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gkkiller
23rd Jun 2014, 12:54
In older Hitman games, stealth was about finding a good route through enemies, using disguises, and pulling off your hit without getting busted. It's ok if you had to take out one or two guards - as long as no one stumbled across them, it was fine. In Absolution, you were rewarded more for using cover, jumping around in front of enemies' eyes and tossing objects everywhere to make enemies look away. And of course there was the broken disguise system. This annoyed a lot of fans - while cover-to-cover sneaking is acceptable in something like Splinter Cell, it's probably not a good idea to include it in a Hitman game.

So, how do you suggest developers fix the stealth systems? Which game had the best stealth? I haven't played Codename 47 or Contracts so I don't know how stealth worked in either one, but Silent Assassin's stealth is lots of fun. It's not overpowered, and once you get used to it, it's not ridiculously tough either. The disguise system is unforgiving, but it just encourages you to be fairly careful.

One of the coolest things about Silent Assassin's stealth is that if you play it cool and confident, guards are less likely to start pumping you with lead. Just keep walking towards your goal, ignoring all enemies - don't break into a run or start skulking around. Keep moving purposefully. They'll leave you alone after an odd look or two if you do this. This adds to the realism of the game, and I'd love to see the confidence card being played.

Also, blending. It shouldn't cost any resources to make 47 tilt his head away or pull his cap a little lower. It should just be something he automatically does while walking (note I said walking and not running) past an NPC. To make the system a little more complex, change NPC reactions. For a civilian, for example, if 47 is dressed as an authority figure (let's say a policeman), they might wonder why he's acting so shady, but they probably wouldn't stop him and question him. But if it was another policeman, he'd probably take a closer look. Get what I mean?

AdrianShephard
23rd Jun 2014, 15:30
It really pissed me off how if you walked right past somebody in Absolution on any Professional difficulty, they would immediately see through the disguise. Hitman 2 had the best disguise system in my opinion. As you said, as long as you kept on walking towards your goal, no one would stop you. The meter would be flipping out but you'd be fine. They only fired at you if you stayed in a guy's face for 5 seconds or more.

Absolution felt too much like Splinter Cell if you try to play it Silent Assassin. Not only that, I felt like the "challenges" really lent to this feel because there were things like "complete with suit only" that made it virtually impossible to not play the game cover-to-cover.

I actually like the refined combat in Absolution though. I just beat the game again going guns blazing and I was surprised how easy it was. I definitely played worse 3rd person shooter games.

Stevo91186
26th Jun 2014, 13:18
I completely agree with all of this.

The stealth system needs to be as close as possible to H2 and blood money.

I played those two the most because they allowed me to do what I wanted, and still achieve silent assassin.
Absolution? Not even close. Better not let that clown see you with that red nose...

MrJohnson
8th Jul 2014, 19:10
I'd say H:Contracts had the best disguise system.
In Silent Assassin, guards tend to be suspicious for really nothing.
In Blood Money, even if I did love it, it was indeed kinda "OP", MOST (but not all) guards just didn't care at all about you as long as you had a disguise.

In Contracts, it was pretty much a balance between those two. You could go around quite freely, but if you started doing actually suspicious stuff, **** was going down.

Not related to stealthy, but in Contracts, there was a scene I really enjoyed : I don't remember the mission's name, but there was a special forces team assaulting a boat, with a sniper, 2 squads, and all. And if you managed to steal an outfit from them, you could actually go with them, go in first person mode (which means waving your guns up like they do, which usually gets you spotted in other disguises), and even shoot at all the bad guys like them, be a part of the squad, infiltrate the boat with them, then you could just go inside freely, find the target, kill him (without being spotted by the sniper who had an eye on him because the target is supposed to be taken alive), and then go away.

This is not exactly "stealth", since you have to kill the terrorists in the boat and all, but I'd like something like that in the next game.

kennj4
8th Jul 2014, 22:32
Yes Deadly Cargo I think you're talking about. Funny I never thought of going in with the Swat team until recently. I always did it the hard way.

FootFetish4Life
24th Jul 2014, 19:07
I think both aspects are equally important, social stealth and sneaking. I think a good portion of both is necessary.

In Absolution, I can see where they were trying to correct the relaxed disguise system from Blood Money, they just did a terrible job. NPC's making you out from across the room, the AI was pretty much the same with every NPC.

First and foremost, 47 is an assassin, he's not really supposed to take any old disguise and walk freely as he pleases. There has to be an element of hiding in the shadows. I think this is what Absolution tried to correct. I think the main problem with Absolution wasn't really the disguise system, not entirely anyway. It was the structure of the gameplay and the levels themselves. A good example of an ideal system in Absolution was the level Terminus, there were plenty of hotel staff members that couldn't be bypassed because either you had your suit or you were dressed as one of them, but there were plenty of obstacles to hide behind and an air duct to get around them. The same could not be said about other levels. In other levels that were more linear, you had to face the NPC's head on in most cases.

