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Luckmann
22nd Dec 2013, 16:32
So, when I got the Director's Cut version, I had completely forgotten about the way takedowns worked in this game; non-lethal takedowns are better in every single meaningful way.

They are completely silent, for no good reason.
They give more experience, for no good reason.

Meanwhile, lethal takedowns:
Are as loud as firing a gun.
Give you less experience.

Now, there's one advantage to lethal takedowns. For non-lethal takedowns, if the enemy is found, he'll wake up again. However, when a killed enemy is found, the alarm is sounded. The issue with this "defense" of the no-choice mechanics being: If his compatriots find the killed or knocked-out mark, you are doing something fundamentally wrong.

That's a situation that flat-out shouldn't happen, and even if it does, the tradeoff is extremely minor to the point of not mattering.

This is an issue that is so frustrating that I cannot play the game without having the experience completely ruined, when going for lethal playthroughs. Comparing it to a silenced weapon, I'm actually *better* off *shooting* someone at point-blank range than attempt to do a lethal takedown in melee.

The question now being: Did anyone ever fix this? Is there a mod somewhere that rectifies it? I've searched high and low, but been unable to find one, but relatively speaking, I feel that this is an issue that should be fixable comparatively easily.

Any leads? Any help?

Luckmann
28th Dec 2013, 21:30
I'll take that as a no, I guess.

Ragarnoy
29th Dec 2013, 02:31
Sorry mate, i fear they completely abandonned this game, released a patch you need to buy to fix some things that werent really annoying, without fixing the most obvious problems and/or plot holes. Of course that takedown thing is a problem since in every way the lethal way is bad, you dont get achievements whatsoever but you dont get ingame rewards for being non-lethal either but the other problem is that the ONLY way to have a lot of experience is to be stealthy and knock out everyone in the level, which doesnt make sense because you would expect to have a bigger reward for DOING THE LEVEL WITHOUT TOUCHING ANYONE and doing ONLY the objective.

Berr
29th Dec 2013, 10:00
released a patch you need to buy

Oh good grief, no. I guess you could also call a sequel a 'content pack you need to buy'.

I can't even be bothered anymore. :mad2:

Jito463
29th Dec 2013, 10:05
Oh good grief, no. I guess you could also call a sequel a 'content pack you need to buy'.

I can't even be bothered anymore. :mad2:

I believe he's referring to the Director's Cut version, which should have actually been free for those who own the base game & TML, as it basically just combines the two (as it should have been originally). Not that $5 was much, but the principle still stands.

Berr
29th Dec 2013, 10:57
Yes I know he is referring to the Directors Cut.

And yes, the principle still stands: it is perfectly reasonable to charge money for new content. The Director's Cut DOES NOT just combine the base game and TML. Expecting it to be free is naive and absurd.

The Director's Cut would appear to have a mess of problems, but that's another issue.

Luckmann
29th Dec 2013, 11:47
Yes I know he is referring to the Directors Cut.

And yes, the principle still stands: it is perfectly reasonable to charge money for new content. The Director's Cut DOES NOT just combine the base game and TML. Expecting it to be free is naive and absurd.

The Director's Cut would appear to have a mess of problems, but that's another issue.

What else does it do? It's the only reason I got it, since I thought having TML as a stand-alone was a fundamentally terrible idea from the onset.

Jito463
29th Dec 2013, 13:08
I'd like to know that, too. I've played the base game, Missing Link and the DC version. Save for the aforementioned inclusion of TML, I didn't notice any significant difference from the vanilla game; unless you count the Tong mission, which I already had from pre-ordering through Gamestop.

Berr
29th Dec 2013, 15:48
Not sure how you've missed the dot point list of new features in the DC, but here is my version:
- Integrated TML
- Tong mission included, as you mentioned
- Redone boss fights (which is beyond a patch or fix since they weren't broken before, simply unpopular / a weak point)
- Developer commentary
- New Game Plus
- and apparently one day on PC, second screen functionality

It's not a huge list, but it is non-bug-fix work that took some reasonable effort, and $5 is not a lot of money either.

Luckmann
29th Dec 2013, 16:14
Not sure how you've missed the dot point list of new features in the DC, but here is my version:
- Integrated TML
- Tong mission included, as you mentioned
- Redone boss fights (which is beyond a patch or fix since they weren't broken before, simply unpopular / a weak point)
- Developer commentary
- New Game Plus
- and apparently one day on PC, second screen functionality

It's not a huge list, but it is non-bug-fix work that took some reasonable effort, and $5 is not a lot of money either.

