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FrankCSIS
13th Apr 2014, 01:36
We don't know for sure if something else than experimental franchise-bait is currently in the works. Considering Square would be foolish to pass on a sequel to its surprise hit, I think it would be fun to look ahead and see where we can go from now, in terms of gameplay and gaming experience.

Much like a man waking up on the losing side of an election or a civil war, now that the results are in, there is hardly any point in looking back. We've already worded, in more ways than one, how we felt about HR as a DX title. But now that HR is a reality, EM would be foolish to move into a drastically different direction, even if it was solely done to please us here and fully recreate the DX experience as we saw it. All which must be done now is look ahead, and improve on the HR experience.

In that perspective, what would you do, in terms of gameplay, to bonify the offer of the next title?

As an ice-breaker, here's a copy-paste of another thread, which inspired this one.


I'd need to replay it and freshen up on the issues to come up with specific details. Outside of the obvious, like boss battles, they would need more features, and a bigger world. Personally I'd throw in augs which affect the playstyles more drastically, coupled with more unique situations where certains augs can make an actual difference. Beyond the usual stealth vs shoot, people like to play. Let them play and have some creative fun. They are already familiar with the HR basics, you can challenge them more and get your players to learn new tricks.

In the same vein, now that the players are used to your game, you can make alternate paths/approaches less obvious, and more differentiated, also leaving room for creativity. You can play with existing and new augs to allow people to make their own path, instead of offering 3 different keys each matching their obvious key hole. I understand the weariness of multiple paths for their first title with a modern audience, but the crowd is proper warmed up now for a harsher workout.

Couple that with bigger worlds, better map layouts, less repetitive action and more unique sequences, and you can easily top the HR offer.

CyberP
13th Apr 2014, 01:49
We don't know for sure if something else than experimental franchise-bait is currently in the works. Considering Square would be foolish to pass on a sequel to its surprise hit, I think it would be fun to look ahead and see where we can go from now, in terms of gameplay and gaming experience.

Much like a man waking up on the losing side of an election or a civil war, now that the results are in, there is hardly any point in looking back. We've already worded, in more ways than one, how we felt about HR as a DX title. But now that HR is a reality, EM would be foolish to move into a drastically different direction, even if it was solely done to please us here and fully redeem the DX experience. All which can be done now is look ahead, and improve on the HR experience.

In that perspective, what would you do, in terms of gameplay, to bonify the offer of the next title?

As an ice-breaker, here's a copy-paste of another thread, which inspired this one.

Ohh, Gameplay is my forte, and I personally think Human Revolution is a lost cause. Don't get me wrong, it has very enjoyable gameplay, but an analogy for it is when a programmer designs a game, if he is not a good designer, but a really good programmer, it's not going to meet it's full potential. This is how I feel when I look at Human Revolution; So much potential wasted. It will never compare to the genius that is the Immersive Sim.

And don't get me wrong, I don't want to be stuck here believing that they won't best 10 year+ old games, but I've played too many games and seen how difficult it is (for many reasons) and unlikely it is to ever happen. Too many people just don't get it either, don't see the potential, and that's a major problem.

Just my opinion, of course, but Eidos Montreal and SE are going to need a complete design and business philosophy revision to meet that potential that I perceive, but that is not going to happen.

What I expect them to do is improve on the Human Revolution experience, some changes based on feedback, others of their own accord, and it will be great, GOTY even, but again not meeting the medium's full potential, but I can live with that because good games are rare to come by these days and anything that has DX in the title that is not the Fall can only be a good thing, right? Right?

3rdmillhouse
13th Apr 2014, 02:27
Well, for starters they could add some verticality elements, like climbing over walls and such.

EM should incorporate changes made to the inventory by that mod which allowed us to hoard ammo like crazy.

The next game should reward us equally in exp points whether we choose violence or stealth during our playthrough.

Enemies should drop more ammo as well, a whole full magazine for their respective weapons would seem like fair to me.

We should engage in more significant verbal confrontations against the characters, those verbal battles were one of the highlights of the game to me.

CyberP
13th Apr 2014, 02:48
EM should incorporate changes made to the inventory by that mod which allowed us to hoard ammo like crazy.


Do you not see that this defeats the point of an inventory system in the first place considering all it was for was weapons and ammo (mostly)?

3rdmillhouse
13th Apr 2014, 03:21
Do you not see that this defeats the point of an inventory system in the first place considering all it was for was weapons and ammo (mostly)?

Wut

hybridex
13th Apr 2014, 15:44
Do you not see that this defeats the point of an inventory system in the first place considering all it was for was weapons and ammo (mostly)?

My stockpile in the inventory are usually all that cyberpack jars and sticks thing that lets Jensen charged up his cell. I prefer going around cloaking and taking out those bad guys while unseen. Especially at the last, oh darn it I'm getting brain cramp, what the heck is that, with those crazies. I hate those crazies. Better to roam around while cloaked.

Shralla
13th Apr 2014, 19:14
Default inventory was crap. Increase ammo stack size and stop making certain things take up stupid amounts of space. For instance, mines were completely useless because of their size. Their gameplay functionality did not justify the space they took up in your inventory.

Make it so you have to pick augs and stick with them again. The forced choice between one aug or another in the original Deus Ex was part of what made the game so fantastic. So either make us choose between different augs for one slot, or make it so we can only attain half of the total augs in any given playthrough.

CyberP
13th Apr 2014, 21:05
For instance, mines were completely useless because of their size. Their gameplay functionality did not justify the space they took up in your inventory.

False. Mines and grenades were equal. Grenades= 1x1, but did not stack. Mines= 2x1, but stacked to two. This resulted in them being exactly the same in space taken.

Most stacking values for ammo were balanced well also, except the combat rifle and MP.


Make it so you have to pick augs and stick with them again. The forced choice between one aug or another in the original Deus Ex was part of what made the game so fantastic. So either make us choose between different augs for one slot, or make it so we can only attain half of the total augs in any given playthrough.

Yes, but we have ranted about the aug system plenty, they know :)

Edit: this is hypocritical of me. I looove to rant about the same ****.


Default inventory was crap

Why does it matter when everybody upgrades it and the aug system is not about C&C? Only if the aug system is redesigned to be like that in DX1 should the default inventory size be larger.

3rdmillhouse
14th Apr 2014, 01:25
One thing that I forgot:

As it stands, the Heavy Rifle is useless, it overheats to quickly and spends half a day revving up its barrels before actually firing them, which is factually wrong. Anyone with knowledge in mechanical engineering and firearms knows that a gatling gun doesn't have to spins the barrels 500 times to fire them, it's quite the opposite, a gatling gun fires almost instantly as you pull the trigger. So EM should correct that.

CyberP
14th Apr 2014, 01:45
One thing that I forgot:

As it stands, the Heavy Rifle is useless

The heavy rifle is beastly. You are mistaken. Rev it up before exposing yourself, attach the cooling system and burst fire when close to overheating, or just seek cover and wait a second or two.

zwanzig_zwoelf
14th Apr 2014, 02:01
bro laser rifle was the coolest weapon in human revolution it was like pewpewpew imma monster heavy rifle was cool for suppressing fire and stuff

Jerion
14th Apr 2014, 11:32
I would add another "pillar" of gameplay, or add new depth to an existing one, such as the Hacking/"Secrecy" pillar. Human Revolution played it safe, ticking the feature checkboxes, but only really pushed the envelope in terms of the social side of things. It would be intriguing to add a new dimension to hacking and the like, so that the player could control elements beyond cameras, doors, bots and turrets. Take some inspiration from Gunpoint and The Incredible Machine, play with the idea of deployable equipment and linking it into alarm systems. Think of it: Instead of just manipulating turret AI settings, have a deployable trip-laser so that you could build traps, then link them into existing security systems.

Beyond that, I suppose it would be excellent to add a new level of depth to AI interactions with environmental decoration; for example, instead of throwing a coffee pot, use it with the coffee machine to make coffee, so that the smell would attract the guards, creating a distraction. That sort of thing.

[FGS]Shadowrunner
14th Apr 2014, 12:44
I would add a pillar like social skills such as persuasion, leadership, carousing, streetwise and then particularly conversation and outcomes would differ according to the character's social skills. Example: The player has carousing skill/augmentation and is able to enter a bar and do business/conversation, whereas the unskilled player would not be streetwise enough and would get chased out. NPC behaviour and conversation would change according to the character attributes and skills chosen.

zwanzig_zwoelf
14th Apr 2014, 12:46
bro meh thats boring are we playing the game or skill numbers

[FGS]Shadowrunner
14th Apr 2014, 13:23
Just a way to personalize the character and add some realism, human nature into the game. Bots would not favour different characters, a human is a human, but a cop or black ops dude walking into the wrong bar should have some effect, whereas if a "streetwise" path was chosen, it would change the dynamics in certain situations, have no effect in others and be highly dangerous in others, arouse suspicion etc.

Ashpolt
14th Apr 2014, 15:21
As much as many seem to dislike it, I think "Deus Ex: Next" could take a few things from Thief:

-First person leaning!
-Pickpocketing - OK, it's not strictly necessary, but I think it'd be nice to "lift" ammo, keycards etc off patrolling guards. Bonus points if stealing ammo from them actually causes them to run dry after firing off their currently loaded clip. Bonus bonus points if this leads to a hilarious "confused" animation and them running away. Or throwing their gun at you.
-Body awareness - the way Garrett presses his hands up against surfaces, reaches out to grab items, etc all really adds to immersion. More of this in DX, please.
-Just generall making first person stealth a viable option.

Other than that....

-In-engine cutscenes should be rendered on the fly - not recorded, encoded at a resolution lower than I am running the game at, and then played back as video files. Thief and DXHR both did this and it's baffling. Looks worse, takes up more disk space. (I'm aware this isn't a gameplay thing, but it deserves a mention.)
-XP awarded should be based on the objectives you achieve, not on how you achieve them. We shouldn't be rewarded for choosing one playstyle over another.
-If we absolutely must have regenerating health, at least have it segmented, like DXHR's energy system. In fact, just swap the energy and health systems from DXHR around completely.
-Don't revisit areas so much. Detroit was great the first time I visited it. By the third time? Not so much.
-NO PRE-ORDER DLC THAT FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGES THE GAME. Big one, hence caps. Getting 10,000 credits just for having DLC completely screwed the early game economy. Similarly, the silenced sniper rifle shouldn't have been for pre-orders only. Ideally, let's not have pre-order exclusive (at least initially) DLC at all, but if you've got to have it, make it purely cosmetic.
-No invisible walls. It's 2014. We should be beyond this by now. I know my character has augmented legs and can jump pretty high, but if you don't want me going somewhere, put a barrier there.
-Proper melee combat rather than takedowns. Please.

....eh, there's probably a million other things, but that'll do for now.

3rdmillhouse
14th Apr 2014, 16:31
The heavy rifle is beastly. You are mistaken. Rev it up before exposing yourself, attach the cooling system and burst fire when close to overheating, or just seek cover and wait a second or two.

It's useless. You are the one mistaken here. You somehow changed yourself to make up for the weapon's shortcomings and decided that this somehow makes the weapon usefull.

CyberP
14th Apr 2014, 21:17
I used the weapon as it was intended to be used.

IDAFT
14th Apr 2014, 23:02
Shadows: they should consider bringing back, I think it's something that can work well for stealth.

Close Quarters Combat: needs beefing up, should be more hands on, players should be able to combo attacks, when they desire, block, counter, etc. Enemies should be able to melee too, mixes gameplay up a bit. The return of the sword would be cool!

3rdmillhouse
15th Apr 2014, 00:04
I used the weapon as it was intended to be used.

http://listagram.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/whatever2.gif


Shadows: they should consider bringing back, I think it's something that can work well for stealth.

There are shadows on this game, man. I don't know what you're talking about.

IDAFT
15th Apr 2014, 00:45
There are shadows on this game, man. I don't know what you're talking about.

Gameplay! Remember Deus Ex 1, when you can hide in the shadows, they should bring it back.

Sotcitcio
15th Apr 2014, 15:18
-No invisible walls. It's 2014. We should be beyond this by now. I know my character has augmented legs and can jump pretty high, but if you don't want me going somewhere, put a barrier there.


What do you mean by invisible walls?

Great post btw, you nailed it.

Something I didn't like in HR was the maps. I don't want to be able to see them (I know that I'm not forced). Instead make it like the first deus ex where there were blueprints, satellite images etc for certain locations.

Shralla
15th Apr 2014, 16:41
What do you mean by invisible walls?

Exactly what it sounds like.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_wall

Ashpolt
15th Apr 2014, 17:33
What do you mean by invisible walls?

As Shralla's link says, they're walls....which are invisible. :P More seriously, they're places that look like you should be able to travel through them, but you just bump into nothing and stop. Don't get me wrong, DXHR's wasn't exactly full of them, but I ran into a few - mostly at fairly high areas - and when I did, I was immediately taken out of the world. I like to go off the beaten path and find my own routes, so to spend a while setting up crates to jump over a fence (or similar) only to find that the thin air above that fence is, in fact, impassable was a bit of a disappointment - particularly when the area on the other side of the fence was perfectly accessible through other means, so it's not like the invisible wall was there to stop me from escaping the boundaries of the level.

CyberP
15th Apr 2014, 18:40
Fun fact: the original Deus Ex had quite a few invisible walls but they were almost always near the map boundaries. There are some on the dock right at the very start of the game to prevent players climbing up onto the outer ledge of the island.

Shralla
15th Apr 2014, 20:21
My biggest issue surrounding invisible barriers in HR actually had to do with invisible ceilings, not invisible walls. There were plenty of places in both city hubs that let you climb up pretty high, but then all of a sudden you try to jump and you only make it a foot off the ground before some invisible force pushes you back down. There was one part of Detroit in particular that had a small wall separating two playable spaces above some alley. I tried to jump the all, no luck. I tried to jump off a box next to the wall, didn't get any higher.

Then I scoured the level for boxes and the like that I could stand on, which highlighted another huge issue with HR which is the utter lack of functionally interactive items. In the original.Deus Ex I would have grabbed a crate, a trash can, and maybe a bag of trash or something, and been over that wall in thirty seconds. In HR I had to travel to different parts of the hub just to find things tall enough to stand on and stack. Then when I got back to where I was trying to jump over, the things I had set up already had disappeared!

Eventually I did stack a couple things and was able to look over the wall while standing on them, but jumping was just as fruitless as before. Some invisible squishy ceiling just over the height of the all was keeping me down. What a bunch of crap.

FrankCSIS
15th Apr 2014, 21:55
It would be intriguing to add a new dimension to hacking and the like, so that the player could control elements beyond cameras, doors, bots and turrets. Take some inspiration from Gunpoint and The Incredible Machine, play with the idea of deployable equipment and linking it into alarm systems. Think of it: Instead of just manipulating turret AI settings, have a deployable trip-laser so that you could build traps, then link them into existing security systems.

Lots of great stuff so far in this thread! This one by John has me all excited. You may very well be on to something here my man. It would bring a true dimension to hacking, instead of merely being a way in or out of something, and it adds an element of playfulness and creativity we've lost over the years, at the hands of "realism" and misinterpreted/misguided immersion. There's a whole lot less playing going on, and this right here is a great and original way to bring some back.

Shral, I must've spent one third of my time in Detroit going back and forth scavenging crates and boxes. Remember the argument behind regen health about not wanting players going back and forth for health? Well, I laughed the whole way through Detroit, carrying my crates!

Keep it up, I'm likin what I'm readin!

[FGS]Shadowrunner
16th Apr 2014, 11:24
You're talking about actors called "player blocks", the radii were sometimes set incorrectly and there are places where you can jump over or around them.

A map can "buffer" the out of bounds area with items in between so players only get a look at it. I'd rather see lots of out of bounds areas than know the exact city limits within five minutes.

Jito463
16th Apr 2014, 11:28
Shadowrunner;2002875']You're talking about actors called "player blocks", the radii were sometimes set incorrectly and there are places where you can jump over or around them.

A map can "buffer" the out of bounds area with items in between so players only get a look at it. I'd rather see lots of out of bounds areas than know the exact city limits within five minutes.

The point is, if they're going to block off areas that you can see - but not travel to - then make the barriers realistic, not invisible walls.

CyberP
16th Apr 2014, 11:48
The point is, if they're going to block off areas that you can see - but not travel to - then make the barriers realistic, not invisible walls.

That's not always possible in a game with super jumping and crate stacking. Invisible walls are not bad design, nearly every 3D game features them, it's all about the implementation. Did you know there was invisible walls in DX1? Not likely, because they were well-implemented for the most part. But in HR they are placed a little more carelessly in some places and also there are some meshes that are non-solid or whatever the lingo is in crystal engine, and you pass right through them if you try to jump on them.

All annoying? Yes, definitely a valid complaint, but HR has many other more important issues and shortcomings one could write an essay on.

zwanzig_zwoelf
16th Apr 2014, 12:40
bro you could crawl out of maps limits in invisible war i dont want that make invisible walls and stuff also i think it would be better if there were more markers so i wont get lost in the map

CyberP
16th Apr 2014, 12:43
You have a map. Use it.

Jito463
16th Apr 2014, 12:57
That's not always possible in a game with super jumping and crate stacking. Invisible walls are not bad design, nearly every 3D game features them, it's all about the implementation. Did you know there was invisible walls in DX1? Not likely, because they were well-implemented for the most part. But in HR they are placed a little more carelessly in some places and also there are some meshes that are non-solid or whatever the lingo is in crystal engine, and you pass right through them if you try to jump on them.

