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CyberP
24th May 2014, 17:55
It may be too late as DX4 has been in development for a while now and this is stuff suitable for the design concept stage, but let's propose some subjects that you would like to see present in DX4. At the very least they could provide inspiration for some Ebooks, emails etc.

Parameters:

1. Real world facts are preferred as basis, but not necessary as it is set in the future. Deus Ex should be an educational experience to some degree, even among the fiction. Provide sources if you can. Obviously unproven conspiracies fit in also.
2. Original subjects are also preferred, as in content not touched on before in videogames. Good luck trying to confirm your submission satisfies this parameter either way though.
3. Most important parameter: Has to be suitable for Deus Ex: shady government topics, potential negative side effects of h+, technophobia etc.
Anything that relates to the real world. So no unicorns or flying pigs, unless those things are created using technology of course but still keep it sane please.

By all means, try something different, such as a hilarious email simply for entertainment purposes, just make sure it follows strictly that all important third parameter.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My submission:

Government experimentation in mind control.

Fact or fiction? Fact
New to Deus Ex/videogames? No. The MiB's in Deus Ex 1 were under the influence of mind control/extreme mental conditioning. However, It would be nice to see it expanded upon as a subplot in DX4, or at least mentioned in a document/email/converation whatever.

Based on Project MKUltra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra) and various others. Note: this project is not a conspiracy theory, it is 100% factual. It happened. The documents were officially disclosed to the public.

"In 1977, a Freedom of Information Act request uncovered a cache of 20,000 documents relating to project MKUltra, which led to Senate hearings later that same year. In July 2001 some surviving information regarding MKUltra was officially declassified."

Here is what the project entailed, in short:

"MKUltra used numerous methodologies to manipulate people's mental states and alter brain functions, including the surreptitious administration of drugs (especially LSD) and other chemicals, hypnosis, sensory deprivation, isolation, verbal and sexual abuse, as well as various forms of torture."

It was big as well, and lasted 20+ years (officially):

"The scope of Project MKUltra was broad, with research undertaken at 80 institutions, including 44 colleges and universities, as well as hospitals, prisons and pharmaceutical companies. The CIA operated through these institutions using front organizations, although sometimes top officials at these institutions were aware of the CIA's involvement."

In an effort for unbiased information, I'll state that not all of that was unethical work. For example work was done in Canada too, in which one scientist paid college kids to take part in sensory deprivation experiments willingly (but was also rumoured to have done it unwillingly on infants).

It's likely unethical projects such as this continue today. Only an idiot would rule it out. MKUltra is one of many officially acknowledged unethical projects.

http://sometimesinteresting.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/mkultra-8.jpg

^A young girl subjected to LSD, electro shock torture and sensory deprivation over the course of 6 months.

Other instances of experiments such as these include Nazi experiments and those of the Japanese 731 Unit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731).

Lady_Of_The_Vine
24th May 2014, 22:48
Sometimes lyrics say it all. :cool:

I would add the YT video because the tune is as awesome as the words.. but its a new track so hasn't been uploaded yet. :(
When it has, I'll add. Plus any remixes.


It's a-Coming
Words & Music Natalie Merchant / Indian Love Bride © 2013 ASCAP


It’s a-coming....

Wild fires, dying lakes,
landslides, hurricanes,
apocalypse in store
like nothing ever seen before.

It’s a-coming.

Third-generation refugees,
street mob burning effigies,
revolution, civil war
like nothing ever seen before.

It’s a-coming.

Pale-horse rider come,
blistered by the morning sun,
tell about what he can see,
crystal ball of mercury.

It’s a-coming. It’s gonna come.

Jungle slashed and jungle burned,
the monkeys and the painted birds
climb the vines, the limbs and leaves,
the lungs that let the whole world breathe.

It’s a-coming.

All the ones that failed to thrive,
starved out and buried alive,
something evil, something free,
calamity.

It’s gonna come.

Space Race, the old Cold War,
atom bomb was gonna settle the score.

You wait and see. It’s a long time coming
but it’s a-coming. It’s gonna come.

Third-generation refugees,
street mob burning effigies,
revolution, civil war
like nothing ever seen before.

Like nothing ever seen before....

CyberP
24th May 2014, 23:38
So how would you like to see this present in the game? You give no mention of this.

You want to see the global turmoil come about (Gray death, more terrorism, economic collapse etc), the aftermath of that we see in DX1?

You want to see this song word for word or referenced in a email or some such, maybe the mumblings of a bum?

Or you want the licensed song to actually feature in the game in some way?

Lady_Of_The_Vine
25th May 2014, 00:38
Hehe, perhaps I'm greedy; I like all three options. :p
The song portends the increase in geographical catastrophes due to global warming - its something we can't stop so we will need to adapt to it. This scenario provides a perfect introduction to the Omar; or, rather, the beginnings of. I think its time we know more about these Russian scientists.... and I'm relying on DX4 to deliver the answers. :cool:

CyberP
25th May 2014, 01:50
The song portends the increase in geographical catastrophes due to global warming

So it does.

Unfortunately global warming is not really touched upon in Deus Ex 1 because obviously nothing has happened in that regard in 2052, so it's significance as a subplot or even reference in DX4 (probably set in the time frame of 2028-2040) is questionable, unless you really think it deserves a mention.
Mind you it got a mention in DX:HR.

Personally I'm not sure if catastrophe of that nature IS coming, at least not any time soon. Global warming due to human pollution is still a theory isn't it?
Earth went through a ice age naturally, I don't think global warming (brought about by humans), if it exists, even poses much of a threat. Perhaps it could even help shield us from another ice age (jk).

Temperatures have risen by ~0.5 degrees Celsius in the last 100 years. Could be natural, could be due to pollution. Either way we should be safe for a while yet.

