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Sam_kain
30th Nov 2013, 12:29
So were you satisfied with the SuperNatural element in TR2013 ?!, I'll be honest, to a degree I was, but I was also craving for more.

My main problem is the time, we get introduced to the SuperNatural element after 50% or something from the story, but we don't get to fight them till the last 20%, which is a huge shame.

Personally speaking I want the SuperNatural element to take a stronger front, throw them at us early, make them more varied, harder than the regular enemies, more challenging, more terrifying, .........etc, heck put us in desperate situation where escaping/running if the only way out, and most importantly introduce some SuperNatural bosses, I can't believe how TR2013 miss on that, boss battles in my book is a huge plus and adds alot to the game.

But hey, that's my opinion, what do you think/want ?!

Driber
30th Nov 2013, 13:41
I think it was alright in TR9, but like you said - it could've been more. Maybe a few hard battles with the oni.

The scene where Lara has to sneak past the oni was quite tense and I liked that. I wouldn't have mind seeing more of that :)

Metalrocks
30th Nov 2013, 14:01
was fine for me. made sense to me that they came out more towards the end. kept the tension thinking about when will we really see them all.
i personally prefer more human then supernatural enemies.

pomeranianpuppy
30th Nov 2013, 14:47
Sam and Dean! Yes Yes Yes!

oh not that kind of Supernatural :(

I thought it was the perfect amount in TR9 but now Lara's more open minded maybe there'll be more supernatural stuff in sequel

Jurre
30th Nov 2013, 14:52
You've got to safe the best for last, as the old saying goes. Introducing the samourai zombies only at the end was a smart artistic choice in my opinion; if they were to appear throughout the game they would lose their specialness - you know their mystique and the sense that they are more formidable foes than the humans. They should not become regular enemies; that is what the regular humans are for...

This is one of the things that I think was a very good artistic decision and it gives me a lot of confidence in the team of Crystal Dynamics; they clearly know what they're doing...

Sam_kain
30th Nov 2013, 15:31
@ Driber: that scene was really good.

@ Metalrocks: fair enough :D

@ pomeranianpuppy: someone gets me :D, Sam and Dean should totally make it into a video game or something.

@ Jurre: I totally get where you are coming from, but that problem could be avoided by introducing new enemy types --the supernatural type-- rather than having only one type of them, same goes for boss fights.

Marylinfill
30th Nov 2013, 18:01
well, I was hoping to see monsters they've revealed at the very beginning. Like these here
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/images/13/mar/trcon1.jpg
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/images/13/mar/trcon3.jpg
I believe those are really cool and interesting.
So I hope we will see more of them in the next game. I hate human enemies, they are boring imo.

Sam_kain
30th Nov 2013, 18:38
well, I was hoping to see monsters they've revealed at the very beginning. Like these here
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/images/13/mar/trcon1.jpg
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/images/13/mar/trcon3.jpg
I believe those are really cool and interesting.
So I hope we will see more of them in the next game. I hate human enemies, they are boring imo.

Those enemies would have been so AWESOME, no need to limit it to only one supernatural kind of enemy.

pomeranianpuppy
30th Nov 2013, 19:12
Getting to fight Himiko would've been a great boss fight

Marylinfill
30th Nov 2013, 19:28
Getting to fight Himiko would've been a great boss fight
Well, it depends on how to direct this fight anyway :wave:

dark7angel
30th Nov 2013, 20:47
Getting to fight Himiko would've been a great boss fight

That's what I keep saying. :thumb:

Sam_kain
30th Nov 2013, 22:08
yeah a shame we couldn't fight Himiko, heck even if Himiko is so powerful, it could have been explained as she was not at her full power due to the soul transfer or something.

Jurre
30th Nov 2013, 22:21
I like it that Himiko was kinda like Sauron; a powerful antagonist but more in a immaterial kind of way than a giant brawling monstrosity.

