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S3R6i0
18th May 2014, 07:21
I was playing Blood Money and couldn't help but feel that the boss battles in Hitman are less than mediocre. Specifically, the levels Dance With the Devil and Amendment XXV. Wouldn't been cool if the showdowns between 47 and Mark Parchezzi III and Maynard John were more than just a 2.5 second machine gun execution. In the context of the story, they were pretty interesting adversaries and it wouldn't been nice to have more interesting battles. I'm sure with the advancements in cover we can expect more in the future. Maybe IO can borrow a team in Square Enix more efficient in that department. I have to say, those battles were pretty disappointing.

Silverballers
18th May 2014, 11:57
I have to agree with you. The boss battles in the Hitman games are not that good. They were no challenge to me, because they're too easy.
I was also disappointed that we didn't get to kill Travis ourselves at the end of Absolution, just a boring cutscene.
I hope the boss battles in future Hitman games will be more spectacular. A real challenge where you have to spend hours to try and finish would be nice.

First post btw. :)

S3R6i0
18th May 2014, 12:26
Requiem from Blood Money was kind of a boss level, and a good example of what I was expecting. Add a couple of context activations and an explosion or two, and I'll be satisfied.

AdrianShephard
18th May 2014, 21:45
Maybe it's just me, but I think Square Enix sucks at boss battles, especially in Deus Ex 3.

S3R6i0
18th May 2014, 21:56
I don't know anything about SE, only that they created the Final Fantasy series and they bought Eidos (or IO, whatever). The Hitman series is weak when it gets beyond the stealth, but something like the boss battles in Resident Evil 4 (like when Leon fights Krauser) would be cool, tho.

kewlak
19th May 2014, 00:10
So how you imagine "interesting boss battle"? In Requiem from BM all difficulty was in target's guards - you couldn't avoid them.
I admit that Mark Parchezzi III and Maynard should try to dodge 47's bullets more often, but that should be all.
I mean i wouldn't appreciate if all difficulty in shooting would be based on SCRIPTED getaway of target behind another obstacle etc., so it would be impossible to kill him earlier... or (worse) on enemy's inhuman stamina.

Other possibility could be to disarm both characters. Or maybe more interesting battle would be between two assassins with fiber wires. It could be based on clicking in right moment to get close to strangle enemy (another clone?), or on continuous clicking to defend himself against being strangled.

Personally I rather want more stealth than "interesting battles" and as long as battles don't interrupt stealth gameplay I'm ok with any boss battle model.

mcescher1
19th May 2014, 03:49
"boss levels" are for the birds

i never understood why it took more than 2 precise bullets to take down a target anyhow.

do you want hitman to fight godzilla?? i mean jesus

what kind of "Boss levels" are you hoping for??

two face? the riddler?

give me a break

S3R6i0
19th May 2014, 04:23
So how you imagine "interesting boss battle"? In Requiem from BM all difficulty was in target's guards - you couldn't avoid them.
I admit that Mark Parchezzi III and Maynard should try to dodge 47's bullets more often, but that should be all.
I mean i wouldn't appreciate if all difficulty in shooting would be based on SCRIPTED getaway of target behind another obstacle etc., so it would be impossible to kill him earlier... or (worse) on enemy's inhuman stamina.

Other possibility could be to disarm both characters. Or maybe more interesting battle would be between two assassins with fiber wires. It could be based on clicking in right moment to get close to strangle enemy (another clone?), or on continuous clicking to defend himself against being strangled.

Personally I rather want more stealth than "interesting battles" and as long as battles don't interrupt stealth gameplay I'm ok with any boss battle model.

This comment is just a giant mess. I have no idea what you're rambling about.

I never said they need to change the entire gameplay structure. All I said was the shootout between Mark Parchezzi and Maynard John were pretty cheesy. These were also professional assassins and they could've put up more of a fight.

S3R6i0
19th May 2014, 04:39
"boss levels" are for the birds

i never understood why it took more than 2 precise bullets to take down a target anyhow.

do you want hitman to fight godzilla?? i mean jesus

what kind of "Boss levels" are you hoping for??

two face? the riddler?

give me a break

Mark Parchezzi and Maynard John were both top-tier assassins and adversaries for 47. All I said was the way 47 took them down was pretty cheesy.

