make that three of us. :lol:



No wonder Lara would be holding Sam's Jacket at the Therapy Session, she could feel Guilty because she has to or she Killed Sam in witch basically the Therapist tells Lara not to lock herself in her Home but a Girl at her age should go out and Explore.

That is an explanation I would agree with. However, the jacket Lara was wearing in the trailer doesn't look like Sam's jacket at all, if that's what you're implying to.

daventry
27th Jun 2014, 11:30
Yea the Jacket thing has been discussed to death, thus i would assume its just a Jacket so Lara can Remember Sam wearing a similar one.

Anyway, if Crystal can pull of a Story with Sam instead of Focusing her as the Damsel in Distress, then im all for it if she Dies at the end so we can get on with Lara Croft in TR3, instead of just killing Sam off from ROTTR for no reason.

The Comics need to do something in their Issue that will make Sam Not appear in ROTTR if thats the case.

dark7angel
27th Jun 2014, 12:48
I believe that this due to the thing that I have been warning about forever here (but nobody seemed to care about) : Lara is too iconic for her own good: they won't give her a real character out of fear that there would be too many people not liking the perticular direction they would take with her. Ergo: the unestablished supportive character (Sam) who does have room to grow as a character takes over the story and the burden of character development and story arc falls on her.

Sorry for bringing this back, but I have to disagree. We can argue weather it was well done or not but we can't deny that Lara had character development on TR9. Sam on the other hand remained pretty much the same throughout the story, serving more as a plot device to propel Lara's arc. So I fail to see how you can say that Sam grew more as a character than Lara... :scratch:

d1n0_xD
27th Jun 2014, 13:11
^ Agreed with dark7angel, I'm currently replaying TR and Lara's constantly developing, from her resourcefulness to emotions... I'm watching a cutscene, and Lara used her shotgun to make the ceiling fall on enemies and I'm like "Wow, she quickly found a solution to slow down enemies", and you can see it too, in all those little details... Sam on the other hand appears in some cutscenes and her dialogue consists of "Help, Lara!" and "I'm so glad you're alive, Lara."

Driber
27th Jun 2014, 13:14
^ Ditto. The idea that Samsel has better character development than Lara is crazy - that women is just an easy plot device and is as useless as can be. Well okay, maybe she's developing... into a more useless being as before, if that is even possible :p


This is Ahmed? He had a name? :eek: :lol:. Guess I should write lines 'I must be a better fan'. :p

Yes, and can you even believe his surname? Ben Trayal! LOL, yeah... another totally not comical thing in the classic games (:p @ daventry)

And yes, get cracking! http://driber.net/os/whip.gif

:D


Man old school TR fans hate change.

If Sam dies...We riot...

COME ON TEAM SAM!!!

KEEP THOSE VOTES COMING!!!


If anything just to stop this horrible Sam guro.

What on earth makes you think it's old school TR fans that are on "team Sam"?

If anything, it's the newer fans that are Sam crazy :nut:

You think that I am an "old school" fan, and that I was supporting the "if Sam dies, we riot" thing because earlier in this thread I was referring to that riot thread and mentioning "having fun"? LOL, think again http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=141386 :rasp:


I believe that this due to the thing that I have been warning about forever here (but nobody seemed to care about) : Lara is too iconic for her own good: they won't give her a real character out of fear that there would be too many people not liking the perticular direction they would take with her.

If you feel that nobody cares, perhaps that is because your theory -- which you often presumptuously present as a solid fact -- is completely baseless and founded only on pure speculation and cynicism. You have absolutely no idea what CD is afraid of.

I would actually say that we have evidence of the opposite - with the reboot Crystal has well proven that they are in fact not afraid to ruffle the feathers of the fans and actually do take pretty bold and risky steps to fix what once was a dying franchise :whistle:

d1n0_xD
27th Jun 2014, 13:17
I would actually say that we have evidence of the opposite - with the reboot Crystal has well proven that they are in fact not afraid to ruffle the feathers of the fans and actually do take pretty bold and risky steps to fix what once was a dying franchise :whistle:

Gotta agree with this :thumb:

daventry
27th Jun 2014, 13:26
I would actually say that we have evidence of the opposite - with the reboot Crystal has well proven that they are in fact not afraid to ruffle the feathers of the fans and actually do take pretty bold and risky steps to fix what once was a dying franchise :whistle:This is what i and many others have been telling Crystal for Years, stop hiding away if you think you can do better and just DO IT.

I mean look at TR2013, Finally a TR Game worth playing, except for the Rambo esque and the Over Swearing and the White Stuff plus Hints and the Lame Damsel in Distress with an Ending that played for me.

I infact Enjoyed that Game.

Jurre
27th Jun 2014, 13:30
Sorry for bringing this back, but I have to disagree. We can argue weather it was well done or not but we can't deny that Lara had character development on TR9. Sam on the other hand remained pretty much the same throughout the story, serving more as a plot device to propel Lara's arc. So I fail to see how you can say that Sam grew more as a character than Lara... :scratch:

It's a number of things: first: Lara may have an arc but it's little more than going from dull girl to dull girl who can fight. She's a workaholic, but other than that I can hardly tell anything about her. Yeah, she's also brave and determined and loyal to friends and such, but sorry; that is something that is to be expected from an action hero: every video game hero is like that, it doesn't qualify as a distinct personality. For the most time she just wanders around without any passion in her voice...

Sam has a tiny bit more of a personality: lighthearted, optimistic epicurean, and I can tell some of her hobbies: filming and going out.

Then: in the ensuing stories after TR9 Sam shows up a little too often as one would expect from a supportive character. Like that novel that they announced lately: according to the synopsis it's about Sam getting sick and needs to be rescued. I don't know what her role in the comics is: haven't read those, but I guess she's got a significant role in those...

That's basicly it; for the record: I'm not saying Sam has already taken over the franchise, but I feel it's focus may be shifting towards her. Fortunately she didn't show up in the teaser: were that the case I would really think the writers have lost their focus...

Driber
27th Jun 2014, 13:33
^ I disagree. If anyone of the two, it's Sam who is a "dull" character.

And way to dismiss the introvert type as having a "flat" character there, Jurre.


This is what i and many others have been telling Crystal for Years, stop hiding away if you think you can do better and just DO IT.

I mean look at TR2013, Finally a TR Game worth playing, except for the Rambo esque and the Over Swearing and the White Stuff plus Hints and the Lame Damsel in Distress with an Ending that played for me.

I infact Enjoyed that Game.

Your points continue to make no sense, dude :/

If you're going to list TR9 as a "good example", maybe you shouldn't follow it up with a laundry list of what you consider to be faults :nut:

And no one is "hiding". You're just not getting what you personally want. That is something completely different.

daventry
27th Jun 2014, 13:36
Im not listing TR9 as a good example, im saying i Enjoyed the Game ;)

d1n0_xD
27th Jun 2014, 13:37
This is what i and many others have been telling Crystal for Years, stop hiding away if you think you can do better and just DO IT.

I mean look at TR2013, Finally a TR Game worth playing, except for the Rambo esque and the Over Swearing and the White Stuff plus Hints and the Lame Damsel in Distress with an Ending that played for me.

I infact Enjoyed that Game.

So many contradictions xD Over swearing? She barely said an s-word twice :eek:

daventry
27th Jun 2014, 13:39
Not her, them, the Enemies. :rolleyes:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1956099&postcount=565

d1n0_xD
27th Jun 2014, 13:42
^ They are brutal madmen, of course they swear... But I still wouldn't call it over-the-top, they were mostly surprised and panicked how they can't stop Lara, rather than swearing all the time.

Driber
27th Jun 2014, 13:42
Im not listing TR9 as a good example, im saying i Enjoyed the Game ;)

"Finally a TR Game worth playing" ~ Daventry

^ That's obviously listing TR9 as a good example.

(Even though, as Dino said, your point was riddled with contradictions (as usual) :p)

daventry
27th Jun 2014, 13:49
^ They are brutal madmen, of course they swear... But I still wouldn't call it over-the-top, they were mostly surprised and panicked how they can't stop Lara, rather than swearing all the time.They did Swear all the time, i would hide behind something just listening to them where it was clear and calm, yet every second word out of their Mouths was F this and F that :rolleyes:

Metalrocks
27th Jun 2014, 14:09
They did Swear all the time, i would hide behind something just listening to them where it was clear and calm, yet every second word out of their Mouths was F this and F that :rolleyes:

are you sure you played TR? i cant remember that much profanity from the enemies. even in calm situations.

Driber
27th Jun 2014, 14:11
are you sure you played TR? i cant remember that much profanity from the enemies. even in calm situations.

As I explained before, a lot of people don't realize just how much swearing there was in TR9 because they didn't hear it, or simply didn't pay attention to it.

Play the game with subtitles on. You'll notice the difference ;)

Metalrocks
27th Jun 2014, 14:22
As I explained before, a lot of people don't realize just how much swearing there was in TR9 because they didn't hear it, or simply didn't pay attention to it.

Play the game with subtitles on. You'll notice the difference ;)

lol, maybe in combat, but i cant focus on what they are saying when im busy with shooting at them. they can say what ever they want, they are down eventually for using bad language in front of a lady. :p

but i think i will fit the latter of your comment.

Driber
27th Jun 2014, 14:29
maybe in combat

No, not just in combat.


i cant focus on what they are saying when im busy with shooting at them.

Thank you for helping me prove my point :lol:

dark7angel
27th Jun 2014, 14:39
It's a number of things: first: Lara may have an arc but it's little more than going from dull girl to dull girl who can fight. She's a workaholic, but other than that I can hardly tell anything about her. Yeah, she's also brave and determined and loyal to friends and such, but sorry; that is something that is to be expected from an action hero: every video game hero is like that, it doesn't qualify as a distinct personality. For the most time she just wanders around without any passion in her voice...

Sam has a tiny bit more of a personality: lighthearted, optimistic epicurean, and I can tell some of her hobbies: filming and going out.

Then: in the ensuing stories after TR9 Sam shows up a little too often as one would expect from a supportive character. Like that novel that they announced lately: according to the synopsis it's about Sam getting sick and needs to be rescued. I don't know what her role in the comics is: haven't read those, but I guess she's got a significant role in those...

That's basicly it; for the record: I'm not saying Sam has already taken over the franchise, but I feel it's focus may be shifting towards her. Fortunately she didn't show up in the teaser: were that the case I would really think the writers have lost their focus...

Yeah no, just because Lara is an introvert and Sam an extrovert doesn't make Sam a better character with actual character development which is what we are talking about. I can understand if you prefer extroverted characters, but c'mon, to say something like "the burden of character development [...] falls on [Sam]" when her character does not have any is crazy!!! :nut:

Jurre
27th Jun 2014, 15:12
Yeah no, just because Lara is an introvert and Sam an extrovert doesn't make Sam a better character with actual character development which is what we are talking about. I can understand if you prefer extroverted characters, but c'mon, to say something like "the burden of character development [...] falls on [Sam]" when her character does not have any is crazy!!! :nut:

Introverted? That's like calling an ugly painting that hangs upside down postmoderism... What you call an introverted character I call lazy writing.

But you know what? Thinking about it I was reminded that most games, films and whatnot who have fantastic writing mostly have far more interesting side characters than they do have protagonists. A film like Star Wars, and games like Heavenly Sword, the Batman Arkham series, the Mass Effect series and Far Cry 3 all have a fantastic cast of unique and memorable side characters, but their protagonists are the dullest of them all... So maybe my conclusion that Lara is not a very interesting character and is in danger of being overshadowed by the side characters is not so much an accusation to the TR writing team, but... well... pretty much the way it always goes...

dark7angel
27th Jun 2014, 15:19
^I'm sorry, I just fail to see how you can call the TR side characters (especially SAM) more interesting than Lara. I found them dull and unmemorable tbh!

Metalrocks
27th Jun 2014, 15:24
^I'm sorry, I just fail to see how you can call the TR side characters (especially SAM) more interesting than Lara. I found them dull and unmemorable tbh!

have to agree with you. the side characters are poorly written. if there names woulndt be mentioned here, i still would not know who they are.

Jurre
27th Jun 2014, 15:25
^I'm sorry, I just fail to see how you can call the TR side characters (especially SAM) more interesting than Lara. I found them dull and unmemorable tbh!

I'm not saying they're good... An analogy: a man with four hairs on his head is less bald than one with two hairs...

d1n0_xD
27th Jun 2014, 15:55
Play the game with subtitles on. You'll notice the difference ;)

I'm playing with subtitles, and I did notice swear words, but not too many. But like you said, maybe it's because I don't mind it that much or is in the heat of the battle. Then again, I played Prototype 2 and that game used swearing all the time to the point of me not playing the game. I don't mind swearing, I love it actually, it can really deepen the emotion or situation you're in, or have a comical effect, but when it's used left and right, it's just wrong XD So I think TR level of swearing is a fine level of swearing, but that's just my opinion. Maybe tone it down a bit (I seriously wouldn't know how to tone it down if I was a dev), but do not exclude it from the game.

daventry
27th Jun 2014, 16:33
We need Bait

Driber
27th Jun 2014, 16:44
^ Those texts are way too tiny, dude. You gotta make it at least 3 times bigger font size if you want people to read it :)


I'm playing with subtitles, and I did notice swear words, but not too many. But like you said, maybe it's because I don't mind it that much or is in the heat of the battle. Then again, I played Prototype 2 and that game used swearing all the time to the point of me not playing the game. I don't mind swearing, I love it actually, it can really deepen the emotion or situation you're in, or have a comical effect, but when it's used left and right, it's just wrong XD So I think TR level of swearing is a fine level of swearing, but that's just my opinion. Maybe tone it down a bit (I seriously wouldn't know how to tone it down if I was a dev), but do not exclude it from the game.

