PDA

View Full Version : The Worst thing about the director's cut



ZakKa89
5th Nov 2013, 17:53
The download size, and the fact it's only standalone. I was hoping it was like a patch I could install over my installation.

So here I am, back from vacation. Bought the DC as soon as I could on steam. Started downloading, but turned off steam for a reason I forgot.Before I went to work, I started steam, assuming it would automatically resume the download.

I just came back from work:

"steam update required"

Nooooooo, steam did not even start yet! :(

Of course it's my own fault for not checking if steam launched succesfully. In my haste to work I just opened steam and scrammed. It's still a huge download next to my other DEHR installation.

Jerion
5th Nov 2013, 18:00
Given that patches are on the way, in your case it might have been a blessing in disguise. :)

harry747
5th Nov 2013, 20:41
IMHO the worst thing about the directors cut is that
- either there is no mac version
- or if there is, i can't find it.

so where is it?

Pinky_Powers
5th Nov 2013, 20:44
No. The worst part of the Director's Cut is, lamentably, another Steam issue. You cannot gift your old copies. They just sit, wholly useless, in your library, doing nobody a jot of good.

Apart from that, I actually prefer the DC to be a standalone. A lot less messy on the coding side, and probably a lot more stable because of it--in spite of the handful of issues we do have.

Sekuro
6th Nov 2013, 11:07
Given that patches are on the way, in your case it might have been a blessing in disguise. :)

Interesting. Is there a more specific date when these patches (plural?) will come out and what issues they'll address?

I’ve been really looking forward to the Director’s Cut and was ready to buy it at day one. But seeing all the problems this version of the game apparently has I was holding my money back. I’m still very much interested in the Director’s Cut though and hope that all the problems will get patched out soon. :-)

Krudo
6th Nov 2013, 14:08
The download size, and the fact it's only standalone. I was hoping it was like a patch I could install over my installation.

So here I am, back from vacation. Bought the DC as soon as I could on steam. Started downloading, but turned off steam for a reason I forgot.Before I went to work, I started steam, assuming it would automatically resume the download.

I just came back from work:

"steam update required"

Nooooooo, steam did not even start yet! :(

Of course it's my own fault for not checking if steam launched succesfully. In my haste to work I just opened steam and scrammed. It's still a huge download next to my other DEHR installation.

What's the worst thing about the Director's Cut. For starters the graphics compared with the original version are very poor and of low quality.

1. I have an EVGA NVidia GeForce 770 SC 2GB GFX card and all other games in this card are just mind blowing. But the Director's Cut is like playing Unreal from back in the day.

2. The Inventory & Stack Mode doesn't work for the Director's Cut which has really ****** *** a lot of people including me. Bring back the Inventory & Stack Mod or make the old one work with the Director's Cut.


On the subject of Unreal... How come Eidos used the same music for Unreal, not that I am complaining because I loved the music in all of the Unreal games right up to the last one. Just thought that I would add this question.

Darthassin
6th Nov 2013, 17:08
Worst thing - terrible graphics - by far.

Jerion
6th Nov 2013, 18:51
No specifics on a patch date, we'll post when the first one appears.



On the subject of Unreal... How come Eidos used the same music for Unreal, not that I am complaining because I loved the music in all of the Unreal games right up to the last one. Just thought that I would add this question.

Huh? :scratch:

GeekMom
6th Nov 2013, 18:55
My graphics looked really bad when I launched the game. I went into the video and set it to trilinear and it look the same as the original to me.

Psychomorph
13th Nov 2013, 02:28
Worst thing about the Directors Cut is the fact that I couldn't resist the Steam sale and thus didn't buy a boxed version as intended. :(

Dunno, I launched DC and without changing settings the game ran not good. I have GTX 680, i7 3770K and 16GB RAM. Should be fine, shouldn't it?

teh roxxors
14th Dec 2013, 01:03
The DC has serious performance issues. The previous version of the game runs better, with a couple of Registry tweaks.

Reckless Angel
14th Dec 2013, 14:53
The worst thing about it... is that you new game+ doesn't include your weapons.

sure they never said that would be included... but they also never corrected anyone when they talked about looking forward to *that specific part of the newgame+* ...

then again, what can you expect from a Game designer that didn't even know what New Game+ was before the release of the original.