Integrated TML and redone boss-fights are definitely patch material, and the Tong Mission should never have been a pre-order exclusive to begin with, taking out content to sell off piecemeal.

The developer commentary and new game plus I'll give you, but either on it's own really isn't worth anything.

"Second screen functionality" that nobody cares about "one day" isn't really.. the fact that you're even listing it is a bit grasping at straws.

But to get back to the matter at hand, anyone have any idea where one would even start to fix the Lethal Takedowns?

Ragarnoy
29th Dec 2013, 17:02
Integrated TML and redone boss-fights are definitely patch material, and the Tong Mission should never have been a pre-order exclusive to begin with, taking out content to sell off piecemeal.

The developer commentary and new game plus I'll give you, but either on it's own really isn't worth anything.

"Second screen functionality" that nobody cares about "one day" isn't really.. the fact that you're even listing it is a bit grasping at straws.

But to get back to the matter at hand, anyone have any idea where one would even start to fix the Lethal Takedowns?

You shouldnt have any bonus for the non-lethal as you already have too much maluses on the lethal takedown (non silent, ect...)

CyberP
29th Dec 2013, 17:33
Incorrect. There should be no xp for playstyles at all. But this has been discussed to death, it is what it is, we can just hope it is something that will be different in DX4. "Be patient" :)

And yes, The Director's cut was a wasted opportunity. I called it.
Still wouldn't make sense to release it as a patch, though as it stands it's not really worth the price either, on consoles and if you already own the original at least. but then I have the choice not to buy it so that is OK. Still a wasted opportunity though.
Let them milk the money, as long as DX4 is the game I hope it to be then I don't care. In fact they will deserve it, Square Enix and EM, they will deserve the milked money and doing this **** aint cheap, but it is on the consumer end.

Just give me Deus Ex. :)

Luckmann
29th Dec 2013, 19:55
You shouldnt have any bonus for the non-lethal as you already have too much maluses on the lethal takedown (non silent, ect...)

I agree, so I don't see what your point is.


Incorrect. There should be no xp for playstyles at all. But this has been discussed to death, it is what it is, we can just hope it is something that will be different in DX4. "Be patient" :)

And yes, The Director's cut was a wasted opportunity. I called it.
Still wouldn't make sense to release it as a patch, though as it stands it's not really worth the price either, on consoles and if you already own the original at least. but then I have the choice not to buy it so that is OK. Still a wasted opportunity though.
Let them milk the money, as long as DX4 is the game I hope it to be then I don't care. In fact they will deserve it, Square Enix and EM, they will deserve the milked money and doing this **** aint cheap, but it is on the consumer end.

Just give me Deus Ex. :)

I agree, and DX:HR has many issues (the way it deals with experience being a huge problem, I have no idea what they were thinking, messing with the formula from Deus Ex).

However, experience I can deal with. I can give myself extra experience. There's no way to work around the issues of core functionality like this, and the basic assumptions the game makes.

The fact that Lethal Takedowns are useless, however, completely breaks it for me. I can work around certain game mechanics to a degree. But when it just up and takes meaningful choice away from me, it really grinds my gears. I can accept that I have to hack everything. I can accept experience being handed out seemingly at random, pushing people that play legitimately towards a certain playstyle.

I cannot accept not being able to straight-up murder someone silently, when I can not-murder them in complete silence.

That's the single biggest glaring flaw in the entire game, and it completely and irrevocably breaks it for me. :mad2:

CyberP
29th Dec 2013, 20:25
I cannot accept not being able to straight-up murder someone silently, when I can not-murder them in complete silence.

That's the single biggest glaring flaw in the entire game, and it completely and irrevocably breaks it for me. :mad2:

That....that's it? That's all you really care about, or care about most? That's some short-sighted bloodlust there. I suggest you go and lethal takedown some hookers (in-game). Get it out of your system.
Then you can return and we can talk ;)

Luckmann
29th Dec 2013, 20:45
That....that's it? That's all you really care about, or care about most? That's some short-sighted bloodlust there. I suggest you go and lethal takedown some hookers (in-game). Get it out of your system.
Then you can return and we can talk ;)

No, I care about a lot of things, but this isn't really the thread to list everything that is wrong with DE:HR. This is only the most infuriating point, because it removes any semblance of choice for a stealth-oriented playthrough.