Edit: Hmm, you could be right. This article, if correct, is worth a read: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/12/1206_041206_global_warming.html

Guess I didn't know enough to speak on the topic. More global warming stuff in DX4 sounds good then, maybe more on Panchaea or an Ebook with some real world statistics (same stats we see now, but more exponential rise in the time line of 2010-2027). Educational with a bit of speculative fiction thrown in.

apologies for attempting to downplay the significance of your submission, next time I'll get up to date!

AdrianShephard
25th May 2014, 05:22
Unfortunately global warming is not really touched upon in Deus Ex 1 because obviously nothing has happened in that regard in 2052

I remember there was a newspaper or 2 talking about how a lot of money was being spent trying to keep the rising waters out of New York. You're correct though, not enough on that.

I hope to see more government conspiracies in this new DX as HR was frustratingly lacking. Like you mentioned, brain control is a really interesting subplot that can be expanded. Personally, I want to see more topics on government surveillance and AI's (for some reason, I'm wanting a Minority Report vibe). The beginnings of the Gray Death would be cool to see but I don't want EM to encroach on DX 1's plot too much because (I know I'm an ass) I don't think they have the creativity and writing prowess. The illegal augs business was actually awesome and I hope EM builds on that; maybe they can include government testing on individuals to see tolerance to nanites?

If the game takes place after HR (pretty sure it does), then more on the formation of UNATCO would be welcome. Much of what made the atmosphere in the first game brilliant is the idea that UNATCO (the public face of MJ12) essentially had all jurisdiction --- the beginnings of such a powerful entity should be a major plot point in my opinion.

I feel like EM is getting too into this "social impact of augmentations" and not enough of the age-old conspiracy mojo that is at the heart of the series.

Edit: It just occurred to me that I used "to see" way too much. Sorry, I'm writing on my phone.

I also want a more serious and focused discussion of the Illuminati in DX 4. That plot point felt so forced in HR; almost as if EM knew it wouldn't be Deus Ex without at least some mention of them. If I'm not mistaken, Bob Page was part of the Illuminati at one point so EM could delve into that (off topic a bit, but Bob Page -- with his respective voice actor -- was my favorite part of HR...that and the secret end song).

Real world parallels that could show up in DX 4 are the rise of antibiotic resistant bacteria and diseases. That, coupled with catastrophic natural disasters, could open the door to how FEMA gained such a massive influence in the US. Again, this could lead to the formation of the Northwest Secessionist Forces and later the NSF (this was around 2030 if I recall correctly so this should fit perfectly with a post HR game).

Going back to the government surveillance and documentation, a possible subplot could be about the smallpox eradication program and the connection to human genetic testing (this was supposed to be touched on in DX 1 but was cut. X-files also delves into this).

Lady_Of_The_Vine
25th May 2014, 10:45
Edit: Hmm, you could be right. This article, if correct, is worth a read: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/12/1206_041206_global_warming.html

Guess I didn't know enough to speak on the topic. More global warming stuff in DX4 sounds good then, maybe more on Panchaea or an Ebook with some real world statistics (same stats we see now, but more exponential rise in the time line of 2010-2027). Educational with a bit of speculative fiction thrown in.

apologies for attempting to downplay the significance of your submission, next time I'll get up to date!

No problems.
Global warming is an empirical fact and it is a curse and a blessing, in that people from different cultures will either have to work together or face mutual destruction.
As far as the human species is concerned; this is a long time coming. We have been divided too long.

Enter the Omar. ;)

CyberP
25th May 2014, 11:09
Enter the Omar. ;)

An Omar mention was a long time coming. ;)


The beginnings of the Gray Death would be cool to see but I don't want EM to encroach on DX 1's plot too much because (I know I'm an ass)

Even a dog has it's day :)
Maybe the writers all had an epiphany, and hopefully the designers too. Maybe they end up besting DX1 in every sense of the word...

Lady_Of_The_Vine
25th May 2014, 11:13
I can't help it. :o :D
The Omar inside me just wants us all to get along, unite, and so... We Come One. :cool:

TgU2LyAedqw

CyberP
25th May 2014, 11:15
I crave individualism, instead just an effective system to keep the corrupt in check.

Played System Shock 2? Maybe you would like the Many's idea of unification :p

I see you mention DX and Thief as masterpieces of game design, but no System Shock 2? It's time you played it.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
25th May 2014, 11:28
I crave individualism....

Omar are still individuals.... what makes you think they are not? ;)

sonicsidewinder
25th May 2014, 13:21
Wouldn't mind it to flesh out some things DX1 alludes to.

California Earthquakes. India/Pakistan War. China's Lunar Exploration.

Or some more wacky stuff like the Hengsha Pangu.

Maybe an orbital station connected via space-lift á la Neuromancer. Or would that be "too futuristic"?

Jito463
25th May 2014, 19:05
No problems.
Global warming is an empirical fact and it is a curse and a blessing, in that people from different cultures will either have to work together or face mutual destruction.
As far as the human species is concerned; this is a long time coming. We have been divided too long.

Enter the Omar. ;)

I sincerely hope you're being facetious, or referring specifically to "in-game". Global warming (once called "Global cooling", also now called the sufficiently generic "Global climate-change") is not "empirical fact". If you really believe that, you need to look up the definition of "empirical fact". :rolleyes:

CyberP
25th May 2014, 21:06
Omar are still individuals.... what makes you think they are not? ;)

"Notorious for the extent of their special nano-augmentation, the Omar are not fully individuals, rather, each Omar is crosslinked into one massive consciousness, achieved through the replacement of their frontal lobes with a wireless cortical interface. Thus, if something happens to an Omar, then all Omar will know about it and react accordingly. The Omar expand their ranks through covert recruitment of humans every day (sometimes by force), both augmented and not."

On top of that they all look and sound the same.

Sure they are still individuals but it's way too extreme for me to appreciate.



Maybe an orbital station connected via space-lift á la Neuromancer. Or would that be "too futuristic"?

Too DX:HR? :D Yes, obviously.