Social stealth and sneaking are both important. SS, for when you want to fool people in a different disguise, and sneaking, for when you need to avoid sensitive NPC's like co-workers or when you're in a restricted area. For sneaking, I think I read a brilliant idea on an old post about including the ability to low crawl to give you extra concealment in some areas (around water fountains, tall grass, etc.), barrel rolls, shooting on your back or from the prone position and improve the cover-to-cover system.

All in all, both aspects are important.

LeMoN_LiMe
24th Jul 2014, 21:08
I really enjoyed H:A.

But the disguise system was a joke. Bring back Blood Money and I'll be happy.

AdrianShephard
24th Jul 2014, 22:49
I hated how Absolution if you are on the opposite side of a room with a guard, he will slowly keep on getting suspicious until you get spotted. This made it so you were always moving...it was much easier to just play cover-to-cover which broke the game.

nomotog
27th Jul 2014, 20:14
No splinter cell stealth. If I had my way, cover stealth would be impossible or impractical in most places. Make it all about disguises and finding elements in the environment to manipulate. When your in the right disguise for the area your in, you should be more of less free to move around and observe without much time presser. (Not like HM:A were even if your disguises, you have to keep moving and hiding like it's pack-man.) I also think different disguises should have benefits and requirements. If your dressed as a guard, you can have a gun drawn openly. If your dressed as a maintenance guy, you can smuggle items in your tool box.

FootFetish4Life
27th Jul 2014, 22:04
No splinter cell stealth. If I had my way, cover stealth would be impossible or impractical in most places. Make it all about disguises and finding elements in the environment to manipulate. When your in the right disguise for the area your in, you should be more of less free to move around and observe without much time presser. (Not like HM:A were even if your disguises, you have to keep moving and hiding like it's pack-man.) I also think different disguises should have benefits and requirements. If your dressed as a guard, you can have a gun drawn openly. If your dressed as a maintenance guy, you can smuggle items in your tool box.

What about for levels that are in, say, Japan or the Congo or the Middle East where 47 would stand out like a sore thumb? This idea of a purely disguise based stealth system is too simple. There has to be an element of sneaking. In, Silent Assassin, for example, just because 47 couldn't hide behind cover doesn't mean there wasn't any sneaking involved. The level Hidden Valley, there were lots of situations where the disguise was worthless, I'll admit, probably the worst level to be like that since everyone had a mask.

Blood Money had the advantage that every level was Western. In Contracts I felt really odd walking around pretending to be Japanese, imagine doing that in HD. If that suits your style fine, but I don't know how IO is gonna approach some of these locations.

nomotog
28th Jul 2014, 01:02
What about for levels that are in, say, Japan or the Congo or the Middle East where 47 would stand out like a sore thumb? This idea of a purely disguise based stealth system is too simple. There has to be an element of sneaking. In, Silent Assassin, for example, just because 47 couldn't hide behind cover doesn't mean there wasn't any sneaking involved. The level Hidden Valley, there were lots of situations where the disguise was worthless, I'll admit, probably the worst level to be like that since everyone had a mask.

Blood Money had the advantage that every level was Western. In Contracts I felt really odd walking around pretending to be Japanese, imagine doing that in HD. If that suits your style fine, but I don't know how IO is gonna approach some of these locations.

Well you just don't do those levels. Same reason you wouldn't do a underwater level. I can go a lot of places and play a cover based stealth game. I really can't go anywhere but hitman to assassinate someone with a poisoned cocktail. I think, hitman should focus on what makes it unique.

FootFetish4Life
28th Jul 2014, 01:56
Well you just don't do those levels. Same reason you wouldn't do a underwater level. I can go a lot of places and play a cover based stealth game. I really can't go anywhere but hitman to assassinate someone with a poisoned cocktail. I think, hitman should focus on what makes it unique.

Even in Blood Money there were certain areas a janitor wasn't allowed. There will always be some form of sneaking, especially when the Silent Assassin rating is concerned, whether it's for a small portion of the game or most of it.

I wouldn't mind having a few levels in the colored region of the world where 47 actually has to use his brain to get around. As long as most of the game has traditional disguises it won't be the end of the world.

Idk, maybe The Agency has agents of other ethnicities they send to these places. All I know is in Hitman 6 I don't wanna be the only blue eyed Albino walking through a gang of Yakuza.

AdrianShephard
28th Jul 2014, 03:48
I did virtually no sneaking in BM and still got SA on all missions.

That being said, I don't mind some sneaking in parts of levels. Just not too much since 47 is incredibly slow while crouching.

Still Hitman, is known for the multiple ways of completing a mission and I wouldn't want to be penalized (by not getting SA) for not sneaking around.

gkkiller
28th Jul 2014, 05:07
For regions where the majority are of a non-Western ethnicity, simply add in a few guards who are masked, and make it a little more difficult to walk around in the disguise of a non-masked guard.

FootFetish4Life
28th Jul 2014, 05:29
Man, I'm playing Splinter Cell for the first time, the first game. This is the game I've been looking for. It's actually a real stealth game. I just wish it had the advantage of civilian locations and not having to wear that loud recon outfit and goggles all the time, and wearing a suit, like Hitman. But I don't know what everyone is smoking. Splinter Cell's style is cool!