All annoying? Yes, definitely a valid complaint, but HR has many other more important issues and shortcomings one could write an essay on.

I meant in a general sense. Yes, I did realize that (and had even seen your earlier comment about it), but the fact was that it was virtually invisible (no pun intended) to the player. You had to work really hard to find them in DX, while you didn't have to work so hard to find them in HR. It wasn't as bad as some other games, but it was certainly more evident than in the first one.

And my post wasn't so much meant as a complaint, as it was about clarifying the previous conversations to Shadowrunner (and responding to his comment about inaccessible areas).

CyberP
16th Apr 2014, 14:36
Yes, anyway I agree with the point being made, that there should be less invisible walls. They should be to prevent players getting out of the playing zone only, and only when a visible barrier wouldn't be adequate. Though they do have other uses. For example, the primitive collision of static meshes in unreal 1/DX1 were cylindrical no matter the shape of the mesh, so vehicles for example had the most unbelievable collision of all meshes, was immersion breaking. To fix this in my mod I used numerous custom collisions (what is used for most invisible walls in DX) to spoof more realistic collision of some vehicles where it was necessary to do so.

Edit: What we want with DX4: The mythical game on the hill, god-like, true design genius.

What we will likely get: a game slightly better than HR and with plenty microtransations such as THIS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT1ycFs618g).

R.I.P AAA gaming.

Lucifer
16th Apr 2014, 17:26
ohh **** another game with trasactions?Everyone wants money ,that suck.

Shralla
16th Apr 2014, 18:26
I wish I could get a Snoop Dogg voice pack for games I liked. Just saying.

CyberP
16th Apr 2014, 18:35
I wish I could get a Snoop Dogg voice pack for games I liked. Just saying.

Yeah? What about microtransations to even be able to equip things? That game has microtransactions up the butt to account for all the lost fans due to it being a poorly-designed mess.

Jerion
16th Apr 2014, 20:23
I wish I could get a Snoop Dogg voice pack for games I liked. Just saying.

And a Jeff Goldblum voice pack.

Spyhopping
16th Apr 2014, 20:39
Goldblum is nothing without his hand gestures.

zDy3g9tMcz8
(I have no idea what this is. It was entitled "Jeff Goldblum as a centaur with lobster claws for hands")

I'd like to see some more sophisticated augmentations when it comes to basic senses. You could do all sorts with super-sensitive hearing. Also, I hope vents stop being the sanctuary of every environment. If they see me crawl in, let NPCs follow me. IW got this part right- I seem to remember that one of the more advanced bot types could move through vents.

hybridex
17th Apr 2014, 20:22
That is just so messed up! Ha ha! That could had been from his "The Fly" days..

hybridex
17th Apr 2014, 20:26
Shadowrunner;2002875']You're talking about actors called "player blocks", the radii were sometimes set incorrectly and there are places where you can jump over or around them.

A map can "buffer" the out of bounds area with items in between so players only get a look at it. I'd rather see lots of out of bounds areas than know the exact city limits within five minutes.

Kinda blows, though, that we are restricted within the city's boundary or blocked by the trucks and barriers. Imagine the possibility of DX4 being an open world..

Gumpo10k
20th Apr 2014, 14:16
I'm basically just going to reiterate what has been said from the start on this one...
Mechanically...

Less invisible barriers, which should lead to slightly more open level design in general. The Detroit city hub i felt was pretty well done, except for when jumping around - there were plenty of places i should have been able to get to, but then got forced out of it. I understand that at the edge of a level, but in the center i should be allowed to go there, and rewarded for it.

That kind of leads into the next request for more ways to progress in most of the levels. While the hubs were pretty well done, there were only a few missions that really offered more than a single approach - either go in and sneak through ducts, or go in and shoot people. Take the first mission for example - you can easily sneak past the majority of the guards - compare that to DX1's liberty island where instead of sneaking through the entire facility, i could just climb up on the outside and get right to the leader and accomplish the mission. I think more of the levels should be slightly larger and more sand-box like - i don't want it as open as Elder Scrolls or Fallout, not by a longshot - but HR would have been amazing if the majority of the levels were just 50% to 100% larger, mostly on the outer areas allowing the plan a different entry.

I'm also not a fan of the hodgepodge of pre-rendered cut scenes. I'm guessing they were done because lower end computers and probably the consoles couldnt keep up a good frame rate when rendering them in game, so they rendered the ones that were causing issues. First of all, these should be rendered at an insanely high resolution if they have to be pre-rendered, and on PC at least come uncompressed, then compress them as necessary onto other hardware to fit the media. I'd think it wouldnt be too hard to incorporate an option into the engine to check them as pre-rendered on and off - so maybe most PCs cant handle rendering it right when the game is released, so they run a system test on start up, determine it should play the pre-rendered ones. Then a few years later when you have better hardware, it just renders them in engine. Result is virtually the same, but no change in video quality or resolution between play time and cut scene time.

Mirrors. Yeah, i really can't let this one go - you know the devs worked extra hard just to get that basketball into HR because "The original Deus Ex had it." I'd like to see them do the same with mirrors. I understand that creates a bit of a problem for having to animate the main characters player model, but that shouldn't be too hard as all the NPCs have animations for pretty much anything you could be doing already that you should be able to copy paste over, and tweak slightly, right? I don't mind if i walk past a mirror carrying a box and its just floating in front of me - considering you could simply put the mirrors, you know - only in bathrooms. How often do you need to go box stacking in a bathroom? I don't think you've ever had to in any of the DX games - and DX1 had some pretty crucial bathrooms. It shouldn't be too hard to incorporate them in bathrooms, to create a sense of immersion, without worrying about the player doing weird things in front of them. I'm sure some people will go out of their way to, but overall i think it would be a better experience even with animation for the main character limited to ones similar to the first DX.

No "Press the button" to pick the ending. DX1 did it well - defeating the boss in different ways ended the game differently. HR was better than Mass Effect 3 in that 3 of the endings did require you doing something else beforehand, but it still feels cheap that you can play the last level well, beat the boss, save, and then get all 4 endings off the same savegame. I'd like wildly different endings based on choices in the middle of the game, (think if DX1 let you stay with Unatco) but i think that's a pipe dream - so maybe have the ending show several of the characters and location you interacted with, and the repercussions of those actions.

Keep rewards even. It really bothered me that HR rewarded players with more XP for doing non-lethal takedowns, not being caught or seen, and hacking when they didn't need to. You should get the same XP reward when you get into a locked terminal regardless of how it was done. When you get to the end of the level, if you were unseen get the ghost bonus - if you were seen, but you killed everyone - get a different named bonus with the same reward. Both lethal and nonlethal takedowns should have the same xp bonus - though im totally okay with you getting more for doing two at a time, and more for scoring headshots / 1 shot kills.

Melee weapons would be nice. As would a larger variety of weapons in general - there are two styles of pistol in HR, it would have been nice to see two styles of assault rifle, smg, etc. as well - could use the same ammo for simplicity, but have different stats that would suit different players needs. When picking up the gun from the floor, there should be a long-press to "pick up gun" while a quick tap would just take the ammo from it, to stop from clogging the inventory.

While i did like the inventory overall in HR, i would like to see it get a bit of a makeover. I found it jarring that a double barreled shotgun took up less pace in my inventory than a pistol.:scratch: Also gotta love the crash to desktop whenever you added a mod to a gun that made it larger when you didnt have enough space in your inventory - Nothing wrong with changing the size of the gun, if your adding a silencer it should take up more space, but you should warn the player first. I'd like to see the ammo scale with quantity and type. Pistol ammo could be 1x1 until you hit more than 50, then it grows to 2x1. I found myself regularly dropping 1 or 2 rounds in HR because it was taking up 2 whole inventory slots.

And oh, did i mention boss fights? I think this has been done to death, but i had to mention it - let me handle them the same way i handled them in DX1 - saying "Laputan Machine" and watching them self destruct, killing them before they go hostile on you, or just running away. Director's Cut addition of other ways to make the boss fights easier for players with less combat ability was nice too - i'd like to be able to brute force kill, use other interesting method to kill, and simply avoid every boss - Perhaps have a social boss option with some of them to talk them into joining your side and helping you out in the next game area? (Dealing with the boss in the missing link was pretty great.)

Story wise...

Depending on how the writers wan't to go - i'd like to see the franchise take the Mass Effect approach - You could continue the story of Adam and use an existing save game to determine which characters are alive or not, etc - seeing Malik come back if you saved her, etc would be really cool. (I never DIDNT save her, what happens if you let her die? Does Jock show up instead?) Or you could start from scratch with new characters - the important thing here is that you could create a long narrative that draws off of choices made from the first game - it adds depth and really gets you attached to characters.

I'd like to see the story of how the NSF came into existence... "Human Defiance" could probably work as a title for a game that revolves around that...

...Well i think i just covered everything ever in this topic.

Karpaw
20th Apr 2014, 22:00
Square Enix sees the light? (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-03-31-surprise-bravely-default-success-sparks-square-enix-rethink)

WildcatPhoenix
20th Apr 2014, 22:48
Square Enix sees the light? (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-03-31-surprise-bravely-default-success-sparks-square-enix-rethink)

Must..not...hope...

FrankCSIS
21st Apr 2014, 03:14
Square is multiplying statements like this, but so far hasn't done anything to walk the talk. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

CyberP
21st Apr 2014, 05:15
Fingers firmly crossed.

hybridex
21st Apr 2014, 17:11
I'm basically just going to reiterate what has been said from the start on this one...
Mechanically...

...Well i think i just covered everything ever in this topic.

Yeah man.. god damn, good details. You must be a writer, by trade.

rlilewi
27th Apr 2014, 12:29
Hi guys, sorry appreciate this thread is over a week old but want to add some of my own points, which may overlap with those summed up above.

* Scrap the 3rd person sticky cover system and return to first person leaning. This probably won't happen due to console controller limitations but I really dislike 3rd person cover systems; they allow you to observe the area without actually exposing yourself and can also line up shots even with the cursor disabled. The other reason I hate them is due to the fact you are "stuck" on the piece of cover until your press a button to disconnect yourself, which imo is not intuitive and very awkward to deal with when being flanked, although we have seen from Tomb Raider that this doesn't have to be the case and I really enjoyed the combat in that game with the free flowing cover system, although I wish it had a crouch button! Not sure how they would implement the TR cover model without going totally 3rd person (which I'm not against!). Personally I think they either need to be totally 1st person OR 3rd person not some weird mash up of both.

* More options for combat play-throughs please! A major down point for me in HR was the incredible weakness of Adam when on the highest difficulty in open combat; he dies extremely fast and bizarrely many of the human enemies take far more punishment than you do (not to even mention those bosses!). IMO this really constricts re-playability for me; in the original you could get 97% damage mitigation I believe from maxed ballistic shield aug and maxed environmental training with ballistic armour while HR you can only get 45% if I'm not mistaken. JC could also run way faster, jump insanely high and have an aug to detonate explosives from range, combine that with the flamer/plasma rifle and GEP gun and JC could be a terminator running rings around bots and jumping into hordes of enemies with a flamer to slaughter everything... Adam on the other hand just feels like every other generic 1st/3rd person shooter. There need to be much more combat related augmentations and the power of those that already exist (dermal impact armour) need massive buffs; there is far too much focus on stealth in the game, don't get me wrong I love stealth playthroughs but I also want to play a terminator :). To balance this out there needs to be severe consequences for raising the alarm; more heavily armed bots and the ability for the enemy to call in large reinforcement waves from off map (helicopters/APCs).

* Get rid of silly melee cut scenes and give us melee weapons! I thought the cut scenes were cool and all but they're also completely dumb. Why does melee cost energy? As far as I can tell there is absolutely no reason for this nonsense. I would be cool if Adam just stuck to his arm blades but they were an equipable weapon and they could be augmented to hit much harder or hit with different effects (eg EMP damage from shifter mod).

* Streamline the augs. I never thought I would be calling for streamlining in a game least of all DX but seriously can we please reduce the massive clutter? If some of the garbage augs were removed and others merged into a single aug then that would give more room for more useful augs such as those relating to combat! This isn't universal but things like arms for example, why do I need to put points into carry heavy objects AND increased inventory space AND reduced recoil? Why not just have an aug that increases strength and then have 3-4 levels of that which improves all 3 each upgrade. Limit the max number of aug slots that can be filled in each location similar to how it was done in the first game to create more diversity of playthroughs.

FrankCSIS
27th Apr 2014, 15:57
Gotta agree the Aug Tree was somewhat questionable. Seems to me it's all linked to the playstyles issue. Augs appeared to be playstyle-oriented, but only on the surface, and the differences between approaches were generally too subtle, not to say rather shallow. And it all shows in the tree and its dubious structure. The end result is surprisingly more Splinter Cell With Stats, than chose-your-approach. Doesn't make it a bad experience, but it clearly did not accomplish what it set out to do.

Once again, I think they might have wanted to be prudent with their first run and test the audience. Now that the basics are established, it's a great opportunity to add two extra layers and make the next experience a delicious one. To make a hockey analogy the devs can appreciate, you need more depth to win the cup.

To reiterate on the whole issue of gaming as an active experience, I was reminded again last night how all great board games have an element of puzzle to them, if ever so slightly. Beyond strategy, be it blunt or filled with finesse, there's this idea of a construct based on properly stacked pieces. To be a lot more fun, the player approaches, or "how am I going to do this", needs to be more elemental, less polished, or grittier, if you want. A spark of pure playfulness. That's why I like John's approach to hacking so damn much. And no, it will not affect the immersion in a negative way. Quite the contrary in fact. The basic line here is, people, of all ages, like to play.

Just imagine how much more fun Gears of War might have gotten later in the franchise, if one member of the unit carried automatic turrets and/or portable deployable cover to quickly set up your defense position in the rush of the battle. A small element, which changes the entire dynamic.

CyberP
28th Apr 2014, 01:33
* Scrap the 3rd person sticky cover system and return to first person leaning. This probably won't happen due to console controller limitations

This again? PC-only types an their ignorance.
Removing sticky cover frees up a button (L2/LB). On Hold of LB/L2, and then using the left stick allows for pressure sensitive leaning in ALL directions on one axis utilizing the higher angular resolution and pressure sensitivivity of the stick. Not only can it do leaning, it can do far superior leaning than simply Q/E.


A major down point for me in HR was the incredible weakness of Adam when on the highest difficulty in open combat; he dies extremely fast and bizarrely many of the human enemies take far more punishment than you do (not to even mention those bosses!). IMO this really constricts re-playability for me; in the original you could get 97% damage mitigation I believe from maxed ballistic shield aug and maxed environmental training with ballistic armour while HR you can only get 45% if I'm not mistaken. JC could also run way faster, jump insanely high and have an aug to detonate explosives from range, combine that with the flamer/plasma rifle and GEP gun and JC could be a terminator running rings around bots and jumping into hordes of enemies with a flamer to slaughter everything... Adam on the other hand just feels like every other generic 1st/3rd person shooter. There need to be much more combat related augmentations and the power of those that already exist (dermal impact armour) need massive buffs; there is far too much focus on stealth in the game, don't get me wrong I love stealth playthroughs but I also want to play a terminator :). To balance this out there needs to be severe consequences for raising the alarm; more heavily armed bots and the ability for the enemy to call in large reinforcement waves from off map (helicopters/APCs).


From the sounds of things you just want easy difficulty. Regeneration and ballistic protection augs in DX1 were near god-mode cheats. They also screwed significantly with the balance of the aug system, skill system, and game in general. At least they were a choice though.

Example of screwery:

Regeneration negated pretty much all damage types except explosives. You could even counter drowning and radiation damage with it. Seriously, it sticks out as a sore thumb in regards to gameplay; choice and consequence, balance, challenge. "hey guys lets code in all these skills and augs but then completely negate the majority with one singular god-mode like aug given to you through normal progression". DX is my favourite game of all time but some design decisions just don't fit in with the rest of the amazing design.


* Streamline the augs. I never thought I would be calling for streamlining in a game least of all DX but seriously can we please reduce the massive clutter? If some of the garbage augs were removed and others merged into a single aug then that would give more room for more useful augs such as those relating to combat! This isn't universal but things like arms for example, why do I need to put points into carry heavy objects AND increased inventory space AND reduced recoil? Why not just have an aug that increases strength and then have 3-4 levels of that which improves all 3 each upgrade.

No. Lets focus on this specifically:


his isn't universal but things like arms for example, why do I need to put points into carry heavy objects AND increased inventory space AND reduced recoil? Why not just have an aug that increases strength and then have 3-4 levels of that which improves all 3 each upgrade.

Having these separate allows for greater choice (and consequence, and gameplay depth). All HR's aug system needs is a ton of rebalancing efforts and to not allow you to have them all in one playthrough, more like half. After this is accomplished, it could be superior to DX1's system if executed correctly (and without the crappy energy system of course, and swapping takedown augs for proper melee, and splitting cloak into two opposing types as in DX1, and so on).



Limit the max number of aug slots that can be filled in each location similar to how it was done in the first game to create more diversity of playthroughs.

See, with this, in combination with a refined and expanded HR aug system, big things could happen. DX1's aug system is great, better designed than HR's in an overall sense, though regen loses it many points, and it can easily be bested...I already have (<- fact statement).
In some ways they did expand upon it in HR, there is ultimately more choice, but they ditched many things about DX's system that was so great and it isn't very well balanced to boot. There is potential there though.

Shralla
28th Apr 2014, 03:23
I hate stick/mouse leaning, just for the record. I'd rather have dedicated buttons. Lets you move around while you're leaning.