Hey, tell it to Daventry, man. I wasn't interested in yet another debate on if the swearing in TR9 was too much / just right / not enough :D

I was just saying that people who claim there wasn't much, are wrong :p

chriss_99
27th Jun 2014, 16:52
I'd like Lara to go on a self-discovery trip.
I was never fond of Sam If you ask me, Amanda seemed much more interesting.
I'm sure we'll have some supporting cast due to multiplayer mode that is inevitable.

RybatGrimes
27th Jun 2014, 20:03
^I'm sorry, I just fail to see how you can call the TR side characters (especially SAM) more interesting than Lara. I found them dull and unmemorable tbh!

Woah... it's almost as if... people have... different opinions. :eek:

sawyerburke
27th Jun 2014, 20:59
If you're going to kill Sam off, you have to make us like her first. That was the whole issue with her character. She made Lara look awesome when Lara was saving her ass and expressing true care for another character, yet that other character was... basically a blanket, or a teddy bear. There wasn't anything there for us to see her the way Lara did. Clearly people don't care about Sam's life.

So either make her disappear, or fix the relationship between her and the players so that when you kill her off, it can have meaning.

I'm not so sure if it was a good idea to make other character's lives so crucial in Lara's origin story though. I don't know.

Completely 100% agree. I think just killing her off in the comics would be a horrible idea. If Sam is to die, she needs to be liked first, so that we can understand how it impacts Lara. It should be a huge part of Lara's story not a shoddy side story written to please the fanbase.

Tihocan
28th Jun 2014, 05:12
Sam has a tiny bit more of a personality: lighthearted, optimistic epicurean, and I can tell some of her hobbies: filming and going out.


Lara is guarded, loyal, determined, focused, passionate about knowledge, fierce when provoked and often dull - the way I see it, like she has always been.

The only difference I see between Lara of 1996 and Lara of 2013 is the former has gained much confidence and a cocky snark.


Well, you have my total attention now. I'm not quite sure if I've got yours though... hello?
Yuh huh...

What you call an introverted character I call lazy writing...
That's a bit of a generalisation. It's significantly easier to write an introverted character, as you can get inside their heads, than it is to portray them.
Not having any outward personality is a personality.

That's a very interesting theory regarding the supporting characters. Perhaps if the main character is intentionally lacking something, but the supporting cast makes up for it - what do we end up with? "Relatability by default?" Maybe so we don't internalise on the main character but look elsewhere for story? I don't actually know, but it's an interesting thought.

Driber
28th Jun 2014, 09:39
^ I agree with most of your points, darksaiyan.

Just like we can name personality traits of Sam, so can we just as easily name personality traits of Lara. If not more.

And I think you're right that Lara has always had a outwards personality that some people may classify as "dull", and that by no means translates to being a dull *fictional character*.

Yeah, Sam has some hobbies which can be named. We can also easily name some of Lara's hobbies:

- archaeology
- traveling
- reading

So yeah, I think Jurre totally missed the mark on that one.

And regarding the claim that it's easier to write an introvert character than it is to write an extrovert character, I have to go ahead and disagree with that, too. I would actually say that it can be much easier to write a character like the stereotypical party girl who gets drunk on weekends (just watch any reality TV show like Jersey Shore and you'll have an instant plethora of material to base your character on :D) than it is to write an introvert character, who typically have a less shallow personality than the typical extrovert character.

To be clear - I'm talking about *fictional* characters here. So don't anyone go assuming that I'm generalizing *real* people :p


Woah... it's almost as if... people have... different opinions. :eek:

It's not just a matter of personal opinions here. We're having this discussion because Jurre claimed that Lara has NO hobbies, NO personality traits, etc. And that it simply false.

Of course we can argue about who we find more "likable", "interesting", etc, because you're right - that is a matter of opinion and there isn't really any "right" or "wrong", but it is something different to make false statements like Lara being a more flat character than Sam because the former has no hobbies or personality traits that can be named, and then even taking it further by calling it "lazy writing".

Tihocan
28th Jun 2014, 10:11
... regarding the claim that it's easier to write an introvert character than it is to write an extrovert character...

I meant easier than to portray one - that is, acting / scripting. Introverted characters might be immensely deep and engaging, but to show a screen audience that would (as far as I expect) be quite a challenge.

Extroverted characters would be (somewhat) simple because all of their character is revealed in their actions and words and - though they may have intelligent thought - much else is often unnecessary.

d1n0_xD
28th Jun 2014, 10:32
And I really liked Lara's geekiness when finding all those relics or story-driven tombs, so there's that :)

IRON LOBSTER
28th Jun 2014, 11:13
@Driber

I meant in that it seems that old school TR fans that didn't get on with the reboot also don't like Sam.

They are resistant to change in the context of not liking new characters hence all the Sam hate.

It also seems that the more people dislike Sam, the more coverage she gets in the comics and now the upcoming book. Someone out there is trolling lol.


Whatever, I think it's funny. Sam's awesome WOOO!!!

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
28th Jun 2014, 12:16
To be fair, as bland and lame as Sam was, she wasn't even the worst character in the game, that "award" goes to the rest of the Endurance crew (Whitman, Alex, Grim, Reyes, Jonah) - those people were flat out unbearable, laughably grotesque and obnoxious.
Sam at least knew when to shut up (between the "save me, oh courageous Lara!" scenes) and to be honest, she was never anything else than a MacGuffin, an excuse for Lara to traverse the island. I once mentioned Sam might as well have been a golden necklace or some other artifact and none would notice the difference...

Anyway, back to the point: Lara needs no sidekicks. Period. Strong supporting characters are fine, but Sam, Reyes, Jonah are by no means interesting. Neither of them should appear in the sequel, if you ask me.

Metalrocks
28th Jun 2014, 13:03
Anyway, back to the point: Lara needs no sidekicks. Period. Strong supporting characters are fine, but Sam, Reyes, Jonah are by no means interesting. Neither of them should appear in the sequel, if you ask me.

maybe not as sidekicks but dont you think if they dont appear in the next game, that would ask your self what happened with them? i do agree that they are not interesting but thats because they were poorly described who they are. i rather have them been better explained then just being a little side character who does mess around a bit in the background.
this is what i hope will be the case in the next title. especially sam has to be better explained who she is and why she is so important to lara. the last issue of the comic did do that but still not good enough.

dark7angel
28th Jun 2014, 13:19
maybe not as sidekicks but dont you think if they dont appear in the next game, that would ask your self what happened with them?

Not necessarily, all it would take would be a couple of lines saying that after Yamatai (twice if we count the comics) they didn't want anything to do with tomb raiding anymore. :p

Metalrocks
28th Jun 2014, 13:31
Not necessarily, all it would take would be a couple of lines saying that after Yamatai (twice if we count the comics) they didn't want anything to do with tomb raiding anymore. :p

:lol:
i dont think they will be following lara where she is going. as supportive characters like preparing her gear or get the equipment she needs, this i can imagine.
hell, jonah could be a pilot and drop off lara where ever she needs to go.

d1n0_xD
28th Jun 2014, 13:34
^ Yeah, Alex could be like Zip... oh, wait :p

dark7angel
28th Jun 2014, 13:37
:lol:
i dont think they will be following lara where she is going. as supportive characters like preparing her gear or get the equipment she needs, this i can imagine.
hell, jonah could be a pilot and drop off lara where ever she needs to go.

Jonah was the cook in the Endurance, we don't even know if he has a pilot licence. :rasp:
Sam is pretty useless and I wouldn't trust her to prepare any gear. She would probably just shoot herself on the process! XD
And Reyes has better things to do than to get involved with Lara's business since she doesn't even like her.

Really, I don't see the need to bring them back... :p

Driber
28th Jun 2014, 15:09
@Driber

I meant in that it seems that old school TR fans that didn't get on with the reboot also don't like Sam.

They are resistant to change in the context of not liking new characters hence all the Sam hate.

There are a lot of things wrong with Samsel. It doesn't require being an "old school TR fan" to dislike her, at all.

BTW, stubborn old school TR fans who don't want to give new characters a chance are just as bad as new TR fans who put new characters on a pedestal and mock the old games, if you ask me.

And I'm just glad I fall in neither of those categories :p


It also seems that the more people dislike Sam, the more coverage she gets in the comics and now the upcoming book. Someone out there is trolling lol.

I doubt it, lol.

I'm assuming you're joking, but in case not - what do you base your theory on, exactly?

daventry
28th Jun 2014, 15:25
Who'se Samsel :nut:

Metalrocks
28th Jun 2014, 15:33
Jonah was the cook in the Endurance, we don't even know if he has a pilot licence. :rasp:
Sam is pretty useless and I wouldn't trust her to prepare any gear. She would probably just shoot herself on the process! XD
And Reyes has better things to do than to get involved with Lara's business since she doesn't even like her.

Really, I don't see the need to bring them back... :p

who said that sam has to prepare gears, weapons etc? she can deal with communications or prepare all travels, etc. something not mechanic. :whistle:
jonah can get a license later on.
reyes doesnt like lara, this we know, but who knows, maybe she will stick around since she needs money to support her daughter and lara could use someone who is mechanically gifted who can be also her weapons expert. just saying ;)


Who'se Samsel :nut:

short for "sam is damsel in distress".

IRON LOBSTER
28th Jun 2014, 15:50
The current story arc in the comics revolves around Lara looking for Sam and rescuing her.

The upcoming book is about Lara rescuing Sam.

If anything the Underpus plushy needs saving.

Driber
28th Jun 2014, 16:09
If dark7angel wouldn't trust Sam to pack gear and weapons, why on earth would she trust Sam in charge of something as crucial as communication :lol:

And sure, give Jonah a freaking pilot license out of nowhere, just to keep him part of the crew. What kind of argument is that :p

daventry
28th Jun 2014, 16:13
The current story arc in the comics revolves around Lara looking for Sam and rescuing her.

The upcoming book is about Lara rescuing Sam.
Crystal is truly Trolling us to convince Sam should be in ROTTR, tell me is it working. :confused:

Metalrocks
28th Jun 2014, 17:07
If dark7angel wouldn't trust Sam to pack gear and weapons, why on earth would she trust Sam in charge of something as crucial as communication :lol:

And sure, give Jonah a freaking pilot license out of nowhere, just to keep him part of the crew. What kind of argument is that :p

just a quick idea. never said i was serious about it. :rolleyes:

Thetford
28th Jun 2014, 20:06
For the entire game, your Samsel was in another castle, the moment you get near to her, she completely buggered off again.

Driber
28th Jun 2014, 22:02
just a quick idea. never said i was serious about it. :rolleyes:

Between dark7angel's post, your post, and my post, yours was the most serious of them all :lol:

Murphdawg1
28th Jun 2014, 23:52
We don't even know that Sam will be in Rise - I still believe she'll kick the bucket in the comics. CD also said, the reason they diced to keep Sam alive at the end was so it felt like you accomplished something, i.e. not saving her 30 times just to have her die

Yeah I don't think Sam makes it out of the comic series alive.

NSW_pride
29th Jun 2014, 04:16
I don't care what they do with Sam. And as for having Sam as a playable character. Get outta here!

Metalrocks
29th Jun 2014, 05:44
Between dark7angel's post, your post, and my post, yours was the most serious of them all :lol:

:lol: was not intended at all. sure, it was a clarification to my idea but still not intended to implement my idea as being serious.
well, now we got that out of the way.

Driber
29th Jun 2014, 09:56
:lol: was not intended at all. sure, it was a clarification to my idea but still not intended to implement my idea as being serious.

So both dark7angel and I were responding in a non-serious manner to your non-serious intended post, so what the hell are you annoyed about, man :p

Metalrocks
29th Jun 2014, 13:25
So both dark7angel and I were responding in a non-serious manner to your non-serious intended post, so what the hell are you annoyed about, man :p

didnt know i came across as annoyed. all i did was clarifying my idea.

Driber
29th Jun 2014, 14:20
didnt know i came across as annoyed. all i did was clarifying my idea.

LMAO noooooo, not that (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=2023218&postcount=91) post. This (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=2023229&postcount=95) one with the annoyed emoticon, lol.

Chocolate_shake
29th Jun 2014, 14:33
Yes ! Kill her off already ! She is like a heavy chain tied to Lara not letting her move forward .

AdobeArtist
29th Jun 2014, 18:25
Im not even going to Respond as to how Rediculas that statement is, why would Lara need an Assistant like Alister to help her Tomb Raiding when Lara is one herself and knows all the research herself.

The point of Zip was Only Needed for that one Russian Level, so why do Lara need Comical Characters to Entertain herself throughout TRL/TRU

Do we really need Sidekicks in a Game, why cant we be ourselves and play the Game we paid for.

Im the Sidekick behind the Control and that is my Character im playing with.


The problem is that your statement is ridiculous. She doesn't need an assistant in Tomb Raiding, did you ever see Alistair or Zip alongside Lara in Legend and Underworld? No, they were always at the mansion, finding information on another location while Lara's doing her stuff elsewhere. That's some time-management, if you ask me, and Lara is smart for having assistants. But noooo, asking for help or having someone to help you is for weaklings... And Lara isn't the only archeologist in the world, you know.


I share the position that nobody, no matter how good, can really take on an entire mission/crusade/assignment entirely on their own. Unless we're talking capabilities way beyond human.

Everybody needs some form of support, weather that's manpower, moral, or emotional.

Just look at Batman, the most self reliant and driven ass kicker in the DC universe; even where he's solo without Robin, Alfred's support and aid is invaluable to him.

