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Driber
11th Jun 2014, 13:24
Women are weak, and therapy is for losers. Rise of the Tomb Raider is not about the true Lara Croft, it's about a weak women who is more concerned about her bloody emotions than she is about raiding tombs and kicking ass.

The above is a mantra that seems to be spreading around the web like wildfire just a mere few days after the release of the ROTTR E3 trailer where iconic female bad-ass Lara Croft is seen going through psychotherapy after having survived an ordeal that no real person would have even come out in one piece.

It never ceases to amaze me how judgmental we as a species can be and how many taboos and much prejudice is still alive today in our so-called 'civilized' society. Apparently psychotherapy is still seen as something scary, something that only desperate, weak people resort to.

Well if that were to be the case, then we sure seem to be having a hell of a lot weak and desperate people on this planet, because psychiatrists make a damn good living.

And the notion that therapy is just for women because they are too emotional, and that men are strong and don't need therapy unless a man is on the verge of shooting up his office colleagues, couldn't be further from the truth. Walk into any random group therapy and you'll be surprised how many men attend.

Am I starting to sound like your stereotypical man-hating 'tumblr feminist'? Well guess what - the argument that Lara shouldn't be portrayed as an "emotional woman" because it harms women because it confirms the stereotype of women being weak, and that "this would never be done with a male videogame character", is also completely ridiculous.

I think that if we all take a moment to get off our computers/tablets/smartphones and have real discussions with people, we might just discover that we know far more people who are going through some kind of therapy or have been in some point in their lives, or would go through therapy if they knew that it's not just for 'mental cases' and that therapy is actually beneficial for a wide range of issues, for men and women alike.

We also wouldn't be seeing nearly as many of these horrible shootings if we were all more open-minded and embracing professional therapy.

Now, I'm not claiming to be an expert here whatsoever. I am neither a therapist, nor have I been in therapy myself. But I do know people who have, and for issues far less severe than PTSD (http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-traumatic_stress_disorder), and it changed their life for the better. And no, they are not all crazies. Far from it.

I am grateful these professionals exist, and find it sad to still see people scoffing at therapy in this day of age. But I remain optimistic and look forward to the day when going to therapy will taken the same as normal as popping by your local bakery to buy a bread, or visiting your best friend to have a good heart-to-heart.

As for new Lara... don't worry, she kicked ass in the classics, she kicked ass in LAU, she kicked ass in TR9 and will continue to kick ass in Rise of the Tomb Raider http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_UCjmUtdKk5g/TNGUELbJLsI/AAAAAAAABCk/bsKpFPsPTk4/s1600/pistola.gif




/rant :p

Chocolate_shake
11th Jun 2014, 13:27
:worship:

Ellie92
11th Jun 2014, 13:31
I don't understand why those people always need to complain about everything, without even thinking??


If you don't mind, I'm going to quote some people here...

http://s1.directupload.net/images/140611/5rx8ktof.jpg
http://s7.directupload.net/images/140611/fjseaa89.jpg

And take a look at this article defending the trailer, written by a WOMAN!

http://hellmode.com/2014/06/09/in-defense-of-lara-crofts-humanity-how-a-trailer-changes-everything-if-gamers-let-it/

Tecstar70
11th Jun 2014, 13:35
Tim Berners Lee must be very happy that he has given these peoples lives, because they sure wouldn't have had one without the internet.

Chocolate_shake
11th Jun 2014, 13:38
Amazing article .

No matter how many times people try to tear down Lara , she stands up and says " YES ! STILL ALIVE ! "

d1n0_xD
11th Jun 2014, 13:51
http://s7.directupload.net/images/140611/fjseaa89.jpg

And take a look at this article defending the trailer, written by a WOMAN!

http://hellmode.com/2014/06/09/in-defense-of-lara-crofts-humanity-how-a-trailer-changes-everything-if-gamers-let-it/

All praise Rhianna Pratchet! :D And a wonderful article, made me have goosebumps, and it's so true :D And it's kinda sad how people are ready to attack something. I mean, Lara Croft is a monument of power, and back in the days, she was one of few badass women characters and that's what made her stand out. But people can't seem to get past that, ok, she's badass but times have changed, she wasn't real anymore, and if you're saying that her going to therapy is a stereotype, you're stereotyping by saying that women are only strong if nothing happens to them, if they are unscathed by anything. No, true strength comes with surviving and experiencing all that stuff, and living with those scars and memories. Excellent article, I only hope everyone reads it, maybe it'll give them a new perspective. Once again, all hail Rhianna!

Is there any way we can contact Rhianna as a community to tell her how awesome she is and that we're glad she's back on board with us? :D

Edit: I signal-boosted that article on my tumblr, hope more people will readi ti :)

Ellie92
11th Jun 2014, 13:59
Maybe you wanna read a WTF-article as well? :nut:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/219074/What_did_they_do_to_you_Our_women_heroes_problem.php

BridgetFisher
11th Jun 2014, 13:59
Im noticing the same thing in many discussions online. Many people feel that emotional development games are not very exciting to play. People prefer action games or adventure games usually. Mixing them just kind of makes it seem silly. Besides she cant be a victim when she ran around with machine guns killing hundreds of people. haha. I care about raiding tombs personally not about her emotional state. Its tomb raider, not PTSD raider.

I also dont feel the trailer is like from Rhianna, it doesnt seem to be creative, it feels more forced as if someone told someone what the situation is and she just wrote it up to work. The whole thing seems out of place for a writer who would create a story about someone playing the v card yet goes around killing everyone, it kinda doesnt make any sense unless someone told her to write it this way to try and make it edgy which is the feeling I get.

Tecstar70
11th Jun 2014, 14:03
Maybe you wanna read a bull**** article as well? :nut:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/219074/What_did_they_do_to_you_Our_women_heroes_problem.php

So rather than question the way male protagonists are represented they moan about Lara being vulnerable, which is actually more in context with her story.

Lara is in therapy BECAUSE of her story arc, not because shes female!!!

They should be asking why other male protagonist story arcs do not display a vulnerable aspect to their characters!

Unbelievable!

d1n0_xD
11th Jun 2014, 14:06
Maybe you wanna read a bull**** article as well? :nut:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/219074/What_did_they_do_to_you_Our_women_heroes_problem.php

That make me cringe, they're literally saying that the devs made killing people explained by the PTSD, and not like, actually defending yourself and trying to survive, not to mention they're bad guys. They're saying she has mental health problems and that's why she's killing them... OMG, I feel sorry for the poor people who believe that article :(

And one point is that female characters are mostly written my men, so they're forgetting that a woman is writing Lara's arc?

BridgetFisher
11th Jun 2014, 14:11
Alot of the poor responses to a new tomb raider might be the choice that what was shown was her in therapy, therapy and fun dont go together so all the negative responses to seeing a game showcase her in therapy should be expected. Its kind of like playing a police game then needing to do all the paperwork afterwards, leaves people disinterested.

Metalrocks
11th Jun 2014, 14:18
i dont take it seriously really. how many people complained about lara being scared for the last game? all i do is just shake my head and laugh in the end how ignorant some people are.
if others are dumb enough to believe in this article or feel like that this is a major issue, well let them. their loss.

d1n0_xD
11th Jun 2014, 14:19
@BridgetFisher - But they won't have to sit through therapy and listen to the guy for half an hour...

Tecstar70
11th Jun 2014, 14:21
Alot of the poor responses to a new tomb raider might be the choice that what was shown was her in therapy, therapy and fun dont go together so all the negative responses to seeing a game showcase her in therapy should be expected. Its kind of like playing a police game then needing to do all the paperwork afterwards, leaves people disinterested.

People have seen on short trailer and have somehow managed to review and critique the whole game. Probably the same people who would moan if a game didn't make sense or had no depth.


i dont take it seriously really. how many people complained about lara being scared for the last game? all i do is just shake my head and laugh in the end how ignorant some people are.
if others are dumb enough to believe in this article or feel like that this is a major issue, well let them. their loss.

^^^yep...

BridgetFisher
11th Jun 2014, 14:29
People have seen on short trailer and have somehow managed to review and critique the whole game. Probably the same people who would moan if a game didn't make sense or had no depth.

ya that is what people do though? They discuss what they see with games, they do the same thing with ME2 even though its so alpha but people still like to talk about it since their gamers? So for Tomb Raider everyone is talking about how the game revolves around her being in therapy since that is what trailers do usually, show what the general game is about, in this case therapy raider? haha I poke fun there but sadly that is what people will talk about online since the devs chose to focus the story around her being in therapy I guess, which isnt appealing to me as a gamer, I cant imagine its appealing to anyone, this is a game right? Its not some movie or a book about a mid life crisis...

Tecstar70
11th Jun 2014, 14:34
ya that is what people do though? They discuss what they see with games, they do the same thing with ME2 even though its so alpha but people still like to talk about it since their gamers? So for Tomb Raider everyone is talking about how the game revolves around her being in therapy since that is what trailers do usually, show what the general game is about, in this case therapy raider? haha I poke fun there but yea that is what people do online :P


You are right and that does go to show how short -sighted people can be. Its a TEASER trailer designed to build expectation, and in some ways it was geared to the fans who know the first game by the story as much as the gameplay, and who can relate to the character. I'm glad its not compulsory to attend some of the less intelligent area's of the internet!

d1n0_xD
11th Jun 2014, 14:38
ya that is what people do though? They discuss what they see with games, they do the same thing with ME2 even though its so alpha but people still like to talk about it since their gamers? So for Tomb Raider everyone is talking about how the game revolves around her being in therapy since that is what trailers do usually, show what the general game is about, in this case therapy raider? haha I poke fun there but sadly that is what people will talk about online since the devs chose to focus the story around her being in therapy I guess, which isnt appealing to me as a gamer, I cant imagine its appealing to anyone, this is a game right? Its not some movie or a book about a mid life crisis...

Yeah, but how come I didn't see it as devs focusing on her being in therapy, but rather showing that she "became who she was meant to be"? To me, therapy was a little trick to show us the real Lara :D I mean, how can't people see? The psychiatrist thinks he knows Lara, but he doesn't, he tells her to go out more, but doesn't know she is doing exactly that, in her own badass way. People focused on what shouldn't be a focus, and that's not the devs' fault.

BridgetFisher
11th Jun 2014, 14:59
Yeah, but how come I didn't see it as devs focusing on her being in therapy, but rather showing that she "became who she was meant to be"? To me, therapy was a little trick to show us the real Lara :D I mean, how can't people see? The psychiatrist thinks he knows Lara, but he doesn't, he tells her to go out more, but doesn't know she is doing exactly that, in her own badass way. People focused on what shouldn't be a focus, and that's not the devs' fault.

I think thats cause well not everyone played the last TR game or is a Lara Croft fan so only the fans would see it that way. In that aspect its a good fan trailer, a more general trailer to generate interest or appeal to a wider audience than just fans might have been better, hence the overall negative feedback from the gaming community about a tomb raider trailer showing a character in therapy. I think any game that showed a trailer like Tomb Raider with the focus on therapy or other non game related elements to playing a game would be received the same way. Even the alpha of Mirrors edge 2 showed combat, or phantom dust showed this in only a few seconds. Usually developers focus more on the gameplay elements or what the game is. In this case people see tomb raider as some game revolving around her in therapy since that is whats shown, so its kind of expected people focus on her being in therapy since well that is what the devs showed so its kinda their fault? I think if they made a fan trailer for the community or a press kit that would be good. Showing tomb raider in therapy as the big introduction to the next chapter to a general audience, yeaaaaaaa.... kinda saw that coming once I saw the trailer live at E3.

_Ninja_
11th Jun 2014, 15:02
I expected nothing less from the internet. Of course they will find some gender issue to complain about. It really would not matter what was in the trailer.

pirate1802
11th Jun 2014, 15:38
I bet a large percentage of these people were *****ing and moaning in the first game too, when Lara was 'weak'. At some point devs should stop considering these people and move ahead, make the game for people who actually appreciate the games, not look for things to cry about.


In this case people see tomb raider as some game revolving around her in therapy since that is whats shown, so its kind of expected people focus on her being in therapy since well that is what the devs showed so its kinda their fault?

I'm sorry to be blunt but if someone (not you Bridget :p) thinks just because the trailer showed Lara in a therapy that the whole game would be a therapy sim, then he probably dense beyond recognition. No wonder the devs didn't take that into account. How will they know there are people out there that stupid? Also they probably didn't get the memo that only weak and pathetic people go for therapies, yeaaaaaaah they totally have overestimated some fan's intelligence here.

U4 trailer was Nate standing around. I somehow doubt many people would assume the whole game consists of rotating the camera around a static Nate, lol.



And that's completely ignoring that it didn't even seem like she was into therapy on her own accord. She seemed disinterested, irritated and thinking the polar opposite of things he was suggesting.

Gitb97
11th Jun 2014, 15:38
Seeing Lara in therapy was incredible to be honest. I love how realistic of her that was and I don't feel like it was forced, it was actually neccessary. Please don't tell me you'd come from killing hundreds of men and nearly being killed yourself and remain completely sane and emotionally stable.

mark_79
11th Jun 2014, 15:44
Some people have too much time on their hands.

At the end of the day, they're arguing over pixels on a f***ing screen for Christ sake! :D

d1n0_xD
11th Jun 2014, 15:50
U4 trailer was Nate standing around. I somehow doubt many people would assume the whole game consists of rotating the camera around a static Nate, lol.

You, I like you :D

Valenka
11th Jun 2014, 16:28
http://s1.directupload.net/images/140611/5rx8ktof.jpg
http://s7.directupload.net/images/140611/fjseaa89.jpg

[/discussion]

Lycantendencies
11th Jun 2014, 16:52
As a male who's undergoing therapy for specific issues, I know first hand how many people still sadly see that as weak or presume all my mental faculties must be impaired and that I must be out of touch with reality, so this reaction doesn't surprise me.


To me, therapy was a little trick to show us the real Lara :D I mean, how can't people see? The psychiatrist thinks he knows Lara, but he doesn't, he tells her to go out more, but doesn't know she is doing exactly that, in her own badass way.
Exactly. All I saw was a therapist being used to show us that Lara has dealt with her experiences to some degree and instead of only looking back is now ready to move forward.

dark7angel
11th Jun 2014, 17:56
Unfortunately there's still a lot of prejudice regarding therapy so it doesn't surprise me that some less informed people are reacting this way to Lara undergoing psychotherapy.

Lalight
11th Jun 2014, 18:28
Why are people reacting this way? They either have nothing better to do, don't know what they are talking about, or they are just afraid that video games are becoming more realistic; because they can actually relate to the character ( not just relate to some characteristics of the character, but how they would react,or what they are going through, that type of things), which is something that I like. Don't get me wrong, I still like to play games where the character seems invincible and can do anything with no consequence whatsoever and admire their badassery, because it's something that I can't do in reality.

What CD is doing is somewhat new in video games (compared to other mediums), bringing the more human side of a character who was part of the super, nothing-affects-me-and-I-can-do-anything group (but being a bit more believable doesn't mean that they'll be less of a badass). And since it's a female character, of course there will be comments about "oh yeah, thats because she's a woman who are more emotional, that's why she needs help, or "that's sexist because this male character didn't need it," but like Rihanna said " Does a male character have to do it first before it's okay?"

This is just the debut trailer, I bet after more details are released and when they play the game, they will change their way of thinking. :)



And take a look at this article defending the trailer, written by a WOMAN!

http://hellmode.com/2014/06/09/in-defense-of-lara-crofts-humanity-how-a-trailer-changes-everything-if-gamers-let-it/

^ That article was point on!:worship:
Lara being in a therapist's office does not automatically imply that she is "weak." In fact, if she chose to get some help, then that, to me, is being strong enough to admit that she needs help to fight her demons. Even if she didn't choose to get some help on her own accord, she is still strong to me, because she is doing something to move forward and not being chained completely to the past.

And the last part of the article is what I really liked, when being compared to a "strong and infallible" character ,


In contrast, Lara Croft is a landmine of energy and strength. She cries, she fights, she stands up, and she doesn't just simply exist. She survives. She overcomes. She thrives in the face of adversity and she stands up to it .The best part? She takes us along with her on her journey—every step of the way. Through the pain and through the healing, she took us through it all during the first game and undoubtedly will continue to do the same in the second title.
[...] While it’s unfortunate a woman character had to be the first to go through such an evolution, it doesn't mean such an origin story is any less needed in video games. She doesn’t need to be as stoic as Nathan Drake to be as valid or as strong as him. The old Lara Croft who was little more than her physical appearance and two pistols doesn’t need to make a reappearance either.
Just because she’s the first video game character to show such humanity doesn't mean she’s a cookie-cutter female character that’s a victim of violence.
In fact, Lara Croft was always strong before the trauma–surviving her parents’ deaths just like Bruce Wayne survived his own. But now she’s even stronger with this reinvention of her past. She keeps taking the punches and she does more than roll with them. She fights back and always overcomes, just not without a few scrapes and bruises. Some emotional, some physical. Ultimately all that does is make her more real and easier to identify with.


