PDA

View Full Version : How would you feel about a time cycle?



IDAFT
11th Jun 2014, 01:17
For the new Deus Ex, how would you guys feel about a Evening-Night cycle?

This may go against what makes a Cyberpunk game visually, but thinking about it, it could add scope for gameplay.
For instance, during the evening time where you would have been visible, at night that area could become darkspot to hide. Plus, visually it'll add variety.

CyberP
11th Jun 2014, 02:40
It would be Pro-Immersive Sim.
Conversely it would be anti-Deus Ex.

Stumped =/

It would be interesting that's for sure, and yeah would add a new layer of depth/variety to light-based stealth (if DX4 actually features it unlike HR. DX1's light based stealth was good enough).

Spyhopping
11th Jun 2014, 08:08
If they could pull it off with the same level of world detail and prevent the phases of night and day occurring every 10 minutes it'd be wonderful. With constant cycles I can only see the depth of the world suffering though. City hubs in DX tend to be a rich snapshot of what's going on in the city in a 2-3 hour window, and if you come back, the place is usually completely different.

It'd be great if they could phase a sunrise/sunset into the hours you spend in a city hub, rather than making it cycle every 10-20 minutes in an unrealistic way.

BridgetFisher
11th Jun 2014, 08:14
I like sunset and gritty kind of cycles for a cyberpunk game? Maybe like if it rained in the day but not like happy sunshine kind of day. I dont think that would work well but maybe there is a way to make it work with like smog or something like that? Sunrise and sunset would be very nice to see in a cyber style game. I just hope night doesnt mean everything turns pitch black, I hate that in games, alot of people work so hard make all those textures and even at night I wanna see them all.

ResidentX
11th Jun 2014, 15:52
NO, NO, NO....maybe later. The Original Deus Ex had that and I hated it. Weather/Daylight is good for some games but it can added complexity. Just get the game out, we don't need that level of immersion. This isn't an MMORPG.

WildcatPhoenix
11th Jun 2014, 16:04
NO, NO, NO....maybe later. The Original Deus Ex had that and I hated it.

What are you talking about? DX1 was completely at night.

ResidentX
11th Jun 2014, 16:20
What are you talking about? DX1 was completely at night.

Deus EX had an arrangement that in extra dark parts of the maps you had to shine light to see the objects or paths. It's reverse what you mentioned but it's the same technique.

Shralla
11th Jun 2014, 16:27
I don't even know what you're describing. Are you saying that it was too dark in the original Deus Ex? That doesn't have anything to do with a day/night cycle.

I'd rather not have one. Deus Ex isn't an open world game, and is also a game of some perceived urgency, which is communicated by you accomplishing all your tasks before the sun comes up, regardless of how long you the player took. If it were represented by an actual 24 hour day where one hour of play means one hour passes in game, then maybe. But still probably not.

ResidentX
11th Jun 2014, 16:30
I don't even know what you're describing. Are you saying that it was too dark in the original Deus Ex? That doesn't have anything to do with a day/night cycle.

I'd rather not have one. Deus Ex isn't an open world game, and is also a game of some perceived urgency, which is communicated by you accomplishing all your tasks before the sun comes up, regardless of how long you the player took. If it were represented by an actual 24 hour day where one hour of play means one hour passes in game, then maybe. But still probably not.

In the original comment, he/she mentioned that he wanted to add evening to add another dimension to the game. I assumed the value was that by adding another variable would make the game more challenging/interesting. In the Original Deus Ex, the user encounters "Dark" and "Darker" locations in the game. This makes the game more challenging because the user has to inspect those "darker" sections closer with light.

CyberP
11th Jun 2014, 16:55
In the original comment, he/she mentioned that he wanted to add evening to add another dimension to the game. I assumed the value was that by adding another variable would make the game more challenging/interesting. In the Original Deus Ex, the user encounters "Dark" and "Darker" locations in the game. This makes the game more challenging because the user has to inspect those "darker" sections closer with light.

Darkness is more your friend than your foe as it hides you from enemies quite well. If you are having trouble seeing turn the brightness up.