Tried this out at PAX East, it worked pretty excellently. Analog keypad with pressure sensitive keys so you can get analog functionality out of a traditional keyboard setup. Would love for it to make its goal but it doesn't seem possible unfortunately.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/aimpad/aimpadtm-pc-gaming-analog-keyboard

Jito463
28th Apr 2014, 03:49
I hate stick/mouse leaning, just for the record. I'd rather have dedicated buttons. Lets you move around while you're leaning.

Tried this out at PAX East, it worked pretty excellently. Analog keypad with pressure sensitive keys so you can get analog functionality out of a traditional keyboard setup. Would love for it to make its goal but it doesn't seem possible unfortunately.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/aimpad/aimpadtm-pc-gaming-analog-keyboard

Nothing I could afford, even if it looked like they'd achieve funding, but I pledged for $1 so I could at least follow updates on the project, assuming they retry later. It does look interesting.

CyberP
28th Apr 2014, 14:24
I hate stick/mouse leaning, just for the record. I'd rather have dedicated buttons. Lets you move around while you're leaning.


Yes, one advantage of good ol' QE/dedicated buttons. In my Deus Ex mod we added Lean/peak up from crouch, or stand on tiptoes from standing, both by holding both Q+E. It's funny because you can toddle along slowly on tiptoes :)

Mouse leaning, which game/s features this? At least with stick leaning you can effectively aim whilst doing it.

3rdmillhouse
28th Apr 2014, 16:08
EM should give us knives and battons on the Mankind Divided so we can execute lethal and non-lethal takedowns without having to spend bio-electric energy. But there would be a caveat: we could only execute takedown with these weapons if we catch the enemy by surprise, otherwise we would have to swing away until the enemy dies or is knocked out.

Jito463
28th Apr 2014, 16:17
EM should give us knives and battons on the Mankind Divided so we can execute lethal and non-lethal takedowns without having to spend bio-electric energy. But there would be a caveat: we could only execute takedown with these weapons if we catch the enemy by surprise, otherwise we would have to swing away until the enemy dies or is knocked out.

Gee, that sounds surprisingly (not really) like Deus Ex (the original). If you snuck up on an enemy, and hit them unaware, the damage was multiplied and you could knock them out or kill them in one blow, assuming you hit them in the right areas. If the enemy was aware of you, the damage was reduced and it took considerably more hits to take them down. With upgraded melee skill, it was possible to even take down MIB's/MJ12 armored troops with the baton, if you hit them in the sweet spot (middle of lower back) while unaware.

Get rid of the whole "takedown" concept, and you'd have a system not dissimilar to the classic.

Shralla
28th Apr 2014, 16:37
I... Might have imagined mouse lean. I think I was considering a PC replacement for analog lean and decided that was the thing that made sense.

3rdmillhouse
28th Apr 2014, 17:05
Gee, that sounds surprisingly (not really) like Deus Ex (the original). If you snuck up on an enemy, and hit them unaware, the damage was multiplied and you could knock them out or kill them in one blow, assuming you hit them in the right areas. If the enemy was aware of you, the damage was reduced and it took considerably more hits to take them down. With upgraded melee skill, it was possible to even take down MIB's/MJ12 armored troops with the baton, if you hit them in the sweet spot (middle of lower back) while unaware.

Get rid of the whole "takedown" concept, and you'd have a system not dissimilar to the classic.

I like the takedowns because they have such badass animatiions, makes me feel like I'm Jason Bourne.

Jito463
28th Apr 2014, 17:44
I like the takedowns because they have such badass animatiions, makes me feel like I'm Jason Bourne.

*facepalm*

Where does one even go from there? I....I...never mind. *sigh*

WildcatPhoenix
28th Apr 2014, 18:29
The thing is, I don't mind takedowns being in the game.

My solution to fixing takedowns in DX4:

1. Bring back skills. The "augs vs skills" balance system of the original DX was one of my favorite components of the game.

2. Add a martial arts or hand-to-hand combat skill to the tree. As you upgrade this skill, your character can perform more powerful or more acrobatic attacks and/or take down more enemies. Instant kill/disable takedowns can only be performed when an NPC is in passive or non-alert mode. Do away with the energy requirement for them altogether. So dumb.

3. GIVE US REGULAR MELEE WEAPONS FOR THOSE WHO DON'T WANT TO USE TAKEDOWNS.

This approach allows players who want to use takedowns to use them, and those who don't still have a viable melee option (stealth or straightforward assault). It also prevents players from abusing the takedown system because they still are required to get in close to an enemy without alerting him. The player should never be completely unable to perform a melee attack simply because he hasn't eaten enough candy bars or such nonsense.

CyberP
28th Apr 2014, 19:11
The thing is, I don't mind first person takedowns being in the game.

Fixed :D

Shralla
28th Apr 2014, 21:16
I like the takedowns because they have such badass animatiions, makes me feel like I'm Jason Bourne.

Well you shouldn't because Jason Bourne works hard using his mind and environment to earn every KO. Nothing about pushing a button and receiving an animation should make you feel like Jason Bourne.

zwanzig_zwoelf
28th Apr 2014, 22:14
bro i agree takedowns are awesome and feel rewarding like wow im actually doing this maybe you need to play more of it to start fully appreciating the game

Spyhopping
29th Apr 2014, 09:24
*facepalm*

Where does one even go from there? I....I...never mind. *sigh*


Well you shouldn't because Jason Bourne works hard using his mind and environment to earn every KO. Nothing about pushing a button and receiving an animation should make you feel like Jason Bourne.


3rdmillhouse can think whatever he likes. You should both respect his opinion.

68_pie
29th Apr 2014, 11:36
You should both respect his opinion.

No.

We should respect his right to have that opinion. We are under no obligation to respect the opinion itself.

Spyhopping
29th Apr 2014, 12:24
We are under no obligation to respect the opinion itself.

Yes you are. You are expected to behave in a respectful way generally, so there's no point dissecting the different applications of respect in this context.


TOU:

Rule #6: Treat members and their opinions with respect.

The Eidos Forums are a place to discuss things in a friendly manner. This does not mean that everyone always has to agree on certain subjects. Natural difference of opinion can lead to quality debates and conversations; however these topics and debates get out of hand when people do not respect different opinions.

68_pie
29th Apr 2014, 12:55
Well, respectfully, my opinion is that his opinion was really dumb.

Edit ~

What if the opinion was against the ToU?! What rule takes precedence?! It could get horribly circular.

CyberP
29th Apr 2014, 13:22
Well, respectfully, my opinion is that his opinion was really dumb..

I think "lacked perspective" was the words you were looking for. I wouldn't exactly say his opinion was dumb. You can agree that to a person who doesn't game much or play games of this type, or ponder the working of game design, those takedowns would make him feel to some degree like an action hero type. So he is not exactly wrong, he just doesn't know better :)

Spyhopping
29th Apr 2014, 15:04
Go easy. Putting "respectfully" at the start of your sentence doesn't make it automatically... respectful.

I think I have used up my word quota for "respect" today. Where's that thesaurus?



What if the opinion was against the ToU?! What rule takes precedence?! It could get horribly circular.

Oh... it might get very ugly.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xhDj3ZP5pU4/ThBoXoD-h2I/AAAAAAAAAk4/Ljtr5ivsUwo/s1600/vlcsnap-790936.jpg

Lady_Of_The_Vine
29th Apr 2014, 18:03
What if the opinion was against the ToU?! What rule takes precedence?! It could get horribly circular.

No circles....
If an opinion violates this forum's ToU, then it is simply not allowed to be expressed.
It goes without saying (or so I thought) that there are some opinions that are best kept to yourself.
Consider what type of 'best-kept-to-yourself' opinions these might be.... and you will have the answer to your question. ;)

Shralla
29th Apr 2014, 18:14
3rdmillhouse can think whatever he likes. You should both respect his opinion.

I never disrespected it. Unless disagreeing is disrespectful now?

Lady_Of_The_Vine
29th Apr 2014, 19:27
I never disrespected it. Unless disagreeing is disrespectful now?
You are allowed to disagree with an opinion, but you are expected to respectfully disagree with that opinion.

FrankCSIS
29th Apr 2014, 22:53
What the **** is going on in my thread!

Jerion
29th Apr 2014, 23:18
The internet happened. It is a strange place.

FrankCSIS
29th Apr 2014, 23:54
The internet happened. It is a strange place.

You mods are too soft. I think I'll take justice into my own hands in this thread.

So here's the deal. You guys keep this up, I'll start posting pictures of boys kissing. The more you bicker, the less clothes they'll have on.

I may be as ruthless as a Solovetsky gulag, but the ends justify the means!

So...about that gameplay!

68_pie
30th Apr 2014, 01:07
If we have to have takedowns then they should be first person and as a reward for stealthily approaching someone - an alternative to a sneak-kill or a one-hit knockout if you will. If we have to have them.

FrankCSIS
30th Apr 2014, 01:18
Has a first person game ever allowed to chokehold someone from behind, and drag him as he faints? A bit like a non-lethal alternative to the wonderful piano wire.

Of course, you couldn't do this with all types of units.

zwanzig_zwoelf
30th Apr 2014, 02:53
bro first person takedowns sound bad imagine how you're choking the girl and your mother walks in the room and she is like wtf r u doing son are you playing rapelay again and then you're like mom its deus ex how could you and run out of the room crying

FrankCSIS
30th Apr 2014, 03:22
Would have been far from the most embarrassing thing folks have walked on when I stayed home!

Really though, I can't imagine why I've never seen first person chokeholds before. Seems even back in 2000 they would have been rather simple to animate. Gameplay-wise, Hitman's deadly version proved to work rather well, if you forget the dreadful control issues of the first game.

I'll say, it wouldn't have the Batman-factor of a takedown. But really, they got old after the first ten times, roughly twenty minutes into the game.

Jito463
30th Apr 2014, 04:41
The biggest problem with "takedowns" is that they remove you from the immersive nature of the game. You press a button, and *watch* it happen. As opposed to in Deus Ex, when you'd sneak up behind a guard and whack them with the baton, and you actually *made* it happen. It pulls you out of the game. Instead of playing the game, you're watching the game play itself. It's not fun, and it's not good.


Has a first person game ever allowed to chokehold someone from behind, and drag him as he faints?

Yes, Dishonored does it exceptionally well.

Shralla
30th Apr 2014, 05:19
So here's the deal. You guys keep this up, I'll start posting pictures of boys kissing. The more you bicker, the less clothes they'll have on.

Hm...


So...about that gameplay!

It's either terrible or awesome, whichever one you disagree with and your opinion is both bad and wrong!

You should really play Dishonored.

Ashpolt
30th Apr 2014, 10:22
Has a first person game ever allowed to chokehold someone from behind, and drag him as he faints?

Die Hard Vendetta. On the Gamecube. Back in 2002.

FrankCSIS
30th Apr 2014, 22:30
Hm...

If any offense is taken, none was intended. It's strictly, by far, the most efficient threat one can display across the male-driven intergalacticweb :p


Yes, Dishonored does it exceptionally well.

You should really play Dishonored.

It's awaiting in my pile of shame. Consider me doubly intrigued.


Die Hard Vendetta. On the Gamecube. Back in 2002.

Well, it's settled then. Let's scrap the third person non-lethal takedown!

ZakKa89
1st May 2014, 14:26
Just some quick points:

- Less ammo! I couldn't believe the complaining that ammo was too scarce. I was swimming in bullets.
- Give us even more vertical gameplay.
- There is a lot more that can be done with hacking computers. Maybe instead of just being able to check e-mails, you can find usefull videos/ pictures / audio on PC's.
- I'd also love to see better and more advanced security systems. Thinking of retinal scans, motion sensors, whatever.
- Animals! Genetically altered bloodthirsty animals which I can unleash on guards/scientists

3rdmillhouse
1st May 2014, 15:29
Just some quick points:

- Less ammo! I couldn't believe the complaining that ammo was too scarce. I was swimming in bullets.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im_5QdHp04E

You're missing the point about the Deus Ex Franchise. This franchise isn't about forcing the player to be stealthy, it's about giving the player the freedom to tackle the objectives any way he choose to.

Shralla
1st May 2014, 18:12
- Less ammo! I couldn't believe the complaining that ammo was too scarce. I was swimming in bullets.

They kinda threw ammo at you in DX1 though, and I never minded it. There was so much ammo in HR because they limited how much you could carry, which I wasn't a huge fan of. At least the default stack sizes.

CyberP
1st May 2014, 18:54
They kinda threw ammo at you in DX1 though, and I never minded it.

It's a simple fact that limited ammo forces more tactical and varied gameplay, and in a game like Deus Ex where there are so many tactical options and tools I'd take the HR approach and be limiting with ammo in some way (did already in my mod, but I'm talking about if I were in charge of a new DX). HR wins here, I believe. Ammo counts in DX1 were way too generous.
Deus Ex's gameplay arguably requires more brains than it does brawns, and limited ammo adds to this. If you want Deus Ex where you have to use your brain much more than vanilla, try my mod. And I'm not talking calculus or some such, it's intended to entertainment/Deus Ex at it's finest.

ZakKa89
1st May 2014, 19:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im_5QdHp04E

You're missing the point about the Deus Ex Franchise. This franchise isn't about forcing the player to be stealthy, it's about giving the player the freedom to tackle the objectives any way he choose to.

What are you trying to say, that you can not play shooty shooty when there is less ammo? I played the game both stealthily and trigger happy and I can say that even when you you play John Woo style there is still too much ammo. Besides, less ammo will force the triggerhappy player to actually aim for the head and think about his approach.

So basically: my point about less ammo does not necessarily have to do with stealth. I don't need to be reminded that Deus Ex is about tackling objectives the way you choose to, I quicksave in almost every situation so I can try out different approaches. :D

And also what CyberP said ^

Sponge
8th May 2014, 22:27
Besides, less ammo will force the triggerhappy player to actually aim for the head and think about his approach.

As well as encourage the player to use different weapons (or at least it would in DX1, where ammo didn't take up inventory space but you had a fixed limit for each weapon).

----

One thing I think DX did better than DX:HR is that in DX, each level felt more "sandboxy". There were more places to go, and some places you could wander were not very useful but you could still go there. It felt like the default level design approach (at least for outdoor maps) was to allow the player to go anywhere unless they explicitly needed to be prevented from going somewhere. In DX:HR it feels more like the opposite: Yes, there are alternate paths and routes, but it feels more like anything that doesn't have an explicitly designed reason for allowing a player to go there was blocked off. The DX1 approach feels far more natural and immersive, and allows for more exploration, which gives the player more of a feeling that they are really formulating their own plan of approach rather than being funnelled by the map layout.

Some examples in DX1 (in no particular order) are Liberty Island, Area 51, the abandoned gas station, the submarine base, the Paris streets around La Porte de l'Enfer, the French cathedral... they all had lots of open space you could use to maneuver around enemies, find alternate entrances, move around and over or through buildings, etc. This more-open level design also allows alternate routes to be spread out and require some (minimal) effort to find, instead of having (a) the hackable door, (b) the locked vent, and (c) the guard by the window/open corridor all basically in or adjacent to the same room, which is more how DX:HR did things.

CyberP
8th May 2014, 23:06
As well as encourage the player to use different weapons (or at least it would in DX1, where ammo didn't take up inventory space but you had a fixed limit for each weapon).

----

One thing I think DX did better than DX:HR is that in DX, each level felt more "sandboxy". There were more places to go, and some places you could wander were not very useful but you could still go there. It felt like the default level design approach (at least for outdoor maps) was to allow the player to go anywhere unless they explicitly needed to be prevented from going somewhere. In DX:HR it feels more like the opposite: Yes, there are alternate paths and routes, but it feels more like anything that doesn't have an explicitly designed reason for allowing a player to go there was blocked off. The DX1 approach feels far more natural and immersive, and allows for more exploration, which gives the player more of a feeling that they are really formulating their own plan of approach rather than being funnelled by the map layout.

Some examples in DX1 (in no particular order) are Liberty Island, Area 51, the abandoned gas station, the submarine base, the Paris streets around La Porte de l'Enfer, the French cathedral... they all had lots of open space you could use to maneuver around enemies, find alternate entrances, move around and over or through buildings, etc. This more-open level design also allows alternate routes to be spread out and require some (minimal) effort to find, instead of having (a) the hackable door, (b) the locked vent, and (c) the guard by the window/open corridor all basically in or adjacent to the same room, which is more how DX:HR did things.

You post this as if it were an opinion. That's all factual buddy ;)

FrankCSIS
8th May 2014, 23:24
The level of truth in this post exceeds the maximum limit permitted.

Sponge
8th May 2014, 23:51
You post this as if it were an opinion. That's all factual buddy ;)

I know you were being humorous, but you have a good point in there too. The level design details may all be fact, but it's not always obvious when comparing games which differences in particular contribute to one or the other being better, and that's where the opinions come in :)

EDIT: Whoops, missed this one:


Has a first person game ever allowed to chokehold someone from behind, and drag him as he faints? A bit like a non-lethal alternative to the wonderful piano wire.

The first Splinter Cell (and probably all its sequels, but I didn't play them all). (Ok, the target didn't faint, you clubbed him unconscious after releasing him, but the effect is the same).

Jito463
8th May 2014, 23:59
The first Splinter Cell (and probably all its sequels, but I didn't play them all). (Ok, the target didn't faint, you clubbed him unconscious after releasing him, but the effect is the same).

I considered that one, but he specifically said "first-person". Splinter Cell is a third-person game.