As extraordinary as Lara is (and this isn't in question) she's still not Superhuman, nor should she be.




Yeah, Sam has some hobbies which can be named. We can also easily name some of Lara's hobbies:

- archaeology
- traveling
- reading



Nah, that's all occupational stuff. To be a hobby it should be about interests outside vocational field. The books might count IF we're talking Michael Crichton, John Grisham, Issac Asimov, George R. Martin, or hell even Danielle Steele. But if it's all just research material, then it's an extension of her work.

And this is a point of character development I've always advocated. That good development has a character fleshed out that there is more to them than just what we see on the surface; that there should be more to them then just their occupation or adventuring.

Just look at Spiderman and his passion for the sciences. It has nothing to do with him putting on a costume and catching criminals. It's what Parker was always into before he became Spiderman and remains important to him. Or Tony Stark with gambling. Sherlock Holmes played the violin in his spare time.

The Crew of the Enterprise is another great example; Riker was into Jazz music, Data with his artistic pursuits of painting, Doc Crusher leading drama troupes, Picard's passion for Shakespear and later picking up music (from that episode the Inner Light), and even how the crew gets together for their poker games.

I say what really makes a character interesting isn't so much with how awesome they are at saving the city/world/galaxy, but rather all the little in between moments that are the most revealing of their personality. Seeing what they enjoy in their down time (and there's always down time) and what makes them tick that shows us more than just the outward action makes them more believable, and the the kind of people we can connect with.

So always always give us more than just the surface of a character, give us insight into what goes on beneath :) :wave:


Yes ! Kill her off already ! She is like a heavy chain tied to Lara not letting her move forward .

No no, oh HELL NO!!

Ain't NOBODY killing Sam. Not on MY watch!!!

http://thumb10.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/56615/56615,1213549904,3/stock-photo-young-man-suggesting-a-secret-service-agent-or-secret-policeman-appears-to-be-reaching-for-a-weapon-13780453.jpg

Driber
29th Jun 2014, 20:50
^ Occupation related or not, they are still hobbies of Lara. You can't deny that. Just because they are occupation related doesn't mean you can dismiss them as being irrelevant. In fact, I'm sure those hobbies in turn inspired Lara to do what she does for a living ;)

And FYI, the only reason I listed them was to debunk Jurre's claim that Sam has hobbies while Lara doesn't. (Which actually makes it kinda ironic that you're chosing only to respond to me with a dismissal of Lara's hobbies, while ignoring Jurre listing Sam's filming as a hobby, which according to your logic should be dismissed as well because that too would be 'occupational' :whistle:)

As for your Star Trek analogy - you already said the exact same thing last year in a discussion about character development and I already back then told you that it's a false analogy because Star Trek TNG was a veeeeeeery different format than TR9. But I guess you forgot :p

Your overall point about more character development being good, I don't disagree with, though. So you're kinda preaching to the choir anyway, lol.

d1n0_xD
29th Jun 2014, 21:04
Yeah, I wanted to say that Lara turned her hobbies into a profession too :p Like I said previously, her geekiness in TR2013 was so cute to me :D

daventry
29th Jun 2014, 21:32
5 Vote Points to go on the Tomb Raider Forums, then its 100 Votes to Kill Off Sam, man those guys REALLY Hate Sam :lmao:

They say the Comics make Sam Annoying and Persistant as Hell, lets hope Crystal see that Fans Clearly does Not want to make her the standing point in ROTTR, thus she could just appear in a Cutscene or just Die in the Comics where Lara feels sort of Guilty in the Game.

Metalrocks
30th Jun 2014, 06:49
@adobe
but you can integrate a hobby with your occupation. angry joe for example makes a living by reviewing games and its his hobby at the same time.

otherwise i agree with the character development and see nothing wrong with your star trek reference.

oh, and im right next to you that sam should never be killed off by anyone;).
jgwutw_report-1-in-10-secret-service-agents-aware-of-security-concern-due-to-colleagues-excess-drinking.jpg

daventry
30th Jun 2014, 07:06
Sam Raider, this should not happen people, not her In Game and not with the Clothes she is wearing.

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
30th Jun 2014, 08:19
Sam Raider


:lol:
Maybe that was Crystal's plan all along.:D

Tihocan
30th Jun 2014, 08:27
^ Occupation related or not, they are still hobbies of Lara.

Turning your hobby into an occupation would be the dream job, for most.

WhoWeReMeantToBe
30th Jun 2014, 10:08
Why can't the gaming public just trust the content creators to create the content..?
And then vote with their wallets as to whether they like it or not.

I personally like Sam. But it won't let me vote as of me writing this.

Metalrocks
30th Jun 2014, 10:51
Why can't the gaming public just trust the content creators to create the content..?
And then vote with their wallets as to whether they like it or not.

I personally like Sam. But it won't let me vote as of me writing this.

welcome to the forum. :wave:

to vote, i think you need a certain amount of comments, so as having a signature and avatar.

Driber
30th Jun 2014, 11:40
Sam Raider, this should not happen people, not her In Game and not with the Clothes she is wearing.



Dear mother of god, people would go berserk if this happens :lol:


Yeah, I wanted to say that Lara turned her hobbies into a profession too :p


Turning your hobby into an occupation would be the dream job, for most.

Yup and yup :)

AdobeArtist
30th Jun 2014, 18:13
Maybe I'm just arguing semantics here, but when you take your hobby and turn it into your occupation, it basically becomes "more than just a hobby". So when I say hobbies, I'm really talking about the activities outside the profession, or during the down time in other words.

Sure we can identify Lara's occupational activities as simultaneously being her hobby, in the form of a passion turned into a living. But I submit; is that really enough? Is archaeology and exploring really all there is to Lara as a person? I should hope not.

So my original point still stands and to that end I say let's not settle for less. A more diversified person is a far more interesting person. So by all means, let's see CD expand on her interests and passions, and show us that there is more to her than just being an archaeologist. I don't think there can be "too much" diversification in her characterization.

Sure those other interests will more often take a back seat to her primary vocation, but from time to time, every adventurer needs to unwind. And those are the more revealing aspects to a persons inner nature.

Rai
30th Jun 2014, 18:24
This all started with Jurre saying Sam is more interesting by citing her hobbies: Filming and going out. Filming is her job, something she trained for in the hope of finding work out of it, so I don't think this still qualifies as a hobby anymore than archeology was a hobby for Lara. Which leaves 'going out' by which I presume he means partying. Is this really seen as a proper 'hobby'? I would see this as a way of relaxing, letting her hair down after school/work, sure. Lara's alternative way to relax is reading, even if much of that is still history/myths or whatever. Lara likes to travel to historical sites in her spare time off from school/work, which can be seen as a hobby (while she was at Uni/work). Of course Lara also travels for work (archeological digs/exhibitions), but so far in her life, these trips to the Wall of China, Kilimanjaro (comics) where she and Sam have enjoyed camping trips or to climb Mount Snowdon with Roth, have been for fun. So yeah :p. [/piping in at end conversation probs not helping at all]

Driber
30th Jun 2014, 18:28
@Adobe, I really don't understand why you insist on keep on making the same argument when no one is contradicting you on that point. Tell me, where have you seen anyone here say "we know too much about Lara, we don't want to know more about Lara's hobbies"? You seem to be arguing against an invisible person, heh.

@Rai: You said it perfectly :thumb:

d1n0_xD
30th Jun 2014, 18:30
Yeah, we sure wanna know more, it's just that we were defending Lara from Jurre's statements that Sam has more personality traits than Lara.

AdobeArtist
30th Jun 2014, 18:58
Well... if we're all unanimous that we want to see more in Lara, let's just be sure that Rhianna is reading this topic (among others)

:whistle::whistle: :wave::wave:

And back on main topic, I will NOT allow anyone to get rid of Sam. Never, you hear me, NEVERRRRRRRR, GRRRRRR.

Rai
30th Jun 2014, 20:08
Well... if we're all unanimous that we want to see more in Lara, let's just be sure that Rhianna is reading this topic (among others)

:whistle::whistle: :wave::wave:

And back on main topic, I will NOT allow anyone to get rid of Sam. Never, you hear me, NEVERRRRRRRR, GRRRRRR.

Major Comic Issue 6 spoilers:
jojfid_Ghostly-Sammm.jpg
I'm so so sorry to be the one to break it to you. :(

Or http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/jumper.gif
as the case may be.

AdobeArtist
30th Jun 2014, 20:18
Lara failed Casper. No biggie :p

Rai
30th Jun 2014, 20:23
I was going for a sort of glowy effect over Sam, but failed my editing self taught class, so I went with the casper effect. :p

PS: Couldn't you tell it's her halloween outfit :whistle:

IRON LOBSTER
30th Jun 2014, 21:26
But Sam takes Lara clubbing and takes her mind off the pressures of being an up and coming archaeologist!

Without Sam, Lara would be unhappy!

No one wants sad Lara being sad...


Sam is awesome like Jaffa Cakes.

SHE IS LARA'S JAFFA CAKE!!!

Gitb97
30th Jun 2014, 21:51
Kill her off. I've said it before but she's a hindrance.

IRON LOBSTER
30th Jun 2014, 22:04
No Jaffa Cakes for you :rasp:

Tihocan
1st Jul 2014, 00:46
Jaffa! Kree!

Rai
1st Jul 2014, 01:26
But Sam takes Lara clubbing and takes her mind off the pressures of being an up and coming archaeologist!

Without Sam, Lara would be unhappy!

No one wants sad Lara being sad...


Sam is awesome like Jaffa Cakes.

SHE IS LARA'S JAFFA CAKE!!!

Lara had at least one box of jaffas in most of the comic issues so far, in the last one, several. She don't need no poor substitute.

I have to admit, Sam didn't bother me too much in TR'13. Sure she managed to get caught twice, but her's and Lara's friendship was quite sweet. And then in the comics they were all in danger and Sam was just part of it...until she got herself kidnapped again. But she redeemed herself briefly in the Lara/Sam @Uni panels. My dislike for her has slowly grown. So far she's appeared in one game (and didn't even get that much screen time), the comics and it seems the novel too and she's already wearing out her welcome. It's like that last guest at a party that just.won't.leave. :p. And, tbh you're not doing her any favours likening her to Jaffa cakes. Jaffa cakes are luscious biscuits that you need more of...Sam is just Silly And Mindless, tbh. Bless :p.

IRON LOBSTER
1st Jul 2014, 08:39
Darksaiyan's a fellow Jaffa Cake *brofist*

IRON LOBSTER
1st Jul 2014, 11:16
@Driber

So the anti-Sam threads win then T_T?

Or can you move the 'Riot' thread from the TR 2013 forum and add the poll from the closed one to it please?

Driber
1st Jul 2014, 11:40
^ I'm not thinking in terms of "winning".

Besides, I don't even know if you can really call this an anti-Sam thread to begin with, lol.

There's a lot of campaigning for Sam going on here. Even shipping, when the OP specifically asked not to. And you yourself have been 'fighting' those who want to kill her off.

And even the poll here is currently in favour of keeping Sam (11 votes NO, 13 votes YES) :lol:

Which, now that I take a closer look at it, is even biased towards Sam, with 2 YES options and only 1 NO option available, LMAO.

Ellie92
1st Jul 2014, 11:50
QUESTION: Don't you think CD will keep Sam even longer if you tell them that you hate her so much? I mean, they are probably planning a huge dramatic scene where she dies and this scene probably won't work if people don't like her. So maybe if you keep hating her, they will keep her and trying to write her better/more interesting until you like her? :P

IRON LOBSTER
1st Jul 2014, 11:52
Onward fellow Jaffa Cakes!!!

Metalrocks
1st Jul 2014, 12:07
QUESTION: Don't you think CD will keep Sam even longer if you tell them that you hate her so much? I mean, they are probably planning a huge dramatic scene where she dies and this scene probably won't work if people don't like her. So maybe if you keep hating her, they will keep her and trying to write her better/more interesting until you like her? :P

a possibility.
they just have to flesh her out better, thats all. and hopefully not anymore to a kidnap victim.

IvanaKC
1st Jul 2014, 12:10
QUESTION: Don't you think CD will keep Sam even longer if you tell them that you hate her so much? I mean, they are probably planning a huge dramatic scene where she dies and this scene probably won't work if people don't like her. So maybe if you keep hating her, they will keep her and trying to write her better/more interesting until you like her? :P

I'm not so sure about that. Once developers have a script and decide about something, they tend to keep it that way. If they didn't have a story in their mind already, it would be quite difficult for them to make a game. Sure, they keep changing small things during the development, but killing off an important character is not a small thing, right?

Driber
1st Jul 2014, 13:10
Why can't the gaming public just trust the content creators to create the content..?
And then vote with their wallets as to whether they like it or not.

I personally like Sam. But it won't let me vote as of me writing this.

You're kinda contradicting there, aren't you?

On one hand you advocate trusting the devs to do what they think is best, on the other hand you want to vote on this poll that you assume is going to help change the minds of the devs.


QUESTION: Don't you think CD will keep Sam even longer if you tell them that you hate her so much? I mean, they are probably planning a huge dramatic scene where she dies and this scene probably won't work if people don't like her. So maybe if you keep hating her, they will keep her and trying to write her better/more interesting until you like her? :P

Nah.

Even IF your assumption is correct, I think you're gravely overestimating the influence of a handful of fans :p

daventry
1st Jul 2014, 15:31
But Sam takes Lara clubbing and takes her mind off the pressures of being an up and coming archaeologist!

Without Sam, Lara would be unhappy!

No one wants sad Lara being sad...


Sam is awesome like Jaffa Cakes.

