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Smoke43
29th Oct 2013, 18:29
We all know that a new game of the Deus Ex franchise is coming. What things you would like that Deus Ex Human Revolution did not have in a sequel or a future game. I personally want a third view option similar to the recent Fallout games. Also some melee weapons because Deus EX HR did not have i wonder why?

Hello me being the guy who made this thread i personally want more this.

1. More Character development why? Once you meet a character you either forget who it was or what he does. For example Vasili Sevchenko you first meet him in the begging in the game but don't remember him after you track his GPL. You don't know anything about Adam Jensen's history same to Megan Reed we don't if she is honest or not. The characters need to be worked out.

2. Better development tools why? You can hear in the Directors Cut comments that the dev team, complains that they cut alot of the game content like Megan, suppose to be in Panchea to the end the india map, the Upper Hensha map,and a bigger Detroit i personally would loved to see that. This messege is Square Enix owners of Eidos Montreal please put more resources to the team because they are very talented people. In creation this wonderful game with correct resources they can achieve better results.

3.More options do and places and bigger if you actually noticed the game lacks of things to do. You may wonder why in first you don't have melee weapons in second Detroit and Hensha map repeat it self after the Montreal map it get boring if you don't have things to do.


I personally think that Eidos Montreal needs to add alot of stuff because the game is nice but it lacks stuff of a modern game.

If any Moderator reads this please give this whole threat to the Eidos this is fans want in a new Deus ex game and also tell Square Enix to put more money on Eidos and Deus ex because Square Enix have golden GEM GAME in the hand it well sad if they just trash the series

Lucifer
29th Oct 2013, 18:52
First thing what they should do Is sit and ask what engine we gonna use for next DX.Start from the ground.DX needs something special with no limits, you know like autobahn with no speed limit.Then we can talk.

Tverdyj
29th Oct 2013, 19:14
We all know that a new game of the Deus Ex franchise is coming. What things you would like that Deus Ex Human Revolution did not have in a sequel or a future game. I personally want a third view option similar to the recent Fallout games. Also some melee weapons because Deus EX HR did not have i wonder why?

well, that's easy: because we needed to see Adam use his augmented arms in 3rd person takedowns. Also, melee combat apparently wouldn't work with 3rd person stealth.

I've written many times about what I'd want for the franchise to strive towards

The shortlist: Keep the new hacking, convo battles, better gunplay mechanics. Also keep open-plan levels like Yuzhao (AKA, "rooftop district" of Hengsha), and build on that, by adding:

-Better physics
-proper melee
-NOT a love-driven storyline-Get back to conspiracies, plz.
-emphasize the openness of approaches, don't shoehorn players into a play-style via EXP system
-while we're at it, overhaul the EXP system. look at Alpha Protocol for how to make an interesting exp system for an RPG-lite.
-in fact, look @ Alpha Protocol if you want more Choice + Consequence for your story.
-More hubs. More side-quests. Preferably give us some that require travel to multiple locations, not just ones that can be solved in a single hub.

Shralla
29th Oct 2013, 20:23
I personally want a third view option similar to the recent Fallout games.

I also would love to completely break the game and render it virtually impossible for the developers to implement effective and coherent level design and AI.

Seconding everything kud13 said.

CyberP
29th Oct 2013, 20:30
I am a Alpha Protocol hater, I think that game is loaded with terrible design.

Furthermore, an Immersive Sim-inspired game shouldn't look towards a Bioware-esque game for inspiration, it should look to Immersive Sims.

Also we don't need more hubs, we need more missions of varying design like DX1. DX:HR was 70% hub traversing. Just look to DX1 then expand on it with design that doesn't suck. Don't fix what isn't broken, as Wildcat would say.

I really don't want to be negative, maybe I should get myself banned.

WildcatPhoenix
29th Oct 2013, 20:41
Also we don't need more hubs, we need more missions of varying design like DX1. DX:HR was 70% hub traversing. Just look to DX1 then expand on it with design that doesn't suck. Don't fix what isn't broken, as Wildcat would say.

Indeed. More importantly, if you're going to have hubs, please populate them with interesting NPCs who change position over time. By the 50th time I passed that guy break-dancing in the Detroit subway station, it was difficult to maintain any kind of immersion.