CyberP
14th Dec 2013, 15:52
then again, what can you expect from a Game designer that didn't even know what New Game+ was before the release of the original.

*Sigh*

JCpies
15th Dec 2013, 20:14
I'm glad that New Game+ has annoyed people that like New Game+.

Because New Game+ would never have worked in a logical or entertaining way on Human Revolution.

HERESY
16th Dec 2013, 05:15
I'm glad that New Game+ has annoyed people that like New Game+.

Because New Game+ would never have worked in a logical or entertaining way on Human Revolution.

Opinion. The bold.

JCpies
16th Dec 2013, 11:58
The un-bolded part is also an opinion!

HERESY
16th Dec 2013, 19:44
The un-bolded part is also an opinion!

Actually it depends on how you look at it. But still, what is fun and entertaining to you may be a waste of time to others. What is fun and entertaining to them may be a waste of time to you. This is why your claim that "New Game+ would never have worked in a logical or entertaining way on Human Revolution" is an opinion.

Shralla
16th Dec 2013, 20:50
Opinion. The bold.

Only sort of. The purpose of New Game+ is to provide either additional unlocks or additional challenges that were not available in the first playthrough. Given that you can unlock all but four augmentation levels by the time you beat the game, and the fact that New Game+ doesn't make the game any harder, there's not really any point for it to be there. If anything they should have rebalanced XP to give New Game+ more of a purpose, but they didn't.

neoWilks
16th Dec 2013, 22:06
Only sort of. The purpose of New Game+ is to provide either additional unlocks or additional challenges that were not available in the first playthrough. Given that you can unlock all but four augmentation levels by the time you beat the game, and the fact that New Game+ doesn't make the game any harder, there's not really any point for it to be there. If anything they should have rebalanced XP to give New Game+ more of a purpose, but they didn't.
This seems like an unnecessarily narrow view of what New Game+ is. Taking even a quick glance at the wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Game_Plus) shows that New Game+ has involved a wide number of variations since the idea was first conceived.

Difficulty is obviously one such implementation. Another, and one that I think would be interesting in a Deus Ex game, is the option to play through scenarios without the limitations faced in the original run. This is what New Game+ would allow. Instead of being restricted in how you approach an early-game situation due to certain augmentations being more valuable late-game or weapons being unavailable, you have all these tools at your disposal from the beginning. It allows a greater level of experimentation than was originally available.

Given that, and the fact that New Game+ is entirely optional, I'm surprised there's any disagreement here at all.

Shralla
16th Dec 2013, 22:22
Well the game design suffered significantly from the XP imbalance. The implementation of NG+ was a perfect opportunity to fix those grievous design errors, but they literally just slapped it on. They designed the game from the ground up to essentially give you access to everything regardless of what augs you had anyway, so there weren't really any "limitations" to overcome in the early game. As far as choice and consequence go, HR was a flop.

teh roxxors
16th Dec 2013, 22:41
Frame rates.

I couldn't get past that, and actually quit playing after the first mission. Walking around Detroit, frame rates dropped into the teens at random. The regular version didn't do that, so I gave up on the Director's Cut and went back to playing the regular version.

Now I preach to others to avoid the Director's Cut like the plague.

Too bad Edios is in no hurry to patch it up to a playable standard.

HERESY
16th Dec 2013, 22:57
Only sort of. The purpose of New Game+ is to provide either additional unlocks or additional challenges that were not available in the first playthrough. Given that you can unlock all but four augmentation levels by the time you beat the game, and the fact that New Game+ doesn't make the game any harder, there's not really any point for it to be there. If anything they should have rebalanced XP to give New Game+ more of a purpose, but they didn't.

Incorrect. Refer to WILKS' reply. What they should have done, could have done, would have done, etc, is not the point here. The point is what is fun and entertaining to you may be a waste of time to others. What is fun and entertaining to them may be a waste of time to you.

Shralla
17th Dec 2013, 00:43
There's nothing "fun and entertaining" to anybody about having a NG+ whose only purpose is to unlock the last four praxis points, which ultimately doesn't affect the flow of the early game at all. I have yet to see anybody at all happy about the implementation of NG+, even the people who originally requested the feature. What we got was slapdash nonsense in place of an actual NG+.