SHE IS LARA'S JAFFA CAKE!!!
Keep Sam OUT of ROTTR, Dont even put her as a DLC Character or let her be some part of the Game. ;)

http://s1.uploads.im/Y5k6Q.jpg

IRON LOBSTER
1st Jul 2014, 18:11
That's just awful.

Doesn't this violate the forum rules?


I think whoweremeanttobe is voting just to stick it to the Sam haters. *have a Jaffa Cake bro*

Driber
1st Jul 2014, 18:29
The image doesn't show up for me :scratch:

AdobeArtist
1st Jul 2014, 19:00
The image doesn't show up for me :scratch:

I don't see it either, just the placeholder frame.

VaBanes
1st Jul 2014, 19:24
You can see it if you click on it. At least it works for me.

Driber
1st Jul 2014, 19:39
I see Daventry turned it into a link now.

Hmm, bloody. Gory. But I don't see how that image violates our TOU, no.

Actually pretty much looks like an average day for Lara on Yamatai, lol :p

Metalrocks
2nd Jul 2014, 01:16
i think gordon freeman will sue lara for using his favorite weapon :p poor winston, has to clean the carpet again because lara doenst know how to keep things clean. :lol:

Thetford
2nd Jul 2014, 01:48
i think gordon freeman will sue lara for using his favorite weapon :p poor winston, has to clean the carpet again because lara doenst know how to keep things clean. :lol:

He needs to introduce the wonders of linoleum flooring to Croft Manor ... and door controls inside the pantry.

Tihocan
2nd Jul 2014, 02:02
http://s1.uploads.im/Y5k6Q.jpg

Ok, that got a chuckle out of me.
Though, for the first couple of frames, I thought it was going elsewhere... :naughty:

BridgetFisher
2nd Jul 2014, 08:26
I thought Sam was cool, the badass wild side who liked exploring and all that. I think she could be the next Tomb Raider if Lara Croft falls through, Lara always seems on the verge of a mental breakdown. not very fun the whole therapy PTSD thing in a game, those things arent fun IRL either :P

Rai
2nd Jul 2014, 09:32
I thought Sam was cool, the badass wild side who liked exploring and all that. I think she could be the next Tomb Raider if Lara Croft falls through, Lara always seems on the verge of a mental breakdown. not very fun the whole therapy PTSD thing in a game, those things arent fun IRL either :P

Um, are we talking about a different Sam? When was Samsel ever badass who liked exploring? I'll give you a wild side, as she's definitely a bit more outgoing than Lara, being into partying, but she's next to useless when it comes to exploring/adventuring. In the comics (#5) we learn that it was Sam who would drag Lara out to clubs and Lara would drag Sam on trips looking at historical sites, camping and hiking. She says (paraphrasing here) that in hindsight, they shouldn't have made sense as friends, but they balanced each other and had fun anyway if they were together. It's like opposite attract and all that.

We don't know if the therapy is featuring in the game, but the idea will be to explore how her experiences have changed her and continue to do so. No one comes out of experiences like that the same, all happy and light. No PTSD isn't fun, I can imagine, but Lara isn't staying at home wallowing in depression she's facing her fears head on going on adventures and learning to except and embrace this.

BridgetFisher
2nd Jul 2014, 10:28
We don't know if the therapy is featuring in the game, but the idea will be to explore how her experiences have changed her and continue to do so. No one comes out of experiences like that the same, all happy and light. No PTSD isn't fun, I can imagine, but Lara isn't staying at home wallowing in depression she's facing her fears head on going on adventures and learning to except and embrace this.
As a gamer, I'm not into buying a game that deals with PTSD, therapy and her emotional recovery. Im just not that attached to a video game character to care enough. Seeing her in therapy turned me off to the game, like most people I was thinking, oh another origin story, been there done that. I just wish shed become a Tomb Raider, at this rate its going to take 4 years to get a game where she is raiding tombs with both barrels blazing.
But, ah that is where Sam comes in. Sam is adventurous Lara showed her how exploring is adventurous. Id like Sam to get a spinoff series where she goes around collecting treasure, raiding tombs, and shooting all kinds of stuff. Kind of like an anti-lara croft, since "The Tomb Raider", doesnt really raid tombs or use guns like the box art for the older games. I think Sam should pick up in her own spinoff game where the old series left off with the persona of the character at least. Id buy that game, but a game about a characters emotional development, I dont care who or what game it is, as a gamer I probably wont buy it since Im more interested in having fun in my downtime, not dealing with other peoples personal problems, specially virtual people when I have enough real people with problems around me, such are humans.... :D

daventry
2nd Jul 2014, 10:49
Guess im gonna have to go and make more Kill Sam Screens, because clearly you are in Fairy World where its all dandelions and Cupcakes, since Sam was in No Way Helpful in the Game, she was just a Damsel in Distress. Theres even a Book Novel dedicated to Sam where Lara must go Save her.

d1n0_xD
2nd Jul 2014, 11:55
I feel so sorry for people who cannot see pass the therapy thing(which was a ruse, IMO), and see the actual Tomb-Raider-badass-Lara aspect of the trailer we all waited to see.

And BridgetFisher, am I not a gamer for liking the PTSD thing? Am I not a gamer for feeling actual sadness when Lee died at the end of The Walking Dead? Am I not a gamer for seeing all my comrades die during the events of Mass Effect? Am I not a gamer for enjoying GLaDOS' remarks about me? Am I not a gamer for liking Triss more than Shani in The Witcher? Am I not a gamer for feeling sadness when Morrigan leaves at the end of Dragon Age:Origins, especially if I romanced her? Maybe I should just crawl back to my hole and die because I'm such an embarassment.

And you're full of contradictions. You say you're not that attached to characters to care, but you do care about her being in therapy to the point of not buying the game. How's that? You afraid the gameplay will change, and we'll try not to lose our sense of reality instead of usual TR gameplay? If that's the case, I don't know what to tell you...

Driber
2nd Jul 2014, 14:00
And you're full of contradictions. You say you're not that attached to characters to care, but you do care about her being in therapy to the point of not buying the game. How's that?

Maybe I shouldn't stick up for someone who's trolling (he voted in the poll for Sam being a playable character) :p but in BridgetFisher's defence, that is not really a contradiction, I think. What I think he's saying is that he doesn't care enough about the Lara character to want to spend money on seeing her going through emotional problems. He wants to spend money on games that are all about gaming, and not about drama.

While I agree that he's judging the game way too fast by merely going off a few scenes in a <2min trailer, I see the logic in his point. He may like other characters that he would like to see go through emotional development, for example characters in a movie or TV series.

d1n0_xD
2nd Jul 2014, 14:09
If that's the case, I apologize. But still, like you said, that's judging the game (and its gameplay for that matter) way too early, since we didn't see any gameplay yet.

And yes, I noticed the trolling in several other threads :p

BridgetFisher
3rd Jul 2014, 11:24
While I agree that he's judging the game way too fast by merely going off a few scenes in a <2min trailer, I see the logic in his point. He may like other characters that he would like to see go through emotional development, for example characters in a movie or TV series.

I am judging the game from the trailer, thats all I got to go on until they make more? That is what were supposed to do until we get more right? Pour over and discuss the minutia of every little detail of said trailer. :(

Ive read the thread, the pages, the posts. I dont get why people can "hate" Sam so much, there really wasnt enough of her to "hate". I read nothing that people post that clearly illustrates where their "hatred" comes from, same for people who "liked" same alot I dont get that either. Its not like Sam is Jar-Jar binks. I think with more character development she could be an awesome new character in the TR universe based off what I saw at least.

I hope the next trailer they make doesnt even have Lara Croft, I hope it is 100% Sam just to see how people react for arbitrarily being Sam haters, I would find that entertaining. :D

I think CD does a good job with characters, but too many is to many, the last game had to many, in a tomb raider game it should be like just a few main characters, a simple story, hence I dont like the whole emotional problem/drama/ptsd angle, its just to complicated and I dont care enough about it since well in real life people have real problems if that makes sense. It could make a good game, like going into someones head using some techno-deus ex neuro device to kill off their fears like cancer cells, but that would be a diff game not Tomb Raider which I guess is my point. But Id buy a game like that if CD makes it :D

d1n0_xD
3rd Jul 2014, 11:38
^ Yeah, but you can't judge gameplay with a cinematic trailer. And I'm kinda confused on your take, do you like gameplay more or story? If you don't care about the plot, but gameplay interest you, will you still play it? Or do you find gameplay boring without some context, but don't want your brain to hurt over a complicated story?

BridgetFisher
3rd Jul 2014, 12:14
^ Yeah, but you can't judge gameplay with a cinematic trailer. And I'm kinda confused on your take, do you like gameplay more or story? If you don't care about the plot, but gameplay interest you, will you still play it? Or do you find gameplay boring without some context, but don't want your brain to hurt over a complicated story?

Yes a little bit of everything but gameplay is 99% to me, if a game is unplayable then well, I cant play it, or if its repetitive, boring, uninteresting, forces one kind of playstyle like splinter cell where if you do something wrong the game says MISSION FAILED, and you start all over. As a player that is cheap and unfair, I cant be immersed in a game where if a mission parameter is violated a big screen appears saying mission failed without letting me figure out how to unfudge the situation as ya know, a player :P

Story, hmmm, well its not to important to me, if the game play is fun since well its a game, then that is why I said 99%. Seriously if I want a good story I watch a movie or read a book, not play a video game, for me I just game to game, but different people value things differently so to each their own in that aspect. Ive seen alot of devs recently talking about how their games would be great if they could get rid of the gameplay and focus on the story more, well that sounded stupid to me since their in the wrong business if that is how they feel. I just hope they dont reboot tetris and make it an edgy game about blocks having emotions about being labeled by their shape in their ongoing battle against a system holding them back in their struggle against the ruling elite. I dont think people would buy that game :P

I dont want my brain to hurt from an over complicated story :(
I just wanna raid tombs, get treasures, shoot things from people to ghosts to demons and dinosaurs, ride crazy vehicles like a giant half statue half robot half buddha using it to shoot lasers. Also burst into flames, Im sure someone will get that ref since it was in a recent thread :)

d1n0_xD
3rd Jul 2014, 14:27
^ So... Why do you think you won't be able to raid tombs, get treasures, shoot things in RotTR? And if gameplay's that important to you, why are you commenting gameplay in a cinematic trailer? Even if we get a story like you describe it, "emotional, bla bla", why do you think the gameplay will change because of that? I just don't get it...

Metalrocks
3rd Jul 2014, 14:38
have to agree with dino as well. your view is rather confusing what you really want.

and in splinter cell you dont fail immediately if you get spotted. i think there are only few missions were you cant be spotted. and i also dont think that tomb raider will be any of your mentioned points. at least i hope it will not be the case.

Driber
3rd Jul 2014, 15:30
I am judging the game from the trailer, thats all I got to go on until they make more? That is what were supposed to do until we get more right? Pour over and discuss the minutia of every little detail of said trailer. :(

Discuss, yeah. Not dismiss.


Ive read the thread, the pages, the posts. I dont get why people can "hate" Sam so much, there really wasnt enough of her to "hate". I read nothing that people post that clearly illustrates where their "hatred" comes from, same for people who "liked" same alot I dont get that either. Its not like Sam is Jar-Jar binks. I think with more character development she could be an awesome new character in the TR universe based off what I saw at least.

I'm not a Sam hater, so no idea why you're directing this comment to me.

TBH, I actually dislike Reyes more than Sam. I'm just done with Sam because of the LxS cult. It made her an annoying character.

Funny you mentioned Jar-Jar binks, though. Sam could indeed very well be the Jar-Jar binks of Tomb Raider, lol.


I hope the next trailer they make doesnt even have Lara Croft, I hope it is 100% Sam just to see how people react for arbitrarily being Sam haters, I would find that entertaining. :D

Yeah and have Sam dress up in classic Lara outfit. Man, the fans would lose their **** haha.


I think CD does a good job with characters, but too many is to many, the last game had to many, in a tomb raider game it should be like just a few main characters, a simple story, hence I dont like the whole emotional problem/drama/ptsd angle, its just to complicated and I dont care enough about it since well in real life people have real problems if that makes sense.

You already made this exact point several times over, so yeah, we get it :p

Just saying, there's not enough material released to really complaint about "the whole emotional problem/drama/ptsd angle". If the game heavily focuses on PTSD, then I'm with you; I wouldn't like that, either. But it's way too early to tell...

BridgetFisher
3rd Jul 2014, 22:39
Discuss, yeah. Not dismiss.



I'm not a Sam hater, so no idea why you're directing this comment to me.

TBH, I actually dislike Reyes more than Sam. I'm just done with Sam because of the LxS cult. It made her an annoying character.

Funny you mentioned Jar-Jar binks, though. Sam could indeed very well be the Jar-Jar binks of Tomb Raider, lol.



Yeah and have Sam dress up in classic Lara outfit. Man, the fans would lose their **** haha.



You already made this exact point several times over, so yeah, we get it :p

Just saying, there's not enough material released to really complaint about "the whole emotional problem/drama/ptsd angle". If the game heavily focuses on PTSD, then I'm with you; I wouldn't like that, either. But it's way too early to tell...

Ah, not directing the post at you, maybe that is how replies work mine was just in general to people who for some reason seem to really hate Sam or really like Sam which both parties exist Ive noticed. From the first game I think there isnt enough to love/hate Sam but there is enough to build a character out of depending what direction they go but it could work...

I do suspect the love and hate of Sam people kind of created eachother kind of like without Batman there wouldnt be a joker.