Also, can we please have NPCs who talk about anything besides augmentation/transhumanism? I get that EM wants H+ to be the defining theme of this series, which is fine, but it certainly shouldn't be the only thing on people's minds. Give us some background to the larger world, convince me that these are living, breathing human beings with daily lives and personalities.

EricaLeeV
29th Oct 2013, 20:47
Also we don't need more hubs, we need more missions of varying design like DX1. DX:HR was 70% hub traversing. Just look to DX1 then expand on it with design that doesn't suck. Don't fix what isn't broken, as Wildcat would say.

I'm not going to claim to know much about design but I really would love to see some more variety in the levels like Cyber said. Varying color palettes, different moods, different locals. For me a lot of DXHR, while pretty, felt similar. Though what I am thinking is that the DXHR team is really trying to "theme" each game as a whole, thus they probably feel they want cohesion throughout. It reminds me of that one time, if I remember right, that one of the devs said they wanted people to look at a screenshot and know it was Human Revolution.

Tverdyj
29th Oct 2013, 21:05
Indeed. More importantly, if you're going to have hubs, please populate them with interesting NPCs who change position over time. By the 50th time I passed that guy break-dancing in the Detroit subway station, it was difficult to maintain any kind of immersion.

Also, can we please have NPCs who talk about anything besides augmentation/transhumanism? I get that EM wants H+ to be the defining theme of this series, which is fine, but it certainly shouldn't be the only thing on people's minds. Give us some background to the larger world, convince me that these are living, breathing human beings with daily lives and personalities.

What, the two identical twin girls on the opposite exits of the Detroit subway complaing about how their (presumably) identical twin boyfriends will kill them for getting stuck late downtown weren't immersive enough for you? lol

In all seriousness, yes, please. Do less NPCs, as long as they are more unique, if you have to.

@ CyberP-on AP we will have to agree to disagree, I thought it was one of the best games of this generation, and replayed it 4 times in a row. You will notice that I've included a caveat "if you want to make it more of an RPG", though. DX as an imsim would be ideal, but I'm almost convinced we'll get "an FPS with RPG elements". If that is the case, look to AP to make those elements good.

As for more hubs... well, that kind of implies diversity. I thought that was obvious.

Cyberhuman
29th Oct 2013, 22:59
DX:HR was great, but I really would like to see more unique and dynamic NPC's, increased AI intelligence and more diverse news reports etc. This will all add up to a more immersive experience. This should always be first priority for a Deus Ex game; make sure immersion is at the center!

When it comes to better AI, I would really like to see boss fights that are intelligent. I think we're all tired of the same old concept; making the boss nearly invulnerable to deadly weapons. Please make the boss realistic, make the boss harder in a different way, in an intelligent way.

Have anyone played the game Jade Empire? The last boss fight is great in so many ways; it's no big monster, no superman, it is just a very skilled and intelligent boss with a great set of different skills, it can challenge you in many ways and it will actually force you to be careful!

Noriega
30th Oct 2013, 05:36
I love HR and feel they got a lot more things right than they got wrong but there are some things id like to see in a new game:

Better story arcs for the enemy bosses; the bosses we had in HR lacked any real motivation beyond being mercs, take Gunther in the original DE as an example of a well developed character that had a purpose.

More diverse augmentation options and ways to use them. This is definitely something the original DE and even invisible war to some extent got right over HR; the ability to create a play style based upon the augs that was varied. In HR although the augs were cool by the end of the game pretty much everybody who played it had the same character build. This somewhat spoiled the rpg element of the game as you're railroaded into upgrading to a homogenised template character based upon which augs are needed at that specific time. I liked the ability in the previous games to choose one aug over another with pros and cons for each, black market augs would also be a great addition.

Melee weapons; please

More open world elements; see the very first level of the original DE for a good example; you're dropped into an island and given an objective then left to figure it out. That was a great. You don't have to make a huge sandbox game like far cry 3 but some more open world elements would be nice. The city hubs in HR were good but could have been implemented a lot better.

Consequences: It would be cool to see how your character progression throughout the game affects the world around you, how people react to you and how it influences the outcome of the story. The endings for HR were amazing and thought provoking but choosing by pressing a button was such a cheap mechanic.

