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Shaikh
18th Jun 2014, 15:29
Details regarding the next Deus Ex game for PS4, Xbox One and PC have been leaked.

Square Enix has confirmed that it is working on a new Deus Ex game for PS4, Xbox One and PC (http://www.nowgamer.com/news/2102907/nextgen_deus_ex_confirmed_by_eidos.html), but that's about all they've revealed.

However, details regarding Square Enix's next Deus Ex game have now been leaked online.

The phrase Deus Ex: Universe, which Square Enix has described as relating to a trans-media project encompassing console games, mobile titles and graphic novels, amongst other things, was originally the title of the next Deus Ex game according to a source who spoke to PS Trophies (http://www.playstationtrophies.org/news/news-13493-Deus-Ex--Universe-Details-Leak---A-Mass-Effect-Style-Trilogy?.html=&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter).

However, Deus Ex: Universe was allegedly deemed too ambitious, with the concept for that single game now broken down to form the basis of a Deus Ex trilogy.

The anonymous source says that player choices in these games will be carried over in a similar fashion to Bioware's Mass Effect game, but to a greater extent.

A separate source has also told PS Trophies that they have seen promotional material for a game called Deus Ex: Mankind Divided and that the material features Deus Ex: Human Revolution protagonist Adam Jensen and Ben Saxon from mobile title, Deus Ex: The Fall.

It's not clear whether Deus Ex: Mankind Divided will be the first entry in the new Deus Ex trilogy for PS4, Xbox One and PC, or whether the title is another mobile Deus Ex game.

Source (http://www.nowgamer.com/news/2440937/deus_ex_universe_details_leaked.html)
Source 2 (http://www.playstationtrophies.org/news/news-13493-Deus-Ex--Universe-Details-Leak---A-Mass-Effect-Style-Trilogy?.html=&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

AdrianShephard
18th Jun 2014, 15:40
I honestly hope this "Mankind Divided" is a mobile game. I really don't want Jensen to be the protagonist again...

Not sure how I feel about the "trilogy" Mass Effect thing.

zwanzig_zwoelf
18th Jun 2014, 16:28
bro i hope theyll copy more mechanics from mass effect like romance scenes and more cinematics :)

AdrianShephard
18th Jun 2014, 17:09
Deus Ex: Heart Divided :D

Megan Reed vs Faridah Malik

IDAFT
18th Jun 2014, 17:25
Deus Ex: Heart Divided :D

Megan Reed vs Faridah Malik

I know I shouldn't, but damn, Megan! She is hot, even though she is a she devil!

Shralla
18th Jun 2014, 17:31
Please no. Stories having impact on one another is fine, except that it heavily suggests that they'll be maintaining a single protagonist for all these games, which means kiss goodbye to any chance we had of getting a female main character for a Deus Ex game.

By the time Mass Effect (and Dragon Age) were done with their trilogies, they were barely RPGs anymore. =/

CyberP
18th Jun 2014, 17:50
It will be just as bland as Bioware's games if they take this route, and no amount of colour pallets will change this.
If it's true it's cool they are going for deep, continuous choice and consequence but I don't see it working out favourably at all.

AdrianShephard
18th Jun 2014, 17:57
Please no. Stories having impact on one another is fine, except that it heavily suggests that they'll be maintaining a single protagonist for all these games, which means kiss goodbye to any chance we had of getting a female main character for a Deus Ex game.
EXACTLY!!!!!!

I want different protagonists (although I wouldn't mind if we got to play as Paul Denton before JC came on the force). About the gender thing...I think it would be better if EM went the Invisible War route and let us choose our sex if indeed they want a female main character. I strongly believe that immersion has a lot to do your character and backstory. If I had a female lead, I wouldn't be that immersed because I'm a guy and can't connect as well. Call me sexist or whatever, but I guarantee you I'm not the only person that feels this way.

I have a feeling that Deus Ex is slowly becoming a full blown RPG rather than incorporating RPG elements...

Shralla
18th Jun 2014, 18:34
Giving a gender choice involves either writing most of the dialog in the entire game over again, from player character to NPC, to reflect the choice, or going the Bioware route and pretending that men and women have gender neutral interactions 90% of the time. The first one would be an amazing move, an epic and revolutionary step for the gaming industry, but would require a substantial amount of extra resources, which is why companies always go for the second option, which ultimately renders the choice meaningless.

CyberP
18th Jun 2014, 18:37
Giving a gender choice involves either writing most of the dialog in the entire game over again, from player character to NPC, to reflect the choice, or going the Bioware route and pretending that men and women have gender neutral interactions 90% of the time. The first one would be an amazing move, an epic and revolutionary step for the gaming industry, but would require an substantial amount of extra resources, which is why companies always go for the second option, which ultimately renders the choice meaningless.

:thumb:

Don't forget having it all voiced also.

Stick with one character, and one game (for the time being). Don't bite off more than you can chew.
Choice is good, but there is only so much a dev team with deadlines and milestones can do.

Also, Adam Jensen was half the face of DX:HR (the other half being the damn overwhelming gold), a well-defined (ish) character. Having another one to choose would be like splitting him in half. Something would suffer for the sake of this not particularly important choice anyway.

IDAFT
18th Jun 2014, 18:39
bro i hope theyll copy more mechanics from mass effect like romance scenes and more cinematics :)

The romance stuff would be good, picking a relationship, and seeing what consequences it can have on the storyline, now that would be cool!




I have a feeling that Deus Ex is slowly becoming a full blown RPG rather than incorporating RPG elements...

I hope not, I hope they concentrate on the real time side of things! A bit of mild customisation won't hurt, clothing etc.

Shralla
18th Jun 2014, 19:01
:thumb:

Don't forget having it all voiced also.

Stick with one character, and one game (for the time being). Don't bite off more than you can chew.
Choice is good, but there is only so much a dev team with deadlines and milestones can do.

Adam Jensen was half the face of DX:HR (the other half being the damn overwhelming gold), a well-defined (ish) character. Having another one to choose would be like splitting him in half.

Honestly I just want a Deus Ex game with a solitary female protagonist. Games are never going to be taken seriously as art as long as female playable characters are either pointless choices, or relegated to games with middling story involvement. Deus Ex is exactly the kind of game for which to write a compelling and deep female character.

CyberP
18th Jun 2014, 19:31
Honestly I just want a Deus Ex game with a solitary female protagonist. Games are never going to be taken seriously as art as long as female playable characters are either pointless choices, or relegated to games with middling story involvement.

If your making games to convince ridiculously ignorant non-gamers then I'm not sure I want to hear about your game.
The protagonist's gender should be chosen with consideration of the proposed concepts of the game, not to please feminists or what have you.

That said, I wouldn't mind a female protagonist in DX.

Shralla
18th Jun 2014, 19:33
It's not about impressing anybody. It's about being relevant.

AdrianShephard
18th Jun 2014, 19:38
Honestly I just want a Deus Ex game with a solitary female protagonist. Games are never going to be taken seriously as art as long as female playable characters are either pointless choices, or relegated to games with middling story involvement. Deus Ex is exactly the kind of game for which to write a compelling and deep female character.

The problem for developers is that they know most of the gamer base is male and a female lead might not sit well with some male gamers. It's sort of a circular problem because a female protagonist might (I would think) attract more female gamers.

I could be totally wrong as I'm starting to feel that I am talking out of my ass.

CyberP
18th Jun 2014, 19:38
Gaming is relevant and will be more so over time naturally.


The problem for developers is that they know most of the gamer base is male and a female lead might not sit well with some male gamers. It's sort of a circular problem because a female protagonist might (I would think) attract more female gamers.

I could be totally wrong as I'm starting to feel that I am talking out of my ass.

Sounds logical, but design decisions really shouldn't be based on making the most money either, ideally.
Deus Ex wasn't made this way, and that's why it's ******* great.

When I made my mod, I didn't think "oh I'll do this to attract more females, and I'll do this to go easy on those with reading problems" or whatever, I simply made decisions which would result in what I thought would be a better game for those who love games. Kind of like how the best of games used to made, ya know?
Uncompromising. Dark Souls is the only modern AAA where clearly there was no compromise at all.

AdrianShephard
18th Jun 2014, 19:48
Gaming is relevant and will be more so over time naturally.

Gaming is incredibly relevant but isn't brought up in the media. We had a long discussion with one of my physics professors (who also happened to be ex-military) about how much video game technology influenced military advancements. Stuff like motion control, imaging capabilities, and flying simulators found in video games have played an extremely pivotal role for the military technological improvements.



Sounds logical, but design decisions really shouldn't be based on making the most money either, ideally.


Square-Enix is hurting financially so I would assume they are pushing for maximum profit; especially since HR was a huge success.

CyberP
18th Jun 2014, 20:34
Square-Enix is hurting financially so I would assume they are pushing for maximum profit; especially since HR was a huge success.

They are, because their model was "we'll make accessible/nannying games for increased profit, like everybody else", but that clearly didn't go quite as planned. They recently announced reform and a focus on good games, but we'll see.


Gaming is incredibly relevant but isn't brought up in the media

Murdoch's empire? Recently games are often mentioned.

ic4ruski3
18th Jun 2014, 21:04
As long as the dev team from HR stays on, square's greediness shouldn't affect the next game in the series' quality. Also you need to remember that the next games will be developed for more capable consoles - which directly effect the pc experience (hr seems to have been made for console, not pc) -that can give the dev team more freedom on a larger scale. Meaning the whole of Detroit or Hengsha could be explored in a non linear elder-scrolls- like game if you get the idea.

CyberP
18th Jun 2014, 21:24
No and no.

"Elder Scrolls style game"

Are you aware that since Morrowind the Elder Scrolls games have been multiplatform? Those huge open worlds? Now tell me, what held back the level design of HR? I'll tell you: the designers themselves did.
Even if consoles had major problems all you have to do is add an additional loading screen here and there that is not present on PC. Or more zoning or whatever the modern lingo is. Or just lower the visual complexity of the console versions, but leave the PC intact.
Hell, Hengsha was rather large with few loading screens, perhaps even the largest map in DX history. Why are all missions rather linear, yet all hubs very large and open? There's plenty AI in the hubs also which are resource intensive, yet consoles handled it. What about Dishonored? Fallout: New Vegas? GTA or any number of open world games?
Consoles didn't hold HR back by any significant means, the people involved with it's creation did. Same story with Invisible War for the most part.

WildcatPhoenix
18th Jun 2014, 21:36
Honestly I just want a Deus Ex game with a solitary female protagonist. Games are never going to be taken seriously as art as long as female playable characters are either pointless choices, or relegated to games with middling story involvement. Deus Ex is exactly the kind of game for which to write a compelling and deep female character.

The thing is, cyberpunk as a literary genre is teeming with female characters (look at Molly Millions in Neuromancer, or Y.T. in Snow Crash). Square Enix even has a successful, iconic franchise character in its own stable in Lara Croft, who they have started to develop as less of a sex symbol and more of an actual character (they've got a long way to go here, but you can't make the argument that they haven't at least tried).

There is absolutely no reason why a deep, multidimensional female protagonist couldn't work in the world of Deus Ex.

CyberP
18th Jun 2014, 22:23
If Eidos Montreal/Square-Enix are making design decisions based on maximized profits again like they did with HR, and Thief, and all the other SE-published games, they can just stop what they are doing right now and go make a ******* Tetris clone for mobiles, as it is the highest selling game of all time. Or a clone of any of these games: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games

zwanzig_zwoelf
18th Jun 2014, 23:22
bro let eidos milk money from my pockets i really want more games just let them milk as much as they want ill even buy a mario clone from them :)

CyberP
18th Jun 2014, 23:47
bro let eidos milk money from my pockets i really want more games just let them milk as much as they want ill even buy a mario clone from them :)

Drop the act and join me in telling them how disappointed we are in them.

AdrianShephard
19th Jun 2014, 00:06
Now tell me, what held back the level design of HR? I'll tell you: the designers themselves did.
Spot on.



Even if consoles had major problems all you have to do is add an additional loading screen here and there that is not present on PC.

The frequent loading screens in the same hub area really ruined it for me in Thief (console version). Don't know about others, but I would rather have a smaller load-free area than a large load-ridden area. Especially if the load times are as long as HR's.

I've used my daily allowance of the word 'load'.

CyberP
19th Jun 2014, 00:17
The frequent loading screens in the same hub area really ruined it for me in Thief (console version). Don't know about others, but I would rather have a smaller load-free area than a large load-ridden area. Especially if the load times are as long as HR's..

Eh, I wouldn't mind. 1 more loading screen exclusive to the consoles aint gonna hurt. There weren't too many in HR at all. I'd prefer they just make large levels for the PC and where/if necessary they strip minor performance-intensive content for the console versions only.
The console versions should suffer but it would be the most insignificant of suffering for the most part. It's not like HR had amazing graphics anyhow, but IC4Ruski was right, they developed for the console versions primarily. Sigh.

Was there even any dynamic lighting in HR at all? I don't think there was...