What about my post gave you the idea that I wanted 47 to have David and Goliath-type battles. All I said that for an adversary such as another assassin or a nemesis there should be more to the gameplay than pumping 50 rounds into his body (which is also very unrealistic).

Obviously IO thought enough about this that they designed the deaths of Mark Parchezzi and John Maynard with a different approach, instead of having 47 silently take them down like every other target. In Silent Assassin the final level was a rescue mission. In the final Contracts mission, 47 was being hunted by the swat. Obviously IO thinks outside of the same bubble that you do. So I know what I'm talking about and you don't.

Silverballers
19th May 2014, 09:53
To me, the final mission in Silent Assassin ("Redemption at Gontranno") was the best "boss level" in the Hitman series. It would be great to have a similar "boss level", but make it more difficult.

kewlak
19th May 2014, 11:54
So for you all "interesting battles" in Hitman series rely on scheme that 47 had to kill many adversaries ("Redemption at Gontranno" etc.) But this scheme isn't practical in stealth missions.
So i repeat my question: how you imagine "interesting boss battle" (i mean 1 vs 1)? Give me an EXAMPLE S3R6i0 (may be from other games).

Silverballers
19th May 2014, 12:59
I'm only talking about the final boss battle. As long as the rest of the game has the usual Hitman formula, I have no problem with the final mission being different (like "Redemption...")

mcescher1
20th May 2014, 00:00
So I know what I'm talking about and you don't.

do you know that you are an a$$hole?? :wave:

Travis_IO
20th May 2014, 07:23
Mark Parchezzi and Maynard John were both top-tier assassins and adversaries for 47. All I said was the way 47 took them down was pretty cheesy.

What about my post gave you the idea that I wanted 47 to have David and Goliath-type battles. All I said that for an adversary such as another assassin or a nemesis there should be more to the gameplay than pumping 50 rounds into his body (which is also very unrealistic).

Obviously IO thought enough about this that they designed the deaths of Mark Parchezzi and John Maynard with a different approach, instead of having 47 silently take them down like every other target. In Silent Assassin the final level was a rescue mission. In the final Contracts mission, 47 was being hunted by the swat. Obviously IO thinks outside of the same bubble that you do. So I know what I'm talking about and you don't.


do you know that you are an a$$hole?? :wave:

You both need to cool it. Please keep the conversation civil and don't provoke other users. Let's draw a line and keep the thread on track.

austin47
20th May 2014, 11:03
I don't think you can have a boss fight, because the enemy never knows when 47 will strike?

S3R6i0
20th May 2014, 21:30
I give up.

S3R6i0
21st May 2014, 04:07
So for you all "interesting battles" in Hitman series rely on scheme that 47 had to kill many adversaries ("Redemption at Gontranno" etc.) But this scheme isn't practical in stealth missions.
So i repeat my question: how you imagine "interesting boss battle" (i mean 1 vs 1)? Give me an EXAMPLE S3R6i0 (may be from other games).

Something like this (just the first half of the video)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxNyQ5wgf0Q

S3R6i0
21st May 2014, 04:08
I'm only talking about the final boss battle. As long as the rest of the game has the usual Hitman formula, I have no problem with the final mission being different (like "Redemption...")

Exactly.

kewlak
21st May 2014, 12:40
Something like this (just the first half of the video)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxNyQ5wgf0Q

To peform such fight in Hitman it should be done without any guns (unless you want to fight against superman, or with some scripted actions, what would sucks -.-)

mcescher1
21st May 2014, 20:36
i think the final boss fight should be exaaaccttllly like this

TUhn4EZZ5ZM

followed by a credit scene like this - lead by 47

GFLGRidfFo4

:thumb:

S3R6i0
22nd May 2014, 02:31
@mcescher1

Okay, how would you make a final Hitman level? Never mind the boss, how would you close a Hitman game, gameplay wise? Since you're obviously a genius.

AdrianShephard
22nd May 2014, 03:43
@mcescher1

Okay, how would you make a final Hitman level? Never mind the boss, how would you close a Hitman game, gameplay wise? Since you're obviously a genius.