Yeah, but how come I didn't see it as devs focusing on her being in therapy, but rather showing that she "became who she was meant to be"? To me, therapy was a little trick to show us the real Lara :D I mean, how can't people see? The psychiatrist thinks he knows Lara, but he doesn't, he tells her to go out more, but doesn't know she is doing exactly that, in her own badass way. People focused on what shouldn't be a focus, and that's not the devs' fault.


Seeing Lara in therapy was incredible to be honest. I love how realistic of her that was and I don't feel like it was forced, it was actually neccessary. Please don't tell me you'd come from killing hundreds of men and nearly being killed yourself and remain completely sane and emotionally stable.



Exactly. All I saw was a therapist being used to show us that Lara has dealt with her experiences to some degree and instead of only looking back is now ready to move forward.

I couldn't agree more! :thumb: :D

Driber
11th Jun 2014, 19:08
Why exactly is it "unfortunate a woman character had to be the first to go through such an evolution"? :scratch:

d1n0_xD
11th Jun 2014, 19:16
^ Yeah, at first I read that like you did, but then I realized that she's saying it's unfortunate because people reacted the way they did, and they wouldn't react if men did it first. Which I applaud, I like it that a female, and that female is Lara, did it first. But I view it as a poor choice of words, not as something she meant :)

_Ninja_
11th Jun 2014, 19:25
Why exactly is it "unfortunate a woman character had to be the first to go through such an evolution"? :scratch:

I guess because women can't lead they have to be shown the way by a man... The irony is thick there.

Anyway, just look at Halo 4 trailer and the way Master Chief is being examined and called broken. In fact much of the game's story is about that.

aMDe4lrJaRg

Psychomorph
11th Jun 2014, 20:39
People still don't get that Lara is not just a regular female, but a tomboy. These kind of women have additional powers to equal or surpass males (such that need therapy).

Tomboys don't need therapy.

RybatGrimes
11th Jun 2014, 20:56
Lol, if it was Nathan Drake in therapy people would be creaming themselves over how ~DEEP~ and ~REALISTIC~ and is and how ~DEVELOPED~ ND is making his character, ND would win developer of the universe, UC4 would get GOTY early and win every single award, Uncharted would be branded the greatest series ever known to man (because women are weak) and a gold statue of Nathan would be erected and everyone would worship it.

But Lara? In therapy? lmfao therapy sim what a weak character lol, emotions are gay where are my explosion because i can't concentrate anything else for more than 2 minutes. LOL MOUNTIAN DEW!!!1 DORITOS CoD!!!

d1n0_xD
11th Jun 2014, 21:16
^ Sad, but true.

Driber
11th Jun 2014, 21:22
^ Had me laughing, though :D

Valenka
11th Jun 2014, 21:25
Lol, if it was Nathan Drake in therapy people would be creaming themselves over how ~DEEP~ and ~REALISTIC~ and is and how ~DEVELOPED~ ND is making his character, ND would win developer of the universe, UC4 would get GOTY early and win every single award, Uncharted would be branded the greatest series ever known to man (because women are weak) and a gold statue of Nathan would be erected and everyone would worship it.

But Lara? In therapy? lmfao therapy sim what a weak character lol, emotions are gay where are my explosion because i can't concentrate anything else for more than 2 minutes. LOL MOUNTIAN DEW!!!1 DORITOS CoD!!!

Jesus, forgive me for using a GIF of Britney Spears, but it was the only one I could find decent enough to express my feelings toward this post:

http://media.giphy.com/media/v6iIoHZeYUtHy/giphy.gif

Well. Said. Sir. :thumb:

Psychomorph
11th Jun 2014, 22:02
Actually, Drake on couch, that's deep. Lara has been in therapy through entire TR2013, so no news.

_Ninja_
11th Jun 2014, 22:29
Just substitute Lara instead of Drake into Uncharted 4 and imagine the commentary.

"Look she's pleading with a male authority figure :thud: who calls her 'kid'" Sexist!
"She's lying down beaten on her face, it's a position of weakness" Sexist!

Can try this with another game...

Wh1t3Kn1te
11th Jun 2014, 23:41
It never ceases to amaze me how judgmental we as a species can be and how many taboos and much prejudice is still alive today in our so-called 'civilized' society. Apparently psychotherapy is still seen as something scary, something that only desperate, weak people resort to.

you are not the only one amazed by this, it seems this will not end well.





And the notion that therapy is just for women because they are too emotional, and that men are strong and don't need therapy unless a man is on the verge of shooting up his office colleagues, couldn't be further from the truth. Walk into any random group therapy and you'll be surprised how many men attend.

in some areas more men seek counseling than women. (i don't think a lot of people realize this.)


Am I starting to sound like your stereotypical man-hating 'tumblr feminist'? Well guess what - the argument that Lara shouldn't be portrayed as an "emotional woman" because it harms women because it confirms the stereotype of women being weak, and that "this would never be done with a male videogame character", is also completely ridiculous.

i actually like that they have her seeking help. the mental scars and damage that would be caused from what she went through is not healthy for one to deal with alone.




We also wouldn't be seeing nearly as many of these horrible shootings if we were all more open-minded and embracing professional therapy.

i completely agree with this.



I am grateful these professionals exist, and find it sad to still see people scoffing at therapy in this day of age. But I remain optimistic and look forward to the day when going to therapy will taken the same as normal as popping by your local bakery to buy a bread, or visiting your best friend to have a good heart-to-heart.


maybe this game will show people the benefits of therapy, and change the thoughts against seeking help.

Metalrocks
12th Jun 2014, 01:51
well said volts. well said :thumb:
well, im pretty sure CD will not get it in to them. its not like they have to defend them self this time for some controversy about lara being raped like we had 2 years ago.

RybatGrimes
12th Jun 2014, 01:58
well said volts. well said :thumb:
well, im pretty sure CD will not get it in to them. its not like they have to defend them self this time for some controversy about lara being raped like we had 2 years ago.

Oh gosh, what a mess that was. :hmm:

also, glad you guys liked my post. :p

Lalight
12th Jun 2014, 03:13
Lol, if it was Nathan Drake in therapy people would be creaming themselves over how ~DEEP~ and ~REALISTIC~ and is and how ~DEVELOPED~ ND is making his character, ND would win developer of the universe, UC4 would get GOTY early and win every single award, Uncharted would be branded the greatest series ever known to man (because women are weak) and a gold statue of Nathan would be erected and everyone would worship it.

But Lara? In therapy? lmfao therapy sim what a weak character lol, emotions are gay where are my explosion because i can't concentrate anything else for more than 2 minutes. LOL MOUNTIAN DEW!!!1 DORITOS CoD!!!

Exactly. :thumb:

Tihocan
12th Jun 2014, 03:50
... well, im pretty sure CD will not get it in to them. its not like they have to defend them self this time for some controversy about lara being raped like we had 2 years ago.

I was waiting for someone to mention this.
I hadn't seen mention of her therapy elsewhere. For me, it was a nice reality-gutpunch.

My question is, what should we be seeing otherwise? A sudden gun-toting superhero (well, that's shallow), or a Max Payne-esque Lara drinking herself into a stupor?

Mental health is a theme in many games and it seems not handling it with booze or violence is unacceptable. People are, for lack of a better word, stupid.

Edit: Good article, but I disagree that Drake had no emotional issues - his coping mechanism was humour.

Metalrocks
12th Jun 2014, 04:00
I was waiting for someone to mention this.
I hadn't seen mention of her therapy elsewhere. For me, it was a nice reality-gutpunch.

My question is, what should we be seeing otherwise? A sudden gun-toting superhero (well, that's shallow), or a Max Payne-esque Lara drinking herself into a stupor?

Mental health is a theme in many games and it seems not handling it with booze or violence is unacceptable. People are, for lack of a better word, stupid.

exactly. no shame in that.
if lara would just go along like nothing happened, this would feel out of place after we saw her how frightened she was on the island.

max payne on the other hand is a bit different. he is used to all the violence due his job as a cop. what just broke him was that he lost his loved once like his family and in part 2 mona and just feels like everything is his fault and is dealing with it in his own way by taking painkillers and drinking him self to death. he is broke and most likely cant afford a psychiatrist.
thats why i think lara just wanted help and moved to the manor and used her parents money to get treatment. after all, these guys arent cheap.

d1n0_xD
12th Jun 2014, 04:43
Edit: Good article, but I disagree that Drake had no emotional issues - his coping mechanism was humour.

Gotta agree with that, some say he's just a wise-cracking male protagonists, but he has a little more depth than that :)

But yeah, if he was in therapy, people would say it's deep and innovative, not sexist, weak or stereotypical...

pirate1802
12th Jun 2014, 04:57
People still don't get that Lara is not just a regular female, but a tomboy. These kind of women have additional powers to equal or surpass males (such that need therapy).

Tomboys don't need therapy.

Wait what?

Tihocan
12th Jun 2014, 05:16
Wait what?

It's totally true. They'll crush everyone under-foot, save the world and then sit down with a beer and Game of Thrones/Top Gear to relax.

IRON LOBSTER
12th Jun 2014, 10:53
'Spec Ops: The Line' handled the topic of PTSD incredibly well and was one of the most well-written games within the action genre of all time.

But no one played it because they'd rather play dude-bro shooters like COD and Battlefield and everything else involving a gruff WASP saving our freedom.

Let them fight their digital terrorists.


We have good games to play.


Note how Nathan Drake now looks all pensive in the new 'Uncharted 4: A Thief's End' trailer. #Bandwagon.

Valenka
12th Jun 2014, 13:06
But no one played it because they'd rather play dude-bro shooters like COD and Battlefield and everything else involving a gruff WASP saving our freedom.

Actually, I played Spec Ops and I found it to be a refreshing change from the obnoxious world of overcompensating gamers in the realm of Call of Duty and Battlefield.

pirate1802
12th Jun 2014, 13:23
Yep, I'm replaying Spec Ops The Line right now. Great game it is. Almost as good as the book it's based on.

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
12th Jun 2014, 13:42
What I don't quite understand is why she's in sudden need of a "therapy" in the first place.
She was solely responsible for the genocide on the island, she kept killing everyone in her sight without blinking an eye, the ending portrayed her as rather confident and eager to murder more, definitely not emotionally shaken or with some kind of remorse.

Makes no sense to me.

Tecstar70
12th Jun 2014, 13:47
What I don't quite understand is why she's in sudden need of a "therapy" in the first place.
She was solely responsible for the genocide on the island, she kept killing everyone in her sight without blinking an eye, the ending portrayed her as rather confident and eager to murder more, definitely not emotionally shaken or with some kind of remorse.

Makes no sense to me.

Traumatic experiences can take time to sink in and affect someones mentality. Lara is obviously a little way on from sitting on the deck of a ship sailing into the sunset,

_Ninja_
12th Jun 2014, 14:07
What I don't quite understand is why she's in sudden need of a "therapy" in the first place.
She was solely responsible for the genocide on the island, she kept killing everyone in her sight without blinking an eye, the ending portrayed her as rather confident and eager to murder more, definitely not emotionally shaken or with some kind of remorse.

Makes no sense to me.

That's exactly why it makes perfect sense.

She went to a dark place and when you try to go back to normal life that leaves you struggling to function where you don't need to fight for your life.

Metalrocks
12th Jun 2014, 15:02
That's exactly why it makes perfect sense.

She went to a dark place and when you try to go back to normal life that leaves you struggling to function where you don't need to fight for your life.

yep. its not like that after she is on the boat towards home that she will break down and have immediately PTSD. otherwise she would have had it already on the island and not being able to survive.

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
12th Jun 2014, 15:11
That's exactly why it makes perfect sense.

She went to a dark place and when you try to go back to normal life that leaves you struggling to function where you don't need to fight for your life.

Sounds logical, somewhat.
Soo... it seems she insists on bear escaping and shooting arrows in people's heads for the sake of letting off steam? ;)
No coming back to normal life for her, I suppose.

DamianGraham
12th Jun 2014, 16:39
A little late to jump in, but that's just the issue with society. Anything that is deemed different from the accepted "norms" are attacked and made fun of, even if one doesn't intentionally do it. These comments however, are uncalled for and really bigoted and ignorant. As a man, I can say that women are just as if not more capable than men, I know plenty of gals who work in the oil fields harder than any male coworker. There is a mob mentality on the internet, but rather than it be a good mob mentality (which does happen occasionally) its a bad one. There needs to be diversity like this in video games, I embraced that she was in therapy, it was honestly refreshing to me because to show that Lara has sought therapy is a testament to just how human she is (not literally obviously, but regardless). What "normal" person would go through the horrors she did on that island, and come back from it completely fine (in any sense of the word)? It's so laughable to me that people are always so quick to judge others for what they see fit to call "weaknesses" but avoid their own weakness altogether in doing so. Where has empathy gone? CD, I applaud you for exploring something that isn't the "norm" for action heroes. Just like I applauded NaughtyDog for their diversity in The Last of Us (which also got a lot of backlash if you haven't heard). I won't post spoilers, but it was quite refreshing what they did with the character of Ellie in her respective DLC, but of course, like I said... Anything that is "different" is automatically a target, and while it's human nature to fear what we don't understand, it is not human nature to be ignorant and stupid when commenting about it. Rather than try to understand and learn, we stick to our outdated viewpoints and never grow. See how far it'll get us. End rant.

DamianGraham
12th Jun 2014, 16:46
What I don't quite understand is why she's in sudden need of a "therapy" in the first place.
She was solely responsible for the genocide on the island, she kept killing everyone in her sight without blinking an eye, the ending portrayed her as rather confident and eager to murder more, definitely not emotionally shaken or with some kind of remorse.

Makes no sense to me.

So even if we take your comment and apply it, you don't think that someone as disturbed as you're painting her out to be wouldn't require some sort of therapy? Isn't there such a thing as PTSD? Fight or flight? Also, have you taken any psychology classes? Let me just paste this for you here...

The fight-or-flight response (also called the fight, flight, freeze, or fawn response [in PTSD], hyperarousal, or the acute stress response) is a physiological reaction that occurs in response to a perceived harmful event, attack, or threat to survival. It was first described by Walter Bradford Cannon.His theory states that animals react to threats with a general discharge of the sympathetic nervous system, priming the animal for fighting or fleeing. More specifically, the adrenal medulla produces a hormonal cascade that results in the secretion of catecholamines, especially norepinephrine and epinephrine.

she wasn't genocidal. She was in fight mode, and after all of that adrenaline wears off, the reality of everything hits and bam. Therapy for Ms. Croft...

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
12th Jun 2014, 17:55
she wasn't genocidal.

That's what the game's narrative wanted us to believe, sure, but the designers went full "Uncharted/Call of Duty" mode and "forgot" (?) to blend the gameplay and the story into a coherent whole.
What we got was some unintended comedy. Lara crying over a dead deer in one scene and blowing someone's head off with a shotgun in the other.

Tecstar70
12th Jun 2014, 17:56
^^^nice one. Totally agree.

RybatGrimes
12th Jun 2014, 19:52
What I don't quite understand is why she's in sudden need of a "therapy" in the first place.
She was solely responsible for the genocide on the island, she kept killing everyone in her sight without blinking an eye, the ending portrayed her as rather confident and eager to murder more, definitely not emotionally shaken or with some kind of remorse.

Makes no sense to me.

Uhh, did you not play the game at all? lol.

Lara didn't just outright start shooting people screaming "RUNN YOU BASTARDS. I'M COMING FOR YOU ALL!" She tried reasoning with them and was passive until she was pushed to her limit (by Vlad) and was with left other no other choice but to kill, which is something she didn't want to do. Lara wasn't responsible for the genocide, she never attacked anyone until Vlad pushed her and broke her. Everything that happened on the island completely went against everything Lara believed, and she was forced to change into a person that she's not. She's traumatised by all the horrible things she had to do and all the men she had to kill- all the people she had to kill to save herself and her friends. Lara was still in a dark place after they got picked up, that's why she's standing alone and not with the group, you can't just go back to being normal after all the things Lara went through. It was her only choice and it's clearly taken a toll on the state of her mind.