AdrianShephard
26th May 2014, 00:57
I sincerely hope you're being facetious, or referring specifically to "in-game". Global warming (once called "Global cooling", also now called the sufficiently generic "Global climate-change") is not "empirical fact". If you really believe that, you need to look up the definition of "empirical fact". :rolleyes:

Really?...

Wow...

WildcatPhoenix
26th May 2014, 03:06
Too DX:HR? :D Yes, obviously.

I wouldn't say an orbital station like Gibson's Freeside is too technologically advanced (if that's what you're implying, not sure if that's the case). After all, several newspapers in DX1 mention interplanetary mass driver deliveries.

I personally want to see more world building (side-stories, news reports, journals, etc about major world events or social issues which have no relevance to the main plot). DXHR's designers deliberately chose to "go small" with the story, but hopefully DX4 can open it up a bit more and start to show us the bigger picture.

CyberP
26th May 2014, 03:58
I wouldn't say an orbital station like Gibson's Freeside is too technologically advanced (if that's what you're implying, not sure if that's the case). After all, several newspapers in DX1 mention interplanetary mass driver deliveries.


NEWSPAPER

Chinese Lunar Mine Operational
APR - Beijing, China

Chinese authorities today announced that their state of the art Zhou Enlai Lunar
Mining Complex is operational and functioning at one hundred percent capacity.
"We are pleased to be making significant progress not just in pushing back the
boundaries?of exploration for all humanity, but in developing the lunar
territories in a way that benefits the Chinese people and the global market,"
said Nghia Lam, Chinese Premier.
While the United States and Nigeria still dispute China's claims to the
lucrative Palus Somnii and Mare Crisium regions, Chinese construction has
proceeded apace while diplomatic negotiations continue. "We feel we have some
valid claim to those territories, certainly," said Robert Holden, Secretary of
the Interior for the U.S. "But we would prefer to find and equitable arrangement
that would allow our countries to work together in developing man's first real
home outside of our own planet."
The first ore delivery from the factory will be launched by mass driver tomorrow
and should arrive in Earth orbit by next week.


Only if the game is set after DX1 if they care about DX lore....

It would be a lot less restrictive if they did set the game in a later time period than even IW, there could be some really interesting subjects.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
26th May 2014, 08:27
I sincerely hope you're being facetious, or referring specifically to "in-game". Global warming (once called "Global cooling", also now called the sufficiently generic "Global climate-change") is not "empirical fact". If you really believe that, you need to look up the definition of "empirical fact". :rolleyes:

Spare me the unnecessary lecture and rolling eyes. This is intended to be a friendly debate of minds... not a squabble of the ego.
My understanding of the term is empirical fact = known from direct experience....i.e. we've seen it with our own eyes; indication and confirmation gained by means of observation, experience, or experiments. If I use the wrong words, so be it; but you get the point I'm making hopefully, yeah? If so... lets debate.





Sure they are still individuals but it's way too extreme for me to appreciate.

Thank you for being in agreement that they are still individuals; usually this is not so easy. :naughty:
Well, extreme environments/events means having to take extreme measures. The Omar are all about survival and the continuation of Mankind - on the now barren earth, and on distant planets.
We all have to change... we're changing now.

Decard
26th May 2014, 11:04
Repost:

You, dear Eidos people, are in a unique position to present a great, realistic story about the conspiracy (an uncommon opportunity in the world of electronic entertainment), so it would be really great if at least some of the deeper aspects of the unseen world could be incorporated into the script.
First Deus Ex did only a decend job on that, like mentioning the Templars, Page striving for apotheosis, mixing the mundane with hidden (MJ12 lab in the serwers, right beneath normal people's feet), genetic engineering, official organisations that are actually fronts for something much bigger, Dowd mentioning the light etc. But DX team never actually delved deeper into these ideas. HR took an even shallower dive. It would be ideal if DX4 devs could take some time and study those subjects (and the ones mentioned below) or at least consult someone who is well versed in them. But don't hire Alex Jones. He requires a lot of coke to keep his down syndrome in check.

I'm talking about this because I see a lot (and I mean A LOT) of wasted potential. A deeper story set in a conspiracy themed world could be absolutely mind blowing and even life changing for some people (of course only if the atmosphere/setting is believable).
With that in mind, I shaped a few ideas concerning locations and plot aspects:


*Deep underground base/lab with an access point somewhere in plain sight. Let's say, somewhere around 1/3 of the game, when the protagonist barely scratched the surface of the hidden world, someone tells him that there is this little special elevator in x federal building or x corporate hq and provides him with the code. Said elevator is accessible to the public and there is absolutely nothing special about it when viewed from the uninitiated person's perspective.
But if you're privy to the classified information, you know that you just need to push a few buttons on the control panel (in a specific sequence and in specific time intervals) to make the magic happen.

After punching in the code, elevator descends to the level of underground public parking lot, but the door remain closed (the elevator's floor and ceiling are made of transparent plastic, so you can see what's going on beneath and above). Suddenly, you hear a whiz as the elevator cabin becomes air-tight. You look above and you see the cables disconnecting themselves automatically, you look below and you see a high tech hatch opening and revealing a dimly lit (red or cold-green) shaft that appears to be bottomless. Elevator descends into the shaft for a couple of meters and then stops again. The hatch closes above you without making a sound. For a few seconds nothing happens, and then you're beggining to hear a kind of ominous noise/hum (*WARNING, GRAPHIC CONTENT* [something like this, starts at 0:10: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpzeYUmhDbo ])
The hum intensifies and suddenly the elevator propels itself downward with incredible speed. The lcd screen on the control panel tracks your descent in meters. In first 5 seconds you reach one mile underground and after 15 seconds you are nearing your destination. The hum begins to fade as the elevator stops. Air decontamination procedure kicks in inside the cabin. And finally the door opens. The protagonist reaches for his weapon, exits the elevator and is presented with literally another world. Sterile, glowing hallways, pieces of ultra modern technology (functions unknown), human test subjects kept in plastic cages/submerged in tanks, animal-human hybrids with experimental augs grafted into their flesh and of course lots of busy psycho-scientists walking about (descendants of people brought under operation paperclip perhaps? good material for a datacube imo). Also, technical discription of the elevator and other forms of underground transport should be stored on a computer somewhere in the lab.