Meh, I don't care too much about the graphics. Deus Ex shined in gameplay (including level design) & story, and the consoles are capable of delivering in that regard.

zwanzig_zwoelf
19th Jun 2014, 01:56
Drop the act and join me in telling them how disappointed we are in them.

bro yeah ok i am disappointed only like 3 games over the course of 3 years who do they think they are i wish there were like 10 games or something :)

ic4ruski3
19th Jun 2014, 16:00
"Elder Scrolls style game"

Are you aware that since Morrowind the Elder Scrolls games have been multiplatform? Those huge open worlds? Now tell me, what held back the level design of HR? I'll tell you: the designers themselves did.
Hell, Hengsha was rather large with few loading screens, perhaps even the largest map in DX history. Why are all missions rather linear, yet all hubs very large and open? There's plenty AI in the hubs also which are resource intensive, yet consoles handled it. What about Dishonored? Fallout: New Vegas? GTA or any number of open world games?

So what separates the eidos dev team from rockstar and Bethesda?
How motivated/lazy they are?
:scratch:

AdrianShephard
19th Jun 2014, 16:38
So what separates the eidos dev team from rockstar and Bethesda?
How motivated/lazy they are?
:scratch:

I don't think it's motivation. It's a combination of the creativity and experience of the designers, the engine the dev team chose to work with, and just the overall direction and feel the team wanted in the game. Perhaps they thought smaller rich environments are better than large empty areas.

CyberP
19th Jun 2014, 17:13
I don't think it's motivation. It's a combination of the creativity and experience of the designers, the engine the dev team chose to work with, and just the overall direction and feel the team wanted in the game

Spot on. Probably.


Perhaps they thought smaller rich environments are better than large empty areas.

Yes, they did go absolutely mad with the minor details, at the cost of the majority of it being non-interactive.
Still, the missions didn't have to be so linear and generic (break wall, crawl through copy paste vent or go full frontal etc), if they could do the hubs as large, detailed and NPC-filled as they did, they could have surely done more for the missions.

WildcatPhoenix
19th Jun 2014, 17:26
Yes, they did go absolutely mad with the minor details, at the cost of the majority of it being non-interactive.

This is something I hope to see improved upon with next-gen hardware. My eyes started to glaze over while playing DXHR because the clutter, while pretty, was essentially meaningless. All of that detail was effectively nothing more than static textures. I'm convinced this was a major factor in implementing the annoying "highlighting" feature which bothered so many of us...you simply had to have it just to know what was interactive and what wasn't.



Still, the missions didn't have to be so linear and generic (break wall, crawl through copy paste vent or go full frontal etc), if they could do the hubs as large, detailed and NPC-filled as they did, they could have surely done more for the missions.

This, however, is a function of design, and absolutely must be improved through a combination of leadership, creativity, and talent. Quite frankly, I thought the level design in DXHR was lazy in many places. I don't want to see this repeated in DX4.

Shaikh
19th Jun 2014, 17:28
I approve of a female protagonist DX game. :thumb:


Deus Ex: Heart Divided :D

Megan Reed vs Faridah Malik
Oh yes please. :D

CyberP
19th Jun 2014, 17:42
Oh yes please. :D

http://memecrunch.com/image/50db3a0eafa96f45a0000077.jpg?w=400

Lady_Of_The_Vine
19th Jun 2014, 19:22
Its the strength of character that matters, not the gender.

Shralla
20th Jun 2014, 01:40
Its the strength of character that matters, not the gender.

Yes, but perspective is also a supremely important aspect of storytelling, and women (in general) have a different perspective on many things than men (in general) do. Even if a man and a woman agree on a purpose or cause the conclusion won't necessarily have been reached in the same way, simply due to the biological differences in the way our brains and body chemicals (hormones, etc) function.

Naturally individualism is not a factor to be dismissed. As you said, it's the strength of the character that matters and any strong character needs to have been shaped and continue to be shaped by the things that have happened to them. Even then, though, men and women have entirely different experiences while going through life just due to how other people treat them. Even if they shared backgrounds with identical encounters, they would have been viewed through different lenses.

The difference in perspective needs to be shared and celebrated for the benefit of society. Men and women (and whites and blacks and gays and straights etc etc) need to all be able to view the world through each other's eyes, and understand where the communication divide is coming from. Video games are by far the best medium for putting yourself in somebody else's shoes, and it is a genuine issue when in 2014 the industry as a whole has a 10% representation of ~50% of the population.

There are so many discussions and debates to be had on this subject, I know. But this is why the gender thing (and the race thing, etc etc) is actually important, and it has nothing to do with increasing profits or appealing to a broader audience.

-Neon-
20th Jun 2014, 01:46
tl;dr white males are a minority in the world, so there's literally no good reason that they're the majority of video game protagonists

AdrianShephard
20th Jun 2014, 03:16
I totally understand what you're trying to get at, but I must point out a few things:



The difference in perspective needs to be shared and celebrated for the benefit of society. Men and women (and whites and blacks and gays and straights etc etc) need to all be able to view the world through each other's eyes, and understand where the communication divide is coming from.

Sure. But unless the Eidos-Montreal has some female writers, then I don't think we'll get this "perspective" you are talking about. The potential for portraying a female lead as cliche or stereotypical is very high when you have a bunch of men creating her. As a guy, I don't know what exactly is going on in a woman's brain about a particular situation...I may have some ideas based on personal experience and from the general media but nothing exact. Could be different for other guys but I doubt it. I would rather have a realistic man than an unrealistic woman.



Video games are by far the best medium for putting yourself in somebody else's shoes, and it is a genuine issue when in 2014 the industry as a whole has a 10% representation of ~50% of the population.

Not sure where you are getting your numbers. If you are referring to white males, I'm pretty sure they are more than just 10% of the total population...in fact I'm almost certain as 'White' can apply to Europeans, North Africans, and self-identified Hispanics/Latinos. The other problem is that the gaming audience is not 10% white-male, it's much much higher than that. Also, I honestly do not think that video games are the "best medium for putting yourself in somebody else's shoes"; most games today do not focus on the moral implications of actions or the emotional struggles of a particular character. I say this because "putting yourself in someone else's shoes" is not the first thing that comes to a consumer's mind when they play, say, Call of Duty or GTA. I also think that a very great portion of the gaming audience is not mature enough to understand different perspectives different genders bring to the table.

Edit: The moral implication part was my lazy way of trying to say that games don't offer many opportunities to really connect with the lead character. Since the OP said "video game industry", I'm taking all games into perspective, not just RPGs.


it has nothing to do with increasing profits or appealing to a broader audience.

It has everything to do with money. AAA video games are incredibly expensive to make and the development team, let alone the publisher, will not take a risk by alienating the majority of consumers to make a social point. Indie games, I predict, will start to explore more varied backgrounds/ethnicity of lead characters, etc. but definitely not AAA games anytime soon.


tl;dr white males are a minority in the world, so there's literally no good reason that they're the majority of video game protagonists

The biggest and best (even though I do not 100% agree) reason is that the majority of video game consumers are white males.

-Neon-
20th Jun 2014, 03:29
The biggest and best (even though I do not 100% agree) reason is that the majority of video game consumers are white males.

Because the video game industry keeps pandering to white males. Just like how they might have difficulty "identifying" to non-white male characters, non-white male people find it hard to identify to white-male characters, which is why they're supposedly not a large part of the consumer base.

AdrianShephard
20th Jun 2014, 04:08
Because the video game industry keeps pandering to white males. Just like how they might have difficulty "identifying" to non-white male characters, non-white male people find it hard to identify to white-male characters, which is why they're supposedly not a large part of the consumer base.

Rule #1 when you have a business is identifying your consumer base. You can't blame big corporations for knowing their audience. If you were a CEO of a big publisher, you would do the same.

Personally, I believe hormonal differences between males and females drive one group more towards violent video games and the other group to whatever girls like to do (I know but I won't say here...:)) Whether that's true or not is up for debate. You can see online (like the ESRB website) statistics of consoles that males and females play on. Females overwhelmingly play on the Wii (which often has non-violent family friendly games) rather than the more 'hardcore' Xbox or Playstation.

Deep down, I don't think that a female protagonist will make a large impact in the amount of female gamers there are.

EricaLeeV
20th Jun 2014, 04:22
Sure. But unless the Eidos-Montreal has some female writers, then I don't think we'll get this "perspective" you are talking about. The potential for portraying a female lead as cliche or stereotypical is very high when you have a bunch of men creating her. As a guy, I don't know what exactly is going on in a woman's brain about a particular situation...I may have some ideas based on personal experience and from the general media but nothing exact. Could be different for other guys but I doubt it. I would rather have a realistic man than an unrealistic woman.

I suppose you aren't aware then that the lead writer of DXHR, was, in fact, a woman (Mary DeMarle). I didn't think the writing of females was that great in said installment (but it wasn't terrible).


Since you said earlier that you didn't think you could play as a female in a game, let me share with you a little something...we're really not that different from men. In most situations that video game protagonists are placed in, gender would not matter in the slightest.

https://i.imgur.com/nu2Mipb.jpg

More women in the industry in general would be awesome but it's certainly not necessary for good writing.

Q1qndga6SNU


...in fact I'm almost certain as 'White' can apply to Europeans, North Africans, and self-identified Hispanics/Latinos. .

Forms and such were made that way...like, 20 years ago (at least in the US) but nowadays Hispanic is a separate and growing class away from that. In fact, when I fill out that kind of information I have to put Hispanic- and then they ask for another race (like Native American, or what have you) because there are so many kinds of Hispanics alone.

Shralla
20th Jun 2014, 04:52
Sure. But unless the Eidos-Montreal has some female writers, then I don't think we'll get this "perspective" you are talking about.

The lead writer on Human Revolution was a woman. :| Even having a male main character, Human Revolution had a more comprehensive look at the world than most games. There was a distinct feminine edge to the story.


The potential for portraying a female lead as cliche or stereotypical is very high when you have a bunch of men creating her.

Which is why the majority of female characters in video games are cliche or stereotypical. That's an entirely different debate, regarding sexism and glass ceilings in the video game industry. I don't particularly want to get into that.


I would rather have a realistic man than an unrealistic woman.

I absolutely agree. My point is that ultimately we should all rather that we have realistic representation of everybody.


Not sure where you are getting your numbers. If you are referring to white males, I'm pretty sure they are more than just 10% of the total population

I'm saying that women (~50% of the population) represent roughly 10% of the lead characters in video games, if not less. Certainly less if you count believable and sympathetic characters.


Also, I honestly do not think that video games are the "best medium for putting yourself in somebody else's shoes"; most games today do not focus on the moral implications of actions or the emotional struggles of a particular character. I say this because "putting yourself in someone else's shoes" is not the first thing that comes to a consumer's mind when they play, say, Call of Duty or GTA.

What is on the consumer's mind is irrelevant to the actual merits of the medium in question. No other medium truly places you in another world and allows you to interact with it through somebody else's eyes. What "most games" are doing isn't the point, what the people want from Call of Duty or GTA isn't the point (though GTA V giving you three protagonist provided variable perspective on a single world, a brilliant storytelling maneuver). The fact that video games can place you inside a world that does not exist as a character who does not exist and allow you to experience the world through that character's eyes is the point.


I also think that a very great portion of the gaming audience is not mature enough to understand different perspectives different genders bring to the table.

Which doesn't mean that they shouldn't make games that challenge that lack of understanding. That is precisely why games like that should be made. That is exactly why art is made at all, to challenge people to think and understand what they yet do not.


It has everything to do with money. AAA video games are incredibly expensive to make and the development team, let alone the publisher, will not take a risk by alienating the majority of consumers to make a social point.

The fact that a female main character inherently has to make a "social point" in your eyes is exactly the problem. You say that men won't want to play video games with a female main character, and that there aren't enough women who play "AAA" games to justify the inclusion of women as main characters... So by your same personal logic, why would they want to play in the first place if there are so few female main characters to relate to? Maybe they just aren't playing because the overwhelmingly masculine perspective on everything is, well, overwhelming.


Indie games, I predict, will start to explore more varied backgrounds/ethnicity of lead characters, etc. but definitely not AAA games anytime soon.

Far Cry 4's main character is the equivalent of Nepalese, which they did specifically in response to public outcry regarding the main character of Far Cry 3 being a white dude. Indie games are already doing a spectacular job


The biggest and best (even though I do not 100% agree) reason is that the majority of video game consumers are white males.

Yes, money and business. But as any savvy businessman will tell you, no risk no reward. Playing it safe will work for a time, but ultimately it is never enough. The biggest successes are bred off of new ideas, or old ideas simply put forth with never before seen gusto.

EDIT: I would play a video game written by George RR Martin. Now he writes some believable characters, both male and female. That's why Game of Thrones is so massively popular across so many boundaries.

AdrianShephard
20th Jun 2014, 05:02
I suppose you aren't aware then that the lead writer of DXHR, was, in fact, a woman (Mary DeMarle).

I didn't know that. I started off my reply talking about Eidos-Montreal but then I sort of transitioned to all development teams/publishers.


Since you said earlier that you didn't think you could play as a female in a game, let me share with you a little something...we're really not that different from men.