I have my brightness on 60 as it's still very dark in places but rarely pitch black.

ResidentX
11th Jun 2014, 16:57
Darkness is more your friend than your foe as it hides you from enemies quite well. If you are having trouble seeing turn the brightness up.

I have my brightness on 60 as it's still very dark in places but rarely pitch black.

You can hide in the dark in Deus Ex? I have never done that...can you hide in them to avoid robot scans?

My brightness is up to max but when I come across these areas, I can't see the goods so I have to shine a light to retrieve them.

CyberP
11th Jun 2014, 17:21
can you hide in them to avoid robot scans?

No. Light-based stealth only applies to human enemies and some animals. Some animals can even smell you (dogs), but If I remember correctly that code was incomplete.

Also the light-based stealth doesn't make you completely invisible unlike plenty stealth games, which is good. It just influences their ability to spot you.


My brightness is up to max but when I come across these areas, I can't see the goods so I have to shine a light to retrieve them.

If this is true then I don't know what to say...

You should turn the brightness down some though, I can imagine the game looking especially like ass with brightness at full.

Shralla
11th Jun 2014, 17:39
You can hide in the dark in Deus Ex? I have never done that...

I am utterly fascinated that you have made it as far as you have in Deus Ex. This is a totally different perspective on the game. I'm not knocking you, I honestly can't see myself making it that far without shadow stealth or upgrading your skills, and the stories you tell about your experiences truly speak loads about the openness of the game. So many different ways to play.

But yeah, darkness is your friend. Depending on the enemy you can be like three feet in front of him and as long as it's dark he won't see you. This should definitely change up how you approach situations. See what games like HR have done? You didn't even consider that there could be shadow based stealth, a product of most games giving you nowhere near that level of flexibility.

ResidentX
11th Jun 2014, 17:57
I am utterly fascinated that you have made it as far as you have in Deus Ex. This is a totally different perspective on the game. I'm not knocking you, I honestly can't see myself making it that far without shadow stealth or upgrading your skills, and the stories you tell about your experiences truly speak loads about the openness of the game. So many different ways to play.

But yeah, darkness is your friend. Depending on the enemy you can be like three feet in front of him and as long as it's dark he won't see you. This should definitely change up how you approach situations. See what games like HR have done? You didn't even consider that there could be shadow based stealth, a product of most games giving you nowhere near that level of flexibility.

This is the first game I have played where I do only the mission objectives and leave. In DE:HR, I used to spend a lot of time exploring for goods and information. But in this game, doors are locked, computers are timed so you can't know everything. It changes how you play.

Many times, I have wanted to delete this game to get the frustration out of my life but the flexibility keeps bringing me back. I'm just really amazed at how sophisticated software was back in 1999. This game is only 600MB too.

CyberP
11th Jun 2014, 18:00
I am utterly fascinated that you have made it as far as you have in Deus Ex. This is a totally different perspective on the game. I'm not knocking you, I honestly can't see myself making it that far without shadow stealth or upgrading your skills.

He is probably playing combat playstyle, so light-based visibility of the player is almost irrelevant for him.
You can complete the game without skills & augs too, they just make it much more fun :)


This is the first game I have played where I do only the mission objectives and leave. In DE:HR, I used to spend a lot of time exploring for goods and information. But in this game, doors are locked, computers are timed so you can't know everything. It changes how you play.

Many times, I have wanted to delete this game to get the frustration out of my life but the flexibility keeps bringing me back. I'm just really amazed at how sophisticated software was back in 1999. This game is only 600MB too.

It's mostly because of the game's design. The tech has been capable of such things for years now. Play System Shock 1 (1994) if you want your mind blown further. Produced by the same legend behind Deus Ex.

With mods Deus Ex has been pushed even further. Graphically you are quite restricted. Everything else though there is few limitations, which I why I want to do so much more, but few care to show any support...not that I am surprised in this state and age of video gaming.

BridgetFisher
11th Jun 2014, 18:29
NO, NO, NO....maybe later. The Original Deus Ex had that and I hated it. Weather/Daylight is good for some games but it can added complexity. Just get the game out, we don't need that level of immersion. This isn't an MMORPG.