There should definitely be a game that's a hybrid of Hitman, Splinter Cell and Metal Gear Solid. Maybe I'll make my own game.

gkkiller
28th Jul 2014, 10:41
Man, I'm playing Splinter Cell for the first time, the first game. This is the game I've been looking for. It's actually a real stealth game. I just wish it had the advantage of civilian locations and not having to wear that loud recon outfit and goggles all the time, and wearing a suit, like Hitman. But I don't know what everyone is smoking. Splinter Cell's style is cool!

There should definitely be a game that's a hybrid of Hitman, Splinter Cell and Metal Gear Solid. Maybe I'll make my own game.

The problem with Splinter Cell is how linear it is. There's nowhere near as much freedom as there is in Hitman. Chaos Theory is better (the first half at least), and Double Agent to some extent, but the rest of the series is very linear.

AdrianShephard
28th Jul 2014, 13:55
Man, I'm playing Splinter Cell for the first time, the first game. This is the game I've been looking for. It's actually a real stealth game. I just wish it had the advantage of civilian locations and not having to wear that loud recon outfit and goggles all the time, and wearing a suit, like Hitman. But I don't know what everyone is smoking. Splinter Cell's style is cool!

There should definitely be a game that's a hybrid of Hitman, Splinter Cell and Metal Gear Solid. Maybe I'll make my own game.

Splinter Cell is its own genre (professional ninja). It is an excellent series (the first 4) but very different from Hitman. There are a handful of Splinter Cell missions that are sandbox and that's where the series really shines. That, and the mission locales are very varied making the game refreshing. My favorite level on the 1st game has to be the CIA HQ level (this isn't really a spoiler but just in case you don't want to know where you are going next. The last mission is also very cool.

If you can get your hands on Splinter Cell 2: Pandora Tomorrow, I would highly recommend that you play it. It's not on Steam and I don't think it's on GOG (good thing I bought all the originals on Xbox!) but you'll love the train level...I really want something like that in Hitman (making your way forward on the side of a moving train and dodging oncoming trains).

As the previous poster mentioned, Chaos Theory is the pinnacle of the series. Double Agent is awesome too but it was my first hands-on introduction to the series (even though I've seen my brothers play the older ones) so it may just be the nostalgia since every gives that game flak.

Don't play Conviction or Blacklist unless you want to cry yourself to sleep. It's a tradegy that a hardcore stealth series fell so far.

gkkiller
29th Jul 2014, 07:37
Conviction is awesome*! As long as you forget the gameplay of all previous games. Seriously, it's the one that got me into the series. Afterwards I tried Blacklist and didn't like it half as much as Conviction because Conviction knew what it wanted to be: angry Sam killing people and not giving a **** about stealth. Blacklist felt like Conviction with half-assed stealth mechanics.

*Iraq doesn't count. That level is ****.

AdrianShephard
29th Jul 2014, 09:26
Conviction is awesome*! As long as you forget the gameplay of all previous games. Seriously, it's the one that got me into the series. Afterwards I tried Blacklist and didn't like it half as much as Conviction because Conviction knew what it wanted to be: angry Sam killing people and not giving a **** about stealth. Blacklist felt like Conviction with half-assed stealth mechanics.

*Iraq doesn't count. That level is ****.

Conviction is an alright game by itself, same with Absolution. But how can you forget the gameplay of the older titles? Splinter Cell is such influential video game series (even the first game is called "stealth action redefined" :D) that based everything on stealth...then to throw it out the window in order to tell a "angry Sam" story? You know what that reminds me of? Absolution. The devs change the protagonist that we all fell in love with to something way out of character -- in their respective cases Sam getting angry (so angry to forget stealth) and 47 getting soft.

I'm pretty sure Ubi could've told an angry Sam story without turning its back on everything the series stood for. You can be sneaky and angry at the same time! We don't have to sacrifice gameplay for the mood Ubi wanted to create (the same cannot be said for Hitman...which is why I forgive you, IO :)). Double Agent is a perfect example of blending previous gameplay with an alright story and a depressing atmosphere (huge props to Michael McCann). Why Ubi didn't want to go this route is anyone's guess, though the most probable one is that they sold out to the casual crowd in hopes of making SC the new Assassins Creed.

Anyway this thread isn't about Splinter Cell (my fault for derailing the conversation). As you can probably tell, I'm incredibly pissed about what happened and have been on an Ubisoft boycott eversince Blacklist was released. At least Hitman is one of a few classic series alive today that has some hint of what it used to be.

Soleil
29th Jul 2014, 16:19
I fully agree to your first passage. In my opinion, Blood Money has by far the best disguise system.

AdrianShephard
29th Jul 2014, 16:37
I fully agree to your first passage. In my opinion, Blood Money has by far the best disguise system.

Maybe IO should change the disguise system based on your difficulty; the easier ones get a disguise system closer to BM while the harder ones get systems closer to H2/Contracts.