Metalrocks
4th Jul 2014, 01:21
interesting comparison.

i also think that sam will work. all they have to do is flesh her out more. thats the only thing that failed in the game. i just like her because its good to see that lara has someone she really cares about and vice versa. even when sam is not as lara, something made them to be close to each other. hopefully even closer :naughty::whistle:

Tihocan
4th Jul 2014, 02:57
I am judging the game from the trailer, thats all I got to go on until they make more?
If there was any gameplay shown at all, then yes. But like I said to daventry, if you put this same judgement on Uncharted 4 then that game would be about a guy waking up in a puddle, then going for a bushwalk.


I don't get why people can "hate" Sam so much.
Because hate is easy, and loud. You'll find this with everything. If we were to assume that the split were 50/50 love/hate, then you would hear from 40% of the haters and 10% of the lovers. As a guy who works in Quality Engineering, this is true nearly all of the time.
When was the last time you went out of your way to contact a company about something you liked, and inversely when you really didn't. It then skews the general perception.

To be honest, I like Sam. Without reading the comics, I find her to be open and trusting, and loyal to her friend.


Yes a little bit of everything but gameplay is 99% ... Story, hmmm, well its not to important to me...
And it is extremely important to the other people who play the game - in case you hadn't noticed. The story has been tormented and picked apart by many, but appreciated for it's depth by many more.
You sound like my brother in law who, when we played together, would drive me nuts by skipping the cutscenes. But I respect that, and the best thing CD could do for you is allowing you to do that also.


Yeah and have Sam dress up in classic Lara outfit. Man, the fans would lose their **** haha.
Ooh, I like the sound of this. Then Lara could walk in on her and [Refused Classification]
Ahhhh, damn it.

Driber
4th Jul 2014, 13:01
Because hate is easy, and loud. You'll find this with everything. If we were to assume that the split were 50/50 love/hate

I doubt that there's a 50/50 split.


then you would hear from 40% of the haters and 10% of the lovers

Now this I know for sure is not true. No waaaaay there's 4x more Sam hate than Sam love. At least not on this forum. The Sam lovers (and Sam likers) are far more vocal.

Perhaps the past few weeks we're seeing more anti-Sam sentiments than before, but that's probably due to the recent comic and novel plots of her being a damsel in distress again, which seems to be rubbing even the (ex-) Sam likers the wrong way. Up until that point, the Sam hate really wasn't that much. It even took 15 months after release until the first anti-Sam thread was created (this one) :whistle:


Ooh, I like the sound of this. Then Lara could walk in on her and [Refused Classification]
Ahhhh, damn it.

You tease, you :p

Tihocan
4th Jul 2014, 13:18
I doubt that there's a 50/50 split.
I wasn't going for accurate, I was alluding to a point. Out of curiosity, what do you think it is?



Now this I know for sure is not true. No waaaaay there's 4x more Sam hate than Sam love. At least not on this forum. The Sam lovers (and Sam likers) are far more vocal.

Perhaps the past few weeks we're seeing more anti-Sam sentiments than before, but that's probably due to the recent comic and novel plots of her being a damsel in distress again, which seems to be rubbing even the (ex-) Sam likers the wrong way. Up until that point, the Sam hate really wasn't that much. It even took 15 months after release until the first anti-Sam thread was created (this one) :whistle:
Well, to be honest, I wouldn't really know. I kind of went on a TR forum hiatus for a while (not intentionally, just, how life went).
I was more addressing the question of "hate" and why there is so much of it. I figure that, in this particular scene, people have very strong feelings towards certain aspects of the TR universe and are vocal.
In general though, it seems to be a truth that people are more vocal about the things they don't like rather than openly appreciating the things they do.


You tease, you :p
I think that was in the script too :whistle:

Driber
4th Jul 2014, 13:33
I wasn't going for accurate, I was alluding to a point. Out of curiosity, what do you think it is?

Hmm...

I'm not sure, but my gut feeling says that the love/hate are more like extremes that both fall in the minority group and that the majority are sort of in between love and hate.

So like 20% love, 20% hate, and 60% "Sam's alright".

(percentages are illustrative)


In general though, it seems to be a truth that people are more vocal about the things they don't like rather than openly appreciating the things they do.

In general, that seems to be true, yes. Pop by in the technical forum section for TR10 when the game is released and watch the PC topics to see just how freaking vocal the minority can get ;)

Tihocan
4th Jul 2014, 13:42
So like 20% love, 20% hate, and 60% "Sam's alright".

I'll consider the latter to be the "control group" then :P


In general, that seems to be true, yes. Pop by in the technical forum section for TR10 when the game is released and watch the PC topics to see just how freaking vocal the minority can get ;)
What, can't the master race handle a few bugs under the bonnet? :lol:

Driber
4th Jul 2014, 14:28
Oh snap :lol:

RybatGrimes
5th Jul 2014, 07:09
SHOTS FIRED. :eek:

Tihocan
5th Jul 2014, 08:32
SHOTS FIRED. :eek:

Yeah, let's not turn this into an XBox vs PS vs PC fanboy plopfight. :)

AdobeArtist
5th Jul 2014, 14:42
Yeah, let's not turn this into an XBox vs PS vs PC fanboy plopfight. :)

Just in case, I got mah popcorn ready :cool::p

daventry
6th Jul 2014, 13:50
This is what i Fear will happen in ROTTR. Please Credit Doppel fer her Art, since the Screen is Incredible, but the Thought of Sam being in ROTTR will have a Bad Influance on Square as Tomb Raider is about Lara Croft and the Story, Not about Buddies and lets be Sam when Lara is stuck somewhere.

d1n0_xD
6th Jul 2014, 14:30
^ Your fear is unjustified.

VaBanes
6th Jul 2014, 15:12
I doubt this will ever happen.

I like it that Lara cares about other people as well and not just about the next artefact she can get.

Metalrocks
6th Jul 2014, 15:25
sure a nice pic. but i also dont see this happening to be honest. but who knows. she might be a side character for a level or 2. but thats just wild speculation.

AdobeArtist
6th Jul 2014, 15:46
sure a nice pic. but i also dont see this happening to be honest. but who knows. she might be a side character for a level or 2. but thats just wild speculation.

Yeah same here. While Sam may not join Lara on every expedition, she'll remain an important part of Lara's life. In most cases I can see her helping Lara from home, communicating via headset and feeding her intel. Even if she is in the field with Lara we probably won't see her armed as in Doppel's art. She'll probably keep the base camp while Lara ventures into the temples and such.

But I really do see the relationship dynamic working well, as friends around a campfire, sharing the meals and taking that down time just to let their hair down.




I like it that Lara cares about other people as well and not just about the next artefact she can get.

And this too. I think it's important for Lara to have that special friend in her life that helps her keep perspective.

Metalrocks
6th Jul 2014, 15:54
Yeah same here. While Sam may not join Lara on every expedition, she'll remain an important part of Lara's life. In most cases I can see her helping Lara from home, communicating via headset and feeding her intel. Even if she is in the field with Lara we probably won't see her armed as in Doppel's art. She'll probably keep the base camp while Lara ventures into the temples and such.

But I really do see the relationship dynamic working well, as friends around a campfire, sharing the meals and taking that down time just to let their hair down.



And this too. I think it's important for Lara to have that special friend in her life that helps her keep perspective.

exactly my view i had since last year. like helping lara over headset with a puzzle lara cant solve due lack of information. lara cant know every single thing. she needs some help and moral support. who would be better then her best friend (lover :whistle:) then sam.

AdobeArtist
6th Jul 2014, 16:05
exactly my view i had since last year. like helping lara over headset with a puzzle lara cant solve due lack of information. lara cant know every single thing. she needs some help and moral support. who would be better then her best friend (lover :whistle:) then sam.

I should add, that while I can see Sam helping Lara over headset, I don't want their interaction to be limited by that divide. There should be some situations where they can actually be together, to share in some moments that are more meaningful that can't be achieved via long distance chat.

daventry
6th Jul 2014, 16:06
The Generation of today, what has become of Self Reliance where its Dependent upon the Helping Hand like Zip and Alister and now Sam. :scratch:

Must Games become the Sims to be Entertained, are you that Afraid to play Alone where you can be Yourself. :rolleyes:

What TR Games are you guys playing or want anyway. :nut:

AdobeArtist
6th Jul 2014, 16:19
The Generation of today, what has become of Self Reliance where its Dependent upon the Helping Hand like Zip and Alister and now Sam. :scratch:

Must Games become the Sims to be Entertained, are you that Afraid to play Alone where you can be Yourself. :rolleyes:

I would say that games have simply grown, to move past the tired cliche of the "lone warrior" and embracing the truth that having support does not make one "weak", and understanding that self-reliance is not to be taken literally as "can do EVERYTHING alone".

Driber
6th Jul 2014, 16:29
The Generation of today, what has become of Self Reliance where its Dependent upon the Helping Hand like Zip and Alister and now Sam. :scratch:

Must Games become the Sims to be Entertained, are you that Afraid to play Alone where you can be Yourself. :rolleyes:

What TR Games are you guys playing or want anyway. :nut:

I hear ya, man. I miss the good old days of the classic games when Lara was completely self reliant and didn't need people like Ahmed, Von Croy, Zip, Winston, Jean-Ives, Kurtis, etc.

Oh, wait...

:p


I would say that games have simply grown, to move past the tired cliche of the "lone warrior"

Nah. There's still a place for the "lone warrior" type. Just as there's still a place of the damsel in distress plot. daventry's argument is just flawed, IMO.


self-reliance is not to be taken literally as "can do EVERYTHING alone".

Agreed.

Metalrocks
7th Jul 2014, 02:23
I should add, that while I can see Sam helping Lara over headset, I don't want their interaction to be limited by that divide. There should be some situations where they can actually be together, to share in some moments that are more meaningful that can't be achieved via long distance chat.

obviously. i didnt mean either that sam should just give infos and thats it. i expect some private moments (no, not these kind of private moments :p ) to extend/show their friendship. a little downtime for both of them to switch off, get a clear head and back again in to adventure.

Tihocan
7th Jul 2014, 03:09
The Generation of today, what has become of Self Reliance where its Dependent upon the Helping Hand like Zip and Alister and now Sam. :scratch:

Must Games become the Sims to be Entertained, are you that Afraid to play Alone where you can be Yourself. :rolleyes:

What TR Games are you guys playing or want anyway. :nut:

What do I want? Well...

I want Lara to be a person, with feelings and internal conflicts - not an automaton that will destroy everyone and everything in her path for personal pleasure.
I want her to form complex relationships to a select few that will be privy to her dark, shattered personality.
I want her to come to depend on those select few who, in turn, will lay down all they have to follow Lara into battle.
I want those select few to be inspired by and motivated by Lara, so that she is a part of them and they will forever be a part of her.
I want that, if it so comes to pass, their demise has a meaningful effect on her, rather than just "someone she didn't save".
I want the isolation to be real, devastating, when her team can't be there with her - something she has to rise above and become Lara Croft, the Adventurer.

I want Lara to be a leader, strong, charismatic, saving the world from fates worse than death, her companions at her side.

The image above is perfect - Sam has become empowered, driven and wholly loyal to this person who has pushed her past that Samsel in Distress label.

I want a story, dammit. Not an aimless romp through some tombs in order stop a somebody from a something or other.
Also, she may go batpoop crazy talking to herself all the time!

AdobeArtist
7th Jul 2014, 05:03
The image above is perfect - Sam has become empowered, driven and wholly loyal to this person who has pushed her past that Samsel in Distress label.



This brings up an excellent point and one I brought up in the Lara x Sam thread of the older board.

People are always going on about how Sam was weak, naive, incompetent, and so on, all for the argument that her continued presence would "hold Lara back". And granted most of the remarks are true and she was captured repeatedly because of her own shortcomings.

But why is it an automatic assumption that the Sam of TR2013 is going to be the exact same in the next installment?

Let's look at this from another angle. We all know how Lara grew and evolved from her experiences on Yamatai. Who she was at the end of the game is clearly not who she was at the beginning. And we all have the context for how her ordeals shaped her into who she's become.

So why is this transformation limited to just Lara? Because she's the main character? Sam went through her own ordeals so we'd have to surmise that she came out of it a changed person. Maybe not exactly the same as Lara but changed none the less.

The only difference is that while a captive she wasn't given the opportunity to learn and develop survival skills. Being home from that however presents the chance for Sam to take hold of her destiny and make the choices that will make her stronger.

Granted she may never develop to the same extent as Lara, not all people are equal in athletic or combat prowess. But she doesn't have to be as good as Lara. Just to make the determination to learn from experience and not make the same mistakes again, to not fall prey to misfortune. It can be as simple as being wiser, in being guarded of strangers so as not to give them the opportunity to exploit her.

In my own fan fiction one of the chapters I depict Lara giving Sam archery lessons, as well as referencing her instructing in other self defense techniques. While this may be my own fabrication, it's still grounded in a reasonable premise; that Lara knowing what Sam went through she'd want to ensure she can take care of herself. But more importantly Sam herself wanting to improve for the same reasons for her own sake, that she'd accept the lessons from Lara.

I see it as a logical progression of character development. And really, who better to see to Sam's training than her closest friend and confidante who already has a relationship with her (established), who would assume the mentor role?

So I ask this to the opposition; do you honestly think after what Sam went through, she wouldn't change? That she wouldn't want to learn and grow, and in turn become more capable and no longer a hindrance to her friend?

daventry
7th Jul 2014, 06:43
In my own fan fiction one of the chapters I depict Lara giving Sam archery lessons, as well as referencing her instructing in other self defense techniques. While this may be my own fabrication, it's still grounded in a reasonable premise; that Lara knowing what Sam went through she'd want to ensure she can take care of herself. But more importantly Sam herself wanting to improve for the same reasons for her own sake, that she'd accept the lessons from Lara.