Smoke43
30th Oct 2013, 15:20
Adding to my thoughts i also want to see more character development because in Human Revolution they Killed of Megan in the begging we barely know anything about her or even the mercs and a bigger worlds because these worlds were kinda small

sadmachine
30th Oct 2013, 15:57
I'd like to see the next game do a bit better in pacing. Tai Yong and PICUS were each interesting locations in their own right, but doing them back-to-back soured me on both.

Tverdyj
30th Oct 2013, 16:51
Adding to my thoughts i also want to see more character development because in Human Revolution they Killed of Megan in the begging we barely know anything about her or even the mercs and a bigger worlds because these worlds were kinda small

Megan wasn't a character. She was a walking plot device.

vb4
31st Oct 2013, 17:35
My list:
- A stronger feeling of being superhuman - Jensen is supposedly superhuman, yet moves like a normal person.
Look at Crysis, for example, to see how to make the player feel superhuman and yet vulnerable. (Then again, the Crysis approach requires the player to actually learn the game... Which is disliked in today's industry)
- Please prevent major breaks of logic in the game. Stuff like "lol let's kill the entire police force in Detroit" shouldn't stay without consequences. Either remove the possibility or go all the way. Also, police that shoots on sight? Seriously?
- Make the overall level design less artificial. I'm talking especially about enemy placement - Stealth felt more like a puzzle of "find the path pre-determined by the developers!" instead of a game of wits and improvisation. I want the enemies to behave slightly more organic (i.e. not walking exactly the same path at all times and actually noticing when the dude that they just talked to suddenly disappears) and force me to use more of the tools at my disposal - I'm looking at you, silent walk augmentation and tagging.
- Give us an EXP system that doesn't blatantly punish a player for loving explosives and elaborate traps. Sometimes I want to make Vlad the Impaler proud during an otherwise sane playthrough.
- Also, tying into the "feeling superhuman" and "revamp EXP" points, I'd love to see slightly more involving combat. Better EXP and more superhumanness would already be enough, actually, but additional combat mechanics might be nice - Something that allows me to murder an entire room if I'm good, like the ability to parcour through a room as long as you household your energy properly. That choice should be high risk/reward, though, to prevent the game from devolving into all guns blazing all the time. I don't want the ability to curbstomp every single encounter - I want the ability to disregard the "cover-pop-cover" playstyle in favor of all-out aggression, possibly at the cost of ressources or something, when I feel like I'm really good (Or that the current encounter is just that goddamn weak).
Currently, the closest equivalent is popping Snickers and booze while abusing the takedown cutscenes to fist-fight an entire room. That feels more like cheating than skill.
That could even tie into timed missions, like the first one in HR. Something like starting the countdown the moment the player is spotted, meaning that a stealth player wouldn't be affected while a combat player would be full of adrenaline.

Also, if you include something as awesome as the typhoon or the Icarus stun, please at least try to make it actually useful. (Then again, "skip boss" was a nice function for the typhoon, even if underwhelming)
In the same vein, cloak was way too broken.

And, last but not least, I'd like if there weren't "must have" augmentations - As is, you'd always want to invest into augmentations like the high jump, because it expands the scope of the game greatly.

Edit:
I also agree with more NPCs that don't talk about augmentations. And I want catchier music (I disliked DX1, but the music forced me to come back multiple times).
And, yes, an augmentation system where the character build doesn't end up homogenized at the end. Which ties in nicely into the point of having no must-have augs.

CyberP
31st Oct 2013, 18:15
My list:
- A stronger feeling of being superhuman - Jensen is supposedly superhuman, yet moves like a normal person.


False. You upgrade movement speed and jumping height, and also Icarus landing system.


- Please prevent major breaks of logic in the game. Stuff like "lol let's kill the entire police force in Detroit" shouldn't stay without consequences. Either remove the possibility or go all the way.

There are consequences, newspaper story reports on it. Nah I agree, should be a little more than that.


Also, police that shoots on sight? Seriously?