It's all about the contrasts. The discovery. The thin line that separates common people and common knowledge from the unseen. It might fit well with the DX4 theme of dividing classes even more.

I loosly based this scenario on descriptions of alleged Dulce base in New Mexico (minus the extraterrestrial nonsense).


*Going undercover to a multibillionaires party/ritual.
Around 2/3 of the game, the hero is generally aware of what's going on, but doesn't know WHY. All the atrocities and mind-shattering things he has seen make no sense to him. He knows that people he's up against already have all the money in the world and all the power, so he asks: why do they bother? What drives them? (but in DX world it's never about personal vendetta, so the mission should be motivated by something else also)
So, after obtaining some experimental tech, connections and knowledge, an opportunity to closely study the enemy presents itself. Thanks to his helpers, he receives an invitation to an elite gathering (something way beyond bohemian grove, see: Eyes Wide Shut) and by deception (face morphing tech/posing as a newly initiated member of the inner circle/whatever) he is able to blend in.

You arrive to a huge mansion (gothic/renaissance mixed with high, slick tech) with all kinds of splendorous facilities. Outside, there is a golf course the size of a small town, some hunting grounds, a few helipads, a few guest houses (and every one of those looks like they were built for at least 100 mil each) and of course an enormous garden with all kinds of exotic flowers and fruit. (btw. you just talked to a bum in your previous mission in Brooklyn. he lives in a sewer near a toxic spill and eats rotten dog food) So, you exit your car (or copter) and you're greeted by a pair of red clad, neck-collared supermodels (or highest level movie stars). They think that you're part of the elite, so they offer you a cocktail and tell you that it's a special mix of designer drugs that enhance cognition, induce euphoria and sharpen your senses. With no side effects or comedown. This is a DX game, so of course you can chose whether to drink it or not. After a few seconds of weird converation (and after you notice occipital jacks in both of their heads), you enter the mansion through the main door (or through the basement window, ground floor window or the chimney ;)). No surprises inside. Crystal chandeliers everywhere, dozens of portraits depicting war criminals, high tech security systems blended seamlessly into the luxurious background, heaps of gourmet organic foods on every table and so on. You notice a cleaning staff despite the fact that cleaning bots are widespread etc, plenty of details like that.
So, lots of talking in this location (maybe a hub even?), lots of reading (a big library, books and datacubes) about the past (histories of ancient orders, some books describing the purpose of media, wars, neverending conflict, and maybe something about culture changes, Hegelian dialectic, dualism, Plato's cave), present (state of classified tech, resources) and future (?). In the mansion it's all about the elite mindset and their dream of becoming like gods. So, overhearing conversations about selling/buying whole countries, miricle drugs (life extension, super-nootropics), nanotech augs reserved only for the chosen, techniques of mass manipulation, boasts about who's got better looking sex slave from a 3rd world country or who's murdered more people by pressing a button, should be common.

This way you probably can create a more hated (and feared) nemesis than any other in video game history, lol. SHODAN would become a harmless relic.


That's it for now. If I think of something, I'll post more.
Also, I'm inviting you to share some of your ideas for the plot. Maybe someone from Montreal will listen, who knows. Probably not, due to various reasons.
But then perhaps people from the modding community will find something of value in this post :cool:

AdrianShephard
26th May 2014, 17:26
Only if the game is set after DX1 if they care about DX lore....

It would be a lot less restrictive if they did set the game in a later time period than even IW, there could be some really interesting subjects.

I would be fine if EM just remade Invisible War. I really really dislike that game but there were some interesting tipics discussed.

CyberP
26th May 2014, 18:06
^Interesting idea.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
26th May 2014, 18:12
I would be fine if EM just remade Invisible War. I really really dislike that game but there were some interesting tipics discussed.
Seconded about interesting topics... but I personally wouldn't want a remake.
There is so much more that needs to be fleshed out prior to events seen in IW so I would prefer EM to go back a little further so that we can discover more about how transhumanism evolves and how these humans modify themselves to eventually become the Omar. :cool:

CyberP
29th May 2014, 22:51
I missed some parameters. Oh well, I thought after all the gameplay talk that goes on around here the thread would be nice for the writers of the forum to express themselves, plus we need to encourage EM to tackle a wide variety of topics.

Edit: Another factual unethical/illegal government project that is officially acknowledged: COINTELPRO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO)

In addition to the Snowden revelations (2013), just think of all the projects undertaken that we don't know about. 1950s to 2014, that's a lot of potential DX topics, and a lot of likely messed up ****. And this is just the U.S gov and that time line also. Corruption is everywhere.

C'mon Eidos Montreal, give us the game of the century. I expect a solid evolution of design. Better level design, better writing, better gameplay, better simulation design and so on. You can do it.

Don't dismiss simulation design like you did before so easily also. DX:HR already has a ton of sim design. It would have been extra special if you put more effort into it.

AdrianShephard
30th May 2014, 17:31
Oh well, I thought after all the gameplay talk that goes on around here the thread would be nice for the writers of the forum to express themselves, plus we need to encourage EM to tackle a wide variety of topics.

For me, I am more looking forward to how EM chooses to work with whatever plot they decide to go with than what that plot actually is. Some crazy plot twists and good character development is more important than half-assing some "conspiracies" (I'm looking at you, Illuminati in HR).

With that being said, is it assumed that the protaganist in DX4 will be a mech again? I think it would be cool if the protagonist was some kind of hybrid with both mech and nano augs...maybe some kind of unstable prototype that won't live long (due to rejection and all). I don't think I can stomach being Jensen again... It's probably his super raspy voice that gets annoying quick. JC's voice was emotionless which sort of (not really) fit with the fact that he is for all intents and purposes a terminator. Jensen's voice was just...bad.