It's not that I can't play as a women because they are some fundamentally different beings. It's human nature...you go where you feel most comfortable and where you can connect more. For me at least, that means a man character. It's not like I won't play a game because there is a female lead, not at all. But if I was given the choice of creating a female/male character in a game where the dialogue is adjusted for this choice, I would choose a man. It's like when I play GTA 5...I choose to be Michael most of the time instead of Franklin or Trevor because I have more in common with him. It's not that I'm racist and refuse to be Franklin because he is black or Trevor because he is a drug-addicted, "white-trash", psychopath, but because I can connect with Michael the most. Maybe GTA isn't the best example though...



More women in the industry in general would be awesome but it's certainly not necessary for good writing.

My point was that if we have a female protagonist I want a female writer. I hope I didn't imply that female writers are incapable/bad.



Forms and such were made that way...like, 20 years ago (at least in the US) but nowadays Hispanic is a separate and growing class away from that. In fact, when I fill out that kind of information I have to put Hispanic- and then they ask for another race (like Native American, or what have you) because there are so many kinds of Hispanics alone.

That's sort of the reason why I put the qualifier "self-identifying". Maybe a Hispanic doesn't see himself/herself as being Hispanic...or other cases like that.

EricaLeeV
20th Jun 2014, 05:14
It's not that I can't play as a women because they are some fundamentally different beings. It's human nature...you go where you feel most comfortable and where you can connect more. For me at least, that means a man character. It's not like I won't play a game because there is a female lead, not at all. But if I was given the choice of creating a female/male character in a game where the dialogue is adjusted for this choice, I would choose a man. It's like when I play GTA 5...I choose to be Michael most of the time instead of Franklin or Trevor because I have more in common with him. It's not that I'm racist and refuse to be Franklin because he is black or Trevor because he is a drug-addicted, "white-trash", psychopath, but because I can connect with Michael the most. Maybe GTA isn't the best example though...

You most likely play shooters, like all of us do, and you are aware that Michael is a former thief (maybe even a murderer) depending on how you play him. So, you can relate to scum of the earth...but a woman is going too far?



...Okay.


My point was that if we have a female protagonist I want a female writer. I hope I didn't imply that female writers are incapable/bad.

I simply stated, thanks to the help of George R.R. Martin there, that female characters are people. Men are people. When it comes to being a main character dealing with usually outrageous circumstances, gender does not matter most of the time. You don't need a female to write a good female character. Simple as that.




That's sort of the reason why I put the qualifier "self-identifying". Maybe a Hispanic doesn't see himself/herself as being Hispanic...or other cases like that.

Now that's just going into specifics of nonsense just to make a point. Any person of any race doesn't have to identify themselves with an arbitrary name given because of one's birthplace or color of skin.

-Neon-
20th Jun 2014, 05:32
I don't get what it is that keeps guys so attached to the idea of playing as a male character? I played Deus Ex Human Revolution, and outside of the one scene with Zhao and Pritchards comment at the beginning, there's not really anything that made me think "this sure would be weird if said by a female character."

I mean, you can play as a guy living 20+ years in the future, with a degree in Criminal Justice, who's got a voice deeper than yours, who has mechanical limbs, but you can't imagine yourself playing as a woman?

AdrianShephard
20th Jun 2014, 05:35
Which is why the majority of female characters in video games are cliche or stereotypical. That's an entirely different debate, regarding sexism and glass ceilings in the video game industry.

I brought it up because it greatly impacts the experience of playing as a female character.



I'm saying that women (~50% of the population) represent roughly 10% of the lead characters in video games, if not less. Certainly less if you count believable and sympathetic characters.


I'm sorry I thought you were referring to race.



What is on the consumer's mind is irrelevant to the actual merits of the medium in question.

Sure. The inherent qualities of video games do make it a great medium. But what is on the consumer's mind does in fact matter because it is what evolves and dictates how that medium will be used.



The fact that a female main character inherently has to make a "social point" in your eyes is exactly the problem.


It absolutely is a social point! You said it yourself "Which doesn't mean that they shouldn't make games that challenge that lack of understanding. That is precisely why games like that should be made." What...is the word "point" too taboo? The "point" can be subtle like quietly breaking the norm of a man lead or stereotypical female character. If Rockstar puts a female playable character in their next GTA, that's a social point because they are seen as a misogynistic developer by many.



You say that men won't want to play video games with a female main character, and that there aren't enough women who play "AAA" games to justify the inclusion of women as main characters...

...Indie games are already doing a spectacular job

I didn't say that. I said men "might" not play games with a female main character. I also didn't say there aren't enough women who play AAA games. I used AAA games as an example of high development costs and the typically less risky behavior publishers have with them. As you said, indie games are doing well on this issue because they are less risky financially. Don't put words in my mouth.



So by your same personal logic, why would they want to play in the first place if there are so few female main characters to relate to? Maybe they just aren't playing because the overwhelmingly masculine perspective on everything is, well, overwhelming.

...yes...as I said before, it's a circular problem.



Yes, money and business. But as any savvy businessman will tell you, no risk no reward.

I don't think a savvy businessman would consider this a risk/reward situation.

You most likely play shooters, like all of us do, and you are aware that Michael is a former thief (maybe even a murderer) depending on how you play him. So, you can relate to scum of the earth...but a woman is going too far?

-sigh- Immersive sims aren't the same as a third person blow everything up in your face type game. And no, if there was a 4th woman character who was 21 years old, smart, likes to play video games, exercises a lot, and doesn't like to have her own logic poorly used against her, I would definitely choose her. But guess what? There isn't...



Now that's just going into specifics of nonsense just to make a point.

No, it's not. I know many 'Hispanics' that claim they are white with Hispanic origin. More so than any other ethnicity.


I don't get what it is that keeps guys so attached to the idea of playing as a male character?

It's not that I'm "so attached". The sheer number of posts I'm making might make it seem that way but I'm defending myself from false accusations/people putting words in my mouth as these conversations tend to become. One side is simply pointing out why developers choose to make male-oriented games and the other side is overly passionate, trying to fabricate alternate scenario's and committing all the fallacies under the sun. The moment some poster brought up the "women are people to" argument, I knew where this was going. It always happens....



I mean, you can play as a guy living 20+ years in the future, with a degree in Criminal Justice, who's got a voice deeper than yours, who has mechanical limbs, but you can't imagine yourself playing as a woman?

I didn't connect with Jensen...not at all. To me, he was a poorly created character.

EricaLeeV
20th Jun 2014, 06:17
-sigh- Immersive sims aren't the same as a third person blow everything up in your face type game. And no, if there was a 4th woman character who was 21 years old, smart, likes to play video games, exercises a lot, and doesn't like to have her own logic poorly used against her, I would definitely choose her. But guess what? There isn't...

Please do not patronize video game genres and their distinction to me. I am well aware.

Not to mention, you, are the individual who brought up GTAV as an example of why you relate to people or don't in the first place. If you wanted to keep the concept in Immersive Sims then you should have brought up an example of one.


No, it's not. I know many 'Hispanics' that claim they are white with Hispanic origin. More so than any other ethnicity.

You know "many" people that are Hispanic, but claim themselves white, huh?

If you remember, you originally brought up that White=Hispanic thing to make a point that Hispanics might be included in the estimate for White gamers. I have never met someone who would not claim to be Hispanic if they were so asked (on say, a survey about games) in my life. And I know A LOT of Hispanics; which is obvious seeing as I live in Texas. To say, in this day and age, data would be so skewed to one race because "many" people that are Hispanic (a demographic which can include Central Americans, South Americans, Islanders, and even Spanish if they feel so inclined) say they are white is an unbelievably enormous stretch for me.

AdrianShephard
20th Jun 2014, 06:29
Please do not patronize video game genres and their distinction to me. I am well aware.

Not to mention, you, are the individual who brought up GTAV as an example of why you relate to people or don't in the first place. If you wanted to keep the concept in Immersive Sims then you should have brought up an example of one.

And you are the one who brought up a comparison to a woman character and Michael when there is clearly no female playable character in GTA 5 singleplayer. I'm sorry if you felt offended but I was expecting you to see the point of why I brought up GTA in the first place. It was, I admit, not the best example but I was trying to relay that people choose the character that most closely fits them when given the choice (go to Rockstar forums and see why people choose who they play with). Instead, you thought it was a prime opportunity to attack a straw man and try to make me look like a bigot by "being able to connect with a murderer but not a woman". The world is a bit more complicated than A=B and B=C so A=C.



You know "many" people that are Hispanic, but claim themselves white, huh?

...and even Spanish if they feel so inclined)

I was mostly talking about people from Spain. There are a couple families here in Boston that I know that do, in fact, not consider themselves full blown Hispanics for whatever reasons. And the quotes around "Hispanic" that you willfully or accidentally left out in my previous post was meant to convey that I was referring to friends I know as "Hispanics" rather than just calling them "people" since they are technically Hispanic. Enough on this topic. You don't know who I know and the same goes with me.

EricaLeeV
20th Jun 2014, 06:36
And you are the one who brought up a comparison to a woman character and Michael when there is clearly no female playable character in GTA 5 singleplayer. I'm sorry if you felt offended but I was expecting you to see the point of why I brought up GTA in the first place. It was, I admit, not the best example but I was trying to relay that people choose the character that most closely fits them when given the choice (go to Rockstar forums and see why people choose who they play with). Instead, you thought it was a prime opportunity to attack a straw man and try to make me look like a bigot by "being able to connect with a murderer but not a woman". The world is a bit more complicated than A=B and B=C so A=C.

Straw man indeed. In these "immersive sims" I wonder what your character is often doing to progress? I can't really think of one that doesn't involve violence in some way (unless you are talking tank simulators or what have you).

AdrianShephard
20th Jun 2014, 06:57
Straw man indeed. In these "immersive sims" I wonder what your character is often doing to progress? I can't really think of one that doesn't involve violence in some way (unless you are talking tank simulators or what have you).

The non-violent pacifist way progress of course which is part of the appeal of DX.

Assuming I didn't say that though:
How do you assume a female lead would progress? As you said, you can't think of one that doesn't involve violence...so that one inappropriate assumption you made about me connecting with a murderer and not a female should really be me connecting with male murderer and not a female murderer.

Don't take that last part as being completely serious.

EricaLeeV
20th Jun 2014, 07:15
The non-violent pacifist way progress of course which is part of the appeal of DX.

And Deus Ex is the only immersive sim you play? Well, in that case good on you for getting around one of the industry's greatest bad habits (violence in video games) ...at least in the realm of immersive sims I guess.



I want different protagonists (although I wouldn't mind if we got to play as Paul Denton before JC came on the force). About the gender thing...I think it would be better if EM went the Invisible War route and let us choose our sex if indeed they want a female main character. I strongly believe that immersion has a lot to do your character and backstory. If I had a female lead, I wouldn't be that immersed because I'm a guy and can't connect as well. Call me sexist or whatever, but I guarantee you I'm not the only person that feels this way.


You'll have to forgive me in that I assumed you were against female leads in general. Especially if you expressed disinterest in one for a game series with a history of having a linear storyline and protagonist with a core personality that the player does not affect in entirety.



On a side note, I have said it before but I would also really love Paul as a lead for a Deus Ex game as I feel he is an interesting character and would enjoy learning more about him. Although I have a lingering fear that I should be weary of such a game, because of past experiences of when a wish like that came true.

Some of us wanted to know the backstory of Darth Vader...and look how that turned out.

AdrianShephard
20th Jun 2014, 07:28
And Deus Ex is the only immersive sim you play? Well, in that case good on you for getting around one of the industries greatest bad habits (violence in video games) ...at least in the realm of immersive sims I guess.

Isn't that one of main tenets of immersive sims? The free and open design to complete your objective the way you want to?



You'll have to forgive me in that I assumed you were against female leads in general. Especially if you expressed disinterest in one for a game series with a history of having a linear storyline and protagonist with a core personality that the player does not affect in entirety.

As I've said before, and I see you've taken the liberty of digging up an old post, I believe gender has a lot to do with how immersed you are within a game, regardless if it is linear or not. What immerses me does not necessarily mean it will immerse you. And herein lies your problem...that I'm some sort of antiwoman progress villian because I can't see myself as immersed with a female than if I played with a male. Like it's illegal to admit that I picture myself in a game as my gender rather than the opposite gender. Go up to anybody on the street and I guarantee you that if you allowed them to create a virtual character, they would choose their own sex.


If Paul came back, I would definitely want Jay Anthony Franke to reprise his role.

EricaLeeV
20th Jun 2014, 12:22
Isn't that one of main tenets of immersive sims? The free and open design to complete your objective the way you want to?

Sure. The ability to do so varies a lot though, and can be (especially in Deus Ex's main broad storyline) very limiting; but I am using a certain definition of Immersive games (http://www.giantbomb.com/immersive-sim/3015-5700/) that may not be in line with yours.



Defining elements

-Immersion in an elaborate and believable game world.
-Simulation: physics and AI are used to create believable behavior in objects and characters which the player can freely interact with, resulting in 'emergent gameplay'.
-First person perspective so as to truly look through the eyes of the protagonist (though not all games adhere to this).
-Game design that allows for multiple paths and/or multiple solutions in every situation.
-A systemic game world that keeps track of the players actions, and can affect the "whole" of the game.
-Usually open-ended/non-linear game design with an emphasis on choice and consequence.
-Full control over the player's character in every situation (though not all games adhere to this).
-A world with consistent rules that the player can interact with.
-Narrative that is not always forced on the player, but instead can be told through exploration and gameplay at that players will.
-No fail states, beyond player death.