This is future Detroit you are talking about. If you are armed and dangerous it is feasible they won't take any chances.
The only arguable problem here is them dropping you without warning for throwing a cardboard box at them, but again, future detroit. That said, there are times where unified behaviour doesn't do th game justice. Throwing cardboard box at cop in station should = "hands on the ground" etc, whilst outside I can understand opening fire, maybe. That also said, AI individualism in such ways is something devs rarely ever do. They all share same group of classes and parent classes (though this is a good thing), and not often have altered properties, except dialogue and all the obvious stuff. An example of this is them ALL reacting to carboard box throwing with hostility.

Not enough AI individualism in all games. Can easily be done by altering the last set of classes in the hierarchy as well as via an editor. but I suppose it's another matter of priorities for devs, something that modders should expand on really (I did for DX1, but nowhere near enough).


- Make the overall level design less artificial.


- Give us an EXP system that doesn't blatantly punish a player

Strongly agree on both, though I'd add the obvious, a system that forces you to specialise, not have all augs in one playthrough for various reasons.


Also, if you include something as awesome as the typhoon or the Icarus stun, please at least try to make it actually useful. (Then again, "skip boss" was a nice function for the typhoon, even if underwhelming)
In the same vein, cloak was way too broken.

If I had it my way the typhoon would be nerfed. Icarus stun attack was fine (except the whole thing being in third person). If you find the opportunity to use it (can be almost anywhere if you have high jump, except all the office levels) then it does it's job.


And, last but not least, I'd like if there weren't "must have" augmentations - As is, you'd always want to invest into augmentations like the high jump, because it expands the scope of the game greatly.

So you want high jump removed? No, I know that is not what you meant, you just want a more balanced aug system, and there are a couple of ways this can be done to HR: greater variety in aug unlock prices as well tweaking augs or DX1's system.


Edit:
I also agree with more NPCs that don't talk about augmentations. And I want catchier music (I disliked DX1, but the music forced me to come back multiple times).

You played the game through multiple times despite disliking the game? That's odd. Why not just listen to the music on Youtube in that case?


And, yes, an augmentation system where the character build do
esn't end up homogenized at the end. Which ties in nicely into the point of having no must-have augs.

Ah, you did mean that....sort of.

sonicsidewinder
31st Oct 2013, 22:53
Tentacle Aug.

vb4
1st Nov 2013, 14:57
False. You upgrade movement speed and jumping height, and also Icarus landing system.

The movement speed thing is one of the issues that I have with it, actually.
Even the upgraded speed doesn't feel fast enough to be superhuman. And the limited stamina really doesn't help.
And jumping height for some reason only really amplifies height, not length. Which would be nice for tactical maneuvers in a firefight.




If I had it my way the typhoon would be nerfed. Icarus stun attack was fine (except the whole thing being in third person). If you find the opportunity to use it (can be almost anywhere if you have high jump, except all the office levels) then it does it's job.


I felt that the amount of enemies simply never justified any of the two.
Icarus stun was basically a setup for Typhoon or knockdowns, which was absolutely unnecessary due to both having time-stopping animations. Typhoon was supposed to be a 360° attack, but the few cases of usage tended towards eliminating singular high-HP targets instead of forcing enemies to bunch up.
Actually, melee enemies that surround the player would fix that issue.


You played the game through multiple times despite disliking the game? That's odd. Why not just listen to the music on Youtube in that case?
I never finished it, actually. Stopped somewhere in China.
The thing about game music is that it only has the full impact when you hear it during the game. Hearing it on its own is simply not the same.
My opinion of DX was that I like it on an intelectual level (the attempts at freedom, for example) and that the music is insanely catchy, but the base game is quite clunky.

ClubbedToDeath
1st Nov 2013, 15:28
Level design from DX1 would be nice

CyberP
1st Nov 2013, 16:57
The movement speed thing is one of the issues that I have with it, actually.
Even the upgraded speed doesn't feel fast enough to be superhuman. And the limited stamina really doesn't help

Since both augs are passive they have to be limited in this way. If it were like DX1, the speed enhancement aug, that would be great. (upgrade it to lvl 4 and you can jump very high and run very fast, but you are limited by bioelectricity).


And jumping height for some reason only really amplifies height, not length. Which would be nice for tactical maneuvers in a firefight.

Yeah good point.


Icarus stun was basically a setup for Typhoon or knockdowns, which was absolutely unnecessary due to both having time-stopping animations

Yeah if there were melee combat things would be a little different.