EDIT: lol realise I am late but whatevs. :p


That's what the game's narrative wanted us to believe, sure, but the designers went full "Uncharted/Call of Duty" mode and "forgot" (?) to blend the gameplay and the story into a coherent whole.
What we got was some unintended comedy. Lara crying over a dead deer in one scene and blowing someone's head off with a shotgun in the other.

I do agree with this somewhat, there definitely was a disconnect between cutscene Lara and gameplay, but that last part isn't exactly true though, she reluctantly killed the deer when she first got there, so she wouldn't starve, and she only started killing people after she was forced to by Vlad. Big difference there. That's when the can of worms was opened for Lara, never before that.

Wh1t3Kn1te
13th Jun 2014, 00:39
since this is on topic i wanted to post this to show the good outcomes of counseling, even if its from the most unlikely sources, and not entirely by professionals.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000357876/article/tyrann-mathieu-opens-up-about-thoughts-of-suicide

more people need to see that encouragement can do a lot to improve ones life. :)

Metalrocks
13th Jun 2014, 00:57
pretty much what the others just said above. lara was forced to defend her self which is a very natural reaction.
but even soldiers have these problems as well. even after years of training how to defend them self, being then in actual battle always changes someones personality. and in this case PTSD.

Scion's_Eye
13th Jun 2014, 02:26
Despite my clear annoyance of Lara having so many emotions, I saw the therapy in a way to build tension in the game. I don't think it will be a huge part, just maybe something to start with and then, just like in the trailer, Lara rebels against his advice and does what she wants anyway - then the gameplay starts.

Metalrocks
13th Jun 2014, 02:58
Despite my clear annoyance of Lara having so many emotions, I saw the therapy in a way to build tension in the game. I don't think it will be a huge part, just maybe something to start with and then, just like in the trailer, Lara rebels against his advice and does what she wants anyway - then the gameplay starts.

lol,a possibility. like "screw you, i still go out, risk my life to find hidden treasures and artifacts".

_Ninja_
13th Jun 2014, 09:36
Why would Lara be all "Screw you" if she's the one seeking advice? That's not rebellious, that's dumb.

Anyway I don't think the therapy will be a thing in the next game. All they wanted was to show Lara has changed.

Wh1t3Kn1te
13th Jun 2014, 11:11
i just had a thought, maybe the shrink helps her become the Lara that we all know and love. He helps her get through the dark times of her life and to see her true purpose, tomb raiding! :)

IvanaKC
13th Jun 2014, 12:01
i just had a thought, maybe the shrink helps her become the Lara that we all know and love. He helps her get through the dark times of her life and to see her true purpose, tomb raiding! :)


My thoughts exactly. :cool:


I wouldn't even know where to start if I had to kill so many people at once, see those who are close to me die in front of my eyes and fight for my life against supernatural creatures. First words that came to my mind: Nightmares, nightmares everywhere. So yeah, I would go and visit a shrink.

Chocolate_shake
13th Jun 2014, 12:28
Poor Lara. If she kills , she is a monster . If she does not kill , she is a wimp .

I just want to know ONE incident from TR9 where Lara sets out only to kill or kills any person who WAS NOT a threat to her life .

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
13th Jun 2014, 13:08
Poor Lara. If she kills , she is a monster . If she does not kill , she is a wimp .

I just want to know ONE incident from TR9 where Lara sets out only to kill or kills any person who WAS NOT a threat to her life .

It's the number of enemies that is the issue. The island was way, way, WAY overpopulated, it's as simple as that.
Take the original Tomb Raider (1996), for example - the enemies were few and far between (especially human ones), what mattered was the exploration, puzzle solving, the sense of wonder and discovery.
Fast forward to TR2013 - the game feels like a shooter with platforming elements and the puzzles are pretty much nowhere to be seen. Lara killed more people than in all of the previous games combined, it feels like sometimes.:D

That's where the "genocide" argument comes from - Crystal got their priorities wrong and as a result, the gameplay contradicted the story they tried to tell.

_Ninja_
13th Jun 2014, 13:30
I find no issue with the number of enemies or combat in Tomb Raider. Perfectly happy to make the obvious concession to gaminess. I don't care that it doesn't gel perfectly with the story anymore than I care about why people in a musicals start dancing and singing in a middle of a story for no logical reason. Exaggerating the gamey parts is just a part of being a game.

Sure I appreciate it in games that go for that "gameplay matches narrative perfectly" but I don't care when they choose another way.

As far as I'm concerned Lara develops into a killer perfectly naturally. She gets her initial shock of violence and then picks herself up and realizes she can go on and it actually can be frighteningly easy. Sure it's sped up and they give you unrealistically plenty to shoot at but so what.

Tecstar70
13th Jun 2014, 13:32
It's the number of enemies that is the issue. The island was way, way, WAY overpopulated, it's as simple as that.
Take the original Tomb Raider (1996), for example - the enemies were few and far between (especially human ones), what mattered was the exploration, puzzle solving, the sense of wonder and discovery.
Fast forward to TR2013 - the game feels like a shooter with platforming elements and the puzzles are pretty much nowhere to be seen. Lara killed more people than in all of the previous games combined, it feels like sometimes.:D

That's where the "genocide" argument comes from - Crystal got their priorities wrong and as a result, the gameplay contradicted the story they tried to tell.


It is a valid point to make, but also CD were also trying reboot a beloved franchise in today's gaming environment where a lot of games rely on action, thrills and drama. You could argue that CD were trying to find their feet with both old and new TR players in this new gaming environment and that with ROTTR they will be able to start to strike that important level of action, adventure and puzzle solving. Is it too high an expectation that they got it absolutely right with the first game?

Metalrocks
13th Jun 2014, 14:16
Why would Lara be all "Screw you" if she's the one seeking advice? That's not rebellious, that's dumb.

Anyway I don't think the therapy will be a thing in the next game. All they wanted was to show Lara has changed.

:lol:
chill out, i wasnt serious about it anyway.

Scion's_Eye
13th Jun 2014, 15:51
Why would Lara be all "Screw you" if she's the one seeking advice? That's not rebellious, that's dumb.

Anyway I don't think the therapy will be a thing in the next game. All they wanted was to show Lara has changed.

Maybe WINSTON is the one who forces her to do some therapy in the house :O

XylophoneDealers
13th Jun 2014, 17:25
Maybe WINSTON is the one who forces her to do some therapy in the house :O

Winston and Natla are behind her voyage to Yamatai. Winston was angry since Lara wanted to go in a new direction in life, so he ordered Himiko to crash the ship. Lara's therapist was Winston. Plot twist.

Weemanply109
13th Jun 2014, 17:45
Someone on NeoGaf pretty much got at me with a comment about how he misses when Lara was 'like Indiana Jones and wasn't a "girl" who needed therapy'. The trailer doesn't make her seem any less badass, imo.

People were like this when the "attempted rape" scene emerged during TR's marketing train, but when people played it, they shut their mouths. Let's see Lara Croft prove herself to these people. She's definitely not weak.

d1n0_xD
13th Jun 2014, 17:48
^ The sad thing is, she already did, and there's always gonna be naysayers :/

IvanaKC
13th Jun 2014, 21:47
It's the number of enemies that is the issue. The island was way, way, WAY overpopulated, it's as simple as that.
Take the original Tomb Raider (1996), for example - the enemies were few and far between (especially human ones), what mattered was the exploration, puzzle solving, the sense of wonder and discovery.
Fast forward to TR2013 - the game feels like a shooter with platforming elements and the puzzles are pretty much nowhere to be seen. Lara killed more people than in all of the previous games combined, it feels like sometimes.:D

That's where the "genocide" argument comes from - Crystal got their priorities wrong and as a result, the gameplay contradicted the story they tried to tell.


Wouldn't it be boring with a new shooting system with so little enemies to shoot? :rasp:

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
14th Jun 2014, 09:04
Wouldn't it be boring with a new shooting system with so little enemies to shoot? :rasp:

I don't think so, if anything, it would make each fight more impactful.
At some point in the game, I was like: "Sheesh, enough with the shooting galleries already, it's getting boring - one bang-bang sequence after another".

Notice that platforming and puzzle solving occur in the hub areas only, the "story missions" revolve around constant action and scripted, bombastic sequences. I wish there had been more variety.

IvanaKC
14th Jun 2014, 10:53
I don't think so, if anything, it would make each fight more impactful.
At some point in the game, I was like: "Sheesh, enough with the shooting galleries already, it's getting boring - one bang-bang sequence after another".

Notice that platforming and puzzle solving occur in the hub areas only, the "story missions" revolve around constant action and scripted, bombastic sequences. I wish there had been more variety.


Sarcasm aside, there couldn't be more variety because the game was obviously imagined as one big movie you're playing. Developers now have to make up for that and I'm on your side - I too want more puzzles and less human enemies.

Tecstar70
14th Jun 2014, 11:19
I think when people look back at TR2013, TROTTR, TR11, and TR12 they will see a full evolution of a character and hopefully then take ether games for what they are as their individual parts.

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
14th Jun 2014, 17:07
Sarcasm aside, there couldn't be more variety because the game was obviously imagined as one big movie you're playing. Developers now have to make up for that and I'm on your side - I too want more puzzles and less human enemies.

In the best (action, for example?) movies, there is actually a lot of "quiet" moments meant to build up the tension - constant, relentless action hardly ever leaves a lasting impression, you have to give the audience a bit of time to breathe.
Game design is actually very similar. I'm happy that you share my sentiments, crossing fingers we get some big, proper "tombs" with cool puzzles to solve.

Error96_
15th Jun 2014, 02:25
Women are weak, and therapy is for losers. Rise of the Tomb Raider is not about the true Lara Croft, it's about a weak women who is more concerned about her bloody emotions than she is about raiding tombs and kicking ass.

The above is a mantra that seems to be spreading around the web like wildfire

I think there is two issues with the therapy thing. First is how Lara has been pitched over the years. She was created in the girl power movement of the 90's as a rival to all the male characters out there. Even still you have all these mainstream male characters that are real hard-nut lead character heros but very few women. People really want a female equivalent so those female characters that do get there are kind of treasured more for that like say the cult following that Buffy the vampire slayer had. Anything that makes those characters seem weaker that the male counterpart is looked badly upon.

If you think why Lara became such a big cultural icon then you might think her looks but it's probably far more than that is the kind of kick-ass chick aspect. It can appeal to women that she has the confidence to compete with guys and win but I think for some guys that strong woman aspect ties in heavily with what makes Lara sexy. Therapy has this stigma as being seen as a sign of weakness, which could be seen to contradict with these aspects.



.. the ROTTR E3 trailer where iconic female bad-ass Lara Croft is seen going through psychotherapy after having survived an ordeal that no real person would have even come out in one piece.

The second aspect is context within Lara's story. In TR (2013) one of the aspects CD really wanted to sell was vulnerability in the new Lara and fragility to make her more human (e.g. the deer scene). You went through the first hub of the game and Lara was scared then in the temple she has to kill another human. She is emotional but then within a few minutes she becomes a killing machine and ends up racking up an absolutely massive death toll breaking in to enemy locations and leaving nobody alive. She acts more violently and kills more than in any previous TR and has all the sociopathic tendencies back so anything CD said about a more vulnerable Lara is clearly gone. The level of action didn't fit with the story. For me I don't mind the therapy thing as I think she may try it but for Lara I don't think it will help her. Odds on this is a set up for a Lara gets to trust her therapist then they turn out to be evil storyline - to connect with her latter independence.

BridgetFisher
15th Jun 2014, 03:57
Wouldn't it be boring with a new shooting system with so little enemies to shoot? :rasp:

The endangered species list is real long so it offers tons of enemies for Lara to kill, from white tigers to crazed panda bears in the orient or abominable snowmen, even bigfoot's. Everything Lara does used to be exotic but the enemies are all more normal now, which for me felt sorta boring. But if that is the direction to go in with normal things, then I am displeased in the lack of man eating venus fly traps.

Scion's_Eye
15th Jun 2014, 04:40
In the best (action, for example?) movies, there is actually a lot of "quiet" moments meant to build up the tension - constant, relentless action hardly ever leaves a lasting impression, you have to give the audience a bit of time to breathe.
Game design is actually very similar. I'm happy that you share my sentiments, crossing fingers we get some big, proper "tombs" with cool puzzles to solve.

Was that seriously their aim? *sigh* I mean I was a little annoyed when they started changing Lara's appearance after the movie... but now they actually tried to change it to a movie? How silly.
The lack of movie-style cinematics in the older games made it so much more exciting and less cliche.


But in light of all the inhuman enemy talk... I just looked up some of the enemy lists in the old games - TR9 has the least amount of enemy types in all the titles o___o Only about 8 types... while TRAoD has well over 20, and Legend beats it by offering 9 types of enemies, which I honestly didn't notice because of the good gameplay/puzzles/tombs.
Seriously, I'm even considering getting LCTOO because that Cobra King and Scarab boss made me reminisce on the old titles.


EDIT: Also just read up on the articles in the beginning of the thread. The one defending Lara. I wanted to get you guys' opinions on this quote: Just because she’s the first video game character to show such humanity doesn’t mean she’s a cookie-cutter female character that’s a victim of violence.

I laugh and cry on the inside because that's exactly what it does to a female character. It doesn't mean it, but that's the result. Why couldn't Lara just make an epic come back with the same tomb raiding and cool attitude like the previous ones? The game still would've made the top charts, and then maybe Lara could've earned the same sliver of respect as Samus from Metroid. Then a realistic, dare I say emotional, aspect could've been introduced to break these barriers. Just breaking social sigmas in a reboot right away is crushing the souls of veteran Tomb Raider gamers I think.

d1n0_xD
15th Jun 2014, 07:16
^ Regarding your last paragraph, I agree with the article, she isn't a cookie-cutter female character and she never was. The trailer was just a teaser, a result of the experiences of the island, it might as well be the last thing we see of it (therapy), IMO.

_Ninja_
15th Jun 2014, 08:48
I laugh and cry on the inside because that's exactly what it does to a female character. It doesn't mean it, but that's the result. Why couldn't Lara just make an epic come back with the same tomb raiding and cool attitude like the previous ones? The game still would've made the top charts, and then maybe Lara could've earned the same sliver of respect as Samus from Metroid. Then a realistic, dare I say emotional, aspect could've been introduced to break these barriers. Just breaking social sigmas in a reboot right away is crushing the souls of veteran Tomb Raider gamers I think.

I guess you missed the whole "Other M" thing.

http://www.twxxd.com/comics/2013-03-27-Comic%20205%20-%20Samus%20and%20Lara.jpg

Weemanply109
15th Jun 2014, 10:27
I don't think so, if anything, it would make each fight more impactful.
At some point in the game, I was like: "Sheesh, enough with the shooting galleries already, it's getting boring - one bang-bang sequence after another".

Notice that platforming and puzzle solving occur in the hub areas only, the "story missions" revolve around constant action and scripted, bombastic sequences. I wish there had been more variety.

Completely agree. I want to spend an entire story segment in a dark Tomb with nothing but the ambience and after a long while, suddenly you hear an enemy in the distance and then the threat of that enemy alone > a gang of generic islanders.

Driber
15th Jun 2014, 10:52
I think there is two issues with the therapy thing. First is how Lara has been pitched over the years. She was created in the girl power movement of the 90's as a rival to all the male characters out there. Even still you have all these mainstream male characters that are real hard-nut lead character heros but very few women. People really want a female equivalent so those female characters that do get there are kind of treasured more for that like say the cult following that Buffy the vampire slayer had. Anything that makes those characters seem weaker that the male counterpart is looked badly upon.

If you think why Lara became such a big cultural icon then you might think her looks but it's probably far more than that is the kind of kick-ass chick aspect. It can appeal to women that she has the confidence to compete with guys and win but I think for some guys that strong woman aspect ties in heavily with what makes Lara sexy. Therapy has this stigma as being seen as a sign of weakness, which could be seen to contradict with these aspects.

Hmm, I'm not so sure if it's that simple. If it would be merely a case of only hardcore fans who try to hold onto old, "teflon Lara" (I term I don't agree with, BTW, but it gets the message across) and who cannot handle seeing Lara in a vulnerable position (going through therapy) and therefore feel the need to mock her, then it probably wouldn't have been so wide spread in the media.