CyberP
30th May 2014, 17:39
One thing I really don't get about DX1, and I see it as a huge flaw (unless I am missing the point), is this:

Wouldn't MJ12 have conditioned JC to be a "terminator" in a mental sense? JC is his own man outside the player's dialogue choices and actions, he is portrayed as a patriot with morals.

What was it, "another billion dollars down the drain"? I'm sorry but potential real world MJ12 would have given JC extreme mental conditioning (hmm, makes my Project MKUltra submission in the OP ironic) to be submissive to their commands and more. This is a huge flaw with DX1's plot, yes?

Hmm, actually they may have wanted to have JC grow naturally for experimentation/prototyping purposes. Is there anything in DX's plot that mentions this? I know most of it but there is a lot of datacubes, newspapers, news bulletins, emails, alternate conversations etc...

The whole JC discovering the conspiracy and putting an end to it would have never have happened if they put him through intensive mental conditioning, (unless he "woke up" on his own). Maybe it was just MJ12's incompetence, or maybe they simply didn't think he would be a threat, after all they do have an army, but we already know they are prepared to use mental conditioning to achieve their goals because the MiBs went through it.

AdrianShephard
30th May 2014, 22:01
One thing I really don't get about DX1, and I see it as a huge flaw (unless I am missing the point), is this:

Wouldn't MJ12 have conditioned JC to be a "terminator" in a mental sense? JC is his own man outside the player's dialogue choices and actions, he is portrayed as a patriot with morals.

It is a plot hole, I agree. I think JC's schooling in Sweden was Ion Storm's attempt to show MJ12's mental conditioning; though why they wouldn't go as far as the MiB's is beyond me. Perhaps there are unintended consequences that they knew about? Maybe it would interfere with his abilities to creatively accomplish an objective? (I see MiBs as one step above robots)

FrankCSIS
30th May 2014, 23:23
I think it would be cool if the protagonist was some kind of hybrid with both mech and nano augs...maybe some kind of unstable prototype that won't live long (due to rejection and all).

I like the idea of a perishable main character. Not only would the hybrid tech allow the player to branch out in vastly different directions, but the unstable nature of the enterprise would greatly help explaining why this new hero is nowhere to be found in the DX storyline. The closer we get to DX, the less sense it will make for a world-saving hero to be completely forgotten, at least in those specific circles.

As for the plot hole...Conditioning is half a myth, and the second half is rather complex. You can "desensibilise" someone, mess with their heads and get them to adopt an inane way of life, up to a point where years of horrid actions may get a part of them to embrace it as the only thing they know, and yet you'll still have to deal with some uncontrollable factors. But JC was "designed" as an operative as well as an intelligence officer, not raised as a child-soldier. If anything, profiling may have worked better, in light of the success of Navarre or Gunther.

But still, I think the real mistake was getting him to work with Paul. I don't remember the timeline, but what may have happened is Paul going rogue while JC was already too far off into his training/development. Seeing the success of Gunther and Navarre, they probably did not have any reason early on in the project to fear or suspect their superagents would jump the fence. I mean, JC is pretty much dead set on ignoring what Paul says, and was well on his way to be everything they all hoped he would be.

CyberP
30th May 2014, 23:45
I mean, JC is pretty much dead set on ignoring what Paul says, and was well on his way to be everything they all hoped he would be.

I'm not sure about that. JC discusses...anti-establishment topics with Carter on occasion (especially if you play pacifist), I'm not sure he would have been UNATCO's pawn forever if Paul wasn't in the picture...maybe.

Also what do you mean dead set on ignoring what Paul says? In regards to the conspiracy? he seems sceptical at first, but keeps an open mind. Eventually leading to him finding the evidence for himself. OK, hmm you are right, it takes Jock forcibly flying JC to see Paul in NYC to get him to see the truth.

FrankCSIS
31st May 2014, 00:01
Well, it's difficult to say for sure because JC's "free will" actually comes mostly from the player. But still, the ground work they made on him during training was rather efficient, considering you need a guy with brains to do what they expected him to do in the long run, and his very line of work may lead him to ask questions about topics they wished were left alone. Coming out of training, he seemed rather eager to go to work. I mentioned Paul, but others like Carter were also a key factor of influence on JC. Too many free spirits in UNATCO was a big issue.

And so you could say JC is a plot hole, or you could view it mostly as an ambitious mistake. As an isolated project, you're right to say it makes little sense. But we have to consider the timetable. What they could have done is test a bit of nanotech on some trusted individuals, and spend a few years following up on a bunch of small projects left and right. Although I am probably putting too much thought into this, I'd say this approach and timeline would have been incompatible with Page's projects and ambitions. They had a window of opportunity, a ton of other projects all coming to fruition, and the right scientist to work on the tech, and so they went all out.

Nothing suggests they had the tech, or were even testing mind control on the kind of scale needed to manipulate a free-thinking human being to do specific intelligence tasks. This field may have taken a hundred years to develop. Who knows.

AdrianShephard
31st May 2014, 03:18
I like the idea of a perishable main character. Not only would the hybrid tech allow the player to branch out in vastly different directions, but the unstable nature of the enterprise would greatly help explaining why this new hero is nowhere to be found in the DX storyline. The closer we get to DX, the less sense it will make for a world-saving hero to be completely forgotten, at least in those specific circles.


Yeah. I was thinking how Deus Ex could transition from the mech age into the nano-aug age without ruining the DX 1 storyline (with Paul being the first stable nano-augmented agent) and the only way I know is if there was some project that made agents on borrowed time.

EricaLeeV
1st Jun 2014, 04:50
The whole JC discovering the conspiracy and putting an end to it would have never have happened if they put him through intensive mental conditioning, (unless he "woke up" on his own). Maybe it was just MJ12's incompetence, or maybe they simply didn't think he would be a threat, after all they do have an army, but we already know they are prepared to use mental conditioning to achieve their goals because the MiBs went through it.

I think this is part of the reason why I've always wanted the MiBs to be androids.

