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ssbsts23
10th Jun 2014, 15:42
loved the new trailer, I like the new darker route that the games are taking but
my only fear is that in the new game they introduce a love interest for Lara
in my opinion that is a bad idea, they introduced one in the Tomb Raider comics and I found that it ruined Lara, the guy (forgotten his name) was an unlikable character and wasn't a welcome addition to the character roster, the same problem (among many others) was in the films, the problem is that the players of the games love Lara and players wont agree on who is good enough for her

so please, please keep Lara single, by all means have he flirt with other characters just don't try to pin her to another because that would kill part of Lara's mystery, and Lara is one of the greatest, strongest, most loved characters ever created, and that mystery about her is one of the reasons why

daventry
10th Jun 2014, 15:45
Exactly, she doesent need a Man or Lesbian Woman to feel Strong, Woman can be Strong just like Men, no need for Love to show they are Weak.

Ellie92
10th Jun 2014, 15:47
No idea what the hell you are talking about with "love and weak" but wtf, Lara has a love interest in the comics?! O_o

pirate1802
10th Jun 2014, 15:50
Yeah, let's plan to.....riot? (As Driber says :p)

daventry
10th Jun 2014, 15:51
Thank goodness its Not Sam and besides, Lara is a Loner, no need to fill the Void in her life to make closure on some Romantic Hollywood Movie.

Ellie92
10th Jun 2014, 15:56
Maybe you watch the wrong movies then. I haven't had one cheesy relationship in the stuff I watch for over 5 years or so. As I always say, if done right... (no one is talking about stupid Hollywood Twilight ****).

AshrakAiemain
10th Jun 2014, 16:05
OP is talking about the old comics, way back in the day. And while yes, it was a little silly and forced there, video game storytelling has come a long way. Nathan and Elena from Uncharted is a pretty good example of a romance that made characters grow without it being forced or some kind of distraction.

VaBanes
10th Jun 2014, 16:17
I don't need any relationship in TR myself, I just think Lara should be able to love and be attracted to someone and not just care about tomb raiding and tomb raiding only.
I also think people should not just focus on those crappy Hollywood romances when talking about a love interest for Lara. There are tons of examples where actually enhances and deepens a characters personality because it is done right.

ssbsts23
10th Jun 2014, 16:25
Nathan and Elena are a good example, but those two characters were introduced together and evolved together, Since Lara has been around since 1996, she has developed a huge following of fans who love and respect her (including me) and it will be almost impossible to introduce a new character who will be accepted as Lara's equal

kerrang
10th Jun 2014, 17:01
no thanks any cheesy relationships!

Driber
10th Jun 2014, 18:08
Nathan and Elena are a good example, but those two characters were introduced together and evolved together, Since Lara has been around since 1996, she has developed a huge following of fans who love and respect her (including me) and it will be almost impossible to introduce a new character who will be accepted as Lara's equal

And this is exactly one of the reasons why it won't be done.

Don't worry, ssbsts23; CD has been quite clear about this on several occasions - it ain't happening :cool:

ssbsts23
10th Jun 2014, 18:25
And this is exactly one of the reasons why it won't be done.

Don't worry, ssbsts23; CD has been quite clear about this on several occasions - it ain't happening :cool:

oh god thank you, I can rest easy now :)

Metalrocks
11th Jun 2014, 01:51
still think that it wont harm. maybe one day we will see it happen. or as i have stated it many times, leave it optional to the player.

Murphdawg1
11th Jun 2014, 02:01
still think that it wont harm. maybe one day we will see it happen. or as i have stated it many times, leave it optional to the player.

That wouldn't work in a game like Tomb Raider, then the arguement would over what is canon and what isn't. But yes Crystal D has spoken on the matter several times and I think they're making the right call.

pirate1802
11th Jun 2014, 02:31
Yeah, optional stuff works in RPGs, where pretty much everything is optional.

AdobeArtist
11th Jun 2014, 02:35
The only thing there is to fear is fear itself :cool:
Sorry, just couldn't resist :p

But to get back on topic, I must respectfully disagree. I think that introducing a love interest can help to enrich Lara's character development, simply by providing the opportunity to explore the feelings she has beneath the surface.

And I think it's important to address that feelings don't make anyone weak, not any man or woman.

And it doesn't have to get involved in a serious/committed relationship. In no way am I proposing that Lara (or anybody for that matter) "requires" having someone in their life to feel "complete". Just to see that Lara has wants and needs and that she would desire some guy she meets, even if she holds herself back from seriously taking it anywhere for her own personal reasons.

Now having what I just said, I'll still play devils advocate here; I still think a boyfriend (serious or casual) would go a lot longer a way to furthering that character development than just the isolated encounter, as it would show how meaningful said guy is to Lara. That importance would reveal significant meaning in her psyche.

But hey, before we get all tangled in labels of bf, or relationship can we just agree that it wouldn't "destroy" Lara for her to simply... KISS a dude once in a while and, oh I don't know, actually enjoy it for herself? :p :whistle:

Metalrocks
11th Jun 2014, 03:11
That wouldn't work in a game like Tomb Raider, then the arguement would over what is canon and what isn't. But yes Crystal D has spoken on the matter several times and I think they're making the right call.

worked in AoD. and i think it was a nice touch to have some RPG elements. hell, even the choices you have made could kill her.
like adobe said, it will not destroy laras personality. it will show more of her human side. its not like we are talking lara should focus only on that and forget or give up raiding.

Driber
11th Jun 2014, 10:39
@AA: no. just... no

:p


worked in AoD. and i think it was a nice touch to have some RPG elements. hell, even the choices you have made could kill her.


Using AoD as proof that an "RPG Lara" would work is like using the Muppets to proof that frogs and pigs would make good couples.

lol

Seriously, though, the "RPG" elements in AoD are nothing like the kind of RPG element that are being proposed here, and shouldn't even be labeled as "RPG" :nut:

Allowing the player to choose a dialog that either advances Lara in the story or kills her off couldn't be further away from real RPG, where your choices actually influence the story later on, in a meaningful way.

Choosing a "wrong" dialog option and then Lara being dead is not advancing anything. It's just... GAME OVER, lol. Then you have to restart the game and still choose the "correct" dialog option. That's nothing like real RPG.

So in short - no, it didn't "work" in AoD.


like adobe said, it will not destroy laras personality. it will show more of her human side. its not like we are talking lara should focus only on that and forget or give up raiding.

I think you read AA's post wrong. That's not what he said.

d1n0_xD
11th Jun 2014, 10:54
The only RPG elements I wanna see are skill trees like in the previous game, and a lot of outfits :D

BridgetFisher
11th Jun 2014, 11:47
From the trailer it looks like another game about her emotional development with a bow. From what Im reading people talk about online, most people seem to feel the last game should have been called rise of the tomb raider, that another emotional development game is kind of redundant so why buy it. I noticed quotes from the developer that were linked discussing how the person making it said they hated guns and want to move away from dual wielding guns which glorifies firearms. Apparently those quotes all came from from Karl Stewart and Brian Horton, Im not sure who they are but they seem to be the ones who are making these new games.

From what people are saying, it seems that overall people are commenting that it just seems like the last game a generic cover shooter with the name "Tomb raider" on it. I did learn a new term from reading alot of discussions online, people are calling this new series "New Raider" and not "Tomb Raider" seems the fanbase has decided that the new games arent anything like the old games so adopted these terms separating the two in discussions. People seem to be saying gamers should avoid "Tomb Raider" named games, it seems the "Lara Croft" named games are about Tomb Raiding, while these new "Tomb Raider" named games are not about tomb raiding instead they are games where you learn about emotional development, seems they have the naming mixed up.

I think Im going to pass on this game, I'll follow the discussions but Im waiting for a real Tomb Raider game not another rise of the tomb raider. Been there, done that in the last game. Whats next the development of Master Chief from Halo where he has no guns and goes around tripping over his own shoe laces? XDDD

Driber
11th Jun 2014, 12:06
From the trailer it looks like another game about her emotional development with a bow. From what Im reading people talk about online, most people seem to feel the last game should have been called rise of the tomb raider, that another emotional development game is kind of redundant so why buy it. I noticed quotes from the developer that were linked discussing how the person making it said they hated guns and want to move away from dual wielding guns which glorifies firearms. Apparently those quotes all came from from Karl Stewart and Brian Horton, Im not sure who they are but they seem to be the ones who are making these new games.

From what people are saying, it seems that overall people are commenting that it just seems like the last game a generic cover shooter with the name "Tomb raider" on it. I did learn a new term from reading alot of discussions online, people are calling this new series "New Raider" and not "Tomb Raider" seems the fanbase has decided that the new games arent anything like the old games so adopted these terms separating the two in discussions. People seem to be saying gamers should avoid "Tomb Raider" named games, it seems the "Lara Croft" named games are about Tomb Raiding, while these new "Tomb Raider" named games are not about tomb raiding instead they are games where you learn about emotional development, seems they have the naming mixed up.

I think Im going to pass on this game, I'll follow the discussions but Im waiting for a real Tomb Raider game not another rise of the tomb raider. Been there, done that in the last game. Whats next the development of Master Chief from Halo where he has no guns and goes around tripping over his own shoe laces? XDDD

Sounds to me like you've been reading discussions coming from a bubble of cynical/bitter fans. I think you'll find that the opinions of the entire fanbase are far more varied than the summary you just gave.

As for those supposed quotes from Karl/Brian - I seriously doubt those are true and accurate. That again just sounds like cynical/bitter fans putting words in the mouths of the devs.