What seems to be the main fuel behind this is modern social media warfare, ignorance and prejudices about mental healthcare, combined with Anita Sarkeesian-esk "damsel in distress shaming" that people are mindlessly parroting due to a phenomena called herd mentality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_mentality). I doubt that without the connectivity of the modern internet and these other two factors this would have been a big deal at all.


The second aspect is context within Lara's story. In TR (2013) one of the aspects CD really wanted to sell was vulnerability in the new Lara and fragility to make her more human (e.g. the deer scene). You went through the first hub of the game and Lara was scared then in the temple she has to kill another human. She is emotional but then within a few minutes she becomes a killing machine and ends up racking up an absolutely massive death toll breaking in to enemy locations and leaving nobody alive. She acts more violently and kills more than in any previous TR and has all the sociopathic tendencies back so anything CD said about a more vulnerable Lara is clearly gone. The level of action didn't fit with the story. For me I don't mind the therapy thing as I think she may try it but for Lara I don't think it will help her. Odds on this is a set up for a Lara gets to trust her therapist then they turn out to be evil storyline - to connect with her latter independence.

You're probably right that Lara needed to be "broken down" further in order to sell the "human Lara" (another term I disagree with, BTW, as it implies that old Lara was not human (she wasn't - she still had emotions just like you and me; she just choose to not show them to others for all the time ;))) but that was kind of inevitable, wasn't it?

I also don't entirely agree with the thought that some people have of TR9 Lara that at the end she's back to being a "full hardcore old Lara". I think one important thing we have to keep in mind is that the time to tell the origin story is limited within 1 single game. So the progression of the inexperienced Lara that we see in the beginning of the game to the mass-murderer (but by no means a "teflon Lara") we see at the end of the game had to happen relatively quick because a videogame can't be a 1000 page novel where you'd have the luxury of really covering the nitty gritty of said progression.


EDIT: Also just read up on the articles in the beginning of the thread. The one defending Lara. I wanted to get you guys' opinions on this quote: Just because she’s the first video game character to show such humanity doesn’t mean she’s a cookie-cutter female character that’s a victim of violence.

I laugh and cry on the inside because that's exactly what it does to a female character. It doesn't mean it, but that's the result. Why couldn't Lara just make an epic come back with the same tomb raiding and cool attitude like the previous ones? The game still would've made the top charts, and then maybe Lara could've earned the same sliver of respect as Samus from Metroid. Then a realistic, dare I say emotional, aspect could've been introduced to break these barriers. Just breaking social sigmas in a reboot right away is crushing the souls of veteran Tomb Raider gamers I think.

Well, I am a veteran TR gamer and don't agree at all with this ridiculous Anita Sarkeesian-esk "damsel in distress shaming".

Yeah, if you want to get really down to it, Lara is the victim of violence. So is Sam, and much more so than Lara. So what? What's so horrible about having a videogame mirror things that actually happen in real life?

pirate1802
15th Jun 2014, 13:20
I guess you missed the whole "Other M" thing.

http://www.twxxd.com/comics/2013-03-27-Comic%20205%20-%20Samus%20and%20Lara.jpg

Lol ouch!

Andrashi
15th Jun 2014, 15:33
The above is a mantra that seems to be spreading around the web like wildfire just a mere few days after the release of the ROTTR E3 trailer where iconic female bad-ass Lara Croft is seen going through psychotherapy after having survived an ordeal that no real person would have even come out in one piece.Well, if she was protrayed as a human being in the first place, the trailer would have its impact.

However, I don't see any reason why should the indestructable swiftly self-regenerating terminator suffer any "mental issues" from shooting waves of human-shaped brainless ducks.

And since Ms. Prachett was kept for the story job, I personally expect this nonsense once again - insane terminator during gameplay scenes, decimating whole fortress of undead samurai warriors, but the second a cutscene hits I am ought to believe the restarted Lara is a "human" young lady and now in the trailer I am ought to believe she needs some psychiatric treatment? No way.

Driber
15th Jun 2014, 15:40
Well, if she was protrayed as a human being in the first place, the trailer would have its impact.

However, I don't see any reason why should the indestructable swiftly self-regenerating terminator suffer any "mental issues" from shooting waves of human-shaped brainless ducks.

And since Ms. Prachett was kept for the story job, I personally expect this nonsense once again - insane terminator during gameplay scenes, decimating whole fortress of undead samurai warriors, but the second a cutscene hits I am ought to believe the restarted Lara is a "human" young lady and now in the trailer I am ought to believe she needs some psychiatric treatment? No way.

I understand what you're trying to say, but keep in mind that you've only seen a 2 minute trailer so far, so the exact reasons why Lara is shown to be in therapy is still a point of speculation at this point.

Though the obvious link would indeed be the horrific ordeals on Yamatai, there could be also an entirely different reason for the therapy, as speculated here: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=145249

But let's assume for a second you're on the money with your assumption; how exactly would it be "nonsense"? It is perfectly realistic if you ask me. Why do you think it isn't? Just because of the timing? If that's the case, I have to refer back to my earlier statement that a videogame cannot be a 1000 page novel where you have the luxury of covering the real nitty gritty of Lara's progression.

Andrashi
15th Jun 2014, 15:49
According to you it is perfectly realistic for a young human female (with no prior high knowledge of machinery) to be able to accurately operate all kind of weaponry, perfrom "upgrades" a.k.a. magically shapeshift one type of weapon into another (even changing calibers) and be able to overcome insane outnumbered ambushes?

If the answer is yes, this debate is done and I strongly encourage you to try an airsoft shootout with TWO or THREE enemies who act like human beings and not like brainless shooting range ducks and who set an ambush (not stand in the open field waiting for you to shoot them one by one). Ingame, Lara faces not two or three, but dozens.

d1n0_xD
15th Jun 2014, 15:50
@Driber And basically, the "story isn't in-sync with gameplay" thing everyone's trying to convey is just an hour or maybe two long, and then she accepts what must be done and is pretty much determined to do whatever it takes to get off the island/save Sam, so it's very much believable.

@Andrashi, for her to "learn" to operate weaponry would turn the game into a simulator... A handgun is pretty much straight-forward to use, point and shoot, and she could've learned from Conrad. Ok, maybe performing upgrades is not very believable, but it's a video game and a cool feature to make new weapons and show her survival. Though maybe they should've added blueprints or sth like that so we know how Lara knows how to make things from scrap.

Scion's_Eye
15th Jun 2014, 15:52
I guess you missed the whole "Other M" thing.


Hahah, damn I always push that one out of memory. But majority of people don't really regard it as a title and Samus still has her dignity as a character.



And since Ms. Prachett was kept for the story job, I personally expect this nonsense once again - insane terminator during gameplay scenes, decimating whole fortress of undead samurai warriors, but the second a cutscene hits I am ought to believe the restarted Lara is a "human" young lady and now in the trailer I am ought to believe she needs some psychiatric treatment? No way.

*sigh* Me too, unfortunately. It seems like Lara has just come in the way of all this new-wave feminist BS.
But as many people have mentioned before, it's simply a teaser. I'm hoping the new title will flip all this mess on it's head and get back to what tomb raider is..... but with Pratchett going on and on how she had PTSD and wants to revolutionize video games with emotions, I'm expecting to be disappointed again.

d1n0_xD
15th Jun 2014, 16:09
And I wouldn't blame Rhianna for that "inconsistency", but rather lack of communication between the writer and the devs.

Driber
15th Jun 2014, 16:13
According to you it is perfectly realistic for a young human female (with no prior high knowledge of machinery) to be able to accurately operate all kind of weaponry, perfrom "upgrades" a.k.a. magically shapeshift one type of weapon into another (even changing calibers) and be able to overcome insane outnumbered ambushes?

If the answer is yes, this debate is done

My answer is no.

So... what's your logical argument against therapy?

Driber
15th Jun 2014, 16:35
@Driber And basically, the "story isn't in-sync with gameplay" thing everyone's trying to convey is just an hour or maybe two long, and then she accepts what must be done and is pretty much determined to do whatever it takes to get off the island/save Sam, so it's very much believable.

I gotta say, this whole "story and gameplay don't align" complaint I just see as people being way too demanding of a videogame.

Yeah, I admit, there were some scenes where Lara was all emotional in a cutscene (for example the deer killing bit) and when the player regains controls you don't hear a peep out of Lara anymore until the next cutscene kicks in, and at times it did feel a bit weird.

But c'mon, it's a videogame FFS. No one in their right mind expects a videogame to be on par with Schindler's List. At the end of the day, you still have to balance story with an highly interactive game, that's simply the reality of it.

Like you said, TR isn't a sim. Nor does it pretend to be.


*sigh* Me too, unfortunately. It seems like Lara has just come in the way of all this new-wave feminist BS.
But as many people have mentioned before, it's simply a teaser. I'm hoping the new title will flip all this mess on it's head and get back to what tomb raider is..... but with Pratchett going on and on how she had PTSD and wants to revolutionize video games with emotions, I'm expecting to be disappointed again.

Explain to me how exactly do emotions and psychotherapy have anything to do with "new-wave feminist BS"?

I'll have you know that the inventor of psychotherapy, started it in the 1880'ies :p

AND he was heavily criticised by feminists :p

And to top it all off - how on earth did you miss the news that these "new-wave feminist" you speak of are actually condemning the trailer en masse? Have you not been reading my OP at all? :p

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
15th Jun 2014, 18:29
But c'mon, it's a videogame FFS. No one in their right mind expects a videogame to be on par with Schindler's List. At the end of the day, you still have to balance story with an highly interactive game, that's simply the reality of it.


Which begs the question: why? When it comes to emotional impact, certain games like Planescape Torment managed to be something special (this thing is on par with good books and movies, it's THAT well written with truly memorable characters).
TR 2013 tried a lot of techniques reserved to the movie industry (well known actors, camera movement, dramatic cutscenes), so why not deliver a solid script on top of it all? Evidently, Crystal wanted to go big and bring a movie-like experience.

By the way, concerning the "story and gameplay don't mix well" sentence - even in gameplay terms, it could have been handled better, so the argument along the lines of "it's just a game" is not an excuse.
Crystal merely needed to understand that games don't have to revolve around SHOOTING to be FUN. They could have easily stretched the time between the deer scene and giving the player a gun and fill it with some proper character development, puzzle solving, exposition, whatever. They decided to go the easy way, hence the complaints.

Gabriel Knight is also a video game. You don't shoot things in it much. Yet it combines the gameplay and story very well.

Sanguis
15th Jun 2014, 18:56
There is nothing wrong with therapy. I am in therapy. It only makes you stronger.

Driber
15th Jun 2014, 23:28
Which begs the question: why? When it comes to emotional impact, certain games like Planescape Torment managed to be something special (this thing is on par with good books and movies, it's THAT well written with truly memorable characters).
TR 2013 tried a lot of techniques reserved to the movie industry (well known actors, camera movement, dramatic cutscenes), so why not deliver a solid script on top of it all? Evidently, Crystal wanted to go big and bring a movie-like experience.

I will simply refer you to my responses to your comments about the story in the several other threads where it's already being discussed. We don't need to start yet another fragmented discussion about it here in a thread about the therapy subject.


By the way, concerning the "story and gameplay don't mix well" sentence - even in gameplay terms, it could have been handled better, so the argument along the lines of "it's just a game" is not an excuse.

It's not an excuse, it's a reason.


They could have easily stretched the time between the deer scene and giving the player a gun and fill it with some proper character development, puzzle solving, exposition, whatever. They decided to go the easy way, hence the complaints.

The character development could have been better, yes, but it wasn't bad.

And certainly not warranted the complaints about Lara in therapy.

Valenka
15th Jun 2014, 23:55
I gotta say, this whole "story and gameplay don't align" complaint I just see as people being way too demanding of a videogame.

Yeah, I admit, there were some scenes where Lara was all emotional in a cutscene (for example the deer killing bit) and when the player regains controls you don't hear a peep out of Lara anymore until the next cutscene kicks in, and at times it did feel a bit weird.

But c'mon, it's a videogame FFS. No one in their right mind expects a videogame to be on par with Schindler's List. At the end of the day, you still have to balance story with an highly interactive game, that's simply the reality of it.

Like you said, TR isn't a sim. Nor does it pretend to be.

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm afraid I'm not taking the "it's just a video game" excuse for an answer any more. It's 2014; we have a right to expect more in this day and age, especially when it comes to the little things. Like, I understand they have a game to develop and it needs to be enjoyable for all, etc. but there's really no excuse for things like that. To have Lara endure a traumatising event and then not really follow up with it. I mean, when Lara knelt before the deer and realised what she'd had to do, she was distraught. But after the cutscene it was, "Right, back to camp! Follow the yellow brick road, just follow the yellow brick, follow the yellow brick, follow the yellow brick road!" And I'm like, "Well, damn, the girl can bounce back fast."

We could have had some dialogue along the way. "Right...back to camp. I can't believe I just did that, but--I--I have to eat. I have to survive...I...*sigh* I hope you can forgive me," or something to that effect.

But maybe that's just me. I don't know. :/

Rai
16th Jun 2014, 00:18
I'm too lazy to read through the entire thread so far, but has anyone thought that someone seeking out therapy actually shows a strength of character in them, one that they may not be aware of, recognise in themselves. I mean, if someone recognises they need help, that talking through their problems or whatever in the knowledge it's in complete confidentiality, that it could help, then it's the first step to recovery, and/or acceptance. So for the notion that going into therapy is somehow 'weak' it's laughable, imo. Whether for a man or a woman.

With Lara, she's clearly agitated and her mind is elsewhere. She can hear the therapist, but is she really listening? She's clearly lied about the flashbacks stopping and she's also thinking about this incident with the bear on another adventure. She's accepted that going on adventures and facing danger is doing more for her than the therapy. It may well be that she initially took the step to therapy thinking it could help, considering what happened and all she witnessed and did along with the nightmares as depicted in the comics. But she also had the urge to continue adventuring and this now feels much more real to her than getting back into her old life at 'home', despite that the therapist believes she's cooping herself up at home. So while she may have thought therapy would help, even if it was just to talk it through, she clearly doesn't feel the same now after a few (or several?) sessions. She's on her way to becoming what she's meant to be...and presumably sod the consequences and trying to live a 'normal' life. Lara's found her own strength and is keen to get back to it.

Does anyone else think this therapy session is actually after the next adventure seeing as she's having flashbacks to the bear chase? I have my theory as to how that scene could play out if it is set afterwards and could play out at the end.

Tihocan
16th Jun 2014, 00:59
^ I like this response so very much


Does anyone else think this therapy session is actually after the next adventure seeing as she's having flashbacks to the bear chase?

I think it's more like the fun she's having in between.

Metalrocks
16th Jun 2014, 01:19
either the game starts with the sessions and decided to go on adventures after still being confused what she should do or she seeks therapy after her second adventure to uncover the secret of the she found on the island and we are just playing flashbacks when the therapist brings up certain themes that reminds her of her adventure, including the island.

thats something the trailer is not very clear about. its just enough to give us an indication what we can expect in the next title.

Murphdawg1
16th Jun 2014, 01:28
either the game starts with the sessions and decided to go on adventures after still being confused what she should do or she seeks therapy after her second adventure to uncover the secret of the she found on the island and we are just playing flashbacks when the therapist brings up certain themes that reminds her of her adventure, including the island.

thats something the trailer is not very clear about. its just enough to give us an indication what we can expect in the next title.

I hope that isn't the case. I wasn't too fond of that in Battlefield 3, it's immersion breaking.

Metalrocks
16th Jun 2014, 01:43
I hope that isn't the case. I wasn't too fond of that in Battlefield 3, it's immersion breaking.

lol, BF3 is no example. the story was piss poor anyway and very forgettable.

and besides, we all know that lara survives :whistle:

Murphdawg1
16th Jun 2014, 01:47
lol, BF3 is no example. the story was piss poor anyway and very forgettable.

and besides, we all know that lara survives :whistle:

Sure but I would just rather not see the game play out that way.

Metalrocks
16th Jun 2014, 02:02
Sure but I would just rather not see the game play out that way.

im pretty open with that. still works for me but thats of course comes to preferences.

well, lets see how the final game turns out. or until CD gives us the information how the game is being played.

d1n0_xD
16th Jun 2014, 04:21
To have Lara endure a traumatising event and then not really follow up with it. I mean, when Lara knelt before the deer and realised what she'd had to do, she was distraught. But after the cutscene it was, "Right, back to camp! Follow the yellow brick road, just follow the yellow brick, follow the yellow brick, follow the yellow brick road!" And I'm like, "Well, damn, the girl can bounce back fast."