. Typhoon was supposed to be a 360° attack, but the few cases of usage tended towards eliminating singular high-HP targets instead of forcing enemies to bunch up.

Probably works well for big groups when rescuing Malik.


I never finished it, actually. Stopped somewhere in China.

Man that's when it starts to get epic.


The thing about game music is that it only has the full impact when you hear it during the game. Hearing it on its own is simply not the same.

True.


My opinion of DX was that I like it on an intelectual level (the attempts at freedom, for example) and that the music is insanely catchy, but the base game is quite clunky.

Intellectual level? Things get more intellectually awesome the further you progress also.

Clunky?

NPC movement animations
Reload Animations.
Overall graphics
AI pathfinding.

These are the clunky things about DX1. Everything else is superior quality.
Now, I noticed that you like combat playstyle, DX1 turns into a solid shooter further into the game if you focus on weapon skills and weapon modding. 100% accuracy. It goes from being a slow paced, very tactical shooter into a fast paced (especially with Speed Enhancement aug at lvl 4) superhuman FPS fest with all the good stuff, the outstanding level design, the great story etc.
Trust me, play it again, give it time to shine, focus on weapon skills more than others, hunt for weapon mods, aug upgrades, and you really do turn into this superhuman you are craving, just got to build yourself into it, RPG style.
Give it another chance, play it until the end (there is more great music down the line also), take my word, it just gets better as you get more powerful and the story gets more epic.

Click on the link in my signature, and on the summary page there is the "installation guide" for my mod. Follow the guide right up until it says "Installing GMDX" and stop (GMDX is my mod and hardcore in difficulty, you wont want that at least until you actually complete the game). This will get you two graphics mods that do a lot for the game.
Once you done that you just have to disable the MJ12 troops in the options and you are good to go.

But maybe it's just not for you, because by China things are already starting to get epic and the game should have had your full attention by then, wanting to see, play and learn more.

chris.wihu
2nd Nov 2013, 22:34
while i am more than satisfied with the augmentations as they are now i would really have loved to seen a greater interplay between augmentations.

for example having the high jump and the Icarus landing system would allow you to make a high jump and then go into the stun ability to knock out bigger groups of gathered enemies with out killing them. or having the eye enhancement to look through walls and have a sniper-mod that would allow you to shot through walls. or with the capability of the AUD you could plant it directly on robots to hack them.

also as it has been said before, some melee weapons, would be a nice change in the pace.

also i would like to see the characters who we either helped or killed reappear in some form or other.

CyberP
2nd Nov 2013, 23:00
for example having the high jump and the Icarus landing system would allow you to make a high jump and then go into the stun ability to knock out bigger groups of gathered enemies with out killing them.

You can do this with both augs from anything that is like more than 2 meters off the ground, and this is good. If you could do it anywhere it would be a Icarus punch festival.


or having the eye enhancement to look through walls and have a sniper-mod that would allow you to shot through walls.

Laser Rifle shoots through walls. Would be nice if conventional firearms had reasonable bullet penetration too, as long as Smart vision was nerfed.


or with the capability of the AUD you could plant it directly on robots to hack them.

Not a bad idea, though may give Bot Domination aug less worth.


also i would like to see the characters who we either helped or killed reappear in some form or other.

:scratch:

HERESY
2nd Nov 2013, 23:06
Yeah I didn't get that one either.

Berr
3rd Nov 2013, 04:20
Icarus punch festival.

Haha I can picture it now ... jump then icarus punch landing from anywhere, plus takedowns don't use energy...

Icarus Punch Festival vs Takedown Festival .... GOOOOOOOO!!!!

Now that you've imagined that, NG+ doesn't seem so bad does it? ;)

chris.wihu
3rd Nov 2013, 06:44
sorry for not being clear but i meant that if you, for an example, killed zelazny it would in some way or form translate in the new game, an article or better yet you having to do a more difficult mission because he can't help.

again sorry for my lack of detailed wording

vb4
3rd Nov 2013, 10:55
So, you mean, killing the entire Detroit police force means that Adam won't be able to run around openly and will need secret passages to meet plot-important NPCs?
And missions with the Chinese or American thugs will allow for new diplomacy options, while missions where you have American allies/enemies will be harder due to everyone *really* hating you?