If you're doing a stealth-oriented playthrough, you should have as much of a choice as if you weren't. The way it works now, it's just not feasible without doing ass-backwards things like shooting enemies in the face after doing a silent takedown, or simply do silenced headshots.

It's ridiculous that I can sneak up to someone and shoot them point-blank in the head with a gun, right next to another enemy, yet I can't muffle their screams with a swift knifing to the throat.

I don't mind doing a stealth-oriented pacifist playthrough. But that's not what I want to do. And I resent the fact that there's only one way to "optimally" play the game.

Especially when this is a thing that should be very easily fixable.

CyberP
29th Dec 2013, 21:06
No, I care about a lot of things, but this isn't really the thread to list everything that is wrong with DE:HR. This is only the most infuriating point, because it removes any semblance of choice for a stealth-oriented playthrough.

If you're doing a stealth-oriented playthrough, you should have as much of a choice as if you weren't. The way it works now, it's just not feasible without doing ass-backwards things like shooting enemies in the face after doing a silent takedown, or simply do silenced headshots.

It's ridiculous that I can sneak up to someone and shoot them point-blank in the head with a gun, right next to another enemy, yet I can't muffle their screams with a swift knifing to the throat.

I don't mind doing a stealth-oriented pacifist playthrough. But that's not what I want to do. And I resent the fact that there's only one way to "optimally" play the game.

Especially when this is a thing that should be very easily fixable.

If you are going lethal you do not need to silence subdued enemies with a shot to the head because they only wake up if another NPC (not in alert status) happens upon them on the floor. If you are playing lethally you will likely be killing everyone so this never happens. I do it all the time, as soon as I non-lethal takedown someone they are permanently disabled because everyone else gets put down too.

Still, the imbalance is a valid complaint.

Bear in mind enemies have their patrol routes, and are usually bunched together as squads, so if you take down a whole squad you never have to worry about them again. Squads never cross paths. In the case of return maps, such as Detroit and Hengsha, these are seperate maps to the first time you visit so there are no bodies upon return either.
Seriously, if you are going lethal playstyle, as soon as you non-L takedown a guy he is essentially dead. I don't think I have ever seen a guy get awakened on a lethal playthrough, and I always use non-L takedowns for their overall faster anim sequence speed, button press speed (tap rather than hold on console), silence as well as xp bonus.

They are aware of these flaws and I am sure they will be fixed next time around.

You don't want to be playing sneakily anyway, the shooting playstyle is far superior for a number of reasons.

Shralla
29th Dec 2013, 21:44
- Redone boss fights (which is beyond a patch or fix since they weren't broken before

Yes, they were. They really, really were. In a game of choice and consequence with a focus on stealth and non-lethal playthroughs, even the Director's Cut versions of the boss fights are fundamentally broken. Less broken than vanilla, but still broken.

CyberP
29th Dec 2013, 21:56
Yes, they were. They really, really were. In a game of choice and consequence with a focus on stealth and non-lethal playthroughs, even the Director's Cut versions of the boss fights are fundamentally broken. Less broken than vanilla, but still broken.

No! Terribly designed they were, but by definition broken they were not. Both stealth and lethal players could beat them no problem, this was ensured by the designers at least.

Shralla
29th Dec 2013, 22:00
But not by using your preferred playstyle. Encouraging playstyle choice throughout the whole game and then having three sections where your playstyle choice is entirely irrelevant and there is only one option is broken.

Luckmann
29th Dec 2013, 22:26
If you are going lethal you do not need to silence subdued enemies with a shot to the head because they only wake up if another NPC (not in alert status) happens upon them on the floor. If you are playing lethally you will likely be killing everyone so this never happens. I do it all the time, as soon as I non-lethal takedown someone they are permanently disabled because everyone else gets put down too. You misunderstand. I need to shoot them in the head because otherwise they're not dead - doing Lethal Takedowns are so infeasible that you end up having to do Nonlethal Takedowns and then shooting them in the head to kill the passed-out enemy.



[...]

Seriously, if you are going lethal as soon as you non-L takedown a guy he is essentially dead. I don't think I have ever seen a guy get awakened on a lethal playthrough, and I always use non-L takedowns for their overall faster anim sequence speed, button press speed (tap rather than hold on console), silence as well as xp bonus.And the fact that you do these things are part of the problem - not the solution. During a lethal playthrough, you should not be doing non-lethal takedowns for the overall faster anim. seq. speed, the button press speed, silence and experience bonus. These are all out-of-character considerations that act as immersion-breakers. Nothing else.