We could have had some dialogue along the way. "Right...back to camp. I can't believe I just did that, but--I--I have to eat. I have to survive...I...*sigh* I hope you can forgive me," or something to that effect.



Well, I don't think killing a deer is as disturbing as killing a human being... Yes, you can feel sorry and even sick since you have to gut it, but when it's done, man, I would've been outta there, feeling accomplished as well :D


I'm too lazy to read through the entire thread so far, but has anyone thought that someone seeking out therapy actually shows a strength of character in them, one that they may not be aware of, recognise in themselves. I mean, if someone recognises they need help, that talking through their problems or whatever in the knowledge it's in complete confidentiality, that it could help, then it's the first step to recovery, and/or acceptance. So for the notion that going into therapy is somehow 'weak' it's laughable, imo. Whether for a man or a woman.

With Lara, she's clearly agitated and her mind is elsewhere. She can hear the therapist, but is she really listening? She's clearly lied about the flashbacks stopping and she's also thinking about this incident with the bear on another adventure. She's accepted that going on adventures and facing danger is doing more for her than the therapy. It may well be that she initially took the step to therapy thinking it could help, considering what happened and all she witnessed and did along with the nightmares as depicted in the comics. But she also had the urge to continue adventuring and this now feels much more real to her than getting back into her old life at 'home', despite that the therapist believes she's cooping herself up at home. So while she may have thought therapy would help, even if it was just to talk it through, she clearly doesn't feel the same now after a few (or several?) sessions. She's on her way to becoming what she's meant to be...and presumably sod the consequences and trying to live a 'normal' life. Lara's found her own strength and is keen to get back to it.

Does anyone else think this therapy session is actually after the next adventure seeing as she's having flashbacks to the bear chase? I have my theory as to how that scene could play out if it is set afterwards and could play out at the end.

Yes, yes, yes! She thought it would help her, but "tomb raiding" is what helps her, facing danger, the adrenaline, feeling alive! I mean, she survived the island, she isn't dead, but in order to feel alive, she just has to do extraordinary things :D
And when you think about it, maybe when she came back, she was expected to do therapy (maybe Sam or other friends told her, or maybe it was just expected since yeah, she killed a lot of people, witnessed death and supernatural elements), so she did it, and she just felt that it isn't working and felt the need to go out there once again (the foot-tapping denotes this very well, IMO, because she's impatient, she doesn't want to be there, she wants to get over with the session so she could get back to what she wants to do).

I'm not really thinking it's after the next adventure, I don't even think they were flashbacks, they just had 2 scenes intertwined. One of Lara being in therapy and one of Lara facing an adventure and tomb raiding, which tells us what really helps her, especially since the dialogue goes like this:

Therapist: You should go out more, a girl your age shouldn't close herself in her home, bla bla
and then we see she was doing just that, but in her own, badass way :)

Andrashi
16th Jun 2014, 05:33
My answer is no.
So... what's your logical argument against therapy? Nice try to spin my objection into "argument against therapy", you can shake hands with Meagan and her Q&A question topic spinning. However I get it, your (and in the past her) job is to defend everything CD/SquareEnix develops and sells.

Once again - we have a fictional character, Lara Croft. This fictional character is a part of a product series (Tomb Raider) sold by some company. Company announces the character needs redesign. Company releases information about trying to make this character more "human-like" in terms of emotions and the overall game to be more realistic and with survival elements. Company delivers standard stereotypical cover-based 3rd person shooter, starring self-healing almost indestructable emotionless terminator during gameplay parts (because company desperatesly copies another company's highly successful product), terminator who simply flipswitches into emotional wreck crybaby in cutscene parts. Then flipswitches into terminator again, once player gets control. This terminator mows down unrealistic number of enemies (company announced more realism?) who behave as industry standard dumb shooting range ducks (company announced more realism?)

With this kind of portrayal of a said character, I am in high disbelief the character "restarted Lara Croft" is more human and storywise needs some sort of psychiatric treatment. Indestructable gaming terminator avatars are in my opinion far too unrealistic for such a delicate topic.

There is no objection against the topic of psychiatric therapy.
There is an objection against using the topic of therapy when talking about restarted Lara Croft. Well, unless the second game truly feels realistic, together with way more down to the earth gameplay parts and with believeable AI enemy characters. If the second restart installment manages to portray Lara as a human (not as a terminator) and enemies as human beings (not as industry standard dumb shooting range ducks with human 3D model), then there will be no issues from me about the game using the motives of therapy.

Metalrocks
16th Jun 2014, 06:07
i think we can all agree that she kills a lot people on the island, including solaris. but its also a game that had to had some action to keep it entertaining. so i can understand the view of CD as well since they wanted to attract new players as well. im happy either about it but i still enjoyed the game regardless.

the emotional parts should have been fleshed out more as well. i was also a bit confused why she was so sad about killing her first man, but afterwards she had no issue to shoot them. even when she cried out that they dont have to do this. at least some hold back of her before you could take control and shoot someone.

well, no game is perfect but CD knows now what they can fix and i do hope that at least the enemies have been cut back to make it a bit realistic.

Valenka
16th Jun 2014, 13:03
Well, I don't think killing a deer is as disturbing as killing a human being... Yes, you can feel sorry and even sick since you have to gut it, but when it's done, man, I would've been outta there, feeling accomplished as well :D

Well, that's you. I, personally, would not be comfortable killing any animal, even if I had to do it to survive. I would be distraught and disturbed at killing and gutting an animal. I would have gagged, thrown up, probably cried and it would have bothered me for awhile. That's how, in my opinion, Lara should have reacted.

Following that, killing a human being even in self defence should have bothered Lara more than it did. It really should have resulted in the original version, where Lara was trying to convince herself, saying "I had to do it, I had to do it." Upon realising that, it would have made a heap more sense as she's so easily able to kill the rest of them and then tell Roth, "It's scary just how easy it was."

As a matter of fact, allow me to bring forth a scene from one of my favourite television series, In Plain Sight. United States Marshal Mary Shannon gets kidnapped at the end of season one and kills one of her captors to escape. At the beginning of season two, she reflects on it and describes to her mother that blood has a sickeningly sweet smell for a moment when it sprays into the air. She tells her that it lined the inside of her nose and wouldn't go away. She then confesses, "I killed someone tonight, Mom." She begins to get sick and cries, "Oh Jesus!" and runs out of the room to the liquor cabinet, pours vodka into a glass and struggles and then takes several gulps from the bottle and cries.

Even as a US Marshal, someone who experiences trauma as death and danger regularly, Mary McCormack delivered an unparalleled performance as her character suffered from PTSD after what had happened to her. It was believable, it was realistic, it made me cry and my heart went out to her. I expected a more powerful scene than what we were given in TR9 and I am still disappointed with it.

Driber
16th Jun 2014, 13:17
I understand where you're coming from, but I'm afraid I'm not taking the "it's just a video game" excuse for an answer any more. It's 2014; we have a right to expect more in this day and age, especially when it comes to the little things. Like, I understand they have a game to develop and it needs to be enjoyable for all, etc. but there's really no excuse for things like that. To have Lara endure a traumatising event and then not really follow up with it. I mean, when Lara knelt before the deer and realised what she'd had to do, she was distraught. But after the cutscene it was, "Right, back to camp! Follow the yellow brick road, just follow the yellow brick, follow the yellow brick, follow the yellow brick road!" And I'm like, "Well, damn, the girl can bounce back fast."

We could have had some dialogue along the way. "Right...back to camp. I can't believe I just did that, but--I--I have to eat. I have to survive...I...*sigh* I hope you can forgive me," or something to that effect.

But maybe that's just me. I don't know. :/

I don't disagree with you there, and as I indicated earlier, I myself would have loved to see something like you just suggested to make the transitions more smooth. But at the same time I don't think that these little flaws are an excuse for people to overreact and be completely against the thought of Lara going through therapy. Would you not agree with that? Because that is context of the complaint how it was used here in this thread.

I have a question, though - do you think there were many of these moments in TR9? If so, can you name them like you did with the deer, and provide a suggestion of how it could have been improved? Or was the deer scene the only one that bothered you? :)

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
16th Jun 2014, 13:26
Following that, killing a human being even in self defence should have bothered Lara more than it did. It really should have resulted in the original version, where Lara was trying to convince herself, saying "I had to do it, I had to do it." Upon realising that, it would have made a heap more sense as she's so easily able to kill the rest of them and then tell Roth, "It's scary just how easy it was."


Yes, and the conversation with Roth that follows shortly after really makes me mad for that exact reason.
Lara exchanges a single line of dialogue with him over the radio and when they finally meet, the both behave like nothing happened. They're like robots. The cultists, the death they witnessed... it all becomes irrelevant all of a sudden. They both went through hell, Lara had a traumatising experience and Roth is like "oh hi, you're here, see that tower over there? You can do it, you're a Croft".
WHO TALKS LIKE THAT, after all they've been through?! I expected a bit longer conversation that wouldn't revolve solely around "this is your new quest dear player, now gogogo".
The game is full of "WTF" moments like that.

Driber
16th Jun 2014, 13:57
Nice try to spin my objection into "argument against therapy"

Perhaps you forgot what you even wrote yourself earlier.

How is...

"I don't see any reason why should the indestructable swiftly self-regenerating terminator suffer any "mental issues" from shooting waves of human-shaped brainless ducks.

And since Ms. Prachett was kept for the story job, I personally expect this nonsense once again - insane terminator during gameplay scenes, decimating whole fortress of undead samurai warriors, but the second a cutscene hits I am ought to believe the restarted Lara is a "human" young lady and now in the trailer I am ought to believe she needs some psychiatric treatment? No way."

~ Andrashi, post #89

...not an argument against Lara being in psychotherapy? I really fail to see this "spin" I'm supposedly doing. I think that any logically thinking person would naturally infer from your post that you have something against Lara being in therapy.


you can shake hands with Meagan and her Q&A question topic spinning. However I get it, your (and in the past her) job is to defend everything CD/SquareEnix develops and sells.

I won't even dignify this nonsense with a refutation. You go ahead and believe your conspiracy theories.


Once again - we have a fictional character, Lara Croft. This fictional character is a part of a product series (Tomb Raider) sold by some company. Company announces the character needs redesign. Company releases information about trying to make this character more "human-like" in terms of emotions and the overall game to be more realistic and with survival elements. Company delivers standard stereotypical cover-based 3rd person shooter, starring self-healing almost indestructable emotionless terminator during gameplay parts (because company desperatesly copies another company's highly successful product), terminator who simply flipswitches into emotional wreck crybaby in cutscene parts. Then flipswitches into terminator again, once player gets control. This terminator mows down unrealistic number of enemies (company announced more realism?) who behave as industry standard dumb shooting range ducks (company announced more realism?)

With this kind of portrayal of a said character, I am in high disbelief the character "restarted Lara Croft" is more human and storywise needs some sort of psychiatric treatment. Indestructable gaming terminator avatars are in my opinion far too unrealistic for such a delicate topic.

All I can say to this is that you seem to have taken the dev mantra of realism and ran with it, projecting whatever you wanted in the game onto said mantra, and when your (extremely high) expectations were not met, you throw the realism ball back into CD's court with all those crushed hopes attached to it.

Not really fair, IMHO.


There is no objection against the topic of psychiatric therapy.
There is an objection against using the topic of therapy when talking about restarted Lara Croft. Well, unless the second game truly feels realistic, together with way more down to the earth gameplay parts and with believeable AI enemy characters. If the second restart installment manages to portray Lara as a human (not as a terminator) and enemies as human beings (not as industry standard dumb shooting range ducks with human 3D model), then there will be no issues from me about the game using the motives of therapy.

I don't get how people can be this extremely judgemental about the notion of Lara being in therapy solely based on a bloody 2 minute trailer that barely shows anything at all. You have no information on the context of Lara being in therapy at all. You don't know why she's there, or what events lead up to it, and the comics are still only half way through the story.

It really seems to me that you're just strongly against the notion of Lara being anything but a terminator. I really can't place this knee-jerk to the trailer in the realm of reason whatsoever.

Driber
16th Jun 2014, 14:16
Well, that's you. I, personally, would not be comfortable killing any animal, even if I had to do it to survive. I would be distraught and disturbed at killing and gutting an animal. I would have gagged, thrown up, probably cried and it would have bothered me for awhile. That's how, in my opinion, Lara should have reacted.

How can you be so sure about how you yourself would react, though? When it comes to life and death situations, a lot of people react differently than how they pictured it in their heads.

That said, Lara is unmistakeably way more strong than your average person. And she was upset about killing that deer, wasn't she?


Following that, killing a human being even in self defence should have bothered Lara more than it did. It really should have resulted in the original version, where Lara was trying to convince herself, saying "I had to do it, I had to do it." Upon realising that, it would have made a heap more sense as she's so easily able to kill the rest of them and then tell Roth, "It's scary just how easy it was."

Are you referring to a deleted scene? If so, what did the devs say about why it didn't make it into the final game?


Yes, and the conversation with Roth that follows shortly after really makes me mad for that exact reason.
Lara exchanges a single line of dialogue with him over the radio and when they finally meet, the both behave like nothing happened. They're like robots. The cultists, the death they witnessed... it all becomes irrelevant all of a sudden. They both went through hell, Lara had a traumatising experience and Roth is like "oh hi, you're here, see that tower over there? You can do it, you're a Croft".
WHO TALKS LIKE THAT, after all they've been through?! I expected a bit longer conversation that wouldn't revolve solely around "this is your new quest dear player, now gogogo".
The game is full of "WTF" moments like that.

So the game had some moments where the player had to fill in the gaps himself. Is that such a horrible thing, and a justification for people to have such an extreme lash out against the therapy thing?

I don't think so.

d1n0_xD
16th Jun 2014, 15:01
Well, that's you. I, personally, would not be comfortable killing any animal, even if I had to do it to survive. I would be distraught and disturbed at killing and gutting an animal. I would have gagged, thrown up, probably cried and it would have bothered me for awhile. That's how, in my opinion, Lara should have reacted.

Yeah, but that's the point, not everyone is the same, different people have different reactions. And Lara is not your average bear, she's a Croft. And she was upset about it, but hey, you're hungry, you're cold, you just gotta shrug it off... Maybe she was even repressing that emotion because there were higher priorities at the moment, and maybe now it's all coming back. Like I said, different people react and deal with problems and emotions differently, some cry, some harden up, some go punch a baby... Just because you would be more upset, doesn't mean she has to... And let's face it, most people don't know how they'll react when it comes to death, whether someone died or they killed them... My grandpa died a few months back, and my whole family was crying, everyone just in tears, and I was just standing there, the only one not crying... And then a month later, I just remembered him and started crying like insane, it just hit me that he was gone... So, that's my point, Lara doesn't have to react like you nor like me, she would react how she would react, and that's the "beauty" of it...


Even as a US Marshal, someone who experiences trauma as death and danger regularly, Mary McCormack delivered an unparalleled performance as her character suffered from PTSD after what had happened to her. It was believable, it was realistic, it made me cry and my heart went out to her. I expected a more powerful scene than what we were given in TR9 and I am still disappointed with it.

Same thing goes with this argument :)

Driber
16th Jun 2014, 15:16
Sorry to hear about your grandfather, Dino :(

Metalrocks
16th Jun 2014, 15:24
Yeah, but that's the point, not everyone is the same, different people have different reactions. And Lara is not your average bear, she's a Croft. And she was upset about it, but hey, you're hungry, you're cold, you just gotta shrug it off... Maybe she was even repressing that emotion because there were higher priorities at the moment, and maybe now it's all coming back. Like I said, different people react and deal with problems and emotions differently, some cry, some harden up, some go punch a baby... Just because you would be more upset, doesn't mean she has to... And let's face it, most people don't know how they'll react when it comes to death, whether someone died or they killed them... My grandpa died a few months back, and my whole family was crying, everyone just in tears, and I was just standing there, the only one not crying... And then a month later, I just remembered him and started crying like insane, it just hit me that he was gone... So, that's my point, Lara doesn't have to react like you nor like me, she would react how she would react, and that's the "beauty" of it...



sorry about your loss

@topic
true. i personally have no issues what so ever to kill an animal. i went hunting with a friend and killed few kangaroos, rabbits and birds. we hung them up and drained their blood out so that nothing ends up in my friends 4x4.
at his place we gutted them out, chop them in to pieces. no problem what so ever for me.
hell i even shot a kangaroo that had even had a baby inside it. but before anyone goes crazy about it:
1. it was dark and we had a spotlight on.
2. it was still so young that it was hidden inside the pouch. no way in seeing that.

but you can relax. it was fine. it was a clean shot in the mothers chest. instant death. the baby was unharmed. my friend gave me 2 options (since he is an experienced hunter), since it was too young to hop by it self and never would survive.
1. kill it
2. he knew someone who looks after roos.

i took option 2.

i felt a bit shocked that i shot a mother with her kid inside but i knew that i cant change it and just accepted it.

the next day we went to that woman who has a farm with roos. she took it without any hesitation.