Isnt day/night and weather just a feature of the game engine they use or dont use? Its not something they need to like invent from the ground up is it?

ResidentX
11th Jun 2014, 18:39
Isnt day/night and weather just a feature of the game engine they use or dont use? Its not something they need to like invent from the ground up is it?

I think DE: HR is based on the "Modified" Crystal tools(Proprietary) by Square Enix. I think it supports OpenWorld style but it's not a true sandbox. The other question is what version of the tools was used with DE:HR? I know with Lightning Returns:Final Fantasy they deployed a version that was compatible with OpenWorld Style.

CyberP
11th Jun 2014, 18:40
Isnt day/night and weather just a feature of the game engine they use or dont use? Its not something they need to like invent from the ground up is it?

It can be either in any decent engine post early-mid 1990s. Even earlier games could do it/spoof it with backdrops/art, though obviously that's not proper weather effects and lighting.

But yes, if EM wanted to they could make it from scratch, but it's likely that whatever engine they are using already features it all to great effect.
Whether they want to utilize it or not is all that matters.

FrankCSIS
11th Jun 2014, 22:46
Well...Only way I see it is if the events happen live, in the "24" format. If the the game and the events both last, say, roughly 30 hours, it could be interesting to follow the time cycle in real time, including jet lag as you travel.

If we go down that route, then there could be a way for set events to happen at specific times, no matter where your actual progression brought you, the way 24 continued during commercial breaks. This would be in the spirit of the hostage situation in HR, although the player shouldn't necessarily be penalised for exploring or taking more time. It would simply add a great deal of replayability, seeing as you wouldn't necessarily be in the same place in the world as some key events happened. A great deal of work, but I can see it being done without too much hassle.

For instance. The bombing of Liberty Statue happens on a set date and time in canon (even though we don't specifically know, to my knowledge, there still has to be an actual historic date!). Depending on your progress, you could be in NY at the time it happens, and see an explosion in the background with all the commotion, or you could be in France, on the track of Silhouette, when you are briefed about it/hear it on the news. Seeing as the game would take place on a short span of time, the actual number of major events would be rather limited, making this a lot less complicated to build than it may actually sound.

-Neon-
12th Jun 2014, 00:06
How's about an actual cycle that matches your computers clock? They could work minor things and side-quests in where you have to play at a certain time to see them.
Or, if that's too restricting, make it so that it's 2 game days to 1 RL day.

CyberP
12th Jun 2014, 01:34
It's a matter of priorities again though. Is a day/night cycle worth EM's time implementing when they could be focusing on other things? Probably not.

AdrianShephard
12th Jun 2014, 03:38
My vote is no, I do not think a day/night cycle fits with the cyberpunk, dystopian world theme. I'm all for daylight in some missions though as long as it fits with the timeline story...sort of how at one point Deus Ex 1 took place at dusk (or dawn...forgot).

CyberP
12th Jun 2014, 12:26
With a day/night cycle NPCs in an Immersive Sim are expected to have lives, so they go to sleep, work etc. Like in Elder Scrolls & Fallout. This obviously would be a lot of extra work. It's not a bad thing to do, it's more simulated, but in DX we never stay in Hubs for more than a few hours max.

It's not suitable really. Only because of milestones and deadlines, and of course money. Maybe when/if ever dev cycles are not 2-4 years, but 8, it would be worth spending all that time in a non-open world game working on making it truly simulated, but for now they should focus on more important things, we all know there was problems with HR as it is, and it lacked the depth of DX1 (if we ignore graphics fidelity as a factor of depth, which we should).

However, I think they should do the occasional break in a NPC's usual routine. Just the occasional minor NPC in a Hub.

AdrianShephard
12th Jun 2014, 23:19
Maybe when/if ever dev cycles are not 2-4 years, but 8


I hope this never happens. 8 years is way too long and I would have outgrown gaming by the time the second game of a new IP comes out.

CyberP
12th Jun 2014, 23:42
Outgrown gaming? Pfft :p

“A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever.”
― Shigeru Miyamoto

^more time spent on something solid with good direction the better it would be. It will never happen though because business. Also the rapidly evolving tech of today would mean the game once finally released would be behind in terms of tech. But I don't care about that.