Care to share why you think BM has the best one?

Soleil
30th Jul 2014, 11:07
Maybe IO should change the disguise system based on your difficulty; the easier ones get a disguise system closer to BM while the harder ones get systems closer to H2/Contracts.

Care to share why you think BM has the best one?

As I can remember, as well in Silent Assassin as in Contracts the guards shoot on you, if they see you in a closed area and you need to start from the last savegame if you dont wanna kill everyone. In Blood Money, in the same situation the guards first ask you to leave, and if you do so, you can finish your mission in a normal way, without attracting any further attention. Or short: the disguise system in Blood Money is more graduated. Thats why I didnt like the system in Absolution: more sneaking, less meaning of disguises.

(sry for my bad english, I hope I made it clear ^^)

AdrianShephard
30th Jul 2014, 15:42
As I can remember, as well in Silent Assassin as in Contracts the guards shoot on you, if they see you in a closed area and you need to start from the last savegame if you dont wanna kill everyone. In Blood Money, in the same situation the guards first ask you to leave, and if you do so, you can finish your mission in a normal way, without attracting any further attention. Or short: the disguise system in Blood Money is more graduated. Thats why I didnt like the system in Absolution: more sneaking, less meaning of disguises.

(sry for my bad english, I hope I made it clear ^^)

I'm pretty sure the guards in Contracts run up to you and ask you to leave in most areas unless it's a very protected restricted area or you're dealing with SWAT. But I wouldn't put that under "disguise system" necessarily, more under AI...when I think of disguise system I only consider NPC reactions to you when you are in a disguise out in the open, not when you don't have an appropriate disguise and are in a restricted area.

Soleil
30th Jul 2014, 21:31
I'm pretty sure the guards in Contracts run up to you and ask you to leave in most areas unless it's a very protected restricted area or you're dealing with SWAT. But I wouldn't put that under "disguise system" necessarily, more under AI...when I think of disguise system I only consider NPC reactions to you when you are in a disguise out in the open, not when you don't have an appropriate disguise and are in a restricted area.

Hm, then an other aspect, as i wrote in Absolution forum's "Top 5 Good and Bad" thread:



...
Bad:
...

-disguise system. i really hate it. the really special thing about hitman always was the disguise system as we knew it, it made you satisfied that you are operating behind enemy lines and noone even had a single suspicion of who you are. this allure is now gone
...


I hope I made it clearer now ^^

And really? As far as I remembered, Silent Assassin and Contracts were not that much different in that point, but it can be as you said.

AdrianShephard
30th Jul 2014, 22:46
And really? As far as I remembered, Silent Assassin and Contracts were not that much different in that point, but it can be as you said.

Silent Assassin looks the same as Contracts graphics wise but BM and Contracts are actually quite similar. Some things they share that weren't in H2:

-the warnings from NPC's that you are in a restricted area
-the inventory system
-the animations for strangling (though the animation where 47 puts the NPC on his back is somewhat rare)
-syringes
-more "accident" opportunites (though they don't formally call them accidents until BM)

I understand that wearing disguises behind enemy lines is what makes Hitman cool...but if there is no risk of being caught (BM), then there isn't much fun in it.

nomotog
1st Aug 2014, 05:23
Silent Assassin looks the same as Contracts graphics wise but BM and Contracts are actually quite similar. Some things they share that weren't in H2:

-the warnings from NPC's that you are in a restricted area
-the inventory system
-the animations for strangling (though the animation where 47 puts the NPC on his back is somewhat rare)
-syringes
-more "accident" opportunites (though they don't formally call them accidents until BM)

I understand that wearing disguises behind enemy lines is what makes Hitman cool...but if there is no risk of being caught (BM), then there isn't much fun in it.

You don't need the risk of being caught to have fun. The fun in hitman comes more from the exploration aspect. You know how you look around the map looking at all the different ways you can complete your mission and trying to think of the most stealthy way to accomplish that.

AdrianShephard
1st Aug 2014, 06:14
You don't need the risk of being caught to have fun. The fun in hitman comes more from the exploration aspect. You know how you look around the map looking at all the different ways you can complete your mission and trying to think of the most stealthy way to accomplish that.

Absolutely, and stealth in Hitman means hiding in plain sight (unless you count going through using only the suit). But with the disguise system of BM, stealth is reduced from hiding in plain sight to not being caught in the act of killing. To hide implies the risk of being discovered...but that's not possible in BM unless you are being reckless.

There has to be some form of risk involved for the game to be fun. I understand that that statement is highly subjective, but without the potential for failure, why even try? Yeah, you can intentionally gimp yourself in BM to make the game harder and arguably more fun...but that's the thing, the harder the assassination the more fun you have with it -- except when the game is broken like in Hidden Valley.

Before people start calling me out, I know there are several factors attributing to whether the game is 'fun' or not. Apart from the novelty of discovering all the new ways to kill a target, I believe the difficulty in completing them and the sense of accomplishment that follows is what the player feels as 'fun' if you are playing correctly*.