I see it as a logical progression of character development. And really, who better to see to Sam's training than her closest friend and confidante who already has a relationship with her (established), who would assume the mentor role?

So I ask this to the opposition; do you honestly think after what Sam went through, she wouldn't change? That she wouldn't want to learn and grow, and in turn become more capable and no longer a hindrance to her friend?That sound nice and all, but Not hoping Lara and Sam would become Closer as a Shipper Relationship, yet when it comes to Lara Training Sam where Sam gets a Level to be played, Sam could be More in the Next TR Game that would be called Sam Raider and thats why its a Dangerous Aspect.

The Game Franchise is about Lara Croft, but having Sam be in Cutscenes where she gives Information to Lara and trying to be there for Lara will develop a Game Series called: Tomb Raider - Adventures of Lara and Sam

Honestly, Get Rid Of Sam

AdobeArtist
7th Jul 2014, 07:21
That sound nice and all, but Not hoping Lara and Sam would become Closer as a Shipper Relationship, yet when it comes to Lara Training Sam where Sam gets a Level to be played, Sam could be More in the Next TR Game that would be called Sam Raider and thats why its a Dangerous Aspect.

The Game Franchise is about Lara Croft, but having Sam be in Cutscenes where she gives Information to Lara and trying to be there for Lara will develop a Game Series called: Tomb Raider - Adventures of Lara and Sam

Honestly, Get Rid Of Sam

OK, sure I wrote that in the context of a romantic ship. But the same scenario could work just as well within a friendship context. Again, Lara cares about Sam, and Sam is now driven to improve after her experience, so the scenario is really logical.

I think you're reading wayyyyy too much into it if you're rashly jumping to conclusions that having Sam present in the game will lead to a playable level, and especially the ludicrous idea that she'll "take over" the series.

Lara has had supporting characters before but the game has always been about her. This would certainly be no different. Except for the angle that we now have someone Lara genuinely cares for and has a meaningful connection with, which can continue to expand her character development.

Metalrocks
7th Jul 2014, 07:24
That sound nice and all, but Not hoping Lara and Sam would become Closer as a Shipper Relationship, yet when it comes to Lara Training Sam where Sam gets a Level to be played, Sam could be More in the Next TR Game that would be called Sam Raider and thats why its a Dangerous Aspect.

The Game Franchise is about Lara Croft, but having Sam be in Cutscenes where she gives Information to Lara and trying to be there for Lara will develop a Game Series called: Tomb Raider - Adventures of Lara and Sam

Honestly, Get Rid Of Sam

and yet, we have zip and alistor in legend and underworld giving lara information and updates that helped her. and it was still called tomb raider. there is nothing dangerous about it if sam is doing the same thing.

and as adobe said, sam would change as well after her horrific ordeal. any kind of experience in life changes everyone in some extent. so why not for sam as well. if any happenings of the comics alone will be considered in the next game, sam surely could have enough as well and wants to be able to fight enemies off or at least be able to defend her self.

after all, we are not talking about that sam should be exactly like lara. she can have her own abilities and help out lara in her own way.

pretty much like ashley in resident evil 4.
is she useful and in any way helpful? NO.
was she taken several times (and im not counting the parts were a regular enemy is taking her. if they get to)? YES. and if i think of it, she was taken more than sam.
and yet, we even play her and she had her own methods of fighting. and this was a welcoming change that you had to approach the situation a bit differently than with leon. sure it was for a short time but an interesting one and not easy to forget.
if CD can implement that somehow as well with sam, that would be an interesting approach.

sam is important to lara and vise versa. so why not expend their relationship? we still have tomb raider. only this time lara has someone with her she can at least trust a 100%.

daventry
7th Jul 2014, 07:34
So the Constant Headset with Zip and Alister in Legend was cool, because their Relationship with Lara was Important to tell Lara some History and Advice on things that Lara as an Archeologist Already Knows. Is that the kind of Jokes and Tasteless Comments you want throughout the Game to keep Lara Calm and Entertained.

Should we hear Stories from Sam about her and Lara while we Raid Tombs in ROTTR so the Game doesent become Dull and Boring.

Tell me, how was TR Anniverary for you. Was it Dull and too quiet, or do you prefer the TR Legend Experience.

By the way, ive Never played a single Resident Evil Game before.

Metalrocks
7th Jul 2014, 07:54
put it this way. at least for me it was nice to hear things from these guys talking to lara. it gave them and lara character and it was nice to hear how they helped lara. which everyone else needs regardless.
they did annoy me a bit when they had to make some cheers, gasping, etc like lara jumping over a burning bridge. these kind of cheers i didnt really need.
at least this was changed in underworld that they only commented on things lara needs to know. even when they were a bit too quiet compared to legend. but thats just my opinion.

so in other words, YES, i would love to hear some stories between lara and sam. that way we learn more about them, which is needed. its only natural of them to talk to each other for confidence. especially after their ordeal.
of course not every 5 minutes but at quieter moments it will do fine like when they see something, either from their travels or study, that reminds them of their past what they have done. just anything to develop character.

i dont mind the quiet moments in anni but to me, its just more realistic and believable to see lara having someone who is supporting her.

Driber
7th Jul 2014, 10:10
i dont mind the quiet moments in anni but to me, its just more realistic and believable to see lara having someone who is supporting her.

Ugh, you guys always have such good points but then you go and spoil it with things like this :p

There's nothing "unrealistic" nor "unbelievable" about Lara not constantly chattering over a headset with someone back at HQ.

Metalrocks
7th Jul 2014, 10:30
Ugh, you guys always have such good points but then you go and spoil it with things like this :p

There's nothing "unrealistic" nor "unbelievable" about Lara not constantly chattering over a headset with someone back at HQ.

i was meaning it in a more general form of context. ;)
but yes, i see the flaw i have written. :rolleyes:

d1n0_xD
7th Jul 2014, 11:01
So the Constant Headset with Zip and Alister in Legend was cool, because their Relationship with Lara was Important to tell Lara some History and Advice on things that Lara as an Archeologist Already Knows. Is that the kind of Jokes and Tasteless Comments you want throughout the Game to keep Lara Calm and Entertained.

Lara know history and all, but we gamers don't, so it's a cool way of introducing that to us, as well as immerse ourselves and like the characters more. And those jokes and comments were everything but tasteless, IMO.


Should we hear Stories from Sam about her and Lara while we Raid Tombs in ROTTR so the Game doesent become Dull and Boring.

Once in a while maybe, if it has some meaning, why not?


Tell me, how was TR Anniverary for you. Was it Dull and too quiet, or do you prefer the TR Legend Experience.

Anni was great, same as Legend :3


And darksaiyan, some nice points you've got there :thumb:

Thetford
7th Jul 2014, 12:47
Ugh, you guys always have such good points but then you go and spoil it with things like this :p

There's nothing "unrealistic" nor "unbelievable" about Lara not constantly chattering over a headset with someone back at HQ.

Especially when one tends to lose a signal in a tunnel in a city, how do we expect her to receive one in a tomb in the arse end of nowhere?

Metalrocks
7th Jul 2014, 12:54
Especially when one tends to lose a signal in a tunnel in a city, how do we expect her to receive one in a tomb in the arse end of nowhere?

lara is surely using high tech gear that allows her to have better reception than conventional gear.

Driber
7th Jul 2014, 13:42
I'm sure Thetford was just being a smart-arse, lol.

Edit: actually, she does have a good point :p

So with that said...



lara is surely using high tech gear that allows her to have better reception than conventional gear.

Lara is surely using high-tech weapons that allows her to have more effective dual wielding than conventional weapons :rasp:

Metalrocks
7th Jul 2014, 14:39
I'm sure Thetford was just being a smart-arse, lol.

Edit: actually, she does have a good point :p

So with that said...



Lara is surely using high-tech weapons that allows her to have more effective dual wielding than conventional weapons :rasp:

what ever works for her i guess :D

Rai
7th Jul 2014, 14:54
Gosh no, no more headsets! :eek:

In all honesty, I'd rather see Reyes back on an adventure than Sam. Joslin seems a lot more capable for starters. She and Lara may not be BFFs but they show respect to each other when it matters and the dynamic between them could be interesting. There's a shared history with Roth they could talk about. I think Reyes' business like demeanor with a cool head and straight talk is what Lara needs on an adventure over girly chats. Sam can offer the light-hearted side when she's home.

d1n0_xD
7th Jul 2014, 14:57
Yeah, I would love seeing Reyes doubting Lara and then being proved wrong :D

Thetford
7th Jul 2014, 15:14
I'm sure Thetford was just being a smart-arse, lol.

Edit: actually, she does have a good point :p



Are you referring to me or Metelrocks as "she", there is potentially a 50% chance you are wrong.




In all honesty, I'd rather see Reyes back on an adventure than Sam. Joslin seems a lot more capable for starters. She and Lara may not be BFFs but they show respect to each other when it matters and the dynamic between them could be interesting. There's a shared history with Roth they could talk about. I think Reyes' business like demeanor with a cool head and straight talk is what Lara needs on an adventure over girly chats. Sam can offer the light-hearted side when she's home.

Not to mention that while Samsel is trained in Media Studies or Film Studies or whatever Underwater Basket Weaving course she did, Reyes is trained in mechanical engineering, something Lara presumably isn't trained in (chances are, Lara is one of those people who take their car to a garage where the mechanics, suck air between their teeth and charge her for unnecessary repairs, when all she wanted was an MOT test).

daventry
7th Jul 2014, 15:21
Same Reason Zip was Trained with Mechanical stuff, yet he wasent needed for 99% of TRL/TRU The only time he was needed was for that Russian Level and that was it.

Also the same reason that Sam is trained in Media Studies, so what exactly is she gonna do with Lara when Lara is Exploring Tombs, make a Film out of her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hDGcxkEa2c

d1n0_xD
7th Jul 2014, 15:39
^ He was needed for the background storyline, man, you have to have a believable story detail in order to immerse yourself... You'll be amazed what devs put in their games in order for it to be realistic... MGS V even has horsed pooping in real time, for God's sake XD

daventry
7th Jul 2014, 15:46
What Background Storyline, Alister had a more background storyline then Zip. Its like for example you take the Kids to the Water Park, yet you drag the Plumber along that Only fixed your Sink.

d1n0_xD
7th Jul 2014, 16:15
^ The general background storyline, who Lara is, what she's doing when she's not what she's doing, is she alone at the mansion, who manages all the stuff when she isn't there, who are her accomplices... if you ask me, it all adds to her character :)

daventry
7th Jul 2014, 16:37
Winston manages all the stuff when she isn't there, like Alfred with Batman

LaraCroft04
7th Jul 2014, 17:21
^ The general background storyline, who Lara is, what she's doing when she's not what she's doing, is she alone at the mansion, who manages all the stuff when she isn't there, who are her accomplices... if you ask me, it all adds to her character :)

I agree with this, I think this kind of information adds to the realism of Lara and I would find it interesting to know more of Lara's life away from just her adventures.

As for Sam, I wouldn't mind her having a role in which she wasn't a focus of the storyline, but still featured in the game and in Lara's life and adventures. The idea of her being in touch with Lara via headset is an interesting one to me, I would welcome that feature in the new game, and for Sam to offer information and insight into Lara's adventures without having to physically appear in the game, other than the odd cut scene or something.

I generally want the focus to be on Lara which is why I want Sam, and all other Endurance characters for that matter, to not play too big of a role in Rise of the Tomb Raider. However, I think killing Sam off or just not mentioning her at all would be silly after the important role she had in Tomb Raider 2013. If she'd have died at the end of that game I could understand it for the impact it would have on Lara, but I feel like killing her off now wouldn't really add to Lara's development, and just be a sloppy way to remove her from the story.

d1n0_xD
7th Jul 2014, 17:22
@daventry Yeah, Winston's just a butler, so...

daventry
7th Jul 2014, 17:54
And Alfred is just a Butler, so...

Driber
7th Jul 2014, 18:52
what ever works for her i guess :D

Good to hear you finally agree with me on dual wielding working for Lara :p :D


Are you referring to me or Metelrocks as "she", there is potentially a 50% chance you are wrong.

You. Thought you were.


Not to mention that while Samsel is trained in Media Studies or Film Studies or whatever Underwater Basket Weaving course she did

:lol:


However, I think killing Sam off or just not mentioning her at all would be silly after the important role she had in Tomb Raider 2013. If she'd have died at the end of that game I could understand it for the impact it would have on Lara, but I feel like killing her off now wouldn't really add to Lara's development, and just be a sloppy way to remove her from the story.

Well to be fair, it's really too early to tell. It can possibly be pulled off if done right. Just because you can't come up with a good way to kill off Sam doesn't mean there isn't one :)


Gosh no, no more headsets! :eek:

In all honesty, I'd rather see Reyes back on an adventure than Sam. Joslin seems a lot more capable for starters. She and Lara may not be BFFs but they show respect to each other when it matters and the dynamic between them could be interesting. There's a shared history with Roth they could talk about. I think Reyes' business like demeanor with a cool head and straight talk is what Lara needs on an adventure over girly chats. Sam can offer the light-hearted side when she's home.

I think you may be right. Even though I dislike Reyes more than Sam, I can kinda see Reyes working as Lara's communications person. Sam I don't see fulfilling that role whatsoever. She'd be terrible at it, and should stick to making funny home videos :p

d1n0_xD
7th Jul 2014, 20:20
And Alfred is just a Butler, so...