The fact that someone is "essentially dead" doesn't mean that he's actually dead; not in game terms and not in terms of immersion.


They are aware of these flaws and I am sure they will be fixed next time around.Hardly helps with this game.


You don't want to be playing sneakily anyway, the shooting playstyle is far superior for a number of reasons.I don't think that's a decision for you to make. The superiority of a playstyle should be up to the player and what they prefer. I always, lethal or non-lethal, prefer a stealth-based approach.


No! Terribly designed they were, but by definition broken they were not. Both stealth and lethal players could beat them no problem, this was ensured by the designers at least.

Depends on your definition of "broken" if anything. By all accounts and my measurements, the boss-fights weren't just idiotic, needless, ridiculous and unbalanced; they were as broken as broken as broken can be.

CyberP
29th Dec 2013, 22:28
But not by using your preferred playstyle. Encouraging playstyle choice throughout the whole game and then having three sections where your playstyle choice is entirely irrelevant and there is only one option is broken.

...It's hard to defend it really :) Especially the related cutscenes- their contents and implementation is far worse imo.

But this is another thing we have discussed to death. The RPG systems are what need this scale of attention imo.

CyberP
29th Dec 2013, 23:05
You misunderstand. I need to shoot them in the head because otherwise they're not dead - doing Lethal Takedowns are so infeasible that you end up having to do Nonlethal Takedowns and then shooting them in the head to kill the passed-out enemy.

No misunderstanding on my part- enemies can only wake up again if another NPC in an unalert state discovers them. lethal just leave them there, non-lethal hide the body or just throw them out of the map/into something lethal or indeed shoot them in the head...but yes, I suppose I see your point clearer now, since you play lethal stealth.


And the fact that you do these things are part of the problem - not the solution. During a lethal playthrough, you should not be doing non-lethal takedowns for the overall faster anim. seq. speed, the button press speed, silence and experience bonus. These are all out-of-character considerations that act as immersion-breakers. Nothing else.

Not exactly out of character. You don't have to be strictly murderous when going lethal.

I am not really trying to defend the atrocities you are almost 100% correct in everything you are saying. I was just pointing out that for a lethal character you don't need to pop them in the head after a non-L takedown, they can just be considered dead since they never wake up except by another NPC.


The fact that someone is "essentially dead" doesn't mean that he's actually dead; not in game terms and not in terms of immersion.


Correct, but LGS simulation design was scoffed at by...despite the fact that LGS sim design never gets in the way of gameplay 9.5 times out of 10.


I don't think that's a decision for you to make. The superiority of a playstyle should be up to the player and what they prefer. I always, lethal or non-lethal, prefer a stealth-based approach.

Impossible. The two playstyles will never be able to be equal as they are vastly different. When I call DX:HR's shooting superior I mean this because it's stealth is so bad- No melee weapons but contextual 1 button takedowns, 1 hit KO tranqs, regenerating invisibility, radar, third person cover, no light-based visibility etc. No challenge.
Shooting has it's own problems but in my opinion it's vastly superior. It's core is still there, despite regen health and such, but stealth is completely ruined by the aforementioned mechanics.

But yes, you are focusing on takedowns here whilst I am going off on a tangent. Yes non-lethal and lethal takedowns should be better balanced, as should the playstyles in general, as balanced as they can be.


Depends on your definition of "broken" if anything. By all accounts and my measurements, the boss-fights weren't just idiotic, needless, ridiculous and unbalanced; they were as broken as broken as broken can be.

Heh.

Ragarnoy
30th Dec 2013, 00:17
I think the devs simply completely ran out of time and rushed things (as heard on the commentaries), i thought of writing an email to some of then to explain what was wrong in this game, we can CLEARLY see some things are wrong, like when you go to Panchea and your rocket goes into the sea, then you magically appear on the helipad for no reason. That's just an example and i think that, yeah, maybe they didnt think through the lethal option much, what's the point of making the non-lethal harder way if you give SO much rewards for knocking out people that you just end up with almost ALL the PKs (what i ended up with) ? It just stops becoming hard, just hoard Cyberboosts and activate cloak+silent running and you can do the whole level without being spotted and that litteraly what i did for the last level.