Tecstar70
11th Jun 2014, 12:06
From the trailer it looks like another game about her emotional development with a bow. From what Im reading people talk about online, most people seem to feel the last game should have been called rise of the tomb raider, that another emotional development game is kind of redundant so why buy it. I noticed quotes from the developer that were linked discussing how the person making it said they hated guns and want to move away from dual wielding guns which glorifies firearms. Apparently those quotes all came from from Karl Stewart and Brian Horton, Im not sure who they are but they seem to be the ones who are making these new games.

From what people are saying, it seems that overall people are commenting that it just seems like the last game a generic cover shooter with the name "Tomb raider" on it. I did learn a new term from reading alot of discussions online, people are calling this new series "New Raider" and not "Tomb Raider" seems the fanbase has decided that the new games arent anything like the old games so adopted these terms separating the two in discussions. People seem to be saying gamers should avoid "Tomb Raider" named games, it seems the "Lara Croft" named games are about Tomb Raiding, while these new "Tomb Raider" named games are not about tomb raiding instead they are games where you learn about emotional development, seems they have the naming mixed up.

I think Im going to pass on this game, I'll follow the discussions but Im waiting for a real Tomb Raider game not another rise of the tomb raider. Been there, done that in the last game. Whats next the development of Master Chief from Halo where he has no guns and goes around tripping over his own shoe laces? XDDD

Totally staggered! You are NOT buying ROTTR without even seeing footage, reading reviews or hearing about the story etc! Wow, the games that you play must be totally outstanding then if they have to meet this expectation! :)

As far as i know, no-one has seen footage, played the game or read the story line and it is at least a year from Alpha. Don't you think that you should make a decision based on your factual knowledge of the game, which at this point is minimal, rather than others personal opinion and wild speculation?

d1n0_xD
11th Jun 2014, 12:07
From the trailer it looks like another game about her emotional development with a bow. From what Im reading people talk about online, most people seem to feel the last game should have been called rise of the tomb raider, that another emotional development game is kind of redundant so why buy it. I noticed quotes from the developer that were linked discussing how the person making it said they hated guns and want to move away from dual wielding guns which glorifies firearms. Apparently those quotes all came from from Karl Stewart and Brian Horton, Im not sure who they are but they seem to be the ones who are making these new games.

From what people are saying, it seems that overall people are commenting that it just seems like the last game a generic cover shooter with the name "Tomb raider" on it. I did learn a new term from reading alot of discussions online, people are calling this new series "New Raider" and not "Tomb Raider" seems the fanbase has decided that the new games arent anything like the old games so adopted these terms separating the two in discussions. People seem to be saying gamers should avoid "Tomb Raider" named games, it seems the "Lara Croft" named games are about Tomb Raiding, while these new "Tomb Raider" named games are not about tomb raiding instead they are games where you learn about emotional development, seems they have the naming mixed up.

I think Im going to pass on this game, I'll follow the discussions but Im waiting for a real Tomb Raider game not another rise of the tomb raider. Been there, done that in the last game. Whats next the development of Master Chief from Halo where he has no guns and goes around tripping over his own shoe laces? XDDD

Just becuase the game has "Rise" in the title, doesn't mean she isn't a Tomb Raider. Batman "rised" in the 3rd movie, but do you want to tell me he wasn't Batman in the 2 previous ones? And since when tomb raiding and being badass can't coexist with emotional development? I think the trailer depicted Lara really well, and I viewed the whole "therapy" thing as an ironic thing, since she didn't close herself in, she's actually tomb raiding. You didn't expect she would tell her psychiatrist she's up and about killing people all around the globe, raiding tombs? He would diagnose her psychotic and bring police on her ass... And what? Since the last game was about emotional development, emotions and whatever are forbidden in the following games? Let me tell you something right now, that kind of game would suck... Emotions don't necessarily mean "cry", "weak", emotions are also "laugh", "good sense of humor", "sense of rightousness", "selfishness"... She is the Tomb Raider and we're seeing her being the Tomb Raider, hence the Rise... Rise doesn't mean she isn't the tomb raider, Rise means she is. :) And it's just a minute-long cinematic trailer, not many things can be gathered from that.

Tecstar70
11th Jun 2014, 12:16
You could say she has fallen since Yamatai, and now she is rising again from that experience. The interesting point maybe what her motivation will be to do so...

BridgetFisher
11th Jun 2014, 12:24
Just becuase the game has "Rise" in the title, doesn't mean she isn't a Tomb Raider. Batman "rised" in the 3rd movie, but do you want to tell me he wasn't Batman in the 2 previous ones? And since when tomb raiding and being badass can't coexist with emotional development? I think the trailer depicted Lara really well, and I viewed the whole "therapy" thing as an ironic thing, since she didn't close herself in, she's actually tomb raiding. You didn't expect she would tell her psychiatrist she's up and about killing people all around the globe, raiding tombs? He would diagnose her psychotic and bring police on her ass... And what? Since the last game was about emotional development, emotions and whatever are forbidden in the following games? Let me tell you something right now, that kind of game would suck... Emotions don't necessarily mean "cry", "weak", emotions are also "laugh", "good sense of humor", "sense of rightousness", "selfishness"... She is the Tomb Raider and we're seeing her being the Tomb Raider, hence the Rise... Rise doesn't mean she isn't the tomb raider, Rise means she is. :) And it's just a minute-long cinematic trailer, not many things can be gathered from that.

This may need to be communicated more effectively as I notice the gaming community is not seeing that angle about how critical emotional development is in gameplay or how the word "rise" is being used in this instance. She kinda did that before in the last game. Batman did rise, but only once. I think this is what people are noticing about the game simply from the "name". A name is everything today, often people dont look past a titles "name" or the "box art" and will just pass right by it on the shelf to another product. This is where marketing could be key in communicating the importance of emotional development in the game industry?

d1n0_xD
11th Jun 2014, 12:30
This may need to be communicated more effectively as I notice the gaming community is not seeing that angle about how critical emotional development is in gameplay or how the word "rise" is being used in this instance. She kinda did that before in the last game. Batman did rise, but only once. I think this is what people are noticing about the game simply from the "name". A name is everything today, often people dont look past a titles "name" or the "box art" and will just pass right by it on the shelf to another product. This is where marketing could be key in communicating the importance of emotional development in the game industry?

Yes, but those people surely aren't fans or are not discussing things on the forums and keeping closely with the game. A random dude might go to the store, see the title "Rise of the Tomb Raider" and figure "aw man, another reboot, this is going on for too long", but if you're familiar with the franchise, the title shouldn't alienate you, IMO. Now, if we're discussing marketing, then yes, maybe the title is a little off, but you're actively thinking about not buying a game based off title alone, and I think you're not an average dude since you're on the TR forums. I mean, I'm not trying to convince you to like it, maybe you won't like it at tall when it comes out, I'm just saying we need more proof than cynical fans not knowing what they're talking about :) All we have is a title and a trailer, and a pretty good one at that too. When the devs tell us more info, we can discuss it a little more in depth and whether she is tomb raider or not.

Tecstar70
11th Jun 2014, 12:35
Personally i don't see the first game as a "rise". i see it as a formation or initiation. She started out as a "normal" young student embarking on an exciting journey and ended up having to deal with death, destruction and emotional and physical extremes.

What we have seen in the teaser trailer is the result of that initiation. She has been broken by the experience and from that I expect to see her rise both from the experience of the first game and as the character we know as "Tomb Raider", a character which at the end of the first game is one that Lara herself is not aware of as her destiny.

In this context I think Rise... seems to perfectly fit with the second game.

d1n0_xD
11th Jun 2014, 12:39
^ Yes, but the main concern people have is that we're going to have the same game as before, which I don't think is the case.

BridgetFisher
11th Jun 2014, 12:39
Yes, but those people surely aren't fans or are not discussing things on the forums and keeping closely with the game. A random dude might go to the store, see the title "Rise of the Tomb Raider" and figure "aw man, another reboot, this is going on for too long", but if you're familiar with the franchise, the title shouldn't alienate you, IMO. Now, if we're discussing marketing, then yes, maybe the title is a little off, but you're actively thinking about not buying a game based off title alone, and I think you're not an average dude since you're on the TR forums. I mean, I'm not trying to convince you to like it, maybe you won't like it at tall when it comes out, I'm just saying we need more proof than cynical fans not knowing what they're talking about :) All we have is a title and a trailer, and a pretty good one at that too. When the devs tell us more info, we can discuss it a little more in depth and whether she is tomb raider or not.

Ya I think its more the community at large and the fan community Im noticing since I learned those new terms about how the current Tomb Raider games are being called "New Raider" or nuraider for short on message boards and blogs due to its lack of tomb raiding or anything from the original series. Im thinking of not buying the game more because I saw her use a bow and its 2014, I mean I know its a little thing, but that kinda says alot to me about the overall game if she isnt dual wielding like she used to. Im 100% sure the story is gonna be awesome as they always are though :D the TR has some of the best writing I think in modern gaming, although online seem less concerned with story as a gameplay element and more concerned with playing a character still "finding" themself. Even though its just a trailer, ALOT of people are judging the whole game based off it, at least the direction it seems which is what online communities do, they pour into the minutia of every little detail haha. Its fun to read how people do this, I never catch all those little things they notice. Sadly with the title "rise" and Lara running around with a Bow and not guns, people are seeing the game as just more of the same game from last time with nothing new to offer except better graphics.

Tecstar70
11th Jun 2014, 12:44
^ Yes, but the main concern people have is that we're going to have the same game as before, which I don't think is the case.

Nor do I. I think the evidence that it will not be the same game is clear:

Lara Croft pushes her physical and mental limits to survive and unravel the mystery buried within a Lost City in Rise of the Tomb Raider.

From: http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/e3/xbox-one-games


In her first adventure, Lara Croft was forged into a true survivor, but she glimpsed a deeper, secret world. In the next chapter of her journey, Lara must use her survival skills and wits, learn to trust new friends, and ultimately accept her destiny as the Tomb Raider.

Featuring epic, high-octane action moments, Rise of the Tomb Raider will take gamers to multiple locations around the world filled with exploration spaces that are some of the most beautifully hostile places on earth. In addition, after hearing the cry from fans loud and clear, the game will put the tombs back into Tomb Raider, all in the franchise’s gritty Survival-Action style.

From: http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/games/rise-of-the-tomb-raider#fbid=rtYHp8n5tGh

BridgetFisher
11th Jun 2014, 12:46
Nor do I. I think the evidence that it will not be the same game is clear:

Lara Croft pushes her physical and mental limits to survive and unravel the mystery buried within a Lost City in Rise of the Tomb Raider.

From: http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/e3/xbox-one-games


In her first adventure, Lara Croft was forged into a true survivor, but she glimpsed a deeper, secret world. In the next chapter of her journey, Lara must use her survival skills and wits, learn to trust new friends, and ultimately accept her destiny as the Tomb Raider.

Featuring epic, high-octane action moments, Rise of the Tomb Raider will take gamers to multiple locations around the world filled with exploration spaces that are some of the most beautifully hostile places on earth. In addition, after hearing the cry from fans loud and clear, the game will put the tombs back into Tomb Raider, all in the franchise’s gritty Survival-Action style.

From: http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/games/rise-of-the-tomb-raider#fbid=rtYHp8n5tGh

Uhhhhhh... Im just gonna wait for the game where she is a "tomb raider", however many games that takes...

Tecstar70
11th Jun 2014, 12:48
Ya I think its more the community at large and the fan community Im noticing since I learned those new terms about how the current Tomb Raider games are being called "New Raider" or nuraider for short on message boards and blogs due to its lack of tomb raiding or anything from the original series. Im thinking of not buying the game more because I saw her use a bow and its 2014, I mean I know its a little thing, but that kinda says alot to me about the overall game if she isnt dual wielding like she used to. Im 100% sure the story is gonna be awesome as they always are though :D the TR has some of the best writing I think in modern gaming, although online seem less concerned with story as a gameplay element and more concerned with playing a character still "finding" themself. Even though its just a trailer, ALOT of people are judging the whole game based off it, at least the direction it seems which is what online communities do, they pour into the minutia of every little detail haha. Its fun to read how people do this, I never catch all those little things they notice. Sadly with the title "rise" and Lara running around with a Bow and not guns, people are seeing the game as just more of the same game from last time with nothing new to offer except better graphics.


Unfortunately people do make wild speculations at the slightest thing, but at the end of the day these are just that, and so its up to the individual to view those as they wish.

Like Dino, i'm not gonna try to tell anyone what to do, but it would be a shame if you missed out on a cracking game by dismissing it so early on based on other peoples wild opinions.

It's no wonder game devs have a really hard time theses days isn't it? They are under pressure over a year before a game even comes out!

d1n0_xD
11th Jun 2014, 12:48
Ya I think its more the community at large and the fan community Im noticing since I learned those new terms about how the current Tomb Raider games are being called "New Raider" or nuraider for short on message boards and blogs due to its lack of tomb raiding or anything from the original series. Im thinking of not buying the game more because I saw her use a bow and its 2014, I mean I know its a little thing, but that kinda says alot to me about the overall game if she isnt dual wielding like she used to. Im 100% sure the story is gonna be awesome as they always are though :D the TR has some of the best writing I think in modern gaming, although online seem less concerned with story as a gameplay element and more concerned with playing a character still "finding" themself. Even though its just a trailer, ALOT of people are judging the whole game based off it, at least the direction it seems which is what online communities do, they pour into the minutia of every little detail haha. Its fun to read how people do this, I never catch all those little things they notice. Sadly with the title "rise" and Lara running around with a Bow and not guns, people are seeing the game as just more of the same game from last time with nothing new to offer except better graphics.



But why are people not seeing that guns in that particular situation wouldn't work, as the noise would alert other enemies, I don't think the poor guys she killed with a bow is the only one there... And so you're making your decision on the fact that people pointed out some things that may or may not be true, in the only trailer we've got so far, which doesn't even say that much? I mean, I get the feeling that, before you read those stuff and let some cynical fans cloud your judgement, you actually were excited for the game...



Nor do I. I think the evidence that it will not be the same game is clear:

Lara Croft pushes her physical and mental limits to survive and unravel the mystery buried within a Lost City in Rise of the Tomb Raider.

From: http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/e3/xbox-one-games


In her first adventure, Lara Croft was forged into a true survivor, but she glimpsed a deeper, secret world. In the next chapter of her journey, Lara must use her survival skills and wits, learn to trust new friends, and ultimately accept her destiny as the Tomb Raider.

Featuring epic, high-octane action moments, Rise of the Tomb Raider will take gamers to multiple locations around the world filled with exploration spaces that are some of the most beautifully hostile places on earth. In addition, after hearing the cry from fans loud and clear, the game will put the tombs back into Tomb Raider, all in the franchise’s gritty Survival-Action style.

From: http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/games/rise-of-the-tomb-raider#fbid=rtYHp8n5tGh

If that doesn't make her a Tomb Raider, I don't know what will.

Tecstar70
11th Jun 2014, 12:49
Uhhhhhh... Im just gonna wait for the game where she is a "tomb raider", however many games that takes...


It could be the next one! Wait and see BF, wait and see....

Metalrocks
11th Jun 2014, 14:32
you know what iam afraid off?
that this trailer would be used as the intro for the final game. just like they did with TR9. i sure hope this will not be the case this time.

@driber
you misunderstood my comment. but i also wrote it together that it does read that im still commenting AA. the first sentence is directed to AAs comment. but the second sentence is my opinion.

AdobeArtist
11th Jun 2014, 15:20
@AA: no. just... no

:p


What? My quoting of Winston Churchill? Or my entire post?? :scratch: :nut:


I think you read AA's post wrong. That's not what he said.

While I was focusing mainly on the emotional exploration of Lara's character through relationship and/ore love interest, I have previously made the same point as MetRock. That a relationship doesn't need to come at the cost of Lara's adventurous pursuits. For most people, the feelings co-exist with their vocational passions, so one doesn't have to sacrifice the other.


Personally i don't see the first game as a "rise". i see it as a formation or initiation. She started out as a "normal" young student embarking on an exciting journey and ended up having to deal with death, destruction and emotional and physical extremes.

What we have seen in the teaser trailer is the result of that initiation. She has been broken by the experience and from that I expect to see her rise both from the experience of the first game and as the character we know as "Tomb Raider", a character which at the end of the first game is one that Lara herself is not aware of as her destiny.

In this context I think Rise... seems to perfectly fit with the second game.

Very much agree. Lara's life development is happening in two stages.

First is all about survival, which is driven by circumstances that force Lara along her path.

Next, having come out of that crucible, is where we see Lara take the initiative to forge her own way. Now we'll be seeing her driving her own purpose. So that is the "rise" in the sense of being self motivated, not pushed by external forces.

This kind of reflects in the caption I made in my new sig, the difference between survival and the true journey beginning ;)


Im thinking of not buying the game more because I saw her use a bow and its 2014, I mean I know its a little thing, but that kinda says alot to me about the overall game if she isnt dual wielding like she used to.

Honestly I find this a very superficial way of characterizing the series. Lara was never limited to just her dual pistols, she's always had a variety of weapons; assault rifles, shotguns, sniper rifles, and so on. So how is the bow any different from this? Lara is not defined by the dual pistols, she's resourceful and adaptable and makes any weapon her own.

Plus I LIKE the bow. It reflects a true weapon of skill and mastery over any gun :)




And as for the whole RPG argument, it really doesn't apply to Tomb Raider. Which doesn't have to do with what kind of skill trees or leveling the game uses.

But at the heart of it, what really defines an RPG is the game play of experiencing the world as your own character. Role playing is about creating an avatar that is an extension of yourself. And clearly Lara is her own self defined character, not the players. So TR is not and never will be an RPG.

Having said that, love interests and/or relationships are not bound to the RPG genre alone. We see it all the time in any action adventure or story driven game. Or any linear and pre-scripted game. Like I said before, it's about the character development. In games like Assassin's Creed, Prince of Persia, Uncharted, Alan Wake (to name a few) the story portrays characters as real people who have feelings for other people.

Did keeping the choice to pursue those romances away from the player and having it locked in a pre-scripted story diminish the quality or players experience in any way?

So a romance shouldn't be possible "only if it's the players choice" in an RPG experience. Linear games are still enjoyable when the player allows themselves to go along for the ride and see where the writer takes them and what discoveries they bring of of the character in that adventure :wave:

Tecstar70
11th Jun 2014, 16:06
Just found this old quote:

Horton appeared at the UK’s Bradford Animation Festival and accepted questions from the crowd afterwards. Addressing questions regarding the Tomb Raider sequel, he replied, “We’ve announced the sequel… I’m glad I can finally talk about!. The Tomb Raider sequel is the next chapter of Lara’s development… her life is changing. She can’t go back to the way she was.”

Driber
11th Jun 2014, 17:03
Personally i don't see the first game as a "rise". i see it as a formation or initiation. She started out as a "normal" young student embarking on an exciting journey and ended up having to deal with death, destruction and emotional and physical extremes.

What we have seen in the teaser trailer is the result of that initiation. She has been broken by the experience and from that I expect to see her rise both from the experience of the first game and as the character we know as "Tomb Raider", a character which at the end of the first game is one that Lara herself is not aware of as her destiny.

In this context I think Rise... seems to perfectly fit with the second game.

This.


^ Yes, but the main concern people have is that we're going to have the same game as before, which I don't think is the case.

Okay, but wouldn't that be the fault of people jumping to conclusions (like always) rather than a "marketing error" as you implied?

There is probably not one single "perfect title" that will ever prevent cynics from throwing tomatoes at the fist glimpse of a new game in a series that has previously disappointed them :whistle:


Im thinking of not buying the game more because I saw her use a bow and its 2014, I mean I know its a little thing, but that kinda says alot to me about the overall game if she isnt dual wielding like she used to.

I try to pass no judgement on people who are turned off by the lack of dual wielding (hell, I'm in favour of it, myself, and I've put forth scenarios where is most definitely would work and add that little bit of extra 'kick-ass' element to the game) but aren't you calling a bit too quick, though?

So you've seen Lara using a bow in a 2 minute trailer. How does that proof that there won't be guns in the game at all?


@driber
you misunderstood my comment. but i also wrote it together that it does read that im still commenting AA. the first sentence is directed to AAs comment. but the second sentence is my opinion.

AA said that Lara kissing a dude wouldn't destroy her. That you seem to take out of context. And no one here was making the argument that a kiss would destroy her, so it's an irrelevant point, heh.

And you're still wrong about AoD IMO :whistle:


What? My quoting of Winston Churchill? Or my entire post?? :scratch: :nut:

Your entire point, rather. Heh.

I did like the quote :cool:


While I was focusing mainly on the emotional exploration of Lara's character through relationship and/ore love interest, I have previously made the same point as MetRock. That a relationship doesn't need to come at the cost of Lara's adventurous pursuits. For most people, the feelings co-exist with their vocational passions, so one doesn't have to sacrifice the other.

I don't disagree. But that wasn't our point :)


Honestly I find this a very superficial way of characterizing the series. Lara was never limited to just her dual pistols, she's always had a variety of weapons; assault rifles, shotguns, sniper rifles, and so on. So how is the bow any different from this? Lara is not defined by the dual pistols, she's resourceful and adaptable and makes any weapon her own.

I partially agree.

While I'm on board with the notion that people shouldn't just dismiss an entire TR game as TR fans based on what weapons are available, at the same time I also understand how some are iconic enough that one can indeed speak of something that defines Lara Croft as a videogame character.

The same way Scorpio is kind of defined by his Kunai on a rope, or Link by his Hylian shield and master sword, or Ezio by his hidden blade, the same way Lara is defined by her dual guns to older TR fans, or by her bow by the newer TR fans.

After all, the devs didn't put this at the end of TR9 for no reason...



;)


And as for the whole RPG argument, it really doesn't apply to Tomb Raider. Which doesn't have to do with what kind of skill trees or leveling the game uses.

But at the heart of it, what really defines an RPG is the game play of experiencing the world as your own character. Role playing is about creating an avatar that is an extension of yourself. And clearly Lara is her own self defined character, not the players. So TR is not and never will be an RPG.

Having said that, love interests and/or relationships are not bound to the RPG genre alone. We see it all the time in any action adventure or story driven game. Or any linear and pre-scripted game. Like I said before, it's about the character development. In games like Assassin's Creed, Prince of Persia, Uncharted, Alan Wake (to name a few) the story portrays characters as real people who have feelings for other people.

Did keeping the choice to pursue those romances away from the player and having it locked in a pre-scripted story diminish the quality or players experience in any way?

So a romance shouldn't be possible "only if it's the players choice" in an RPG experience. Linear games are still enjoyable when the player allows themselves to go along for the ride and see where the writer takes them and what discoveries they bring of of the character in that adventure :wave:

I get what you're saying, but what we're arguing is that it just would not work for a game like TR, for a variety of reasons :)

AdobeArtist
11th Jun 2014, 17:34
I don't disagree. But that wasn't our point :)


So what was your point? :scratch:



I get what you're saying, but it just would not work for a game like TR, for a variety of reasons :)

And I challenge that assertion; really now there's no reason a romance can't fit in Lara's life. More to the point, there's no reason Lara shouldn't have the opportunity to experience feelings and attraction ;) :whistle:

In other words it would SO work :cool:

BridgetFisher
11th Jun 2014, 17:39
So what was your point? :scratch:



And I challenge that assertion; really now there's no reason a romance can't fit in Lara's life. More to the point, there's no reason Lara shouldn't have the opportunity to experience feelings and attraction ;) :whistle:

In other words it would SO work :cool:

I would like a romantic sub plot in the game very much to make Lara Croft seem real, I mean if she needs therapy then she should be able to have a love interest like in Mass Effect. Games with drama people like because people like romance. <3

Driber
11th Jun 2014, 17:54
So what was your point? :scratch:

That no one is saying "a relationship will by definition hurt your career", but instead "romancing doesn't fit a game like TR".

And this has been echoed by the devs themselves on numerous of occasions.


And I challenge that assertion; really now there's no reason a romance can't fit in Lara's life.

Well it doesn't fit, at least not in this point in her life. Romance isn't for everyone and at all times.

Maybe when Lara is retired she'll think about settling down :D

Yeah, yeah, I hear ya - why would I "deny Lara the wonderful experience of love". Well, I dun care. She ain't real, dude. She can remain a celibate until she's 70 for all I care :p


More to the point, there's no reason Lara shouldn't have the opportunity to experience feelings and attraction ;) :whistle:

In other words it would SO work :cool:

Again, no one is arguing that Lara has no business flirting with people. So you're preaching to the choir :p

BridgetFisher
11th Jun 2014, 17:58
Well it doesn't. Romance isn't for everyone and at all times during one's life.

Maybe when Lara is 60 and retired she'll think about settling down :p :D


No, No, No, its more about the tension the romance means not getting the other person but getting very close, the tension! Ooooo, that would be awesome! If it doesnt happen is ok, but romantic subplots I always like in games like RE with Leon and Ada wong, its a nice balance not to over done or lovey dovey.

Driber
11th Jun 2014, 18:04
I agree, in other games it added something :)

AdobeArtist
11th Jun 2014, 18:20
I agree, in other games it added something :)

And it can add something in TR as well ;)

Driber
11th Jun 2014, 20:12
http://driber.net/os/deadhorse.gif

:whistle: :p :D

Psychomorph
11th Jun 2014, 20:30
my only fear is that in the new game they introduce a love interest for Lara
in my opinion that is a bad idea.

Didn't you pay attention in the trailer? Lara put an arrow in the back of the skull of her love interest. Deal done, nothing to fear.

AdobeArtist
11th Jun 2014, 20:34
http://driber.net/os/deadhorse.gif

:whistle: :p :D

why so coy? ;) :p

LARALOVERnr1
11th Jun 2014, 22:32
...She already had a love interest in the previous game, so what's the big deal? Personally, I'd prefer to see as little sidecharacters as possible. The whole crew was just useless and annoying as hell Imo.

Metalrocks
12th Jun 2014, 02:03
im not saying TR should become a full RPG game but i still like the selection of reactions/dialog we had available in AOD. just small stuff that didnt change lara who she is and had no real effect on the story as well.

just like AA said, romance for lara can so work well in TR and add something to it. :D

so, you can bring out the beating dead horse for me as well. :p

Scion's_Eye
12th Jun 2014, 02:37
*rises from the grave*

Just wanted to put my own two cents here. I think with this "Lara is developing" jargon is utter baloney. The other games didn't need Lara's story to be stretched over two titles just "developing" her feelings. I like the added touch but I feel like this reboot is wearing her thin.
Personally I love being thrown in a game where all you do for the first few minutes is GO and get thrown into the experience.
TBH I thought TR9 focused too much on feelings and kept it wherever you go (yelling each time she got hurt, panting like crazy)... it was just excessive.

Just bring me the action back, she's not a dramatic girl who gets goo-goo eyes for anyone, no matter what gender they are.
Fingers crossed for a decent title....

AdobeArtist
12th Jun 2014, 03:37
...She already had a love interest in the previous game, so what's the big deal? Personally, I'd prefer to see as little sidecharacters as possible. The whole crew was just useless and annoying as hell Imo.

ummm... who was this? :scratch::scratch:

Metalrocks
12th Jun 2014, 03:40
*rises from the grave*

Just wanted to put my own two cents here. I think with this "Lara is developing" jargon is utter baloney. The other games didn't need Lara's story to be stretched over two titles just "developing" her feelings. I like the added touch but I feel like this reboot is wearing her thin.
Personally I love being thrown in a game where all you do for the first few minutes is GO and get thrown into the experience.
TBH I thought TR9 focused too much on feelings and kept it wherever you go (yelling each time she got hurt, panting like crazy)... it was just excessive.

Just bring me the action back, she's not a dramatic girl who gets goo-goo eyes for anyone, no matter what gender they are.
Fingers crossed for a decent title....

but these are the emotions that made this tomb raider so special and well received. her pain is pretty much what defines lara who she will become later on.

AdobeArtist
12th Jun 2014, 03:42
but these are the emotions that made this tomb raider so special and well received. her pain is pretty much what defines lara who she will become later on.

No pain, no gain (in media and community reception) ;)

Metalrocks
12th Jun 2014, 03:50
No pain, no gain (in media and community reception) ;)

for some odd reason i had to think of this scene.
e1CEYgMNyj4

maybe this should have been done to lara to make her to a ass kicking survivor :p

Psycho_Kenshin
12th Jun 2014, 03:53
I hope we see more humor and fun in the adventure than the grim trailer here shows, but I'm sure the game will have a wide variety not covered by this cutscene. I mainly hope this game remembers Lara is a thrillseeking artifact hunting adventurer, who is witty and fun. She can have emotions and issues etc, but don't make it full-on tortured vigilante a'la Batman. So I agree with you on her being less emotional and more confident in this one. And keep fun in the mix.

As for the relationship thing, I'd actually find it refreshing if Lara had a fling in one of these games. Male action heroes often get the girl, I get why people are protective of Lara's character but for true equality it should be no big deal if she gets with somebody. But of course, it would be a big news story online if she did, it's an interesting culture we have.

I agree her being lovesick and devoting much time to a relationship wouldn't fit well into the plot of an adventure, but I wouldn't mind seeing a more fun or less serious flirty sexy relationship with Lara. Let Lara get laid, it's 2014 folks. Her getting laid is a lot less odd than killing hundreds of people. ;)

Scion's_Eye
12th Jun 2014, 03:56
but these are the emotions that made this tomb raider so special and well received. her pain is pretty much what defines lara who she will become later on.

Her pain has been from the people who betrayed her in the past as well as her personal family history. Kicking and screaming because she bumped her elbow on a rock is not the Tomb Raider I remember.

The emotions from the previous games were more along the lines of "Do I reveal this treasure for the world, or keep it hidden? Should I release an indestructible power to answer my own questions?" Even the movies got that concept right.
It didn't need to be explicitly put out on the table for people to go to a knee-jerk response as video games make you do nowadays. These questions actually made the gamer wonder what would've happened if they did take the alternate route and understand what a tough decision it was to make.

Metalrocks
12th Jun 2014, 04:18
Her pain has been from the people who betrayed her in the past as well as her personal family history. Kicking and screaming because she bumped her elbow on a rock is not the Tomb Raider I remember.

The emotions from the previous games were more along the lines of "Do I reveal this treasure for the world, or keep it hidden? Should I release an indestructible power to answer my own questions?" Even the movies got that concept right.
It didn't need to be explicitly put out on the table for people to go to a knee-jerk response as video games make you do nowadays. These questions actually made the gamer wonder what would've happened if they did take the alternate route and understand what a tough decision it was to make.

i think you are aware that this is a reboot of lara and that the 2013 version is an origin of who she becomes.
they made these changes and i think they did the right choice by showing how vulnerable she is. this was after all her first adventure that just happened unexpectedly and wasnt prepared for it at all. so its obvious that she needs help to deal with these horrific incidents she went through. these are the emotions that made her human and now more people can relate to her. if they would have made lara as in previous titles, i dont think it would have sold well or even received well. its not like lara does not want to raid tombs anymore.

Tihocan
12th Jun 2014, 04:46
... I think with this "Lara is developing" jargon is utter baloney. The other games didn't need Lara's story to be stretched over two titles just "developing" her feelings...

No, because back then all you needed was a comic book cut-out, gun toting, indestructible superhero to play a game.
Because when Lara was born she backflipped into the doctor's arms threatening "don't you think you've seen enough!?" before handstand vaulting over his head and waggle-walking out the door.

This isn't the Tomb Raider it was before - it's a reboob.

Glob forbid we add a realistic level of humanity to anything.

d1n0_xD
12th Jun 2014, 04:47
I hope we see more humor and fun in the adventure than the grim trailer here shows, but I'm sure the game will have a wide variety not covered by this cutscene. I mainly hope this game remembers Lara is a thrillseeking artifact hunting adventurer, who is witty and fun.

I too hope there will be witty one-liners and sarcasm from Lara, like in Legend :D And if we had supporting characters, a la Zip and Alistair, it can go beyond cutscenes, they could talk while we play, not too much, just to add a little backstory or information, or even comment on what's Lara's seeing, like in Legend :D

DamianGraham
12th Jun 2014, 17:11
This may need to be communicated more effectively as I notice the gaming community is not seeing that angle about how critical emotional development is in gameplay or how the word "rise" is being used in this instance. She kinda did that before in the last game. Batman did rise, but only once. I think this is what people are noticing about the game simply from the "name". A name is everything today, often people dont look past a titles "name" or the "box art" and will just pass right by it on the shelf to another product. This is where marketing could be key in communicating the importance of emotional development in the game industry?

Rise doesn't necessarily mean that she is only just becoming. She is already The Tomb Raider by the end of the last game, I don't understand why everyone is letting the therapy scene get to them so much, did they not notice that while she was sitting there, the rest of the trailer showcased her running, jumping, nearly falling to her death, climbing, shooting a dude in the head, and finding a big ass ruin? Wherever you're hearing these comments must be from a website like IGN or something, because I know the majority of the gaming community can't be so narrow sighted as to miss the rest of that trailer. Back to the "Rise" title. She's already Tomb Raider, but one can rise even higher than where they are at through an act or series of acts. Her story arc hasn't been completed.... You saw her leaving the island in the last game, Why does that automatically entitle everyone to think she is now a bad ass? People are looking for the Lara that once was, the one that didn't emphasize character development. This is not that Lara, and it's really a shame that people limit themselves to the game simply because they disagree with a teaser trailer, and allow everyone else to form their opinions for them. Try things for yourself before deciding based on what hearsay dictates.

Scion's_Eye
13th Jun 2014, 02:04
i think you are aware that this is a reboot of lara and that the 2013 version is an origin of who she becomes.
they made these changes and i think they did the right choice by showing how vulnerable she is. this was after all her first adventure that just happened unexpectedly and wasnt prepared for it at all. so its obvious that she needs help to deal with these horrific incidents she went through. these are the emotions that made her human and now more people can relate to her. if they would have made lara as in previous titles, i dont think it would have sold well or even received well. its not like lara does not want to raid tombs anymore.


That's the whole point, she isn't vulnerable. That's her whole character that they're changing. Might as well say they're using TR as a brand name rather than bringing a rebooted game.
I'll have to disagree with you on the sales, since it's a series with a female protagonist (which hasn't been done in a while), and an HD remake on multi-platforms... and, of course, boobs. Would've made a lot of sales regardless.


No, because back then all you needed was a comic book cut-out, gun toting, indestructible superhero to play a game.
Because when Lara was born she backflipped into the doctor's arms threatening "don't you think you've seen enough!?" before handstand vaulting over his head and waggle-walking out the door.

This isn't the Tomb Raider it was before - it's a reboob.

Glob forbid we add a realistic level of humanity to anything.

:lol: At the doctor scenario.

But as I mentioned above, if you're not going to make her Lara Croft, then make another game. That's why they took the Tomb Raider title, to use the character of Lara Croft. If it's not Lara Croft then it's not Tomb Raider. :hmm:

As for your humanity quote, I pose the question: Why do you want her to be realistic? The big picture: She's not. I don't play video games to be a loner in my room to voice my feelings to a game, not TR anyway. That was never the main focus of Tomb Raider, and I certainly don't want it to be.
People play games where an alternate reality exists - it doesn't necessarily have to be relate-able, and often good games are not. You find familiarity in it's own niche... just seems like it's too explicit in this series.

Metalrocks
13th Jun 2014, 02:49
That's the whole point, she isn't vulnerable. That's her whole character that they're changing. Might as well say they're using TR as a brand name rather than bringing a rebooted game.
I'll have to disagree with you on the sales, since it's a series with a female protagonist (which hasn't been done in a while), and an HD remake on multi-platforms... and, of course, boobs. Would've made a lot of sales regardless.



:lol: At the doctor scenario.

But as I mentioned above, if you're not going to make her Lara Croft, then make another game. That's why they took the Tomb Raider title, to use the character of Lara Croft. If it's not Lara Croft then it's not Tomb Raider. :hmm:

As for your humanity quote, I pose the question: Why do you want her to be realistic? The big picture: She's not. I don't play video games to be a loner in my room to voice my feelings to a game, not TR anyway. That was never the main focus of Tomb Raider, and I certainly don't want it to be.
People play games where an alternate reality exists - it doesn't necessarily have to be relate-able, and often good games are not. You find familiarity in it's own niche... just seems like it's too explicit in this series.

i think it woulndt have sold well with or without boobies. generally the sales of TR werent that sky high as with the original nearly 20 years ago. people wanted to have a change after 8 titles. after all eidos fired people after underworld because people werent happy with the title. it didnt really offer anything different or new. even i wanted to have a change in the series and im glad that CD finally pulled it off and offered us something fresh and unique. i mean, you cant deny that TR9 did very well and sold well. hell, it even got new fans or people who gave up on TR came back again because of these changes.
and yes, she is vulnerable. or are you telling me her reaction towards amanda was too emotional or when she had to kill her own mother in underworld?

and to answer your question about why we want her to be more real:
these days you want to know who you play and therefor you want to see how the character develops.
look at max payne. would you feel the same if they would have not shown why he became who is now? or adam jenson, ezio, connor, kenway, martin walker from spec ops the line, booker from bioshock infinite and many more.
they are being portrait as humans, not robots who have no feelings.
you make it sound like having emotions cant make you to who you are. lara is still a tomb raider but she is human after all. yes, she is not real but as i mentioned before, she (and others) is being portrait as a human being.
now after her horrific experience she will get stronger and confident and we all know why. this would have never worked if they would have shown her without any emotions.
it is lara croft we are playing. she is still curious about raiding and kicks ass.

@402
reported

Scion's_Eye
13th Jun 2014, 04:17
i think it woulndt have sold well with or without boobies. generally the sales of TR werent that sky high as with the original nearly 20 years ago. people wanted to have a change after 8 titles. after all eidos fired people after underworld because people werent happy with the title. it didnt really offer anything different or new. even i wanted to have a change in the series and im glad that CD finally pulled it off and offered us something fresh and unique. i mean, you cant deny that TR9 did very well and sold well. hell, it even got new fans or people who gave up on TR came back again because of these changes.
and yes, she is vulnerable. or are you telling me her reaction towards amanda was too emotional or when she had to kill her own mother in underworld?

and to answer your question about why we want her to be more real:
these days you want to know who you play and therefor you want to see how the character develops.
look at max payne. would you feel the same if they would have not shown why he became who is now? or adam jenson, ezio, connor, kenway, martin walker from spec ops the line, booker from bioshock infinite and many more.
they are being portrait as humans, not robots who have no feelings.
you make it sound like having emotions cant make you to who you are. lara is still a tomb raider but she is human after all. yes, she is not real but as i mentioned before, she (and others) is being portrait as a human being.
now after her horrific experience she will get stronger and confident and we all know why. this would have never worked if they would have shown her without any emotions.
it is lara croft we are playing. she is still curious about raiding and kicks ass.

@402
reported

Okay okay, I think you're misreading me, I'll explain. I actually loved Legend, emotions and all. With the recent title the fact she was under stress of the situation wasn't a problem.. it was just the constant gasping, the heavy breathing, the exaggerated cut scenes of her yelling while bandaging a wound or muttering to herself - it's not that I want it gone, but rather very minimized for the next game. Lara is a strong woman, who was shown not to bow down to pain or love interests, but rather challenge them and say "bring it" and all the whining took away from that significantly. Made her seem too vulnerable.

As for other games, and even Lara's previous titles, what I'm saying is that emotions were not the main focus. Take the beginning of Last of Us, for example, I wasn't sad because I can relate to losing a child, but rather the concept of losing a child is a pretty sad thing in general. The game wasn't pressing me in "Oh look at Joel, look at him crying, look at what turmoil he's going through". The event just happened, and the emotions follow naturally.
Just like in Legend you don't see Lara crying about her mother for two minutes and going through depression because of it and screaming into the air "GOD WHY???!!!" She held herself together and as soon as you see her accepting the past and getting straight back to business you're nearly overflowing in feels by the credits.
That's what I want in the next Tomb Raider.

Metalrocks
13th Jun 2014, 04:29
Okay okay, I think you're misreading me, I'll explain. I actually loved Legend, emotions and all. With the recent title the fact she was under stress of the situation wasn't a problem.. it was just the constant gasping, the heavy breathing, the exaggerated cut scenes of her yelling while bandaging a wound or muttering to herself - it's not that I want it gone, but rather very minimized for the next game. Lara is a strong woman, who was shown not to bow down to pain or love interests, but rather challenge them and say "bring it" and all the whining took away from that significantly. Made her seem too vulnerable.

As for other games, and even Lara's previous titles, what I'm saying is that emotions were not the main focus. Take the beginning of Last of Us, for example, I wasn't sad because I can relate to losing a child, but rather the concept of losing a child is a pretty sad thing in general. The game wasn't pressing me in "Oh look at Joel, look at him crying, look at what turmoil he's going through". The event just happened, and the emotions follow naturally.
Just like in Legend you don't see Lara crying about her mother for two minutes and going through depression because of it and screaming into the air "GOD WHY???!!!" She held herself together and as soon as you see her accepting the past and getting straight back to business you're nearly overflowing in feels by the credits.
That's what I want in the next Tomb Raider.

ah, now i understand. :)
i cant give any comment regarding TLoU since it never came out for the pc.

well, lets just see how much of it will be in this upcoming title. i dont want to go away completely but it could be reduced more since lara is more aware of it what she is going to do.

AdobeArtist
13th Jun 2014, 04:41
That's the whole point, she isn't vulnerable. That's her whole character that they're changing. Might as well say they're using TR as a brand name rather than bringing a rebooted game.
I'll have to disagree with you on the sales, since it's a series with a female protagonist (which hasn't been done in a while), and an HD remake on multi-platforms... and, of course, boobs. Would've made a lot of sales regardless.





But as I mentioned above, if you're not going to make her Lara Croft, then make another game. That's why they took the Tomb Raider title, to use the character of Lara Croft. If it's not Lara Croft then it's not Tomb Raider. :hmm:

As for your humanity quote, I pose the question: Why do you want her to be realistic? The big picture: She's not. I don't play video games to be a loner in my room to voice my feelings to a game, not TR anyway. That was never the main focus of Tomb Raider, and I certainly don't want it to be.
People play games where an alternate reality exists - it doesn't necessarily have to be relate-able, and often good games are not. You find familiarity in it's own niche... just seems like it's too explicit in this series.

They're not changing Lara's character. They're evolving it, and there's continent of difference. She still has her strength and courage, but within a more modern context; that courage isn't the absence of fear, but the perseverance to confront it and overcome the challenges it presents. In other words to act in spite of the fear. It's the contrast of external action from internal forces.

To actually change her into an entirely different being, they'd have to rewrite her as a young girl who had ambitions to be a rap star, but who's parents pushed her into archaeology because it's tradition and expected of the family name. So she does it, but only to make money so she can one day fund her own recording studio. Oh and her experiences in a bad neighborhood while growing up presents her as a jaded racist, who doesn't mind stealing from people so long as it's just from those she deems as "inferior". And let's throw in the occasional drug habit and couriering of substances just for good measure.

Now THAT is a complete personality mutation... or just one example.

The reason what we have in the reboot IS still the Lara we know is because it doesn't take away from anything she had before. Instead it adds to that with context that works works synchronously with the foundation. This all combines and layers over into a more complex person, or a more rounded out version to the character we knew before, making Lara both familiar and fresh for a new era.

And you think this only happened to Lara. This happens to every fictional character who's been around for more than a decade. Look at how many times Superman has been reinvented (been around for over 75 years) and Batman and Spiderman. They've all kept their core foundations while still adapting to the times they continue to exist in, to reflect trends and new outlooks.

Because let me tell you, if they hadn't they would have all stagnated and people from generations later wouldn't recognize their names today. And the last thing we want is for Lara to fade into obscurity, irrelevant and forgotten. Which she was in danger of becoming before the reboot. We simply can't portray her as she was in 1996 any more than you can have the same Batman from 1939.

Scion's_Eye
13th Jun 2014, 05:06
They're not changing Lara's character. They're evolving it, and there's continent of difference. She still has her strength and courage, but within a more modern context; that courage isn't the absence of fear, but the perseverance to confront it and overcome the challenges it presents. In other words to act in spite of the fear. It's the contrast of external action from internal forces.

To actually change her into an entirely different being, they'd have to rewrite her as a young girl who had ambitions to be a rap star, but who's parents pushed her into archaeology because it's tradition and expected of the family name. So she does it, but only to make money so she can one day fund her own recording studio. Oh and her experiences in a bad neighborhood while growing up presents her as a jaded racist, who doesn't mind stealing from people so long as it's just from those she deems as "inferior". And let's throw in the occasional drug habit and couriering of substances just for good measure.

Now THAT is a complete personality mutation... or just one example.

The reason what we have in the reboot IS still the Lara we know is because it doesn't take away from anything she had before. Instead it adds to that with context that works works synchronously with the foundation. This all combines and layers over into a more complex person, or a more rounded out version to the character we knew before, making Lara both familiar and fresh for a new era.

And you think this only happened to Lara. This happens to every fictional character who's been around for more than a decade. Look at how many times Superman has been reinvented (been around for over 75 years) and Batman and Spiderman. They've all kept their core foundations while still adapting to the times they continue to exist in, to reflect trends and new outlooks.

Because let me tell you, if they hadn't they would have all stagnated and people from generations later wouldn't recognize their names today. And the last thing we want is for Lara to fade into obscurity, irrelevant and forgotten. Which she was in danger of becoming before the reboot. We simply can't portray her as she was in 1996 any more than you can have the same Batman from 1939.

My whole point is that they are taking away from her character in my opinion. I'm not forcing you or anyone to agree with me; you think they've stuck to her core values, I disagree. Too often does is happen when you see game developers claim to "evolve" a character into a certain direction - which personally made me feel a little uneasy playing the recent title, and all I fear is that the next game will bring in more of what was disliked in the game just because they broke into a new market of people. I don't want them to fling around Lara using TR like a brand and turn her into something she never was.

Heck, I'm up for change, hence why I'm still following the TR franchise. TR9 just made me uncomfortable in certain situations where I was questioning who this character was, why she was being changed to solely fit the market. I reiterate, she wasn't the character I remember, hence why I voice my fears.