It is very clear Alfred isn't just a butler ;)

daventry
7th Jul 2014, 21:14
Yes, then in TR3 he became Lara's Practice Dummy ;)

Driber
7th Jul 2014, 21:30
Now there's a job suitable for Samsel :lol:

daventry
7th Jul 2014, 21:32
Warning, Very Gruesome Sam Death Scene

http://s22.postimg.org/osqevjylb/Sam_Fight_and_Dies_Horribly.jpg

Rai
7th Jul 2014, 23:12
Yes, then in TR3 he became Lara's Practice Dummy ;)

http://download.gamezone.com/uploads/image/data/1137628/article_post_width_news-tomb-raider-winston-jpg.jpg


Now there's a job suitable for Samsel :lol:
This way Lara gets to kidnap Sam...and lock her up in the freezer. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/mischievous.gif

AdobeArtist
7th Jul 2014, 23:15
This way Lara gets to kidnap Sam...and lock her up in the freezer. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/mischievous.gif

2 traditions, 1 stone :p :lol:

daventry
7th Jul 2014, 23:18
Aaw, you guys are too sweet in giving me Ideas, well Tomorrow i will make more. Good Night :flowers:

Metalrocks
8th Jul 2014, 02:03
Warning, Very Gruesome Sam Death Scene

http://s22.postimg.org/osqevjylb/Sam_Fight_and_Dies_Horribly.jpg

:lol:
that would be so hilarious if sam would be in the next MK. maybe add lara as well then they can fight each other. :p

@driber
in your dreams

Driber
8th Jul 2014, 09:21
Warning, Very Gruesome Sam Death Scene

http://s22.postimg.org/osqevjylb/Sam_Fight_and_Dies_Horribly.jpg

Good lord. Your hatred towards Sam is getting to a disturbing level, man -_-


@driber
in your dreams

Not a chance, buddy! You already conceded, so no taking it back now :lol:

Metalrocks
8th Jul 2014, 09:28
Good lord. Your hatred towards Sam is getting to a disturbing level, man -_-



Not a chance, buddy! You already conceded, so no taking it back now :lol:

lol. my answer was pretty neutral. ;)

Driber
8th Jul 2014, 09:51
Nope, you conceded on the 'realism' issue, and imma hold you to it next time :p

BridgetFisher
8th Jul 2014, 09:54
^ The general background storyline, who Lara is, what she's doing when she's not what she's doing, is she alone at the mansion, who manages all the stuff when she isn't there, who are her accomplices... if you ask me, it all adds to her character :)

Hmmm, I thought and I can find the quote if needed, but im pretty sure they said lara isnt an aristocrat and doesnt own a mansion. Wasnt the dev saying since the last game how he wanted to get rid of the icon of lara croft so he got rid of her background too pretty sure. I can find that quote its on the other computer :P

d1n0_xD
8th Jul 2014, 10:06
^ I wasn't talking about the 2013 game... And I'm pretty sure that's not how it went down, but hey, pull up that quote :p

Driber
8th Jul 2014, 10:09
Hmmm, I thought and I can find the quote if needed, but im pretty sure they said lara isnt an aristocrat and doesnt own a mansion. Wasnt the dev saying since the last game how he wanted to get rid of the icon of lara croft so he got rid of her background too pretty sure. I can find that quote its on the other computer :P

Actually, what CD said is that they are trying to avoid outright calling Lara an "aristocrat" because some people (wrongly, IMO) give it a negative connotation, but at the same time indicated that she still kind of is, as she's coming from that "aristocratic lineage". They just prefer to not really focus on that right now.

As for her mansion - nothing was said about that at all. It's very much possible she still has it, or will get it in a future game. Keep in mind that current Lara is much younger right now ;)

d1n0_xD
8th Jul 2014, 10:13
^ That's right, I'm pretty sure that's how it went down, but I wanted BF to pull up a quote first :p I remember us discussing whether she liked being an aristocrat and all that... And from the game, it's pretty clear she wasn't very close to her father, and didn't believe in his research... I don't know, we still have a lot to learn :D

BridgetFisher
8th Jul 2014, 11:13
^ That's right, I'm pretty sure that's how it went down, but I wanted BF to pull up a quote first :p I remember us discussing whether she liked being an aristocrat and all that... And from the game, it's pretty clear she wasn't very close to her father, and didn't believe in his research... I don't know, we still have a lot to learn :D

It was a quote by Karl stewart who makes the new Tomb Raider games, something about how Lara Croft isnt an aristocrat. I read the exact quote but meh, it kinda angered me, I have an image of all these quotes people compiled of how they change the image of Tomb Raider to match the personal wants of the dev team but I keep deleting it because it angers me, haha. Good thing is I dont empty the recycling bin so it kinda just sits in there.

(Im more a fan of the classic kick butt lara who raided tombs. I think Im becoming less a fan of the more modern Lara where she seems to dependent, doesnt raid tombs, and just wants to please everyone, whereas the old Lara didnt care about pleasing anyone which was part of what made her awesome.)

Yet oddly while I dont like the new dependent side, I think Sam can find a place if they are going that route of Lara being needy. Sam now has a unique backstory I think that can be useful to the franchise to build upon? She could be used as a tool to make Sam more like the classic lara, thus showing the contrast between the classic lara and the modern lara. Maybe even becoming a rival of Lara Croft in the world of Adventure looking for treasure in exotic places since Sam is very keen to explore the world as seen in the flashback videos where she likes going out, and experiencing the cultures of the world by meeting those people. It came off that Lara was kinda more of a shut-in who didnt go out much ignoring the world, leaving Sam to be the one to break her out of that shell.

Metalrocks
8th Jul 2014, 12:45
Nope, you conceded on the 'realism' issue, and imma hold you to it next time :p

to a neutral responds, that has no id indication what so ever if i think if its realistic or not. good luck with that.:rasp:

d1n0_xD
8th Jul 2014, 12:52
It was a quote by Karl stewart who makes the new Tomb Raider games, something about how Lara Croft isnt an aristocrat. I read the exact quote but meh, it kinda angered me, I have an image of all these quotes people compiled of how they change the image of Tomb Raider to match the personal wants of the dev team but I keep deleting it because it angers me, haha. Good thing is I dont empty the recycling bin so it kinda just sits in there.

(Im more a fan of the classic kick butt lara who raided tombs. I think Im becoming less a fan of the more modern Lara where she seems to dependent, doesnt raid tombs, and just wants to please everyone, whereas the old Lara didnt care about pleasing anyone which was part of what made her awesome.)

Yet oddly while I dont like the new dependent side, I think Sam can find a place if they are going that route of Lara being needy. Sam now has a unique backstory I think that can be useful to the franchise to build upon? She could be used as a tool to make Sam more like the classic lara, thus showing the contrast between the classic lara and the modern lara. Maybe even becoming a rival of Lara Croft in the world of Adventure looking for treasure in exotic places since Sam is very keen to explore the world as seen in the flashback videos where she likes going out, and experiencing the cultures of the world by meeting those people. It came off that Lara was kinda more of a shut-in who didnt go out much ignoring the world, leaving Sam to be the one to break her out of that shell.

I'm sorry, man, but you absolutely make no goddamn sense :eek: How does "modern" Lara not raid tombs? How is she trying to please everyone? Please, explain this to me... And what's this all about Sam becoming Lara, what? :|

daventry
8th Jul 2014, 13:02
Yet oddly while I dont like the new dependent side, I think Sam can find a place if they are going that route of Lara being needy. Sam now has a unique backstory I think that can be useful to the franchise to build upon? She could be used as a tool to make Sam more like the classic lara, thus showing the contrast between the classic lara and the modern lara. Maybe even becoming a rival of Lara Croft in the world of Adventure looking for treasure in exotic places since Sam is very keen to explore the world as seen in the flashback videos where she likes going out, and experiencing the cultures of the world by meeting those people. It came off that Lara was kinda more of a shut-in who didnt go out much ignoring the world, leaving Sam to be the one to break her out of that shell.What the Hell are you Smoking, its Clearly Lara in the Trailer man. :lol:

Tomb Raider will Always BE about LARA CROFT :wave:

Its amazing how Delusion can get the best of someone. :nut:

LaraCroft04
8th Jul 2014, 14:35
Well to be fair, it's really too early to tell. It can possibly be pulled off if done right. Just because you can't come up with a good way to kill off Sam doesn't mean there isn't one :)


This is very true, if they managed to come up with a way for Sam to die that actually was done right and made sense to the story I have to admit I don't think I'd be too upset. I'd also much rather her die than need Lara to come to the rescue again too ! Seeing as both the novel and the comics seem to be following that storyline, she's becoming a liability haha.

Rai
8th Jul 2014, 14:48
Yet oddly while I dont like the new dependent side, I think Sam can find a place if they are going that route of Lara being needy. Sam now has a unique backstory I think that can be useful to the franchise to build upon? She could be used as a tool to make Sam more like the classic lara, thus showing the contrast between the classic lara and the modern lara. Maybe even becoming a rival of Lara Croft in the world of Adventure looking for treasure in exotic places since Sam is very keen to explore the world as seen in the flashback videos where she likes going out, and experiencing the cultures of the world by meeting those people. It came off that Lara was kinda more of a shut-in who didnt go out much ignoring the world, leaving Sam to be the one to break her out of that shell.
I don't know where you're getting this idea about Sam from. Perhaps you've misunderstood the flashbacks and journals from TR'13. Yes, while at Uni, it was Lara who had her head in a history book, and Samsel likes to party and would drag Lara to clubs to party where they'd meet 'cute guys'. But it was Lara who'd drag Sam round the historical sites when they went on holiday together. Sam was happy on the beach or whatever, it was Lara who was the explorer. They went on hiking trips, and this info is reiterated in the comics where Lara in reminiscing about Sam wanting to teach her to dance and Lara dragging her friend in the rain on the great wall of china and camping at Kilimanjaro, but they had fun as they were together. So Lara has always had this adventurous side and Sam the party side, so Sam was more sociable than Lara. You've got it mixed up. I don't think we'll be seeing Sam outshining Lara on the adventuring front any-time soon, if anything, Sam will be fed up with being targeted by the enemies all the time with her life in danger. I mean, who was it who risked her life time and again to save everyone from the Solarii and to ensure they could leave Yamatai? Who was it again who has travelled the globe risking her life to solve the mystery behind the prophecy and the cultist in the comics? Oh yes, Lara. Samsel is good at two things: Filmography and getting kidnapped. I have no idea where you'e getting the idea that Lara is needy from. :scratch:

As for Lara's aristocratic heritage I don't recall it ever being outright denied. Both Karl (marketing) and Rhianna Pratchett (writer) have confirmed that Lara 'comes from money', but they haven't disclosed if she's aristocratic, though Rhianna has hinted Lara has a title, and again in the comics Lara describes herself as having been a 'privileged British schoolgirl'.

d1n0_xD
8th Jul 2014, 15:43
^ Thank you. :D

daventry
8th Jul 2014, 16:50
You tell it like it is RAI :flowers:

Driber
8th Jul 2014, 20:16
^ That's right, I'm pretty sure that's how it went down, but I wanted BF to pull up a quote first :p

I guess he doesn't (despite it sitting in his recycling bin :D) because Karl never said the things BF claims he said, lol.


It was a quote by Karl stewart who makes the new Tomb Raider games, something about how Lara Croft isnt an aristocrat.

That is a misquote. Karl never said it like that. See my previous post on what he actually said ;)


to a neutral responds, that has no id indication what so ever if i think if its realistic or not. good luck with that.:rasp:

You really want to take it this far? Alrighty then...

I think your response wasn't 'neutral' at all. Maybe in your head, but not what you actually wrote.

Metal: lara is surely using high tech gear that allows her to have better reception than conventional gear.

Driber: Lara is surely using high-tech weapons that allows her to have more effective dual wielding than conventional weapons

Metal: what ever works for her i guess

How is that not an indication that you're responding positive to my point :p

I'm sorry man, but it seems to me that you've got out-debated and you're just trying to backpaddle now because you realized that your own argument works against you in the 'realism' debate :rasp:


This is very true, if they managed to come up with a way for Sam to die that actually was done right and made sense to the story I have to admit I don't think I'd be too upset. I'd also much rather her die than need Lara to come to the rescue again too ! Seeing as both the novel and the comics seem to be following that storyline, she's becoming a liability haha.

I hear ya, haha :D


As for Lara's aristocratic heritage I don't recall it ever being outright denied. Both Karl (marketing) and Rhianna Pratchett (writer) have confirmed that Lara 'comes from money', but they haven't disclosed if she's aristocratic, though Rhianna has hinted Lara has a title

This.


width=100

Okay, this one is actually pretty darn funny :lol: :lol:

:thumb:

Thetford
8th Jul 2014, 20:47
You tell it like it is RAI :flowers:





I see Lara has moved from her flat to a suburban semi, but has such good taste to hire a butler, if not redecorate.

NSW_pride
9th Jul 2014, 02:13
:lol:

Metalrocks
9th Jul 2014, 02:19
oh driber. this made me laugh. :lol:
its still neutral regardless.
and besides, you know very well what my view is about dual wielding in real life, so its obvious i want be supporting your view just like that all of sudden.

but hey, if you think its not, well, thats your view. so lets leave it at that :D

BridgetFisher
9th Jul 2014, 04:46
Guys are killing meh... ok I pulled this out of the recycling bin... I take no credit for this, didnt make it, but it is typically seen in general gaming forums when the subject of the new tomb raider games comes up. Now you too can enjoy the satisfaction of putting it in your recycling bin :D


http://i.imgur.com/x5ziGFc.png


Looking closer there are numbers like some kind of clickable citations, maybe googling those exact phrases would yield where this screenshot came from, time to get tomb raiding!