I would have liked it though if there were also samourai guardians on horseback like in that picture. During the big oni battle I could picture a final attack wave of oni cavalry charging the field after the infantry and archers had been dealt with...

pomeranianpuppy
30th Nov 2013, 23:40
Maybe Himiko could've used her weather controlling power to stike lightening bolts at Lara

I remember when I saw the ghost hunter challenge I thought that meant evil spirits were gonna jump out of the forest at Lara but it turned out to be just finding and breaking totems :(

pirate1802
1st Dec 2013, 03:59
You've got to safe the best for last, as the old saying goes. Introducing the samourai zombies only at the end was a smart artistic choice in my opinion; if they were to appear throughout the game they would lose their specialness - you know their mystique and the sense that they are more formidable foes than the humans. They should not become regular enemies; that is what the regular humans are for...

This is one of the things that I think was a very good artistic decision and it gives me a lot of confidence in the team of Crystal Dynamics; they clearly know what they're doing...

Exactly! In a lot of games they throw so many enemies at you all the time that the supernatural element evaporates quickly and it becomes a cartoon show, to put it roughly. I thought it was perfect how it was done in TR9. The Oni first came when I was least expecting them, by then I thought this game was about human enemies and bam! out of nowhere came the ghosts. Still, they kept it reserved and just reminding the player that they are there without having an outright combat with them until the very last. Some very smart moves CD, would love more like those in the next TR..

Marylinfill
1st Dec 2013, 08:42
Don't hit me, but I would love to play the original version of TR that hasn't been released... so many monsters, mystery and miracles...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbJjcBC2rnc

BridgetFisher
3rd Dec 2013, 11:36
I would have liked to fight more supernatural enemies, like ghosts, demons, ninjas, zombies, or pirates, fighting all the crazy fisherman kinda got old after awhile.

Sam_kain
3rd Dec 2013, 12:22
Maybe Himiko could've used her weather controlling power to stike lightening bolts at Lara

I remember when I saw the ghost hunter challenge I thought that meant evil spirits were gonna jump out of the forest at Lara but it turned out to be just finding and breaking totems :(
I thought so too. :mad2:


I would have liked to fight more supernatural enemies, like ghosts, demons, ninjas, zombies, or pirates, fighting all the crazy fisherman kinda got old after awhile.
Ninjas and Pirates are not supernatural, they are real :naughty:
I'd love to fight them non the less, especially Ninjas, I just LOVE ninjas.

AdobeArtist
3rd Dec 2013, 12:35
I think they did the right thing, holding off on the supernatural elements. Keep in mind that this is Lara just starting out, we begin with a very frightened girl who is completely out of her element when she first arrives. She has to be built up, to develop her capabilities in a natural progression, for what someone at various stages can reasonably cope with.

So first it's just learning to endure the environment and the elements. Then it's surviving the natural predators. Then defending against the more ruthless human threats. Only after one has been able to master these levels of dangers can they then expect to tackle the unknowable threats of forces beyond the normal scope.

I mean seriously, if you drop an inexperienced girl and right away say, "OK, now go and fight these monsters that came out of your worst nightmares", anyone just starting out would be paralyzed and likely go insane before being torn apart by the horrors.

Sam_kain
3rd Dec 2013, 16:14
^^ That's true, yet introducing the Oni early could have honed her skills better, especially if they were much stronger, so she would have been pushed to the very limits to survive, maybe a couple of escape options as well incase Lara feels she can't really win the fight.

Your last line kinda reminds me 'Call of Cthulhu Dark Corners of The Earth', I loved that game.

Marylinfill
3rd Dec 2013, 18:36
In my opinion sending Lara to destroy hundreds of fully armed men is even more unrealistic than supernature version. Nice "beginning" for a young girl, I say =) What's next, OMG? Atom bombs, thousands of orcs, Lara VS Devil? Just kidding =) I hope the next TR will be more believable anyway.

Jurre
3rd Dec 2013, 19:23
Starting out or not, I think supernatural elements should never be too abundant because when they are they become too commonplace and lose their mystique, and the game will lose it's touch with the real world. The same I think goes for things that may not be supernatural but are extraordinary in some other way.