HERESY
17th Dec 2013, 04:35
There's nothing "fun and entertaining" to anybody about having a NG+ whose only purpose is to unlock the last four praxis points, which ultimately doesn't affect the flow of the early game at all. I have yet to see anybody at all happy about the implementation of NG+, even the people who originally requested the feature. What we got was slapdash nonsense in place of an actual NG+.

You aren't making any sense. You can't speak for everyone as you DON'T know what everyone finds valuable or entertaining. You can speak for yourself and those who have voiced there concerns and complaints and that is it. You DON'T speak for all those who own the DC and requested NG+.

Shralla
17th Dec 2013, 05:08
You aren't making any sense.

You're really falling apart. This is all you ever say now.

HERESY
17th Dec 2013, 06:21
You're really falling apart. This is all you ever say now.

Not true and proof of this can be found in the fact that you have nothing to say about not being able to speak for everyone I mentioned.

neoWilks
17th Dec 2013, 09:16
Well the game design suffered significantly from the XP imbalance. The implementation of NG+ was a perfect opportunity to fix those grievous design errors, but they literally just slapped it on. They designed the game from the ground up to essentially give you access to everything regardless of what augs you had anyway, so there weren't really any "limitations" to overcome in the early game. As far as choice and consequence go, HR was a flop.
I'm talking tactical limitations. Early in the game, certain augmentations are simply more useful. Or at least, certain augs have fewer opportunities to be used. This will encourage certain selections over others. A New Game+ mode where the player starts with all of their augmentations frees them from choosing a less useful aug early in the game. It also necessarily influences combat as you're now engaging early enemies with speed enhancements, accuracy, jump height, etc that you did not have before.

And augs aren't all I was talking about. I was also talking about equipment, and this is mysteriously missing in HR's NG+ mode. This could have allowed players the opportunity to take on enemies with fully modified weapons from the beginning of the game. Or allowed the judicious hoarder to gather up all of a rare ammo type and save it for their second run, allowing them to use what would have been an occasional-use weapon as their primary.

That second part leaves the NG+ in HR somewhat disappointing. Regardless, I don't see why it's an issue for some people. I look at it the same way I look at cheat codes in a GTA game. Who cares if you can summon a tank at will? It's just another way to play the game (which is nice when you've already seen everything there is to see). Challenge or new content is not what I'm looking for at this point. Rather new ways of interacting with the existing content.

CyberP
17th Dec 2013, 11:02
Instead of being restricted in how you approach an early-game situation due to certain augmentations being more valuable late-game or weapons being unavailable, you have all these tools at your disposal from the beginning. It allows a greater level of experimentation than was originally available.


Not in the case of Human Revolution. Any aug is available to you if you have the praxis. By the time you finish in Detroit
you already have most of the useful augs. One exception is Milwaukee Junction, where you only get 1 praxis, but it's a short mission and new augs would do nothing for me except make the game easier.
I enjoy NG+ when it is also implemented with increased challenge. This didn't happen. There's more to say, but I've already discussed this topic before. NG+, as it stands, is no different from grabbing the burger mod and spawning yourself some augs, killing challenge and what little choice and consequence existed in the aug system.

I couldn't care less if NG+ exists in HR tbh, but it would be a detriment to Deus Ex 1, that's for sure. I have given reason why in another thread.

Reckless Angel
17th Dec 2013, 11:44
For me, NewGame+ in games have always been about experimentation and unleashing the wackier aspects of the game.

At this point I have already played through the game, seen the story, with all its plot-twists. (Less so with games like Mass Effect that give you choices that lock you out from certain story paths. HR doesn't do that. (whether you let Sandorval commit suicide or not have no bearing on the story, only what items and XP you get.))
So at the point where you start a New Game+ in a game such as this, balance is moot. You've already proven yourself capable of beating the game.
Now you get to experiment (what gun is the most practical when upgraded fully? Which gun is more fun? I always felt it would be a waste to upgrade the rocket launcher... And what is the plasma rifle like when upgraded? If I already had my fully upgraded pistol, I would feel like I couold experiment more with the other weapons)

And anyway, it would have been a choice.
If at the start of the ng+ you didn't want to keep your guns, you could just throw them away in the first mission. Voilá, you'll never see them again. Credits? Credits in HR does not have any value (you can buy anything you want the first time you come across a shop).

So why exactly are you complaining about people wanting more choice?

CyberP
17th Dec 2013, 13:29
So why exactly are you complaining about people wanting more choice?