FrankCSIS
9th May 2014, 00:12
Yeah I'm afraid I must insist on the first person bit of the comment ;)

It may need a little upgrade, but fundamentally, it worked quite well for Splinter Cell. Something similar, in first p could be pretty boss.

Sponge
9th May 2014, 05:58
I considered that one, but he specifically said "first-person". Splinter Cell is a third-person game.

I could have sworn you could zoom right in to first person... it's been a long time, though.

ZakKa89
10th May 2014, 09:34
Yeah I'm afraid I must insist on the first person bit of the comment ;)


I kept thinking and thinking about older games, but I got the answer for you!

Far Cry 3!!

Once you upgrade a certain skill, you can do a takedown from behind and move the guy for s short period of time before dropping him on the ground. Great game.

EDIT: it is a lethal takedown though...

AdrianShephard
20th May 2014, 20:20
All good points, especially the guy talking about the giant sandbox levels in DX 1. The hubs in HR were alright but they felt too small and restricted. I want the complexity of Hell's Kitchen from the first game: There was the obvious street level area, the little smuggler hideout, the entire MJ12 base underground, the 'Ton Hotel, the clinic, the rooftops and warehouse area, and all the secrets in between. I literally spent 5 hours in that area finding everything and reading all the books/newspapers.

Going back to the combat, I don't like how stealth is more rewarded than violence. Now I'm not the type of person who goes around shooting everything, but like in DX 1, I like to control my firefights. That essentially means being loud but never triggering an alarm. With HR, I felt at a disadvantage if I engaged in a firefight because I would miss out on XP. I, like many others here, would appreciate if we got XP for completing objectives. I am, however, OK with an extra bonus for not setting off any alarms.

What irked me the most about HR though (and I know this is going a bit off the thread topic) is the writing. I bet others don't share this opinion but I don't really find the whole "to augment or not to augment" business that interesting, or at least EM didn't make me that interested. There was no huge curve balls in the game on the caliber of the UNATCO-MJ12 plot twist that was in DX 1 (you should've seen the look on my face when JC escaped the MJ12 jail only to find that it is part of the UNATCO bunker). The level of detail that Ion Storm put into DX 1 is staggering; an example is the newspapers early in the game that mention chlorine poisoning in the water and then finding emails in the underground MJ12 base about a "shipment of chlorine" coming in. Also the different outcomes of dialogue are awesome (for example, if someone tells you information and JC replies saying that he already knows). Little things like this, even if the average player misses them, is what I believe makes a game legendary.

I found this post online from another website of a guy who I believe captures what's really missing from HR:


Best example that comes to mind in regards to writing in the games is the three “boss fights.” (which btw. didn’t bother me anywhere near as much as everyone else it seems) In DX1 we get Navarre, Hermann and Simmons, as mentioned before. All of whom you meet before and who you can talk to and even relate to some degree. You get to know these guys during the game before having to fight them. You know your antagonists. In DX:HR you never learn anything more than small snippets of information of the three cyborgs. You barely even learn their names. There’s some small hints that two of them liked each other but that’s it. No reason for us to care.

I got the same feeling with the main bad guys in the games. In DX1 you had a good well fleshed out story about the conflicting conspiracies and you were brought in on all that went on before the end. In HR you don’t even know who you’re fighting against until at very late stages of the game. Even then they don’t do much more than clumsy hints at the conspiracies. The game is a bit confused at who we’re supposed to be fighting against. And while that is probably intentional I found it detracts from the story. Any DX1 fan can probably puzzle out more from the emails and other references but I didn’t find it anywhere near as compelling as it was in DX1.

Ashpolt
20th May 2014, 20:52
All good points, especially the guy talking about the giant sandbox levels in DX 1. The hubs in HR were alright but they felt too small and restricted. I want the complexity of Hell's Kitchen from the first game: There was the obvious street level area, the little smuggler hideout, the entire MJ12 base underground, the 'Ton Hotel, the clinic, the rooftops and warehouse area, and all the secrets in between. I literally spent 5 hours in that area finding everything and reading all the books/newspapers.

OK, everybody strap yourselves in and hold on to your butts, because I'm about to do something unthinkable: say DXHR does something better than DX1. *deep breath*

When was the last time you played DX1? Because Hell's Kitchen isn't actually all that big. I certainly wouldn't say it's bigger than HR's Detroit. Yes, it's got all of those areas you mentioned, but most of them are separate load zones. If we're allowed to count separate load zones accessed from the hub, then Detroit contains (purely off the top of my head):

-Sarif HQ
-The police station
-Limb clinic
-The auditorium (or whatever it was called)
-Adam's apartment block
-Another apartment block with more accessible rooms than the 'Ton
-The train station
-The gas station
-The whole gang area
-....and probably a couple of other places I've forgotten.

There are plenty of things to complain about with DXHR (many of which you captured quite accurately in the rest of your post) but the size / density of the hub areas isn't one of them. They at least matched those in DX1, if not surpassing them.

...I feel dirty now. Time to have a shower.

AdrianShephard
21st May 2014, 00:23
OK, everybody strap yourselves in and hold on to your butts, because I'm about to do something unthinkable: say DXHR does something better than DX1. *deep breath*

When was the last time you played DX1? Because Hell's Kitchen isn't actually all that big. I certainly wouldn't say it's bigger than HR's Detroit. Yes, it's got all of those areas you mentioned, but most of them are separate load zones. If we're allowed to count separate load zones accessed from the hub, then Detroit contains (purely off the top of my head):

-Sarif HQ
-The police station
-Limb clinic
-The auditorium (or whatever it was called)
-Adam's apartment block
-Another apartment block with more accessible rooms than the 'Ton
-The train station
-The gas station
-The whole gang area
-....and probably a couple of other places I've forgotten.

There are plenty of things to complain about with DXHR (many of which you captured quite accurately in the rest of your post) but the size / density of the hub areas isn't one of them. They at least matched those in DX1, if not surpassing them.

...I feel dirty now. Time to have a shower.

Notice I said complexity and not size of Hell's Kitchen; I suppose that I failed at getting across the "restricted" aspect of the hubs in HR. Even though you have all that space, I feel like EM put it in for the sake of making the game bigger. To me at least, there is more "useful" space (i.e. secret areas and places that drive the story forward) in DX 1 than in HR. But I suppose that leads into writing again...

68_pie
21st May 2014, 01:45
Hell's Kitchen felt like a large cohesive area. Detroit felt like small areas strung together inorganically (Hi, IW!).

AdrianShephard
21st May 2014, 14:24
Hell's Kitchen felt like a large cohesive area. Detroit felt like small areas strung together inorganically (Hi, IW!).

Exactly.

CyberP
21st May 2014, 15:35
I, like many others here, would appreciate if we got XP for completing objectives. I am, however, OK with an extra bonus for not setting off any alarms.


Good post overall. This bold snippet here is biased though, because you like challenging yourself to not set off alarms. It should be exploration & objectives-based xp rewards only. Anything else is lesser design: encourages farming, is counter simulational & punishes playstyles.

"Damn, I better stop him from pressing that alarm or I may be screwed!" becomes "Damn, I better stop him from pressing that alarm or I'll lose XP!"

neoWilks
21st May 2014, 15:53
Good post overall. This bold snippet here is biased though, because you like challenging yourself to not set off alarms. It should be exploration & objectives-based xp rewards only. Anything else is lesser design: encourages farming, is counter simulational & punishes playstyles.

"Damn, it better stop him from pressing that alarm or I may be screwed!" becomes "Damn, I better stop him from pressing that alarm or I'll lose XP!"
We've talked about this before. How do the bolded qualities not apply equally to exploration-based experience rewards?

CyberP
21st May 2014, 15:54
We've talked about this before. How do the bolded qualities not apply equally to exploration-based experience rewards?

Because exploration in the original Deus Ex is mandatory for the most part. No objective markers, not even solid directions given in some instances. Exploration is how everybody plays Deus Ex, just like objectives. On most levels it's not an option to go straight to the objective unless you know the map layout from previous playthroughs.

Rewarding XP for actions encourages the player to do said actions. The only thing that should be encouraged by using XP in DX is exploration and objectives (including secondary objectives, both of which ties to exploration anyway)

Sure you don't have to reward XP for exploration, the game would better simulate real life that way too without the xp pop ups, but from a gameplay standpoint xp rewards for exploration are very good because firstly rewarding the player for finding cool stuff is, well, rewarding. Secondly, if the reward is not XP, what would it be? Even MORE ammo? Weapon mods? Health? Nothing? The rewards help fill out secret areas, make them worth finding without breaking balance of other types of resources. Lastly, encouraging the player to explore is good because it's pretty much mandatory, as said.

The original devs had most of it all figured out perfectly :)

neoWilks
21st May 2014, 16:36
Because exploration in the original Deus Ex is mandatory for the most part. No objective markers, not even solid directions given in some instances. Exploration is how everybody plays Deus Ex, just like objectives. On most levels it's not an option to go straight to the objective unless you know the map layout from previous playthroughs.

Rewarding XP for actions encourages the player to do said actions. The only thing that should be encouraged by using XP in DX is exploration and objectives (including secondary objectives, both of which ties to exploration anyway)

Sure you don't have to reward XP for exploration, the game would better simulate real life that way too without the xp pop ups, but from a gameplay standpoint xp rewards for exploration are very good because firstly rewarding the player for finding cool stuff is, well, rewarding. Secondly, if the reward is not XP, what would it be? Even MORE ammo? Weapon mods? Health? Nothing?

The original devs had most of it all figured out perfectly :)
If exploration is mandatory, what purpose does a reward serve? It would seem redundant. Why not simply base experience rewards on the completion of primary objectives?

Yes, rewarding experience does encourage players to do whatever it is that gives them that experience. But you're just repeating yourself here. Why is exploration important enough that it should be rewarded over hacking---that effectively being exploration, just of the informational variety---or combat?

Experience rewards for exploration is good because finding cool stuff is rewarding? Again, this seems redundant. If the player is already benefiting from exploration because they found something cool, then why should there be additional experience rewards on top of that? Take the Liberty Island in the original game: why reward the player for accessing the storage room by the shed at UNATCO headquarters? It's not especially challenging, it's not related to any core goals, and the player is already receiving an equipment reward for breaking in.

Rewards for exploration should be based on the actual benefits that exploration would provide. For instance, finding a way to the top of any given structure can provide a better vantage point for scouting the surrounding area, or for picking off enemies from a distance. Secret or alternative entrances can put you in a better strategic position whether you intend to engage or avoid any hostiles inside. Busting into a weapons locker or security room would provide additional ammunition, weapons, and access to security systems. Generally speaking, I think really good rewards should not find themselves located in obscure, irregular locations unless there's a really good explanation. If you start throwing augmentation canisters into random sewers or dumpsters you're encouraging players to forage through every little nook and cranny just as if they were being reward experience.

CyberP
21st May 2014, 16:51
If exploration is mandatory, what purpose does a reward serve? It would seem redundant. Why not simply base experience rewards on the completion of primary objectives?

Primary objectives are mandatory, so the rewards are redundant too?

I meant the act of exploration is mandatory. Finding the most secret of secrets is not, but finding them should be encouraged anyway plus it serves as a good reward in place of yet more physical rewards (ammo etc).


If the player is already benefiting from exploration because they found something cool, then why should there be additional experience rewards on top of that?

Because sometimes the only reward is XP. For example the top of the crane on the superfreighter. Sometimes the cool thing is the XP bonus and nothing else.
And again, it is a reward that is not more health and ammo etc. If it was more health on top of the crane, and all the other locations, then that would mess with game balance. The game has so many secrets and XP rewards help fill those secrets.


Take the Liberty Island in the original game: why reward the player for accessing the storage room by the shed at UNATCO headquarters? It's not especially challenging, it's not related to any core goals, and the player is already receiving an equipment reward for breaking in.

Indeed, but it's only a medkit if I remember correctly, maybe some darts too. There are some instances where a bonus is perhaps not neccessary, and this
maybe one, but in an overall sense they are necessary really. See my reasons.


Rewards for exploration should be based on the actual benefits that exploration would provide. For instance, finding a way to the top of any given structure can provide a better vantage point for scouting the surrounding area, or for picking off enemies from a distance. Secret or alternative entrances can put you in a better strategic position whether you intend to engage or avoid any hostiles inside. Busting into a weapons locker or security room would provide additional ammunition, weapons, and access to security systems.

But what is your reason for not rewarding XP also? Especially given my reasons above for why there should be XP rewards for it.
Exploration shouldn't be encouraged was your argument last time because it's counter simulational - an agent wouldn't mess around exploring and would focus on the task at hand.

My response: Deus Ex is a perfect mix of excellent gameplay and simulation. Not too realistic to be boring, not too 'gamey' to be unbelievable. Looking Glass are still the best for precisely this; such strong sim design combined with excellent, deep gameplay. Design genius. I'm still waiting for a modern masterpiece, because Dishonored and Bioshock don't cut it. The new Fallouts (especially New Vegas) are more spiritual sequel than anything else by the classic devs themselves.


Generally speaking, I think really good rewards should not find themselves located in obscure, irregular locations unless there's a really good explanation. If you start throwing augmentation canisters into random sewers or dumpsters you're encouraging players to forage through every little nook and cranny just as if they were being reward experience.

Indeed, augmentation cannisters and other secrets usually do have some story/logical reason behind them, such as the dead scientist in the collapsed tunnel in HK.
XP rewards are never found in dumpsters etc, only in points of interest and secret areas.
Yes they are counter simulational, but because of their impact on the gameplay they should take precedence I believe.
There are many instances in DX's design where gameplay takes precedence over simulation design, and they are all worth it (skill system itself for example.)

CyberP
21st May 2014, 21:37
Oh, one more thing I will intentionally double post for because it's been a while since the last post so you wouldn't see the edit: xp rewards for exploration are a universal reward for playstyles, beneficial to both non-lethal and lethal players.
Take this example: if the rewards for a secret are prod ammo, an xp bonus and a baton, the XP bonus is the only thing worthy here to a lethal player (unless you are a lethal player who uses a prod as his melee because why not).
No matter what type of playstyle you go for xp rewards are useful to you.

Ignore the unnecessary bold I just felt like doing it for no particular reason. =/

AdrianShephard
22nd May 2014, 02:48
Good post overall. This bold snippet here is biased though, because you like challenging yourself to not set off alarms. It should be exploration & objectives-based xp rewards only. Anything else is lesser design: encourages farming, is counter simulational & punishes playstyles.

"Damn, I better stop him from pressing that alarm or I may be screwed!" becomes "Damn, I better stop him from pressing that alarm or I'll lose XP!"

You're right, it is biased (but notice I said "bonus", not XP rewards). But I think the player should get some kind of reward for accomplishing an objective silently or not setting off any alarms (or doing anything that requires a fair amount of effort). This reward doesn't have to be an XP reward; it can be an extra piece of dialogue or some form of acknowledgement.

The best example I can think off is in the first visit to Battery Park when JC is tasked with finding the ambrosia shipment. There are 2 ways to get into Castle Clinton: the loud and violent way which is through the front doors, or the sneaky way which is through the secret tunnel behind the vending machine. If you take the minimum force approach and go through the secret passage, JC and Sam Carter (the quartermaster at UNATCO) will have a totally different conversation upon JC's return -- with JC being more critical of UNATCO -- and Carter will reward the player with an extra clip. However, if you shoot everyone in Castle Clinton, JC will comment on how great it feels to see action and Carter scolds him, withholding the extra clip.

I thought the extra dialogue was awesome and wish to see something like this implemented in DX 4. In this case, the reward was more back story of a character (Sam Carter). This type of "reward" doesn't punish anyone's play style (because even if you go lethal, you will still learn that Carter doesn't like unnecessary violence) while also rewarding the non-lethal/quieter players.

(Also a famous example of extra dialogue is JC chuckling if he kills all of the Rooks and then talks to El Rey)

If anyone's interested, I've copied and pasted the two conversations with Sam Carter:

Lethal/loud JC:



SAM CARTER
Agent Denton. Marvelous. In addition to an accuracy weapon modification, I've
got some 7.62 mm rounds and a couple of multitools.

JC DENTON
Mr. Carter, I can't tell you how great it is to be a part of UNATCO. You should
have seen the fighting in Castle Clinton.

SAM CARTER
Yeah?

JC DENTON
I cleaned the place out.

SAM CARTER
Went on shooting, huh? I guess that's what this agency is known for.

JC DENTON
I never thought I'd see this much action in one mission.

SAM CARTER
In my day international peacekeepers were citizens first and soldiers second.
You can forget about that extra ammo. I'm only going to give you the multitools;
I think you should concentrate more on mission objectives and less on the enemy
body count.
You've got your equipment. Now move out.
Try to remember: people have rights. Don't just shoot everything that moves.
My unit killed a bunch of Afghans one time, but we weren't proud of it. In fact,
our liaison at the UN went to the funeral.


Nonlethal/silent JC:



SAM CARTER
Agent Denton. Marvelous. In addition to an accuracy weapon modification, I've
got some 7.62 mm rounds and a couple of multitools.

JC DENTON
Mr. Carter, can I ask you a question?

SAM CARTER
Certainly.

JC DENTON
I'm getting the impression that UNATCO is focused more on military operations than law enforcement.

SAM CARTER
The focus has shifted lately. I agree.

JC DENTON
The only way Anna would have been satisfied is if I'd execute every terrorist in Castle Clinton. The standing order seems to be "shoot to kill."

SAM CARTER
Direct intervention is always part of the game. In my day we were just more civilized about it.