Reminds me of being a Nosferatu in Bloodlines.

Rtech
4th Nov 2013, 02:17
A Deus Ex game with a great storyline as well as the development of the game with an SDK in mind so that we can extend the game's life as well as have spin-offs which benefited Bohemia Interactive's Armed Assault series with the release of DayZ.

chris.wihu
5th Nov 2013, 05:53
another thing i would like to see are more weapon-mods, that doesn't just increase four categories on every weapon.

some ideas i had would be:
- scopes for most weapons (maybe not all pistols types, but i used the Zenith with all mods possible for my first couple playtroughs)
- different stock, making either a weapon quicker to draw and maneuver with or more stable while shooting.
- a light component mod, making a weapon lighter using, carbon parts to it takes up less room n the inventory screen.
- a longer barrel allowing for longer more precise range.

in augmentations i would like to see:
- eye augmentations that work with aiming and scopes.
- extra back augmentation for making weapons smaller in inventory (like the weapon mod but i like to carry a lot of crap)
- an augmentation allowing for climbing up normally unclimbable walls.
- some kind of augmentation capable of knocking out many without killing them.

in the terms of enemies i would like to see:
- big dudes with heavy duty augmentation (like a mix between crane and a human - kinda weird but its the bets way i can explain it)
- female enemies, just weren't enough of them in the game.
- better ai (one that doesn't just walk the same route again and again but makes variations in it.

CyberP
5th Nov 2013, 06:38
Some good suggestions there, let me refine them ;)




some ideas i had would be:
- scopes for most weapons (maybe not all pistols types, but i used the Zenith with all mods possible for my first couple playtroughs
- different stock, making either a weapon quicker to draw and maneuver with or more stable while shooting.
- a light component mod, making a weapon lighter using, carbon parts to it takes up less room n the inventory screen.
- a longer barrel allowing for longer more precise range.

All good suggestions. Though the barrel should instead be a tiered stackable range mod, like in DX1, or like the other mods in HR for those who havent played DX1. More depth and fun that way. But yes the others should be one-time attachments.


in augmentations i would like to see:
- eye augmentations that work with aiming and scopes.

Smart vision does this.


- extra back augmentation for making weapons smaller in inventory (like the weapon mod but i like to carry a lot of crap)

There already is the inventory size aug and this in combination with your lightweight/stripped parts mod is enough. The inventory system in HR is very good, one of it's finest aspects.


- an augmentation allowing for climbing up normally unclimbable walls.

If you mean mantling, this should be there by default. But I instead get the impression you want to be spiderman. No. That would ruin a primary gameplay element- platforming.


- some kind of augmentation capable of knocking out many without killing them.

Non-lethal typhoon? Would be just as OP as Typhoon. There is already PEPS. Small blast radius which is good.


in the terms of enemies i would like to see:
- big dudes with heavy duty augmentation (like a mix between crane and a human - kinda weird but its the bets way i can explain it)

Not a very good explanation, though what you've explained here thus far doesn't sound good.
The big dudes have dermal armour and typhoon though. Not bad.
Elite Belltower have Icarus landing, cloak, lvl 2 dermal armour I suppose (abnormal HP but normal for games).


- female enemies, just weren't enough of them in the game.

Naturally there will be more male than female in a merc or military squadron, but just a few more in places would be cool.

Cyberhuman
6th Nov 2013, 03:17
Just expanding on what I mentioned earlier:

If you are spotted in a high security area, like say the Omega Ranch, if you are spotted there to the degree where they start to open fire, then for the remainder of the time you spend there the AI will stay on high alert, at all times and never go back to regular partrol mode. This is very important in terms of immersion.

It will also help making the game more challenging..

Berr
6th Nov 2013, 05:07
Just expanding on what I mentioned earlier:

If you are spotted in a high security area, like say the Omega Ranch, if you are spotted there to the degree where they start to open fire, then for the remainder of the time you spend there the AI will stay on high alert, at all times and never go back to regular partrol mode. This is very important in terms of immersion.

It will also help making the game more challenging..

I don't know what to think of this. On the one hand, I 100% agree that its laughable and immersion breaking when they go back to patrols a few minutes after (for example) seeing me shoot a few of their buddies dead.