OK, I love repeating myself anyway :p

In Human Revolution, no complaints really. I'd rather it not be there but only out of principle. As you said, testing the plas. rifle or rock. launcher fully modded would be nice, but here is why I wouldn't want it for Deus Ex 1, and I'll start by going off of your Mass Effect comment:


At this point I have already played through the game, seen the story, with all its plot-twists. (Less so with games like Mass Effect that give you choices that lock you out from certain story paths

Deus Ex 1 is renowned for replayability, most fans have played it over and over because there is so much dialogue, secrets, choice and consequence in the gameplay systems and so on. Now lets say DX offered me NG+ back when I first played it, it would actually cut replayability, probably in half. I'd have experimented with all augs upgraded (if it allowed this), all weapons fully upgraded, and all skills fully upgraded after two-three playthroughs. Challenge would be non-existent, as would choice and consequence. Instead Deus Ex limits you, forces you to experiment with different builds, retains challenge and choice and consequence, I could start a fresh playthrough right now and have a blast deciding what upgrade to take next, whilst Human Revolution it's been there done that, the choices are no-brainers.
This limitation good because each playthrough you can discover new dialogue and reactions, secrets/minor details hidden in the levels, and yet the gameplay is still fresh. Deus Ex with NG+ the gameplay would be a little dry after 2-3 playthroughs. And yes it's still an option, but only for those who understand. If you see "YOU HAVE UNLOCKED NG+" you aren't exactly going to ignore it unless you understand this.

But yes, NG+ implemented well in Human Revolution could actually be a benefit due to an overall lack of choice and consequence, it would be good if NG+ increased challenge in various ways and allowed you to keep your gear. As it stands in HR right now NG+ is near worthless to others, and completely worthless to me.

What Human Revolution really needs is the Fan's Cut edition :p a fantastic game made exceptional. I couldn't exactly take credit for it, cause making the game, that's the hard part, I'd just be making a mod/DLC, an expansive one but easy nonetheless.

HERESY
17th Dec 2013, 17:01
We are talking about HR. What the original has, or what would or would not have worked in ED is of no value.

CyberP
17th Dec 2013, 21:52
Silence Troll.

HERESY
17th Dec 2013, 22:02
Silence Troll.

You shouldn't say that about yourself. Reckless and Wilks were talking about HR, yet you typed on and on about why you wouldn't want to see it in ED. This thread isn't about ED, it's about the DC.

Keep this obvious fact in mind.

Shralla
17th Dec 2013, 22:39
For me, NewGame+ in games have always been about experimentation and unleashing the wackier aspects of the game.

My issue with the NG+ in this is that the game is not designed in such a way as to make the ability to have all your augs in the beginning of the game that "wacky." Ultimately you're left feeling significantly less powerful at the end of the game than you did in the original Deus Ex, where if you had all your augs at the beginning it would have been genuinely wacky. But Human Revolution is a much more "grounded" experience. You can't jump as high or run as fast. Your augs are not as potent or significant, which is a downfall of the game that I never really talked about before. You don't feel obscenely powerful at the end of the game, or even after you unlock literally all the augmentations, or even after you take those augmentations back to deal with guys at the beginning of the game.

It's just a lackluster implementation of a mode that I usually like, and nothing about it makes me want to restart the game.

BridgetFisher
18th Dec 2013, 04:57
My issue with the NG+ in this is that the game is not designed in such a way as to make the ability to have all your augs in the beginning of the game that "wacky." Ultimately you're left feeling significantly less powerful at the end of the game than you did in the original Deus Ex, where if you had all your augs at the beginning it would have been genuinely wacky. But Human Revolution is a much more "grounded" experience. You can't jump as high or run as fast. Your augs are not as potent or significant, which is a downfall of the game that I never really talked about before. You don't feel obscenely powerful at the end of the game, or even after you unlock literally all the augmentations, or even after you take those augmentations back to deal with guys at the beginning of the game.

It's just a lackluster implementation of a mode that I usually like, and nothing about it makes me want to restart the game.

That new hitman game sucked, haha I felt bad for the suckers that bought it. The sniper challenge was fun, but the game itself forgettable.

DE was very well made where no matter what augs you had it didnt really make you into a "god" type character and still required strategy on the part of the player. If anything they gave the player more options to strategize than less which was brilliant design!! YaY!