You know how in TR Underworld Lara stumbles upon a dead zombie yeti. She doesn't look the least bit surprised and starts to analyse the thing in a bored monotone voice. HELLO! There's a dead zombie yeti next to you, how about a little acknowledgement of this highly unusual situation??

But then again, she had come across a whole lot more fantastical things at that point so it wasn't all that special to her anymore. A dead zombie yeti, it's like another day at the office. That is why it was such a good idea to let that incarnation of Lara retire.

AdobeArtist
4th Dec 2013, 00:36
^^ That's true, yet introducing the Oni early could have honed her skills better, especially if they were much stronger, so she would have been pushed to the very limits to survive, maybe a couple of escape options as well incase Lara feels she can't really win the fight.


whaaaaaaaaaaat??? You can't be serious :scratch::scratch:

That's like saying a knight in early training can take on a dragon to hone his skills when he still hasn't beaten the lowest ranking knight.

Or a body builder with only 2 weeks experience is going to go right to 200lb barbell bench press to build muscle.

How about having a 130 lb boxer go up against MIKE TYSON for his 3rd bout? That ought to develop his skills in only 1/10 the time, right?

You get my meaning? It's one thing to challenge someone that pushes their boundaries and makes them grow beyond them. But it still has to happen within reason, setting challenges that matches their stage of development. Too much too soon just crushes a person with no chance of overcoming it.

Metalrocks
4th Dec 2013, 04:45
what adobe said.
taking things one step at a time. plus, its also a training for the player as well. suddenly fighting off these creatures??? now thats cheap and very odd to have them at the beginning of the game.
lara was also surprised to see these creatures alive. now imagine lara fighting off this huge creature after being captured by one of them and hanging over several dead bodies. hat would have been very unbelievable.

Sam_kain
4th Dec 2013, 09:10
whaaaaaaaaaaat??? You can't be serious :scratch::scratch:

That's like saying a knight in early training can take on a dragon to hone his skills when he still hasn't beaten the lowest ranking knight.

Or a body builder with only 2 weeks experience is going to go right to 200lb barbell bench press to build muscle.

How about having a 130 lb boxer go up against MIKE TYSON for his 3rd bout? That ought to develop his skills in only 1/10 the time, right?

You get my meaning? It's one thing to challenge someone that pushes their boundaries and makes them grow beyond them. But it still has to happen within reason, setting challenges that matches their stage of development. Too much too soon just crushes a person with no chance of overcoming it.
haha come on, let's leave real life out of the equation, this is a game after all, so progress is much much different :nut:

what you are saying makes sense in real life, in a video game we have the liberty to break that, I am not saying put Lara against monsters from the first minute, but 50% in the game ?!, that was pretty long enough, by the 75% mark they lost all kinds of being dangerous, they were easy to kill and not really challenging, Lara wasn't put through hell fighting them, meanwhile if they'd have been introduced early, It could have been a different story.

pirate1802
4th Dec 2013, 14:24
I would have liked to fight more supernatural enemies, like ghosts, demons, ninjas, zombies, or pirates, fighting all the crazy fisherman kinda got old after awhile.

Since when are pirates supernatural? I am offended..

Driber
4th Dec 2013, 14:33
Pirate ghosts are...

http://southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com/images/shows/southpark/vertical_video/clip_collections/death/Zombieland8.jpg

Metalrocks
4th Dec 2013, 16:13
Pirate ghosts are...

http://southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com/images/shows/southpark/vertical_video/clip_collections/death/Zombieland8.jpg

jhnoeq_scooby-doo-cartoons-picture-and-wallpapers-1.jpg

Marylinfill
4th Dec 2013, 16:45
When I saw the TR9 poster for the first time, I've noticed a guy in a WW2 helmet. Back then I thought - Wow! This is a place where time is mixing, so Lara has to face samurai, Nazis, pirates, Spanish missionaries and other people from other ages?! Too bad everything in this game was about the Evil Weather Forecast hosted by a corpse.:o
And here is another amazing art, I thought it was a concept too...
http://digital-art-gallery.com/oid/69/640x379_12539_Surreal_Valley_2d_fan_art_surrealism_fantasy_tomb_raider_anomaly_picture_image_digital_art.jpg
http://digital-art-gallery.com/artist/4982

AdobeArtist
5th Dec 2013, 02:34
haha come on, let's leave real life out of the equation, this is a game after all, so progress is much much different :nut:

what you are saying makes sense in real life, in a video game we have the liberty to break that, I am not saying put Lara against monsters from the first minute, but 50% in the game ?!, that was pretty long enough, by the 75% mark they lost all kinds of being dangerous, they were easy to kill and not really challenging, Lara wasn't put through hell fighting them, meanwhile if they'd have been introduced early, It could have been a different story.

"This is a video game" is no excuse to dismiss realism. But in truth it's not really realism we're talking about but verisimilitude. Which is the means of establishing believability within the confines of the fiction. Or another way to put it, creating the convincing illusion of realism enabling the audience to forget it's a work of fiction they're seeing and accept the "reality" presented to them. This is the foundation of Suspension of Disbelief.

And SOD is supported so long as the story is consistent to rules of its own world. Take Star Trek; the whole beaming technology is still founded on the principles of real science, of the structure of matter and its component atoms. So there's enough real science to establish the foundation of extraordinary technology. Where magic and fantasy is concerned, each world establishes its own rules as to how the magic works, whether that's tapping into cosmic forces, enchanted runes, the relics of old gods, or what have you.

BUT... where sci-fi and fantasy elements are free to apply their own rules (and must be consistent within that) the more grounded elements place expectation to match parameters people are familiar with based on common frame of reference.

So while an alien can be bullet proof and fly (Superman) with the explanation of his alien physiology, a normal human would be expected to bleed when shot, and should even fear the prospect of being shot. No matter how well crafted the fantastical components are written, the whole story falls apart if the human elements aren't properly grounded to make the unreal seem as if it exists along side the real.

pirate1802
5th Dec 2013, 03:19
^^Well said mayte. :D

AdobeArtist
5th Dec 2013, 04:06
^^Well said mayte. :D

y'arrrrrgh :naughty:

Driber
5th Dec 2013, 14:54
I don't really want to get into the whole "realistic vs unrealistic for TR" debate yet again, heh, but I would just like to point out to people on both sides of the coin that whether something is deemed "realistic" or not - it doesn't really matter, because at the end of the day we are all talking about personal preference.

We all have our own personal limits on where we would like see the devs draw a line in the realism aspect. It doesn't mean that one view is right and the other view is wrong.

Also, let us all remember that our personal limits are constantly changing. Remember how a lot of us were fed up with the supernatural elements in TR and we wanted the games to be more "realistic" and for a long time during the TR9 campaign we thought that this would happen.... and then it turned out the game had just as much supernatural elements as most of the previous games and we all (well, most of us) ended up loving TR9 anyway....? ;)

XylophoneDealers
5th Dec 2013, 15:35
I think it was alright in TR9, but like you said - it could've been more. Maybe a few hard battles with the oni.

The scene where Lara has to sneak past the oni was quite tense and I liked that. I wouldn't have mind seeing more of that :)

I loved that scene. And the idea that you were completely outnumbered and overpowered by the Oni. What would be quite nice in the next game is early supernatural elements, then a while away from it but leading up to the end of the game. And more tense moments. And more plot twists. Like American Horror Story: Coven

XylophoneDealers
5th Dec 2013, 15:36
When I saw the TR9 poster for the first time, I've noticed a guy in a WW2 helmet. Back then I thought - Wow! This is a place where time is mixing, so Lara has to face samurai, Nazis, pirates, Spanish missionaries and other people from other ages?! Too bad everything in this game was about the Evil Weather Forecast hosted by a corpse.:o
And here is another amazing art, I thought it was a concept too...
http://digital-art-gallery.com/oid/69/640x379_12539_Surreal_Valley_2d_fan_art_surrealism_fantasy_tomb_raider_anomaly_picture_image_digital_art.jpg
http://digital-art-gallery.com/artist/4982

Oh I saw this too. I loved it. I thought that there should be more of these anomalies in the game :3 sorry for the double post, btw

_Ninja_
5th Dec 2013, 17:25
An oversaturation of supernatural elements cheapens their presence imo. They should be surprising special events.

Sam_kain
5th Dec 2013, 18:18
"This is a video game" is no excuse to dismiss realism. But in truth it's not really realism we're talking about but verisimilitude. Which is the means of establishing believability within the confines of the fiction. Or another way to put it, creating the convincing illusion of realism enabling the audience to forget it's a work of fiction they're seeing and accept the "reality" presented to them. This is the foundation of Suspension of Disbelief.
we agree on that, hence why the growth that takes a human 3 months can happen in 3hrs within a game, but the whole concept of realism/suspension of disbelief shouldn't get in the way of games, unless the game is build from the ground up to support realism as much as possible.



And SOD is supported so long as the story is consistent to rules of its own world. Take Star Trek; the whole beaming technology is still founded on the principles of real science, of the structure of matter and its component atoms. So there's enough real science to establish the foundation of extraordinary technology. Where magic and fantasy is concerned, each world establishes its own rules as to how the magic works, whether that's tapping into cosmic forces, enchanted runes, the relics of old gods, or what have you.

BUT... where sci-fi and fantasy elements are free to apply their own rules (and must be consistent within that) the more grounded elements place expectation to match parameters people are familiar with based on common frame of reference.

So while an alien can be bullet proof and fly (Superman) with the explanation of his alien physiology, a normal human would be expected to bleed when shot, and should even fear the prospect of being shot. No matter how well crafted the fantastical components are written, the whole story falls apart if the human elements aren't properly grounded to make the unreal seem as if it exists along side the real.
I will leave Star Trek out since I have not watched the movies ((don't shoot me :D)), but as for Superman, well the explanation doesn't make it any less unrealistic.

In case of TR realism isn't something to worry about, cause many aspects of the game kinda go against realism, I have no problem with some realism elements here and there, but ditching away some supernatural stuff cause the realm of realism doesn't allow their introduction early is kinda meeeh to me.

The whole issue here is that TR is not a 100% or even 80% realistic game, so we could argue back and forth between suspension of disbelief, so in my opinion introducing the Oni earlier would not have affected it any way, heck as I said before in other posts, with some clever design choices the Oni at the beginning could be more of a challenge than the player can handle, rather than having them near the end where they are actually a piece of cake to deal with.

And of course as Driber said, when we argue about realism, neither me nor you is wrong, it all comes to preference.


I don't really want to get into the whole "realistic vs unrealistic for TR" debate yet again, heh, but I would just like to point out to people on both sides of the coin that whether something is deemed "realistic" or not - it doesn't really matter, because at the end of the day we are all talking about personal preference.

We all have our own personal limits on where we would like see the devs draw a line in the realism aspect. It doesn't mean that one view is right and the other view is wrong.

Also, let us all remember that our personal limits are constantly changing. Remember how a lot of us were fed up with the supernatural elements in TR and we wanted the games to be more "realistic" and for a long time during the TR9 campaign we thought that this would happen.... and then it turned out the game had just as much supernatural elements as most of the previous games and we all (well, most of us) ended up loving TR9 anyway....? ;)
Can't argue there :D

& like 200% agree with the bolded parts

Andy64
12th Dec 2013, 16:27
For me there wasn't enough animals or supernatural enemies. I would have liked to have seen more creatures that would charge at Lara or try blast her as the game ended up feeling a little too much like shootout round every corner.

kadosho
14th Dec 2013, 05:53
Finally catching up with this chapter, I feel that they were trying to work out everything to suit both us longtime fans, and new ones to enjoy the ride. Its meant to be intense, to keep you going past every encounter. I do admit it could have been more fun with extra interactivity with supernatural segments. But what we do get to dish out, its worthwhile in the long run. Lara being a heroine which reminds me of a space bounty hunter.. a name in whispers..

VOLCOM20lovesLARA
12th Jan 2014, 05:22
Like these here
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/images/13/mar/trcon1.jpg
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/images/13/mar/trcon3.jpg
I believe those are really cool and interesting.




And here is another amazing art, I thought it was a concept too...
http://digital-art-gallery.com/oid/69/640x379_12539_Surreal_Valley_2d_fan_art_surrealism_fantasy_tomb_raider_anomaly_picture_image_digital_art.jpg
http://digital-art-gallery.com/artist/4982

:eek::eek::eek::eek:
literally jaw dropping. i had seen the first image before,
but the two after that SHOULD have been in the game. no questions
asked. definitely craving more supernatural goods in TR10.

Sophiafan
15th Jan 2014, 15:57
TR (2013) seemed to have far too much men with guns and not enough 'creature type' enemies that would mix things up a bit for the combat. I thought the wolves were the best combat in the game and wanted to see some bigger mutated animal creatures as after all what was on the island was unknown. Maybe the developers got worried it would be too much like Lost if they did though.

Metalrocks
15th Jan 2014, 16:04
TR (2013) seemed to have far too much men with guns and not enough 'creature type' enemies that would mix things up a bit for the combat. I thought the wolves were the best combat in the game and wanted to see some bigger mutated animal creatures as after all what was on the island was unknown. Maybe the developers got worried it would be too much like Lost if they did though.

possibly or just a very slow warm up for lara that she has to deal with more then just human enemies. lara was surprised to see solaris running around and for new players, it will be as well.
now lara has a feeling for it and will not be to surprised to deal with undead/supernatural elements/enemies on her next adventure.

zwanzig_zwoelf
5th May 2014, 00:16
bro id like to see zombies in the new tomb raider they would really add a lot to the game like woo im so scary and im like wee dont kill me zombie and run away then take my gun music wubwubwub and shoot my way out of this mess id really enjoy zombies in tombs heh heh heh sounds really fun

Heidi_W
5th May 2014, 06:42
I thought there was quite a bit of supernatural activity going on in TR9, what with the Oni, Himiko, the storms, etc - they have to balance that out with a certain amount of realism to avoid going over the top, imho, and they did that quite well I thought.

Wh1t3Kn1te
5th May 2014, 12:18
i always like it when they have supernatural elements in games, but im very picky when it comes to the protagonist and what they use to combat said supernatural elements.

for instance one of the reasons i have a lot of respect for Lara is because she wont use magic to fight the supernatural forces, well except for one time in angel of darkness.

one thing they could do more of though is having one really think about where the supernatural element came from and what its purpose is. that was one thing i felt was weak about the story, that the island was only like it was because himiko was disturbed in the middle of switching bodies.

dark7angel
5th May 2014, 12:37
for instance one of the reasons i have a lot of respect for Lara is because she wont use magic to fight the supernatural forces, well except for one time in angel of darkness.

I agree with this, though that one time in AoD didn't bother me since the daggers didn't really give her powers. And that's what really bothered me in LAU, with Lara using Excalibur and Mjolnir (and the other accessories). I hope this doesn't make a return...

BridgetFisher
5th May 2014, 17:30
I also wanted more of a supernatural theme, or anything outside the realm of normal. What struck me was 99% of the enemies in the game minus the last level were just humans, or crazy fisherman, well they just looked like fisherman to me. Now everytime I go to Maine, Im always a bit edgy when down at the docks.

For an adventurer I think her enemies should be adventurous. I didnt get the feeling in TR2013 she was an adventurer at all, just some random average girl stuck in a tough situation. Id like to see the stories enemies revolve more around supernatural or just superawesome things, for example instead of a fisherman, a half werewolf half fisherman, or half vampire, even half demon would be cool, but they would need to look like demoons, not just glowing eyes, some games just add glowing eyes I notice and it doesnt really have any effect for me.