Devs could even release SDK's and let the community do their own stuff so you wouldn't have to wait.

Complex games will never reach a state of near "perfection" without years of work. Interestingly enough The Nameless Mod took 7 years to develop..but that was different to working full time in a professional environment.
Professionally developed games take 2 years to develop on average, but there are occasionally major exceptions. Doesn't really make sense since there is a great difference in complexity of some and it's why complex games usually lack polish unlike simple ones. Didn't DX:HR take quite a long time in comparison to most? Probably why it's so polished.

AdrianShephard
13th Jun 2014, 01:30
I'll wait 8 years if a Deus Ex 1 caliber game comes out. But I don't think that will ever happen. It's been a long time since I've walked away from a game feeling like I just experienced a masterpiece. Red Dead Redemption was probably the last game that did it for me...that game is not without its flaws, but for some reason the story just resonated so well with me. It could be the excellent pacing or shocking ending (don't want to spoil it for you if you haven't played it).


Didn't DX:HR take quite a long time in comparison to most? Probably why it's so polished.

Didn't work on HR start in like 2007?

For the amount of time that was spent on HR, I expected a much much better experience. They at least could've given us more hubs/bigger worlds or better writing.

CyberP
13th Jun 2014, 01:57
I'll wait 8 years if a Deus Ex 1 caliber game comes out. But I don't think that will ever happen. It's been a long time since I've walked away from a game feeling like I just experienced a masterpiece. Red Dead Redemption was probably the last game that did it for me...that game is not without its flaws, but for some reason the story just resonated so well with me. It could be the excellent pacing or shocking ending (don't want to spoil it for you if you haven't played it).

Yeah I've played it. Great story, and one of few modern third person shooters that is actually decent in gameplay too.



For the amount of time that was spent on HR, I expected a much much better experience.

Yes, but they did good for a rookie studio + with modern pressures/expectations. Hopefully DX4 will be much better.

AgentExeider
17th Jul 2014, 13:32
Deus Ex has operated on the ideal that the story of your character and the story overall takes a few days, couple weeks at the most. Alot happens in a short amount of time.

and while I don't agree that the game needs a day/night cycle. I feel that you can still make it feel like Deus Ex in broad daylight. Like the last level in HR, the fact it was not only daylight, but in fact bright and sunny, and yet I still felt the sense of brooding and Deus Ex.

It was a feeling of coming up for air before diving again. Almost as if to say, enjoy the sun, the light, the fleeting moments of calm and warmth because we heading back again into the darkness.

So if there are more "day" levels in future Deus Ex games, they need to still keep the feeling of the night levels, which was accomplished in HR thanks to the music, the audio element in a game helps SOOOOO much with the mood, in fact it's almost subconscious when done right, and blatantly obvious when it's not there and done wrong.

So yes, as long as it serves the plot and the mood is preserved, which as I said can be done other ways, I have no problem with day levels.

AlexOfSpades
17th Jul 2014, 15:28
No.

Daylight kind of ruins the "dark cyberpunk dystopia" mood. Needs to be always at night, and even more: We could use a hub or two under rain.

AgentExeider
17th Jul 2014, 16:23
Well I'm playing "The Fall" right now and it's during daylight hours and it still feels Deus Ex to me. Did anyone not notice that that?? I almost didn't because the music and the atmosphere of the game itself kept me in the mindset. So practical experiment, daylight didn't seem to break the immersion, at least for me.

Shralla
17th Jul 2014, 17:15
I doubt anybody noticed because barely anybody played The Fall.

ResidentX
17th Jul 2014, 17:49
I doubt anybody noticed because barely anybody played The Fall.

Tell him, Shralla...I did play it too and several times but just for the story of Ben Saxon. The created world I kind of ignored because it was in Panama.

Can I say one thing about the day/night? Sometimes people on these boards get ideas from somewhere else and try to pass them off as their own. I saw this video for MGS5, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Akgs87OvXcU, and it made me rethink the comments about night and day. The video is about 10 minutes but you'll see what I mean. Make sure you watch it in 1080p.