*: This means not shooting anything that moves as carnage is not the way Hitman is meant to be played.

FootFetish4Life
12th Aug 2014, 03:56
I started playing Hitman kind of late in the game, so I didn't really take it too seriously when playing Contracts or Silent Assassin. Both games I played kind of casually and I didn't really concern myself with getting Silent Assassin. However, due to boredom and lack of good games I started playing them with SA in mind.

Let me tell you, playing Contracts via the Silent Assassin route is way more fun than playing it casual. It forces you to be more secretive and you discover opportunities you otherwise would've missed if you just strangled anyone that got in your way. Also, you just feel more like you're in 47's shoes, doing a job and performing it to a standard the client expects: minimal collateral damage, and you're just more predatory and creative.

That being said, sneaking is an important part of Hitman, especially when you've already reached your limit for dead bodyguards, and it's just more immersive. As 47, a disguise is meant to gain you access to certain areas or to bypass certain situations. It should not be a means to an end, regardless of whether 47 is in disguise or not, he still has certain characteristics, such as blue eyes, an albino complexion, that could give the authorities clues to his identity. 47 should strive to be unseen, but reveal himself if he has to.

After sedating a certain NPC, they wake up and alert everyone, now 47 has to find a different disguise, that's sneaking, and that's fun.

What sets Hitman apart from other games like Splinter Cell, is the momentum it carries while infiltrating and carrying out your assingment, you're not stuck in one spot for too long. But Hitman is still a stealth game, always has been, and this "social stealth" term everyone's bringing up was just coined by somebody a few months ago. It's not the set-in-stone way to play.

I do not think Hitman should be like Splinter Cell. I don't know who brought that up or who misinterpret it. I just started playing SC for the first time and I can tell you, there's too much stop-and-go, it reminded me of football, which I also hate with a passion.

Hitman has better momentum. I do think, however, that there should be sneaking involved on a funner, lesser scale, such as cover walking and the somersault from Absolution while switching cover, popping out of a dumpster and pulling someone back inside with you, fun stuff, like that.

There should be a perfect balance, nonetheless. After all, silent assassin implies being unseen. 47 is a silent assassin, not an undercover cop.

AdrianShephard
12th Aug 2014, 05:44
That being said, sneaking is an important part of Hitman, especially when you've already reached your limit for dead bodyguards, and it's just more immersive. As 47, a disguise is meant to gain you access to certain areas or to bypass certain situations. It should not be a means to an end, regardless of whether 47 is in disguise or not, he still has certain characteristics, such as blue eyes, an albino complexion, that could give the authorities clues to his identity. 47 should strive to be unseen, but reveal himself if he has to.

After sedating a certain NPC, they wake up and alert everyone, now 47 has to find a different disguise, that's sneaking, and that's fun.

What sets Hitman apart from other games like Splinter Cell, is the momentum it carries while infiltrating and carrying out your assingment, you're not stuck in one spot for too long. But Hitman is still a stealth game, always has been, and this "social stealth" term everyone's bringing up was just coined by somebody a few months ago. It's not the set-in-stone way to play.

I do not think Hitman should be like Splinter Cell. I don't know who brought that up or who misinterpret it. I just started playing SC for the first time and I can tell you, there's too much stop-and-go, it reminded me of football, which I also hate with a passion.

Hitman has better momentum. I do think, however, that there should be sneaking involved on a funner, lesser scale, such as cover walking and the somersault from Absolution while switching cover, popping out of a dumpster and pulling someone back inside with you, fun stuff, like that.

There should be a perfect balance, nonetheless. After all, silent assassin implies being unseen. 47 is a silent assassin, not an undercover cop.

First things first, the term "social stealth" was not coined by the OP. He may be the firs one to relate it to Hitman on this board but I've seen the term used back in 2007-2008 when rumors started coming out about SC: Conviction.

Where are you getting this "strive to be unseen" balogne? Do you not see how the levels were designed in the previous Hitman games?...it's extremely difficult to go through suit only. This "sneaking" you speak of was used sparingly...just to get to your next disguise. Disguises aren't a means to an end if you have a semi functioning disguise system because then there are chances to get caught. Nobody said Hitman should be like SC...people are saying it shouldn't be like it. SC is brought up because it is a well known stealth game that focuses on being unseen, and that is how most levels in Absolution felt. You see, the fact that you had to play the game unseen is what ruined it!

You think finding a new disguise after an NPC you sedate alerts everyone is fun? I call that a screw up.

No no no silent assassin does not imply being unseen, it means there aren't any witnesses.

Hitman isn't about playing cover to cover. If it was, I'm sure as hell the devs would've included it in te past Hitman games. You are always supposed to be in the open, and the game catered to that. Sneaking for prolonged periods of time was hell because of the speed 47 moved. Seems to me like you want the game to focus on being a "silent predator" type game where you pop out of nowhere to kill. Get your fix in SC: Conviction, that doesn't belong in Hitman.