I liked the C:47 final mission where you just mow down a whole bunch of Mr. 48's.

crishy
22nd May 2014, 03:55
I was playing Blood Money and couldn't help but feel that the boss battles in Hitman are less than mediocre. Specifically, the levels Dance With the Devil and Amendment XXV. Wouldn't been cool if the showdowns between 47 and Mark Parchezzi III and Maynard John were more than just a 2.5 second machine gun execution. In the context of the story, they were pretty interesting adversaries and it wouldn't been nice to have more interesting battles. I'm sure with the advancements in cover we can expect more in the future. Maybe IO can borrow a team in Square Enix more efficient in that department. I have to say, those battles were pretty disappointing.


I think, Something you can rate is pretty hard. I can't really give you any single attributes but Shadow of the Colossus is a game made up entirely of boss fights. Each one is different and requires some strategy to defeat. One thing I can say about bosses is they deserve some theme music. Good luck on your list. :D

http://dailydigitaldeals.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/11/35/smile.gif

MrAtmea
22nd May 2014, 08:24
I thought the best boss battle was Redemption at Gontranno. Stealthily killing 20+ guards was challenging. The final shootout with Yuri could be approached with both stealth (sniper) or guns blazing.

However, I would like to see a boss that is as sneaky as 47, where both have nothing but a fiber wire, with the level designed in such a way that there's Always a way to get behind each other.

Or the boss uses a sniper on you, and you have to avoid him using the enviroment. When you reach his position, you have multiple ways of taking him out. (shootout, fiber wire, accident)

kewlak
22nd May 2014, 11:41
However, I would like to see a boss that is as sneaky as 47, where both have nothing but a fiber wire, with the level designed in such a way that there's Always a way to get behind each other.
Or the boss uses a sniper on you, and you have to avoid him using the enviroment. When you reach his position, you have multiple ways of taking him out. (shootout, fiber wire, accident)

Exactly. It would be a boss fight in real Hitman style. I would add some mirrors too like in Enter the Dragon movie >: ) or something with possibility to divert enemy’s attention, so he would thinks 47 is in other place than actually.

S3R6i0
23rd May 2014, 01:20
I liked the C:47 final mission where you just mow down a whole bunch of Mr. 48's.

Is that what you want? A repeat of Codename: 47?

mcescher1
24th May 2014, 04:50
this is what the final scene should look like, lead up to by epic plot lines, strategy, and assassin like adventures

LI8PFLRSjVQ

[redacted]

S3R6i0
24th May 2014, 06:42
this is what the final scene should look like, lead up to by epic plot lines, strategy, and assassin like adventures

LI8PFLRSjVQ

you want boss levels?? go play batman or whatever other fantasy / science fiction game you're into

Okay. You're clearly trolling now, and I won't be responding to your stupidities until you visit the Wizard of Oz and purchase a brain from him. I asked you what your idea of a good final Hitman level should be, and you're clearly too much of a coward to give a straight forward answer. Make sure to get some courage form the great wizard while your at it.

I for one, am done with this forum. Too many stupid idiots and not enough free speech.

Driber
24th May 2014, 13:34
S3R6i0 has been suspended from the forum for the flaming post above, in combination with previous flaming. That kind of language towards fellow forum members is not tolerated here.

I'm leaving the post visible so people can see why he was banned, but I do not want members to respond to it. Stay on topic, please, and let's continue to have a constructive discussion on the positives and negatives about boss battles.

@mcescher1: I've edited your post to keep it constructive. Please try to phrase things a bit more nicer next time and a bit less confrontational. Thanks.

mcescher1
24th May 2014, 15:58
thanks driber :flowers:, i thought i was being honest with that post, obviously he didn't agree :whistle:

kewlak
24th May 2014, 16:43
Agree with mcescher1. In Hitman should be no place for any platform game-like battles. It should be a stealth game first of all. Who doesn't like it - don't play in Hitman (btw what movie is it?)

mcescher1
25th May 2014, 05:07
i think its from American Gangster starring Denzel Washington

AdrianShephard
26th May 2014, 01:04
Is that what you want? A repeat of Codename: 47?

No...I was just saying that I liked how IO handled the final mission in the first game. I thought that you might agree since you were so adamant about a level of just action awhile back...


I await your response :D

AdrianShephard
26th May 2014, 01:06
Agree with mcescher1. In Hitman should be no place for any platform game-like battles. It should be a stealth game first of all. Who doesn't like it - don't play in Hitman (btw what movie is it?)

Ehh...I don't like boss battles per se but I don't really mind if the final level isn't all stealth.

kewlak
26th May 2014, 12:23
Ehh...I don't like boss battles per se but I don't really mind if the final level isn't all stealth.