Everyone is stealing ideas from Deus Ex: Human Revolution...Eidos Montreal are the style makers.

Shralla
17th Jul 2014, 19:47
I am so not watching a 10 minute video about MGSV. Could you give us some bullet points?

ResidentX
17th Jul 2014, 19:51
I am so not watching a 10 minute video about MGSV. Could you give us some bullet points?

Never a dull moment with you, Shralla. In the Video, MGS is showing time/day change, openworld, and using the "stolen" Eidos x-ray imaging techniques.

WildcatPhoenix
17th Jul 2014, 20:27
Everyone is stealing ideas from Deus Ex: Human Revolution...Eidos Montreal are the style makers.

Yes, the team that lifted the cover mechanic from Gears of War, the health regeneration system from Halo/Call of Duty, and third-person cutscene takedowns from Assassin's Creed and the Batman: Arkham games definitely knows how to innovate...:rolleyes:

JCpies
17th Jul 2014, 21:13
I'd love "cycles" in a Deus Ex game, if done decently they could be very effective.

People move around, crowds form and dissipate, supporting characters move from place to place, gangsters and dealers move between safe-houses. If the evening/night/morning cycle was done at a realistic pace, I would be all for it.

It might be a bit problematic for the narrative depending on how long you spend at certain areas, but I doubt people spend so long in one area that clashing with the narrative would be too jarring.

Shralla
17th Jul 2014, 23:49
using the "stolen" Eidos x-ray imaging techniques.

What is this technique you speak of?

ResidentX
18th Jul 2014, 01:28
Yes, the team that lifted the cover mechanic from Gears of War, the health regeneration system from Halo/Call of Duty, and third-person cutscene takedowns from Assassin's Creed and the Batman: Arkham games definitely knows how to innovate...:rolleyes:

WildcatPhoenix, you don't think their style makers? I played arkham but weren't those games after DE:HR?
I'll have to watch some youtube videos about the games your talking about.

ResidentX
18th Jul 2014, 01:31
What is this technique you speak of?

This is the X-Ray stuff I'm talking about, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIqJaT3cvf8

All the games are doing this now.

Shralla
18th Jul 2014, 02:11
I did that in Perfect Dark. It's not a new thing, and games certainly aren't "stealing" it from Deus Ex. Blacklight Retribution came out the spring after HR with x-ray vision being a core gameplay mechanic, a replacement for the usual radar in shooters.

WildcatPhoenix
18th Jul 2014, 03:05
WildcatPhoenix, you don't think their style makers? I played arkham but weren't those games after DE:HR?
I'll have to watch some youtube videos about the games your talking about.

No, I do not think they are "style makers." Basically the only thing distinctive about Human Revolution was the pervasive gold tint.

Batman: Arkham Asylum came out in 2009 (and was distributed, coincidentally, by Square Enix and Eidos).

RougeisSerina
18th Jul 2014, 04:18
That is also true.

Shralla
18th Jul 2014, 05:20
Also Halo was 2001, Modern Warfare was 2007, as was Assassin's Creed. How you could think any of these came out after Human Revolution is beyond me. I have a pretty good sense of release years though.

CyberP
18th Jul 2014, 12:46
Let's not exaggerate, HR does have a style unique to it. OK it's Deus Ex cross MGS cross modern cinematic nonsense, but it still has it's own unique style. Predominantly in the art direction, but it's there (not just the gold theme).

AdrianShephard
18th Jul 2014, 19:52
Don't know what any of you are talking about when you say HR and The Fall still feel like Deus Ex in daylight. The games didn't feel like Deus Ex to me period.

imported_Adam_Jensen
1st Aug 2014, 00:26
“A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever.”
― Shigeru Miyamoto



Tell that to Duke Nukem

CyberP
1st Aug 2014, 02:10
Tell that to Duke Nukem

Duke Nukem: Forever wasn't so much delayed as scrapped numerous times and rebuilt from scratch. Still, it's a valid point, a delayed game isn't always eventually good.