FootFetish4Life
12th Aug 2014, 06:48
Where are you getting this "strive to be unseen" balogne? Do you not see how the levels were designed in the previous Hitman games?...it's extremely difficult to go through suit only. This "sneaking" you speak of was used sparingly...just to get to your next disguise. Disguises aren't a means to an end if you have a semi functioning disguise system because then there are chances to get caught. Nobody said Hitman should be like SC...people are saying it shouldn't be like it. SC is brought up because it is a well known stealth game that focuses on being unseen, and that is how most levels in Absolution felt. You see, the fact that you had to play the game unseen is what ruined it!

Okay, must be your time of the month. You're blowing my comment way out of proportion. First of all, I never said anything about suit only. You were the one who said there's no fun if there's no risk involved, and that Blood Money's disguise system is too lenient? I guess I'm confused on where you stand. To me, sneaking doesn't necessarily mean tip-toeing from point A to point B, it just means not using a disguise as an all-access pass. And those who want to play more covert should be able to. I think this is where subjectivity comes into play. In Hitman, there's a rating system, which is based off of the premise that you're a silent assassin; leave no witnesses and minimal collateral damage. LEAVE NO WITNESSES. That includes people who have seen your face, regardless of whether you were disguised or not. I guess I'm the type of player who gets more immersed in the game and the environment, and I guess you're the type where the immersion ends on the surface, which explains your preference to strafe exclusively on another thread. Difference in preference. If some people want to speed run and run backwards through every mission be my guest.


You think finding a new disguise after an NPC you sedate alerts everyone is fun? I call that a screw up.

Then why even have a syringe in Contracts? which, btw, did not affect your SA rating if an NPC woke up. At the end of the day, the bodies are found, a homicide is ruled by the authorities, it doesn't take a PhD to figure out that somebody was murdered. So, what does it matter whether your victim wakes up before or after you leave, as long as you weren't caught? What was the point, then, to have a syringe? Please.


No no no silent assassin does not imply being unseen, it means there aren't any witnesses.

Dude, there are certain situations where that would be impossible, in the context of Hitman. And yes, Silent Assassin does imply keeping a low profile, which in turn would imply not becoming familiar with every one at the target site. You really look at things on the surface.


Hitman isn't about playing cover to cover. If it was, I'm sure as hell the devs would've included it in te past Hitman games. You are always supposed to be in the open, and the game catered to that. Sneaking for prolonged periods of time was hell because of the speed 47 moved. Seems to me like you want the game to focus on being a "silent predator" type game where you pop out of nowhere to kill. Get your fix in SC: Conviction, that doesn't belong in Hitman.

It seems there's confusion over what sneaking and social stealth are. Sneaking doesn't mean tip-toeing everywhere, it just means being covert, and social stealth is basically putting on a disguise and doing whatever you want.

AdrianShephard
12th Aug 2014, 07:32
First of all, I never said anything about suit only. You were the one who said there's no fun if there's no risk involved, and that Blood Money's disguise system is too lenient? I guess I'm confused on where you stand. To me, sneaking doesn't necessarily mean tip-toeing from point A to point B, it just means not using a disguise as an all-access pass. And those who want to play more covert should be able to. I think this is where subjectivity comes into play. In Hitman, there's a rating system, which is based off of the premise that you're a silent assassin; leave no witnesses and minimal collateral damage. LEAVE NO WITNESSES. That includes people who have seen your face, regardless of whether you were disguised or not.

My bad I meant "completely sneak through the level" instead of suit only. It's 2:21 AM where Im from and I'm typing on my phone. I brought up the level design issue to show you that the games weren't designed to be played sneakily (as it should be). Remember that Hitman classifies witnesses differently than how they are classified in real life. Witnesses in Hitman means that they saw you do something to alert them. You know this, so I don't know why you brought up this point.


I guess I'm the type of player who gets more immersed in the game and the environment, and I guess you're the type where the immersion ends on the surface, which explains your preference to strafe exclusively on another thread. Difference in preference. If some people want to speed run and run backwards through every mission be my guest.

Explain your reasoning for me being immersed only on the surface...? And you're not cute bringing up the "running backwards through a level". Strafing is mainly used for aiming, in case you didn't know (and you wouldn't since most console games don't have it). And strafe exclusively? Buddy, you didn't have a choice in the first 3 games...and neither in BM where you are forced to use directional movement.



Then why even have a syringe in Contracts? which, btw, did not affect your SA rating if an NPC woke up. At the end of the day, the bodies are found, a homicide is ruled by the authorities, it doesn't take a PhD to figure out that somebody was murdered. So, what does it matter whether your victim wakes up before or after you leave, as long as you weren't caught? What was the point, then, to have a syringe? Please.

In Contracts if the unconscious NPC doesn't have his clothes on, he will alert nearby guards when he wakes up. To my knowledge, this ruins the SA rating (did for me at least). Timed knockout is a stupid idea IMO.



Dude, there are certain situations where that would be impossible, in the context of Hitman. And yes, Silent Assassin does imply keeping a low profile, which in turn would imply not becoming familiar with every one at the target site. You really look at things on the surface.