But on the other hand, it's likely to cause pretty high levels of save-reload shenanigans :/

I'm thinking this [permanent alert after hostile] could be an ideal candidate for a way that the game fundamentally changes in a 'realistic' difficulty. I really liked that they had that setting in DX1 that wasn't just 'more damage and HP' for enemies like so many harder difficulties are.

CyberP
6th Nov 2013, 05:24
I really liked that they had that setting in DX1 that wasn't just 'more damage and HP' for enemies like so many harder difficulties are.

That's pretty much what realistic difficulty is. It just adds an extra multiplier to the damage the player takes, and this on combination with a headshot or torso shot multiplier really hurts.
It didn't even do a damn thing for stealth! If myself and my buddy return and add to GMDX, this will definitely be a priority; enemy view range scaling with difficulty.

The difficulty settings in DX1 were pretty crap considering it's both a stealth and/or action game, but it doesn't try to deceive you, it does state "select combat difficulty" above. Granted, it does still effect stealth if you are spotted and are shot at, but it's not that significant to a stealth player, especially those who spam quicksave and reload if they are spotted (quicksave for the weak!).


Just expanding on what I mentioned earlier:

If you are spotted in a high security area, like say the Omega Ranch, if you are spotted there to the degree where they start to open fire, then for the remainder of the time you spend there the AI will stay on high alert, at all times and never go back to regular partrol mode. This is very important in terms of immersion.

It will also help making the game more challenging..

I like. But it should only apply to those within earshot/have already been put under suspicion, and in the case of squads with radio communication, then the whole level should be on high alert permanently and communicating effectively with one another.

So make police and Mercs have radio communication. Thugs and hostile animals/transgenics= within earshot. Bots= Hmm. Will need to think this over. I'll leave it to EM :)

Edit: You did specifically state "in a high security area", my bad.

Cyberhuman
6th Nov 2013, 08:33
I like. But it should only apply to those within earshot/have already been put under suspicion, and in the case of squads with radio communication, then the whole level should be on high alert permanently and communicating effectively with one another.

So make police and Mercs have radio communication. Thugs and hostile animals/transgenics= within earshot. Bots= Hmm. Will need to think this over. I'll leave it to EM :)

Edit: You did specifically state "in a high security area", my bad.

Yeah, sounds good.


I'm thinking this [permanent alert after hostile] could be an ideal candidate for a way that the game fundamentally changes in a 'realistic' difficulty. I really liked that they had that setting in DX1 that wasn't just 'more damage and HP' for enemies like so many harder difficulties are.

Yes, its kind of puzzling that they didn't think of this. They could have easily implemented this element with the "Give Me Deus Ex" setting; that would have been amazing.

How hard would it be to rectify this with a mod?

CyberP
6th Nov 2013, 15:47
Oh, to add, hostile Animals and transgenics should go back to normal patrol/behaviour as they actually are stupid and would actually forget about you.



How hard would it be to rectify this with a mod?

Without an SDK, Impossible. Shouldn't be too hard with one though.

I'd go for rebalancing and refining other game systems first though. Credits, augs, xp etc.

Cyberhuman
7th Nov 2013, 00:10
Im lurking the Cyberpunk 2077 forums every now and then, and I came across this:


I think different enemies should display different levels of discipline and training, (ranging from none to perfect soldier,) depending on who and what they are.

Young booster gangers wikll have next to no combat experience, nor will 'Joe Bloggs' in the street on his way home. It's doubtful that many, (if any,) gangers will have much discipline either.

On the other hand, corporate special forces will be well trained killing machines with a few wars and hundres if not thousands of hours of combat experience in various environments and situations under their belts.


This should affect how the enemy AI's act and react during firefights as well as when they relaxed or alerted.

This is interesting and something I've thought about a lot. This would also be great for Deus Ex; it could make the game more challenging, a little more unpredictable and definitely more realistic.

I mean, this is Deus Ex, right? They can - and they should - implement some of these elements; it would add so much to the experience.