JC DENTON
Civilized. That's the word. I guess I was expecting a little more class from the world's anti-terrorist organization.

SAM CARTER
We just have to strike a balance. Why don't I through in an extra clip with those multitools. I trust you will be able to judge when one or the other is appropriate for achieving mission objectives.

CyberP
22nd May 2014, 03:08
^Yes, I agree dialogue as the "reward" is fine. Something as vital as xp though should not. The equipment reward (the extra ammo) is the only equipment reward for being non-lethal in the game ever if I am not mistaken and there is no way of anticipating it except playing the game through once already so it's fine also.
XP rewards for no alarms would be a permanent rule the player would learn quickly and it would heavily encourage the act.

I guess a secondary objective on one mission for no alarms (tied to the plot of course) as a one off would be good. Reward: small Op bonus (200 credits) and some differing dialogue.
Again empowering rewards for no alarms would only be a problem when it's a permanent consistent rule because that results in constant playstyle bias/encouragement in a game about freedom.

EM, good one for DX4, the one-off secondary objective?

More unnecessary bold :)

Side note: It's interesting that Carter gives you lethal ammo for being a pacifist as seen in the dialogue above. If you are a strict pacifist (mostly everyone who does that playstyle) then that ammo is of no use to you, even on bots etc. Edit: Hmm it has use vs Anna and Gunther I suppose, which you have to kill, but there is 7.62mm ammo everywhere as it is. Still, very cool dialogue and I guess this is one instance where they wanted sim design/story to take precedence over gameplay (because ideally a non-lethal player would want/expect tranq darts etc for being pacifist and rightly so, but the devs just **** all over design conventions intelligently and that is what makes DX amazing).

AdrianShephard
22nd May 2014, 03:16
^Yes, I agree dialogue as the "reward" is fine (notice how Carter gives you lethal ammo for being a pacifist though? Lol, not sure what their thought process was behind that). Something as vital as xp though should not. The equipment reward (the lethal ammo) is the only equipment reward for being non-lethal in the game ever if I am not mistaken and there is no way of anticipating it except playing the game through once already so it's fine also.
XP rewards for no alarms would be a permanent rule the player would learn quickly and it would heavily encourage the act.

I guess a secondary objective on one mission for no alarms (tied to the plot of course) as a one off would be good. Reward: small Op bonus (200 credits) and some differing dialogue.
Again empowering rewards for no alarms would only be a problem when it's a permanent consistent rule because that results in constant playstyle bias in a game about freedom.

EM, good one for DX4?

More bold :)

You're absolutely right. As I've said before, my biggest gripe with HR (after the writing, of course) is being "forced" to play the game like Splinter Cell.

CyberP
22nd May 2014, 03:40
You're absolutely right. As I've said before, my biggest gripe with HR (after the writing, of course) is being "forced" to play the game like Splinter Cell.

Encouraged :)

I've played DX:HR as stealth once. Never again. It's mechanically borked (regenerating cloak that hides you from all threats except proxy mines most notably). Plus you can still get a good 70-80% of the augs as combat anyway so I actually like that combat gives less xp, but this too is bias/making most of the situation handed to me, and of course there should be no xp at all for either.

HR's combat holds it's own rather well but naturally I am not a fan of some noob design decisions. There are some positives to regen health and third person cover but the negatives outweigh the positives, in my opinion (unless your primary objective from a design standpoint is real world money because the general consensus is ~80% of gamers don't want to use their head so much, but I believe that argument is flawed).

Writing? Hmm, this is where my opinion loses weight, but I have played DX (and many games with great writing), and do read often (though not so much novels) so still some weight:


What irked me the most about HR though (and I know this is going a bit off the thread topic) is the writing. I bet others don't share this opinion but I don't really find the whole "to augment or not to augment" business that interesting, or at least EM didn't make me that interested

In my opinion the subject was interesting enough, it was just way overdone. DX discussed a wide variety of relatable and unrelatable topics but HR not so much. DX also had plenty hilarious comic relief characters, while HR only had a couple, but that doesn't really count when attempting to objectively judge the writing/is another case of bias :). I cannot speak for ALL of HR's documents/emails because the gameplay (and the world) didn't encourage me to read it all like DX1 through hidden messages and codes (HR gave you xp and passwords automatically for "reading", but don't worry we already discussed this in-depth some time ago...which is another thing that DX did so well and another thing that should be encouraged, though it doesn't relate to playstyles very much really anyway, only in a minor way).

DX's design man. It's all too good. Is why I take pride in believing I advanced it for the most part, and there is more to come!

AdrianShephard
30th May 2014, 20:36
I have some ideas for DX 4 that may or may not have been brought up before:

-Return of the old health system where damage is localized to a specific portion of the body. This also means no more regenerating health (unless it's an aug -- though not as OP as DX 1)

-No more aug upgrades that can be obtained after achieving a quota of XP. This encourages farming/power playing. Instead, XP should be used for a skill tree that could be a more fleshed out version of the one in DX 1. Things like hacking proficiency do not belong in the augs list like in HR. I think it would be better if you had to install the ability to hack with a aug canister/praxis kit and then all subsequent upgrades (such as fortify, etc.) are dealt with in the skills page. On a separate note, I enjoyed how in DX 1, it was an event when you found a Augmentation canister; I didn't feel such a sense of accomplishment in HR when I got a praxis point. Also, and I know this is a bit polarizing, I feel like Deus Ex should return to the Augmentation choices you had to make i.e. pick of you want silent run or fast run. That increases re-playability while also providing the player a feeling of actual choice.

-Return of lockpicks and multitools or comparible equipment. Too much emphasis is placed on hacking in HR; especially since you get more XP by hacking a door than inputting a key code. Hacking should be reserved to security terminals and computers -- not just every door you encounter. Perhaps the ability to hack everything could be the final skill in the hacking portion of the skill tree.

-Return of melee weapons. I'm pretty sure this is on everyone's list. I have no idea why EM took this away in HR.

-No mini-map on HUD. This is entirely personal but I don't see the point of having an aug that lets you see through walls when you have a map that shows everything. Also, the mini-map, for me at least, kills exploration.

-More "active" augs. I know the consoles are restricting the amount of buttons EM can use but I would like to see more that just 4 active augs in HR. Creative augs are welcome as well (I loved the Agressive Defense System from DX 1).

-Better inventory system. I'm a fan of the "Tetris" style inventory but I hate how HR makes you use up your space for ammo. Things should also stack much better.

-Return of ammo types. Again, I don't know why EM took this away. This feature isn't the most important but it is nice to have.

-Return of the big open maps. The hub areas, especially Hengsha, didn't feel open because they were mostly just a few large areas connected by small corridors.

-No more optimal paths to completing a mission. This has been discussed through and through in this thread; what hasn't, however, is the "silver tongue" bonus. This massive XP bonus is to large to miss out on so I constantly restarted whenever I didn't get it.

-More character interaction with your handler/tech assistance. I liked how Alex Jacobsen always gave you information or interacted with you (especially when you kill Ahent Navarre in the Lebedev Airfield). I think EM made a mistake by putting a douche character (i.e. Pritchard) in such a vital supporting position; I also disliked the banter between them during a mission -- a silent character taking in information over the infolink is better than one that responds IMO.

-Better atmosphere. I didn't find reading every pocket secretary/email in HR worth my while because the material didn't support the atmosphere (or lack thereof) in the game. EM needs to show the player what's at stake.

-No more useless cutscenes...especially if they are at crap resolution.

-Improve cover/lean mechanic. I realize that EM is most certainly going to bring back the cover system (which I despise BTW) but I want to see a lean function for the players that don't want to use the sticky cover (Crysis has a cool lean mechanic)

-More Easter eggs/original characters with their respective voice actors. Bob Page and his 2 lines of dialogue was pointless.

-BETTER SOUNDTRACK!! I can't explain enough how much I LOVE the music of DX 1...it's the most memorable thing about the game. As much as I love Michael McCann, he doesn't have the talent that Alexander Brandon possesses. EM needs to hire Alexander Brandon to make those techno/orchestral mixes that are sooo good!

I may think of more.

CyberP
30th May 2014, 23:03
Nailed it. Though there is plenty more one can add of course :)
I must address a few though:



-No mini-map on HUD. This is entirely personal but I don't see the point of having an aug that lets you see through walls when you have a map that shows everything. Also, the mini-map, for me at least, kills exploration.

It would be OK as an aug though, one which doesn't start off very useful.

Default: No radar.
Lvl1: Shows enemies, bots and cameras as blips.
lvl2: Shows them as triangles indicating the direction they are facing.
lvl3: Shows thier cone of vision and range.


-More "active" augs. I know the consoles are restricting the amount of buttons EM can use but I would like to see more that just 4 active augs in HR. Creative augs are welcome as well (I loved the Agressive Defense System from DX 1).


I posted a solution for consoles before.

Dpad up: activate/deactivate current aug.
left: previous aug.
right: next aug.
down: deactivate all augs.

This would be less accessible and fluid in action, but allow more active augs. It's quite a problem really, but it is the only significant restriction on design imposed by consoles really. That said, active augs in DX1 PC were a pain in the ass also, as the F keys were not re-bindable and to activate the far away ones (F7-12) you had to take your hand completely off of WASD, so this perhaps doesn't have to be considered a problem, unless you really value plenty active augs (which would be understandable).

Also, if EM go for choice and consequence in the aug system next time around, there could be 8 active augs in total, but since you can only choose 1 of 2 from each slot, you can only have 4 active augs in one playthrough, but there is 8 to choose from. Or however many they want, but you can only have 4 in a playthrough. Good for choice and consequence.

Other things such as toggle ammo type can be done via the radial menu and grid inventory on consoles, or by holding reload rather than tapping it. leaning? Replace third person cover with it.

This wouldn't be a problem if the console manufacturers added more buttons to the pads, they haven't added any new ones for three generations now so we are stuck with the same level of gameplay depth as always (DX depth being the deepest consoles can handle, but that is still damn deep of course).


EM did well having DX's core gameplay on consoles though. Can even enter user names and passwords with the virtual keyboard overlay...not that you need to because the game is a hackfest. There is still some control optimizations they can do to cram more gameplay depth in, but I doubt they will do it unfortunately.


-Better inventory system. I'm a fan of the "Tetris" style inventory but I hate how HR makes you use up your space for ammo. Things should also stack much better.


Why are you against ammo stacking in the inventory? You're not the only one I've seen complain about it. I personally like it, of course some stacking values could be changed for the better, I just wish they'd have more items come into play with the inventory system, something like System Shock 2's numbers (plenty of object types, some even useless but I like that for multiple reasons).

neoWilks
30th May 2014, 23:13
Primary objectives are mandatory, so the rewards are redundant too?

I meant the act of exploration is mandatory. Finding the most secret of secrets is not, but finding them should be encouraged anyway plus it serves as a good reward in place of yet more physical rewards (ammo etc).

Because the games have character progression, and therefore some sort of experience system needs to exist. The most sensible time to reward experience is completion of core objectives. Core objectives are mandatory, everything else isn't. So by limiting experience rewards to that, you ensure that one character isn't worse off than another just because they didn't try climbing to the top of an office building for no reason or hacked every door/computer in sight.

I'm going to avoid talking about specific instances now, because it's just going to end in huge lists of quote sniping. Instead I'll focus on this part:


But what is your reason for not rewarding XP also? Especially given my reasons above for why there should be XP rewards for it.
You're coming at this from the perspective that a game should be designed such that it encourages certain player behavior. I'm coming at this from the opposite perspective. A game should try to encourage players as little as possible. By that I mean, the game should simply provide the world. Players should then encourage themselves based on how interested they are in that world.

Do I care if somebody plays the original Deus Ex as a run-and-gun shooter, never pausing for a second to explore side rooms or vents or whatever? Not at all. That's their prerogative. They might be playing that way because they are simply used to linear first person shooters. Or maybe they feel that's how their character would actually behave in that situation. But they shouldn't suffer a penalty to character progression simply because they've decided that their primary objective is more important than exploration.

What's important is a choice that is up to the player. By encouraging one type of behavior over another (whatever that behavior may be) you're effectively compromising player agency by appealing to human psychology. You put a cookie in front of someone, they're going to want to take a bite.

CyberP
30th May 2014, 23:33
Because the games have character progression, and therefore some sort of experience system needs to exist. The most sensible time to reward experience is completion of core objectives. Core objectives are mandatory, everything else isn't. So by limiting experience rewards to that, you ensure that one character isn't worse off than another just because they didn't try climbing to the top of an office building for no reason or hacked every door/computer in sight.

The act of exploration is mandatory in DX1. Example:

Map: DuClare Chateau.
Objective: hunt for clues

That's it. Aside from the hints given in Nicolette's dialogue, exploration is absolutely mandatory here, it is in all maps unless the objective is clear in sight (Liberty Statue for example, but even then you have to find a way in). Nicolette's dialogue in the chateau map is only trigged via exploration also.


You're coming at this from the perspective that a game should be designed such that it encourages certain player behavior.

My argument of xp rewards as a means to encourage exploration was minor. the primary reason I believe they should exist is to fill out secret areas for the reasons listed:

1. Universal reward regardless of playstyle for finding secrets.
2a Balancing. There are so many secret areas in DX that having them all yield health and ammo etc would just be ridiculous.
2b. allowing all those secrets to exist in the first place while maintaining balance, unless again you don't mind them all having plenty physical rewards only, or alternatively some of them being empty.

Encouraging exploration is less important I think, but still a positive affect of the rewards as the act of exploration is mandatory in DX1.


I'm coming at this from the opposite perspective. A game should try to encourage players as little as possible.
By that I mean, the game should simply provide the world. Players should then encourage themselves based on how interested they are in that world. .

I agree, but like I said I value their impact on secret areas/the gameplay. I think they should be the one exception, just like they were in DX1.


What's important is a choice that is up to the player. By encouraging one type of behavior over another (whatever that behavior may be) you're effectively compromising player agency by appealing to human psychology. You put a cookie in front of someone, they're going to want to take a bite.

Indeed. But again, exploration should be an exception. The act of exploration is mandatory in DX1, and secrets always yield rewards anyway, so there is no harm in the rewards occasionally being XP also.

neoWilks
31st May 2014, 01:00
The act of exploration is mandatory in DX1. Example:

Map: DuClare Chateau.
Objective: hunt for clues

That's it. Aside from the hints given in Nicolette's dialogue, exploration is absolutely mandatory here, it is in all maps unless the objective is clear in sight (Liberty Statue for example, but even then you have to find a way in). Nicolette's dialogue in the chateau map is only trigged via exploration also.

We're talking specifically about exploration for it's own sake. Not core objectives that require exploration for completion. I've already said rewarding experience for accomplishing objectives is fine. Needing to track down clues that are scattered about a map is not the same as solving a jumping puzzle or finding a secret door that gives you access to an area not otherwise normally accessible.


My argument of xp rewards as a means to encourage exploration was minor. the primary reason I believe they should exist is to fill out secret areas for the reasons listed:

1. Universal reward regardless of playstyle for finding secrets.
2a Balancing. There are so many secret areas in DX that having them all yield health and ammo etc would just be ridiculous.
2b. allowing all those secrets to exist in the first place while maintaining balance, unless again you don't mind them all having plenty physical rewards only, or alternatively some of them being empty.

1. Experience rewards for completing mission objectives already reward players regardless of playstyle. That and certain areas can only be explored if a player has invested in certain skills/augmentations. Exploration, at least in certain instances, does favor some playstyles over others. I suppose you could tally them up and make sure that there's an equal number of explorable locations for every skill/augmentation combination, but that seems like it'd be difficult. It also risks omitting certain areas that could (or should) be included simply because it would upset that balance.

2. Like I said before, rewards should make sense in the given context. Sometimes that will mean no reward. Other times that reward might be access to a less guarded entrance. Or a better vantage point for sniping. Or a bit of information or lore material. Or just a neat looking view. Experience doesn't need to enter the equation because players should be able to weigh how much these rewards matter on their own. The game doesn't need to dangle experience rewards in front of them to complicate that decision.


Indeed. But again, exploration should be an exception. The act of exploration is mandatory in DX1, and secrets always yield rewards anyway, so there is no harm in the rewards occasionally being XP also.
I don't see any difference between this and experience for hacking or ghosting a level. Or to flip it around, if players were rewarded for killing as many targets as possible instead of rendering them unconscious. You're deciding arbitrarily, that certain player behaviors are better than others. And you're slapping a gamey reward system on top of that to encourage those behaviors over others.

CyberP
31st May 2014, 01:23
Exploration, at least in certain instances, does favor some playstyles over others.

True, but there are always some kind of rewards for exploration, XP or not. It is encouraged in many, many ways.


You're deciding arbitrarily, that certain player behaviors are better than others.

Yes. Exploration is the true way to play Deus Ex, and everybody does it (in DX1 at least, since it is to some degree mandatory). Those who look harder than the majority to find the most secret of secrets should be rewarded, I see no problem with that reward being xp on occasion. Either way there is going to be a reward of some sort.

The only problem I have with XP rewards for exploration is they are counter simulational, but then I point back to their impact on the gameplay listed in the previous post which I believe to be more important. LGS (& IS) devs knew when to drop simulation in favor of gameplay and when not to. They must have had a good debates of their own on this. Of course the overall design is not perfect, definitely room for improvement, but I think the XP reward methods Ion Storm nailed.

OK, lets look for an alternative: lets say you make a mod for DX1 and take away the XP rewards for exploration, what would you then do? Nothing? Because as I said, xp rewards help fill secret areas with satisfactory rewards, and no matter whether you are non-lethal, lethal stealth or a shooter you will be rewarded by the XP reward. There are plenty other things that are useful to all player types also, such as credits, but in my time modding the game and rebalancing resources and the skill system etc I found those XP rewards to play a important in the systems of the game, and are part of it's exceptional depth. A lot of secrets rely on the xp rewards to be worth the effort. Sure you could get rid of them, and then attempt to rebalance everything to compensate, but I'm not sure if the result will be....Secrets will not yield satisfactory rewards unless you did a damn fine job of rebalancing.

I reason with your disliking for them to some degree...maybe I am blinded by bias also as I love exploration, but I think they are important. I think they should be the one exception and now I've exhausted all of my points. I hope I presented them well.

AdrianShephard
31st May 2014, 03:40
I posted a solution for consoles before.

Dpad up: activate/deactivate current aug.
left: previous aug.
right: next aug.
down: deactivate all augs.

That's a genius idea. I really hope EM takes note!



That said, active augs in DX1 PC were a pain in the ass also, as the F keys were not re-bindable and to activate the far away ones (F7-12) you had to take your hand completely off of WASD


Actually you can re-bind the F keys. Just go to the page where you can re-bind all of the other controls and when you see the F key you want (F7 for example), double click the corresponding space and choose the key you want. I usually make the running aug my Q key so I can get to it in a flash. The light aug is usually X for me (since F12 is incredibly far away) and ballistic protection (before I get the Regeneration aug) is usually F. The augs list on the HUD still gives the corresponding F key however.



Also, if EM go for choice and consequence in the aug system next time around, there could be 8 active augs in total, but since you can only choose 1 of 2 from each slot, you can only have 4 active augs in one playthrough, but there is 8 to choose from. Or however many they want, but you can only have 4 in a playthrough. Good for choice and consequence.


The more augs the better. I believe there were 9 augs in DX 1 which was a good number.



leaning? Replace third person cover with it.


They won't replace the 3rd person cover...you have to remember this is 2014 and the vast majority of gamers are used to such a mechanic. If I remember correctly, Crysis deals with cover by initiating an option to lean if you aim down sight and are staring at an appropriate obstacle. What I mean is that in DX 4, to lean left from a corner, you could aim down sight at the wall and move the right stick (assuming you're using a controller) left. This isn't hard to do and would appease the more traditional gamers.



I just wish they'd have more items come into play with the inventory system, something like System Shock 2's numbers (plenty of object types, some even useless but I like that for multiple reasons).

I dislike the ammo stacking precisely because I'm assuming there will be more useful items in DX 4 and I don't want to miss out because I decided that I want a Terminator build. If ammo infinitely stacked upon itself after taking up the appropriate amount of space, I would be fine with that.

AdrianShephard
31st May 2014, 03:55
1. Experience rewards for completing mission objectives already reward players regardless of playstyle. That and certain areas can only be explored if a player has invested in certain skills/augmentations. Exploration, at least in certain instances, does favor some playstyles over others. I suppose you could tally them up and make sure that there's an equal number of explorable locations for every skill/augmentation combination, but that seems like it'd be difficult. It also risks omitting certain areas that could (or should) be included simply because it would upset that balance.

I don't remember DX 1 ever penalizing you for a specific build by not granting you access to specific area/secrets. There ALWAYS was a way around an obstacle whether it was the appropriate augmentations or items such as Hazmat suits and re-breathers. The only time DX 1 favored a particular play style for exploration is if someone is an explosives expert that can blow open most doors, negating the need for lock-picks. Then, to those that are not explosive-oriented and use lock-picks liberally, secrets would be harder to find because you can't open every door. DX 4 could address the player early on about this to prepare the player though (I love how DX 1 teaches you the fundamentals without actually breaking the 4th wall)... If it were up to me, I would keep the DX 1 way of distributing skill points.



I don't see any difference between this and experience for hacking or ghosting a level. Or to flip it around, if players were rewarded for killing as many targets as possible instead of rendering them unconscious. You're deciding arbitrarily, that certain player behaviors are better than others. And you're slapping a gamey reward system on top of that to encourage those behaviors over others.

Hacking/ghosting/killing everyone in a level favors specific builds. Exploration doesn't.

CyberP
31st May 2014, 03:58
Actually you can re-bind the F keys. Just go to the page where you can re-bind all of the other controls and when you see the F key you want (F7 for example), double click the corresponding space and choose the key you want. I usually make the running aug my Q key so I can get to it in a flash. The light aug is usually X for me (since F12 is incredibly far away) and ballistic protection (before I get the Regeneration aug) is usually F. The augs list on the HUD still gives the corresponding F key however.

:o


They won't replace the 3rd person cover...you have to remember this is 2014 and the vast majority of gamers are used to such a mechanic. If I remember correctly, Crysis deals with cover by initiating an option to lean if you aim down sight and are staring at an appropriate obstacle. What I mean is that in DX 4, to lean left from a corner, you could aim down sight at the wall and move the right stick (assuming you're using a controller) left. This isn't hard to do and would appease the more traditional gamers.

Eh, Deus Ex: HR is the only first person game I've played with third person sticky cover, and I've played plenty. It should have first person cover (leaning). Even contextual FP leaning is more desirable than the cheap all-seeing eye (third person cover).


I dislike the ammo stacking precisely because I'm assuming there will be more useful items in DX 4 and I don't want to miss out because I decided that I want a Terminator build. If ammo infinitely stacked upon itself after taking up the appropriate amount of space, I would be fine with that.

Well I'm sure they'll get the balancing right. I personally think they did an excellent job with the inventory system in DX:HR. My only problem is with the stacking of the fully automatic guns ammo, which were clearly imbalanced. Weapon mods were perhaps a little too big also, other than that it was solid.

AdrianShephard
31st May 2014, 04:02
Eh, Deus Ex: HR is the only first person game I've played with third person cover.


I've played a bunch including Brothers-in-Arms. There aren't that many mainstream ones I suppose.

CyberP
31st May 2014, 04:17
I don't remember DX 1 ever penalizing you for a specific build by not granting you access to specific area/secrets. There ALWAYS was a way around an obstacle whether it was the appropriate augmentations or items such as Hazmat suits and re-breathers. The only time DX 1 favored a particular play style for exploration is if someone is an explosives expert that can blow open most doors, negating the need for lock-picks. Then, to those that are not explosive-oriented and use lock-picks liberally, secrets would be harder to find because you can't open every door. DX 4 could address the player early on about this to prepare the player though (I love how DX 1 teaches you the fundamentals without actually breaking the 4th wall)... If it were up to me, I would keep the DX 1 way of distributing skill points.

Well yes, there was always a way. Usually by activating regen aug as it countered most problems with little consequence. There always being a way no matter the build defeated the point of 1/3 of the skills.

AdrianShephard
31st May 2014, 04:21
Well yes, there was always a way. Usually by activating regen aug as it countered most problems no problem.

The regen aug was a problem since it made the protective augs (aqualung, environmental resistance, etc.) obsolete. I wasn't really thinking about that...

CyberP
31st May 2014, 04:26
The regen aug was a problem since it made the protective augs (aqualung, environmental resistance, etc.) obsolete. I wasn't really thinking about that...

And a good number of skills were obsoleted. The rebreather was a problem too. It's all refined in my mod.

Dr_Bob
31st May 2014, 11:50
Okay, it's been a while since I've posted on here but I thought I'd add my thoughts alongside everyone else.

1) Immersion. I don't want the game to keep popping out to 3rd person whenever I climb a ladder or do whatever. Ideally, I'd like to remain in 1st-person the whole time (like in Dishonored). This aids in the immersion and makes for a better game for me.

2) Cutscenes. If you really need to have them, then please don't use shoddy low resolution pre-rendered videos. It's jarring and weird and I don't like it. The Thief reboot had the same thing and this doesn't give me high hopes for Deus Ex 4.

3) Bosses. Heh. Pretty much all I want is for the boss encounters to follow a similar design philosophy to the original Deus Ex. I want to be able to talk to the bosses before fighting them, maybe trying to talk them down or whatever. Or, maybe I could run away from the boss encounter? You know? Like in the original Deus Ex...

4) Exploration. Deus Ex: Human Revolution was sorely lacking in vertical exploration. I think this could be remedied by adding some kind of climbing/vaulting mechanic, like with Dishonored. Being able to climb onto rooftops and observing the scene below is awesome.

5) Stealth. Please don't make me use a 3rd-person cover system to stealth. In HR, if you left your cover spot but remained next to it, enemies would still spot you. Therefore, using the cover system was necessary to successfully stealth through a level. 1st person leaning would be cool. Either contextual or manual with the Q/E keys. I'd prefer the latter, but the former seems to be a pretty common feature these days.

6) XP Balance. The problem with HR's XP system was that it favoured stealthy players and hackers. Furthermore, stealth isn't that hard! Not only do you have a tranq rifle and a stun gun to incapacitate enemies, but you also have unblockable non-lethal takedowns that freeze the world around you.

7) Takedowns and Melee. If takedowns have to be in the game, please make them 1st-person. I get that you wanted to show off Adam's abilities by pulling the camera out, but it kills immersion especially when the world stops moving so that the takedown animation can play. I wasn't too keen on Deus Ex 1's melee system. It was clunky and awkward. But it would be cool to have some melee weapons to use, like batons or lead pipes.

8) Return to Improvisational Gameplay. Deus Ex 1 gave you a playground to tackle your objectives however you wanted. I felt that HR was a bit too artificial in how it handled these things. It was always obvious which route you intended to be the "stealthy" one. I just want things to feel more organic.

neoWilks
1st Jun 2014, 18:58
True, but there are always some kind of rewards for exploration, XP or not. It is encouraged in many, many ways.

Yes. Exploration is the true way to play Deus Ex, and everybody does it (in DX1 at least, since it is to some degree mandatory). Those who look harder than the majority to find the most secret of secrets should be rewarded, I see no problem with that reward being xp on occasion. Either way there is going to be a reward of some sort.
I still don't feel like you've justified the inclusion of experience rewards for exploration. There shouldn't be any reason to further incentivize exploration (or incentivize obsessive exploration) because exploration should already make sense within the context of the world and the things you are trying to do in that world. You say it should be rewarded because they otherwise wouldn't be worth the effort? To that I'd say the exploration itself needs to be more compelling. If the only reason you're doing something is for the material reward, then something is already wrong.

Moreover, you could say the exact same thing about hacking or combat (lethal or non-lethal). Sometimes cracking an electronic lock is significantly more difficult than finding an alternate entrance. Sometimes ghosting an area is significantly easier than going in guns blazing. Shouldn't there then be an experience reward for expending greater effort in accomplishing some feat? Otherwise, what incentive would there be to do things other than in the easiest way possible?

The problem, as I see it, is you're not okay with experience rewards for unlocking a door, but you are okay with rewarding that same experience when the player walks through that door. That's weird to me. It's such a minor and arbitrary distinction that I can't tell why one is justifiable and the other is obviously poor design.

I don't remember DX 1 ever penalizing you for a specific build by not granting you access to specific area/secrets.

That the strength or speed augmentation gives you access to otherwise inaccessible areas would be the most obvious. Aqualung/swimming can also influence how difficult water obstacles might be. Locked doors, either mechanical or electronic, will favor certain skill sets. Any build that doesn't focus on these things is going to have a more difficult time overcoming these obstacles. Once you introduce experience rewards to the equation it encourages players to choose these skills over others. Or favor certain behavior over others even when it's not required for a mission. Or even when it is contrary to how you'd believably behave in a certain situation.

AdrianShephard
1st Jun 2014, 20:42
That the strength or speed augmentation gives you access to otherwise inaccessible areas would be the most obvious. Aqualung/swimming can also influence how difficult water obstacles might be. Locked doors, either mechanical or electronic, will favor certain skill sets. Any build that doesn't focus on these things is going to have a more difficult time overcoming these obstacles. Once you introduce experience rewards to the equation it encourages players to choose these skills over others. Or favor certain behavior over others even when it's not required for a mission. Or even when it is contrary to how you'd believably behave in a certain situation.

From my nearly 25 playthroughs of Deus Ex, I've never found myself at a disadvantage when exploring by not choosing the Strength aug. I've always chosen the Combat Strength since Deus Ex lets you push the heavier barrels/boxes. The speed enhancement does help in some instances, but there is always an option if you didn't choose it. Yes, these augs will make your life easier, but there is a trade off -- and this trade off is what makes Deus Ex replayable. If the player really cared about exploration, then they would hold the appropriate items in their inventory to get around potential obstacles i.e. the rebreather if the player chose Environmental Resistance and the hazmat suit if the player chose Aqualung...that's why these items are in the game. If the player doesn't think ahead then they shouldnt be playing Deus Ex. Not enough multitools or lockpicks to get into a certain area? Tough luck...you had your warning in the tutorial. If EM is as smart as Ion Storm was, then they would put keys/codes in specific parts of the map/within conversations so that the less sharp players can still get the goodies. As long as the developers allow each secret area to be accessed by whatever build you have, then there should be no problem for the XP rewards. What I didn't like was how in HR, the weak walls in the sewers could only be seen if you had the particular aug...

CyberP
1st Jun 2014, 21:08
Rewards for exploration:

-Ammo
-Health/Bio Energy
-Credits
-Weapon mods
-Other tools of various sorts (armour, lockpicks, weapons and so on)
-Discovery of secondary objectives which have thier own rewards (and again, most primary objectives too as you need to do some exploration).
-Vantage points
-Codes from cubes etc, as well as lore. NPC dialogue. Information in general.
-Skill points

Deus Ex is centred around exploration, like most good games really.
Remove the skill point rewards from DX1, what is the consequential outcome from the player's perspective?

Positive:

-No immersion breaking XP pop-ups except when you complete objectives.
-No encouragement to explore with a "gamey" system.

Neutral/depends on your perspective:

-All players receive equal skill points in every playthrough (outside of secondary objectives).

Negative:

-Less rewards that help fill Deus Ex's maps, especially secrets. As a rough estimate I'd say there are ~200 skill point bonuses not directly tied to the objective.
-Takes away a reward that applies to all players no matter the playstyle.

Feel free to point out anything I may have missed, or any errors at all.

Even if you take away the XP nothing will change. Most players will still explore every corner of a map possible because of all the other rewards, and as you said exploring in itself is rewarding too (though actual rewards for it are absolutely vital).


Once you introduce experience rewards to the equation it encourages players to choose these skills over others. Or favor certain behavior over others even when it's not required for a mission. Or even when it is contrary to how you'd believably behave in a certain situation.

All rewards for exploration in general does this. When you use a lockpick on a door you are not thinking about how much xp is behind it, you are thinking of ALL the possible rewards behind it, whatever they may be, in addition to the excitement, the joy of exploring the unknown. at least that's how my brain works.


If the player really cared about exploration, then they would hold the appropriate items in their inventory to get around potential obstacles i.e. the rebreather if the player chose Environmental Resistance and the hazmat suit if the player chose Aqualung...that's why these items are in the game. If the player doesn't think ahead then they shouldnt be playing Deus Ex. Not enough multitools or lockpicks to get into a certain area? Tough luck...you had your warning in the tutorial. If EM is as smart as Ion Storm was, then they would put keys/codes in specific parts of the map/within conversations so that the less sharp players can still get the goodies. As long as the developers allow each secret area to be accessed by whatever build you have, then there should be no problem for the XP rewards. What I didn't like was how in HR, the weak walls in the sewers could only be seen if you had the particular aug...

Deus Ex had quite a huge imbalance in these systems. Rebreathers were a joke. They were a no-brainer "choice" and near obsoleted swimming skill and aqualung completely. Swimming was widely considered useless vanilla and rebreathers were a primary reason, regen aug too since it countered drowning damage (and pretty much every other type of damage including being set on fire).

Some skills were almost entirely dedicated to exploration (lockpicking, swimming), and if you offer other easier ways to explore with little consequence then those "choices" become no-brainers. There were many optimal ways to deal with things in DX.

Rebreather required 1 inventory block each. 1x1. this was it's only negative consequence. It didn't need upgrading via Environmental Training skill as it lasted a very long time untrained.
Swimming required 6000 or so skill points to master.
Aqualung required three all important aug upgrades as well as Bioelectricity to use, plus if you chose it you cannot have it's rival aug.

Yes swimming was a permanent modifier of both breath duration and swim speed, but rebreathers were common enough that swimming skill was just a waste of skill points.
There was a massive imbalance between Aqualung, rebreathers and swim skill, as you can see.
Then there was a great imbalance of other skills/tools/choices also, but meh. Already discussed all this before anyway and gone over it numerous times when rebalancing them myself.

The devs were wrong to make every single part of each map possible to access no matter your build since some skills/tools were entirely dedicated to exploration.

Jito463
2nd Jun 2014, 13:20
Say what you will about the swimming skill, I'm pretty sure I used it on all of my playthroughs (at the very least, the majority of them). I rarely used the rebreathers. I guess I'm the odd man out. I use the silent running aug, and put points into swimming, despite others telling me they're useless. Oh well, that's why choices are wonderful. It's also why I'm hesitant to use the latest version of CyberP's mod, as it modifies/removes some things I'm used to using.

CyberP
2nd Jun 2014, 15:25
Say what you will about the swimming skill, I'm pretty sure I used it on all of my playthroughs (at the very least, the majority of them). I rarely used the rebreathers. I guess I'm the odd man out. I use the silent running aug, and put points into swimming, despite others telling me they're useless. Oh well, that's why choices are wonderful. It's also why I'm hesitant to use the latest version of CyberP's mod, as it modifies/removes some things I'm used to using.

With Swim Skill/Rebreather/Aqualung the objectivity is in the numbers.

SIX thousand skill points
THREE aug upgrades
ONE inventory slot (rebreather) or ONE Regen Aug (regen aug counters everything including drowning damage).

^this is simplifying the argument, but with all the evidence rounded up it's not hard to see what's what.

And yes, I took swimming skill on occasion also years ago, but I realised that was dumb of me, Regen aug and rebreather did it all with next to no consequence.
It's no longer about freedom/choice and consequence when one choice is a bag of gold for free, and the other choice is that same bag but you have to trade your car for it.

You could even just drop an item temporarily, pick up and use the rebreather where necessary, then come back for your item.
Regen aug was the biggest joke of them all though.

Shralla
2nd Jun 2014, 17:50
I think I always just took the aqualung aug and never upgraded it. It functioned just long enough to get you through every swimming section that I found.

Swimming... Speaking of huge gameplay removals in Human Revolution.

WildcatPhoenix
2nd Jun 2014, 19:42
I think I always just took the aqualung aug and never upgraded it. It functioned just long enough to get you through every swimming section that I found.

Swimming... Speaking of huge gameplay removals in Human Revolution.

Microfibral Muscle and the swimming skill/aug are two examples where DX1 didn't fully realize the potential of its own system. This may not be the case, but it felt like they designed the skill system and aug combos before completing the map design. Personally, I never once came across an instance where Master level swimming or a maxed out Aqualung was even necessary. As for MM vs Combat Strength, the latter was simply 100x more useful (although I appreciate the changes CyberP made to these two augs in his GMDX mod, and I'd like to see future Deus Ex games explore this dimension of gameplay).

DX1 actually has a lot of redundant or borderline useless items and/or skills, but the most important aspect of the game which I found lacking in DXHR was the idea of a character "build," which was brought on by augs being hardwired once installed. You couldn't install both Regeneration and Environmental Protection. You had to make a choice. Of course, you could always balance out most of these choices through skills (ex: install Regen aug and then dump a lot of skill points into Environmental Training), but you couldn't install every single system.

The XP/Praxis tree needs some major revision in DX4, in my opinion. Quite frankly, I'd like to see something more akin to the original two-part system.

CyberP
2nd Jun 2014, 20:07
The XP/Praxis tree needs some major revision in DX4, in my opinion. Quite frankly, I'd like to see something more akin to the original two-part system.

A three-part system?

Also the augs in DX weren't entirely two-part. You could actually have both ballistic protection and emp shield, or both Regeneration and energy shield, but only for the torso and subdermal slots could you mix and match and it really wasn't worth it, better to install all augs as soon as you get them.

Try it next time though. don't install aqualung/environmental resistance, then you can install something else instead for torso later (Health Regen, Energy Shield, Power Recirculator, Synthetic Heart)...which doesn't really make sense but hey, choice and consequence is fun.

Hope I explained that with enough clarity.

AdrianShephard
2nd Jun 2014, 21:40
The devs were wrong to make every single part of each map possible to access no matter your build since some skills/tools were entirely dedicated to exploration.

I disagree with this. I only think the swimming skill is meant for pure exploration, everything else has its use outside of that. Lockpicks and multitools are valuable in-mission if you don't want to go in guns blazing; I'm not considering the stealth approach as exploration since its usually obvious which path to take. An example is the second mission in Battery Park: if the player happened to have a candy bar, then the little boy would tell you the code for the secret tunnel behind the vending machine. If you don't have one, you have to use a multitool (and, perhaps, a lockpick if I remember correctly -- don't quote me).

In the more open-world levels, sometimes the player completes a mission without fully exploring the area, bypassing the hidden keys/codes within the 'hub'. In fact, I remember when I first played Hell's Kitchen I immediately tried going to the warehouse and realized that I couldn't proceed because I didn't have enough lockpicks (especially the basement area). This is where the necessity of the lockpicking/multitool skills come into play. Deus Ex breaks down when the players have continually beaten the hell out of it and know the maps/secrets by heart; then the players know that wasting lockpicks/multitools/skills is pointless when easier avenues exist (namely Speed Enhancement to render vertical/horizontal obstacles obsolete and health regen to make any hazard safe). For the first few playthroughs, Deus Ex was a challenging trial and error experience.

Also, the nano-keys were incredibly hard to find due to their size/locations; I still find new ones to this day! No one ever said that the devs have to make every area easily accessible -- they shouldn't -- but I would be damn pissed if midway through the game I realized that I didn't make the "right" decision in my character build. This is where that other guy on this thread has a point -- exploration shouldn't favor specific builds. Ion Storm got this right except for the Aqualung/swimming fiasco where you pretty much got screwed if you invested in them. Other than that, every skill/aug has multiple purposes i.e. exploration, combat, etc.

I like how HR had a more evolved conversation system where you could actually screw up and an NPC wouldn't give you information (whether it's for mission or exploration purposes). Here, the people with the social augmentation have an easier time with the dialogue; however, if I screw up a conversation, reloading so I can try again kills immersion. If I knew that multiple pathways to a particular secret area existed, I wouldn't have to restart.

I hope that makes sense. I have a headache so I could be making no sense right now.

CyberP
2nd Jun 2014, 22:23
I disagree with this. I only think the swimming skill is meant for pure exploration, everything else has its use outside of that.

Hazmat and Environmental Resistence augs. These tools are almost exclusively for exploration, except for protection against the Grays of which there are only about 3 in the game not including the respawning ones on the final level. They were meant to protect against gas grenades too but the code was bugged.

Swimming skill, Rebreather, aqualung. Already been discussed. Whilst these too can be useful for stealth on the rare occasion (Catacombs tunnel underneath the bunker leading to the WiB for example) they are almost entirely dedicated to for exploration.

Everything else? No not strictly for exploration, but this right here is a lot of stuff almost exclusively dedicated to exploration. And whilst lockpick was very useful for stealth, it is still primarily for exploration. Multitools not so much but still on occasion.


For the first few playthroughs, Deus Ex was a challenging trial and error experience.
.

Yes. But it's unnecessary flaws still stand (especially regen aug) and it being a game built for replayability, well it would have been better off without those flaws, or having more things scale with difficulty level chosen. The latter I should have taken advantage of also to have my mod suitable for newbies/people without much experience. I did consider it but as it was a mod of a 14 y/o game I didn't care too much for catering to newbies, even though it would have been in an uncompromising way.

AdrianShephard
2nd Jun 2014, 22:56
Hazmat and Environmental Resistence augs. These tools are almost exclusively for exploration, except for protection against the Grays of which there are only about 3 in the game not including the respawning ones on the final level. They were meant to protect against gas grenades too but the code was bugged.

Swimming skill, Rebreather, aqualung. Already been discussed. Whilst these too can be useful for stealth on the rare occasion (Catacombs tunnel underneath the bunker leading to the WiB for example) they are almost entirely dedicated to for exploration.

Everything else? No not strictly for exploration, but this right here is a lot of stuff almost exclusively dedicated to exploration. And whilst lockpick was very useful for stealth, it is still primarily for exploration. Multitools not so much but still on occasion.

Environmental Resistance protects against tranq attacks as well which is quite useful. Like I said, swimming is the exception. I understand that lockpicks/multitools are used for exploration as well but my point is that you aren't wasting skill points by investing in the respective skills...they are incredibly useful in all facets of gameplay. And I'm pretty sure the average player uses more lockpicks/multitools in mission critical areas then just exploring (there aren't many keypads outside of where you're supposed to go).

CyberP
2nd Jun 2014, 23:48
Environmental Resistance protects against tranq attacks as well which is quite useful.

Oh yes. Xbow wielding enemies do become quite rare from HK onwards though.


Like I said, swimming is the exception. I understand that lockpicks/multitools are used for exploration as well but my point is that you aren't wasting skill points by investing in the respective skills...they are incredibly useful in all facets of gameplay. And I'm pretty sure the average player uses more lockpicks/multitools in mission critical areas then just exploring (there aren't many keypads outside of where you're supposed to go).

I disagree. Not on all points, but those skills and augs just had serious balancing issues. They are not all incredibly useful and their costs do not always justify the perks.
Again, regen aug especially destroyed a significant portion of the systems, near obsoleting a good number of augs and skills, especially the ones that are primarily or partially dedicated to exploration. Something had to be done.


And I'm pretty sure the average player uses more lockpicks/multitools in mission critical areas then just exploring (there aren't many keypads outside of where you're supposed to go).

Not always, no. But multitools I never claimed as being primarily for exploration. They cater to the stealth player primarily as they are for cameras, alarm units, turrets and control panels (usually to disable laser alarm triggers), and of course keypads. Shooters can get plenty use out of them too though naturally.
Lockpicks however are primarily for exploration. There is nothing else you can do with them except open things. Yes they are extra useful to a stealth player for alternate routes, but they are primarily for exploration.

So again, there are many augs, tools and skills either almost entirely dedicated to exploration, or partially, so it makes no sense the devs throwing around freebies such as rebreathers to allow those who didn't specialise in these systems to explore every nook and cranny.

"Choice and consequence? Nope, not this time. Here, have a freebie! hope you didn't waste any resources investing in near useless tools."

Outside the few flaws though the systems are solid for the most part of course.

Sponge
10th Jun 2014, 19:58
We're talking specifically about exploration for it's own sake. Not core objectives that require exploration for completion. I've already said rewarding experience for accomplishing objectives is fine. Needing to track down clues that are scattered about a map is not the same as solving a jumping puzzle or finding a secret door that gives you access to an area not otherwise normally accessible.

1. Experience rewards for completing mission objectives already reward players regardless of playstyle. That and certain areas can only be explored if a player has invested in certain skills/augmentations. Exploration, at least in certain instances, does favor some playstyles over others. I suppose you could tally them up and make sure that there's an equal number of explorable locations for every skill/augmentation combination, but that seems like it'd be difficult. It also risks omitting certain areas that could (or should) be included simply because it would upset that balance.

2. Like I said before, rewards should make sense in the given context. Sometimes that will mean no reward. Other times that reward might be access to a less guarded entrance. Or a better vantage point for sniping. Or a bit of information or lore material. Or just a neat looking view. Experience doesn't need to enter the equation because players should be able to weigh how much these rewards matter on their own. The game doesn't need to dangle experience rewards in front of them to complicate that decision.

I don't see any difference between this and experience for hacking or ghosting a level. Or to flip it around, if players were rewarded for killing as many targets as possible instead of rendering them unconscious. You're deciding arbitrarily, that certain player behaviors are better than others. And you're slapping a gamey reward system on top of that to encourage those behaviors over others.

I agree with Wilks on this. There's a number of exploration rewards in DX that were not XP or equipment: The helicopter terminal in HK had a way of gassing the majority of the guards, and the rooftop where you're dropped off at the catacombs entrance actually offers a good sniping perch where you could take out the 3 patrolling commandos in the compound below from perfect safety. Both "lethal-playstyle" rewards, I might add.


True, but there are always some kind of rewards for exploration, XP or not. It is encouraged in many, many ways.

The conversation is specifically about XP. Of course exploration should have rewards (just like shooting everyone has rewards: you get to loot all the bodies), but it doesn't have to be (shouldn't be) XP. When I play DX, I find myself doing the same XP farming that I do in DX:HR, only in DX that consists of travelling all possible alternate paths specifically to collect an extra 50/100 XP here and there, compared to finding and performing non-lethal takedowns on all the hostiles I can find in DX:HR. It's not nearly as intrusive on the gameplay, but it's still there.


Oh yes. Xbow wielding enemies do become quite rare from HK onwards though.

You have greasels instead in many of the later maps, spider bots are fairly ubiquitous (although the aug doesn't protect against the energy drain, it does prevent some of the damage); both are present in large numbers (as well as Grays) in the final level. Minor points, but still, environmental protection does have its uses throughout the game.

CyberP
10th Jun 2014, 20:53
Of course exploration should have rewards (just like shooting everyone has rewards: you get to loot all the bodies), but it doesn't have to be (shouldn't be) XP. When I play DX, I find myself doing the same XP farming that I do in DX:HR, only in DX that consists of travelling all possible alternate paths specifically to collect an extra 50/100 XP here and there, compared to finding and performing non-lethal takedowns on all the hostiles I can find in DX:HR. It's not nearly as intrusive on the gameplay, but it's still there.

But you would do that anyway for all the other rewards; Weapon mods, aug upgrades, cash, health, BioE, ammo, tools, secondary objectives, everything.


The conversation is specifically about XP

So my point was invalid or not related somehow? Fallacy.


You have greasels instead in many of the later maps, spider bots are fairly ubiquitous (although the aug doesn't protect against the energy drain, it does prevent some of the damage); both are present in large numbers (as well as Grays) in the final level. Minor points, but still, environmental protection does have its uses throughout the game.

Vanilla Aug Enviro did nothing against spider bots:



if ((damageType == 'TearGas') || (damageType == 'PoisonGas') || (damageType == 'Radiation') ||
(damageType == 'HalonGas') || (damageType == 'PoisonEffect') || (damageType == 'Poison'))
{
if (AugmentationSystem != None)
augLevel = AugmentationSystem.GetAugLevelValue(class'AugEnviro');

if (augLevel >= 0.0)
newDamage *= augLevel;

But yes, I forgot about the greasels.

Ok, aug enviro is pretty good, especially in most mods as it protects against spiderbot damage too (but not EMP drain as you said). I am going to make aqualung passive, but not aug enviro. That should hopefully help balance the choice.
But half of aug enviro's use is still for exploration too.

Sponge
10th Jun 2014, 23:01
But you would do that anyway for all the other rewards; Weapon mods, aug upgrades, cash, health, BioE, ammo, tools, secondary objectives, everything.

Yes, I would, probably, if only because I like exploring; but not everyone is like you or me. And I don't see how "you would do it anyway" is in any way an argument for including XP bonuses for it, if anything it's another argument against them: You don't need xp incentives for exploring, because players will do it anyway for other reasons.

I would agree that such xp incentives would make sense if you accept the premise that a DX game is all about exploration - but I don't agree with that premise. You need to explore to an extent since there's no minimap or HUD indicators showing you where to go so you have to find your way on your own (this is a good thing!), but there's absolutely no requirement to check every nook and cranny as some of us like to do. Half-Life was very similar in that respect, although it had fewer nooks & crannies.


So my point was invalid or not related somehow?

Correct, it was not relevant. We are talking about experience and how having experience rewards for specific actions other than objective completion biases player behaviour artificially (as opposed to intrinsic biases because of preferred gameplay choices) because players have a metagame desire for better character growth. People generally aren't bothered, I think, by missing out on some extra ammo or medkits hidden somewhere. The truly valuable stuff (aug canisters/upgrades) has hints pointing to their existence and location.


Vanilla Aug Enviro did nothing against spider bots

Huh, how about that. I assumed it protected against everything the hazmat suit protects against (which - I believe? - does include electrical damage). I always used it when fighting spider bots - I guess they just don't do much actual damage in the first place :) (I generally don't use gameplay-changing mods for games.)

CyberP
10th Jun 2014, 23:44
if anything it's another argument against them: You don't need xp incentives for exploring, because players will do it anyway for other reasons.

Sure, but you do need it for other things (filling out locations/secret areas with universal rewards) which should take precedence.


I would agree that such xp incentives would make sense if you accept the premise that a DX game is all about exploration - but I don't agree with that premise. You need to explore to an extent since there's no minimap or HUD indicators showing you where to go so you have to find your way on your own (this is a good thing!), but there's absolutely no requirement to check every nook and cranny as some of us like to do. Half-Life was very similar in that respect, although it had fewer nooks & crannies.

Indeed, I never argued you have to explore every nook, I did argue that players that DO explore in this manner should be rewarded for it though, and that's where XP rewards have their true purpose. I don't think you read the arguments on this topic in full, as I'm just repeating myself here.


Huh, how about that. I assumed it protected against everything the hazmat suit protects against (which - I believe? - does include electrical damage). I always used it when fighting spider bots - I guess they just don't do much actual damage in the first place :) (I generally don't use gameplay-changing mods for games.)

Nope, Hazmat doesn't protect against it either, and gameplay mods fix such things. Gameplay mods are the best kind of mods imo, gameplay is afterall what makes games unique, and some gameplay mods have risen certain games to truly Deus Ex Machina status (Brutal Doom! Play God...from the machine!).

I question all gamers who do not value gameplay most. If the other forms of art is what you value (writing etc) you're probably better off looking elsewhere for better content (books). OK, valuing the digital art greatly I can understand because it is somewhat unique, especially 8/16/32 bit etc. But gameplay is what truly separates games, what no other mediums can replicate. People can draw digital art, digital gameplay is not replicable so easily. Of course every aspect of design and execution is important, but gameplay is the core. Gameplay makes art interactive. Even point and click adventures are made unique by the "gameplay", remove the gameplay they would be no different from movies.

Sponge
11th Jun 2014, 00:15
Sure, but you do need it for other things (filling out locations/secret areas with universal rewards) which should take precedence.

Indeed, I never argued you have to explore every nook, I did argue that players that DO explore in this manner should be rewarded for it though, and that's where XP rewards have their true purpose. I don't think you read the arguments on this topic in full, as I'm just repeating myself here.

And I agree with you, as I had previously written: Exploration should be rewarded. Just not with XP, since the discussion has already established that rewarding other gameplay styles (takedowns, etc) with extra XP is undesirable. Exploration is not a "special snowflake" in that regard, that being the point on which I agree with Wilks.