Again, your brain is hard wired to insult me first without actually stopping and thinking. Witness in Hitman means the NPC sees you do something that raises their suspicion level above the threshold. Don't believe me? Look on a dedicated Hitman website.



It seems there's confusion over what sneaking and social stealth are. Sneaking doesn't mean tip-toeing everywhere, it just means being covert, and social stealth is basically putting on a disguise and doing whatever you want.

I wrote this part of my reply in response to the last part of your post where you said hiding behind cover was fun. It's a pain to have to quote everything on a phone.

AdrianShephard
12th Aug 2014, 07:53
Ok there is a language barrier between us. When you refer to sneaking, I interpret it as ghosting through/not being seen/excessively crouching in an area. I don't think, and Im pretty sure the OP doesnt think, social stealth is just using a disguise and then doing whatever you want. Social stealth just means you hide in plain sight. Not going up to someone's face and dancing around, not doing god knows what in the open, just that you don't get caught if you are seen in, say, a restricted area. That is the fundamental principle behind Hitman: social stealth.

Reread the first post BTW. It'll help clear things up for you.

gkkiller
12th Aug 2014, 11:58
In Contracts if the unconscious NPC doesn't have his clothes on, he will alert nearby guards when he wakes up. To my knowledge, this ruins the SA rating (did for me at least). Timed knockout is a stupid idea IMO.

Having completed Contracts recently, I can confirm that you can still get SA even with one alert - not sure about anything more than that.

AdrianShephard
13th Aug 2014, 01:35
Having completed Contracts recently, I can confirm that you can still get SA even with one alert - not sure about anything more than that.

My game was just being glitchy then. I had another bug where some levels I could only kill 1 non-target to get SA and some levels I could kill 2. Weird bugs plagued Contracts.

kewlak
13th Aug 2014, 15:49
Silent Assassin and Contracts have hidden scoring. And to get Silent Assassin rank you can't achieve more than 3 points.

1 shot = 1 point
1 dead guard = 1,5 point
1 dead innocent = 1,75-2 points.
1 alarm for body found = 1,5 points.
1 alarm for shot = 1 point.
1 close encounter = 1 point.
BUT: if you trigger 2 alarms or get 2 close encounters you can't attain SA rank.

Source of this info is fanmade website from my country. I haven't checked its reliability myself, but it seems to be correct. I don't know what means that range 1,75-2 next to innocent deaths, maybe in some missions killing innocents is more strict than in others (or it doesn't make any difference if it's 1,75 or 2).

AdrianShephard
13th Aug 2014, 16:45
Silent Assassin and Contracts have hidden scoring. And to get Silent Assassin rank you can't achieve more than 3 points.

1 shot = 1 point
1 dead guard = 1,5 point
1 dead innocent = 1,75-2 points.
1 alarm for body found = 1,5 points.
1 alarm for shot = 1 point.
1 close encounter = 1 point.
BUT: if you trigger 2 alarms or get 2 close encounters you can't attain SA rank.

Source of this info is fanmade website from my country. I haven't checked its reliability myself, but it seems to be correct. I don't know what means that range 1,75-2 next to innocent deaths, maybe in some missions killing innocents is more strict than in others (or it doesn't make any difference if it's 1,75 or 2).

On the mission "Traditions of the Trade", I got 3 points and still didn't get SA:

1 NPC strangled in Fuch's room. = 1 point
1 NPC shot in the face in Fuch's room when he came to investigate = 2 points

Those are the only 2 kills apart from the target on that mission, and the mission statistics showed no alerts. Both targets died without using a bullet. I eventually figured out an easy way to get SA...just completed the mission the same way I did in C:47.

kewlak
13th Aug 2014, 17:49
1 NPC strangled in Fuch's room. = 1 point
It's 1,5 points, not 1 :P

AdrianShephard
13th Aug 2014, 19:57
It's 1,5 points, not 1 :P

Damn man. I'm blind. No wonder why I didn't get it.

FootFetish4Life
13th Aug 2014, 23:03
On the mission "Traditions of the Trade", I got 3 points and still didn't get SA:

1 NPC strangled in Fuch's room. = 1 point
1 NPC shot in the face in Fuch's room when he came to investigate = 2 points

Those are the only 2 kills apart from the target on that mission, and the mission statistics showed no alerts. Both targets died without using a bullet. I eventually figured out an easy way to get SA...just completed the mission the same way I did in C:47.

The doorman for Fuch's room, I let him be. Didn't affect my SA rating and I doubt if he even went inside. I didn't know he did that.

kewlak
13th Aug 2014, 23:12
BTW i don't remember him to went inside neither. He must heard you Adrian Shephard.

AdrianShephard
13th Aug 2014, 23:51
BTW i don't remember him to went inside neither. He must heard you Adrian Shephard.

Ha ha no. I dressed as a towel boy and went in the room. I fiber wired the guy at the balcony but then the guy outside the room comes in to kick you out. We just stood there staring at eachother (with a dead body in view). We stood there for about 10 seconds and it was getting awkward so I shot him in the face. :)

FootFetish4Life
14th Aug 2014, 04:13
I did virtually no sneaking in BM and still got SA on all missions.

