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View Full Version : Reducing Lara's breast size is misguided and wrong.



Psycho_Kenshin
4th Feb 2014, 12:09
I know this is a messy topic we try to avoid on the forums, but depictions of the human body and how it reflects our culture and whatnot are actual issues.

We know CD made an artistic choice to have Lara be less busty in the latest game, plus they did this in 2005 too. I'm sure it was a marketing decision made in a boardroom, and it's a misguided one.

This artistic choice is a very superficial and misguided way for them to try and downplay the "sexy" roots of her character. But oddly enough that choice is the most shallow of all, because it implies a person's body proportions determine who they are.

The backlash against very normal human anatomy that this kind of thing represents kind of disturbs me. There's nothing inherently "naughty" about breasts no matter what size they are. D-cups are no more or less naughty than B-cups for example, and beauty is all personal taste anyway.

It's artistic cowardice, as odd as the subject may seem. It is in it's own way bigotry against people with certain body types. I've read from busty actresses that they can't get some roles because people say their breasts are a "distraction", stuff like that. It's kind of repugnant, honestly.

If Lara did happen to have large breasts in these new games, and was still characterized exactly as she is, wouldn't that be a good message? Isn't it a shame that certain body types are considered "taboo"? If their idea is that Lara is more "normal" or "relatable" now, what does that say about women with big breasts? Why would her anatomy have anything to do with that?

I know it's just one artistic detail, but in a way I do find it to be unfortunate, and it's a very unfortunate idea that people who happen to have a certain bra size are considered limited in the roles they'll be portrayed in. This is a character who was notably big breasted, I think having the character be like that and kind of having the message that hey, the body is just the body, it doesn't determine who you are. That would be a positive thing.

While the art style is more realistic than in the old stylized days, having big breasts has never been an unrealistic aspect itself. People come in all shapes and sizes. There's no need for these strange body shame issues.

Nobody complains about Lara having as curvy a derriere as ever, and many are more attracted to that than breasts, plus it's what we see in the camera. And nobody is complaining about the constant very small waist sizes. Lara is of course still an idealized character physically, whether this is automatically bad is another issue, but blaming breasts is wrong. Making her less busty in an attempt to be "inoffensive" is actually an offensive thing.

This character is a good opportunity to fight these prejudices, a person who happens to be large breasted presented with respect and taken seriously.

Driber
4th Feb 2014, 12:18
I agree with most of your points and I think you hit the nail on the head with certain issues. There is indeed a lot of unnecessary resistance/dislike towards large breasts and beautiful women in general. And a lot of it is hypocritical and bigoted in itself, as you said.

We've discussed the Lara's boobs issue over and over (we especially had a lengthy discussion on the "realistic" aspect of Lara's boobs in this thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=116317) I remember) and there are people who like it and people who don't like it. Some of the people's reasons are legit, but definitely not all of them.

I completely disagree with those who claim that Lara having smaller boobs now is more "realistic" or "normal". That couldn't be further from the truth. And no, I'm not considering the early promotional art of classic Lara :p

"Relatable", however, is a personal thing and there is no "universal truth" to that. Though it also bears the question if that isn't just as superficial as the opposite :whistle:

At least that's my view on it. No offence to anyone :)

Jurre
4th Feb 2014, 13:04
I know this is a messy topic we try to avoid on the forums, but depictions of the human body and how it reflects our culture and whatnot are actual issues.


I have said before: how a main character looks is one of the most important things in a videogame, so I think it's perfectly fine to discuss this, even though there's people who are like: 'oh here we go talk about boobs again!'

Having said that: over the years, as graphics in games have improved more and more, the characters also have been portrayed more and more realistically. Compared to the TR9 Lara model the models in Legend and Anniversary and even Underworld were cartoonish, with unrealistic body proportions, giant eyes and lips and such. I am not saying that is wrong because it works fine within a less realistic, somewhat cartoonish world. (although Team Ninja always finds a way to make their female characters look ridiculous, even within the crazy world of their games)

But for TR9 they descided to drop most of the cartoony elements and go for a world that is more grounded in reality. And in such a case, giant boobs don't work anymore - in combination with a slim body. A breast is mostly made up of fat, and if the body is losing it's fat so do the breasts. Thin girls have small breasts, chubby girls have bigger ones - there's always exceptions but that's basicly it. And I think we all agree that Lara is not the type of person to go get implants.

It would be so weird and out of place to have this good looking realistic world and then all of the sudden a character with a totaly unbelievable body type comes up. It just doesn't work from a creative point of view. And speaking for myself: I find it very unattractive if a girl has these giant boobs in combination with a thin body and a flat scrawny arse - the body just doesn't seem right, it's not in balance, and it looks fake. That is one of my many problems with the Underworld character model.

So I think you've got it all wrong when you're saying that her bustyness is downplayed to be less offensive: in fact I think she still is busty - again, busty for that body type - I don't see that many girls as slim as that with C cups or whatever it is she's got (I don't know I don't wear bra's). If it truly was their intention to remove all the bustyness out of her she would have been as flat as the girl in the first Uncharted game. But that is not the case, she's still relatively busty. And I am totaly fine with that, because her body doesn't look unbalanced, though I think it would become so if she was going to get any larger than that. So for me Crystal Dynamics did it perfectly fine.

Driber
4th Feb 2014, 13:20
Jurre, I think you perfectly exemplified the OP's point about body shaming and the misconception that slim bodies with large (not giant) beasts are unrealistic, cartoonish, or weird. Just because you haven't seen many of them doesn't mean they do not exist in large numbers and that it's "unbalanced". It's all about genetics and dietary habits.

And if you don't take into account the aforementioned early promotional material of classic Lara, which I said I do not consider, and just focus on how Lara actually looked like in-game, you will notice that she never actually had a "giant chest".

Psycho_Kenshin
4th Feb 2014, 13:48
I really appreciate your posts Driber, very well said.

Murphdawg1
4th Feb 2014, 13:56
I know this is a messy topic we try to avoid on the forums, but depictions of the human body and how it reflects our culture and whatnot are actual issues.

We know CD made an artistic choice to have Lara be less busty in the latest game, plus they did this in 2005 too. I'm sure it was a marketing decision made in a boardroom, and it's a misguided one.

This artistic choice is a very superficial and misguided way for them to try and downplay the "sexy" roots of her character. But oddly enough that choice is the most shallow of all, because it implies a person's body proportions determine who they are.

The backlash against very normal human anatomy that this kind of thing represents kind of disturbs me. There's nothing inherently "naughty" about breasts no matter what size they are. D-cups are no more or less naughty than B-cups for example, and beauty is all personal taste anyway.

It's artistic cowardice, as odd as the subject may seem. It is in it's own way bigotry against people with certain body types. I've read from busty actresses that they can't get some roles because people say their breasts are a "distraction", stuff like that. It's kind of repugnant, honestly.

If Lara did happen to have large breasts in these new games, and was still characterized exactly as she is, wouldn't that be a good message? Isn't it a shame that certain body types are considered "taboo"? If their idea is that Lara is more "normal" or "relatable" now, what does that say about women with big breasts? Why would her anatomy have anything to do with that?

I know it's just one artistic detail, but in a way I do find it to be unfortunate, and it's a very unfortunate idea that people who happen to have a certain bra size are considered limited in the roles they'll be portrayed in. This is a character who was notably big breasted, I think having the character be like that and kind of having the message that hey, the body is just the body, it doesn't determine who you are. That would be a positive thing.

While the art style is more realistic than in the old stylized days, having big breasts has never been an unrealistic aspect itself. People come in all shapes and sizes. There's no need for these strange body shame issues.

Nobody complains about Lara having as curvy a derriere as ever, and many are more attracted to that than breasts, plus it's what we see in the camera. And nobody is complaining about the constant very small waist sizes. Lara is of course still an idealized character physically, whether this is automatically bad is another issue, but blaming breasts is wrong. Making her less busty in an attempt to be "inoffensive" is actually an offensive thing.

This character is a good opportunity to fight these prejudices, a person who happens to be large breasted presented with respect and taken seriously.


They do but why can't you accept that reboot Lara operates in a different universe than the previous Lara? Lara is not small chested by any means but the way you are acting is if they totally removed her boobs all together. Are you posting this here too because you didn't really get anywhere on TRF?

Driber
4th Feb 2014, 14:05
Murph, how is "different universe" negating his points?

If the devs made Lara a black women who was born in America and talks like Gozell for the reboot, would you also be saying "but it's a different universe now, so just accept it"?

pirate1802
4th Feb 2014, 14:08
People with large breasts do indeed exist (surprise?) but the problem is, whereas in the real world, some (or many) people do have large breasts, in videogames, until a few years ago, almost every female character had large or super-emphasized breasts. Thats why I can't take the real-world-women-are-busty-too argument seriously. In real world, some women are busty (to that degree) but in vidyagaems everyone is busty. In the last few years thankfully we are moving away from that situation. That is what people mean when they say she's more "realistic" now. Because as others have said, women with large breasts do indeed exist and so there is nothing wrong if Lara had large breasts too, only that if we are to apply this logic to every female characters, we'd be back to the beginning. And to be sure this exists on the other side too. Notice how most of the male protagonists in videogames are unbelievably chiseled and posses the body befitting a greek god? How many fat or really skinny male characters do we see in videogames? This thing exists on both sides and both of them can excuse themselves by saying oh! such people do exist in real life, so any attempts to change them is body shaming! But taken as a whole they all build a very very non-real lifelike universe. But then again, as you said, she always had largeish breasts, so they should not have changed this defining feature of hers.

If the devs made Lara a black women who was born in America and talks like Gozell for the reboot, would you also be saying "but it's a different universe now, so just accept it"?

I'd be totally down for something like that. My Skyrim character is essentially a black Lara.. :p

a_big_house
4th Feb 2014, 14:09
If the devs made Lara a black women who was born in America and talks like Gozell for the reboot, would you also be saying "but it's a different universe now, so just accept it"?

But that who be changing who/what Lara is - Changing her boobs doesn't have the same effect, her boobs aren't who she is, if you get what I mean?

pirate1802
4th Feb 2014, 14:11
Changing her boobs doesn't have the same effect, her boobs aren't who she is, if you get what I mean?

Seeing the numerous ragestorms over her boobs over multiple forums I'm a little confused about that lol

And yes, I must admit that even though she has less.. weight than before she is still busty. It is just reduced a little to fit the tone of the game better. If they had anything against boobs they'd make her a manchester. Which she isn't anywhere near, atm.

Murphdawg1
4th Feb 2014, 14:14
Murph, how is "different universe" negating his points?

If the devs made Lara a black women who was born in America and talks like Gozell for the reboot, would you also be saying "but it's a different universe now, so just accept it"?

Because you can't use old Lara as an example when talking about new Lara. I mean does anyone here other than the OP even think that Lara is small chested? If you've played the game and i'm sure you have Driber since your name is in the credits at the end of it, you'd agree that Lara still has a chest on her.

Jurre
4th Feb 2014, 14:26
Are you posting this here too because you didn't really get anywhere on TRF?

Oh gosh, so he went looking for support here after not finding it there?

Don't you know that people are the same where ever you go? There is good and bad, in eeeveryone.... Ebony and Ivory - Paul McCartney and Stevie Wonder.

Seriously, what works and doesn't work from a creative point of view is not determined by just logic: it's an assessment of what feels good to the great majority of people. And in that regard I think Crystal Dynamics did almost everything right. And that includes Lara's cupsize.

The fact that there are still people complaining about this or that stems from the simple fact that you can't please everyone. The great majority is all you can hope to achieve. Please the great majority and it's mission accomplished.

_Ninja_
4th Feb 2014, 15:31
You could find women with Lara's proportions in real life but I think the art style was meant to portray a cartoony stylized image of curvaceous woman not an actual real one.

They've reinterpreted that for a different art style and I'd say mostly kept everything recognizably intact. She still has the curves and those are definitely not small.