I meant boss battles like in platform games. So you have to kill some bulletproof enemy, or find some unrealistic way to kill him.
I don't mind if final level would be complete carnage neither.

mcescher1
27th May 2014, 04:35
the final level should be a climax and culmination of all the **** you have been going through the entire game... followed by maybe small teaser level (a fun level with major re-playability) leading into a story line for the next game

a boss level isn't necessary if you have a riveting plot and an entertaining game with required thinking and strategy, oh and of course good timing.

;)

123
7th Aug 2014, 10:27
"boss levels" are for the birds

i never understood why it took more than 2 precise bullets to take down a target anyhow.

do you want hitman to fight godzilla?? i mean jesus

what kind of "Boss levels" are you hoping for??

two face? the riddler?

give me a breakEvery single hitman game has had Boss fights so you shouldn't get a break. The batman villains mention are more realistic 47. Hitman is a science fiction game about a super clone assassin so it'll never be as real as the chip you showed from American gangster as long as agent 47 is in it. There should be realism but there should also be style like maybe smokin aces. 47 would fit perfectly in the batman universe.

It was the realism nuts that want to get rid of duel wielding, and the trade mark suit and barcode. It was also the realism nuts that made Tomb raider a generic shooting for feminist, Ironically the most unrealistic of them all. They shouldn't omit Boss fight simply to be more "Realistic".

MrJohnson
7th Aug 2014, 14:05
Hitman is not a "boss" series.
I don't want some action scene where you have to empty 5 mags in the ennemy's face to get a cutscene where you kill him.
IO did perfectly so far : they were "bosses" because they were hard to get to and to kill, and because they had a badass background, but it still was possible to get a S.A. rank, which means just putting one bullet in their face (well Blood Money was kind of different because EVERYONE was a target and there was no rank to the final mission).

It is true, however, that we couldn't really say they were badasses for most of them, we didn't really see them struggle in a very efficient way.

The wheelchair guy however had to get 2 headshots in Pro mode in Blood Money, and he was scaring the **** out of me, you know, just rolling, almost floating up to you, staring at you, and could one-shot you after being hurt by the guards you dealt with.

AdrianShephard
7th Aug 2014, 22:05
Hitman is a science fiction game about a super clone assassin so it'll never be as real as the chip you showed from American gangster as long as agent 47 is in it.

I wouldn't call Hitman "science fiction" since that connotes something else. I'm almost positive the technology exists today for a human to be cloned (they already cloned a sheep almost 20 years ago). Understandably, an achievement like that wouldn't be released to the general public as the sheep cloning already drew enough criticism.


They shouldn't omit Boss fight simply to be more "Realistic".

That's not the reason why boss fights haven't been included in Hitman. It's because bosses ruin the pacing set by the entire game. That's like having a forced shootout in the original Splinter Cell games...it wouldn't be well received because the mechanics aren't in place for it.

MrJohnson
8th Aug 2014, 12:27
Yeah I missed that : Hitman is not a science fiction game.
Mass Effect is a science fiction game.

Science Fiction means it takes place in a world that definitely couldn't be ours.
But Hitman takes place in our world, in our time. And human cloning is definitely not impossible either.

If there was a world full of human clones, like the movie "I Robot" but with clones instead of robots, then yes it would be a science fiction game.

But do you know for certain if there is no assassin clone nowadays in our real world?

(Well ok its obviously not true but its still more possible than Mass Effect's plot happening tomorrow)

kewlak
8th Aug 2014, 15:50
People could clone sheep, but between sheep and human is huge difference, so i absolutely don't believe someone could create healthy human clone nowadays (especially super clone). Science Fiction connects science with fiction (as the name suggests), so if we assume that human cloning is fiction nowadays (because we don't have evidence that it isn't) we can see that Hitman has elements of SCIFI.
Death serum from Blood Money isn't real too, so we have another medical fiction.

Yet i don't take Hitman series for typical SCIFI genre. It's mostly a criminal/ action game. Even gameplay itself hasn't SCIFI elements, so you can't say that Hitman is science fiction game. Yes, it has SCIFI themes in plot, but it's not typical SCIFI game.

AdrianShephard
8th Aug 2014, 17:40
People could clone sheep, but between sheep and human is huge difference

Biologically, not by much. We are both mammals created by the same process and we have the same types of cells. Look at the research, it's all there. The only thing stopping human cloning is the countless number of people against it and the numerous laws prohibiting it.