Cyberhuman
18th Dec 2013, 16:06
My issue with the NG+ in this is that the game is not designed in such a way as to make the ability to have all your augs in the beginning of the game that "wacky." Ultimately you're left feeling significantly less powerful at the end of the game than you did in the original Deus Ex, where if you had all your augs at the beginning it would have been genuinely wacky. But Human Revolution is a much more "grounded" experience. You can't jump as high or run as fast. Your augs are not as potent or significant, which is a downfall of the game that I never really talked about before. You don't feel obscenely powerful at the end of the game, or even after you unlock literally all the augmentations, or even after you take those augmentations back to deal with guys at the beginning of the game.

It's just a lackluster implementation of a mode that I usually like, and nothing about it makes me want to restart the game.

I disagree with some of what you say here; in a recent playthrough I felt supremly powerful at the end of the game. Fully upgraded Dermal Armor, fully upgraded Typhoon, high level Hacking Device and Cloaking Device; this was enough to give me a feeling of great power and a reliable ability to control the outcome of a situation.

Shralla
18th Dec 2013, 22:03
DE was very well made where no matter what augs you had it didnt really make you into a "god" type character and still required strategy on the part of the player.

The game literally has the word "god" in the title, in reference to the main character. You were meant to feel like a "god" type character at the end of the first game. That's part of the progression of classic Deus Ex. They threw more powerful guys at you to balance it out, but you were still dealing with a fair amount of basic soldiers and thugs on the street. Also the boss fights were done much better, giving bad guys the same abilities that you yourself had to remind you of how powerful you yourself had become. At the end of this game, I feel slightly more impressive than at the beginning, and that's about it. Augmented jumping is barely an improvement, augmented running is barely an improvement (you can't modify speed at all, for instance), the Icarus Landing System is lame...


I disagree with some of what you say here; in a recent playthrough I felt supremly powerful at the end of the game. Fully upgraded Dermal Armor, fully upgraded Typhoon, high level Hacking Device and Cloaking Device; this was enough to give me a feeling of great power and a reliable ability to control the outcome of a situation.

Well everybody knows the typhoon is horrendously overpowered. High level hacking didn't make me feel powerful at all. It just made the harder things easier. You couldn't level up hacking enough to make it feel effortless, which is especially off-putting since there is a downright stupid number of upgrades for the hacking. Dermal armor was a joke. By the time you unlock all of it, the bad guys have guns whose damage matches your increase in health, more or less, and you're never dealing with "regular" bad guys again. Some people may have not liked the ability to bullet sponge in the first Deus Ex, but being an activated aug regulated by energy made it able to negate more damage and make you feel like more of a badass while still maintaining balance.

Cloaking isn't really my thing. Doesn't help you be an unstoppable killing machine anymore than third-person cover and silent running, and certainly doesn't really make you noticeably more powerful. The best thing it does is let you bypass laser and security cameras. The strength aug is useful but hardly impressive. The fact that there's only one level of it doesn't help at all, and the fact that you can't kill middle of the game bad guys by throwing a vending machine at them is ridiculous. Overall they just added more types of augs that had less functionality, and at the end of the game you weren't left feeling anywhere near as powerful as at the end of DX1. And imagine if DX1 had a NG+ mode where you could install all those augs you skipped out on? That would be a meaningful implementation of NG+.

CyberP
18th Dec 2013, 23:20
The game literally has the word "god" in the title, in reference to the main character. You were meant to feel like a "god" type character at the end of the first game.

You only achieve Deus Ex Machina status when/if you merge with Helios.


Augmented jumping is barely an improvement,

Eh? It may not be as good as DX1's jumping with Speed Enhancement but it's still one of the most useful and fun augs in the game.


augmented running is barely an improvement (you can't modify speed at all, for instance),

Yes you can modify movement speed, though sprinting speed only.


the Icarus Landing System is lame...

A great concept, less than stellar execution. If it had to be manually activated, didn't stop time and was in first person perspective it would be amazing.


Well everybody knows the typhoon is horrendously overpowered.

Yes. At least it's limited by (generously placed) ammo though


High level hacking didn't make me feel powerful at all.

As powerful as computers skill in DX1, though perhaps implemented better. Computers skill was ridiculous in DX1, easy mode. Lvl 1 you can turn off cameras, read emails and have access to special options, the latter is the big one.


You couldn't level up hacking enough to make it feel effortless, which is especially off-putting since there is a downright stupid number of upgrades for the hacking.

Huh? Capture lvl 5 and between a ton of stop/nukes, it's easy. That's all I get that's hacking related. To make it effortless upgrade Hacking: Stealth as well.

But yes, lots of useless hacking augs.


Dermal armor was a joke. By the time you unlock all of it, the bad guys have guns whose damage matches your increase in health, more or less, and you're never dealing with "regular" bad guys again.
Some people may have not liked the ability to bullet sponge in the first Deus Ex, but being an activated aug regulated by energy made it able to negate more damage and make you feel like more of a badass while still maintaining balance.

Dermal armour was perfect in DX:HR, not like that joke of an aug ballistic protection- up to 80% of ballistics/melee damage negated and can be combined with ballistic vests, the even worse regen aug and spamming medkits with the stop time inventory.

Seriously, ridiculous. All of that got a huge nerf in GMDX except the inventory still pauses game time, which I actually wanted to make like the other Immersive Sims and have inventory sorting in real time exclusive to hardcore mode, hardcore and simulated.


Cloaking isn't really my thing. Doesn't help you be an unstoppable killing machine anymore than third-person cover and silent running,


! Please don't put cloak on the same level as third person cover.

If we are talking about HR's cloak, it was OP as hell.
It regenerates and hides you from both organic and mechanical enemies, unlike DX1's cloak choice. Also helps spamming it in combat.
Even after those facts, it's still not as bad as third person cover, the all-seeing eye.


and the fact that you can't kill middle of the game bad guys by throwing a vending machine at them is ridiculous.

No it is not ridiculous, they are heavily armoured and also gameplay/challenge>realism. Anyhow, you can kill them by throwing, just not in one throw..


Overall they just added more types of augs that had less functionality, and at the end of the game you weren't left feeling anywhere near as powerful as at the end of DX1.

Which is good and also, depending on how you look at it, within boundaries of lore.


And imagine if DX1 had a NG+ mode where you could install all those augs you skipped out on? That would be a meaningful implementation of NG+.

NO NG+ in DX1, I forbid it! :p

Additionally, a big factor of the power rush feeling in DX1 is that you start off gimped somewhat, classic RPG style (as it should be), then you progress to the opposite extreme by the last 1/3 of the game.

In HR you are not gimped ever, in fact quite the opposite what with regen health, I win takedowns and Third Person cover.

Anyhow, DX:HR's augs are a mixed bag, much like DX1's. But DX1 got the implementation/systems right (choice & consequence, XP system), DX:HR completely ruined the perfection there. Whilst allowing you to unlock any aug right from the start is arguably an improvement, they ruined it with the xp system and allowing you to have all augs by the end of the game, not to mention the extreme imbalance among individual augs.

Beating dead horses you say? Well, they haven't given us anything new to rant or get excited about in a while.

Jito463
19th Dec 2013, 13:27
The one thing I think could improve upon the DE skill system, is make it more like Morrowind (The Elder Scrolls series). In the early TES games, your skills improved based on your usage of them. The more you use a skill, the greater you can advance it. It was also usage of a skill the led to leveling. Only by utilizing skills and improving them, could you level up. While it wouldn't need to be identical to the Morrowind system, I think a hybrid system utilizing both the aug/upgrade canisters from DE and a skill system similar to Morrowind would be perfect for a new DE game.

CyberP
19th Dec 2013, 14:25
The one thing I think could improve upon the DE skill system, is make it more like Morrowind (The Elder Scrolls series). In the early TES games, your skills improved based on your usage of them. The more you use a skill, the greater you can advance it. It was also usage of a skill the led to leveling. Only by utilizing skills and improving them, could you level up. While it wouldn't need to be identical to the Morrowind system, I think a hybrid system utilizing both the aug/upgrade canisters from DE and a skill system similar to Morrowind would be perfect for a new DE game.

A terrible system. Opens up farming/abuse. Lockpicking? Pick everything in sight. Medicine? Intentionally damage yourself then spam medkits. Guns? Shoot and kill, making sure to pop every head, every animal etc. Swimming? Swim in circles for an hour. Hacking? Hack everything in sight for the experience, like HR.

Deus Ex 1's systems are superior, always have been. Instead a deeper and better balanced selection of skills would be better, something I want to update further for my mod if I can get a skilled programmer to step forward!

Jito463
19th Dec 2013, 17:36
A terrible system. Opens up farming/abuse. Lockpicking? Pick everything in sight. Medicine? Intentionally damage yourself then spam medkits. Guns? Shoot and kill, making sure to pop every head, every animal etc. Swimming? Swim in circles for an hour. Hacking? Hack everything in sight for the experience, like HR.

Deus Ex 1's systems are superior, always have been. Instead a deeper and better balanced selection of skills would be better, something I want to update further for my mod if I can get a skilled programmer to step forward!

Well, yeah, if the player wants to be a moron about it. As the saying goes, you can't fix stupid. Although, I'm sure a competent programmer, given the time and resources, could find a way to minimize the abuse. It's no worse than HR's system, giving out EXP left and right for hacking, and doing their imitation of an Awesome Button (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFMtF-w-o_M) with the "takedowns".

*EDIT*
The only reason I mention it, is because it would be more lore-friendly than DE's system which arbitrarily hands out EXP for exploration. Whereas the system I explained would grant actual experience based on usage, which is more real-world accurate. In real life, the more you practice something, the better you get at it. Likewise, a skill system like Morrowind's would let the developer implement the same mechanic.
I'm not arguing that DE didn't get a lot right. I love playing DE again and again. It just felt odd to only be able to improve my skills because I explored an area or completed some task.

HERESY
19th Dec 2013, 18:14
Well, yeah, if the player wants to be a moron about it. As the saying goes, you can't fix stupid. Although, I'm sure a competent programmer, given the time and resources, could find a way to minimize the abuse. It's no worse than HR's system, giving out EXP left and right for hacking, and doing their imitation of an Awesome Button (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFMtF-w-o_M) with the "takedowns".

*EDIT*
The only reason I mention it, is because it would be more lore-friendly than DE's system which arbitrarily hands out EXP for exploration. Whereas the system I explained would grant actual experience based on usage, which is more real-world accurate. In real life, the more you practice something, the better you get at it. Likewise, a skill system like Morrowind's would let the developer implement the same mechanic.
I'm not arguing that DE didn't get a lot right. I love playing DE again and again. It just felt odd to only be able to improve my skills because I explored an area or completed some task.

There are several RPG's that actually use the system you mentioned and do it with great efficiency.

CyberP
19th Dec 2013, 19:54
Well, yeah, if the player wants to be a moron about it. As the saying goes, you can't fix stupid.

Stupid? It's levelling up at a faster rate in most cases. In all the elder scrolls games I run around casting spells at nothing and bunny hopping all the time to upgrade the respective skills, there is no negative consequence to this. For example, to level up conjuration I just repeatedly summon things. Mana regenerates at a rapid pace, there is no consequence. What is stupid is it's implementation.
Same as in Human Revolution, the majority of players hacked the crap out of everything even when we had the password, already blew the door up or didn't need to hack the terminal due to going around the other way, and this is counter realism also and additionally something most players don't really want to do, but xp is fun.


The only reason I mention it, is because it would be more lore-friendly than DE's system which arbitrarily hands out EXP for exploration. Whereas the system I explained would grant actual experience based on usage, which is more real-world accurate. In real life, the more you practice something, the better you get at it. Likewise, a skill system like Morrowind's would let the developer implement the same mechanic.
I'm not arguing that DE didn't get a lot right. I love playing DE again and again. It just felt odd to only be able to improve my skills because I explored an area or completed some task.

Indeed, that is what skill building is, but there are no work-arounds, the devs realised this, and also realised gameplay is ultimately more important than realism yet still masterfully implemented such strong simulation design, which is one reason why LGS design is still unparalleled to this day.

HERESY
19th Dec 2013, 20:03
And part of the reason why they no longer exist...

Jito463
19th Dec 2013, 20:13
Stupid? It's levelling up at a faster rate in most cases. In all the elder scrolls games I run around casting spells at nothing and bunny hopping all the time to upgrade the respective skills, there is no negative consequence to this. For example, to level up conjuration I just repeatedly summon things. Mana regenerates at a rapid pace, there is no consequence. What is stupid is it's implementation.

Then we're at least partially in agreement. The implementation may not have been the greatest, but the concept is sound.


Same as in Human Revolution, the majority of players hacked the crap out of everything even when we had the password, already blew the door up or didn't need to hack the terminal due to going around the other way, and this is counter realism also and additionally something most players don't really want to do, but xp is fun.

And? In DE, I would backtrack to take multiple routes so I could get experience for exploring every possible avenue. How is that any different? Don't get me wrong, I love exploration in games, and DE's system just fed that need to see what's in every nook and cranny. I just think there may be a better way.


Indeed, that is what skill building is, but there are no work-arounds, the devs realised this, and also realised gameplay is ultimately more important than realism yet still masterfully implemented such strong simulation design, which is one reason why LGS design is still unparalleled to this day.

I'm not arguing it wasn't a good design for it's day, but it also wasn't without flaws. And with the technology improvements in the past decade+, there's no reason it couldn't be made better. I want to make it a better game, not dumb it down.


And part of the reason why they no longer exist...

You're not seriously trying to argue that their design choices in DE led to the studios demise, are you?

HERESY
19th Dec 2013, 20:28
You're not seriously trying to argue that their design choices in DE led to the studios demise, are you?

Several design choices, along with other idiocies, contributed to their demise.

CyberP
19th Dec 2013, 23:58
And? In DE, I would backtrack to take multiple routes so I could get experience for exploring every possible avenue. How is that any different? Don't get me wrong, I love exploration in games, and DE's system just fed that need to see what's in every nook and cranny.

It's different because it is just exploration, you're going to do that anyway, better yet it's something the game should encourage especially since you are not given objective markers and other hand holders. But if you insist, then removing exploration bonuses and having awards for primary/secondary goals only would be the solution to this non-issue (exploration bonuses are very minor rewards in DE anyway, usually 20-50 points).

I can imagine what playing Deus Ex first time without exploring would be like, must be frustrating trying to find where to go at times. Deus Ex is an exploration-centric game, period. Something you must do and at times without much direction, for example the DuClare Château, you are just told to explore, look for clues, nothing more.


I'm not arguing it wasn't a good design for it's day, but it also wasn't without flaws. And with the technology improvements in the past decade+, there's no reason it couldn't be made better. I want to make it a better game, not dumb it down.


This is design of RPG systems we are talking about, technological advancements of the last decade barely factors into the design of a good system. Unless you believe Kinect or Facebook integration can make a better system.
It's all code and ideas. If there was a better solution it could have been done back when Morrowind was released, correct me if I am wrong.
I'll have a think, see if I can come up with a safeguard...since I do fancy myself as a designer and all ;)


You're not seriously trying to argue that their design choices in DE led to the studios demise, are you?

He is. Running his mouth again despite already being told that DE was one of Ion Storm's successful games and the demise of the studio was down to Ion Storm Dallas' Daikatana as well as Ion Storm Austin's later, intentionally dumbed down games, one being DE:IW, Harvey Smith's doing, again feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

HERESY
20th Dec 2013, 00:18
Actually it was shutdown due to what I have said in this thread and previous classic posts. It was confirmed in the Thief thread where the guy posted the audio interview. The search engine is your friend cyber.

Shralla
20th Dec 2013, 01:55
Several design choices, along with other idiocies, contributed to their demise.

By design choices and other idiocies, you're clearly only talking about Invisible War, because literally nothing involving the original Deus Ex was the cause or even a contribution to their demise at all. Deus Ex was a hugely successful game, both critically and financially. Invisible War not so much.

dysamoria
21st Dec 2013, 03:41
Frame rates.

I couldn't get past that, and actually quit playing after the first mission. Walking around Detroit, frame rates dropped into the teens at random. The regular version didn't do that, so I gave up on the Director's Cut and went back to playing the regular version.

Now I preach to others to avoid the Director's Cut like the plague.

Too bad Eidos is in no hurry to patch it up to a playable standard.

This is where i am now. i've never played the game before, so this is my first experience with it and i'm irritated. i can't play it like this. It's hard to look at and combat is almost impossible.

HERESY
21st Dec 2013, 06:44
By design choices and other idiocies, you're clearly only talking about Invisible War, because literally nothing involving the original Deus Ex was the cause or even a contribution to their demise at all. Deus Ex was a hugely successful game, both critically and financially. Invisible War not so much.

No.