Thought robotic tech in deus ex's world would advance to the point of walking battle androids...but nothing too complex. Wouldn't want anything like the androids becoming sentient, as is presented in other cyberpunk works; they would just be another, more advanced, and significantly more expensive robot that gets produced. The only sentience of machine would come later in the form of a AI with the freedom to gain knowledge through the net.

When I first played through the game I assumed they were robots. The way they spoke and emoted so little, plus their similar appearances (even though there wasn't really that many npc designs in the first place) made me think in such a way. Then I read that they were conditioned humans and thought....oh. The human mind can be a difficult to control and I would love the idea of Bob Page being disappointed in programmed machines as soldiers, but needing something more than human. Hence, he tries his hand at Paul and JC (in addition to testing out his nanotechnology of course). In trying to control machinery and man both are lost from his control to become something greater (if one chose the Heilos ending anyway).

CyberP
1st Jun 2014, 05:09
The human mind can be a difficult to control .

This makes my mentioning of slavery in Resident X's thread ironic. 29 million slaves are estimated to exist today, a notable portion likely not bound by physical shackles. A number of these slaves would have been raised as slaves, that's all they know. And this is without advanced methods used/experimented with in MKUltra (or any other projects), including potential technology, and also without the extra years of study from present day to 2052.
All this considered I think the MiB's being heavily brainwashed is an acceptable concept. But yes their similar appearance is a problem, unless they are clones (and therefore conditioned from birth also, and perhaps genetic engineering is used too).

There should have been some more back story for MiBs in DX that states they are clones as a cheap means to get around this problem brought about by Ion Storm's limited budget. But hey, it's a consistent problem in DX because all HK police, triads etc look the same too. Another thing I'd like to see changed in my mod but the modding community is on the verge of extinction so there is nobody to help.

AdrianShephard
1st Jun 2014, 05:30
When I first played through the game I assumed they were robots. The way they spoke and emoted so little, plus their similar appearances

I thought they were robots as well (especially how they spoke). It wasn't until a couple years ago that I figured out they were really humans.

AdrianShephard
1st Jun 2014, 22:13
Even a dog has it's day :)
Maybe the writers all had an epiphany, and hopefully the designers too. Maybe they end up besting DX1 in every sense of the word...

I don't know...EM screw Thief up pretty bad. I wish EM would hire some of the old Ion Storm people to help with the game...especially Harvey Smith. It's sad that Warren Spector tried to get the rights to Deus Ex back in 2009 but couldn't; he said that he still has some good ideas for another game :(.

CyberP
1st Jun 2014, 22:36
It's sad that Warren Spector tried to get the rights to Deus Ex back in 2009 but couldn't; he said that he still has some good ideas for another game :(.

I didn't know this or forgot. Sad indeed. I think I'd rather had not known this one, damn you!

Mind you I probably wouldn't have even made my mod if Spector produced DX3 and it was as good as or better than the first...it probably wouldn't have been though. I'm not sure what I value more, my mod (it being my achievement and contribution to DX) or another Spector-produced epic. I'll have to be realistic here and say the latter.


I don't know...EM screw Thief up pretty bad.

Different team, but yeah same chain of companies responsible.


I wish EM would hire some of the old Ion Storm people to help with the game...especially Harvey Smith.

Mr.Smith is at Arkane now where he is better off. that said he may have been a valuable asset in the creation of DX1 but his mentality seems to be the same as everyone else these days: compromise design for low risk/more sales. But that is just the impression I'm given.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
6th Jun 2014, 08:52
I thought they were robots as well (especially how they spoke). It wasn't until a couple years ago that I figured out they were really humans.

Same thing with the Omar. Some people are not aware that they are humans.

WildcatPhoenix
6th Jun 2014, 15:28
All this considered I think the MiB's being heavily brainwashed is an acceptable concept. But yes their similar appearance is a problem, unless they are clones (and therefore conditioned from birth also, and perhaps genetic engineering is used too).

There should have been some more back story for MiBs in DX that states they are clones as a cheap means to get around this problem brought about by Ion Storm's limited budget. But hey, it's a consistent problem in DX because all HK police, triads etc look the same too. Another thing I'd like to see changed in my mod but the modding community is on the verge of extinction so there is nobody to help.

The description of the Series P agents (MIBs/WIBs) mentions a "physiopharmaceutical" approach to augmentation, which is not a real word, but implies both physical and pharmaceutical (chemical) methods of augmenting human tissue. It then goes on to express frustration that the scientists have not been able to identify the source of the persistent albinism, which I always interpreted to be a result of the chemical processes to which these people were subjected. They were regular humans to begin with, but after months (years?) of psychological, physical, and chemical treatment, they were transformed into the creepy, pale MIB/WIB agents we see in DX1.

As for them all looking the same? That's just Ion Storm getting lazy with the character skins (the same with the UNATCO troopers or Red Arrow Triad members or other NPCs).

CyberP
7th Jun 2014, 02:50
As for them all looking the same? That's just Ion Storm getting lazy with the character skins (the same with the UNATCO troopers or Red Arrow Triad members or other NPCs).

Been working on it ;) So far only the HK military police, but they now have three facial variations (and some actually look Chinese now), but I have more planned.

I wouldn't say it was laziness though. Ion Storm very clearly prioritized gameplay and story over graphics. Half-Life 1 from 1998 looked much better.
Also considering the huge numbers of NPCs they still got a lot of variation in there...though mostly with various skins of course, there aren't too many models.

WildcatPhoenix
8th Jun 2014, 23:59
I wouldn't say it was laziness though. Ion Storm very clearly prioritized gameplay and story over graphics. Half-Life 1 from 1998 looked much better.


I dunno, man, I have next-to-zero real technical skills on Unreal Editor, and even I figured out how to change the face/hands for the NPCs. As long as the skin fits the mesh, you can interchange just about all of them. Would've been pretty easy to mix in some different faces with the characters from UNATCO, MJ12, Hong Kong, etc. They just didn't bother, IMO.