Researchers have also cloned monkeys (which, as you know, are very close to humans) and have even genetically modified them. A quick Google search will give you all the info. Might I add, humans have known how to clone monkeys since the late 1990s.

Aybroe
8th Aug 2014, 23:33
I think that cloning humans nowadays or at least in nearby future is possible. The only obstacle in the way would be moral values. Would it be acceptable to clone yourself and store vital organs in advance if something drastic happened? Is the clone considered a human like all of us (I mean, why wouldn't it be)? What if the clone replaced it's master? Man, The Island is a good movie.

But on topic, I think that there should be a boss battle(s) in a way. I'm not meaning a boss battle like Pablo was in C47, as badass as it was. I mean a boss like Lee Hong was in Hitman 1, or like Hayamoto senior was in Hitman 2. You knew you had to get Hayamoto Sr. three missions earlier. To that point it was locating him (tracking hayamoto) and getting to him (hidden valley & at the gates). The latter levels could've been done better, but the idea was good. The target is someone so powerful and highly guarded that you have to do prep work in order to get to him. Reducing Lee Hongs guards by causing a gang war and framing Hong's gang from the assassination of a negotiator and the chief of police was a clever way to reduce his protection and finally get to him.

And the "boss level" should be big, heavily guarded but still 100% completeable by SA-rating. Just like the castle in Shogun Showdown or Lee Hong's restaurant/brothel/lair. Also the boss should die like a normal target, one shot to the head, accident, strangulation and so on.

kewlak
9th Aug 2014, 01:29
Biologically, not by much. We are both mammals created by the same process and we have the same types of cells. Look at the research, it's all there. The only thing stopping human cloning is the countless number of people against it and the numerous laws prohibiting it.

Researchers have also cloned monkeys (which, as you know, are very close to humans) and have even genetically modified them. A quick Google search will give you all the info. Might I add, humans have known how to clone monkeys since the late 1990s.
A quick Google search tells me that chimpanzee, gorilla, or orangutan haven't been cloned. If so, human cloning is only SCIFI (for now).

AdrianShephard
9th Aug 2014, 01:59
A quick Google search tells me that chimpanzee, gorilla, or orangutan haven't been cloned. If so, human cloning is only SCIFI (for now).

Instead of just reading off a list of what animals have been cloned, actually read the research. Here start with this: http://genetics.thetech.org/original_news/news68 .

The tech is there, all the pieces are in place. This is like saying quantum computing is science fiction...it is in the loosest sense of the word...but we are so close to it, perhaps in the next 5-10 years. With cloning? Well, we don't know where they are at with that, and understandably so.

EDIT: Whatever, no point in derailing this thread. You can claim Hitman is sci-fi if you want (and technically it is), though again, that tends to connote something else.

gkkiller
9th Aug 2014, 05:02
Hitman would be sci-fi only if the fact that Agent 47 was a clone was a major plot point. It's not, except in BM and Absolution, and even then, it's not expanded on except in the sense that there are clones walking around. There's no more detail. So I wouldn't call Hitman sci-fi.

Anyway, yeah, let's not go off the topic.

Soleil
10th Aug 2014, 23:43
So how you imagine "interesting boss battle"? In Requiem from BM all difficulty was in target's guards - you couldn't avoid them.
I admit that Mark Parchezzi III and Maynard should try to dodge 47's bullets more often, but that should be all.
I mean i wouldn't appreciate if all difficulty in shooting would be based on SCRIPTED getaway of target behind another obstacle etc., so it would be impossible to kill him earlier... or (worse) on enemy's inhuman stamina.

Other possibility could be to disarm both characters. Or maybe more interesting battle would be between two assassins with fiber wires. It could be based on clicking in right moment to get close to strangle enemy (another clone?), or on continuous clicking to defend himself against being strangled.

Personally I rather want more stealth than "interesting battles" and as long as battles don't interrupt stealth gameplay I'm ok with any boss battle model.

I fully agree. And as for me, the last mission in BM was difficult as hell, i always died in the middle of the guards the first 100 times :mad2:

LeMoN_LiMe
11th Aug 2014, 06:19
This is a boss battle sir. Or at least it can be, if you so choose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOr8dln2c5k