CyberP
30th Dec 2013, 01:22
i thought of writing an email to some of then to explain what was wrong in this game

Don't bother. They've had to put up with us for years, I don't think they deserve any more amateurs whining at them ;) Well, and perhaps professionals under a guise have popped in from time to time also, you never know.

Just "be patient".
Another "praise thread" would be nice. I'll consider it, I have a good eye :)

You can always play my mod whilst you wait (GMDX). I am releasing what should be the final patch soon which will hopefully result in optimal Deus Ex badassery, the definitive experience for DX vets :) That's not because it's the only mod designed specifically for the vets, lol :P

Ragarnoy
31st Dec 2013, 03:20
Don't bother. They've had to put up with us for years, I don't think they deserve any more amateurs whining at them ;) Well, and perhaps professionals under a guise have popped in from time to time also, you never know.

Just "be patient".
Another "praise thread" would be nice. I'll consider it, I have a good eye :)

You can always play my mod whilst you wait (GMDX). I am releasing what should be the final patch soon which will hopefully result in optimal Deus Ex badassery, the definitive experience for DX vets :) That's not because it's the only mod designed specifically for the vets, lol :P

Acting like you're somehow superior really isnt going to help anyone.

CyberP
31st Dec 2013, 03:34
Please, point out where this is implied. "I have a good eye"? You are jealous of my eye, it's vastly superior. Attracts the ladies too.

Perhaps it was because I recommended that you not bother emailing the devs? Go ahead if you really want.

Perhaps it's because I typed "be patient"? You may have noticed the quotation marks, here I am quoting the lead designer at Eidos Montreal.
If that is what confused you then it's just a misunderstanding to be swept under the rug I guess.

HERESY
31st Dec 2013, 04:11
Integrated TML and redone boss-fights are definitely patch material

Incorrect and it has been explained why many times before.

Luckmann
31st Dec 2013, 14:19
Incorrect and it has been explained why many times before.

Hah, no. :lol:

HERESY
31st Dec 2013, 18:15
Hah, no. :lol:

Ha, Yes. :o:lol::rasp::lmao:

Luckmann
31st Dec 2013, 20:00
Ha, Yes. :o:lol::rasp::lmao:

Then I pity whatever patches you've gotten throughout the years.

HERESY
31st Dec 2013, 22:52
Then I pity whatever patches you've gotten throughout the years.

Pity should stay out of the conversation. Reading what they've said about why it wasn't as simple as a providing a patch should be your goal here.

Use the forums search engine and you will find the reason why.

Luckmann
31st Dec 2013, 23:41
Pity should stay out of the conversation. Reading what they've said about why it wasn't as simple as a providing a patch should be your goal here.

Use the forums search engine and you will find the reason why.

Oh, I never said that it was *simple*, nor did I suggest it would be. I'm saying that it should've been patch material, whether it was simple to do or not.

I think you are under the mistaken assumption that patches are to reflect the simplicity of fixing what they fix, rather than what they actually do.

No matter whether it's hard or easy to implement, the effects were very much what you'd expect out of a patch, not an expansion, yet the money asked for are very much an expansion's worth for those that already owned the game.

HERESY
1st Jan 2014, 03:20
Oh, I never said that it was *simple*, nor did I suggest it would be. I'm saying that it should've been patch material, whether it was simple to do or not.

This is pure circle talk. Not only do you fail to define what is "patch material", you still fail to acknowledge the reason why they said they couldn't/didn't do it and provide no logical counter-argument.


I think you are under the mistaken assumption that patches are to reflect the simplicity of fixing what they fix, rather than what they actually do.

See above. You are under the mistaken assumption that the boss fights and TML could be patched in. They couldn't be patched in and it was explained why. Use the boards search engine.


No matter whether it's hard or easy to implement, the effects were very much what you'd expect out of a patch, not an expansion, yet the money asked for are very much an expansion's worth for those that already owned the game.

See above.

68_pie
1st Jan 2014, 06:29
Acting like you're somehow superior really isnt going to help anyone.

That's his thing. You'll get used to it.

CyberP
1st Jan 2014, 12:41
That's his thing. You'll get used to it.

You'll get used to it because you come to agree with the majority of what I say over time. ;)

...I'll consider re-evaluating the wording of my posts, if I am that bad.

Damn you, 68_Pie.