Tiny little nitpicks like that keep DX1 from being "flawless" (and sometimes can be more of an annoyance to new players who are just now trying out the game), but oh well...water under the bridge, at this point.

CyberP
9th Jun 2014, 00:34
I dunno, man, I have next-to-zero real technical skills on Unreal Editor, and even I figured out how to change the face/hands for the NPCs. As long as the skin fits the mesh, you can interchange just about all of them.

Yes, but you also need a new carcass class for every new type of NPC look you make, because when they are dead/KO'd they are not actually the same object you killed but a new one spawned as the death animation finishes.
Then you have to assign those new carcass classes to your new NPCs in the maps. Or take another just as tedious approach.
They could have coded a shortcut for this process though by having all multiskins that are not the default transferred onto the carcass.

In case you didn't get that or I explained it badly, NPC textures you swap out in UED are not transferred onto the corpse when they die, so you have a major inconsistency unless you code up a solution to this or just make new individual classes to match.


Would've been pretty easy to mix in some different faces with the characters from UNATCO, MJ12, Hong Kong, etc. They just didn't bother, IMO.


I am now going to start this tedious work on the main enemy classes; NSF, UNATCO & MJ12. I've been putting it off after doing all the HK Military guys =/
Thing is Ion Storm gave NSF balaclavas which is a good excuse for them all looking the same, UNATCO dudes have the face masks and helmets, and MJ12 just the helmets with a visor. You are still quite restricted in the variations you can make too unless you make new textures and models, and animations with those models. I have no artist but I'll be able to add more believable individuality to some.

DX:HR did this too, same as DX1; had belltower in full body gear, and the riot police. They probably thought **** this after doing all the various types of gang members in Detroit, and I don't blame them.

Edit: damn, I just remembered HDTP overrides multiskins for those three classes. I guess I'll stick to other minor NPC types then.

WildcatPhoenix
9th Jun 2014, 00:42
Yes, but you also need a new carcass class for every new type of NPC look you make, because when they are dead/KO'd they are not actually the same object you killed but a new one spawned as the death animation finishes.
Then you have to assign those new carcass classes to your new NPCs in the maps. Or take another just as tedious approach.
They could have coded a shortcut for this process though by having all multiskins that are not the default transferred onto the carcass.

In case you didn't get that or I explained it badly, NPC textures you swap out in UED are not transferred onto the corpse when they die, so you have a major inconsistency unless you code up a solution to this or just make new individual classes to match.


Ahhh, that's right, I forgot about the carcass classes! I never implemented any of my changed skins into an actual map...just fiddled around with them in the editor for a few hours. So maybe it would've required a lot more effort. At the time I first played DX1 it didn't bother me much, but of course I'd hate to see a modern sequel take that kind of approach to character skinning (not very likely in a AAA title, but still...)

CyberP
9th Jun 2014, 00:55
It's important, especially in an Immersive Sim, but gameplay and story first. I wouldn't mind a modern game with plenty cloned minor NPCs. Pretty sure all the weapons dealers in DX:HR look the same, and although they did do a good job with the variety of NPCs, for each minor NPC in the game there is a duplicate somewhere. Well, not all of them but a notable amount.

CyberP
10th Jun 2014, 13:47
Why has nobody took notice of the revolutionary, sometimes somewhat philosophical UK Grime movement of recent times? Too busy bopping to Psy and Skrillex et al.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UASiNw1Rwks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjvUMr1-AAU&feature=kp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBNeD57-RVg&feature=kp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJOp1CqzaSg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuK7uB2ONdc

Relevant to the thread as they discuss topics you'd find in Deus Ex.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
23rd Jun 2014, 13:47
Any more ideas forthcoming? :cool:

AdrianShephard
23rd Jun 2014, 15:47
Any more ideas forthcoming? :cool:

Anything other than a plot about a revenge story and then advertising it about "government conspiracies". Then 80% of the way through the game the Illuminati references get thrown around because, after all, it's a DX game. After I finished HR, I nearly threw my controller at the wall...the secret ending scene calmed me down a bit though.

Shralla
23rd Jun 2014, 19:19
Why has nobody took notice of the revolutionary, sometimes somewhat philosophical UK Grime movement of recent times?

I don't think I consider "rapping about meaningful things" to be revolutionary. Also I think that if you heard about it and you can post youtube links of it, people are noticing it.

r8zi7vcnjVc

CyberP
23rd Jun 2014, 20:19
I don't think I consider "rapping about meaningful things" to be revolutionary.


revolutionary

1.
involving or causing a complete or dramatic change.

It's as revolutionary as it gets if you know what UK Grime was before this. It's a dramatic change and it will hopefully have a dramatic affect on that scene.
It's rather ******* revolutionary in general tbh, there are no other artists with this kind of approach: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBNeD57-RVg
Pay attention to the videos posted.


Also I think that if you heard about it and you can post youtube links of it, people are noticing it.

Spare me the condescending crap, you knew exactly what I meant. Also I didn't hear about it, I stumbled upon it on Youtube because I listen to a wide variety of music, only modern pop and dubstep I tend to stay away from the best I can because it's as low as it gets, with a few exceptions, but that **** is everywhere and impossible to avoid. *sigh*

Lady_Of_The_Vine
24th Jun 2014, 16:49
Are we agreed that its time for the Omar beginnings to be unveiled to us? :cool:

CyberP
24th Jun 2014, 19:35
Are we agreed that its time for the Omar beginnings to be unveiled to us? :cool:

By EM? Viktoria, I don't think you actually want that ;)
...Just kidding. I still think, or maybe hope rather, that EM's writers and designers have great potential. They can maybe be the very best, if only they follow LGS' lead religiously like the rest of us :)
That doesn't mean their creative side has to be held back. All Immersive Sims are strikingly similar, yet drastically different, as contradictory as that sounds. It's the core principles that need to be upheld.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
24th Jun 2014, 19:43
By EM? Viktoria, I don't think you actually want that ;)
I really enjoyed DX:HR and the DLC, so yeah, I DO want... want... WANT. :naughty:

CyberP
24th Jun 2014, 19:46
So did I, but the Omar was the conceptualization of Ion Storm's writers/designers.
...I guess not everybody is obsessed with "true" canon.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
24th Jun 2014, 19:49
I only have healthy obsessions. :cool: :D

CyberP
24th Jun 2014, 19:54
The Omar's ideologies are not ideal, not healthy.
Still a healthier obsession than all mine though =/

Lady_Of_The_Vine
24th Jun 2014, 20:14
Hehe, I bet. :D

Okay, lets enjoy a fun debate. What exactly do you consider not to be ideal or healthy about Omar ideology?
They are humans, after all, who have had to adapt to survive to continue the legacy of mankind. Its do or die. :p

CyberP
25th Jun 2014, 17:21
There's not enough information for a proper debate, we only know what we learn in Invisible War.

1. I am for the most part against a interconnected consciousness, but just how interconnected are the Omar? We need way more details on this.
2. The exoskeletons, can the Omar take them off in a safe environment?
3. What's with the singular voice? Is that really necessary?
4. Is recruiting new members by force and deception necessary also, and what does that say about the ethics of these interconnected Omar?

How I see it, the Omar are not the answer to Humanity's problems in Deus Ex's 2072. JCelios is. I'd rather be interconnected with JCelios than Omar.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
26th Jun 2014, 20:18
Very true, we don't have enough information for proper factual debate but we can still enjoy the speculation.
Hopefully the next game will tell us all we need to know about the Omar beginnings. Hint, hint....EM. ;)

As for point 4, there is absolutely no evidence they recruit by force or deception. Leo was teased but that was because he was an indecisive prat; they just wanted him to make his mind up. There was also a malicious rumour started by the Seattle lawyer implying the Omar kidnap people to turn them into cyborgs. Its pure conjecture.... and most likely nonsense as they are pretty passive and only open fire on you in self-defense.

I see the renegade ending and the Omar as the perfect answer. At last... individuals can take responsibility for their own behaviour, actions and future... without the need for a dictator/politics or a God/religion.

Karpaw
27th Jun 2014, 12:59
The Omar are odd. Conceptually, they're taken straight from one of Bruce Sterling's storyverses but they were modeled on an interstellar faction whereas the Omar are said to have developed "in an attempt to survive the massive Russian famines following the Collapse". Wearing exoskeletal suits as protection from deep space radiation and cold makes sense but how does it protect you from starving? Why not gene therapy to make your body metabolize nutrients more effectively?

If it ever becomes an issue, I hope EM treats Invisible War as non-canonical. That game is such a monumental screw-up on every level, including lore.

AdrianShephard
27th Jun 2014, 16:30
Wearing exoskeletal suits as protection from deep space radiation and cold makes sense but how does it protect you from starving? Why not gene therapy to make your body metabolize nutrients more effectively?

If it ever becomes an issue, I hope EM treats Invisible War as non-canonical. That game is such a monumental screw-up on every level, including lore.

I think Crysis 2 explained the starving thing by claiming that the suit takes over all bodily functions of the wearer.

I hope EM can make something better than Invisible War.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
27th Jun 2014, 19:20
The Omar are odd.
As odd as any human might be, yes.



Wearing exoskeletal suits as protection from deep space radiation and cold makes sense but how does it protect you from starving? Why not gene therapy to make your body metabolize nutrients more effectively?
As they are intelligent human-beings, I'm sure they already figured this one out before they modified themselves.


If it ever becomes an issue, I hope EM treats Invisible War as non-canonical. That game is such a monumental screw-up on every level, including lore.
The game wasn't the masterpiece DX1 was but I wouldn't say it was a screw-up on every level. I still had fun playing it and the Omar are awesome, right? :poke:
:D

JCpies
27th Jun 2014, 19:29
Reading this made me want to play Invisible War again.

The menu theme is still incredible.

WildcatPhoenix
27th Jun 2014, 22:36
Reading this made me want to play Invisible War again.

The menu theme is still incredible.

I, too, have thought about doing a replay of Invisible War (alas, after recently completing DX1 for probably the 30th time, it has begun to get a little stale).

Much like DXHR, though, I just can't seem to motivate myself to sit through that many hours of a game which doesn't inspire me. I'm sure there were other approaches to the challenges, different dialogue that I missed out on, etc, but nothing about either of the two Deus Ex sequels really makes me want to go back and experience that world or those characters again.

The Order? The Templars? The Omar? (sorry, Viktoria) Meh, I just don't really care about them. And don't even get me started on the characters.

But sure, the theme is great. Fortunately, I can listen to that on Youtube whenever I want.

CyberP
27th Jun 2014, 22:49
and the Omar are awesome, right? :poke:
:D

Yes.

By the way, Viktoria, have you played the Deus Ex TC/Mod "Project 2027"? It features Omar in their infancy. The TC is set in Russia in the year 2027 (the same year as HR, purely coincidence). I don't consider it canonical much like HR but if you want more Omar well there you go. It's free if you own DX1 on PC, go play: http://project2027.com/

I highly recommend it. I rate is as highly as Human Revolution. It's more Deus Ex than Human Revolution, but it too is not on DX1's level (naturally).

Lady_Of_The_Vine
30th Jun 2014, 22:08
Yes.
Respect. :cool: :D


By the way, Viktoria, have you played the Deus Ex TC/Mod "Project 2027"? It features Omar in their infancy. The TC is set in Russia in the year 2027 (the same year as HR, purely coincidence). I don't consider it canonical much like HR but if you want more Omar well there you go. It's free if you own DX1 on PC, go play: http://project2027.com/

I highly recommend it. I rate is as highly as Human Revolution. It's more Deus Ex than Human Revolution, but it too is not on DX1's level (naturally).
I'll give it a go when winter arrives, thanks. :thumb: