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Xaragoth
18th Nov 2013, 18:13
So, we just found out we can only press Search with 4 players. Can we fix it so we can make bigger groups that get split evenly between both teams? Yes? Good. Thanks :)

Psyonix_Corey
18th Nov 2013, 18:21
Matchmaking with more than one full team will not be supported. If you can fill the opposing team, you can abuse the system to play ranked matches against dummy accounts to powerlevel your XP, Gold, and Stats.

We have "private" match support coming that will allow you to fill an entire match and customize the team sizes, map, and game mode to your liking, but it will not grant XP or Gold.

Xaragoth
18th Nov 2013, 18:33
Matchmaking with more than one full team will not be supported. If you can fill the opposing team, you can abuse the system to play ranked matches against dummy accounts to powerlevel your XP, Gold, and Stats.

We have "private" match support coming that will allow you to fill an entire match and customize the team sizes, map, and game mode to your liking, but it will not grant XP or Gold.

That sounds alright in general for when we keep the Gold and XP, but for the Alpha that's gonna make problems with the plans we have made to test better :(

After all 40-5 matches are bad for testing anything.


Also appearently things broke with Grouping in general. We made seperat groups now to find matches and it just puts the party leader into a match, everyone else is basically not matched.

hirukaru
18th Nov 2013, 20:06
I agree with Xara,

We do agree that ofcourse in release people will abuse it.
But for testing it would be nicer if we could team up.

Tidus
18th Nov 2013, 20:26
I agree with Xara,

We do agree that ofcourse in release people will abuse it.
But for testing it would be nicer if we could team up.

Yep, +1!

Strike5150
18th Nov 2013, 22:29
I don't even see how that is game breaking. There is no real advantage for experience or gold. Who cares? So far some things are straight up item upgrades, but I just figured that was an accident not a design decision. It seems like the items just help with certain play styles, instead of being a straight up advantage.

With the current implementation I'm not even sure why you would care if someone wanted to "abuse" it. Besides that there must be cleverer ways of dealing with this problem than nerfing the grouping. I honestly have to say that if this game is going to be competitive than making it harder to play as a team is not a step in the right direction.

Not earning experience or gold seems silly, it would take maybe 2-3 weeks of solid play and I'd have everything I need anyway. So how is that game breaking?

Psyonix_Corey
18th Nov 2013, 22:57
Just because Gold and XP aren't super scarce or useful right now doesn't mean they will always be that way.

We intentionally make most gameplay-relevant items like Abilities obtainable without too much of a grind, but that is only the launch content and doesn't include the rare item system that we haven't rolled to you guys yet. Once you can spend Gold to buy a random grab bag with a chance at a rare Crossbow with stats that shoots icy bolts, it becomes a lot more important to keep people from exploiting the system.

You can already queue as a full team (aside from any bugs in the latest build), so I don't see how disallowing people from filling entire matches in ranked play is making it "harder to play as a team". All the team-based games I play with matchmaking work in this exact fashion. You can't queue with 10 people in DOTA2 or LoL, for instance - you either fill one team and queue (5 people) or you play an organized private match.

Xaragoth
18th Nov 2013, 23:56
Just because Gold and XP aren't super scarce or useful right now doesn't mean they will always be that way.

We intentionally make most gameplay-relevant items like Abilities obtainable without too much of a grind, but that is only the launch content and doesn't include the rare item system that we haven't rolled to you guys yet. Once you can spend Gold to buy a random grab bag with a chance at a rare Crossbow with stats that shoots icy bolts, it becomes a lot more important to keep people from exploiting the system.

You can already queue as a full team (aside from any bugs in the latest build), so I don't see how disallowing people from filling entire matches in ranked play is making it "harder to play as a team". All the team-based games I play with matchmaking work in this exact fashion. You can't queue with 10 people in DOTA2 or LoL, for instance - you either fill one team and queue (5 people) or you play an organized private match.

We don't disagree there Corey, really. Un-Queue'd Matches in LoL though give you very small IP for example, just sayin'. But we don't want it much different either.

What we really just want here is being able to fight each other in the game, have a fun match. But we also need the ability to gain Gold and Exp(not so much as Gold) to unlock items and have a go at them to test.

Basically we just want to be able to test in a environment of skilled players to improve the feedback we can give on higher-level of play (you know yourself how much we stomp randoms, you played one round on our team and we all destroyed them - and it's not fun for either side, even if we got massive gold per hour). And with the current system we lack the means to do so.

All we really ask is for a way to play with friends during the Alpha that works normally so we aren't forced to grind gold each day and play once a week only. You're gonna wipe it all anyways towards Beta, so I don't see much reason. Right now the gold gain is very fairy and we all don't think it needs any major changes as it is. We get some for being skilled and some for the round.


Just discuss it a bit and see if it's too much work/too unreasonable of us to ask or not. We'd really be grateful if we could team up :)

And I am pretty sure all the new Level 1 Testers would be too. Ransom is max level by now.

Syst3mzero
19th Nov 2013, 00:05
Matchmaking with more than one full team will not be supported. If you can fill the opposing team, you can abuse the system to play ranked matches against dummy accounts to powerlevel your XP, Gold, and Stats.

We have "private" match support coming that will allow you to fill an entire match and customize the team sizes, map, and game mode to your liking, but it will not grant XP or Gold.

I do see your point but it might be a good idea to try and get private matchmaking up reasonably soon, these guys are devastating and they are doing all the other testers a favour by playing in the same match rather than flattening new players beyond the point of despair, a lvl based match making would also fix the problem so they don't end up in the games with lvl 1s and 2s.

Not only does them playing better matched games help the other testers but it helps the developers too, this will push them to compete harder and be more creative which will yield better results and feedback for balance, exploits and load out skill performance.

Also a big thanks to the higher lvl guys for jumping out of the lobby with low level players in them today, its very appreciated, think I may have to start doing the same soon seems I'm becoming a bit too experienced to play with people in the lower levels.

Xaragoth
19th Nov 2013, 01:01
I do see your point but it might be a good idea to try and get private matchmaking up reasonably soon, these guys are devastating and they are doing all the other testers a favour by playing in the same match rather than flattening new players beyond the point of despair, a lvl based match making would also fix the problem so they don't end up in the games with lvl 1s and 2s.

Not only does them playing better matched games help the other testers but it helps the developers too, this will push them to compete harder and be more creative which will yield better results and feedback for balance, exploits and load out skill performance.

Also a big thanks to the higher lvl guys for jumping out of the lobby with low level players in them today, its very appreciated, think I may have to start doing the same soon seems I'm becoming a bit too experienced to play with people in the lower levels.

I think we had one or two matches where people randomly joined the Lobby we hijacked and were Level 1. They didn't stay for more than one round. We try to leave the matches by now if we see none of the more skilled people on the other teams (I think everyone knows everyone by now from the older test groups - though some newer ones are pretty good as well), since we got more time to test this week - but often it's the only open Lobby and we just say "Screw it, at least we get to play."

The problem for us is that we actually currently need to go in and stomp a Lobby or find a clean one and then invite people/have them queue-snipe to reach the game we are in and inviting the others. It's very complicated, likely to be interrupted by random new testers joining (and then not having much of a chance and leaving) and actually does exactly what Corey said they don't want to happen.

We had a blast when the teams were fair today. Most of the time they weren't, because we can't organize the teams at all.

And we are losing so much time with messing around this way that we might as well make two 4 player groups and just go play in those - and that means not one group, but two are out and about in the public games. Even if we mix players a little bit for even skill levels.

I think since private matches aren't gonna happen soon (takes time to code) the best solution right now would be to just set the queue limit up to 8 and let us go about our thing. We aren't gonna be able to make ghost accounts, since we can only have one. And we'd never have the trouble of organizing the teams or having random people in it for a round that will not enjoy their time a lot.

Also it might have some nice data to look at (maybe) if we'd post the Server ID each time.

It's really for now just a win-win situation for everyone. Devs get better data, new testers get a better start into the game and can learn on their own terms instead of being frustrated (some people were 2-15 by the end of a round), the Gold and Exp will both be wiped so nobody has to be bothered by problems like Ghost-Farming yet and we'll have our own little place where we play among ourselves in an environment we can enjoy it. Actually we'd make less Gold than we do right now, since both teams would win sometimes, instead of only winning.

And when the real private matchmaking is ready and good to go, we can just set it to 4 again and all is well. Or if the Beta comes around.

Strike5150
19th Nov 2013, 12:05
Just because Gold and XP aren't super scarce or useful right now doesn't mean they will always be that way.

We intentionally make most gameplay-relevant items like Abilities obtainable without too much of a grind, but that is only the launch content and doesn't include the rare item system that we haven't rolled to you guys yet. Once you can spend Gold to buy a random grab bag with a chance at a rare Crossbow with stats that shoots icy bolts, it becomes a lot more important to keep people from exploiting the system.

You can already queue as a full team (aside from any bugs in the latest build), so I don't see how disallowing people from filling entire matches in ranked play is making it "harder to play as a team". All the team-based games I play with matchmaking work in this exact fashion. You can't queue with 10 people in DOTA2 or LoL, for instance - you either fill one team and queue (5 people) or you play an organized private match.

So before I continue, if you guys are not ready to reveal things that we need to know to understand this, just ignore the rest and let me know we can stop discussing it :).

With Dota or LoL you can fill a matchmaking queue in a private lobby with all your friends and there is no downside to doing so and you can get into that lobby with 10 people. You don't get less items or less gold or less experience. Thats because there is no advantage to doing so. My comment was more or less to make that point, not demean the effort(I could have worded it better, my bad). If there is no advantage there won't be any point in making ghost accounts.

Rare items are great but if its more powerful than a normal item you will end up with power creep, I'm not sure if thats what you mean when you said the crossbow were to shoot a different kind of bolt or if its just a cool visual change. Thats not to say you can't build a game like that, I would still enjoy it and play it. However, its not something I can see being competitive since power = time spent not skill. I am totally excited to see these BTW :).

At the very least it would be cool if during the alpha we could receive said bonuses while grouping in private lobbies so we can test the game against each other instead of stomping the newcomers. Its not really fun to run around and pretend I don't know how to play, and it results in a bunch of posts about vampires or humans being overpowered depending on which one was used to do the stomping.

Psyonix_Corey
19th Nov 2013, 17:31
Let's be super clear because there may be some confusion here. We are NOT talking about queueing with your friends up to a full single team's worth of players. That will always be supported for matchmaking.

Regarding Private/Custom matches that let you fill up the *entire* match with people you know:
- You don't earn XP or find items from DOTA 2 matches started in Private lobbies, only public matchmaking (which caps party size at one team).
- LoL gives IP (equivalent to our Gold) for "Custom Games", but it's reduced and there is a cap (I believe it's 5 games per day that can give IP from custom games).

We have private match support that we could turn on, there's two major problems:
- It may have bugs that don't exist when playing on dedicated servers. It's an alpha etc. etc., but it can take some convincing to get everybody involved in the project to release something with potential major issues.
- It's currently hosted by the party host, not by a dedicated server. It's possible to have private matches hosted on our servers, we just haven't had time to implement it yet. So you'd see more latency on average.

The rare items will not have a power increase, they are sidegrades (+one stat, -another stat) that can have unique visual FX.

Xaragoth
19th Nov 2013, 18:44
Let's be super clear because there may be some confusion here. We are NOT talking about queueing with your friends up to a full single team's worth of players. That will always be supported for matchmaking.

Regarding Private/Custom matches that let you fill up the *entire* match with people you know:
- You don't earn XP or find items from DOTA 2 matches started in Private lobbies, only public matchmaking (which caps party size at one team).
- LoL gives IP (equivalent to our Gold) for "Custom Games", but it's reduced and there is a cap (I believe it's 5 games per day that can give IP from custom games).

We have private match support that we could turn on, there's two major problems:
- It may have bugs that don't exist when playing on dedicated servers. It's an alpha etc. etc., but it can take some convincing to get everybody involved in the project to release something with potential major issues.
- It's currently hosted by the party host, not by a dedicated server. It's possible to have private matches hosted on our servers, we just haven't had time to implement it yet. So you'd see more latency on average.

The rare items will not have a power increase, they are sidegrades (+one stat, -another stat) that can have unique visual FX.

Oh, so the items are the TF2 System? Cool, cool. Looking forward to the Fiery Warbow of Sentinel Dropping ;) What comes for Vamps?

Can relate that you don't want to release something potentially breaking, but please keep in mind that in the current state, if we do not manage to get most of us in both teams, the games are ridiculously unbalanced and unfair for others. We are doing our best, but we already had two games only this evening where the Level 1s got very frustrated. And one where we could play against each other and it was a close 1 point difference and even the new people who filled up our slots had fun because they didn't get farmed.

We'd rather take bugs and some crashed and fair rounds over the current one. However we'd probably really need you to unlock Gold and Exp for the Alpha to make it work. Otherwise we'd need to farm until we got unlocks for our favorite human/vampire classes in public games - unbalancing them in our favor each time :/

Maglauf
6th Jun 2014, 22:58
I have searched but I can't find any info if there will be possible to queue or create a private game? This would be an excellent lan game (currently at one) and we really miss the possibility to create a private lobby so we can play 4v4 with friends only.

Sorry if this is something that's already been answered somewhere, nothing came up on searching.

MasterZtark
6th Jun 2014, 23:38
Update on Matchmaking and Parties: http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=13344

At the moment the only way to play with 8 friends is to find an empty lobby and everyone join on each other (before random people start getting added to the lobby).

Maglauf
8th Jun 2014, 08:43
Yea, we tried that but without success, randoms always got in before all of us could join up.

Thanks for the link, looking forward to that alot!

Shikei001
8th Jun 2014, 09:56
If u got 7 or 8 players (sometimes 6) i would recommend siege :D
With 2 organized teams its really fun :) and the lobbys are nearly always empty xD

lucinvampire
8th Jun 2014, 13:36
You can invite friends to a Party prior to selecting a Lobby - at the screen where you select what type of game to play - you can then search for a Lobby whilst you are all in your group - it should dump you in a Lobby with enough space - not 100% sure if it works for 8 - I've only tried with a max of 6.


If u got 7 or 8 players (sometimes 6) i would recommend siege :D
With 2 organized teams its really fun :) and the lobbys are nearly always empty xD

This is a very good suggestion - it's good for pre-made team games!

Khalith
8th Jun 2014, 14:39
If u got 7 or 8 players (sometimes 6) i would recommend siege :D
With 2 organized teams its really fun :) and the lobbys are nearly always empty xD

That's a really good idea actually. Siege makes it easiest to do premade vs premade.

Gugulug5000
20th Jun 2014, 01:45
So I realize the matchmaking system is getting overhauled, but I had some suggestions/questions regarding custom lobbies. I play with a bunch of my friends (8 people currently, my brother and I introduced the other 6 to Nosgoth, you're welcome Psyonix :D) so we frequently have more than 4 players that want to play together, but a party can't have more than 4 people so finding each other in a match can be quite difficult (considering rooms merge together now, it's hard to find a room with 5 or 6 slots that stays open long enough for us all to find each other). Is there any chance we can soon see an option for creating an empty lobby, letting the 5-8 of us in, then opening it for other people to join? Also when we play on a team of 4, we often would like to be able to play against each other, but in the same lobby, so will there be an option to join a room together, but not play on a team? Thanks for the replies ahead of time, the game's looking great.

EDIT: Thread just got merged with a relevant one, so my questions have pretty much been answered. Kind of bummed out that we won't get gold in private matches, but I can understand why. Would making a party of 6 that gets shuffled up between the two teams be a possibility? If there are six players who get randomized between the two teams, with two random players it would be quite difficult to farm gold.