Luckmann
1st Jan 2014, 13:50
This is pure circle talk. Not only do you fail to define what is "patch material", you still fail to acknowledge the reason why they said they couldn't/didn't do it and provide no logical counter-argument.You don't know what "circle talk" is, but more to the point, I never attempted to define what "patch material" would be - and, I might add, neither did you. Nor did I even hint at caring for what their arguments were for not being able to/wanting to do it.

It was not my intention to supply a "logical counter-argument". You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that I am trying to formulate such an argument. I am not. Nor did I ever suggest that it would be easy doing these things as part of a patch.


See above. You are under the mistaken assumption that the boss fights and TML could be patched in. They couldn't be patched in and it was explained why. Use the boards search engine.That's a lie. You don't seem to know what a patch is. You could theoretically patch Minesweeper into World of Warcraft, if you really wanted to and wanted to spend the time.

The difference here lies in that I define "patch material" by what it does and what you can expect out of a patch, while you define a patch based on how hard it is to produce. There is no inherent relation between the two.


See above.Yeah, I see no conflict with what I said.

Jito463
1st Jan 2014, 14:25
I have to concur with Luckmann on this one. Redesigning a map and integrating the DLC is essentially a patch. Their difficulty in doing so, because of their shortsightedness in designing the Missing Link DLC to not be easily integrated into the main game, is irrelevant to the discussion.

HERESY
1st Jan 2014, 19:12
You don't know what "circle talk" is, but more to the point, I never attempted to define what "patch material" would be - and, I might add, neither did you. Nor did I even hint at caring for what their arguments were for not being able to/wanting to do it.

Concerning circle talk, the previous posts you've made, along with this post I'm quoting, are prime examples. See, you are making the claim that certain things were patch material, without defining it. In some cases the burden of proof may rest with the person not making the claim but in this case I pointed you in the right direction. Regardless of what you "claim" they have gone in depth as to why they could not be patched. So what you're doing is questioning EM and their abilities without even knowing the reasons they gave. I don't know you from a can of paint but I trust EM's tech prowess and explanation over yours. The fact that you make claims, admit to not caring about the reasons why your claims are incorrect or false, only proves my point.


It was not my intention to supply a "logical counter-argument". You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that I am trying to formulate such an argument. I am not. Nor did I ever suggest that it would be easy doing these things as part of a patch.


More circle talk. However, you are providing an illogical counter-argument based on nothing but your own bias.


That's a lie. You don't seem to know what a patch is. You could theoretically patch Minesweeper into World of Warcraft, if you really wanted to and wanted to spend the time.

More false claims. You're claiming I don't know what a patch is because I am telling you they explained why it couldn't be patched but you know what a patch is and what can/could be patched even though you don't care about the reasons they provided? LMAO!!!!

Yes, Minesweeper could be patched into WOW. Why? Because WOW already has the tech to run Minesweeper. TML was made AFTER the game was released and made using different tech. The game was rebuilt from the ground up for the WiiU using this new tech. The DC on 360, PS3 and PC are shoddy ports of the WiiU version. But yeah, it's all "patch material" to you. If it was patch material they would not have done it when many of us were requesting TML to be patched into the campaign. They explained why and that was that. If it was patch material they would have simply provided a patch for those who said they wanted a patch for the DC content. I'm on record saying that I trust EM's technical abilities and insight more than yours.


The difference here lies in that I define "patch material" by what it does and what you can expect out of a patch, while you define a patch based on how hard it is to produce. There is no inherent relation between the two.

See above. This is more circle talk as you're putting the horse before the cart. Like I tell many people on here, in my classic posts, when it comes to content creation it isn't as cut and dry as you seem to think. Before you can actually start to work on something (we're talking content creation or things remotely considered as such), you have to first see if it can be done and if you have the resources to do it. So, if a bean counter at EM said, "Can't you just patch it?" and some guy said, "Based on our feasibility studies we can't do it like that because of..." then that is it. However, they gave detailed response after detailed response as to why a patch was NOT feasable yet some of the Johnny-Come-Latelies disregard all of it. Incredible.


Yeah, I see no conflict with what I said.

Because you're operating in bias.


I have to concur with Luckmann on this one. Redesigning a map and integrating the DLC is essentially a patch. Their difficulty in doing so, because of their shortsightedness in designing the Missing Link DLC to not be easily integrated into the main game, is irrelevant to the discussion.

See all of the above.