Valenka
16th Jun 2014, 18:54
I don't disagree with you there, and as I indicated earlier, I myself would have loved to see something like you just suggested to make the transitions more smooth. But at the same time I don't think that these little flaws are an excuse for people to overreact and be completely against the thought of Lara going through therapy. Would you not agree with that? Because that is context of the complaint how it was used here in this thread.

I would absolutely agree with you, there. Any complaints that I've seen on the forum about Lara in therapy for her PTSD were not even read. There is no justifiable excuse to believe someone would not need therapy after experiencing what Lara had experienced. Furthermore, to believe that therapy is for the weak or for losers is just insane. I was in therapy for quite some time and it took me four years to come to terms with what had happened to me. Therapy helped completely and it made me a stronger person. Anyone who says otherwise is just wrong, I'm afraid.


I have a question, though - do you think there were many of these moments in TR9? If so, can you name them like you did with the deer, and provide a suggestion of how it could have been improved? Or was the deer scene the only one that bothered you? :)

No, actually, those were the only two moments that bothered me: the scene with the deer and Lara's first kill. The subsequent emotional scenes - the deaths of Grimaldi, Roth and Alex were spot on, in my opinion.


How can you be so sure about how you yourself would react, though? When it comes to life and death situations, a lot of people react differently than how they pictured it in their heads.

Well, I know it sounds rather...presumptuous, but I like to think that I know myself quite well. If I were in Lara's shoes and was assaulted by Vladimir and I had no choice but to struggle with him over the gun and shoot him in the head, seeing part of his skull burst like that...I'm 100% certain I would have vomited, cried and convinced myself that I had to do it. Especially in an abrupt situation. Perhaps I would react differently should a life or death situation ever present itself - God forbid - but, I don't know, I feel strongly about predicting my would-be reaction.


Are you referring to a deleted scene? If so, what did the devs say about why it didn't make it into the final game?

Yes, I suppose it was a deleted scene, but I don't recall the developers releasing a statement about not including it. Here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXD6VRSrUxQ

The scene in question starts at 05:15 and you can spot some differences when compared to the final version: Lara attempts to bite the rope tying her hands together and after shooting Vladimir, says "Oh God! I had to do it! I had to do it!"


Yeah, but that's the point, not everyone is the same, different people have different reactions. And Lara is not your average bear, she's a Croft. And she was upset about it, but hey, you're hungry, you're cold, you just gotta shrug it off... Maybe she was even repressing that emotion because there were higher priorities at the moment, and maybe now it's all coming back. Like I said, different people react and deal with problems and emotions differently, some cry, some harden up, some go punch a baby... Just because you would be more upset, doesn't mean she has to... And let's face it, most people don't know how they'll react when it comes to death, whether someone died or they killed them... My grandpa died a few months back, and my whole family was crying, everyone just in tears, and I was just standing there, the only one not crying... And then a month later, I just remembered him and started crying like insane, it just hit me that he was gone... So, that's my point, Lara doesn't have to react like you nor like me, she would react how she would react, and that's the "beauty" of it...

I understand that she's a Croft and that makes her special, but I don't care if you're Pope John Paul III; if you killed someone for the first time, I don't know any normal person (and by normal I mean someone who isn't criminally insane, psychotic or sociopathic) who wouldn't react...well, dramatically. But taking your statement into consideration - my condolences about your grandfather - perhaps Lara's being in therapy and having flashbacks and nightmares is her way of finally coming to terms with what she'd done on the island. Maybe her reaction to killing Vladimir (amongst everything else) was momentarily suppressed and now it's all flooding back.

Similarly, when my great uncle passed on my birthday last year, I cried off and on, but it didn't fully hit me until the funeral and that's when I couldn't stand to be in the room. When Michael Jackson had passed, I never cried. It wasn't until a few months ago, five years after his passing, I finally watched 'This Is It' and just lost it. It didn't hit me until five years later.

An incredibly valid point you'd made, there, Dino. :)

RybatGrimes
16th Jun 2014, 18:58
^AH. WHY DIDN'T THEY LEAVE THAT IN! IT'S ALREADY SO MUCH BETTER. DANG IT CRYSTAL.

It really should have resulted in the original version, where Lara was trying to convince herself, saying "I had to do it, I had to do it." Upon realising that, it would have made a heap more sense as she's so easily able to kill the rest of them and then tell Roth, "It's scary just how easy it was."

I do agree with this bit, I wish they would have stretched it out a bit more, I wish we would've gotten more of Lara's thoughts after. I would have liked Lara say something instead of just "oH GOD." the whole scene was just a bit anti-climactic. Even if it was the same and when the gameplay started Lara said something like "I had to do it, it was either him or me. You had to do it Lara, you had to. There was no other way." it would've helped blend the gameplay and cutscene together more smoothly.

d1n0_xD
16th Jun 2014, 19:01
Sorry to hear about your grandfather, Dino :(

Thanks, I appreciate it. Thank you :)


I understand that she's a Croft and that makes her special, but I don't care if you're Pope John Paul III; if you killed someone for the first time, I don't know any normal person (and by normal I mean someone who isn't criminally insane, psychotic or sociopathic) who wouldn't react...well, dramatically. But taking your statement into consideration - my condolences about your grandfather - perhaps Lara's being in therapy and having flashbacks and nightmares is her way of finally coming to terms with what she'd done on the island. Maybe her reaction to killing Vladimir (amongst everything else) was momentarily suppressed and now it's all flooding back.

Similarly, when my great uncle passed on my birthday last year, I cried off and on, but it didn't fully hit me until the funeral and that's when I couldn't stand to be in the room. When Michael Jackson had passed, I never cried. It wasn't until a few months ago, five years after his passing, I finally watched 'This Is It' and just lost it. It didn't hit me until five years later.

An incredibly valid point you'd made, there, Dino. :)

Thank you too, you're very kind :) Yeah, about supressing your emotion, I made a post in a different thread - it's just that people sometimes don't want to remember traumatizing events, that's why I think her reaction wasn't "good", but when you think about it, it is great actually. She killed a man, felt a million emotions probably, but things were hectic, there were higher priorities, you can't just cry, you gotta act, so she put it into her subconsciousness in order to function properly, to save herself, and that's why I think she's in therapy now, those emotions can go crazy if not checked, because sooner or later, they get out...

Valenka
16th Jun 2014, 19:02
I do agree with this bit, I wish they would have stretched it out a bit more, I wish we would've gotten more of Lara's thoughts after. I would have liked Lara say something instead of just "oH GOD." the whole scene was just a bit anti-climactic. Even if it was the same and when the gameplay started Lara said something like "I had to do it, it was either him or me. You had to do it Lara, you had to. There was no other way." it would've helped blend the gameplay and cutscene together more smoothly.

Indeed! :thumb:

I mean, I understand that not everyone wants to hear Lara cry and groan about something the length of the game, but don't scurry the situation along for the sake of moving along with the story. It was truly disappointing to me to have so much hype and controversy and anxiety about witnessing the scene only for it to be so anticlimactic as it was. A huge let-down, in my opinion. It was common for Lara to have follow-up dialogue during gameplay following a cutscene in TR9; there was no reason for that moment to not have it either, just to blend the cutscene and the gameplay together, as you said.


Thank you too, you're very kind :) Yeah, about supressing your emotion, I made a post in a different thread - it's just that people sometimes don't want to remember traumatizing events, that's why I think her reaction wasn't "good", but when you think about it, it is great actually. She killed a man, felt a million emotions probably, but things were hectic, there were higher priorities, you can't just cry, you gotta act, so she put it into her subconsciousness in order to function properly, to save herself, and that's why I think she's in therapy now, those emotions can go crazy if not checked, because sooner or later, they get out...

Very true. :)
I just wish, for the sake of the experience, they didn't suppress it. The whole scene was made to be such a big deal and it turned out to be a tremendous disappointment, in my eyes. :(

Scion's_Eye
16th Jun 2014, 20:01
After giving it some more thought, I think what the problem was (and could potentially be) the way the emotions were handled in TR9. I mean after this thread I looked back at the LAU trilogy again and noticed lots of emotion that I never had to think twice about whether it was annoying or not.

I think it may have to do with the fact that Lara was pushed around so easily, as as someone mentioned, the transition of the emotions weren't smooth at all. I mean crying and vomiting because you kill your first guy then hop right into killing a dozen more no problem is a little strange when you think about it.
My point is, it's not anyone's issue with Lara going to a therapist, or having PTSD, or that she cries (even though I do want that gone personally) - it's the fact that those topics are being milked in order to get attention. Which defeats the whole purpose of putting it in there since now people look at it as a marketing tactic.

IvanaKC
16th Jun 2014, 20:26
The reason I see why emotions weren't so well handled is the whole game being short. I mean, we can't expect something spectacular to be pushed into so little time. They tried to make a good story, and I think they did a decent job, it's just that most of us played it like a marathon, all in one day and then it seemed rushed. Think about it, how boring would the game be if they stretched it. Yes, it would seem like Lara had enough time to recover from her first kill, but hey, it would seem like beating around the bush because we all would've known that she has to get up and kill more people if she wants to survive.
Besides, how would any of us react if 10 guys are trying to kill you and you've never killed a man before? You would have plenty of time to get over it if you survive, but in that moment, everyone would be aware of the fact that it's not time and place for breaking apart inside.

Driber
16th Jun 2014, 20:53
Alongside what Ivana just said, I would also like to bring a little thing called adrenaline into the discussion. When you're in a life or death situation, this survival hormone is instantly released by the brain and it kicks in very quickly and takes over control of the emotions a normal person in a normal situation would feel when merely witnessing the events unfold (which is exactly what the player does). So yes, while a few extra lines uttered by Lara may have helped the viewer to experience a more smooth transition, the mere absence of those few extra lines do not necessarily make Lara's emotions, nor her reactions, unrealistic, IMO.

As for the comment I read about anti-climaxic, I just can't help but wonder - is that really CD's fault, or could it maybe be our own fault, for allowing ourselves to let a mere trailer raise our expectations of Lara's first kill scene to a perhaps an unrealistic level where said expectations wouldn't be able to get fulfilled even IF CD kept those lines in the final version.....?

Valenka
16th Jun 2014, 21:00
Alongside what Ivana just said, I also would like to bring up a thing called adrenaline into the discussion. When you're in a life or death situation, this survival hormone takes over control of the emotions a normal person in a normal situation would feel when merely witnessing the events unfold (which is exactly what the player does). So yes, while a few extra lines uttered by Lara may have helped the viewer to experience a more smooth transition, the mere absence of those few extra lines do not necessarily make Lara's emotions nor her reactions unrealistic, IMO.

Good point, Driber. That also goes hand in hand with what Dino mentioned about emotional compartmentalisation and that those emotions that Lara would have experienced are now flooding back while she's in therapy.


As for the comment I read about anti-climaxic, I just can't help but wonder - is that really CD's fault, or could it maybe be our own fault, for allowing ourselves to let a mere trailer raise our expectations of Lara's first kill scene to a perhaps an unrealistic level.....?

I don't think it's anyone's fault, specifically. But to answer your question, I think it's 50/50; perhaps we shouldn't have let not just the trailer but the controversial discussion and hype surrounding the incident raise our expectations to a level (I wouldn't really call it unrealistic, though.) However, I think gamers have a right to expect more in this day and age, depending of course what they're expecting and if it's a reasonable expectation. But, to go back to what I said previously, despite the disappointment, that was only one out of two situations in the entire game and thankfully, they did not take away from the quality of the overall experience. It didn't stop me from loving TR9 and it certainly didn't stop me from playing it numerous times, purchasing it again when the Definitive Edition was released and then playing it another handful of times. :)

Driber
16th Jun 2014, 21:11
Good point, Driber. That also goes hand in hand with what Dino mentioned about emotional compartmentalisation and that those emotions that Lara would have experienced are now flooding back while she's in therapy.

Oh I agree. I think Dino's point about emotional compartmentalisation works very well to provide even more reason to view Lara's therapy as a perfectly logical result of the traumatizing events at Yamatai and how Lara dealt with those events at the time.


I don't think it's anyone's fault, specifically. But to answer your question, I think it's 50/50; perhaps we shouldn't have let not just the trailer but the controversial discussion and hype surrounding the incident raise our expectations to a level (I wouldn't really call it unrealistic, though.) However, I think gamers have a right to expect more in this day and age, depending of course what they're expecting and if it's a reasonable expectation. But, to go back to what I said previously, despite the disappointment, that was only one out of two situations in the entire game and thankfully, they did not take away from the quality of the overall experience. It didn't stop me from loving TR9 and it certainly didn't stop me from playing it numerous times, purchasing it again when the Definitive Edition was released and then playing it another handful of times. :)

Perhaps "unrealistic" was not the right words to use. Maybe I should've said "unachievable for this particular situation" :)

RybatGrimes
16th Jun 2014, 21:21
Lara's first kill was hugely played up by CD though, it was one of the main things they talked about at every convention for a while, if we have high expectations, it's because of how CD was talking about the scene, saying how pivotal it was for Lara and how important this scene was to the game and to Lara's arc. If we feel it's anticlimactic it's not our fault if someone was disappointed, it's CD's for making us think this scene was going to be so much more than it actually was.


But, to go back to what I said previously, despite the disappointment, that was only one out of two situations in the entire game and thankfully, they did not take away from the quality of the overall experience. It didn't stop me from loving TR9 and it certainly didn't stop me from playing it numerous times, purchasing it again when the Definitive Edition was released and then playing it another handful of times. :)

This completely. I do wish some things were different and I wish that there was more for that scene, but I still love it nonetheless, I think that scene overall is very iconic and it gets plenty of emotion for me.

Valenka
16th Jun 2014, 21:23
Oh I agree. I think Dino's point about emotional compartmentalisation works very well to provide even more reason to view Lara's therapy as a perfectly logical result of the traumatizing events at Yamatai and how Lara dealt with those events at the time.

Indeed. As much as I'd hate to admit it - as I never like to back-pedal on an opinion - but I've been forced to reassess my own standpoint here as both you and Dino offered quite the parallel to my original sentiments. I tip my hat to the both of you. :cool: I'll go ahead and give the development team the benefit of the doubt and assume that compartmentalisation was exactly what they did in TR9 instead of having Lara act as I described previously. :) Still, I really wish the whole "first kill" concept wasn't so...advertised, for lack of a better word, only for it to not truly play out as dramatically as we were led to believe.


Perhaps "unrealistic" was not the right words to use. Maybe I should've said "unachievable for this particular situation" :)

I knew what you meant. :p

IvanaKC
16th Jun 2014, 21:24
Good point, Driber. That also goes hand in hand with what Dino mentioned about emotional compartmentalisation and that those emotions that Lara would have experienced are now flooding back while she's in therapy.



Those are exact word I would use to describe situation. You don't know what trauma you have until you force yourself to remember and face past events. It goes perfectly well with what Diber said about adrenaline and I couldn't agree more. ;)

Valenka
16th Jun 2014, 21:34
Those are exact word I would use to describe situation. You don't know what trauma you have until you force yourself to remember and face past events. It goes perfectly well with what Diber said about adrenaline and I couldn't agree more. ;)

So it's settled then, we all agree. Someone pass the tea and biscuits. :p

dark7angel
16th Jun 2014, 21:38
So it's settled then, we all agree. Someone pass the tea and biscuits. :p

Here you go


:p

Driber
16th Jun 2014, 21:43
Heh, group hug, anyone? :D


Lara's first kill was hugely played up by CD though, it was one of the main things they talked about at every convention for a while, if we have high expectations, it's because of how CD was talking about the scene, saying how pivotal it was for Lara and how important this scene was to the game and to Lara's arc. If we feel it's anticlimactic it's not our fault if someone was disappointed, it's CD's for making us think this scene was going to be so much more than it actually was.

Well, I must say that due to me trying to avoid spoilers, I have not seen every single convention video during the TR9 promotion campaign, and while I had planned to go through them some time after finishing the game, I have not come around to do that yet, so I admit I'm partly flying blind here when it comes to the subject of how exactly CD promoted Lara's first kill scene and to what extend (wow, longest intro ever :nut:) but couldn't it perhaps be that people have kind of taken lines like "Lara's first kill really defines who she is" and "Lara will never be the same again after this scene" and twisted it into "the player will see an EPIC, GRAND, MAJOR SPECTACLE OF LARA'S FIRST KILL".......?

Valenka
16th Jun 2014, 21:47
Heh, group hug, anyone? :D

:group_hug:


Well, I must say that due to me trying to avoid spoilers, I have not seen every single convention video during the TR9 promotion campaign, and while I had planned to go through them some time after finishing the game, I have not come around to do that yet, so I admit I'm partly flying blind here when it comes to the subject of how exactly CD promoted Lara's first kill scene and to what extend (wow, longest intro ever :nut:) but couldn't it perhaps be that people have kind of taken lines like "Lara's first kill really defines who she is" and "Lara will never be the same again after this scene" and twisted it into "the player will see an EPIC, GRAND, MAJOR SPECTACLE OF LARA'S FIRST KILL".......?

Quite possible, methinks. I'd have to hop into a Tardis and check back a year and a half to be sure, but that's a fair assessment. :)

d1n0_xD
16th Jun 2014, 21:56
Indeed. As much as I'd hate to admit it - as I never like to back-pedal on an opinion - but I've been forced to reassess my own standpoint here as both you and Dino offered quite the parallel to my original sentiments. I tip my hat to the both of you. :cool:

Heh heh, I'm glad you like our assessment :) Imagine that happening on TRF, changing someone's mind, sheesh :p

dark7angel
16th Jun 2014, 22:07
After going through the discussion, I have to say that I agree that I would have preferred if that first kill scene had been handled differently. I personally think the scene needed a little more time to breathe, so to speak. Just a little pause before Lara picked herself up and went on shooting people.

But the possible explanations both Dino and Driber gave make a lot of sense and looking back, they help understand Lara's reactions a little better.

Valenka
16th Jun 2014, 22:32
Heh heh, I'm glad you like our assessment :) Imagine that happening on TRF, changing someone's mind, sheesh :p

Lol, it wouldn't even happen. We would have been bashed immensely for having a different opinion and then God forbid should we attempt to defend ourselves, get banned for "starting a flame war." :lol:


After going through the discussion, I have to say that I agree that I would have preferred if that first kill scene had been handled differently. I personally think the scene needed a little more time to breathe, so to speak. Just a little pause before Lara picked herself up and went on shooting people.

But the possible explanations both Dino and Driber gave make a lot of sense and looking back, they help understand Lara's reactions a little better.

:thumb::D
More agrees! Yay!

Error96_
17th Jun 2014, 00:46
Alongside what Ivana just said, I would also like to bring a little thing called adrenaline into the discussion. When you're in a life or death situation, this survival hormone is instantly released by the brain and it kicks in very quickly and takes over control of the emotions a normal person in a normal situation would feel when merely witnessing the events unfold (which is exactly what the player does).

I am not against the therapy bit so that's not why I'm saying this but there was quite a bad mistake in the writing after the first kill. Okay maybe the next few kills after the first are based on adrenaline but that doesn't explain why when she has got somewhere safe she decides to assault a military base head on and not even trying to sneak in. If it were the Lara from previous games no problem but it seemed to completely mismatch with the cutscenes in the first part of the game. It felt so much like CD had thought wow we have this amazing idea for a scene then put it in without properly connecting it with the arc of the game. Either a lesser reaction to the deer kill or a longer cool off period after the temple scenes would have made it flow better.

DamianGraham
17th Jun 2014, 02:42
I also wanted to just add the point for all of the nay-sayers... If y'all haven't been keeping up with the comics (WHICH WILL DIRECTLY LEAD INTO THE SEQUEL), maybe you should start to and do some reading before trumpeting your opinion on something you don't seem to clearly understand (and I say this in the most non-hostile tone possible). I don't know how to do a proper spoiler tag soooo don't read beyond this point if you aren't up to date yet

SPOILER ALERT!!

In the comics, I'm currently on Issue 4 (which was the most current one sold at my comic store), and in it, Sam has yet again been kidnapped by Solarii and taken back to the island, and Lara has YET again returned. Throughout the comics so far she keeps having reoccurring nightmares and visions because she is traumatized still. It's clearly affected her in very obvious ways. Maybe you guys should give them a read and did you ever stop to think that maybe... Just maybe, Sam is going to die and that is what pushes Lara over that edge into really seeking the therapy? Just a thought.. End of rant. Let me know your thoughts on the comics and if you've read them. They're really getting interesting and I can't wait to see if I'm right about it all, if so, that just makes it all the more understandable as to why she's in therapy more than ever.

Metalrocks
17th Jun 2014, 03:42
I also wanted to just add the point for all of the nay-sayers... If y'all haven't been keeping up with the comics (WHICH WILL DIRECTLY LEAD INTO THE SEQUEL), maybe you should start to and do some reading before trumpeting your opinion on something you don't seem to clearly understand (and I say this in the most non-hostile tone possible). I don't know how to do a proper spoiler tag soooo don't read beyond this point if you aren't up to date yet

SPOILER ALERT!!

In the comics, I'm currently on Issue 4 (which was the most current one sold at my comic store), and in it, Sam has yet again been kidnapped by Solarii and taken back to the island, and Lara has YET again returned. Throughout the comics so far she keeps having reoccurring nightmares and visions because she is traumatized still. It's clearly affected her in very obvious ways. Maybe you guys should give them a read and did you ever stop to think that maybe... Just maybe, Sam is going to die and that is what pushes Lara over that edge into really seeking the therapy? Just a thought.. End of rant. Let me know your thoughts on the comics and if you've read them. They're really getting interesting and I can't wait to see if I'm right about it all, if so, that just makes it all the more understandable as to why she's in therapy more than ever.

we do actually have this implication that she might die. in the speculation thread ;)
this certainly would be very understandable that she would seek treatment if sam dies. this would be so utterly shocking for her to see her die. a girl that means so much to her.
but as dino has stated, it can effect lara later on what has happened on the island and/or in the comics. regardless if sam dies or not.

Valenka
17th Jun 2014, 12:45
I also wanted to just add the point for all of the nay-sayers... If y'all haven't been keeping up with the comics (WHICH WILL DIRECTLY LEAD INTO THE SEQUEL), maybe you should start to and do some reading before trumpeting your opinion on something you don't seem to clearly understand (and I say this in the most non-hostile tone possible). I don't know how to do a proper spoiler tag soooo don't read beyond this point if you aren't up to date yet

Well, I think you ought to go back a page or two and read through the posts again - if you haven't already - and actually take note of what we were discussing. We were discussing Lara's traumas, behaviour and need for therapy in general; we weren't denying or acknowledging the admissibility of the context of the comic books. Yes, what happens in the comics leads up to the sequel and yes, the events of the comics are most likely what triggers what's sent Lara into therapy, but that's not exactly what we were talking about. I don't mean to be rude, but perhaps you should take into consideration other people's viewpoints and the surrounding theme before accusing anyone of not keeping up with plot development.


In the comics, I'm currently on Issue 4 (which was the most current one sold at my comic store), and in it, Sam has yet again been kidnapped by Solarii and taken back to the island, and Lara has YET again returned. Throughout the comics so far she keeps having reoccurring nightmares and visions because she is traumatized still. It's clearly affected her in very obvious ways. Maybe you guys should give them a read and did you ever stop to think that maybe... Just maybe, Sam is going to die and that is what pushes Lara over that edge into really seeking the therapy? Just a thought.. End of rant. Let me know your thoughts on the comics and if you've read them. They're really getting interesting and I can't wait to see if I'm right about it all, if so, that just makes it all the more understandable as to why she's in therapy more than ever.

Again, we were discussing Lara's traumas and behaviour generally. I'd like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and think that we've all either read the comics or at least detailed summaries in the event one doesn't have access to the comics. However, we do have a speculation thread here (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=145249) where this should have been posted. Like I said, we aren't denying the validity of the comics' context; we're just not talking about it right now. :)

For future reference, the spoiler tags are the blue [S] icon next to the YouTube button on the right above the text box when making a post.

Driber
17th Jun 2014, 13:07
^ Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that LaraRocks2's post was in support of our POV. He's addressing the nay-sayers; we're the yay-sayers, heh.


I am not against the therapy bit so that's not why I'm saying this but there was quite a bad mistake in the writing after the first kill. Okay maybe the next few kills after the first are based on adrenaline but that doesn't explain why when she has got somewhere safe she decides to assault a military base head on and not even trying to sneak in. If it were the Lara from previous games no problem but it seemed to completely mismatch with the cutscenes in the first part of the game. It felt so much like CD had thought wow we have this amazing idea for a scene then put it in without properly connecting it with the arc of the game. Either a lesser reaction to the deer kill or a longer cool off period after the temple scenes would have made it flow better.

Just so we're all on the same page, can you (or anyone else) maybe post a video that exactly shows this "rough transition" that you are describing?

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
17th Jun 2014, 14:43
SPOILER ALERT!!

In the comics, I'm currently on Issue 4 (which was the most current one sold at my comic store), and in it, Sam has yet again been kidnapped by Solarii and taken back to the island, and Lara has YET again returned.

Wha... Seriously?
That sounds so dumb, what the hell. :nut:

Bodes so well for the plot in the sequel, eh? :hmm:

d1n0_xD
17th Jun 2014, 15:05
^ I don't know, as long as she's not returning to Yamatai in the game, I'm all for backstory, we'll see how it all makes sense :)

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
17th Jun 2014, 15:21
^ I don't know, as long as she's not returning to Yamatai in the game, I'm all for backstory, we'll see how it all makes sense :)

I'm just... shocked. The problem with that is two-, no, threefold:
- The Solarii were interested in getting off the island at all costs, I can't imagine them finally leaving (which was their dream all along), wasting their time tracking Sam again for whatever reason, and bringing her back
- it feels oh so CHEAP. The island chapter was "done", making Lara return to the island kind of lessens the impact of TR2013's ending and undermines the whole purpose of Lara's adventure
- how many bloody times is that girl going to be kidnapped, this is laughable :lol:

The writers are already running out of interesting ideas, it definitely feels like it...

Driber
17th Jun 2014, 15:26
Please go ahead and keep on condemning the writers and nitpicking every plot turn to death, especially without actually reading the comics yourself, it will lessen the impact of your criticism and undermines people taking you seriously :p

Valenka
17th Jun 2014, 15:27
^ Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that LaraRocks2's post was in support of our POV. He's addressing the nay-sayers; we're the yay-sayers, heh.

Whoops. :whistle::o

DamianGraham
17th Jun 2014, 15:39
^ Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that LaraRocks2's post was in support of our POV. He's addressing the nay-sayers; we're the yay-sayers, heh.


Whoops. :whistle::o

:p Driber would be correct, I am in complete support with y'alls POV, (as I strongly voiced a few pages back) I tend to get slightly incoherent when I'm passionate about something :p my apologies. Bascially what I overall was saying is the original game's arc is still progressing through the comics, and honestly depending on how this plays out we still could have even more trauma for Lara to face (which like you said belongs in the speculation thread as well so my apologies for that), but people are only so quick to judge and make assumptions and act as though they would be tough as concrete in a similar life or death situation. It baffles my mind that they portray someone in a video game as human being, and it receives condemnation for it. I really hope CD ignores the hate and sticks to their resolve and continues in this direction, I really do love seeing Lara with emotions.

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
17th Jun 2014, 15:45
Please go ahead and keep on condemning the writers and nitpicking every plot turn to death, especially without actually reading the comics yourself, it will lessen the impact of your criticism and undermines people taking you seriously :p

I don't know, maybe I expected the writers to kind of come up with new ideas? Kind of "get the plot going"? Move on?
But sure, maybe we'll
return to the island
AGAIN in RoTR and
Sam will end up being kidnapped
AGAIN and
you'll still be here then, trying to convince everyone the story is not reaching the levels of bad fan fiction
AGAIN. :nut:

Driber
17th Jun 2014, 15:49
^ Doubt it ;)


I really hope CD ignores the hate and sticks to their resolve and continues in this direction, I really do love seeing Lara with emotions.

I wouldn't worry about that, I'm sure the devs know how to filter out the genuine criticism from between all the hate.

DamianGraham
17th Jun 2014, 15:52
I don't know, maybe I expected the writers to kind of come up with new ideas? Kind of "get the plot going"? Move on?
But sure, maybe we'll
return to the island
AGAIN in RoTR and
Sam will end up being kidnapped
AGAIN and
you'll still be here then, trying to convince everyone the story is not reaching the levels of bad fan fiction
AGAIN. :nut:

Yes but you must read the context that it is presented in the comics. The group that Kidnaps Sam again Also attempted to Kill off the remaining crew for stealing artifacts from the island initially. This new group just announced that they are NOT solarii, but do not worship the sun queen in the same sense either.

My apologies for sounding rude here, but you really should take the time and catch up/educate yourself on the plot before taking one small bit you read on a forum and run with that. The plot of the comics thusfar has been original, and to be completely fair and truthful, it is meant to be a continuation of the first game, and lead up into the second game. There is a story to tell, and I'm not sure why you think that it lacks in originality or creativity...

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
17th Jun 2014, 16:04
^ Doubt it ;)


Hmm...
Anyways, apparently the comic is pure trash and the story in it even more so:
http://fronttowardsgamer.com/2014/04/22/tomb-raider-3-review-comics/
http://fronttowardsgamer.com/2014/05/26/tomb-raider-4-review-comics/

That's all I wanted to know, thanks. Why am I not surprised. If that's the link meant to connect the two games together, then wow, are we in for a treat in the sequel. :mad2:

Driber
17th Jun 2014, 16:08
^ And thank you for confirming your confirmation bias.

Yeah... not taking any of your highly cynical opinions and uber judgemental attitude on the writing seriously anymore, henceforth. Sorry.


My apologies for sounding rude here, but you really should take the time and catch up/educate yourself on the plot before taking one small bit you read on a forum and run with that.

This.

DamianGraham
17th Jun 2014, 16:12
Hmm...
Anyways, apparently the comic is pure trash and the story in it even more so:
http://fronttowardsgamer.com/2014/04/22/tomb-raider-3-review-comics/
http://fronttowardsgamer.com/2014/05/26/tomb-raider-4-review-comics/

That's all I wanted to know, thanks. Why am I not surprised. If that's the link meant to connect the two games together, then wow, are we in for a treat in the sequel. :mad2:

Someone is either trolling... Or really just doesn't like the direction of the reboot for sentimental reasons, because honestly I like to judge based off of my own experiences, reading the comics is doing me just fine and I find the story compelling thusfar, as well as the story of the reboot as a whole. Obviously the second game will not focus on Yamatai, The comic issues 1-7 are events that happen AFTER Tomb Raider, and the following 8-12 will lead up directly to the sequel, co-written by Rhianna Pratchett. You can't just say it's trash because you read that somewhere... How about you think for yourself and read them, then make a decision. Also, judging the sequel's story at this point is silly, you know virtually nothing about it to say "are we in for a treat" I understand you're entitled to your opinions, but maybe you should form your opinions around fact rather than speculation and hearsay?

pirate1802
17th Jun 2014, 16:23
Now, I'm aware this might make me look (and probably does) like a gossipmongering *****, but considering the title I couldn't help not pondering over what I just read on ..ahem another TR site. :whistle:


No, she kills hundreds of people, has a freaking epiphany on the escape boat---all that is real, I'm so invigorated! All those myths could be real! I'm not going home!!!!---

and then goes home to therapy.

Seriously, do they even think when they write this crap? What was the whole point of that ending speech? They should have had an after the credits video of Lara winking: "JK, guys! I'm really going to be a mess again, so enjoy watching me do the same thing all over."

CD's motto: Mama, Trauma, Drama.