As I've said before, and I see you've taken the liberty of digging up an old post, I believe gender has a lot to do with how immersed you are within a game, regardless if it is linear or not. What immerses me does not necessarily mean it will immerse you. And herein lies your problem...that I'm some sort of antiwoman progress villian because I can't see myself as immersed with a female than if I played with a male. Like it's illegal to admit that I picture myself in a game as my gender rather than the opposite gender. Go up to anybody on the street and I guarantee you that if you allowed them to create a virtual character, they would choose their own sex.

If a comment said in the previous page of the thread is seen as an "old post" then I am truly behind in internet time.

It is clear to me that you definitely have a different idea of what an immersive game is played for than me (which is fine, of course). Given the definition and examples in that last link I gave, there is no possible way a person can be expected to "relate" (at least initially) to all those extreme examples of main characters.

To me, the point of Immersive games is to let me see what a character's life or the environment surrounding them is like. The game does not have to adhere to a certain archetype because otherwise I can not relate to it. I go in for the new experience. Indeed, I go into all games for the new experience, but immersive games can achieve this more than most all other kinds of games, in my opinion.

JC Denton is not me, I play the game to see what it's like being JC Denton. And along the way I can control what and how he conquers certain situations; sometimes in extremely contrasting ways just to see what the game does when I make said decision. All attributing to the replayability.

AdrianShephard
20th Jun 2014, 13:06
To me, the point of Immersive games is to let me see what a character's life or the environment surrounding them is like. The game does not have to adhere to a certain archetype because otherwise I can not relate to it. I go in for the new experience. Indeed, I go into all games for the new experience, but immersive games can achieve this more than most all other kinds of games, in my opinion.

JC Denton is not me, I play the game to see what it's like being JC Denton. And along the way I can control what and how he conquers certain situations; sometimes in extremely contrasting ways just to see what the game does when I make said decision. All attributing to the replayability.

Well then this explains a lot. As corny as it sounds, I tend to imagine video game protagonists are myself in the given world; for me, it greatly enhances the experience. When I'm presented with dialogue options in DX, I tend to choose what I would say in real life than what is in character for the lead.

WildcatPhoenix
20th Jun 2014, 18:53
On a side note, I have said it before but I would also really love Paul as a lead for a Deus Ex game as I feel he is an interesting character and would enjoy learning more about him. Although I have a lingering fear that I should be weary of such a game, because of past experiences of when a wish like that came true.

Some of us wanted to know the backstory of Darth Vader...and look how that turned out.

This is the peril of prequels in general. I think one important aspect of DX1's narrative and characterization is that it leaves certain things to the player's imagination. Some of this was deliberate, some of it was accidental (such as references to the Texas front, or the moon, or other parts of the game that ended up being cut). Let's take Paul's character: we hear about something that happened in Hong Kong, something which got him in trouble with the Coalition. We hear references to the Dentons' parents and a lot of hints at a troubled backstory, but it's really left up to us to fill in the blanks.

Or look at Walton Simons. Do you really need to know where he came from, or what his childhood was like, or what happened to his parents, in order for him to be an effective character? No. Part of Simons' appeal is the mysteriousness which surrounds him. A lot of these "origin story" prequel narratives end up doing more harm to their characters (such as the Vader example cited earlier) than good.

On the gender front, I think we need to distinguish between a JC type of protagonist and an Adam Jensen. JC is effectively a blank slate. Spector and co. said they deliberately chose to make JC fairly non-descript in order to let the player project his (or her) own personality on to the character. Aside from a few smart-*** or tough guy remarks, JC maintains a neutral tone of voice throughout the game, and we hardly ever learn anything about his own childhood or backstory. Jensen, on the other hand, has a much more defined background and personality. Like Adrian Shepard said earlier (I think), I didn't really connect with Jensen because he wasn't all that interesting (IMO), but he certainly had a more established personality than JC.

If the developers are aiming for immersion, then they should go for the JC route and allow the player to shape the character to his or her own preferences. Go with a gender neutral name, allow for male or female choices, and let the player decide what gender they wish to play. If they are going for a more defined character (and let's be honest, this is the route that EM/Square is going to go...they would never yield that much control over their franchise characters), then I see no reason why a female protagonist couldn't work? Especially in a cyberpunk setting, which as I've said before, has a long history of very interesting female characters.

I don't act like Adam Jensen. I wouldn't have made the choices Adam makes in those stupid, stupid cutscenes. So if I don't feel like Adam is "me," why does it matter if he's male or female?

EricaLeeV
20th Jun 2014, 19:39
This is the peril of prequels in general. I think one important aspect of DX1's narrative and characterization is that it leaves certain things to the player's imagination. Some of this was deliberate, some of it was accidental (such as references to the Texas front, or the moon, or other parts of the game that ended up being cut). Let's take Paul's character: we hear about something that happened in Hong Kong, something which got him in trouble with the Coalition. We hear references to the Dentons' parents and a lot of hints at a troubled backstory, but it's really left up to us to fill in the blanks.

Or look at Walton Simons. Do you really need to know where he came from, or what his childhood was like, or what happened to his parents, in order for him to be an effective character? No. Part of Simons' appeal is the mysteriousness which surrounds him. A lot of these "origin story" prequel narratives end up doing more harm to their characters (such as the Vader example cited earlier) than good.

All of that is very true, of course.



....but I still can't help but want more. It's just a thing. Probably not a good thing, but it's common when something people enjoy has the potential for expansion.

WildcatPhoenix
20th Jun 2014, 19:49
....but I still can't help but want more. It's just a thing. Probably not a good thing, but it's common when something people enjoy has the potential for expansion.

This is Square Enix we're talking about here. A Denton prequel would probably be nothing but Paul complaining about how "he never asked for [nanoaugmentation]," followed by cutscene after cutscene of our hero pining over his long lost love, Jordan Shea, who quit the Coalition to go tend bar in New York after some Big Misunderstanding™.

EricaLeeV
20th Jun 2014, 19:51
You're not wrong.

Didn't say I wanted this dev team as it were doing such a task but it could be neat if given to the right hands.


And maybe people like me saying we want "more of that last thing" is ruining the industry. Truly I am terrible.

CyberP
20th Jun 2014, 20:51
And maybe people like me saying we want "more of that last thing" is ruining the industry. Truly I am terrible.

No you're not. The games of yesteryear as a whole were more engaging, this is widely agreed upon. But what you could desire is those old concepts expanded upon, like me :) Advancement in the right direction.

AdrianShephard
20th Jun 2014, 22:09
Or look at Walton Simons. Do you really need to know where he came from, or what his childhood was like, or what happened to his parents, in order for him to be an effective character? No. Part of Simons' appeal is the mysteriousness which surrounds him. A lot of these "origin story" prequel narratives end up doing more harm to their characters (such as the Vader example cited earlier) than good.

On the gender front, I think we need to distinguish between a JC type of protagonist and an Adam Jensen. JC is effectively a blank slate. Spector and co. said they deliberately chose to make JC fairly non-descript in order to let the player project his (or her) own personality on to the character. Aside from a few smart-*** or tough guy remarks, JC maintains a neutral tone of voice throughout the game, and we hardly ever learn anything about his own childhood or backstory. Jensen, on the other hand, has a much more defined background and personality. Like Adrian Shepard said earlier (I think), I didn't really connect with Jensen because he wasn't all that interesting (IMO), but he certainly had a more established personality than JC.

If the developers are aiming for immersion, then they should go for the JC route and allow the player to shape the character to his or her own preferences. Go with a gender neutral name, allow for male or female choices, and let the player decide what gender they wish to play.

I don't act like Adam Jensen. I wouldn't have made the choices Adam makes in those stupid, stupid cutscenes. So if I don't feel like Adam is "me," why does it matter if he's male or female?

Bravo. Very well articulated. I especially agree with your assertions about the differences between JC and Adam. Those cutscenes were horrendous as they forced your player to interact in a way that could be totally opposite of how you set up the character. Deus Ex 1 had it right by not including any cutscenes to progress the story forward.


This is Square Enix we're talking about here. A Denton prequel would probably be nothing but Paul complaining about how "he never asked for [nanoaugmentation]," followed by cutscene after cutscene of our hero pining over his long lost love, Jordan Shea, who quit the Coalition to go tend bar in New York after some Big Misunderstanding™.

Ha ha so true! I actually know a guy named Jordan Shea so when I played the game I was like...what are the chances?!? He is a damn good basketball player too.

68_pie
21st Jun 2014, 00:35
I'm bored of playing as a male character.

The writing in DXHR was pretty bad.

Cutscenes suck.

Pretty sure people from Spain are Spanish not Hispanic.

WildcatPhoenix
21st Jun 2014, 01:28
I'm bored of playing as a male character.

Not only that. A white, American male character. From TV tropes: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ActionGenreHeroGuy



You know this guy, because you have seen him a thousand times. He has the lead role in almost every action movie and video game and, like Bruce Willis or Will Smith, has a single role that he repeats over and over again.
Unlike the Featureless Protagonist, he does have fixed attributes, and they are usually the same:
• Male.
• Almost always American.
• Born to blue-collar parents.
• Buzz-cut, fade, bald, or fauxhawk (if the story is set after 2000) black or dark brown hair.
• And shaved, usually with Perma Stubble. Growing the Beard means developing personality.
• Usually a former soldier or police officer, very rarely in active service. Can be an ex-convict instead of, or in addition to any of the above.
•When he was in the military he was overwhelmingly The Sarge, and is probably still called "Sarge" by his military pals.
• Uses handguns as his signature weapon. Rifles and submachine guns are always immediately discarded after using them.
• Almost always uses Good Old Fisticuffs as his fighting style, and if matched up against even an elite martial artist, will prevail.
• Will fight dirty.
• Chances are good his name is a monosyllabic simple name like Frank, Jim, Jack or John. ◦ Or he goes by an equally monosyllabic Red Baron title like Dutch, Duke or Spike.
◦ Or the world is permanently on Last Name Basis with him.

• Has a dead relative, a dead friend or is only in the action hero business because he has to save a loved one.
• Has no respect for authority, but his boss secretly admires him for this trait.
• A tendency to use One-Liners of varying quality.
• Usually smokes and drinks heavily.
• Typically drives a Cool Car or The Alleged Car.

This character has become immensely popular as the protagonist in video games in recent years. The difference from a Featureless Protagonist is that those characters are left without real characterization to let the player project their own ideas onto the character, while the Action Genre Hero Guy follows a very specific set of traits as listed above.
If you can remember a character's name, he is probably not an example.

Not all of these apply to Jensen, of course, and he's a better character than a Marcus Fenix or Soap from CoD. But I think a Deus Ex game should aim a lot higher than that pitifully low bar...



The writing in DXHR was pretty bad.

Honestly, it really was. And that makes me extremely sad. DX1's graphics were pretty awful. Its physics were a joke. Even some of the core gameplay has a lot of "charm" that has to be overlooked (CyberP and others have spent years trying to even out some of these rough edges...hey look, free advertisement!).

But at least the writing was superb. This is one area where DXHR really let me down.



Cutscenes suck.

Which is why I don't think we'll ever get a true Deus Ex experience while Square Enix is in charge of the franchise. They just can't get over that cutscene storytelling crutch.

CyberP
21st Jun 2014, 03:16
Honestly, it really was. And that makes me extremely sad. DX1's graphics were pretty awful. Its physics were a joke. Even some of the core gameplay has a lot "charm" that has to be overlooked (CyberP and others have spent years trying to even out some of these rough edges...hey look, free advertisement!).

http://www.meagankrystina.com/uploads/1/3/0/9/13093483/2384248_orig.jpg

:rasp:


But at least the writing was superb. This is one area where DXHR really let me down.

Eh, despite DX1's gameplay being rough around the edges it was still exceptional. HR Didn't live up in that regard either. I wouldn't say HR's writing (or gameplay, except stealth) was bad though. Not in comparison to the industry as a whole anyway.

But yes, Deus Ex's strongest points was gameplay and story, perhaps music too (though also rough around the edges). For HR probably it's polish and voice acting.


Which is why I don't think we'll ever get a true Deus Ex experience while Square Enix is in charge of the franchise.

Never. Though it's Eidos Montreal themselves too. You can see that they were given a notable amount of creative freedom with HR, otherwise it wouldn't have turned out as good as it was.


They just can't get over that cutscene storytelling crutch.

Eh, there wasn't that many cutscenes. Still too many though. Are we all repeating ourselves again? :nut:
EM needs to give us something else to whine about, but preferably publish some good news for once. At least SE announced that reform though, that was good news and had nobody complaining, just sceptical.

This article, well if true they are being ambitious but like I said, I fear Bioware syndrome.

EricaLeeV
21st Jun 2014, 03:49
But yes, Deus Ex's strongest points was gameplay and story, perhaps music too (though also rough around the edges). For HR probably it's polish and voice acting.

:T


Can't say I agree on the voice acting thing, but then again I hold it up to the standards of Naughty Dog and Rockstar titles. Not so fair, I suppose.