Driber
4th Feb 2014, 15:48
People with large breasts do indeed exist (surprise?) but the problem is, whereas in the real world, some (or many) people do have large breasts, in videogames, until a few years ago, almost every female character had large or super-emphasized breasts. Thats why I can't take the real-world-women-are-busty-too argument seriously. In real world, some women are busty (to that degree) but in vidyagaems everyone is busty.

Uhm, no. That is a stereotype about women in videogames. I can show you plenty of female videogame characters that don't have Lola Ferari sized boobs, lol.

(Not that I think Lara has those :p)


In the last few years thankfully we are moving away from that situation. That is what people mean when they say she's more "realistic" now.

It's probably not a good idea to speak for others. While I'm sure some people will agree with you there, I'm also sure many people don't.


Because as others have said, women with large breasts do indeed exist and so there is nothing wrong if Lara had large breasts too

I've seen sooooo many people who had a problem with Lara having large breasts. So I do not think your argument works here.


only that if we are to apply this logic to every female characters, we'd be back to the beginning.

Okay, so according to your reasoning, it would be perfectly okay to change like 80% of all videogame characters from men to women? After all, the vast majority of videogame characters are male, right?


And to be sure this exists on the other side too. Notice how most of the male protagonists in videogames are unbelievably chiseled and posses the body befitting a greek god?

Yeah, and I don't have a problem with those, either. Despite the fact that they look nothing like me and I can't relate to those characters on a physical basis.


How many fat or really skinny male characters do we see in videogames?

How many transgender people or siamese twins do we see in videogames? I can make this argument just about any possible sort of person.


This thing exists on both sides and both of them can excuse themselves by saying oh! such people do exist in real life, so any attempts to change them is body shaming!

In the case of Lara, it is definitely an issue, you cannot ignore that. Not everyone thinks this way, but a lot sure do. Just watch the idiotic YT comments to older TR videos...


But taken as a whole they all build a very very non-real lifelike universe. But then again, as you said, she always had largeish breasts, so they should not have changed this defining feature of hers.

Did you just contract everything you wrote prior to this? :eek:

That's the exactly the point the OP was making, lol.


I'd be totally down for something like that. My Skyrim character is essentially a black Lara.. :p

haha :D

Okay, you're just joking and I assume you got my point, based on that previous line you wrote, heh.


But that who be changing who/what Lara is - Changing her boobs doesn't have the same effect, her boobs aren't who she is, if you get what I mean?

Lara's personality is not defined by her boobs, no. And that is, ironically, exactly the point ;)


Because you can't use old Lara as an example when talking about new Lara.

Uhm, yes you can.

What you can't do is say "because Uncharted/TLOU/ did xyz, so should TR follow this route".

Comparing one TR game to another TR game is entirely fair game, in my opinion.


I mean does anyone here other than the OP even think that Lara is small chested? If you've played the game and i'm sure you have Driber since your name is in the credits at the end of it, you'd agree that Lara still has a chest on her.

I don't think TR9 Lara is flat chested, no. But that isn't the point, and I'm betting it wasn't the point of the OP, either.


You could find women with Lara's proportions in real life but I think the art style was meant to portray a cartoony stylized image of curvaceous woman not an actual real one.

I think you can only make that argument with the aforementioned early promotional material of classic Lara.

By the time Lara was going through the LAU era, her boobs were perfectly "normal" (I hate using that word in this discussion, for obvious reasons) and I can't believe anyone would seriously argue that they were "cartoonish".

I think it might be a good idea to separate the discussion about the stylized [I]face, eyes, mouth, etc. from her boobs for the sake of the discussion :)

Metalrocks
4th Feb 2014, 16:03
i think she was generally big breasted in the first games. yes, we have big breasted women out there (if they are real :p) and thats all fine but in games they sure are over the top at times. just look at the latest mortal kombat.
i have many female friends and they actually complained about laras breasts that she never could run around like that. now with the new one, they say now its more believable and suitable to her.

you certainly got some good points there. i personally think that the new lara still has big breasts but in a more proportioned way that suits her body size. if you look at sam, her breasts are far more smaller but it also suits her body type and that generally asian women have smaller breasts.

Driber
4th Feb 2014, 16:18
yes, we have big breasted women out there (if they are real :p)

I don't think that is very funny, TBH.


and thats all fine but in games they sure are over the top at times.

Exactly - at times ;)

And give me one good reason they couldn't or shouldn't be, at times.


just look at the latest mortal kombat.

You're using MK as example of "realism" here? :lol:


i have many female friends and they actually complained about laras breasts that she never could run around like that.

Non-fan women complaining about Lara's boobs? Stop the press!

:p


now with the new one, they say now its more believable and suitable to her.

Women preferring to see smaller breasts on other women really isn't any news, Metal. lol


if you look at sam, her breasts are far more smaller but it also suits her body type and that generally asian women have smaller breasts.

But Lara is not Asian, is she?

Yes, Asian women generally have small to medium sized breasts. But even if they didn't and if for the sake of argument Asian women were known for having a large chest, then people shouldn't mind if Sam was the exception to the rule and had small boobs because she is a new character ;)

Jurre
4th Feb 2014, 16:29
if you look at sam, her breasts are far more smaller but it also suits her body type and that generally asian women have smaller breasts.

Yeah it's good you bring up Sam: because that shows that inside Lara's world -just like in the real world- Lara's cupsize is bigger than usual. So what it says is: Lara has big breasts but it's not the norm: she is just bustier than usual women.

It's not like in the Team Ninja games (or now they're called Techmo Koei or whatever) were every woman has these triple H mutant boobs bouncing around based on physics that would make Isaac Newton eat his own wig. In that regard I do agree with the OP that Crystal Dynamics avoided turning it into a boob fest, where Sam and Reyes would also have big sizes, but I am happy that they didn't do that because I think it would be so childish and so much catering towards the lowest common denominator...

BridgetFisher
4th Feb 2014, 23:23
I also thought it was weird how they made her into a generic girl, that was my first impression when seeing the concept art of the new Lara Croft. In forums online, when it was released noone cared about it since it had no pop, no appeal, and didnt look like Lara Croft. From what I understand the devs who made the new game, hated the older games or something soap operish like that, so they did what they wanted to change it as much as possible to make it their own creation, but it turned out pretty bad. Maybe they can return to the classic style that everyone came to know and love as an icon. Not sure if they can pull it off but they have my support :)

Poor Adam Jensen and others get the worst of these people who always want to attack people because of their looks, poor Adam and his Augs, and Lara with her endowed chest T_T. Oddly both of those are the things that make them iconic :D

*I dont remember the new Lara's but ever being the focus of the camera, hmmmm. But it should be Lara is supposed to be a super woman, super smart, super sexy, super athletic, just take other random words and put super in front of them and thats Lara Croft, not a generic cookie cutter looking character which is what they ended up with. If I recall they even trashed her sophisticated voice giving her one that sounds like it smoked 2 packs a day with a shot of whiskey or something.

Driber
4th Feb 2014, 23:43
BridgetFisher, I probably didn't see the discussions you're referring to, but I'm willing to bet that you've been lied to. I seriously doubt the devs ever said that they hated the old games. That sounds to me more something that some bitter fans would make up :whistle:

Good point about Lara's boobs being iconic, though. I do think that's indeed another reason why some people dislike the (radical) change - it was as much part of Lara as her braid, dual guns and backpack. It made Lara stand out, there's no denying that :)

Murphdawg1
4th Feb 2014, 23:56
BridgetFisher, I probably didn't see the discussions you're referring to, but I'm willing to bet that you've been lied to. I seriously doubt the devs ever said that they hated the old games. That sounds to me more something that some bitter fans would make up :whistle:

Good point about Lara's boobs being iconic, though. I do think that's indeed another reason why some people dislike the (radical) change - it was as much part of Lara as her braid, dual guns and backpack. It made Lara stand out, there's no denying that :)

Again though she's not small or lacking anything in that area and to be honest I think reboot Lara looks far better all around than any previous iteration of Lara.

CakeLuv
5th Feb 2014, 00:04
Her boobs are big to me :o but nice big xD

BridgetFisher
5th Feb 2014, 00:05
BridgetFisher, I probably didn't see the discussions you're referring to, but I'm willing to bet that you've been lied to. I seriously doubt the devs ever said that they hated the old games. That sounds to me more something that some bitter fans would make up :whistle:

Good point about Lara's boobs being iconic, though. I do think that's indeed another reason why some people dislike the (radical) change - it was as much part of Lara as her braid, dual guns and backpack. It made Lara stand out, there's no denying that :)

I noticed alot of people were mad about the missing braid, haha. Any change will cause that kind of response, maybe like it shoulda been a small change. Whenever things change too much it seems bad in anything. Goes against that whole if it aint broke dont fix it idea. I think most of the people upset over her endowed chest was over a very outspoken minority which is always louder, as can be seen in any political system.

* I thought and still think like most people new lara is boring and forgettable looking, just like if they took Duke Nukem and made him into a regular looking guy, scrawny or fat, take your pick, he would also end up lost to the same fate. Or why not take the hitman guy and give him hair, tone him down to make him more normal looking modeling his character on Shia Labeouf.

I dont think it matters if people like it or hated her past braid, boobs, looks, etc. I just reference the appeal of her as a gaming icon and legend meaning all those things people loved and hated made her famous. Even people who didnt like her looks would send emails, start discussions online, start petitions, all over a video game character, now that is pretty epic.

Rai
5th Feb 2014, 00:30
@BridgetFisher, Wait a minute, where did you get the idea that CD hate Tomb Raider so much that's why they changed it? You don't like the new game, fair enough, but it seems like your trying to say they made the game so bad on purpose or something. It's clear they're passionate about TR and it's fair enough, imo that they want to make it theirs instead of forever being in someone else's shadow. They're just trying to evolve it to suit modern gaming standards.

To actually address the topic. When CD redesigned Lara for the reboot, I doubt they changed her bust size as they felt her large breasts were objectionable or naughty/wrong in some way. Yes, they're trying to make Lara relate-able, but as a package, not just her breasts. Her bust size now is more in line with her frame, her body shape, which is athletic. Her breasts are still above average in size, but more in proportion to her size overall. No one is saying big breasts are wrong or unrealistic. Sure, they could have kept her bra cup size a DD or whatever it was, but maybe they felt it didn't seem right on this athletic frame? And when they say they want Lara to be relate-able, reducing her bra size isn't it. They mean in her personality, her vulnerabilities as a person. I don't see reducing her bra size as misguided or wrong or offensive. Yes, it is a design choice, one that fits how they view their new Lara: Athletic, an everyday girl with an achievable look. I doubt they looked too deeply into if her boobs should be a C cup or a DD cup, but they just wanted a natural look that fits with what they see as an athletic body. And, no, I'm not saying large breast are unnatural. Just that CD's design choice is different to Core's.

I have seen interviews from Core where they have admitted that Lara was built to be a exaggerated version of a woman. So she was never meant to be realistic before. She had big breasts and a waist that didn't look like it could support them, especially considering what she did. Lara was a caricature. Part of that may have been down to the graphics, which were cartoony in style. Core designed her one way and CD attempted to keep that at first, but with graphics allowing for ever more realism in the environments, Lara's extremely thin waist coupled with almost gravity defying breasts just kind of looked out of place, especially as they were apparently trying to also make her more human. Real women do have large breasts, but combine it with a tiny waist and it looks like her frame wouldn't be able to cope with that weight and it does look unrealistic that Lara would be able to do half the stuff she does with that body.

And let's be honest here. Lara's image, her out of the game image that is, outside of the fan-base (so, people who had heard of her, but not played the games) was pretty much based on her huge boobs..."Lara Croft? Oh the chick with the boobs, lol" kind of attitude, which is all wrong. The fans knew that Lara was so much more than that, so it's fair enough that there was some objection to this attitude. Lara shouldn't be judged on her chest alone, right? As a result (partially), TR wasn't taken seriously. It's possible that CD are attempting to take away that misconception about the character, and part of that is reducing her bust size a little.

larafan25
5th Feb 2014, 00:57
Murph, how is "different universe" negating his points?

If the devs made Lara a black women who was born in America and talks like Gozell for the reboot, would you also be saying "but it's a different universe now, so just accept it"?

Well now my hopes have been raised. :(

Rai
5th Feb 2014, 01:18
^Don't you mean dashed? I mean with that sad face.

Metalrocks
5th Feb 2014, 02:45
@driber
i think you misunderstood part of my comment.

i was simply quoting what my female friends said. nothing more.

and no, i dint bring MK to compare to realism. just an example how women are portrait in games.

also i never said lara is asian, now did i? ;)
lol, yeah, if asian women would have big breasts then i woundt bring up sam.

Jurre
5th Feb 2014, 08:45
@Rai: (post #23): spot on. My thoughts exactly.

Driber
5th Feb 2014, 10:11
Again though she's not small or lacking anything in that area and to be honest I think reboot Lara looks far better all around than any previous iteration of Lara.

And again, I do not share the OP's opinion that TR9 Lara is flat chested.

In the post you quoted I was merely agreeing on the good point the poster was making about Lara's boobs being iconic and how that is undoubtedly a major factor in people's dislike for the breast reduction. I think that just makes sense.

The funny thing is that this whole topic is incredibly hypocritical, because CD is much praised for the breast reduction (not saying there's anything wrong with that, mind you) but if Lara would have been originally created with a set of small/moderate boobs and for the reboot they would've been increased (let's say, to as big as they were in the LAU games) then the videogame world be freaking alight and CD would be accused of sexism, promoting plastic surgery and all that crap.

And no amount of "reboot mantra" from the fans would be able to combat that :whistle:


Well now my hopes have been raised. :(

lol, sorry, I just sought a quick extreme example to make my point. No offense to Gozell fans :)


@driber
i think you misunderstood part of my comment.

What did I misunderstand? :scratch:


i was simply quoting what my female friends said. nothing more.

Well, you made it a point to include the fact that they were female, so I was retorting that that's what women tend to do :p

(Disclaimer: no, not all women.)

You could have just said "my friends think..."


and no, i dint bring MK to compare to realism. just an example how women are portrait in games.

Heh, I wasn't entirely serious.

Still, kind of an extreme example, though. Might as well have used DoA Beach Ball to portray how women are portrayed, or Leisure Suit Larry :p


also i never said lara is asian, now did i? ;)
lol, yeah, if asian women would have big breasts then i woundt bring up sam.

I know you didn't, and I didn't say you did ;)

Well, I guess you missed the point that the Sam comparison doesn't work for me.

BTW, you said "you" made some good points. Were you referring to the OP? What good points do you think he made? You weren't specific :)

CakeLuv
5th Feb 2014, 12:58
We should focus on the gameplay tbh, I mean just look at how shallow our threads have become, even the devs are just making a whole new edition focusing into making everything prettier instead of making it more functional.

Jurre
5th Feb 2014, 13:05
It's not shallow: boobs are not the enemy :)

No seriously, what the main character looks like is one of the most important things there is in a videogame, so it's perfectly fine to discuss it.

CakeLuv
5th Feb 2014, 13:07
We've been discussing the same things sice 2011 lol.

pirate1802
5th Feb 2014, 13:23
even the devs are just making a whole new edition focusing into making everything prettier instead of making it more functional.

Its a tough situation for them. If they add more functionality to the new DE, people on other consoles are gonna feel left out, so their scope was limited with what they can add.


No seriously, what the main character looks like is one of the most important things there is in a videogame, so it's perfectly fine to discuss it.

:thumb:

I wouldnt be able to take a character seriously if he was ridiculously caricatured while surrounded by otherwise realistic surroundings. Hence I'd not care much about his/her fate or story. (not saying she looked ridiculous before, just using a hyperbole to get a point across. That how a character looks does matter, maybe not to everyone but some of us plebs for sure.)

CakeLuv
5th Feb 2014, 13:33
I'm not saying "To hell with Lara, make this a FPS!" I'm just saying that while we talk about this kind of stuff we are forgetting some other important things, like her animations and how bizarre it looks when she jumps and stuff.

Jurre
5th Feb 2014, 13:38
Well, it's not like this board is running out of webspace... You can discuss all of that in another thread to your hearts content. :)

CakeLuv
5th Feb 2014, 13:45
Discuss with who? :p eveyone's busy talking about average asian women's boobs.

Thetford
5th Feb 2014, 13:59
To be honest, I wouldn't have noticed Lara had smaller girls if no one pointed it out. I think her clothing, hair and pistols screams "Lara" more than her chest does. If you look at all the cosplays, you can instantly see Lara, even if they don't stuff their bras with chicken fillets (heck, even when a man puts on that clothing and pistol combo, it screams Lara).

On a similar note, I wouldn't use any of the pre AoD games as a judgement of scale, as there tends to be no scale at all. Lara is tiny compared to most enemies, not to mention, a lot of furniture dwarfs her (if I recall, chairs in TRII are roughly abdomen height on Lara, and she has to clime into her own bed), she can jump on the spot to reach something roughly double her height.

Rai
5th Feb 2014, 14:13
Discuss with who? :p eveyone's busy talking about average asian women's boobs.

People don't stick in one thread you know :p. If you have a topic that isn't being discussed already, and people have something to say, people will go over to that thread.

@Thetford, exactly. Whilst Lara's bust has always been on the large side and partially made her recognisable, there are other aspects of her design that also add to the overall look, that is recognisably Lara.

Metalrocks
5th Feb 2014, 14:20
@driber
i have listed the parts that gave me the impression you misunderstood me like the MK comparison ;)
lol, i forgot about DoA beach. maybe because that game is not available on pc so i dint think of it straight away. :lol:
but yeah, you know anyway what i was implying with it.

if i would have said "my friends" and the majority here knows im male, would think about other male friends. thats why i wanted to make it clear im talking about females.

and yes, i was referring to the OP with my remark "good points". thought it would be clear since i dint mention anyone else directly since i commented to the topic few line earlier in my previous post.

@topic
pretty much what theford said;
to me also lara wasnt known for her DDs. her two pistols, clothing are indications that its lara im looking at. yes, as a guy you look one way or another at the breasts :whistle: but still not what defines lara as such.

and since you mention that she is small, she kind of looks like that. every time i look at the pistol in her holster or even when she is holding it, it looks like its over sized, that she hardly can get her hands around it.

CakeLuv
5th Feb 2014, 14:36
Lara had smaller girls

:lol:

Psycho_Kenshin
5th Feb 2014, 15:55
And again, I do not share the OP's opinion that TR9 Lara is flat chested.
----
The funny thing is that this whole topic is incredibly hypocritical, because CD is much praised for the breast reduction (not saying there's anything wrong with that, mind you) but if Lara would have been originally created with a set of small/moderate boobs and for the reboot they would've been increased (let's say, to as big as they were in the LAU games) then the videogame world be freaking alight and CD would be accused of sexism, promoting plastic surgery and all that crap.
I never said she's flat chested in this game. But Crystal Dynamics themselves have acknowledged that they chose to make her less busty, and recently even less busty again. And that this was their marketing idea to get Lara taken more seriously is completely wrongheaded and repugnant when you think about it.

Like you mentioned after and in other posts, we see eye to eye on so many of these issues. How it is hypocritical, misguided, and prejudiced to have these "big boobs are bad" notions. And how any of these kneejerk reactions against someone happening to have big breasts in a fictional work are completely misguided.



Poor Adam Jensen and others get the worst of these people who always want to attack people because of their looks, poor Adam and his Augs, and Lara with her endowed chest T_T.
Well said. :)

CakeLuv
5th Feb 2014, 16:16
I think they tried that to change a little the reasons people bought TR? So it would bring another kind of gamers? Idk, but calling it repugnant is rather too... Extreme?

Psycho_Kenshin
5th Feb 2014, 16:24
I think they tried that to change a little the reasons people bought TR? So it would bring another kind of gamers? Idk, but calling it repugnant is rather too... Extreme?
Since I've mentioned how it is a prejudice against women with a body type considered "abnormal" by some, or considered "sexualized" compared to other body types of women, and neither of these ideas are okay, you might see why I consider it repugnant.

As mentioned this reminds me too much of what I've read from actresses who are very big breasted and can't get certain roles because of it, people don't give it much attention but there really is an issue there.

As for bringing in other kind of gamers, why would it be okay for some gamers to have something against women who have big breasts? It's just the human body, it comes in many shapes and sizes, and that one particular aspect of it is vilified by some is so wrong.

CakeLuv
5th Feb 2014, 16:28
Since I've mentioned how it is a prejudice against women with a body type considered "abnormal" by some, or considered "sexualized" compared to other body types of women, and neither of these ideas are okay, you might see why I consider it repugnant.

As mentioned this reminds me too much of what I've read from actresses who are very big breasted and can't get certain roles because of it, people don't give it much attention but there really is an issue there.

You're overthinking it, they wanted to change Lara's body to change the main attractive of the games, they never said women with big breasts are abnormal, they are different devs than the ones from the classic ones, and they just have a different perspective of how Lara should look like.

pirate1802
5th Feb 2014, 16:39
Guise, they have reduced the size of Lara's girls obviously because she is younger. I'm sure they'll grow back to their former glory in the sequels. Don't worry.

Rai
5th Feb 2014, 17:02
Guise, they have reduced the size of Lara's girls obviously because she is younger. I'm sure they'll grow back to their former glory in the sequels. Don't worry.

She's 21, highly unlikely she'll grow any more. It's not offensive for her to have large breasts and it's not offensive to reduce them a cup size or so.

CakeLuv
5th Feb 2014, 17:07
They are big enough imo, if she had bigger breasts it would still be okay, i don't see the problem...

Jurre
5th Feb 2014, 17:22
Psycho_Kenshin: why are you being so hotheaded about this? Have you been watching a video by Anita Sarkeesian or something? That would piss anyone with half a brain off, but that's no reason to vent it here...

pirate1802
5th Feb 2014, 17:41
She's 21, highly unlikely she'll grow any more. It's not offensive for her to have large breasts and it's not offensive to reduce them a cup size or so.

My attempt at sarcasm failed miserably :(

Psycho_Kenshin
5th Feb 2014, 17:53
It's not shallow: boobs are not the enemy :)

No seriously, what the main character looks like is one of the most important things there is in a videogame, so it's perfectly fine to discuss it.


Psycho_Kenshin: why are you being so hotheaded about this? Have you been watching a video by Anita Sarkeesian or something? That would piss anyone with half a brain off, but that's no reason to vent it here...
Like you said, boobs are not the enemy, there is so much genuine ignorance on the subject and yes prejudice against physical traits of actual people. It's fine to discuss it as you mentioned, and I think it's fine to have a serious opinion about these topics as well.

CakeLuv
5th Feb 2014, 17:55
My attempt at sarcasm failed miserably :(

Indeed :lol:

Jurre
5th Feb 2014, 18:25
My attempt at sarcasm failed miserably :(I got it :)


Like you said, boobs are not the enemy, there is so much genuine ignorance on the subject and yes prejudice against physical traits of actual people. It's fine to discuss it as you mentioned, and I think it's fine to have a serious opinion about these topics as well.

If you read my post more carefully you'll see that I was questioning your zeal, not saying that we can't talk about this. Yeah, it is good to discuss this, but you're not doing much discussion: you're coming here on this board with a long rant, thanking everyone that agrees with you and then ignore the counterarguments.

I think you're here trying to get support for your crusade, but as you can see most people here like Lara's C-cups so you may as well resign to the fact that your opinion is not shared by the majority... Like I have to accept that the majority here doesn't share my wish for having a Tomb Raider game on a table mountain full of dinosaurs... :)

Rai
5th Feb 2014, 18:37
My attempt at sarcasm failed miserably :(

Aww sorry :friends:. but you didn't say it in Lara's voice, how was I supposed to know....:(


:rasp:

CakeLuv
5th Feb 2014, 18:47
I got it :)



If you read my post more carefully you'll see that I was questioning your zeal, not saying that we can't talk about this. Yeah, it is good to discuss this, but you're not doing much discussion: you're coming here on this board with a long rant, thanking everyone that agrees with you and then ignore the counterarguments.

I think you're here trying to get support for your crusade, but as you can see most people here like Lara's C-cups so you may as well resign to the fact that your opinion is not shared by the majority... Like I have to accept that the majority here doesn't share my wish for having a Tomb Raider game on a table mountain full of dinosaurs... :)

Slay pappa +1

Psycho_Kenshin
5th Feb 2014, 18:50
but as you can see most people here like Lara's C-cups so you may as well resign to the fact that your opinion is not shared by the majority...

For one thing, I also "like" Lara's C-cups. This has never been about what is "sexy", never been about personal taste in beauty. This is about changing a character unnecessarily for poor reasons, and how the "big boobs are bad" mentality needs to stop.

If you want many many posts of me replying to tons of people who disagree on this, as some have mentioned its on the other Tomb Raider Forums site. In this topic oddly enough right from the beginning Driber is saying pretty much everything I wanted to say, so I didn't feel I needed to reply to everyone who disagrees with me over here. I'd just be repeating much of what he said.

It looks like you're into the style of topic where the OP defends their opinion to every other poster. That's like a marathon. In a nutshell, whether you agree with me or not, it gets messy when we try to analyze other posters. It works best when we just discuss the topic itself.

CakeLuv
5th Feb 2014, 19:00
This has never been about what is "sexy".

Nobody ever suggested that it was. :scratch:

Psycho_Kenshin
5th Feb 2014, 19:03
Nobody ever suggested that it was. :scratch:
He said that most "liked" Lara's C-cups. For the male posters here at least or any poster attracted to women, what exactly determines what we "like" there? No matter what he means by liking Lara's breasts, my point is that this has never been about "preferring" larger breasts or something. Not that there's anything wrong with finding a character attractive.

I just think this character continuing to be notably busty and still taken seriously would very much be a positive thing. And there are women who have said the same thing.

It's unfortunate that there are so many hang-ups and prejudices on this subject, where some just don't want to see busty characters. Which is of course strange when we stop and compare this to the real world, where there are people of all shapes and sizes, where more busty people are not more "sexualized" or something than other people.

Jurre
5th Feb 2014, 19:25
Slay pappa +1
Does that also include that you're not supporting my dinosaurs on a mountain idea? :D


For one thing, I also "like" Lara's C-cups. This has never been about what is "sexy", never been about personal taste in beauty. This is about changing a character unnecessarily for poor reasons, and how the "big boobs are bad" mentality needs to stop.
War needs to stop, pollution needs to stop, racism needs to stop, and the boobs mentality too... If you think you can make the world change... more power to you but I have long since accepted the fact that people are always going to be themselves and there is nothing I can do about it...

And in any way, I have argued that Crystal Dynamics' reason for giving Lara C-cups is not the so called boob-mentality, but an assessment of what the majority of people would like. And they have succeeded gloriously in that regard: the proof is in the wishlist topic:

Bigger boobs: 7 votes.
Keep her looks as they are: 96 votes.


If you want many many posts of me replying to tons of people who disagree on this, as some have mentioned its on the other Tomb Raider Forums site. In this topic oddly enough right from the beginning Driber is saying pretty much everything I wanted to say, so I didn't feel I needed to reply to everyone who disagrees with me over here. I'd just be repeating much of what he said.That is not how things work here, my dear fellow. You're talking to me, on this board. I am not going to another board or talk to any of your associates.


It looks like you're into the style of topic where the OP defends their opinion to every other poster. That's like a marathon. In a nutshell, whether you agree with me or not, it gets messy when we try to analyze other posters. It works best when we just discuss the topic itself. If there is a need to defend yourself from everybody else, then again: you might as well accept that your opinion is not shared by the majority.

CakeLuv
5th Feb 2014, 19:35
He said that most "liked" Lara's C-cups. For the male posters here at least or any poster attracted to women, what exactly determines what we "like" there?

I'm done. lol

Driber
5th Feb 2014, 20:22
We've been discussing the same things sice 2011 lol.

Correction - since 1996 :D


Discuss with who? :p eveyone's busy talking about average asian women's boobs.

So create new threads on topics you would like to discuss!


If you look at all the cosplays, you can instantly see Lara, even if they don't stuff their bras with chicken fillets (heck, even when a man puts on that clothing and pistol combo, it screams Lara).

You got that right!

http://driber.net/extras/os/dressup.jpg

:D


On a similar note, I wouldn't use any of the pre AoD games as a judgement of scale, as there tends to be no scale at all. Lara is tiny compared to most enemies, not to mention, a lot of furniture dwarfs her (if I recall, chairs in TRII are roughly abdomen height on Lara, and she has to clime into her own bed), she can jump on the spot to reach something roughly double her height.

So if not pre-AoD games, why is it okay to compare TR9 to post-AoD games, like Legend, Anni, and Underworld?


[COLOR="Lime"]and yes, i was referring to the OP with my remark "good points". thought it would be clear since i dint mention anyone else directly since i commented to the topic few line earlier in my previous post.

You still didn't answer my question. I asked what good points do you think the OP made?

Driber
5th Feb 2014, 20:49
I never said she's flat chested in this game. But Crystal Dynamics themselves have acknowledged that they chose to make her less busty, and recently even less busty again. And that this was their marketing idea to get Lara taken more seriously is completely wrongheaded and repugnant when you think about it.

Like you mentioned after and in other posts, we see eye to eye on so many of these issues. How it is hypocritical, misguided, and prejudiced to have these "big boobs are bad" notions. And how any of these kneejerk reactions against someone happening to have big breasts in a fictional work are completely misguided.

Yes, all the things you write in this second paragraph I agree with and I do certainly think that there's a lot of OTT politically correctness going on in general. I really wish people would just stop telling other people how they should look, for whatever reason.

However, I cannot agree with you on the marketing thing without first seeing some actual proof of this. Making blind assumption about why CD did xyz would be a knee-jerk reaction, too.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe CD has made any statements about Lara's chest size reduction in TR9.


Guise, they have reduced the size of Lara's girls obviously because she is younger. I'm sure they'll grow back to their former glory in the sequels. Don't worry.

We already discussed that theory in the Lara's Looks thread; TR9 Lara is at an age where she would already have the size breasts she would have at age 30 and age 40.


She's 21, highly unlikely she'll grow any more. It's not offensive for her to have large breasts and it's not offensive to reduce them a cup size or so.

Would you find it offensive if in TR10 she suddenly has 2 sizes bigger boobs? How about 3 sizes? Or 4?


Psycho_Kenshin: why are you being so hotheaded about this? Have you been watching a video by Anita Sarkeesian or something? That would piss anyone with half a brain off, but that's no reason to vent it here...

That wasn't a very nice thing to say, Jurre.

CakeLuv
5th Feb 2014, 21:01
So create new threads on topics you would like to discuss

They already exist but everyone ditched them for boobs. :p

Rai
5th Feb 2014, 21:15
^I wouldn't worry, Eros, it'll pass.....eventually. Maybe when we get some actual info on TR10, and then it'll start all over again.




Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe CD has made any statements about Lara's chest size reduction in TR9.

I don't think they have either. They have talked about Lara being relateable, but as I stated earlier, I think that was meant overall, including her personality and vulnerability, and I think they mentioned her having an athletic body. This was before the game released, so I may be remembering wrong and it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack trying to find a link.


Would you find it offensive if in TR10 she suddenly has 2 sizes bigger boobs? How about 3 sizes? Or 4?



Like ths you mean?: http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3100/trularabythesea2.jpg

I wouldn't be offended, though I'd wonder why. This here is what someone believes is returning Lara to her original busty self. Kinda back breaking if you ask me :p.

Driber
5th Feb 2014, 21:18
I just think this character continuing to be notably busty and still taken seriously would very much be a positive thing. And there are women who have said the same thing.

Can you link to or quote these women you claim have said this?

I want to know where these women are hiding, lol.


It's unfortunate that there are so many hang-ups and prejudices on this subject, where some just don't want to see busty characters. Which is of course strange when we stop and compare this to the real world, where there are people of all shapes and sizes, where more busty people are not more "sexualized" or something than other people.

You might want to check this thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=126757&page=2), where we're having a little side discussion on the common misconception that objectification = sexism. I think this nicely ties in with the whole hang-ups on big breasts topic.


War needs to stop, pollution needs to stop, racism needs to stop, and the boobs mentality too... If you think you can make the world change... more power to you but I have long since accepted the fact that people are always going to be themselves and there is nothing I can do about it...

Okay, so you've given up. I don't think there is any need to push your pessimism onto others.

I myself am all up for engaging dialog with people and I commend the OP for doing so, especially in light of the fact that he has a lot of people against him on the subject, which I can bet could feel daunting.

If we all think like you, then surely nothing will ever change. No offense.


And in any way, I have argued that Crystal Dynamics' reason for giving Lara C-cups is not the so called boob-mentality, but an assessment of what the majority of people would like. And they have succeeded gloriously in that regard: the proof is in the wishlist topic:

Bigger boobs: 7 votes.
Keep her looks as they are: 96 votes.

That doesn't prove your theory at all. In fact, I could argue that is disproves your theory and that most of the people who voted for "keeping her looks as they are" were people who didn't like Lara's big breasts in the first place and jumped on board with the franchise only after CD reduced Lara's breasts, slapped some pants onto her to cover up those legs and tummy that people didn't like to see because it's "sexist" and all that BS body shaming.


That is not how things work here, my dear fellow. You're talking to me, on this board. I am not going to another board or talk to any of your associates.

You ignored his point that he didn't feel the need to retort because in his opinion I already did so and that doing so would be just a repeat of what I already said.

I know you're playing this whole "I'm not directly replying to Driber because I don't like him" game, and that's fine with me, but should now also other people be dragged into your personal issues and do you demand people to restate points just so you can continue to avoid having to reply to me? Isn't that a bit childish and unnecessary?

Psycho_Kenshin
5th Feb 2014, 21:33
Can you link to or quote these women you claim have said this?
Sure, one example is comic artist Holly Golightly. She talks about how people judge you for your looks and how she got made fun of and whatnot for her breasts, and how having very busty characters in her comic and still having that be treated seriously and kicking ass is a positive message, stuff like that. There's an episode of a podcast called Hexcast where she and her husband Jim Balent talk about this stuff. Another is artist/writer Amanda Conner, known for being the artist to really draw Power Girl as super busty, more so than any DC or Mavel character pretty much. She's talked about how this is a positive having her kickass with a body type many scoff at.

And I've seen a couple actresses talk about this issue in general though not in regards to illustrated characters, and I've seen various female posters post these opinions over the years once in a while. Not that this is a big deal, was just trying to point out this isn't all about male's being attracted to the character, it's more about the body shame issues you mentioned.

On the topic of where CD has mentioned this, at least for Legend they did talk about how they were reducing Lara from "DD to a C or so", there's an interview or two. And in general it rubs me the wrong way, since they were blatantly conceding to the wrong idea that big breasts are automatically controversial. As for the 2013 game, I do remember it coming up in an article or two, not sure if CD themselves commented.

And again, very well said, you cover a lot in these posts.

Driber
5th Feb 2014, 21:40
They already exist but everyone ditched them for boobs. :p

Heh, like Rai said - it'll blow over.

Right now the Lara's looks in TRDE is a hot topic because the game just launched. Eventually the discussion will die out. Look at the main "Lara's Looks" thread with thousands of posts - there hasn't been a new one in many months.

Okay, granted, the boob discussed flared up again because of this thread, lol, but also this will die out again.



...only to resurface later :D


I don't think they have either. They have talked about Lara being relateable, but as I stated earlier, I think that was meant overall, including her personality and vulnerability, and I think they mentioned her having an athletic body. This was before the game released, so I may be remembering wrong and it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack trying to find a link.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I remember it, too.

I don't rule out the possibility the OP claims, but I think a good rule of thumb is to always give the devs the benefit of the doubt until actual proof presents itself :cool:


Like ths you mean?: http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3100/trularabythesea2.jpg

LMAO :lol:

Okay, I know exactly where that image is coming from. We've had a thread about it on the forum here some years ago. It's a game mod created by someone who has the (IMO) extreme opinion that the aforementioned classic Lara early promotional art is Lara's "true form" and he believes that is even more important than how classic Lara actually looked like in-game.

I totally distance myself from that POV.


I wouldn't be offended, though I'd wonder why. This here is what someone believes is returning Lara to her original busty self. Kinda back breaking if you ask me :p.

Okay, so putting aside that extreme example (:p), how would you feel if the devs changed Lara's boobs back to the size they were in the LAU games, for example?

Psycho_Kenshin
5th Feb 2014, 22:22
Anyways, a couple of the main criticisms I see logic wise for Lara having big breasts is the idea that it looks unrealistic or disproportionate, or that it'd be difficult for her to be capable with big breasts as an athlete. For the latter, I point out that there are famous athletes once in a while who have big breasts, and in general plenty of very busty women have an active lifestyle. Plus since Lara does incredibly impossible athletic feats in this game, it'd be odd for a couple cup sizes to stop your suspension of disbelief.

And as mentioned, since there are slim women who happen to have breasts of any size, it's not unrealistic, and disproportionate is an abstract idea.

So anyways, ha this might be considered odd but what the hey, here's a couple Lara Croft cosplayers showing that this isn't an unrealistic look.

http://laracroftcosplay.com/images/tombraidercosplay3/683526.jpg http://laracroftcosplay.com/images/tombraidercosplay3/631475.jpg

http://laracroftcosplay.com/images/may2013/aleena/original_lara_cosplay_by_pbbunnybear-d4wnefc.jpg

http://laracroftcosplay.com/images/may2013/aleena/lara_legend_dress_wallpaper_by_pbbunnybear-d4wncxf.jpg

CakeLuv
5th Feb 2014, 22:24
I wanna see them climbing and running without getting a black eye. :D

Psycho_Kenshin
5th Feb 2014, 22:29
I wanna see them climbing and running without getting a black eye. :D
I know I've pointed this out, but just making fun of busty women and joking that they can't do athletic things... it's obvious that this isn't correct, isn't it?

Driber
5th Feb 2014, 22:30
Your posts aren't helping to have a serious discussion about this, Eros :p

Rai
5th Feb 2014, 22:51
^Those cosplayers look great! But I think it is noticeable that their bust sizes are not disproportionate to the rest of their figures. They all have fuller wastes than Lara ever had. You only have to look at Legend Lara to see how skinny she looked in comparison. Look at models like Karima or Alison, they both represented LAU Lara and had slim figures with moderate busts. I'd say Karima had a bust size similar to Reboot Lara. To be fair though, those cosplayers are only posing.




Okay, so putting aside that extreme example (:p), how would you feel if the devs changed Lara's boobs back to the size they were in the LAU games, for example?

I'd wonder why they did it, but I wouldn't be offended or mind even. I've never been offended by Lara's bust. Why would I? I saw Lara as a strong willed, independent woman who went after what she wanted. Dress sense wise, she mostly dressed accordingly for the environment she was in. If CD decided to boost her bust back to a DD cup, then that's up to them, though it would depend on how they did it and like for TR9, CD don't go out of their way to make it an issue. I mean her breasts shouldn't be of any focus as Lara is more than a bra size. As long as she's still wearing practical clothing, and still recognisably Lara, then it's not a problem.

Psycho_Kenshin
5th Feb 2014, 22:58
^Those cosplayers look great! But I think it is noticeable that their bust sizes are not disproportionate to the rest of their figures. They all have fuller wastes than Lara ever had.
I could post pictures of models who are very slim with huge natural breasts, but that would probably be deemed questionable. :p But needless to say, it has happened many a time, and no bust size is disproportionate with a slim body. Less common perhaps, but people do come in all shapes and sizes.

And for the record, I wouldn't complain if Lara was a bit less slim than she's portrayed in the games so far. Her tiny waist has not changed much between Underworld and TR'13. Storing a little fat on the body can help her have energy to burn when she's trapped in a cave for days. That's my personal excuse as well. :D

Also for the record, that second cosplayer seems pretty slim to me.

http://laracroftcosplay.com/images/may2013/aleena/movie_lara_4_by_pbbunnybear-d4wne7x.jpg

Rai
5th Feb 2014, 23:12
^She is slim, and in that pic, her bust looks similar in size to reboot Lara's. Maybe it's the angle. In comparison to in game Lara (Core and CD before the reboot) she has a fuller, but still naturally slim waist.

CakeLuv
5th Feb 2014, 23:13
I know I've pointed this out, but just making fun of busty women and joking that they can't do athletic things... it's obvious that this isn't correct, isn't it?

Not with that clothing. :)

Psycho_Kenshin
5th Feb 2014, 23:13
^She is slim, and in that pic, her bust looks similar in size to reboot Lara's. Maybe it's the angle.
You've seen her breasts in the dress and whatnot, she is much more busty than Lara in Underworld even, for the record. I mean, you're not disputing that "slim and stacked" women exist I hope? They do indeed exist. It might be more rare for a very skinny woman to have very big breasts, but it does happen.

Rai
5th Feb 2014, 23:22
You've seen her breasts in the dress and whatnot, she is much more busty than Lara in Underworld even, for the record. I mean, you're not disputing that "slim and stacked" women exist I hope? They do indeed exist.

I'd say she looks about the same as LAU Lara. Did you see her in the gravity defying Japan dress (game Lara) or in the swimsuit? The cosplayers bust looks a lot less gravity defying imo. Lara looks like she used a whole roll of boob tape :p. Of course I'm not denying it, what gave you that idea? :scratch:

'Stacked'? She's not a pile of baby blocks!

Psycho_Kenshin
5th Feb 2014, 23:25
Of course I'm not denying it, what gave you that idea? :scratch:
Ha, well okay good. ;) And I think you're making these comparisons slightly more literal than mine. When I say I want Lara to still have big breasts in these games, I'm not saying they should go back to the stylized LAU look. So yes, I'd be perfectly good with her big breasts being slightly less "gravity defying", actually I think that'd be a good thing artistically. They don't need to point at the sky for my taste. :D

It is pretty funny that we're comparing how a person's breasts are fairing with gravity compared to a 2005 video game character model. But it's a funny conversation I'm happy to have!

Murphdawg1
5th Feb 2014, 23:39
Ha, well okay good. ;) And I think you're making these comparisons slightly more literal than mine. When I say I want Lara to still have big breasts in these games, I'm not saying they should go back to the stylized LAU look. So yes, I'd be perfectly good with her big breasts being slightly less "gravity defying", actually I think that'd be a good thing artistically. They don't need to point at the sky for my taste. :D

It is pretty funny that we're comparing how a person's breasts are fairing with gravity compared to a 2005 video game character model. But it's a funny conversation I'm happy to have!

She still does unless you consider a C or whatever she has to be "small" ?

Psycho_Kenshin
5th Feb 2014, 23:46
She still does unless you consider a C or whatever she has to be "small" ?
Crystal Dynamics themselves mentioned that they lowered her by several cup sizes. That's what we're discussing, I'm not saying C-cups are "small", but she is less busty than before, and with 2013 they did it again and really seem to be going out of their way to disassociate this character with notably big breasts. Which as I've mentioned I think is misguided and a bad move for various reasons.

And if the only adjectives available are "big" and "small", it makes it hard to describe A, B, C, D, DD, F, G, GG, GGG, J, JJ-cup etc with just those two words ha.

Maybe a better way to phrase is I think Lara should be as busty as before, at least as of say Underworld, while in this more realistic art style. I don't think her being less busty was necessary and it's odd to see a real body type catch such flack over the years, and all sorts of other topics and issues.

Rai
5th Feb 2014, 23:54
Might be my imagination, but I wouldn't say she was several cup sizes smaller. In fact, where her waist is fuller, her boobs just don't look as noticeable big. It should be noted that the team who said that* aren't necessarily the same team that made TR'13. I still think CD's design choice is just that, and nothing against her larger bust size or larger breasts overall. It's not fair to put words in their mouths.

It should also be noted that Toby Gard, Lara's original creator was also involved in Legend.

*was it the Legand team? I never saw any interviews where this was stated.

Murphdawg1
6th Feb 2014, 00:00
Crystal Dynamics themselves mentioned that they lowered her by several cup sizes. That's what we're discussing, I'm not saying C-cups are "small", but she is less busty than before, and with 2013 they did it again and really seem to be going out of their way to disassociate this character with notably big breasts. Which as I've mentioned I think is misguided and a bad move for various reasons.

And if the only adjectives available are "big" and "small", it makes it hard to describe A, B, C, D, DD, F, G, GG, GGG, J, JJ-cup etc with just those two words ha.

Maybe a better way to phrase is I think Lara should be as busty as before, at least as of say Underworld, while in this more realistic art style. I don't think her being less busty was necessary and it's odd to see a real body type catch such flack over the years, and all sorts of other topics and issues.

Who cares? She looks great and isn't that what matters. You're trying to associate older Lara's physical features with a rebooted Lara and it just doesn't work because this is a re-imagining of Lara. Isn't she also shorter than she's ever been? Where's your rant on Lara not being as tall as she used to be or are you fine with that change?

Psycho_Kenshin
6th Feb 2014, 00:01
*was it the Legand team? I never saw any interviews where this was stated.

Yep, here are some quotes from an article:

"In an attempt to appeal to more female players, the creators of computer game icon Lara Croft have revamped her image to remove one of her most prominent and remarked-upon features - her generous bust.
----
In the soon-to-be-released Tomb Raider: Legend, the eighth title to feature Croft, her DD-size bust has been reduced to a more modest C-cup and some of her more revealing outfits have been ditched, the report said."
----
"Lara's been on a diet and she's definitely gone down a cup size, but she's still quite well proportioned," Toby Gard, the original creator of the character, told the paper.

And speaking of that comparison pic, I think it really shows what I was saying in that Lara's proportions other than her bust didn't change much between Underworld and '13. She still has a tiny waist (just looser clothes), the same butt etc ha, but for some reason only breasts are "controversial" and they make them smaller.


Where's your rant on Lara not being as tall as she used to be or are you fine with that change?

Judging from that comparison pic, her height looks just about the same. She does hunch over more at times in this game though. And I think it's fair to say, short people aren't getting the same backlash controversy that busty people are getting in games etc. Undeserved backlash, needless to say.

Rai
6th Feb 2014, 00:06
----

In the soon-to-be-released Tomb Raider: Legend, the eighth title to feature Croft, her DD-size bust has been reduced to a more modest C-cup and some of her more revealing outfits have been ditched, the report said."

And yet these are the same people who put her in that Japan dress and the bikinis. Ookay.

Going by the comparison pic, Lara pre Aod did have a tiny waist though, and it accentuated her bust more. I think Pre AoD Lara was meant to be 5'9 and reboot Lara is 5'6.

BridgetFisher
6th Feb 2014, 02:55
Might be my imagination, but I wouldn't say she was several cup sizes smaller. In fact, where her waist is fuller, her boobs just don't look as noticeable big. It should be noted that the team who said that* aren't necessarily the same team that made TR'13. I still think CD's design choice is just that, and nothing against her larger bust size or larger breasts overall. It's not fair to put words in their mouths.

It should also be noted that Toby Gard, Lara's original creator was also involved in Legend.

*was it the Legand team? I never saw any interviews where this was stated.

Great timeline pic! Looks like alot of changes came along with graphical improvement until the new lara in TR2013 where the devs didnt like any of the past Lara's so went out of their way to reboot her in a new style. Im not sure she needed a reboot in appearance, but thats just opinion. Its fun seeing how lara has evolved through multiple generations of technology. My favorite lara game so far is Tomb Raider Anniversary. I really like the look of TRA with the headset peice, and TRL with the iconic classic look that made lara a legend. Or was that fixed in the DE? I mean I member playing the regular game and thinking her eyes looked weird and she sorta looked real pale for some reason.

Psycho_Kenshin
6th Feb 2014, 07:40
In fact, where her waist is fuller, her boobs just don't look as noticeable big.
----
I still think CD's design choice is just that, and nothing against her larger bust size or larger breasts overall. It's not fair to put words in their mouths.
Her waist is very similar in the latest two games I'd say, though covered and with looser clothing in '13. Her upper body in general is a touch wider, but the waist itself looks similar proportionally, just a small touch wider.

With the character model having pretty much the same body but with a slightly wider waist etc, why make her breasts smaller instead of also slightly bigger than before like her waist? If the idea is she's putting on some weight (still a very slim character). Or at least keeping them the same size as Underworld, though with the less tight clothing. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with tight clothing either.

And I do think them wanting Lara's breasts to be less noticeably big is a bad thing, and does tie into the vilifying of perfectly normal human body traits issue. She can kick ass while still having that feature, and should. And anyone with a kneejerk reaction against busty characters will be able to look past it and respect her character due to a respectful presentation and well done characterization.

CakeLuv
6th Feb 2014, 12:50
But you have to think of the different bras and stuff, Reboot Lara looked like she wasn't wearing any soo...


I really like the look of TRA with the headset peice, and TRL with the iconic classic look that made lara a legend.

e-e I think you're confused....


I really like the look of TRL with the headset peice, and TRA with the iconic classic look that made lara a legend.

Fixed (?)

Driber
6th Feb 2014, 14:06
That evolution image is not entirely accurate. Reboot Lara is smaller than the previous versions. I'm guessing the creator of that pic failed to account for that.

The drastic reduction in breast size is obvious, though. At least to me.


Yep, here are some quotes from an article:

"In an attempt to appeal to more female players, the creators of computer game icon Lara Croft have revamped her image to remove one of her most prominent and remarked-upon features - her generous bust.
----
In the soon-to-be-released Tomb Raider: Legend, the eighth title to feature Croft, her DD-size bust has been reduced to a more modest C-cup and some of her more revealing outfits have been ditched, the report said."
----
"Lara's been on a diet and she's definitely gone down a cup size, but she's still quite well proportioned," Toby Gard, the original creator of the character, told the paper.

You're quoting a news article, not direct statements from the devs. Except for that last bit from Toby. But that isn't saying anything about the reasons for changing her breasts whatsoever; just confirming that it has been changed.

The part that claims that the reduction was an attempt to attract more female players could simply be the personal opinion or interpretation of the article author.

CakeLuv
6th Feb 2014, 14:19
^Slaay.

Driber
6th Feb 2014, 14:40
Sure, one example is comic artist Holly Golightly. She talks about how people judge you for your looks and how she got made fun of and whatnot for her breasts, and how having very busty characters in her comic and still having that be treated seriously and kicking ass is a positive message, stuff like that. There's an episode of a podcast called Hexcast where she and her husband Jim Balent talk about this stuff. Another is artist/writer Amanda Conner, known for being the artist to really draw Power Girl as super busty, more so than any DC or Mavel character pretty much. She's talked about how this is a positive having her kickass with a body type many scoff at.

And I've seen a couple actresses talk about this issue in general though not in regards to illustrated characters, and I've seen various female posters post these opinions over the years once in a while. Not that this is a big deal, was just trying to point out this isn't all about male's being attracted to the character, it's more about the body shame issues you mentioned.

Thanks for the in-depth response. I'd like to read up / listen to those articles / podcasts. Do you have direct links where I can find them? :)


I'd wonder why they did it, but I wouldn't be offended or mind even. I've never been offended by Lara's bust. Why would I? I saw Lara as a strong willed, independent woman who went after what she wanted. Dress sense wise, she mostly dressed accordingly for the environment she was in. If CD decided to boost her bust back to a DD cup, then that's up to them, though it would depend on how they did it and like for TR9, CD don't go out of their way to make it an issue. I mean her breasts shouldn't be of any focus as Lara is more than a bra size. As long as she's still wearing practical clothing, and still recognisably Lara, then it's not a problem.

Yeah, I agree that if Lara's boobs will be bigger again in future games, to match the size she had in LAU at least, the best way to do it would to go about it as not a big issue (no pun intended :D).

Okay, so if I understand it correctly, the proportional thing would be your only concern in that case?

So let's say for example that a future iteration of Lara would have this kind of body:

http://driber.net/os/serena3.jpg

That would make it totally "realistic" for you? :)


And if the only adjectives available are "big" and "small", it makes it hard to describe A, B, C, D, DD, F, G, GG, GGG, J, JJ-cup etc with just those two words ha.

I am very much in favour of ditching the "small" and "big" adjectives in this particular debate. It only creates confusion, as one person may interpret "small" and/or "big" totally different than the next person.


Who cares? She looks great and isn't that what matters.

The OP obviously cares. Isn't that enough?


You're trying to associate older Lara's physical features with a rebooted Lara and it just doesn't work because this is a re-imagining of Lara.

As I said before, the "reboot mantra" has long since lost it's meaning, as people are using it for their own personal opinions left and right.

At this point, the reboot concept has more become a blank slate to ascribe whatever gripe onto. In forum debate terms, that is.

It's like how the word "spiritual" has completely lost its meaning.


But you have to think of the different bras and stuff, Reboot Lara looked like she wasn't wearing any soo...

Uhm, no. Reboot Lara wears a bra, lol. Without one, she would surely knock herself unconscious ;) :D


^Slaay.

I'm not slaying anyone :p

Just saying that his assumption about the devs' motivations are jumping the gun; I'm not discounting it as a possibility. And his main point is still valid, because even if the devs didn't think like this, we know for a fact that hordes of people still do. Case in point is the article on TRL the OP quoted.

CakeLuv
6th Feb 2014, 14:56
Quoting in Ipad is a nightmare.

K, that's why I said that it looked like it, but if you see TRU's boobs it looks like she's wearing push up bras while reboot lara's boobs are just there :3

Driber
6th Feb 2014, 18:50
^ http://driber.net/os/tr9/Concept%20Art/Lara%20Full%20Body.jpg

Zoom in to her chest to see the bra straps :)

CakeLuv
6th Feb 2014, 19:11
But that's the concept art c: now look for a in-game pic and it's just a white shirt or whatevs.

Rai
6th Feb 2014, 19:12
^That's not bra straps, that's the straps to the white top Lara wears under the grey one, the one we see quite clearly through the tears in the grey top. It could be a vest top with similar breast support, I suppose.

*dramatic Lara voice* Oh god! I never want to see that GIF again! Scarred for life :eek:

CakeLuv
6th Feb 2014, 19:24
What gif? xD

Driber
6th Feb 2014, 19:27
Gals, correct me if I'm wrong, but regular shirts and tops do not have adjustable bra straps, do they? :scratch:

CakeLuv
6th Feb 2014, 19:32
Some do.

Rai
6th Feb 2014, 19:35
Gals, correct me if I'm wrong, but regular shirts and tops do not have adjustable bra straps, do they? :scratch:

Some vest or cami tops do.


What gif? xD

I was searching for reboot Lara Croft in google images. Let's just say it's adult content and leave it there.

Woogiemush
6th Feb 2014, 20:23
I think it's a good choice that they reduced the size of Lara's breast. If she had the ones she had in Tomb Raider: Underworld, she'd have major back problems! :lol: Plus, her breasts are big enough on her tiny body.

CakeLuv
6th Feb 2014, 20:56
I was searching for reboot Lara Croft in google images. Let's just say it's adult content and leave it there.

Ugh, I googled "Lara croft CGI model" and that poop can't be unseen.

larafan25
6th Feb 2014, 22:38
I think I saw that gif. :vlol:

Rai
6th Feb 2014, 22:46
Okay, so if I understand it correctly, the proportional thing would be your only concern in that case?

So let's say for example that a future iteration of Lara would have this kind of body:

http://driber.net/os/serena3.jpg

That would make it totally "realistic" for you? :)


This woman clearly has an athletic body, and if CD thought that this athletic look suited Lara, then that's all good. I think athletic suits Lara. Maybe Core and later CD were aiming for athletic, but somehow her itsy waist just didn't seem to help convey that to me. Look at Legend Lara in a bikini (http://tf3dm.com/imgd/l81323-lara-croft-tomb-raider-legend-bikini-next-generation-93692.jpg), she looks really slim, and there's nothing wrong with that, but she hardly looked strong enough to cope with her lifestyle and I'm fairly certain her poor back would be strained. I just feel Reboot Lara's look is more athletic.

As a comparison again; TR2 Lara vs Reboot Lara: RLara's bust hardly looks smaller at all, perhaps a really good sport bra is holding her in a bit. In fact, if TR2 Lara's waist wasn't as teeny, her boobs wouldn't look as big as they do.

With regards to body image and breast sizes and how they're portrayed overall, then, sure, it is all kinds of wrong if people do see larger busted women somehow 'wrong' or repugnant and no woman should be discriminated for her bust size, be it a 32AA or 38FF. However, the OP is jumping to conclusions as to why Lara's breasts have had a bit of a reduction for the reboot. Actually, for Toby Gard to state that Legend Lara 'lost some weight' to explain why her boobs are slightly smaller, then this is offensive, imo. But the current team at CD haven't given a reason, and,it looks to me as if they've simply tried to give her that athletic figure....all over. As for being relateable, I can see why. Women with busts of a less than average size (I think a C cup is average in the UK) also have a hard time of it. Busts of above a C cup is meant to be more desirable and somehow winning the 'genetic lottery' than smaller breasts. It's also really hard to find sexy underwear in smaller cup sizes (tmi probably), in fact look all over the media and sexy is often classed as having a big bust, small waist, long legs, tan; pretty much what Core Lara was. So, in designing a female video game character, devs are in trouble as there's no real win win situation.

pirate1802
7th Feb 2014, 02:25
Which gif are people talking about? :O

Rai
7th Feb 2014, 02:37
Which gif are people talking about? :O

I wish I hadn't said anything now http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif. It's too adult to share here, I came across it accidentally after searching reboot Lara in google images. We really shouldn't derail the topic further.

Britney
7th Feb 2014, 03:43
This woman clearly has an athletic body, and if CD thought that this athletic look suited Lara, then that's all good. I think athletic suits Lara. Maybe Core and later CD were aiming for athletic, but somehow her itsy waist just didn't seem to help convey that to me. Look at Legend Lara in a bikini (http://tf3dm.com/imgd/l81323-lara-croft-tomb-raider-legend-bikini-next-generation-93692.jpg), she looks really slim, and there's nothing wrong with that, but she hardly looked strong enough to cope with her lifestyle and I'm fairly certain her poor back would be strained. I just feel Reboot Lara's look is more athletic.

As a comparison again; TR2 Lara vs Reboot Lara: RLara's bust hardly looks smaller at all, perhaps a really good sport bra is holding her in a bit. In fact, if TR2 Lara's waist wasn't as teeny, her boobs wouldn't look as big as they do.

With regards to body image and breast sizes and how they're portrayed overall, then, sure, it is all kinds of wrong if people do see larger busted women somehow 'wrong' or repugnant and no woman should be discriminated for her bust size, be it a 32AA or 38FF. However, the OP is jumping to conclusions as to why Lara's breasts have had a bit of a reduction for the reboot. Actually, for Toby Gard to state that Legend Lara 'lost some weight' to explain why her boobs are slightly smaller, then this is offensive, imo. But the current team at CD haven't given a reason, and,it looks to me as if they've simply tried to give her that athletic figure....all over. As for being relateable, I can see why. Women with busts of a less than average size (I think a C cup is average in the UK) also have a hard time of it. Busts of above a C cup is meant to be more desirable and somehow winning the 'genetic lottery' than smaller breasts. It's also really hard to find sexy underwear in smaller cup sizes (tmi probably), in fact look all over the media and sexy is often classed as having a big bust, small waist, long legs, tan; pretty much what Core Lara was. So, in designing a female video game character, devs are in trouble as there's no real win win situation.

To me it looks like she has the same bust size but without the super skinny waist. its her skinny waist that makes the breasts look bigger.

Psycho_Kenshin
7th Feb 2014, 05:07
Her breasts are noticeably smaller than they were before. It's easier to compare to the other Crystal Dynamics character models that are in a similar style. And her waist didn't change too too much between Underworld and '13. But if we are comparing directly to the lo-poly Core model there, Lara's boobs stick out at least 50% further in the old game. Her whole torso is much smaller in that game, if we're discounting that the comparison doesn't make any sense. It's not just her slim waist that makes her breasts big. And it's really clear when comparing Angel of Darkness to TR'13.

Also considering the technical limitations of in-game 3d models at the time, both the in-game and the more detailed cutscene and promotional images they put out of Lara are all valid. In those days the pre-rendered cutscenes were actually considered the definitive look of a character. Different art styles, but how she looked in Tomb Raider cutscenes also counts. And with all that in mind, she was notably busty before. And as others have mentioned, this was good since she was such a strong and badass empowered character we respect, fighting the stereotypes that ignorant people have applied to that body type.

And as mentioned, the devs themselves have acknowledged that they made them smaller. And it's too bad.


With regards to body image and breast sizes and how they're portrayed overall, then, sure, it is all kinds of wrong if people do see larger busted women somehow 'wrong' or repugnant and no woman should be discriminated for her bust size, be it a 32AA or 38FF. However, the OP is jumping to conclusions as to why Lara's breasts have had a bit of a reduction for the reboot. Actually, for Toby Gard to state that Legend Lara 'lost some weight' to explain why her boobs are slightly smaller, then this is offensive, imo. But the current team at CD haven't given a reason
Like you mentioned, this stuff was said during this Crystal Dynamics era for Legend, even if not said more recently. They have in the past reduced her breasts for misguided image and marketing reasons, they don't have to keep explicitly stating it. Even if they were silent, we can still find what they're doing to be an unfortunate choice.

And very much agreed on the point you made above, that we keep hearing these wrongheaded prejudices vilifying body features as normal as any other is always disheartening. All sorts of casual dismissal and insulting of busty women in this topic, posts saying Lara couldn't be active with her Underworld proportions, all sorts of very wrong stuff that we see over and over.

Rai
7th Feb 2014, 12:04
^So what was said by one or two members of CD eight years ago still applies to CD as a team now? Sorry, but while it's clear that the old team's reasoning was flawed, it's also flawed to judge a different team for something they haven't said. Truth is we don't know why CD changed Lara's bust size this time, and not even by that much.

Brian Horton, senior art director at Crystal, the man who designed Lara for the reboot has gone on record as saying he looked at many different women for ideas. That could be just for her face or it could apply to her body as well, but we know he likes to use real women as a guide. One artwork he did used Meagan Marie herself as model and guide. Lara Croft is meant to be a representative of an average young woman, who goes through extraordinary things and comes out as stronger. That's mentally, but physically she was meant to show how she can take damage (realism) and battle scared. Perhaps, but not definite as we don't know for sure, but a reference he was going by was 'average yet athletic'. Maybe her average figure was meant to emphasise physically the rest of her character. It's all meant to be a package after all.

And why is it an unfortunate choice? Because bigger breasted women get a hard time, having to cope with prejudices? Smaller (C cup or below) also have a hard time of it and face prejudices. Women with A cups or AA cups are seen as 'flat chested', tom boyish (even when they try to be feminine), undesirable. Larger breasted women need to be represented in a more positive light, but so do smaller breasted women. In fact women need to represented in a more positive light. Lara Croft has always done that. She's capable, strong, intelligent, independent. Sure ReLara was unsure of herself at first and she's vulnerable, but toughening up. Lara Croft was seen as quite the role model, and it didn't have anything to do with bust size. RELara can continue to be that...regardless of bust size.

CakeLuv
7th Feb 2014, 12:28
^Gurl you on fireee

pirate1802
7th Feb 2014, 14:07
^Agreed. :o *bows to Rai*

Metalrocks
7th Feb 2014, 14:18
nicely said rai. :thumb:

BridgetFisher
7th Feb 2014, 15:16
The decision if its true that the guy who designed the reboot of lara croft wanted to make her look average was stupid. He did a good job making her average looking, but that also means shes forgettable in the industry and her iconic appeal going forward sadly is dead. Maybe that was the point to kill off any remnants of the past teams success? I'm not sure but maybe with the new team it was their way of saying HEY, were here and were taking over. Kind of like getting a new boss when they change things up.

CakeLuv
7th Feb 2014, 15:44
The decision if its true that the guy who designed the reboot of lara croft wanted to make her look average was stupid. He did a good job making her average looking, but that also means shes forgettable in the industry and her iconic appeal going forward sadly is dead. Maybe that was the point to kill off any remnants of the past teams success? I'm not sure but maybe with the new team it was their way of saying HEY, were here and were taking over. Kind of like getting a new boss when they change things up.

But the thing is that people remember her now because she kicks ass, not because of her... Beauty ( she's gorgeous though.)

Driber
7th Feb 2014, 17:15
But the thing is that people remember her now because she kicks ass, not because of her... Beauty ( she's gorgeous though.)

You are so wrong.

Old Lara wasn't remembered solely because of her chest size. Some folks liked to make fun of her because of her chest size. That's something completely different.

Rai
7th Feb 2014, 17:18
^Isn't that what Eros is saying? That old Lara is remembered for being kick ass...more than her bust?

dark7angel
7th Feb 2014, 17:20
^Isn't that what Eros is saying? That old Lara is remembered for being kick ass...more than her bust?

I think Eros was referring to Reboot Lara.

Driber
7th Feb 2014, 17:21
^Isn't that what Eros is saying? That old Lara is remembered for being kick ass...more than her bust?

No, he's claiming the opposite and using that wrong perception to try to debunk BridgetFisher's point (but failed).

CakeLuv
7th Feb 2014, 17:21
Now even I am confused.

Driber
7th Feb 2014, 17:27
Go home, Eros. You're drunk :p

CakeLuv
7th Feb 2014, 17:32
No, he's claiming the opposite and using that wrong perception to try to debunk BridgetFisher's point (but failed).

Lol? I'm not that smart, I just posted my opinion in what I thought was BridgetFisher's opinion on how stupid the desicion on makin Lara average but still hawt is dumb.

Driber
7th Feb 2014, 17:56
Lol? I'm not that smart, I just posted my opinion in what I thought was BridgetFisher's opinion on how stupid the desicion on makin Lara average but still hawt is dumb.

Please choose your words carefully here, Eros. We don't like seeing members calling the opinions of other members "dumb".

Anyway, you did catch the part where he said "IF the devs did it because of...", right? :)

CakeLuv
7th Feb 2014, 17:59
I meant that the decision (correct me pls xD) of making Lara average is dumb, not her/his post.


EDIT: Oh gods, I forgot how to english in this post

Driber
7th Feb 2014, 18:02
Oh right. I must've read your previous post wrong. Sorry :)

Dollpy
7th Feb 2014, 21:34
I know this is a messy topic we try to avoid on the forums, but depictions of the human body and how it reflects our culture and whatnot are actual issues.

We know CD made an artistic choice to have Lara be less busty in the latest game, plus they did this in 2005 too. I'm sure it was a marketing decision made in a boardroom, and it's a misguided one.

This artistic choice is a very superficial and misguided way for them to try and downplay the "sexy" roots of her character. But oddly enough that choice is the most shallow of all, because it implies a person's body proportions determine who they are.

The backlash against very normal human anatomy that this kind of thing represents kind of disturbs me. There's nothing inherently "naughty" about breasts no matter what size they are. D-cups are no more or less naughty than B-cups for example, and beauty is all personal taste anyway.

It's artistic cowardice, as odd as the subject may seem. It is in it's own way bigotry against people with certain body types. I've read from busty actresses that they can't get some roles because people say their breasts are a "distraction", stuff like that. It's kind of repugnant, honestly.

If Lara did happen to have large breasts in these new games, and was still characterized exactly as she is, wouldn't that be a good message? Isn't it a shame that certain body types are considered "taboo"? If their idea is that Lara is more "normal" or "relatable" now, what does that say about women with big breasts? Why would her anatomy have anything to do with that?

I know it's just one artistic detail, but in a way I do find it to be unfortunate, and it's a very unfortunate idea that people who happen to have a certain bra size are considered limited in the roles they'll be portrayed in. This is a character who was notably big breasted, I think having the character be like that and kind of having the message that hey, the body is just the body, it doesn't determine who you are. That would be a positive thing.

While the art style is more realistic than in the old stylized days, having big breasts has never been an unrealistic aspect itself. People come in all shapes and sizes. There's no need for these strange body shame issues.

Nobody complains about Lara having as curvy a derriere as ever, and many are more attracted to that than breasts, plus it's what we see in the camera. And nobody is complaining about the constant very small waist sizes. Lara is of course still an idealized character physically, whether this is automatically bad is another issue, but blaming breasts is wrong. Making her less busty in an attempt to be "inoffensive" is actually an offensive thing.

This character is a good opportunity to fight these prejudices, a person who happens to be large breasted presented with respect and taken seriously.

Sorry, I do not agree. Everyone knows that someone with DDs is going to get oogled way more than someone with an A cup. Yes there are busty women out there, but the average isn't DD or bigger.New Lara is at least a C and that should be fine.

I agree with what someone else said. Most of the girl in games are big busted these days. She may have been one of the first iconic characters, but that attribute doesn't make her unique anymore.

Rai
8th Feb 2014, 01:57
The decision if its true that the guy who designed the reboot of lara croft wanted to make her look average was stupid. He did a good job making her average looking, but that also means shes forgettable in the industry and her iconic appeal going forward sadly is dead. Maybe that was the point to kill off any remnants of the past teams success? I'm not sure but maybe with the new team it was their way of saying HEY, were here and were taking over. Kind of like getting a new boss when they change things up.


Lol? I'm not that smart, I just posted my opinion in what I thought was BridgetFisher's opinion on how stupid the desicion on makin Lara average but still hawt is dumb.

But wait, IF CD's intention was to make her have an average body, this is no bad thing, imo. It's not the same as her face, which isn't average in looks, imo. Plus Lara old or new is so much more than her looks alone. What ReLara is, IF she is average to begin with, is a girl you could imagine meeting in a cafe or visiting her Uni and asking directions from approachable. Personality-wise she has that inner strength thing going on that just flows forth by the end of the game. So, she'll be known as this regular girl who totally came into her own, kicked some serious butt and survived against the odds. That's pretty freakin' awesome if you ask me. Her average sized bust won't get a look in, which may have been what CD want now. Plus, if you think about it, having an average body kinda makes Lara's achievements even more remarkable as it adds to the picture of someone who overcame the odds physically too. *slightly reaching now* In short though, I disagree she's now forgettable or the reasoning is dumb (if it really is that).

pirate1802
8th Feb 2014, 02:41
Reminds me of that amazing new titties guy's posts where he claimed that Lara looked posh and unique and beautiful and whatnot in the previous games, and now she is turned into a middle class frumpy housewife. Say.. isn't there a patch or something that increases her boob size?

Thetford
8th Feb 2014, 02:49
How do big front porches make you look posh? It's not as if the Queen has a pair of knockers that rival Dolly's.

Murphdawg1
8th Feb 2014, 02:50
But wait, IF CD's intention was to make her have an average body, this is no bad thing, imo. It's not the same as her face, which isn't average in looks, imo. Plus Lara old or new is so much more than her looks alone. What ReLara is, IF she is average to begin with, is a girl you could imagine meeting in a cafe or visiting her Uni and asking directions from approachable. Personality-wise she has that inner strength thing going on that just flows forth by the end of the game. So, she'll be known as this regular girl who totally came into her own, kicked some serious butt and survived against the odds. That's pretty freakin' awesome if you ask me. Her average sized bust won't get a look in, which may have been what CD want now. Plus, if you think about it, having an average body kinda makes Lara's achievements even more remarkable as it adds to the picture of someone who overcame the odds physically too. *slightly reaching now* In short though, I disagree she's now forgettable or the reasoning is dumb (if it really is that).


Excellent post Rai, couldn't have said it better myself.

pirate1802
8th Feb 2014, 02:56
How do big front porches make you look posh? It's not as if the Queen has a pair of knockers that rival Dolly's.

Lol I don't know.. ask that guy. :lol:

Metalrocks
8th Feb 2014, 06:31
lara looks just fine as she is. i also dont remember her for having big breasts. you can say she is like the female version of indiana jones who kicks ass.

but one thing we can all agree on is, that she doesnt have breasts like these:
jltvjq_1087604-lolo-ferrari-a-saint-tropez-le-3-620x0-2.jpg

gross, thats what i have to say to it.

now this would be clearly wrong.

Jurre
8th Feb 2014, 08:14
Well as Rai's comparison pictures pointed out, Lara's breast size has always been surprisingly the same in every game in the series. Which I think undermines the whole premise of this thread to begin with...

a_big_house
8th Feb 2014, 15:52
gross, thats what i have to say to it.

now this would be clearly wrong.

:eek: There's nothing wrong with them! For all you know, she could have got them just incase that tide came in too much and she needed them to keep her afloat! :lol:

CakeLuv
8th Feb 2014, 16:12
What the flop happened to everything? :lol:


EDIT: Wrong thread, I somehow related Dubledor's boob to this thread.

Psychomorph
13th Feb 2014, 21:31
Make it larger.

My problem with her size was simply because it was so horribly generic. Every heroine had to have mega sized breasts. Like an unwritten law in the game industry.

Other reason was that it looks granny if it's too large. Normal sized looks young and fresh. I don't like very large ones because it reminds me of grannies.

Lara is sporty and has a high fat burn, less large breast looks more believable in this scenario.

Golden Method
14th Feb 2014, 02:08
To be honest I never really noticed her boobs. However, the only character in gaming history who should never have her proportions changed are Chun-Li. If Capcom ever changed her, and she no longer had a small waist and very thick legs and thighs, it wouldn't be Chun-Li.

Driber
14th Feb 2014, 11:51
Make it larger.

Glad you agree :p


To be honest I never really noticed her boobs. However, the only character in gaming history who should never have her proportions changed are Chun-Li. If Capcom ever changed her, and she no longer had a small waist and very thick legs and thighs, it wouldn't be Chun-Li.

If you think about it, there is no different between the big boobs of Chun-Li and the big boobs of Lara.

And about her legs - they are unsightly, and there would be as much reason to change them as Lara's appearance. Or as I like to think - as little reason.

Golden Method
14th Feb 2014, 20:02
@Driber, I find no difference between the two. Both are body parts. However, before this thread, I never knew there was any discussion about Lara's breast or that they contributed that much to her lore and being easily recognized. For Chun-Li, I know there is history behind it and there are plenty of threads and posts on the internet discussing her features. So when I see someone like Andressa Soares, I think of Chun-Li because they are so similar but with Lara, "big breasts" were never ingrained in my head so I have no one to compare her to.

I think more and more companies and games are coming under fire for over the top sexuality but I see no problem with it. Have you seen the Amazon and Witch from Dragons Crown? Some people had a problem with it, just like some people had a problem with the sexual stuff in Killer Is Dead, but like I said, I have no problem with it.

If Lara were changed, would it impact the "feel" of her character like this guy describes?

http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=9032251

Driber
14th Feb 2014, 22:19
@Driber, I find no difference between the two. Both are body parts. However, before this thread, I never knew there was any discussion about Lara's breast or that they contributed that much to her lore and being easily recognized.

Well then you've either lived under a rock for the past 18 years, or you just haven't followed TR stuff all that much, heh.


For Chun-Li, I know there is history behind it and there are plenty of threads and posts on the internet discussing her features. So when I see someone like Andressa Soares, I think of Chun-Li because they are so similar but with Lara, "big breasts" were never ingrained in my head so I have no one to compare her to.

When I think of Chun-Li, it's just the outfit and the massive legs that come to mind. I've never really paid much attention to her breasts.

So I guess we're in the same boat, only on the contrary :D


I think more and more companies and games are coming under fire for over the top sexuality but I see no problem with it. Have you seen the Amazon and Witch from Dragons Crown? Some people had a problem with it, just like some people had a problem with the sexual stuff in Killer Is Dead, but like I said, I have no problem with it.

I'm not familiar with either, I'm afraid. Can you post some pictures to illustrate? :)


If Lara were changed, would it impact the "feel" of her character like this guy describes?

http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=9032251

Haven't read the article, but I'm assuming his POV is that if Chun-Li would have regular sized legs, it would change the feel of the character? If so, I can definitely see how that is a sensible standpoint.

Just like the iconic features of Lara. If they are changed, it will change the feel of her character.

You don't turn Lara into a black woman. You don't give her blonde hair. You don't give her a crew cut. You don't change the color of her eyes. You don't make her American. And the OP argues that you don't turn her boobs from DD to C. (just an example; I don't know what her actual size was and what it is now)

I myself can see the reason in "leave her boobs alone!", heh. I don't care for eye color and think Lara could have any possible color and I'd still view her much the same. Some people may argue that Batman doesn't need his iconic cape to be Batman and that it's not his appearance, but his personality and his actions that matter. Some Batman fans people would passionate argue the opposite.

In the end it's all down to personal preference and what we feel is an important part of a character and what isn't :)

AluminumHaste
18th Mar 2014, 21:58
I actually thought they were still too big, Lara is not a big girl in this game, yet her breasts were still quite perky. Very nice to look at but if I were doing the things she was doing, the first thing I would do would be to tie them down with a cloth or something.
All those tight spaces in caves and such, they'd just get in the way.;)

Driber
19th Mar 2014, 08:16
I actually thought they were still too big, Lara is not a big girl in this game, yet her breasts were still quite perky.)

Invalid argument. You don't need to be tall to have big breasts.


Very nice to look at but if I were doing the things she was doing, the first thing I would do would be to tie them down with a cloth or something.

The first thing you or any other real person would do is get the hell back to the ship and stay there and not go after a murderous cult leader in the first place. Heh.



All those tight spaces in caves and such, they'd just get in the way.;)

Yeah and let's get rid of her bow, and most of her equipment, too. Those things make it impossible to get through tight spaces :p

pirate1802
19th Mar 2014, 10:50
But the ship was bust?

Driber
19th Mar 2014, 13:16
So?

pirate1802
19th Mar 2014, 13:58
So how would she stay on a sinking ship?

Metalrocks
19th Mar 2014, 14:00
lol, how could she get back to the ship in the first place. she found her self hung up and had to fight her way back to it. :p

Driber
19th Mar 2014, 14:38
Man, you guys really love arguing semantics, don't you :p

I'm sure the point of what I was saying was understood ;)

pirate1802
19th Mar 2014, 15:10
That if we or other people had been there instead of Lara we'd not do the things she did or the way she did?

Chocolate_shake
19th Mar 2014, 16:16
If I were in Lara's place I would be dead in the scavenger's den (But I would have tried my best to escape )

pirate1802
19th Mar 2014, 16:31
:p I think "normal" person would have been better than "real" person because while I'd most probably have impaled myself again on the spike and most people woldnt have survived for long, there have been people who have pulled through equally tough situations (though granted not after being impaled and shot a million times)

Driber
20th Mar 2014, 08:57
Heh, I challenge you to find a real person who pulled off everything Lara has pulled off. When you do, I'll amend the "real" bit and will substitute it with "normal", as you suggested. Until then, I stick by what I said :cool:

pirate1802
20th Mar 2014, 09:34
Yeah but you were more implying the psychological aspect of it rather than the physical aspect of it. My english isn't the strongest but isn't that saying "no real person would be able to do that" (which is correct, as I said) vs "no real person is stupid enough to do that". TR's own Facebook page carried a series of real life female badasses who pulled of quite daring acts.

Benovine
20th Mar 2014, 11:28
Let's not lose sight of the fact that Lara's figure in the first few games is physically unattainable without surgery, but then I suppose that just takes us into debating why a woman who has chosen to have surgery should be taken any less seriously.

I believe that Crystal Dynamics reduced Lara's breasts for all the right reasons, but I agree with the opening post that it is indeed a sad reflection on our society that the developers ever thought that changing the characters body image to stop her being sexualised was necessary.

Jurre
20th Mar 2014, 11:53
but I agree with the opening post that it is indeed a sad reflection on our society that the developers ever thought that changing the characters body image to stop her being sexualised was necessary.
I do not believe that that is the case at all. I think there were very different reasons to do that:

Her body looks less cartoony to fit the less cartoony look of her entire world within the game. She's not as tantalizingly clothed as before because sexyness in a woman (mostly combined with an angry face) can mean power, confidence, control, and can be intimidating. Something that is not applicable to Lara in her early stages.

For those reasons, it would in my opinion have been completely unfitting for Lara in TR9 to look and dress like she did in Legend, just as it would be unfitting for her in Legend to look like she does in TR9.

Driber
20th Mar 2014, 12:56
Yeah but you were more implying the psychological aspect of it rather than the physical aspect of it.

I wasn't, but that's a good angle, too. Heh.


TR's own Facebook page carried a series of real life female badasses who pulled of quite daring acts.

Again - so what?

I never claimed that real people can't do amazing things.


Let's not lose sight of the fact that Lara's figure in the first few games is physically unattainable without surgery,

You are wrong there. Plenty of women have the same sized breasts as Lara, even classic Lara, without surgery. We already discussed that many times over.


but then I suppose that just takes us into debating why a woman who has chosen to have surgery should be taken any less seriously.

Very good point.

Those who want to make the claim that breast augmentation is something inherently bad, are just being hypocritical and/or jealous. It's also something incredibly prejudiced. And it amazes me that in this day of age, where those same people are advocating diversity and personal freedom, would at the same time be so judgemental about something that doesn't fit in their own definition of what is beautiful...


I believe that Crystal Dynamics reduced Lara's breasts for all the right reasons, but I agree with the opening post that it is indeed a sad reflection on our society that the developers ever thought that changing the characters body image to stop her being sexualised was necessary.

You don't know what the devs were thinking nor what their motives were, but apart from that I agree on you with the state of society where attractiveness is being turned into a bad thing. It's crazy if you ask me.


I do not believe that that is the case at all. I think there were very different reasons to do that:

Her body looks less cartoony to fit the less cartoony look of her entire world within the game. She's not as tantalizingly clothed as before because sexyness in a woman (mostly combined with an angry face) can mean power, confidence, control, and can be intimidating. Something that is not applicable to Lara in her early stages.

For those reasons, it would in my opinion have been completely unfitting for Lara in TR9 to look and dress like she did in Legend, just as it would be unfitting for her in Legend to look like she does in TR9.

I do not believe in this theory for one simple reason - the TR universe was never cartoony.

While the TR universe was never ultra realistic (as in, sim game-like) and certain amount of supernatural elements were normal (and still are, even after the reboot), it still did a bang job portraying a real enough world.

Naturally, as the franchise progressed, graphics started to look more realistic, and so did Lara's appearance. The same happens with pretty much any other franchise, apart from games like Mario and Sonic, which were meant to look cartoony from day 1 and will always look cartoony. We can't say that about a game like TR.

Big breasts and revealing outfits aren't cartoony by definition. They can be, but they don't have to be.

pirate1802
20th Mar 2014, 13:26
I never claimed that real people can't do amazing things.

Wasn't the "if she was real she would have done those crazy (amazing?) things" sort of implying that? Or is my implication augmentation malfunctioning again..

Driber
20th Mar 2014, 15:51
If by "would" you mean "wouldn't", then no. To put it more simple - no real person could (nor would) do all the things Lara does. Emphasis on all. That only happens in the fantasy worlds of Hollywood.

Gemma_Darkmoon_
18th Apr 2014, 14:14
I believe that Crystal Dynamics reduced Lara's breasts for all the right reasons, but I agree with the opening post that it is indeed a sad reflection on our society that the developers ever thought that changing the characters body image to stop her being sexualised was necessary.

I think they changed her body shape to remove some of the sexual component to her look. It is sad though that a girl having large breasts means that she is somehow highly sexualised. Lara herself never plays into using her looks to get places. She would never be afraid to be bold and I still find CD's move of changing her body shape for 'social stereotypes' almost the opposite of what Lara stands for.