DamianGraham
17th Jun 2014, 16:27
Now, I'm aware this might make me look (and probably does) like a gossipmongering *****, but considering the title I couldn't help not pondering over what I just read on ..ahem another TR site. :whistle:

This quote is kinda dumb though, read through some of the initial comments in this thread and see that she was more than likely fueled by adrenaline, the human "flight-or-fight" response etc. And also, the comics are bridging a gap in the games, who the hell is to say something more traumatic doesn't happen in the interim like oh say: Sam dying, because as of right now she's been abducted again... I don't know what is so difficult for people to understand about the writing for the game, or the fact that she's human and probably suffers from PTSD in the comics, this is touched upon when she has a nightmare, wakes up and says "the nightmares are back again". also if you recall, she goes from being quite reluctant to kill and traumatized to full on survival mode... Why do you think they coined the tag "A survivor is born" for the first game?? Why doesn't anyone else put that together and understand? :mad2:

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
17th Jun 2014, 16:28
I like to judge based off of my own experiences, reading the comics is doing me just fine and I find the story compelling thusfar, as well as the story of the reboot as a whole.

If you liked the story in the reboot, then we had totally different expectations and will not come to an agreement. Sorry.


You can't just say it's trash because you read that somewhere... How about you think for yourself and read them, then make a decision.

I probably will, but reviews are there to help you decide whether a product is worth your money and time. Instead of merely saying that you "like it" (the reviewer did not), try to refute the arguments made?


Also, judging the sequel's story at this point is silly, you know virtually nothing about it to say "are we in for a treat" I understand you're entitled to your opinions, but maybe you should form your opinions around fact rather than speculation and hearsay?

I'll be the first to sing Crystal's praises if the story is good, believe you me.
Let's just say TR2013 did not convince me the writers are capable of delivering a plot and characters which do not offend TR fans' intelligence.

pirate1802
17th Jun 2014, 16:33
This quote is kinda dumb though, read through some of the initial comments in this thread and see that she was more than likely fueled by adrenaline, the human "flight-or-fight" response etc. And also, the comics are bridging a gap in the games, who the hell is to say something more traumatic doesn't happen in the interim like oh say: Sam dying, because as of right now she's been abducted again... I don't know what is so difficult for people to understand about the writing for the game, or the fact that she's human and probably suffers from PTSD in the comics, this is touched upon when she has a nightmare, wakes up and says "the nightmares are back again". also if you recall, she goes from being quite reluctant to kill and traumatized to full on survival mode... Why do you think they coined the tag "A survivor is born" for the first game?? Why doesn't anyone else put that together and understand? :mad2:

Never said I agree with the quoted thing. :)

DamianGraham
17th Jun 2014, 16:35
If you liked the story in the reboot, then we had totally different expectations and will not come to an agreement. Sorry

Sorry Indeed.


I probably will, but reviews are there to help you decide whether a product is worth your money and time. Instead of merely saying that you "like it", try to refute the arguments made?

I would if there were any substantial arguments presented. Instead of merely saying you "don't like it" try and give reasons that have substance and actual first-hand opinion guiding your disagreements, not the opinion of a critic whose job it is to critique (often poorly I might add, I've seen and played games and movies that got bad reviews and liked them for myself). Your validity is instantly lost in an argument if what you're using is just what you've read from other people. Opinions should be formed yourself, and if you haven't even read the comics how would you expect anyone to take you seriously?

DamianGraham
17th Jun 2014, 16:36
Never said I agree with the quoted thing. :)

I wasn't trying to sound like I was attacking you specifically :p that was more of a generalized rant to those that give unfair judgements without putting thought into what it is they're trying to refute. My apologies to you :flowers:

d1n0_xD
17th Jun 2014, 16:48
The reviewer didn't even play the game XD

Driber
17th Jun 2014, 17:11
Now, I'm aware this might make me look (and probably does) like a gossipmongering *****, but considering the title I couldn't help not pondering over what I just read on ..ahem another TR site. :whistle:


No, she kills hundreds of people, has a freaking epiphany on the escape boat---all that is real, I'm so invigorated! All those myths could be real! I'm not going home!!!!---

and then goes home to therapy.

Seriously, do they even think when they write this crap? What was the whole point of that ending speech? They should have had an after the credits video of Lara winking: "JK, guys! I'm really going to be a mess again, so enjoy watching me do the same thing all over."

CD's motto: Mama, Trauma, Drama.

Sounds like the same bunch of people who can't stand the sight of any emotion and won't accept anything but old "teflon Lara" and who think going through therapy is for the weak losers.

It's also funny that they only focus on the therapy bit of the trailer and seem to completely dismiss the other scenes. Are we not seeing Lara later on fighting with bears and scaling rocks like the bad-ass Lara we all know and love? Nooo..... let's just completely ignore that and just hate on a therapy scene without any kind of context whatsoever. Right.


I'll be the first to sing Crystal's praises if the story is good, believe you me.
Let's just say TR2013 did not convince me the writers are capable of delivering a plot and characters which do not offend TR fans' intelligence.

I kind of think what you are doing is insulting the fans' intelligence. One cannot help but get the feeling from your posts that anyone who actually likes the story are easy to please stupid idiots who just don't have any standards.

You see, it's one thing to share your opinions on the writing, constructively and with an open-mind. It's another thing to constantly mock and scoff at anything the writers put out, and instantly labelling it as "pure crap", "fanfic drivel", etc. even without reading it yourself, and to apply instant, crushing judgement while coming across as someone who would apparently write the world's greatest novels with one hand tied behind his back.

/my $0,02


Opinions should be formed yourself, and if you haven't even read the comics how would you expect anyone to take you seriously?

This.

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
17th Jun 2014, 17:22
I think what you are doing is insulting the fans' intelligence.

We're at the infamous "finger pointing" stage in the conversation, eh?


One cannot help but get the feeling from your posts that anyone who actually likes the story are stupid idiots who don't have any standards.

You see, it's one thing to share your opinions on the writing, constructively and with an open-mind. It's another thing to constantly mock and scoff at anything the writers put out, labelling it as "pure crap", "fanfic drivel", etc and to apply instant-judgement and coming across as someone who would apparently write the world's greatest novels with one hand tied behind his back.


I know it's your job to do some basic damage control Driber, but you really do not have to come up with excuses for someone else's work all the time.
OK, I'll change my tone, you have a point that I get a bit too emotional at times - but I stand by my words, TR2013's plot did have its (good) moments, but there were too many elements every sensible person would find embarassing (like the way the characters were portrayed, and it's not like I'm nitpicking here, it's simply that obvious).

Driber
17th Jun 2014, 17:29
I wasn't trying to point fingers, I was merely pointing out the irony of you saying that what CD is doing is "insulting the fans' intelligence".

And I don't know where you're getting the crazy idea from that it's my "job to do damage control", but you're way off there. Same with your baseless assumption that I'm a dev apologist. Dig through my post history and you'll find plenty of critical points on the games ;)

FYI, I couldn't care less if some people insist on hating on the game; it doesn't really affect me one way or the other. All I'm doing is voicing my personal opinions here. If I feel someone is unfairly criticising something, I will say it. Nothing to do with the company or the image of the franchise or whatever you're implying.

If you're planning on engaging me in equal debate, you'll have to learn to separate "Driber the forum member" and "Driber the admin". When I'm not doing moderator stuff, I'm just your average forum Joe, chiming in on the discussions.

Glad to hear you're open to changing the tone. For the record, you're under no obligation to do so, nor was I trying to force you to do so, but I do appreciate it... for the community's sake :)

I also appreciate that you're here to bring a critical voice to the discussions; if our forum would only consist of yay-sayers (not saying that would be the case without you, specifically), it would be a boring place, heh.


and it's not like I'm nitpicking here, it's simply that obvious

Agree to disagree.

d1n0_xD
17th Jun 2014, 17:30
It's also funny that they only focus on the therapy bit of the trailer and seem to completely dismiss the other scenes. Are we not seeing Lara later on fighting with bears and scaling rocks like the bad-ass Lara we all know and love? Nooo..... let's just completely ignore that and just hate on a therapy scene without any kind of context whatsoever. Right.

This. I can't help but compare that with Reader-Response Literary Theory where it states these rules when reading and interpreting a text:


1. Don't add anything to the text.
2. Don't ignore parts of the text.
3. Do not try to change the text, understand it.

My 2 cents :p

Tihocan
18th Jun 2014, 00:49
My face when reading this thread

http://i.imgur.com/QnvXNRf.gif

Seriously, people are going ape-snot over a theme for which:
- They have virtually zero context
- Has no great bearing on anything, unless she's sitting in that room for half the game, which I assume she's not
- Is in an announcement trailer

Please, stop. Just... stop.

Metalrocks
18th Jun 2014, 01:54
you know who i was thinking off who needed therapy after a horrific ordeal? who was also unprepared and survived?

this lady here :D
pngoxq_ellen_ripley.png
our famous fictional character "Ellen Ripley"

she went against the odds and survived against a horrific creature and suffered from it. which was shown in part 2 (best alien movie ever made) that she had nightmares and needed therapy. even when we dont see her having these sessions but at least it was mentioned.
and what did she do? she went along with the marines to face her fears. and boy did she kick some ass. :D:thumb:

thats what i see actually happening with lara. the same direction. lara thinks that she has to to face danger again to overcome her nightmares.

Scion's_Eye
18th Jun 2014, 03:59
^ oh please please PLEASE make it like that. I would die happy.

But what's this comic everyone is mentioning? Is it like the one you get with the game? Does it seem necessary to read to get a feel of TR9 better...and , most of all, is it free? :}

Metalrocks
18th Jun 2014, 04:06
^ oh please please PLEASE make it like that. I would die happy.

But what's this comic everyone is mentioning? Is it like the one you get with the game? Does it seem necessary to read to get a feel of TR9 better...and , most of all, is it free? :}

https://digital.darkhorse.com/profile/4260.tomb-raider-1/

4 have been released. the next one will come out next week. all together there will be 12 issues.

RybatGrimes
18th Jun 2014, 05:15
^ oh please please PLEASE make it like that. I would die happy.

But what's this comic everyone is mentioning? Is it like the one you get with the game? Does it seem necessary to read to get a feel of TR9 better...and , most of all, is it free? :}

There's also 2 story arcs, one in the first 6 issues, the second in the other 6. It's been said that the second story arc will lead straight to the sequel. So it's a little hard to say whether or not it's completely necessary to read them to understand the sequel, but I think they're definitely worth reading anyway. But there is a whole thread here (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=140674) dedicated to them, there's tons of info on everything in the OP. :D

Valenka
18th Jun 2014, 12:16
Anyways, apparently the comic is pure trash and the story in it even more so:

jmvdbn_batman_slaps_robin.jpg

Rai
18th Jun 2014, 13:04
you know who i was thinking off who needed therapy after a horrific ordeal? who was also unprepared and survived?

this lady here :D
pngoxq_ellen_ripley.png
our famous fictional character "Ellen Ripley"

she went against the odds and survived against a horrific creature and suffered from it. which was shown in part 2 (best alien movie ever made) that she had nightmares and needed therapy. even when we dont see her having these sessions but at least it was mentioned.
and what did she do? she went along with the marines to face her fears. and boy did she kick some ass. :D:thumb:

thats what i see actually happening with lara. the same direction. lara thinks that she has to to face danger again to overcome her nightmares.

Yes, I see this being the case for Lara too :thumb:

IRON LOBSTER
18th Jun 2014, 14:34
*Brofist for the Ripley parallel*

The comics are good.

ROTT is going to be awesome although fanfic writers are going to have a field day with the new title.

Also (in the wrong thread I know), bottom line, ROTT is going to look better than the DE on next gen and PC to compete with everything else out by the end of 2015, so what if old gen users get a not-so-good-looking version? None of it is going to hurt.

pirate1802
18th Jun 2014, 15:02
I wasn't trying to sound like I was attacking you specifically :p that was more of a generalized rant to those that give unfair judgements without putting thought into what it is they're trying to refute. My apologies to you :flowers:

Heh, (borrowing Driber's expression) none necessary! :flowers:

Driber
27th Jul 2014, 00:54
Perhaps more reasons to believe that TR10 is in fact not "heavy on PTSD", as some people assume(d). Rhianna herself implies that the therapy bit in the trailer may paint a wrong picture of the game's contents:

https://twitter.com/rhipratchett/status/493135886129709056

Twitter user: "I think the point is that [the TR10 trailer] doesn't accurately depict the direction of the game. That's my understanding."

Rhianna: "It sort of does, but it's hard to say too much without... you know, saying too much ;)"

ActionHero
27th Jul 2014, 04:57
For a while, I dated a guy who had PTSD. He served multiple tours in Iraq, and, upon returning home, would have entire days where he just sat on the floor staring at the wall but not seeing the wall. One day, he told me about how he was essentially encouraged to kill as many people as possible. How, after his first kill, he would shoot at anyone -- animals, children, adults -- and he didn't think twice until he was home and realized the full extent of what he had done and who he had become.

So, Lara moving from panic over killing Vladimir to "it's scary just how easy it was" makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. It's exactly what my ex said.


The thing is, we all view these things with a sense of morality, but we are not hardwired in our genetic code for morality. We're a species designed for hunting and survival. Put in Lara's position, most people would react the same way, and not stop to think about it until face-to-face with a society that says, "This totally base, primal response isn't how you're supposed to react to this situation." This is why people in those situations need therapy. You have to reconcile what you've done with who you always defined yourself as being. It doesn't make you weak, it makes you strong enough to realize there's a problem.

Metalrocks
27th Jul 2014, 11:01
obvious she cant say much at that stage. either things will be explained much later or when we finally have the game and see for out self how things turn out for lara. after all, we still dont know if the therapy is at the beginning of the game or after.

_Ninja_
27th Jul 2014, 11:43
you know who i was thinking off who needed therapy after a horrific ordeal? who was also unprepared and survived?

Sarah Connor as well. She was locked up.

d1n0_xD
27th Jul 2014, 11:52
For a while, I dated a guy who had PTSD. He served multiple tours in Iraq, and, upon returning home, would have entire days where he just sat on the floor staring at the wall but not seeing the wall. One day, he told me about how he was essentially encouraged to kill as many people as possible. How, after his first kill, he would shoot at anyone -- animals, children, adults -- and he didn't think twice until he was home and realized the full extent of what he had done and who he had become.

So, Lara moving from panic over killing Vladimir to "it's scary just how easy it was" makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. It's exactly what my ex said.


The thing is, we all view these things with a sense of morality, but we are not hardwired in our genetic code for morality. We're a species designed for hunting and survival. Put in Lara's position, most people would react the same way, and not stop to think about it until face-to-face with a society that says, "This totally base, primal response isn't how you're supposed to react to this situation." This is why people in those situations need therapy. You have to reconcile what you've done with who you always defined yourself as being. It doesn't make you weak, it makes you strong enough to realize there's a problem.

Wow, that is one hell of a story, chills ran down my spine :| Thanks for that input, lots of people need to know what PTSD can do, and what therapy does :)

Metalrocks
27th Jul 2014, 12:06
Sarah Connor as well. She was locked up.

true but she was forced to forget about the terminator that it was not real. so in other words, they tried to brainwash her.

ActionHero
27th Jul 2014, 17:13
Wow, that is one hell of a story, chills ran down my spine :| Thanks for that input, lots of people need to know what PTSD can do, and what therapy does :)

Yeah, therapy can be amazing. I think of it as a learning experience, like -- you learn to frame things in certain ways in your own head, and it allows you to get up the next day. People are amazing creatures, but sometimes our minds can start to get the best of us.

_Ninja_
27th Jul 2014, 19:44
true but she was forced to forget about the terminator that it was not real. so in other words, they tried to brainwash her.

Yeah but she had those psychiatrist scenes. There is even a scene where she tries to fake being "healed".

Same way people look at one scene from the TR trailer and assume just a bucket load of nonsense. Without seeing anything of the bigger picture and without any context. It's silly.

It's quiet likely this may not even happen or be brought up in the story at all and just serves to explore Lara's character.

Metalrocks
28th Jul 2014, 01:59
Yeah but she had those psychiatrist scenes. There is even a scene where she tries to fake being "healed".

Same way people look at one scene from the TR trailer and assume just a bucket load of nonsense. Without seeing anything of the bigger picture and without any context. It's silly.

It's quiet likely this may not even happen or be brought up in the story at all and just serves to explore Lara's character.

yeah, the trailer is not full in to details, so all we can do at this stage is speculate.

the thing is with connor that they tried to tell her otherwise, pretty much the same with ripley when i think of it. only that she didnt get locked up for it and we dont know if she actually wanted to be treated or they forced her too.

wile with lara (and im just judging from the trailer only) he didnt try to tell her that what she went through, was a hoax. only something in her head that does not exist.