CyberP
11th Jun 2014, 00:50
And I agree with you, as I had previously written: Exploration should be rewarded. Just not with XP, since the discussion has already established that rewarding other gameplay styles (takedowns, etc) with extra XP is undesirable. Exploration is not a "special snowflake" in that regard, that being the point on which I agree with Wilks.

Sure, so let me repeat the question I asked Wilks which I did not get an answer to: If you made a DX1 mod that then removes the XP rewards for exploration, what would you replace them with, if anything? Because something is needed and it cannot be more ammo or any of the other resources.
DX has hundreds of secrets and xp helps fill them with a necessary reward that rewards both combat and stealth playstyles.
And whilst I can reason with why you dislike them, they should definitely not be lumped in the same boat as XP for headshots & takedowns etc because that causes many problems.

Sponge
11th Jun 2014, 02:09
Sure, so let me repeat the question I asked Wilks which I did not get an answer to: If you made a DX1 mod that then removes the XP rewards for exploration, what would you replace them with, if anything? Because something is needed and it cannot be more ammo or any of the other resources.
DX has hundreds of secrets and xp helps fill them with a necessary reward that rewards both combat and stealth playstyles.
And whilst I can reason with why you dislike them, they should definitely not be lumped in the same boat as XP for headshots & takedowns etc because that causes many problems.


I don't feel that exploration needs any extra rewards beyond what you've already mentioned, i.e., "weapon mods, aug upgrades, cash, health, BioE, ammo, tools, secondary objectives, everything", plus intangibles like extra information (whether that's background detail or directly useful bits like passwords etc.), easier paths, and the like. That's already a lot of stuff you can get through exploration, why do you feel it needs something else?

CyberP
11th Jun 2014, 02:34
why do you feel it needs something else?

I've already explained why before. Some secrets/locations would not yield adequate rewards if you took away the xp.

Only you (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPVHwwm-oDc), Spongey :)

Sponge
11th Jun 2014, 02:55
That seems awfully vague. Is there a defined amount of reward needed for each secret? How much experience is a clip of ammo worth, or a bioelectric cell, or a password on a datapad?

PS Nice music, thanks!

CyberP
11th Jun 2014, 03:42
More?

Behold, some special classics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1N-59zxdbc&feature=kp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnREExk7yF4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKMzbXcn26g

ResidentX
11th Jun 2014, 15:56
A surprise hit? LOL :-)

Everyone knew DE:HR was coming. The question was always HOW big...

OneUp77
12th Jun 2014, 02:19
Where do we go?

Hmmmmmm needs more health regen and 5 minute takedown cutscenes. And contextual jumping, worked well for Thief. Worked really well.

It's like Thief is the opposite of this game.

CyberP
15th Jun 2014, 09:27
Warren Spector's 10 commandments of game design: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-09-04-warren-spectors-commandments-of-game-design

Most apply to all games well, but multiple paths/choices at all times for example do not, such as racing Games.

Anyway, that's not why I posted this.

Spector said:

"Pat the player on the back frequently"

I guess this was the original reasoning for skill points for exploration in the concept stage, among other things. No harm in it. Exploration should be encouraged.

Smith expanded wonderfully upon Spector's core principles with Deus Ex:

Smith said:

"All missions, locations and problems will be specifically keyed to: Skills (and skill levels), Augmentations (and augmentation levels), Objects, Weapons."

"Gameplay will rely on a VARIETY of tools rather than just one - Character Capabilities (Skills/Augmentations), Resource Management, Combat, Character Interaction."

^wonderful.

I forget where I was going with this now. Ah yes, exploration and our previous discussion on it; allowing all players to explore every optional nook no matter the build. This wasn't the original intention, as we can see. Their goal was: multiple tools to do the job, however any given tools must be invested in for effective results. But they made a few mistakes, such as the rebreather, it was far too good in base stats and required no investment into the skill that it's tied to to be effective. Radiation hazards were not an issue due to all-purpose tools such as speed enhancement and regeneration augs, and so on.
That's where a third designer (that's me) comes in and polishes up, and then adds flavour/perspective bias of his own to expand on these great concepts further.
Who ever said three's a crowd ;)

...saying that though DX had more than two designers but Spector & Smith would have made the final calls.

neoWilks
15th Jun 2014, 20:52
Spector said:

"Pat the player on the back frequently"

I guess this was the original reasoning for skill points for exploration in the concept stage, among other things. No harm in it. Exploration should be encouraged.

I disagree with Spector pretty strongly here. First, it's lazy. It's easy to keep players invested when you're constantly giving them little rewards or tokens or points or whatever. Compelling world design, characters, story, etc doesn't need easy, out-of-place mechanics to hook the player. It does that just fine on its own. Second, it's condescending. Implying that players constantly need their egos stroked is stupid. Believable reactivity to actions the player takes is not the same thing as patting them on the back. Reactivity can just as often work against the player.

I still haven't seen you justify that exploration should be encouraged. All you've said is some exploration wouldn't be worthwhile without experience rewards. To me, this sounds less like "exploration should be encouraged" and more like "****ty exploration should be encouraged." Worthwhile exploration encouraged within the context of setting, it doesn't require additional junk on top of it.

It's not as though Deus Ex allowed for endless exploration. The places you can explore were specifically chosen and planned. If some of those areas didn't offer enough to justify players exploring them sans experience rewards, then those areas should be redesigned. Or missions/objectives/characters should be adjusted/rearranged to take better advantage of the explorable areas that do exist.

CyberP
15th Jun 2014, 21:15
I see reason in both yours and Spector's viewpoints.

I just look at things as they are now, in DX, and how I wouldn't agree with removing them. If I were to make a new Immersive Sim I'd seriously consider what you are saying though, as long as we could still find a way to have many, many rewarding (no matter the playstyle) secret areas etc without them, without instead filling them with tons of ammo etc.

Jito463
17th Jun 2014, 15:16
I'm curious about something, coming at this from another perspective. Given that the XP rewards directly affected the skill system, would those of you opposed to XP rewards for exploration be in favor of ditching the skill system entirely? If so, what would you propose as an alternative to the skills system? Or would you propose an alternate method of providing XP points? If so, what alternate method do you think would be appropriate? That which was used in DX:HR (which was obviously heavily skewed in favor of stealth/non-lethal), or some other method? If another method, what method would that be?

From my perspective, the XP reward system in DX1 allowed for character progression to proceed at a given pace, while also allowing players inclined to exploration to gain additional points to further upgrade their character. I think this allowed ISA to manage the flow of the game, by controlling how fast the player could upgrade their character's abilities.

ResidentX
17th Jun 2014, 15:28
I'm curious about something, coming at this from another perspective. Given that the XP rewards directly affected the skill system, would those of you opposed to XP rewards for exploration be in favor of ditching the skill system entirely? If so, what would you propose as an alternative to the skills system? Or would you propose an alternate method of providing XP points? If so, what alternate method do you think would be appropriate? That which was used in DX:HR (which was obviously heavily skewed in favor of stealth/non-lethal), or some other method? If another method, what method would that be?

I like the skill system but it's implementation is what I wonder about. In Deus Ex, I felt the skill system was too expensive but the game was made in 1998/1999 so I think the difficulty was a way to make the game more alluring and replayable. During my run, I didn't start using the skill system till about halfway through the game because I didn't want to waste the points.

In DE:HR, I felt the XP was liberal enough that I didn't have to worry about it but I liked how they integrated the augments and skill system. I just felt this was better for mass appeal of the game due to reduced complexity. Also, DE:HR was so well designed that if I had gaps, I could go back and "Harvest" maps to reach my goals. I used the trading house heavily(selling weapons back I found because my inventory was so large) to get all the augments early.

Each implementation had it's pros and cons. For Deus Ex, I have a notebook and I review the skills and my interpretation of the skills because of the levels before I play to keep their value in my mind when I come up against obstacles. In DE: HR, I felt it was WSIWYG.

CyberP
17th Jun 2014, 15:38
would those of you opposed to XP rewards for exploration be in favor of ditching the skill system entirely?.

Those that do should have their gaming rights revoked :D

The skill system is awesome. The method of rewarding XP is one of the best I've seen (no farming allowed, farming being a blight on many great RPGs, and the only influence on playstyles it has is exploration, which I see no problem in), and it added a lot more depth.
It's only problem was in balancing.

zwanzig_zwoelf
17th Jun 2014, 15:42
bro lets remove skill systems its boring how about spending more money on romance scenes and takedown animations instead

ResidentX
17th Jun 2014, 15:44
bro lets remove skill systems its boring how about spending more money on romance scenes and takedown animations instead

Romance scenes? Could you elaborate more on this? Do you want to see Jensen "augging" Megan Reed? :-)

Edit: Now you got me thinking about Burke..."How far would Megan go for her research..." Romance triangles would add a different dimension to the game.

I'm all for more takedown animations but I want to choose them not have them be random.

Jito463
17th Jun 2014, 16:13
Romance scenes? Could you elaborate more on this? Do you want to see Jensen "augging" Megan Reed? :-)

I just...I don't know what to say. For some reason, that particular phrasing just made me laugh. I can honestly say I've never quite heard it phrased that way before. Thanks for the chuckle. :D

CyberP
17th Jun 2014, 17:14
Romance scenes? Could you elaborate more on this? Do you want to see Jensen "augging" Megan Reed? :-)

Edit: Now you got me thinking about Burke..."How far would Megan go for her research..." Romance triangles would add a different dimension to the game.

I'm all for more takedown animations but I want to choose them not have them be random.

20_12 was not serious. He doesn't want any of that. You're the only one here that does, but that's OK, as long as your kind remain the minority or come to your senses :p

ResidentX
17th Jun 2014, 17:24
20_12 was not serious. He doesn't want any of that. You're the only one here that does, but that's OK, as long as your kind remain the minority or come to your senses :p

Should I ask why your calling zwanzig_zwoelf 20_12?

You don't care about takedown animations? Why not?

CyberP
17th Jun 2014, 17:25
takedown animations? Why not?

Because I care about simulated skill-based gameplay. NOT the awesome button https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV97ozaD4vs

ResidentX
17th Jun 2014, 17:30
Because I care about simulated skill-based gameplay. NOT the awesome button https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV97ozaD4vs

Listen to you...you Bro are hardcore, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-mPnmfrm6I

Purity First!

CyberP
17th Jun 2014, 17:32
you Bro are hardcore

Not really, I'm just a supporter of superior design :p

ResidentX
17th Jun 2014, 17:39
Not really, I'm just a supporter of superior design :p

Yada, Yada, Yada...your ARE hardcore...

Read the definition below and face yourself in the mirror...


1. Unswervingly committed; uncompromising; dedicated: a hard-core segregationist.


2. Pruriently explicit; graphically depicted: hard-core pornography. Compare soft-core.


3. Being so without apparent change or remedy; chronic: hard-core inflation; hard-core unemployment

WildcatPhoenix
17th Jun 2014, 18:56
Should I ask why your calling zwanzig_zwoelf 20_12?


Zwanzig= 20, in German. Zwoelf (zwölf)= 12.

zwanzig_zwoelf
17th Jun 2014, 20:00
Romance scenes? Could you elaborate more on this? Do you want to see Jensen "augging" Megan Reed? :-)

Edit: Now you got me thinking about Burke..."How far would Megan go for her research..." Romance triangles would add a different dimension to the game.

I'm all for more takedown animations but I want to choose them not have them be random.

bro yeah that would be cool like megan i wont let you inject that thing into my body i know that bill taggart was your first lover oh god adam im sorry i hoped youll never find out dont worry sweetheart you didnt see what me and you uncle david were doing in the back room of your lab of god so that patient x dna is your dna combined with sarifs and so on that would be cool :)

ResidentX
17th Jun 2014, 20:20
bro yeah that would be cool like megan i wont let you inject that thing into my body i know that bill taggart was your first lover oh god adam im sorry i hoped youll never find out dont worry sweetheart you didnt see what me and you uncle david were doing in the back room of your lab of god so that patient x dna is your dna combined with sarifs and so on that would be cool :)


This is a good idea but the game would have to change. This following is my opinion:

1. They have to upgrade the Computer-Assisted Social Interaction Enhancer(C.A.S.I.E). Maybe add a level 2 so you could detect lies and then build a storyline where someone could misdirect you if you weren't paying attention or didn't have the augmentation.

2. There would have to be an option for regular dialog or extended. I think if you had the level 2 then you might get access to extended dialog. I mention this for replay value. I just don't want this to become SWTOR, where all you doing is making choices all the time.

This would be cool but this changes the dynamics of the game to more real life. People who are on your side some times have a reason to see you fail or backstab you. In DE:HR, the people were pretty clear in their positions. In the Original Deus Ex, I think this concept was applied marvelously. I loved the fact that I could bribe someone in Deus Ex....the true nature of people...the sin of greed.

My only other wish is that the Eidos Team would create an Upper Hengsha Story/module like the Missing Link to add to DE: HR before we get the Final DX4. Hearing about that in the Director's Cut made me feel the game would be incomplete without it. Finish what you start...

zwanzig_zwoelf
17th Jun 2014, 20:43
This is a good idea but the game would have to change. This following is my opinion:

1. They have to upgrade the Computer-Assisted Social Interaction Enhancer(C.A.S.I.E). Maybe add a level 2 so you could detect lies and then build a storyline where someone could misdirect you if you weren't paying attention or didn't have the augmentation.

2. There would have to be an option for regular dialog or extended. I think if you had the level 2 then you might get access to extended dialog. I mention this for replay value. I just don't want this to become SWTOR, where all you doing is making choices all the time.

This would be cool but this changes the dynamics of the game to more real life. People who are on your side some times have a reason to see you fail or backstab you. In DE:HR, the people were pretty clear in their positions. In the Original Deus Ex, I think this concept was applied marvelously. I loved the fact that I could bribe someone in Deus Ex....the true nature of people...the sin of greed.

bro that brings additional layer of visceral love gameplay and empowers the social pillar of deus ex franchise also adds more to others like using stealth to get past your lover to never let them know you were cheating, using hacking to plant false evidence and emails and using combat to slap and run away :)

ResidentX
17th Jun 2014, 20:52
bro that brings additional layer of visceral love gameplay and empowers the social pillar of deus ex franchise also adds more to others like using stealth to get past your lover to never let them know you were cheating, using hacking to plant false evidence and emails and using combat to slap and run away :)

I think your going too far here. Are you playing DE:HR to score? "Cheaters" invades Human Revolution? Doesn't seem like a human revolution now...more like human nature. How's does this work? Does this mean my augmented lovers have higher priority than natural ones? For example, the infolink...you can have private conversations with many people. I can make booty calls to augmented girls/women while I have to pound the pavement for "purity" one(natural ones)?

I think you have good idea. I was sitting here thinking about how this is workable. The relationships you choose will be how the tips and information come to you. I hate the thought of infolink conversations during key moments being interrupted by a former paramour but if he/she has tip...that's different.

Relationship ABC might have different result than Relationship BCD.

The other issue I have is now we start actually mining neurohubs for past relationships information and stuff. Target X has relationships with X,Y,Z. Find out which one has the money, information, goods, codes, etc. Maybe we could see video of those relationships too :-)

Did you ever play that game call "remember me?"

zwanzig_zwoelf
17th Jun 2014, 21:21
bro i played just a small bit of it i thought the story is too complex to entertain me so i decided to put it on hold until they give me a dlc about lost love and make kid xmas romanceable but feel free to tell me more about the game maybe ill change my mind and give it a proper go :)

ResidentX
17th Jun 2014, 21:35
bro i played just a small bit of it i thought the story is too complex to entertain me so i decided to put it on hold until they give me a dlc about lost love and make kid xmas romanceable but feel free to tell me more about the game maybe ill change my mind and give it a proper go :)

The premise of the story was this girl who could view these memories and then change them so they happen different. The thing I want to bring up was that she could view the memories of her victims. That would be cool to see the previous relationships for clues like code on a piece of paper or the keystrokes keyed into a computer. Basically, things as they happen in the moment. You'd be surprised how many things we do as humans that aren't traceable/recorded to be able to see those details would be priceless.

zwanzig_zwoelf
17th Jun 2014, 22:21
The premise of the story was this girl who could view these memories and then change them so they happen different. The thing I want to bring up was that she could view the memories of her victims. That would be cool to see the previous relationships for clues like code on a piece of paper or the keystrokes keyed into a computer. Basically, things as they happen in the moment. You'd be surprised how many things we do as humans that aren't traceable/recorded to be able to see those details would be priceless.

bro you are genius are you working for eidos montreal :)

68_pie
24th Jun 2014, 20:14
Tentacle Aug?

Lady_Of_The_Vine
24th Jun 2014, 20:40
bro you are genius are you working for eidos montreal :)

If he is... he won't let on. :naughty:

ResidentX
24th Jun 2014, 21:03
Tentacle Aug?

How much bioelectric energy will you need...that's my question?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Fyf4R-nzI


If he is... he won't let on. :naughty:

If I worked at Eidos, I'd be leaking details about DX4...does this help?

Lady_Of_The_Vine
24th Jun 2014, 21:33
If I worked at Eidos, I'd be leaking details about DX4...does this help?

Not really. NDA. :whistle: :D

ResidentX
24th Jun 2014, 21:34
This job's getting more complicated by the second....I'm off to the clock tower to clear my head.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
24th Jun 2014, 21:37
Its a cosy place with a magnificent view. :D