Sure, there were some spirited performances...but I feel like I can say the same for the original. I remember being kind of shocked that Paul and JC shared the same voice actor at first, but then I could connect the dots pretty well when they meet up in Hong Kong...but overall I was really impressed by that fact.

AdrianShephard
21st Jun 2014, 04:00
Can't say I agree on the voice acting thing, but then again I hold it up to the standards of Naughty Dog and Rockstar titles. Not so fair, I suppose.

I hated the voice acting of HR, especially Jensen. Raspy voice =/= emotionless. The audio director even said that they were going for a JC Denton's cousin vibe. Hitman: Absolution has some amazing voice acting (probably the only thing I liked about that game). Ah yes, and I can't forget about Red Dead Redemption. John Marston's voice actor is simply superb.


I remember being kind of shocked that Paul and JC shared the same voice actor at first, but then I could connect the dots pretty well when they meet up in Hong Kong...but overall I was really impressed by that fact.

I love Jay Anthony Franke. I find his normal voice (Paul's voice) to be soothing for some reason.

AdrianShephard
21st Jun 2014, 04:03
Pretty sure people from Spain are Spanish not Hispanic.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Hispanic

Hispanic: Of or relating to Spain or Spanish-speaking Latin America.

CyberP
21st Jun 2014, 04:07
I hated the voice acting of HR.


:T



f2R8wFSojbE

:lmao:

@Erica: Yeah I suppose. DX1 had quite a few not so good characters though, in addition to the great performances.

^Some decent pain/death sounds in that vid mind you :)

EricaLeeV
21st Jun 2014, 04:19
I hated the voice acting of HR, especially Jensen. Raspy voice =/= emotionless. The audio director even said that they were going for a JC Denton's cousin vibe.

I kind of got tired of the rasp too; but that is, crazy enough, the voice actor's normal voice. He seems like a nice enough guy too but yeah...

Who could forget this gem?

He09JaBVZdE

Wait...Cyber beat me to the punch before I could post! But that is amazing.


Ah yes, and I can't forget about Red Dead Redemption. John Marston's voice actor is simply superb.

Yeah John Marston was great. Too bad that was a one-time voice actor, but I'm happy for the performance he gave us.

_NuYx8oP_S8
Sorry to those that hate Polygon, but I like this video.


I love Jay Anthony Franke. I find his normal voice (Paul's voice) to be soothing for some reason.

You're not the only one who digs those dulcet tones, my friend.




@Erica: Yeah I suppose. DX1 had quite a few not so good characters though, in addition to the great performances.

The original's bad voice acting is a given, but I am more comparing voice acting chops with their respected contemporaries. Early 2000s was no gold mine in voice work but Deus Ex sure is notable for the bad stuff.

kihGm4KfY7k

Which is always an utter joy to hear.

CyberP
21st Jun 2014, 04:34
kihGm4KfY7k
.

This video wins the thread :lol:

"In a former life I was a mule dragging a stone plow up a hill in northern Thailand". :lol:

Don't think I've even heard that one before.

AdrianShephard
21st Jun 2014, 05:05
_NuYx8oP_S8
Sorry to those that hate Polygon, but I like this video.



Thanks for sharing this.

WildcatPhoenix
21st Jun 2014, 05:20
Sure, there were some spirited performances...but I feel like I can say the same for the original. I remember being kind of shocked that Paul and JC shared the same voice actor at first, but then I could connect the dots pretty well when they meet up in Hong Kong...but overall I was really impressed by that fact.

This probably comes pretty close to my own assessment of the voice acting. DX1's dialogue delivery runs the gamut from outstanding (Simons, Page, Paul, Gunther, Daedalus/Icarus, Everett) to cringe-worthy (Tong, Maggie Chow, quite frankly anyone in Hong Kong, lol). It's really quite a mixed bag, but aided by much more memorable NPCs and better characterization/dialogue in general. If your characters are saying something interesting, I'm much more willing to forgive some sketchy line delivery.

Overall DXHR's acting quality was much better, but good lord, did I get tired of Jensen's Batman voice. Just trying way too hard to sound cool or badass. And most of the characters (minor NPCs, especially) had next-to-nothing interesting to say anyway.

FrankCSIS
23rd Jun 2014, 02:25
Late to the party, as usual.

If we're going to have a trilogy, or at least two games, and they each follow the other, you know what I'd really, really like?

Let the story and some of the choices carry over from one game to another, but let us have a different protagonist in each ones.

I'd be stoked to play a portion of the trilogy story as male lead (game 1), and another portion of the story as a female lead (game 2), as it carries over to the second game. Two visions, from two characters, evolving in a continuous timeline. The second character, having to live in the second game with the choices of the first character, depending on decisions made by the player in the first game.

It's a lot of work, but it's also a lot less complicated than offering a gender choice at the beginning of each game.

I don't know if it would be a first in gaming, but I'm pretty sure it is unique enough to be a bad ass feature, and certainly one to talk about.

PS: On voice acting - Grim Fandango reigns supreme :)

CyberP
23rd Jun 2014, 02:55
Great concept, Frank. If the rumours are true, if they insist on doing a trilogy with continuous C&C then they should do it this way.

AdrianShephard
23rd Jun 2014, 15:54
If we're going to have a trilogy, or at least two games, and they each follow the other, you know what I'd really, really like?

Let the story and some of the choices carry over from one game to another, but let us have a different protagonist in each ones.


Great idea.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
24th Jun 2014, 17:27
Yeah, I'm liking this idea too. :cool:

Karpaw
25th Jun 2014, 12:59
https://i.imgur.com/nu2Mipb.jpg



wQeRboyjwDk

Shaikh
27th Jun 2014, 16:55
http://memecrunch.com/image/50db3a0eafa96f45a0000077.jpg?w=400
What's wrong? I can't love seeing lesbians in the game? :cool:

AdrianShephard
27th Jun 2014, 18:49
What's wrong? I can't love seeing lesbians in the game? :cool:
http://memecrunch.com/image/50db3a0eafa96f45a0000077.jpg?w=400

CyberP
27th Jun 2014, 22:57
As a sub plot/two minor NPCs you come across, I don't see why not. Heck, OK, make the protagonist a lesbian if that's what the devs want, just keep it out of the main plot, which should be about conspiracies and what have you.

Jito463
28th Jun 2014, 03:23
I love that picture. TLJ delivers just the right amount of annoyance, irritation and 'Are you serious?' in that look, heh. Out of curiosity, what is that from?

WildcatPhoenix
28th Jun 2014, 03:37
I love that picture. TLJ delivers just the right amount of annoyance, irritation and 'Are you serious?' in that look, heh. Out of curiosity, what is that from?

'No Country for Old Men,' I believe.

nomotog
28th Jun 2014, 18:41
I am kind of wondering if Jenison still counts as male with his robotic hips. Having a male or female protagonist is kind of simple when you think about what cybernetic augmentation could really mean for someone. I think I would be hip to the idea of a lesbian protagonist, but I would be over the moon if you had your protagonist pondering how their augmentations blur the meaning of the word. Likely wouldn't happen, but you know I can still ponder.

AlexOfSpades
28th Jun 2014, 19:27
Deus Ex is not a game about sexuality. Thus, the character's sexuality has absolutely nothing to do with the game. If you're a lesbian, i'm sorry but Deus Ex is not a game about your personal struggle.

nomotog
28th Jun 2014, 20:30
Deus Ex is not a game about sexuality. Thus, the character's sexuality has absolutely nothing to do with the game. If you're a lesbian, i'm sorry but Deus Ex is not a game about your personal struggle.

Your over thinking it. We all know Deus Ex is a game about doors (http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a375/Kailieann/deus_ex_door_flowchart_s.png), but that doesn't mean you can't have a lesbian protagonist.

AlexOfSpades
28th Jun 2014, 20:37
How can we expose to our player her sexuality, without being imature, insensitive or using stereotypes? Since the story should not cover romance nor sex, it would be necessary to FORCE sexuality to become relevant, just so she can say she's a lesbian.

Let's not forget that most people thought that DXHR's romance thing with Megan was unnecessary. If Adam was an Eve instead, it still would be unnecessary - although it would attract horny teenagers. "Did you hear? the new deus ex has lesbian sex lololol more lik day of sex amirite?" And then the veteran base reacts with hostility, and... you know the rest.

This whole thing is a bad idea. Sex in other games? Maybe. Sex in DX? NO.

68_pie
28th Jun 2014, 21:34
Asexual protagonist is fine with me.

WildcatPhoenix
28th Jun 2014, 22:46
Asexual protagonist is fine with me.

The point is that romantic relationships detract from the scope of the story. Imagine if JC Denton had a love interest (of any gender) in DX1: is he supposed to put his quest for answers on pause and go chasing after some boy/girlfriend, while millions are dying from the Gray Death and Bob Page is inching closer and closer to becoming an immortal demi-god?

There's nothing more clichéd or over-used in storytelling than the damsel-in-distress or the broken-hearted hero. DXHR trampled down both these well-worn paths, and the story suffered for it. I don't want to see this happen again. This isn't a dating simulation. It's supposed to be hard-edged cyberpunk science fiction, not The Sims.

68_pie
28th Jun 2014, 22:57
You're acting like I disagree with you?

AdrianShephard
28th Jun 2014, 23:05
Let's not forget that most people thought that DXHR's romance thing with Megan was unnecessary. Sex in other games? Maybe. Sex in DX? NO.

Asexual protagonist is fine with me.


There's nothing more clichéd or over-used in storytelling than the damsel-in-distress or the broken-hearted hero. DXHR trampled down both these well-worn paths, and the story suffered for it. I don't want to see this happen again. This isn't a dating simulation. It's supposed to be hard-edged cyberpunk science fiction, not The Sims.

I agree with all of these.

WildcatPhoenix
28th Jun 2014, 23:06
You're acting like I disagree with you?

Ummm...no? :scratch:

Didn't want to multiquote/wall o' text the previous three posts about this topic, so I just went with the last one.

68_pie
29th Jun 2014, 00:32
Ummm...no? :scratch:

Didn't want to multiquote/wall o' text the previous three posts about this topic, so I just went with the last one.

Ah OK, thought you were lecturing me or something.

AdrianShephard
29th Jun 2014, 01:31
Didn't want to multiquote/wall o' text the previous three posts about this topic, so I just went with the last one.

:D

nomotog
29th Jun 2014, 02:10
I am kind of a little tired of asexual heroes, or maybe a better way to put that is I am tired of characters that seem to be about frighting and little else. They are more common then I think people might notice and can be kind of dull. As the the original Deus Ex story. I think I might be on record saying that I found it kind of eh. I did enjoy HR's lets take the concept of human augmentation and run away with it setup. Even if it could get kind of heavy handed with it.. well almost all the time. Man was HR in your face with it's theme. I think there is more fun stuff to be had playing around with that then playing around with conspiracy, but at the same time there is really room for both.

CyberP
29th Jun 2014, 02:39
As the the original Deus Ex story. I think I might be on record saying that I found it kind of eh. .

Oh yes, I remember that thread, the one where you missed the point in it's story and gameplay. :thud:

nomotog
29th Jun 2014, 02:51
Oh yes, I remember that thread, the one where you missed the point in it's story and gameplay. :thud:

Well then you have a very long memory. I don't recall the thread. I just know I did mention Dues Ex's story being one of the weaker elements off the game. It has space alines was one of my complaints. As for gameplay, hmm. That could be interesting to look at. I know I always thought of the Deuse Ex gameplay as a subversion of choice. The game presents you with that it clams are mostly cut and dry choices (You can be good at opening locks or combat) , but then lets you totally wreck these choices. (Gep gun) I consider that subversion to be the real unique part of Deus Ex.

AdrianShephard
29th Jun 2014, 04:32
It has space alines was one of my complaints.

The "space alien" part wasn't even a big part of the plot...just a subplot that added atmosphere to the game. And aren't they genetically altered animals, not aliens? I remember DX 1 presenting the player with more than 1 explanation though.

WildcatPhoenix
29th Jun 2014, 04:33
I don't recall the thread. I just know I did mention Dues Ex's story being one of the weaker elements off the game.

Wow. I don't even know where to go with this.



It has space alines was one of my complaints.

Obviously you weren't paying that close of attention.

nomotog
29th Jun 2014, 05:17
Wow. I don't even know where to go with this.

Obviously you weren't paying that close of attention.

Well you can go were you want with it. Clones or actual from space alines doesn't change the fact they were little gray men inside area 51. (I had to giggle when I typed that.) Though it's not like I hate hate the story. The reveal that UNATO was evil was a really nice twist. Foreshadowed well and everything. The rest I think kind of suffers from conspiracy pileup. They throw in almost every conspiracy theory ever including aliens and it becomes hard to take seriously.

EricaLeeV
29th Jun 2014, 05:55
Well you can go were you want with it. Clones or actual from space alines doesn't change the fact they were little gray men inside area 51. (I had to giggle when I typed that.) Though it's not like I hate hate the story. The reveal that UNATO was evil was a really nice twist. Foreshadowed well and everything. The rest I think kind of suffers from conspiracy pileup. They throw in almost every conspiracy theory ever including aliens and it becomes hard to take seriously.

That's the charm of it. It's more like a callback mash-up story dedicated to the Cyberpunk 80s with a story inspired by the conspiracy-laden 90s. I never thought of it super serious; what with the goofy lines JC puts out sometimes, and other instances of the sort, I'm certain it did not mean to be glum.

It can have powerful themes and an emotional pull if you let it. But, much like the gameplay, it's not so much about originality as it is pulling several known elements together in a spectacular way.

Darthassin
29th Jun 2014, 13:18
There are very few games with big scale stories that manage pull off complexity, depth, moral ambiguity with lots of layers successfully without breaking cohesivnes of gameplay and story. (one of them is The Witcher 2 for example -- not to mention about choices and consequences). DXHR tried to do it and in some ways delivered but there are also sh**loads of story moments that could have been handeld waaaay better.

nomotog
29th Jun 2014, 15:01
That's the charm of it. It's more like a callback mash-up story dedicated to the Cyberpunk 80s with a story inspired by the conspiracy-laden 90s. I never thought of it super serious; what with the goofy lines JC puts out sometimes, and other instances of the sort, I'm certain it did not mean to be glum.

It can have powerful themes and an emotional pull if you let it. But, much like the gameplay, it's not so much about originality as it is pulling several known elements together in a spectacular way.

I'll buy that. It's just I bet 3 or 4 people will pop out talking about how it's the most serous plot line in gaming...

WildcatPhoenix
29th Jun 2014, 16:08
I'll buy that. It's just I bet 3 or 4 people will pop out talking about how it's the most serous plot line in gaming...

Since when did "serious" become a synonym for "great?"

The plotline of Deus Ex is about the Illuminati, Area 51, and just about every other conspiracy ever cooked up. Even the "giant rats in the sewers" conspiracy is supposed to be real in the Deus Ex world. It's a hilariously paranoid compilation of crackball theories.

What makes it impressive is how the plot manages to blend all of these conspiracy theories into a (fairly) cohesive and entertaining narrative. And the characters, the atmosphere, the dialogue are all top notch. DX deserves its reputation as one of the greatest of all time, gameplay and voice-acting quirks aside.

AlexOfSpades
29th Jun 2014, 16:35
All of that doesn't matter because it didn't have lesbian sex.

CyberP
29th Jun 2014, 16:42
All of that doesn't matter because it didn't have lesbian sex.

And Bourne-like takedowns.

WildcatPhoenix
29th Jun 2014, 17:02
And Bourne-like takedowns.

And romance.

I WANT MY JC/MAGGIE CHOW/ANNA NAVARRE LOVE TRIANGLE, DAMN IT!

Shralla
29th Jun 2014, 17:14
I'll buy that. It's just I bet 3 or 4 people will pop out talking about how it's the most serous plot line in gaming...

...that's because it is. Government-sponsored terrorism, new world order, corporations controlling the world... Maybe it seems like a cluster**** to you but the fact is that these things ARE happening all over the world, and all at the same time. It's like X-Files, unraveling a conspiracy just takes you deeper and deeper.

nomotog
29th Jun 2014, 17:40
...that's because it is. Government-sponsored terrorism, new world order, corporations controlling the world... Maybe it seems like a cluster**** to you but the fact is that these things ARE happening all over the world, and all at the same time. It's like X-Files, unraveling a conspiracy just takes you deeper and deeper.

It can't be both though (or can it?). Is it a serous story about the Illuminati threat or goofy mash up of every conspiracy theory played straight because it's fun. I don't really think it works as a serious story. I think it's mostly because I can't take actual conspiracy theory seriously in real life, so a game more or less pulling them out and playing them straight comes off as silly. I imagine a Dr.strange love character yelling about fluoridation. (It's just toothpaste.) Actually did DX have a fluoridation bit? I don't recall it being there, but boy would it fit.

AdrianShephard
29th Jun 2014, 18:47
I think it's mostly because I can't take actual conspiracy theory seriously in real life, so a game more or less pulling them out and playing them straight comes off as silly.

IMO, DX 1 presented a lot of "theories" that are either happening right now or will happen. Big corporations controlling the government, the power that lies in a few people's hands when the constitution is suspended, and controlled treatment of diseases have all happened or are happening today. This is not mentioning the brainwashing and experiments on humans that many universities/the government did on people in the past (example is the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment). Your definitely entitled to your opinion about not taking conspiracy theories seriously (I, for one, don't believe in the alien/Roswell theories) but I wanted you to know that many of them aren't baseless.



Is it a serous story about the Illuminati threat or goofy mash up of every conspiracy theory played straight because it's fun.

I viewed the "giant rats in the sewers" and other similar mentions as easter eggs rather than part of the main plot.

AdrianShephard
29th Jun 2014, 18:52
And romance.

And a raspy voiced protagonist.

nomotog
29th Jun 2014, 20:08
IMO, DX 1 presented a lot of "theories" that are either happening right now or will happen. Big corporations controlling the government, the power that lies in a few people's hands when the constitution is suspended, and controlled treatment of diseases have all happened or are happening today. This is not mentioning the brainwashing and experiments on humans that many universities/the government did on people in the past (example is the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment). Your definitely entitled to your opinion about not taking conspiracy theories seriously (I, for one, don't believe in the alien/Roswell theories) but I wanted you to know that many of them aren't baseless.
I viewed the "giant rats in the sewers" and other similar mentions as easter eggs rather than part of the main plot.

Yes they are happening now, but they weren't really happening back in the time I played Dues Ex. You could make the argument that Deus Ex was ahead of it's time, but I think it may have simply been behind the times. The conspiracies in Dues Ex have a cold war vibe to them. The men in black, black helicopters, aliens, ect.

That actually leads me HR because HR has it's conspiracies too, but I can take them more seriously then I could take Deus Ex for a few reasons. One is the world HR came out in. It came out after things like the patriot act and Guantanamo bay. Having things like that happening makes it easier to buy a lot of these ideas.

HR also more mad up it's own conspiracies well Deus Ex used well know ones. A big difference between DX and HR is that HR is fantasy world. It creates a different world with it's visuals and art style. DX is very recognizable as the world we are in now only dirty. It's easier to take fake conspiracies in a fantasy world seriously then it is to take seriously real conspiracies in what is more or less our world.

I guess finally the plot line of HR kept things small. DX had a big thing where bob page (I always assumed he was meant to be bill gates?) has taken over the world is about to become god. Meanwhile HR is more of a simple story. I guess people complain about that, but it dose help keep the conspiracy more manageable.

Though story is like the second to last thing I worry about when playing Dues Ex, so you know.


And a raspy voiced protagonist.

You know the disappointing thing is we likely won't get a new protagonist. Odds are we will get Adam again.. Only 30% more raspy... Well I guess we can still hope.

WildcatPhoenix
29th Jun 2014, 20:18
Though story is like the second to last thing I worry about when playing Dues Ex, so you know.


I just...I can't continue this conversation.

CyberP
29th Jun 2014, 21:33
I viewed the "giant rats in the sewers" and other similar mentions as easter eggs rather than part of the main plot.

Eh, I thought that was alluding to the Karkians:


NEWSPAPER

!=!==!=== MIDNIGHT SUN ===!==!=!
Giant Rat Stalks New York?

NEW YORK -- In recent weeks a rash of mutilated corpses -- many of them found
near docks, subways, or sewers -- had garnered nothing but indifference from the
NYPD. "Isolated and unremarkable" in the words of one police spokesperson. But
while the police seem content to categorize these horrible crimes as nothing
more than simple cases of homicide or suicide among the poor and indigent,
eyewitness accounts tell a different and all together more frightening story.
"'is a monster, 'nnit?" says Dickie Cork, a sailor aboard the Matilda Briggs out
of Sumatra. "Thing looked like a rat, it did, only it was big, 'bout the size of
a lion or sumthin'."
Numerous other witnesses all telling remarkably similar accounts of the creature
have come forward in recent weeks, but the police refuse to act calling the
descriptions "ludicrous" without any further investigation. But regardless of
the truth, the police choose to sit idly by as the killings continue and poor,
law-abiding citizens pay the price. -- Joe Greene, Senior Staff Writer

Yes. That's exactly what it was alluding to.

AdrianShephard
29th Jun 2014, 22:04
Eh, I thought that was alluding to the Karkians

Thanks for the info. I must have never paid attention to that or else connected the dots then forgot.

AlexOfSpades
29th Jun 2014, 22:09
Aren't karkians a reference to the "alligators in the sewers" conspiracy?

Shralla
29th Jun 2014, 22:53
Yes they are happening now, but they weren't really happening back in the time I played Dues Ex.

Yes they were, you just didn't know it. You think X-Files was based on nothing? You're looking at something that was trying to give you an early warning and acting like it just happened to end up being accurate. FFS it practically predicted 9/11. Not as eerily as The Lone Gunmen pilot episode (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRtqQLMAZek), which aired in March 2001 and detailed a plot by a splinter government agency to fly a passenger airliner into the World Trade Center, but plenty of it is based on conspiracies from both that time and now.


HR also more mad up it's own conspiracies well Deus Ex used well know ones.

And they were all lackluster and boring.


Though story is like the second to last thing I worry about when playing Dues Ex, so you know.

What do I know? That there's no reason for you to play Deus Ex at all?

FrankCSIS
30th Jun 2014, 01:07
They were pretty much dead on in their timing. There was nothing truly new, nor really old, about most of the theories brought up in the game, goofy or serious. It was perfect 90's stuff, which we used to discuss and joke about back then, until some of it became so well known (like Echelon) it went from conspiracy lore to being apathetically accepted.

I thought the blend of serious and "out there" worked pretty well, but then I was always big on X Files, who mastered this approach to conspiracies, real or made up. If it worked for X Files, I can't see why it wouldn't for DX. It's a little harder to get fully sucked in by X Files' conspiracy lore now than it was back then, but the series still ranks way high in the "best of all times" list. And frankly, the only reason some of their conspiracies seem to have aged a little, it's only because, in some cases, world events and some revelations have proven to be far worse!

Aliens in DX...Unless you were living under a rock in the 90's, you have to know it was probably the biggest thing around in pop culture, along with dinosaurs. They had to be in Deus Ex, much like they were mostly a huge plot device in X Files. Area 51, the alien autopsy, project blue book, Roswell....How could they NOT include this in DX somehow? ;)

Shralla
30th Jun 2014, 01:19
Ever see the X-Files spinoff The Lone Gunmen? Check out the pilot I edited into my post if you liked X-Files. The Lone Gunmen was a short lived show but it was absolutely worthy of being an X-Files spinoff, and it's a crime it got canceled. They were just a little too early in jumping on the geek chic train. Nerds weren't "in" yet, so a show about a group of three fairly believable nerdy guys wasn't what the market wanted.

FrankCSIS
30th Jun 2014, 01:25
I heard about it, but I don't know if it actually aired in Canada.

You're right though, they were definitely too early to be marketable then, at least as a full-on spinoff.

I remember really loving the episodes they were in, in the mother series, and many people liked them too. I don't know what the actors are up to now, but it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to bring back the concept, in truth. As it turned out, what we've been hearing in the past years is certainly right up their alley.

CyberP
30th Jun 2014, 17:10
What do I know? That there's no reason for you to play Deus Ex at all?

Gameplay you turd! Music?

For me it's Gameplay > Story > Music > everything else.



I thought the blend of serious and "out there" worked pretty well, but then I was always big on X Files, who mastered this approach to conspiracies, real or made up. If it worked for X Files, I can't see why it wouldn't for DX. It's a little harder to get fully sucked in by X Files' conspiracy lore now than it was back then, but the series still ranks way high in the "best of all times" list. And frankly, the only reason some of their conspiracies seem to have aged a little, it's only because, in some cases, world events and some revelations have proven to be far worse!

Aliens in DX...Unless you were living under a rock in the 90's, you have to know it was probably the biggest thing around in pop culture, along with dinosaurs. They had to be in Deus Ex, much like they were mostly a huge plot device in X Files. Area 51, the alien autopsy, project blue book, Roswell....How could they NOT include this in DX somehow? ;)

This is all truth. The truth is not out there, it's right here ;)

InGroove2
30th Jun 2014, 17:53
They were pretty much dead on in their timing. There was nothing truly new, nor really old, about most of the theories brought up in the game, goofy or serious. It was perfect 90's stuff, which we used to discuss and joke about back then, until some of it became so well known (like Echelon) it went from conspiracy lore to being apathetically accepted.

I thought the blend of serious and "out there" worked pretty well, but then I was always big on X Files, who mastered this approach to conspiracies, real or made up. If it worked for X Files, I can't see why it wouldn't for DX. It's a little harder to get fully sucked in by X Files' conspiracy lore now than it was back then, but the series still ranks way high in the "best of all times" list. And frankly, the only reason some of their conspiracies seem to have aged a little, it's only because, in some cases, world events and some revelations have proven to be far worse!

Aliens in DX...Unless you were living under a rock in the 90's, you have to know it was probably the biggest thing around in pop culture, along with dinosaurs. They had to be in Deus Ex, much like they were mostly a huge plot device in X Files. Area 51, the alien autopsy, project blue book, Roswell....How could they NOT include this in DX somehow? ;)


the xfiles influence on the original DX is way under appreciated. from the subject matter all the way to the music. DX added a corporate layer that is not really in the Xfiles, however.

in any case. as much as I love HR (oh how i do), eidos montreal could use an all company watch of at least all of the mythology episodes of the xfiles... (i wouldnt put anyone through rewatching a few of the episodes... the one with kathy griffin? ouch.)

CyberP
30th Jun 2014, 18:02
I decided for the GMDX v6 trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLTwOoqw_sE) to have a slight X-Files theme in the music and the font used (specifically named X-files).

nomotog
30th Jun 2014, 18:29
Gameplay you turd! Music?

For me it's Gameplay > Story > Music > everything else.

It's all about the gameplay. *puts on cool sunglasses* Though it's not like the story is really bad. I may have giving the wrong impression when I called it Eh. Erica pointed out that it could be taken as charming and silly. If viewed in that way, it kind of works. It really only starts to crack when you start putting too much presser on it.

CyberP
30th Jun 2014, 18:43
It's all about the gameplay. *puts on cool sunglasses* Though it's not like the story is really bad. I may have giving the wrong impression when I called it Eh. Erica pointed out that it could be taken as charming and silly. If viewed in that way, it kind of works. It really only starts to crack when you start putting too much presser on it.

I want to give you a thumbs up for the first sentence, but I believe it's story to be one of the most relevant and well-written in all of gaming also.
You are eastern European right (wild guess)? Perhaps you played a translated version of the game, not English...?
Hmm, I don't think there even is translated version actually, the localization file only handles gameplay-related text (menus & UI stuff) if I am not mistaken.

Shralla
30th Jun 2014, 19:13
Gameplay you turd! Music?

For me it's Gameplay > Story > Music > everything else.

Well yeah. But even with gameplay as great as Deus Ex, it needs to have something behind it, a solid and believable world to explore and uncover. Without that the gameplay would simply be gameplay, rather than truly a way to interact with another world.

FrankCSIS
30th Jun 2014, 23:13
It's all about the gameplay. *puts on cool sunglasses* Though it's not like the story is really bad. I may have giving the wrong impression when I called it Eh. Erica pointed out that it could be taken as charming and silly. If viewed in that way, it kind of works. It really only starts to crack when you start putting too much presser on it.

It's entirely possible you didn't get into it. And I can appreciate it wasn't for everyone, almost a niche. Or at least, pop culture niche. But again, you really have to consider the mid-to-late nineties period to understand why it's a lot more than a charming silly story.

X Files was in full gear, along with a good list of big pictures like Enemy of the State (1998), JFK (1991) and Conspiracy Theory (1997), the Roswell tv series (for what it was worth!), and a buttload of games, such as Half Life. A ton of publications revived interests for the paranormal, the funky conspiracy theories about the moon landing, the pyramids ,and aliens. We started to hear about the NSA, jokingly called the No Such Agency. France was just getting extremely pissed off about the Echelon program. We were making fun of this whole surveillance thing by answering every phone call with "Bomb". "I want to believe" struck a chord, because, as a culture, the Occident had evolved from the Soviet Espionage scene to a broader and more global phantasm of government conspiracies. The enemy was no longer the simple commie spy, but rather the unbranded dark-lanternist moving about in the shadows.

If you were remotely involved with this scene, Deus Ex was an absolute blast to follow, and brought a splendid twist on the 80's Cyberpunk scene. Of course, the game could have been really good by sticking to the usual tropes, but they've branched into another territory, merging the corporate and technological aspect of cyberpunk with the 90's conspiracy vibe. The end result is rather brilliant, even if a lot of it is pretty silly on paper.

Just to end this, it also served a huge purpose regarding what they aimed to do in the storytelling department. What they wanted, as numerously stated, was to build a structure in which the player would "create" his experience of the story by the action he would take and the stuff he would discover, on his own, through gameplay. With this in mind, you understand a "detective" story worked extremely well, as opposed to a more action-oriented plot. Having layers upon layers of material to uncover, taking you down some conspiracy abyss (* la L.A. Confidential), was absolutely necessary for the experience they wished to build, gameplay and story-wise. This also goes to expose why HR lacks in the story side of things, making it more of an action movie than a classic conspiracy flick.

WildcatPhoenix
1st Jul 2014, 02:58
Just to end this, it also served a huge purpose regarding what they aimed to do in the storytelling department. What they wanted, as numerously stated, was to build a structure in which the player would "create" his experience of the story by the action he would take and the stuff he would discover, on his own, through gameplay. With this in mind, you understand a "detective" story worked extremely well, as opposed to a more action-oriented plot. Having layers upon layers of material to uncover, taking you down some conspiracy abyss (* la L.A. Confidential), was absolutely necessary for the experience they wished to build, gameplay and story-wise. This also goes to expose why HR lacks in the story side of things, making it more of an action movie than a classic conspiracy flick.

Well said, Frank. The thing is: JC Denton didn't realize he was a detective, not at first. You think you're walking into a relatively straightforward "good guys versus terrorists" scenario, and then you see/hear some sketchy stuff that makes you start to question your orders, then BOOM, the rug is pulled completely out from under you. You realize you've just uncovered the thread of something sinister, and as you start to pull on that thread, the true scope of the conspiracy reveals itself to be larger and larger with each mission.

Unfortunately, it's this last part that has been so elusive in all of the sequels to DX1. You can't ever really put the "cat back in the bag," so to speak. Players will always be expecting a twist from now on. They'll know someone is lying to them (honestly, I was shocked when David Sarif didn't turn out to be some mass-murdering conspirator in DXHR). It's very hard to write a sequel to Deus Ex that still manages to capture the same level of mysteriousness and foreboding that I got from DX1.

Which is why, for better or worse, the writers of DXHR chose to "go small" with the story.

nomotog
1st Jul 2014, 03:12
I wonder. Was anyone else a little disappointed that David Sarif didn't turn out to be the secret bad guy? He even starts off a little shady so I was just waiting for him to betray you and was a little let down when he didn't.

JCpies
1st Jul 2014, 14:00
Well he was shady, using Adam's DNA without his knowing, gathering information about his past without him knowing, giving Adam military grade violent augs without his permission, etc.

I'm glad he wasn't written as some evil bad guy, I think he's alright deep down and I love Stephen Shellen's voice acting.

Karpaw
1st Jul 2014, 14:14
By this point, the "secretly villainous boss who betrays the protagonist" is a well-worn cliché in games. Sarif would have been a worse character if he turned out to be another Manderley, to the surprise of nobody.



Well said, Frank. The thing is: JC Denton didn't realize he was a detective, not at first. You think you're walking into a relatively straightforward "good guys versus terrorists" scenario, and then you see/hear some sketchy stuff that makes you start to question your orders, then BOOM, the rug is pulled completely out from under you. You realize you've just uncovered the thread of something sinister, and as you start to pull on that thread, the true scope of the conspiracy reveals itself to be larger and larger with each mission.

Unfortunately, it's this last part that has been so elusive in all of the sequels to DX1. You can't ever really put the "cat back in the bag," so to speak. Players will always be expecting a twist from now on. They'll know someone is lying to them (honestly, I was shocked when David Sarif didn't turn out to be some mass-murdering conspirator in DXHR). It's very hard to write a sequel to Deus Ex that still manages to capture the same level of mysteriousness and foreboding that I got from DX1.

Which is why, for better or worse, the writers of DXHR chose to "go small" with the story.


I think it's also because the cultural zeitgeist changed between DX1 and DXHR. By the time DXHR went into production, Dan Brown had come along and popularized conspiracy fiction with a pseudohistorical basis. Suddenly everyone had heard of the Illuminati as a shadowy counterpart to the Catholic church, covertly influencing society over centures or even millenia. Thay may have prompted EM to retcon the organization into a modern Information Age oligarchy with little or no connection to their historical namesake. Ubisoft basically appropriated DX1-era Illuminati into Assassin's Creed under the name of Templars and it feels pretty hokey there but maybe that's because the presentation is so removed from the cyberpunk-noir-detective stylings in DX1.

Shralla
1st Jul 2014, 18:02
By this point, the "secretly villainous boss who betrays the protagonist" is a well-worn cliché in games. Sarif would have been a worse character if he turned out to be another Manderley, to the surprise of nobody.

This. As it stands, he's one of the better written characters in the game. He's a true idealist, somebody who genuinely wants to make everything better and doesn't see the problem with augmenting one person without his permission if it means unlocking the secret to rejection-free augmentation for everybody in the world. If he had been dealt a different hand in life he might have ended up being a bad person, but fortunately he wasn't.

nomotog
1st Jul 2014, 18:11
By this point, the "secretly villainous boss who betrays the protagonist" is a well-worn cliché in games. Sarif would have been a worse character if he turned out to be another Manderley, to the surprise of nobody.


I know.. It would have been cliché, perdictable, and make the story weaker, but was still wanted it. *Insert logical wining.* I mean how do you do a DX story without that big betrayal. Even invisible war did it.

As a adjacent thought that might be a problem people had with HR. It doesn't really feel like a DX story. It hits completely different beats and has a completely different setting. Actually the conspiracy angle barely gets much attention apart from some winks here and there. You could rip out all conspiracy elements of HR and still have a fully intact story. Rip the conspiracy out of Dx and you have one very very short game.

AdrianShephard
1st Jul 2014, 22:55
As a adjacent thought that might be a problem people had with HR. It doesn't really feel like a DX story. It hits completely different beats and has a completely different setting. Actually the conspiracy angle barely gets much attention apart from some winks here and there. You could rip out all conspiracy elements of HR and still have a fully intact story. Rip the conspiracy out of Dx and you have one very very short game.

The biggest weakness of HR. I hope EM is reading this...I won't stomach another Deus Ex like HR.

WildcatPhoenix
1st Jul 2014, 23:01
As a adjacent thought that might be a problem people had with HR. It doesn't really feel like a DX story. It hits completely different beats and has a completely different setting. Actually the conspiracy angle barely gets much attention apart from some winks here and there. You could rip out all conspiracy elements of HR and still have a fully intact story. Rip the conspiracy out of Dx and you have one very very short game.

EM seems to have taken the lore in a far more transhumanist direction than DX1 or Invisible War did. There wasn't much debate about "are augmentations good for us/society?" in either of the original games, but that's the overwhelming theme of DXHR, not conspiracies.

Which I worry may become a trend in EM-developed Deus Ex games going forward.

nomotog
2nd Jul 2014, 00:52
EM seems to have taken the lore in a far more transhumanist direction than DX1 or Invisible War did. There wasn't much debate about "are augmentations good for us/society?" in either of the original games, but that's the overwhelming theme of DXHR, not conspiracies.

Which I worry may become a trend in EM-developed Deus Ex games going forward.

Well there is more you can do with the transhumanist angle. It's a fruitful topic with a lot of ideas and issues to play with. (Blurry lesbian cyborgs for one. :P) The conspiracy angle is harder to play with. There is only so much you can do with it and it loses impact the more you use it.

CyberP
2nd Jul 2014, 01:09
http://memecrunch.com/image/50db3a0eafa96f45a0000077.jpg?w=400

AdrianShephard
2nd Jul 2014, 01:34
There wasn't much debate about "are augmentations good for us/society?" in either of the original games, but that's the overwhelming theme of DXHR, not conspiracies.

Which I worry may become a trend in EM-developed Deus Ex games going forward.

That's exactly what will happen. Just look at the trademarked "Mankind Divided". Any hope of real conspiracies in Deus Ex is misplaced when EM is in charge. I'm just riding along in hopes that more original voice-actors/composer reprise their roles and then I can point at the screen and relive my favorite Deus Ex 1 moments. That's all this is now...me looking for mementos.

WildcatPhoenix
2nd Jul 2014, 04:27
Well there is more you can do with the transhumanist angle. It's a fruitful topic with a lot of ideas and issues to play with. (Blurry lesbian cyborgs for one. :P) The conspiracy angle is harder to play with. There is only so much you can do with it and it loses impact the more you use it.

I agree with you to a limited degree that the "everyone is lying to you, it's all a conspiracy!" card is difficult to play over and over again. I also believe transhumanism can be a fruitful topic to explore, if approached with nuance and creativity. DXHR, in my opinion, failed on both those fronts. There was absolutely nothing nuanced or subtle about the ideas presented by Human Revolution. And good lord, did they ever beat you over the head with the subject.

I feel like a broken record here, but I'll say it again: if DX4 wants to address transhumanist issues, fine. But don't be a one-trick pony. Touch on other equally interesting topics, like inequality, freedom of information vs. security (or the broader subject of personal liberty vs. public security), the corporatization of politics, nationalism vs. globalism, etc.

And for god's sake, enough of the "Golden Age" or neo-Renaissance whatever. That world, to me, is duller than dishwater. Give me conflict, chaos, the beginning of the collapse.

AlexOfSpades
2nd Jul 2014, 04:37
Give me more than one color, too.

nomotog
2nd Jul 2014, 05:37
I agree with you to a limited degree that the "everyone is lying to you, it's all a conspiracy!" card is difficult to play over and over again. I also believe transhumanism can be a fruitful topic to explore, if approached with nuance and creativity. DXHR, in my opinion, failed on both those fronts. There was absolutely nothing nuanced or subtle about the ideas presented by Human Revolution. And good lord, did they ever beat you over the head with the subject.

I feel like a broken record here, but I'll say it again: if DX4 wants to address transhumanist issues, fine. But don't be a one-trick pony. Touch on other equally interesting topics, like inequality, freedom of information vs. security (or the broader subject of personal liberty vs. public security), the corporatization of politics, nationalism vs. globalism, etc.

And for god's sake, enough of the "Golden Age" or neo-Renaissance whatever. That world, to me, is duller than dishwater. Give me conflict, chaos, the beginning of the collapse.

I'm not going to say HR failed at exploring transhumanism, but do agree. They really do beat you over the head with it and a lot of their explorations are kind of Problem+plus augments without really relating the two well to each other. This didn't bug me too much personally, but they are reasons to take away points. I wonder if they can do things better in the next game. I kind of doubt it. Video games tend to be kind of bad at being subtle.

I think you will get your way with the ending of the golden age. The bits of information they have released points to a bleaker future.

BridgetFisher
2nd Jul 2014, 08:34
I like being able to carry over player stuff like characters and XP, I liked that in Dead Island alot and Mass Effect. If Deus Ex is legally allowed to do the same thing as them since the other games did it first so its kinda their idea. Id really like to see that idea in the Deus Ex series, writing a trilogy sounds more manageable than a whole "Universe", haha besides Square aint got that kinda dosh anymore, though their video game sales lately been real bad past few releases, their manga part is holding up pretty stable, but stable is never good when things need to grow and expand.

CyberP
2nd Jul 2014, 08:38
I like being able to carry over player stuff like characters and XP, I liked that in Dead Island alot and Mass Effect. If Deus Ex is legally allowed to do the same thing as them since the other games did it first so its kinda their idea.

Oh Bridget, you're so cute in your inexperience.

Noob.

AdrianShephard
2nd Jul 2014, 18:54
Oh Bridget, you're so cute in your inexperience.

Noob.

:D

Shralla
4th Jul 2014, 18:00
I think we need some perspective in here.

If you think that the conspiracies in Deus Ex are crazy or unbelievable or there are just too many of them for it to be anything but laughable, spend fifteen minutes on this website and then try to say that. Deus Ex is tame as far as conspiracies go, and there are far more hilarious and ridiculous ones that people actually believe.

http://beforeitsnews.com/

CyberP
4th Jul 2014, 19:00
I think we need some perspective in here.

If you think that the majority of the conspiracies in Deus Ex are crazy or unbelievable or there are just too many of them for it to be anything but laughable, you've obviously never read a history book/know nothing about history in general.

Fixed.

AdrianShephard
4th Jul 2014, 19:24
Fixed.

I like that one better.

Shralla
4th Jul 2014, 20:20
I mean, yeah. There's that too. I just want everyone to know that people believe in all sorts of bull**** that's literally just crazy. That website swore up and down that there was going to be a huge terrorist attack at the Superbowl this year. Thousands of people believed it, and just shrugged it off when it didn't happen, only to go on believing the next ridiculous and easy to disprove thing.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
5th Jul 2014, 10:36
Ultimately, the brain is purely concerned with survival....

MasterTaffer
16th Jul 2014, 19:45
*Lick lips*

Lady_Of_The_Vine
16th Jul 2014, 20:08
Oooh, tasty! :cool:

CyberP
16th Jul 2014, 20:45
I'd be ashamed to wear it. Deus Ex Sweatshop Worker™

Just kidding. Half kidding.

Shralla
16th Jul 2014, 21:20
Looks like the reveal will happen a lot sooner™ than the Director's Cut patch.

Also there are still at least a half dozen people every time something about DXU gets posted that think it's an MMO. They could not have picked a worse name.

Wulfgar
23rd Jul 2014, 20:04
I apologise if this has been cleared before but I did not have the time to read all posts. I have just read that new DX game will be THIRD person action?? That would suck beyond normal for me. Link (check the Details box on the right): http://www.deusexcentral.com/games/deusex-universe/

Shralla
23rd Jul 2014, 20:27
They haven't said anything about it at all.

Wulfgar
23rd Jul 2014, 21:57
Ahhhh good!!!! I was really affraid! Thank you!

Lady_Of_The_Vine
24th Jul 2014, 07:40
Ah, reminds me of one of Terry Pratchett's statements :cool:

“A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on.”

:naughty:

OneUp77
27th Jul 2014, 19:30
WOW some shirts I don't care about.

Mousehunt
12th Sep 2014, 04:09
I played as a female Shepard in Mass Effect. I'm unsure why exactly, maybe it was just because she was pretty and cool looking.

Anyway, I think having the option to play as male or female is nice.

BridgetFisher
13th Sep 2014, 06:58
bro i hope theyll copy more mechanics from mass effect like romance scenes and more cinematics :)

It would be very good to have more of a romance mechanic built into the game around forming relationships. The added gameplay element is always very popular among gamers especially those of us who love the cyberpunk genre.

Also third person is much better for this type of game. Glad their going the immersion route this time.

Shralla
13th Sep 2014, 07:08
The added gameplay element is always very popular among gamers especially those of us who love the cyberpunk genre.

What? According to whom?


Also third person is much better for this type of game. Glad their going the immersion route this time.

They haven't said anything about this game at all, never mind talking about perspective. Pretty much all games going for "immersion" have been first-person.

CyberP
13th Sep 2014, 14:48
I miss HERESY.

AlexOfSpades
13th Sep 2014, 16:36
In regards to romance:

The problem with this is that the character has to be persistent, as in, you get to meet him/her in several hubs in order to continuously build a relationship. Unless she's always in the same place, and you can go there between city hubs. What would this contribute to the story, though? I play Deus Ex to save the world from a global conspiracy, not to bang. I vote against.

In regards to male/female:

Allowing this would effectively double the costs of voice acting for the main character, as they would have to record twice as many lines with two voice actors. This would kick up the budget, as well as development time. Is it worth the hassle of losing character identity (i'm sure that adam jensen and eve jensen behave differently) and having to pay more and lose time, just to have this option? How about the next Deus Ex coming just with a female protagonist, to balance it out?

FrankCSIS
14th Sep 2014, 13:06
How about the next Deus Ex coming just with a female protagonist, to balance it out?

As previously mentioned, if this is really to be a trilogy, or multiple games anyway, with a carry-over storyline, I'd love to see story continuation being tackled by a different main character from one game to the other. A female protagonist, introduced as a character in one game and played in the other could be really neat and almost unique.

Instead of starting off where the first game ends, you could start halfway or three quarters into the first game, and cover more grounds of the universe and story. Black Mesa easily contained three protagonists! Deus Ex has the world as its playground, surely it could be done without stretching a muscle, and avoiding repetition. What if half of what you've done in the first game, with intent to do good, has produced a negative impact somewhere else, and affected the lives of other characters. Your multiple protagonists would be linked, not by blood or relationship, but by the unveiling events. Things you do in game 1 impact game 2. To truly intertwine the games though, you should hear about events in game 1 (in passing news or convo) which you actually play in game 2. When you have the luxury of planning 2-3 games ahead, you should always try to link them in both directions!

Besides, it would give an actual meaning to the term "Universe"! And force an interesting large-scale story with multiple layers, that isn't hell-bent on saving the world from one evil plot with each new title. The more world-saving heroes they add to these prequels, the less sense it makes with the first DX game.

AdrianShephard
15th Sep 2014, 01:11
Black Mesa easily contained three protagonists!

And one of them was 100x cooler than the others.

Mousehunt
15th Sep 2014, 02:43
I like the idea. Playing part of the first story from a different point of view with a different character.

I was hoping for something like that in Mass Effect, nope, it was three identical games with Shepard getting less rpg as it went along.

FrankCSIS
15th Sep 2014, 02:46
And one of them was 100x cooler than the others.

Oh please, you get the idea, silly :p

BridgetFisher
18th Sep 2014, 07:28
In regards to romance:

The problem with this is that the character has to be persistent, as in, you get to meet him/her in several hubs in order to continuously build a relationship. Unless she's always in the same place, and you can go there between city hubs. What would this contribute to the story, though? I play Deus Ex to save the world from a global conspiracy, not to bang. I vote against.

In regards to male/female:

Allowing this would effectively double the costs of voice acting for the main character, as they would have to record twice as many lines with two voice actors. This would kick up the budget, as well as development time. Is it worth the hassle of losing character identity (i'm sure that adam jensen and eve jensen behave differently) and having to pay more and lose time, just to have this option? How about the next Deus Ex coming just with a female protagonist, to balance it out?

This is true, though its a bit early to speculate its 2014, the game might not take place in one place instead of all over the world? Even if all over the world like Fable we can purchase a residence at various locations where our spouse can live with us. It would also be nice to include various ideas for home decor due to the genre so players could say choose, steampunk, technoasian aka otaku, or cyberpunk, without being boxed in to one style. I think having a few choices is doable games did this going back to Fable decades ago, so they can pull it off today with the right technology and stay on budget. Romance can be make or break for most gamers in gaming today so hoping that Deus Ex doesnt miss the chance to expand its universe crafting an icon of epic proportions.

DarkForge
18th Sep 2014, 07:32
Instead of starting off where the first game ends, you could start halfway or three quarters into the first game, and cover more grounds of the universe and story. Black Mesa easily contained three protagonists!


Psst... there were five (possibly even seven!) Also, four and five were both female, though I guess ultimately they were just as "blank slate" as the rest of the Half-Life player characters.

I would absolutely LOVE a Deus Ex game with a female protagonist, one with actual character and personality. Say what you want about Invisible War but I really appreciate that game gave us the choice. I always get the feeling though that if Alex Denton was ever worked back into the story or even just referenced again somewhere down the line, they'd probably just consider him to be male and be done with it. Having a full-time female player character would really help to diversify things more and help the Deus Ex universe not seem like it's just a "boy's world".

Hell, I'd take a prequel game playing as Anna Navarre! :cool:

68_pie
18th Sep 2014, 07:59
This is true, though its a bit early to speculate its 2014, the game might not take place in one place instead of all over the world? Even if all over the world like Fable we can purchase a residence at various locations where our spouse can live with us. It would also be nice to include various ideas for home decor due to the genre so players could say choose, steampunk, technoasian aka otaku, or cyberpunk, without being boxed in to one style. I think having a few choices is doable games did this going back to Fable decades ago, so they can pull it off today with the right technology and stay on budget. Romance can be make or break for most gamers in gaming today so hoping that Deus Ex doesnt miss the chance to expand its universe crafting an icon of epic proportions.

Ugh

Shralla
18th Sep 2014, 19:16
Romance can be make or break for most gamers in gaming today so hoping that Deus Ex doesnt miss the chance to expand its universe crafting an icon of epic proportions.

Who are you to claim to speak for "most gamers," especially about something so completely irrelevant? So GTAV flopped because it didn't include romances? Call of Duty? The Last of Us? Far Cry 3? Any game that isn't made by Bioware?

At this point it's pretty clear that you're coming from the same place as HERESY and CoD_Ellite.

FrankCSIS
18th Sep 2014, 22:58
Psst... there were five (possibly even seven!) Also, four and five were both female, though I guess ultimately they were just as "blank slate" as the rest of the Half-Life player characters.

I swear I'm never bringing up Half Life again to talk about something else! So maybe there were ten. Maybe Mr Bison is a secret character you get to play, and no one's ever found out yet! Don't c-c-c-c-care! ;)

An entire bloody trilogy could easily be broken down into two POV stories, intertwining the two in a tasteful manner between the games, without over-referencing one another into some sort of tacky soap opera. But there's another reason I'm suggesting this, besides the novelty of it.

Within the production walls, a lead female is still always a hard sale. If your first game creates an intriguing cyberpunk universe, which promises to be extended in the following game, and if your female lead is introduced in the first game as an NPC people are interested in, it would possibly be a lot easier to conceive the idea without some middle-aged exec going "arrr something something female lead something something lower sales figures". Maybe. Of course from there on, their job would be not to botch it, but that's another issue altogether!

Shralla
18th Sep 2014, 23:22
So next game we play as Malik, who got herself augmented at some point. I'm okay with this.

Or we could play as Letitia.

FrankCSIS
18th Sep 2014, 23:45
Wellllllllll, I was going off the suggestion that Universe starts a whole new story arc which may or may not end up as a trilogy. "First game" is implied to be the first to come in the Universe series.

Not that Malik couldn't be turned into a lead, whether or not that was sarcastic (I really can never tell ;)). Seeing as HR was unlikely planned from the get-go to span into inter-related stories though, the whole thing may collapse in and on itself if HR serves as pivoting point of a larger story with multiple POVs. The idea, after all, is not to make a spin-off, but explore one complete mythology.

Shralla
19th Sep 2014, 00:57
It was mostly a joke. But your idea is fairly solid.

AdrianShephard
19th Sep 2014, 01:02
An entire bloody trilogy could easily be broken down into two POV stories, intertwining the two in a tasteful manner between the games, without over-referencing one another into some sort of tacky soap opera.

Like Half-Life 1 and its expansions.

Watch out for the paradoxes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xmzvfgHh-A), though.