But yeah... a rap star Lara.. that thought gave me a shudder ****

BridgetFisher
13th Jun 2014, 08:57
My whole point is that they are taking away from her character in my opinion. I'm not forcing you or anyone to agree with me; you think they've stuck to her core values, I disagree. Too often does is happen when you see game developers claim to "evolve" a character into a certain direction - which personally made me feel a little uneasy playing the recent title, and all I fear is that the next game will bring in more of what was disliked in the game just because they broke into a new market of people. I don't want them to fling around Lara using TR like a brand and turn her into something she never was.

Heck, I'm up for change, hence why I'm still following the TR franchise. TR9 just made me uncomfortable in certain situations where I was questioning who this character was, why she was being changed to solely fit the market. I reiterate, she wasn't the character I remember, hence why I voice my fears.

But yeah... a rap star Lara.. that thought gave me a shudder ****

This is what Im afraid of. The new Tomb Raider is nothing like the old once hence why the last game struggled to make a profit. If the character was more like the original games those copies would have flown off the shelves. So many people didnt like the Tomb Raider 2013 version that they may not even buy this version. It became a joke on game forums using a bow or creating weapons from thin air if their going for the realistic route. The last one seemed determined to remove all the things that made Lara Croft an Icon, from her dual pistols, the tombs, it becoming just a generic cover based shooter. After seeing how awesome the E3 demo was of Lara Croft Temple of Osiris, Ive resigned myself to the fact that the Rise of the Tomb Raider wont have mummies, or giant skeletons to fight, it will just be an even greater division from who the character used to be that became a gaming icon. Also the shaky camera made me feel sick in the last one, all those strange added hollywood effects to make the game look better when the game looked very nice without it.

Everyone saw the bow in the trailer, its 2014 there are silencers, noone uses bows anymore, or maybe someone should go tell every military on the planet to get rid of guns and use bows, but I dont see that happening.

Now per statements from the devs Lara croft isnt British, there is no Croft Manor, and who knows what else, but the more of the icon they get rid of the more damage they do to the IP itself since the brand image of the icon is being torn down.

(Im just waiting like everyone else I think to buy any of these Tomb Raider games until she becomes a Tomb Raider, it would be like playing as master chief and he has to find himself to become who he is.... noone would care with him either, gamers just want to play games...)

d1n0_xD
13th Jun 2014, 09:09
This is what Im afraid of. The new Tomb Raider is nothing like the old once hence why the last game struggled to make a profit. If the character was more like the original games those copies would have flown off the shelves. So many people didnt like the Tomb Raider 2013 version that they may not even buy this version. It became a joke on game forums using a bow or creating weapons from thin air if their going for the realistic route. The last one seemed determined to remove all the things that made Lara Croft an Icon, from her dual pistols, the tombs, it becoming just a generic cover based shooter. After seeing how awesome the E3 demo was of Lara Croft Temple of Osiris, Ive resigned myself to the fact that the Rise of the Tomb Raider wont have mummies, or giant skeletons to fight, it will just be an even greater division from who the character used to be that became a gaming icon. Also the shaky camera made me feel sick in the last one, all those strange added hollywood effects to make the game look better when the game looked very nice without it.

Everyone saw the bow in the trailer, its 2014 there are silencers, noone uses bows anymore, or maybe someone should go tell every military on the planet to get rid of guns and use bows, but I dont see that happening.

Now per statements from the devs Lara croft isnt British, there is no Croft Manor, and who knows what else, but the more of the icon they get rid of the more damage they do to the IP itself since the brand image of the icon is being torn down.

(Im just waiting like everyone else I think to buy any of these Tomb Raider games until she becomes a Tomb Raider, it would be like playing as master chief and he has to find himself to become who he is.... noone would care with him either, gamers just want to play games...)

Tomb Raider 2013 was far from struggling to make a profit.

Old Tomb Raiders didn't make weapons out of thin air?

Umm, dual pistols and tombs are not the things that make Lara Croft an icon. The game, sure, but the character, no.

How do you know there won't be skeletons and giant spiders in RotTR? From what I gather, this is the perfect time to introduce supernatural elements into the mix, especially since CD kinda lied about there not being any in TR2013. Sure, they were towards the end game, but still.

What's wrong with the bow, you don't have to use it if you don't want to, and the bow is still important nowadays, regardless of modern weaponry.

BridgetFisher
13th Jun 2014, 09:21
How do you know there won't be skeletons and giant spiders in RotTR? From what I gather, this is the perfect time to introduce supernatural elements into the mix, especially since CD kinda lied about there not being any in TR2013. Sure, they were towards the end game, but still.


I hope there are skeletons or giant spiders, anything creative would be fun! Or ghost pirates on an old ship full of treasure, maybe some kind of half bat half human character or a minotaur! Imagine that Lara going toe to toe with a moniotaur or a cyclops, both things from history which make it archaeological.

d1n0_xD
13th Jun 2014, 09:29
^ Now that is what I would like to see, more of the end-game boss from 2013 game, but at the end of major levels. Done creatively, of course, using the environment, weak spots and stuff :D Maybe even the enemies change their behaviours, or bosses change their strategy mid-health and stuff like that :D

pirate1802
13th Jun 2014, 09:40
...did I just read reboob?

d1n0_xD
13th Jun 2014, 10:07
^ I'm afraid you did XD

Scion's_Eye
13th Jun 2014, 15:46
Tomb Raider 2013 was far from struggling to make a profit.

Old Tomb Raiders didn't make weapons out of thin air?

Umm, dual pistols and tombs are not the things that make Lara Croft an icon. The game, sure, but the character, no.

How do you know there won't be skeletons and giant spiders in RotTR? From what I gather, this is the perfect time to introduce supernatural elements into the mix, especially since CD kinda lied about there not being any in TR2013. Sure, they were towards the end game, but still.

What's wrong with the bow, you don't have to use it if you don't want to, and the bow is still important nowadays, regardless of modern weaponry.

They actually are what made her character. The game and the character complement one another. It wouldn't be Tomb Raider if the main character didn't raid tombs, that's not only exclusive to gameplay but you also have to have the main character want to, as well as feel the need to, raid tombs.
I have no idea when you started playing the TR franchise, or how many titles you've played, but in every title (with the exception of Legend) features Lara on the game cover with pistols.... kinda says something about her main weapon, don't you think? It's like having Scorpion from MK not using his hand rope grapple but instead his main move is to shoot fireballs. It's seriously that big of a difference.

Metalrocks
13th Jun 2014, 16:32
the bow is still more silent than a gun with a silencer. plus, the bow doenst create an flash. especially when you are in a dark cave. i see no problem with the bow. its a cool weapon and people still like shooting them. even when its just for sports.

also, it did sell more then underworld. unless i missed something here.

AdobeArtist
13th Jun 2014, 16:40
the bow is still more silent than a gun with a silencer. plus, the bow doenst create an flash. especially when you are in a dark cave. i see no problem with the bow. its a cool weapon and people still like shooting them. even when its just for sports.

also, it did sell more then underworld. unless i missed something here.

Even Rambo used a bow and that was in a modern setting. Compound bows can still be very effective weapons in the right hands.

Just ask Oliver Queen ;)

Tecstar70
14th Jun 2014, 11:17
The bow is a natural choice for Lara isn't it? Re: Sisters of Artemis?

Metalrocks
14th Jun 2014, 11:56
Even Rambo used a bow and that was in a modern setting. Compound bows can still be very effective weapons in the right hands.

Just ask Oliver Queen ;)

true and kicked ass with it. but part 1 is still the best. :thumb:

and i have no idea who this queen guy is.

BridgetFisher
14th Jun 2014, 14:42
the bow is still more silent than a gun with a silencer. plus, the bow doenst create an flash. especially when you are in a dark cave. i see no problem with the bow. its a cool weapon and people still like shooting them. even when its just for sports.

also, it did sell more then underworld. unless i missed something here.

People also like muskets... :D Its just weird this is 2014 plus gamers are high tech people noone thinks of a bow as a serious weapon in the modern world, not one first world military sends out their armies with bows to go fight the enemy.

I just dont get the bow, noone would use that today, and Rambo is just a movie, Id gladly take the bow if we can run around machinegunning everyone as the kill count rises like Rambo, Id gladly sit through the silly idea of using a bow if I knew I could ditch it for that sweet MG he fires, speaking of Rambo is a hated game, but I liked it.

Metalrocks
14th Jun 2014, 15:04
People also like muskets... :D Its just weird this is 2014 plus gamers are high tech people noone thinks of a bow as a serious weapon in the modern world, not one first world military sends out their armies with bows to go fight the enemy.

I just dont get the bow, noone would use that today, and Rambo is just a movie, Id gladly take the bow if we can run around machinegunning everyone as the kill count rises like Rambo, Id gladly sit through the silly idea of using a bow if I knew I could ditch it for that sweet MG he fires, speaking of Rambo is a hated game, but I liked it.

lol. but you are not forced to use the bow. except for the occasional open doors or to shoot a rope arrow. true that the military doenst use bows but lara is also not in the military. i just guess that she just sees it as a life saver since it came in handy for her on the island. plus, being her first weapon she found that actually makes sense since in a survival situation, you do make a bow to hunt for food.

so i guess you didnt like the bow in crysis 3 either. even when the game was pretty average, using the bow was actually fun.

Driber
14th Jun 2014, 15:06
...She already had a love interest in the previous game, so what's the big deal? Personally, I'd prefer to see as little sidecharacters as possible. The whole crew was just useless and annoying as hell Imo.

You must be mistaken. Lara had no love interest in the previous game.


im not saying TR should become a full RPG game but i still like the selection of reactions/dialog we had available in AOD. just small stuff that didnt change lara who she is and had no real effect on the story as well.