*Ah the comics thanks for sharing that, if only there was more time to read them, sometimes leaves me feeling like that guy in the twilight episode who finally gets a library but steps on his glasses :P

Tihocan
9th Jul 2014, 05:32
Guys are killing meh... ok I pulled this out of the recycling bin... I take no credit for this, didnt make it, but it is typically seen in general gaming forums when the subject of the new tomb raider games comes up. Now you too can enjoy the satisfaction of putting it in your recycling bin :D


width='100'


Looking closer there are numbers like some kind of clickable citations, maybe googling those exact phrases would yield where this screenshot came from, time to get tomb raiding!

*Ah the comics thanks for sharing that, if only there was more time to read them, sometimes leaves me feeling like that guy in the twilight episode who finally gets a library but steps on his glasses :P

That is totally misread, if you ask me.
She's not an "aristocrat" simply because they haven't pigeonholed her as one.
She works because she wants to, not because she needs to =/= "she's not rich".

Also - indeed, she's not posh. But, that's kinda "well, duh".

d1n0_xD
9th Jul 2014, 08:24
You're totally misunderstanding those quotes, BF :/

Driber
9th Jul 2014, 08:48
oh driber. this made me laugh. :lol:

Glad to entertain :D


its still neutral regardless.

No it's not :p


and besides, you know very well what my view is about dual wielding in real life, so its obvious i want be supporting your view just like that all of sudden.

Maybe not. Maybe I thought for a second that that you may have finally come to your senses after seeing yet another good example of how 'realism' destroys fun :p :D

Okay, but joking aside, you have to admit that what you wrote was a bit of a cop-out. Maybe you intentionally tried to joke it off because you know your argument doesn't hold up to logic, and this wasn't the first time you've displayed having double standards on the realism issue ;)

So I ask you - without joking - why are you so concerned about 'realism' in dual wielding but you don't give hoot about realism when it comes to things you're in favour of, such as the communication devices Lara uses, as brought up here in this thread?


Guys are killing meh... ok I pulled this out of the recycling bin... I take no credit for this, didnt make it, but it is typically seen in general gaming forums when the subject of the new tomb raider games comes up. Now you too can enjoy the satisfaction of putting it in your recycling bin :D


width='100'


Good thing you're not taking credit for that image, because it's sloppy work :p

Those "conclusions" in colored text in between quotes are not coming from the devs, obviously. Rai and I already provided these quotes, so that image is bringing nothing new to the table apart from interpretation by what appears to be a cynical fan (notice how everything is focused on keeping Lara 100% the same, and notice how he ignores parts of the quotes that work against his assumptions).

So this was posted on some gaming forums - big deal. People can post how many untruths as they want, but that doesn't make it true.

If I were you, I'd stick with the official FAQ. It's a thread near the top of the TR9 section. You can find all the official info there.

Rai
9th Jul 2014, 09:06
@BT, you've either misunderstood those quotes or you're deliberately misconstruing them for your own needs. Let's break it down a little, I'll match the colours to make it easier to tell what quotes I'm referring to with me having them in my post:

1, Karl wasn't outwardly denying Lara's social status as an aristocrat. He was saying they're simply not saying and it's not important to the game.

3, Again, Karl wasn't saying 'she isn't rich', he's giving reasons why she took a job, that isn't about money.

3, Rhianna's twitter reply here is out of context as we don't know what the original question is, plus it looks like that quote is edited. But it looks like she isn't saying (Lara?) isn't British, just that her parents may not be.

4, So Brian is saying she doesn't have that 'classic' English accent? So what? she still sounds articulate, well spoken. It's not traditional 'posh' (as in the Queen's accent posh) anymore, but thatt doesn't mean she's not rich.

I hope this clarifies things a little more :)


@Driber, I didn't see those official quotes you pulled out. Even so, so you're saying that as you've already pulled out these quotes, I'm not allowed to answer someone in my own way? So I may as well not contribute to the discussion as you've already done so? I find that slightly like a slap in face, quite frankly. It's a bit like the big kid who pushed in line and then he got the last go so all the smaller kids missed out (:p). What image are you referring to? something I posted? I haven't posted an image? Actually, colour me confused.

Driber
9th Jul 2014, 09:17
^ I may have worded that wrong.

I meant that you and I already covered those quotes from CD concerning aristocracy and Lara's mansion, and said that to make the point that the image BF pulled up contains nothing new apart from assumptions made by a fan.

I was not at all trying to dictate that people aren't allowed to post whatever they want just because it may have already been covered before, no. That would be crazy :eek:

Apologies for the confusion :o

Rai
9th Jul 2014, 10:00
Oh. It looks like I misunderstood what you were saying then, sowwy.

Metalrocks
9th Jul 2014, 14:36
Maybe not. Maybe I thought for a second that that you may have finally come to your senses after seeing yet another good example of how 'realism' destroys fun :p :D

Okay, but joking aside, you have to admit that what you wrote was a bit of a cop-out. Maybe you intentionally tried to joke it off because you know your argument doesn't hold up to logic, and this wasn't the first time you've displayed having double standards on the realism issue ;)

So I ask you - without joking - why are you so concerned about 'realism' in dual wielding but you don't give hoot about realism when it comes to things you're in favour of, such as the communication devices Lara uses, as brought up here in this thread?


i never said that im concerned about having dual wielding in games. just wanted to point out that in real life dual wielding is not as effective as we see in games and movies. thats was the point i was trying to make.

regarding communication, these devices do exist. just you pay a **** load of money for it. but if we go in full realism, obviously being deep underground or being deep in caves would be a problem. regardless of having the best tool in the world. so dont get me wrong there. im not that unrealistic. even when i didnt point it out in my comment.

just to make it clear; i never expect that a game is 100% realistic. regardless if they try. we all know that lara would have never survived half of the incidences on the island.

Driber
9th Jul 2014, 20:11
i never said that im concerned about having dual wielding in games. just wanted to point out that in real life dual wielding is not as effective as we see in games and movies.

I don't believe this.

Are you telling me that you never advocated against dual wielding in TR? Did you not say that Lara should stick to a single gun because "it would not fit with the 'realistic setting' of the new game"?

C'mon man, let's keep it real. You really did express that you're against dual wielding in TR because you don't find it realistic enough and you weren't JUST "pointing out how it goes IRL". Or am I going crazy? :nut:


regarding communication, these devices do exist. just you pay a **** load of money for it. but if we go in full realism, obviously being deep underground or being deep in caves would be a problem. regardless of having the best tool in the world. so dont get me wrong there. im not that unrealistic. even when i didnt point it out in my comment.

So you're saying that Lara chattering with Sam over the radio while Lara is deep inside a tomb in the middle of nowhere, as Thetford put it, and while Sam is hundreds or thousands of miles away, is realistic enough, and you want to see it implemented in the next game, even though you yourself say that such a thing would be impossible even with the best communication tools in the world, but Lara shooting 2 guns (at once, or alternating), even as a means of defending herself, is way too unrealistic and shouldn't be in TR?

I'm sorry, but you really aren't doing a good job proving that you're not applying double standards in the realism issue.


just to make it clear; i never expect that a game is 100% realistic. regardless if they try. we all know that lara would have never survived half of the incidences on the island.

I understand. And I'm sure no one here thinks you expect a TR game to be 100% realistic. It's just that you seem to draw the 'realism card' very quickly whenever it comes to things you dislike, while dismissing it or waving it off as unimportant when it comes to things you do like to see in a TR game.

Metalrocks
10th Jul 2014, 01:31
i think you are going crazy, yes :lol:. did i ever complained about the ending of lara having 2 guns shooting mathias or in any TR game? no.
i just said it would be nice to see her with one gun since CD wants to go in to the realistic direction and i gave an explanation why dual wielding is not as realistic as having a single gun. but i never said that i dont want to see her dual wielding in the next title. i just put up a fight after you said that my instructor and all the other experts are wrong. ;)

ok, now you made me look up thetfords comment again to see if i missed that part. and yes i did :mad2:. so this is clearly my mistake. i just had in my memory the "far away" part but not the "deep in tombs" part.

Tihocan
10th Jul 2014, 02:28
Are you telling me that you never advocated against dual wielding in TR? Did you not say that Lara should stick to a single gun because "it would not fit with the 'realistic setting' of the new game"?

Oh man, I struggle with this one so much. Dual wielding of any weapon other than by a behemoth of a person is so damn unrealistic, but it just looks so damn cool.


So you're saying that Lara chattering with Sam over the radio while Lara is deep inside a tomb in the middle of nowhere, as Thetford put it, and while Sam is hundreds or thousands of miles away, is realistic enough, and you want to see it implemented in the next game, even though you yourself say that such a thing would be impossible even with the best communication tools in the world...
I want this to be a story element - sure, anyone she communicates with can be anywhere within sensible range, but if she ventures into the deep undergrounds there should be a serious element of isolation.


... you seem to draw the 'realism card' very quickly whenever it comes to things you dislike, while dismissing it or waving it off as unimportant when it comes to things you do like to see in a TR game.
I tend to do this also. But there are elements that are jarring for anyone with a basic knowledge of the subject, which may damage immersion for the sake of "fun".
Sure, go ahead and say that the primary point of the game is "fun", but what logic for me is "we gave Lara the ability to fly, because that was fun".

For me, highly improper weapon usage (eg. Drake's shooting back with an assault rifle, anyone who can suddenly use a katana, dual wielding, etc) is a point of "I no longer take this seriously". It infuriates me that Rick Grimes can headshot zombies with single hand fire while running.

Driber
10th Jul 2014, 12:14
did i ever complained about the ending of lara having 2 guns shooting mathias or in any TR game? no.

Because that was that a scripted scene. That doesn't count when the discussion is about regular gameplay.


i just said it would be nice to see her with one gun since CD wants to go in to the realistic direction and i gave an explanation why dual wielding is not as realistic as having a single gun. but i never said that i dont want to see her dual wielding in the next title.

Alright, I looked it up for you.

"since they aim to make the new TR more realistic, i do agree a bit that she should keep 1 pistol"

That is literally what you said. So no, I'm not going crazy and remember it correctly that you did in fact advocate against dual guns in the new TR :p


i just put up a fight after you said that my instructor and all the other experts are wrong.

I never said that :lol:


ok, now you made me look up thetfords comment again to see if i missed that part. and yes i did :mad2:. so this is clearly my mistake. i just had in my memory the "far away" part but not the "deep in tombs" part.

lol, glad we cleared that up then :D


Oh man, I struggle with this one so much. Dual wielding of any weapon other than by a behemoth of a person is so damn unrealistic, but it just looks so damn cool.

Behemoth? Didn't you mean bicephalic? :scratch:

And no, it's not "damn unrealistic". Only in certain very specific situations one may shoot less accurate with 2 pistols. But you can't give a blanket statement like this that it's supposedly always "unrealistic". That just doesn't fly, good Sir :whistle:

Regardless, it does indeed look bad-ass, heh.


I want this to be a story element - sure, anyone she communicates with can be anywhere within sensible range, but if she ventures into the deep undergrounds there should be a serious element of isolation.

You know, this may very well be the best reason to have Lara's radio stop working - to give the player a feeling of isolation. Much better than the whole "realism" argument, IMO :thumb:


I tend to do this also. But there are elements that are jarring for anyone with a basic knowledge of the subject, which may damage immersion for the sake of "fun".
Sure, go ahead and say that the primary point of the game is "fun", but what logic for me is "we gave Lara the ability to fly, because that was fun".

For me, highly improper weapon usage (eg. Drake's shooting back with an assault rifle, anyone who can suddenly use a katana, dual wielding, etc) is a point of "I no longer take this seriously". It infuriates me that Rick Grimes can headshot zombies with single hand fire while running.

Meh, that's a generalization. People can have a basic knowledge of a subject and still "go with it" because they realize it's a videogame.

It seems to me that only people who have a tendency to nitpick have a "problem immersing themselves" when it comes to small details like these :whistle:

Thetford
10th Jul 2014, 14:02
Maybe perhaps Core Lara was accurately portraying the difficulties of dual wielding, considering the amount of shots it takes to kill someone, unless you know, the various militaries, museums, waterworks and villains hired security and goons that are 75% Kevlar.

Metalrocks
10th Jul 2014, 14:02
and it said "i agree a bit". not fully. so this means im not totally against it. ;)

and yes, your indication pretty much states that that they are wrong when you call them arrogant and stubborn. ;)
just looked it up too.

well, we clearly will not come to a settlement. so lets leave it at that.

Driber
10th Jul 2014, 21:30
and it said "i agree a bit". not fully. so this means im not totally against it.

And I never said you were totally against it. Even though you used the words "a bit" that doesn't mean you weren't advocating against dual wielding, so I am still right in saying that I remember correctly that you advocated against it in the past ;)


and yes, your indication pretty much states that that they are wrong when you call them arrogant and stubborn.

No it doesn't. There's no way that those instructors exhausted each and every possible scenario, so when I then say that they sound stubborn and arrogant by making blanket statements such as "dual wielding doesn't work, period" (paraphrasing), that means that their judgement shouldn't be trusted as universal fact. Just because you call yourself a 'weapons expert' doesn't mean that your opinions are always correct. So me advising to apply skepticism when it comes to self-proclaimed 'experts' who display arrogance is something quite different than saying "they are absolutely wrong", which I never did ;)

Rai
10th Jul 2014, 22:30
@Driber and Metal, my golly you two are like two dogs over a bone. You said, no you said!

When do we get back to getting rid of Sam? :p

:lol:

Driber
10th Jul 2014, 22:38
lol, if it was up to me, we could have avoided this entire chain right here :p

As for getting rid of Samsel.... LEAD THE WAY! :D :D