That being said, I don't mind some sneaking in parts of levels. Just not too much since 47 is incredibly slow while crouching.

Still Hitman, is known for the multiple ways of completing a mission and I wouldn't want to be penalized (by not getting SA) for not sneaking around.

That's just it! Blood Money's disguise system was a joke, we both see eye to eye on that. I'm talking about Contracts and Silent Assassin. There was more sneaking involved. I know how you feel about Hidden Valley, I actually appreciated having to take a different approach, you know, not having the entire game spoon fed to me. I just wish the NPC's weren't masked because out of all the missions, this was the only chapter that had masks and every one blew your disguise.

Also, 47's speed while crouching was remedied in Absolution. He moved much sleeker and quicker. That is my reasoning for including more sneaking. And even in the first 4 games he wasn't that slow. I'm not sure we're on the same page in regards to sneaking. If the coast is clear, run like hell. If there's people afoot, sneak until you get around them, if you're in a restricted area. That's how I play Silent Assassin, Contracts and Blood Money. I never find myself anxious or impatiently waiting.

[UPDATE]
One more thing. You said timed knockout's were stupid. You think the permanent knockout from Blood Money was any better? Just asking. To me, the Untouched aspect from Absolution seemed about right. I'm bringing this up because we're on the topic of sneaking. When the objective is to kill only your target and no collateral damage, it would be silly to expect a Day of the Jackal-type infiltration for every single mission. A Silent Assassin, killing only his mark, leaving no witnesses or collateral damage, the idea somehow implies some type of cat burglar sneaking aspect to it in a mission like, say, the White House or a Mansion operated by the Yakuza. I'm not saying make the game 75% or even 50% sneaking, but there should be a component to some extent, considering IO is promising some pretty big levels. Stuff like ledge walking and avoiding rooms is right up 47's alley. Killing one of the Fuch's brothers in Contracts involved just that, entering through the balcony as opposed to walking in as a bell boy. That's what I meant by sneaking. Doing everything through the disguise is ridiculous. I'm sure that would get stale like anything else.

AdrianShephard
14th Aug 2014, 05:19
That's just it! Blood Money's disguise system was a joke, we both see eye to eye on that. I'm talking about Contracts and Silent Assassin. There was more sneaking involved. I know how you feel about Hidden Valley, I actually appreciated having to take a different approach, you know, not having the entire game spoon fed to me. I just wish the NPC's weren't masked because out of all the missions, this was the only chapter that had masks and every one blew your disguise.

Also, 47's speed while crouching was remedied in Absolution. He moved much sleeker and quicker. That is my reasoning for including more sneaking. And even in the first 4 games he wasn't that slow. I'm not sure we're on the same page in regards to sneaking. If the coast is clear, run like hell. If there's people afoot, sneak until you get around them, if you're in a restricted area. That's how I play Silent Assassin, Contracts and Blood Money. I never find myself anxious or impatiently waiting.

[UPDATE]
One more thing. You said timed knockout's were stupid. You think the permanent knockout from Blood Money was any better? Just asking. To me, the Untouched aspect from Absolution seemed about right. I'm bringing this up because we're on the topic of sneaking. When the objective is to kill only your target and no collateral damage, it would be silly to expect a Day of the Jackal-type infiltration for every single mission. A Silent Assassin, killing only his mark, leaving no witnesses or collateral damage, the idea somehow implies some type of cat burglar sneaking aspect to it in a mission like, say, the White House or a Mansion operated by the Yakuza. I'm not saying make the game 75% or even 50% sneaking, but there should be a component to some extent, considering IO is promising some pretty big levels. Stuff like ledge walking and avoiding rooms is right up 47's alley. Killing one of the Fuch's brothers in Contracts involved just that, entering through the balcony as opposed to walking in as a bell boy. That's what I meant by sneaking. Doing everything through the disguise is ridiculous. I'm sure that would get stale like anything else.

Sure, I'll deal with small sneaking portions, but there should always always be a way to complete a level with SA and not sneak. Here's my biggest problem/worry though: I never like to intentionally make the game harder on myself, so if it turns out that sneaking is easier than using disguises, chances are Im going to play the game like Absolution again. Sneaking in Absolution was so easy because of the movement speed...it was so damn quick. BM had the perfect crouch speed IMO. Also cover based stealth isn't really stealth because you are just exploiting the AI. You've played SC now, and you can see that using cover is a pain because of how clunky it is --- it's almost as if the game discourages you from using it because it's often easier to turn the camera around a wall. That's what I want...stealth that doesn't rely on cover and isn't incredibly easy. I'll gladly welcome that in H6. But, again, if stealth is easier than using disguises, forget it.

As for the knockout time, I find the non-permanent knockout to be frustrating, especially if you use it on a level that you haven't played before because you usually spend a lot of time exploring. I would be down if we could buy a higher quality sedative or something like that to make the knockout extremely long.