^ Exactly my point ;)


just like AA said, romance for lara can so work well in TR and add something to it. :D

Just like the devs said, romance wouldn't work well for Lara.


so, you can bring out the beating dead horse for me as well. :p

Nah. For you I would need an image of a horse that has been pulverized into freaking dust.

:lol:


As for the relationship thing, I'd actually find it refreshing if Lara had a fling in one of these games. Male action heroes often get the girl, I get why people are protective of Lara's character but for true equality it should be no big deal if she gets with somebody.

The thing is, it has absolutely nothing to do with equality. This is about someone's personality. If Lara has been known to have flings in previous games, the fans wouldn't have a problem with it.

You can't force someone to change their personality and expect them to go from being a loner to an extrovert just because some crowd doesn't like the loner type. That's called pandering.


Let Lara get laid, it's 2014 folks.

Oh my lord.

Yeah........... let's not.


Her getting laid is a lot less odd than killing hundreds of people. ;)

That's a straw man argument. No one here is claiming that sexual content in a videogame is weird.

In fact, I'm sure that most of us are actually condemning the hypocrisy that sex/nudity is being treated like a cardinal sin while violence is glorified in videogame.


This isn't the Tomb Raider it was before - it's a reboob.

:lol:


Old Tomb Raiders didn't make weapons out of thin air?

lol, exactly. If anyone is seriously complaining about TR9 suddenly having weapons popping out of thin air, they sure have a very short memory :p


Umm, dual pistols and tombs are not the things that make Lara Croft an icon. The game, sure, but the character, no.

Uhm, yes they are.

Without tombs there is no tomb raider. Without tomb raider there is no Lara.

And as I argued before, the dual guns are as iconic to Lara (as the tomb raider) as the master sword and hylian shield are iconic to Link from Zelda, or how the kunai on a rope is iconic to Scorpio from Mortal Combat.

AdobeArtist
14th Jun 2014, 15:24
true and kicked ass with it. but part 1 is still the best. :thumb:

and i have no idea who this queen guy is.

What? No. No. NO!! Don't tell me you don't know...

width=500

Say it ain't so :mad::mad:


People also like muskets... :D Its just weird this is 2014 plus gamers are high tech people noone thinks of a bow as a serious weapon in the modern world,



Crysis 3, Farcry 3, Assassin's Creed 3, and of course Tomb Raider. I think you underestimate just how much gamers consider the bow as a serious weapon. And before you counter argue about "games in historical settings" need I point out how Crysis 3 and Farcry 3 are both in modern context. Crysis 3 even goes beyond just modern, featuring super advanced futuristic super soldiers.

With advanced materials and scientific enhancements, the bow is by no means out of style.

d1n0_xD
14th Jun 2014, 15:36
People also like muskets... :D Its just weird this is 2014 plus gamers are high tech people noone thinks of a bow as a serious weapon in the modern world, not one first world military sends out their armies with bows to go fight the enemy.

I just dont get the bow, noone would use that today, and Rambo is just a movie, Id gladly take the bow if we can run around machinegunning everyone as the kill count rises like Rambo, Id gladly sit through the silly idea of using a bow if I knew I could ditch it for that sweet MG he fires, speaking of Rambo is a hated game, but I liked it.

Lara's not an army. People like the bow. You don't have to use it. And I'm pretty sure compound bows are the thing, especially how customizable arrows can be. Maybe not the army, but black ops?

Metalrocks
14th Jun 2014, 15:42
Just like the devs said, romance wouldn't work well for Lara.



Nah. For you I would need an image of a horse that has been pulverized into freaking dust.

:lol:


how would the devs know if they havent tried it :p :rasp: .
dont bother to answer that. you know that i like to see it happen but accept it if it not happening at all.

and shame about the horse. such lovely animals. :(



What? No. No. NO!! Don't tell me you don't know...

width=500

Say it ain't so :mad::mad:



if thats from a tv show, then i really dont know it. i dont watch tv so im the wrong person to talk to. unless you talk about futurama or south park, then im your man because i own them on dvd. :D

AdobeArtist
14th Jun 2014, 15:47
Oh and other advantages I forgot to mention. It's already been said how silent and precise bows are (and no muzzle flash). Here's something else, there are no overly complex mechanisms to break down so they never jam up or misfire. You can dunk them in water and sand and they'll still fire perfectly. Very few guns have that same reliability.

Driber
14th Jun 2014, 16:04
People also like muskets... :D Its just weird this is 2014 plus gamers are high tech people

Yeah and in 2014 bows are hot!

And gamers being high tech people is just a generalization. COD fanboys maybe :whistle:


noone thinks of a bow as a serious weapon in the modern world, not one first world military sends out their armies with bows to go fight the enemy.

On Yamatai, Lara was completely cut off from the "modern world". There was no modern military force on the island. These conditions made the bow a highly effective stealth kill weapon, which kept Lara alive on more than one occasion.


I just dont get the bow, noone would use that today, and Rambo is just a movie

And Tomb Raider is just a fictional videogame.


how would the devs know if they havent tried it :p :rasp:

By DEFINITION, the devs get to dictate what works and what doesn't work for the fictional characters they create.


dont bother to answer that. you know that i like to see it happen but accept it if it not happening at all.

Too late :D


and shame about the horse. such lovely animals. :(

They make excellent Swedish meat balls, though.


Oh and other advantages I forgot to mention. It's already been said how silent and precise bows are (and no muzzle flash). Here's something else, there are no overly complex mechanisms to break down so they never jam up or misfire. You can dunk them in water and sand and they'll still fire perfectly. Very few guns have that same reliability.

Spot on! :thumb:

Metalrocks
14th Jun 2014, 16:59
Oh and other advantages I forgot to mention. It's already been said how silent and precise bows are (and no muzzle flash). Here's something else, there are no overly complex mechanisms to break down so they never jam up or misfire. You can dunk them in water and sand and they'll still fire perfectly. Very few guns have that same reliability.

true. havent thought about that.

LARALOVERnr1
14th Jun 2014, 17:40
You must be mistaken. Lara had no love interest in the previous game.

I'm counting Alex as one. He clearly had a crush on her and when she found out and he said he was going to sacrifice himself or whatever she gave him a little kiss. Had CD put more effort into their rather shallow sidecharacters, Alex would've been the perfectly cliché star-crossed lover. And she had her semi-lesbian relationship with Sam ofcourse.

I personally really have a problem with adding RPG elements to Tomb Raider. It would just ruïn the RPG vibe for me. I don't want Lara to engage in whitty and complex dialogues with a host of different sidecharacters, I just want her to kick ass and be Tomb Raider, doing what a Tomb Raider does best; raiding tombs. If I wanted an RPG, I might as well go play Skyrim or something.

The sidecharacters in Tomb Raider 2013 were terrible IMO and didn't add anything for me. I ignored them when possible and the ''dialogue options'' were unnecessary and silly. Best leave them out next time.

Ofcourse sidecharacters are necessary for a complex and interesting story, but you can create interesting characters with scripted dialogue in cutscenes. No need to make everything interactive IMO.

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
14th Jun 2014, 17:43
And she had her semi-lesbian relationship with Sam ofcourse.


What, WHAT? Preposterous! There's no "of course". Unless I'm missing something, you're making stuff up. :nut:

LARALOVERnr1
14th Jun 2014, 17:52
What, WHAT? Preposterous! There's no "of course". Unless I'm missing something, you're making stuff up. :nut:

You can hear it in the way she screams Sam's name, duh. ;)

Jk, I suppose they're just very good friends, but is an example of a close relationship Lara had in the previous game.

Murphdawg1
14th Jun 2014, 19:15
What? No. No. NO!! Don't tell me you don't know...

width=500

Say it ain't so :mad::mad:



Crysis 3, Farcry 3, Assassin's Creed 3, and of course Tomb Raider. I think you underestimate just how much gamers consider the bow as a serious weapon. And before you counter argue about "games in historical settings" need I point out how Crysis 3 and Farcry 3 are both in modern context. Crysis 3 even goes beyond just modern, featuring super advanced futuristic super soldiers.

With advanced materials and scientific enhancements, the bow is by no means out of style.


Even in The Last Of Us, the bow can be used as a stealth weapon against the infected or other humans.

Error96_
15th Jun 2014, 02:44
Any guy (or girl) that Lara gets with is pretty soon going to become a target of Lara's enemies. They need to have somebody Lara cares about and may have to try to save (but probably fail).

Murphdawg1
15th Jun 2014, 02:51
That's a straw man argument. No one here is claiming that sexual content in a videogame is weird.

In fact, I'm sure that most of us are actually condemning the hypocrisy that sex/nudity is being treated like a cardinal sin while violence is glorified in videogame.


Call it the bad assery effect. Gamers want those "I am awesome moments" which often occur when doing things that one could simply not do in real life and get away with.

BridgetFisher
15th Jun 2014, 03:54
Call it the bad assery effect. Gamers want those "I am awesome moments" which often occur when doing things that one could simply not do in real life and get away with.

This is why I like the adventure games, I want to go to places I cant go irl or in other games. Its what made Tomb Raider stand out going way way back. The last game just kinda felt like COD with diff themed arenas for combat so it didnt feel very adventure-y.... Some scenes did but they were too few, like scaling that plane, or climbing across buddha statues, we need more of that maybe?

d1n0_xD
15th Jun 2014, 07:54
Call it the bad assery effect. Gamers want those "I am awesome moments" which often occur when doing things that one could simply not do in real life and get away with.

Not all gamers want those moments in all games.