Shralla
7th Nov 2013, 00:34
Supposedly they had that AI feature in Human Revolution. Or at least they were talking about it before release. They said that street gangs would behave differently and in a less organized manner than mercenaries and the like. I don't know if that ever panned out, but it's a great idea. AI "difficulty" is far too much of "they take/do more damage, and they hit 100% of the time"

Cyberhuman
7th Nov 2013, 00:49
Supposedly they had that AI feature in Human Revolution. Or at least they were talking about it before release. They said that street gangs would behave differently and in a less organized manner than mercenaries and the like. I don't know if that ever panned out, but it's a great idea. AI "difficulty" is far too much of "they take/do more damage, and they hit 100% of the time"

Yeah, im not sure I felt much of a difference. I know that they have limited time and resources, but instead of operating with only one enemy AI model, they could at least add one additional model.

This problem is obviously related to the challenge of designing more intelligent AI. The gaming industry have never really managed to overcome this problem yet. As you say, the solution is restricted to simply increase damage and health.

Berr
7th Nov 2013, 02:08
@Akira01: Interestingly, I've read from a number of making-of articles for different games that they made the combat AI very smart during development but found players did not enjoy it and eventually scaled it back before release. I can't think of a specific game offhand though unfortunately.

I do agree though that I would enjoy it if a game had different AI behaviour for street thugs vs soldiers for example.

Cyberhuman
7th Nov 2013, 02:34
@Akira01: Interestingly, I've read from a number of making-of articles for different games that they made the combat AI very smart during development but found players did not enjoy it and eventually scaled it back before release. I can't think of a specific game offhand though unfortunately.

I do agree though that I would enjoy it if a game had different AI behaviour for street thugs vs soldiers for example.

Who wants to mindlessly press the trigger button to death, over and over again. I mean, aren't people tired of this, since its been going on ever since video games were first introduced? This sounds very very strange to me, very strange.

Berr
7th Nov 2013, 02:50
@Akira01: Yeah I know. Trying to remember, I think it was squads that worked together to bait you into a trap, advanced flanking techniques that got you killed from behind before you realized where they were, and intelligent use of grenades that would just kill you if you were trying to fight from cover.

Basically, a bunch of the realities why one person fighting alone against a competent group of opponents would be screwed unless they were indestructible.

Cyberhuman
7th Nov 2013, 03:09
@Akira01: Yeah I know. Trying to remember, I think it was squads that worked together to bait you into a trap, advanced flanking techniques that got you killed from behind before you realized where they were, and intelligent use of grenades that would just kill you if you were trying to fight from cover.

Basically, a bunch of the realities why one person fighting alone against a competent group of opponents would be screwed unless they were indestructible.

Well, its not like im saying they should go all out; just AI smart enough to strengthen the illusion of reality and make it a little more challenging.

CyberP
7th Nov 2013, 03:10
Who wants to mindlessly press the trigger button to death, over and over again. I mean, aren't people tired of this, since its been going on ever since video games were first introduced? This sounds very very strange to me, very strange.

I had this discussion here just last month: bulletsponges certainly have their place. An action where everyone dies realistically is one I probably will not want to play: 1 shot to the player, 1 shot to anyone and they are either on the floor screaming in pain or dead. FUN!
For human targets, we are at a nice balance- the standard 1 shot to the head, 3 in the chest unless it's a fully automatic weapon or enemies are armoured (obviously it ultimately depends on a guns damage stat, but this is the standard). It's about sustaining fire, maintaining accuracy, fighting with recoil, tactical movement. There would be none of that if everybody behaved realistically because it's not hard to line up anything in the centre of your screen at all, and that's all you'd have to do. This is coming from a guy who games with a console pad more than M+K. Combat would be like ranged object interaction, pick up the candy bar and nothing more. Enemies wouldn't have a chance unless they were aware of you before you them, which is rare.
Deus Ex makes bullet sponges believable with dermal armour/ballistic protection anyway, and if a game features monsters/robots of the sort they should always be bullet sponges.
When it comes to human enemies, I'd like that balance of HP we have now- believable whilst still providing fun. This in combination with more intelligent AI would be great.

Cyberhuman
7th Nov 2013, 03:22
I had this discussion here just last month: bulletsponges certainly have their place. An action where everyone dies realistically is one I probably will not want to play: 1 shot to the player, 1 shot to anyone and they are either on the floor screaming in pain or dead. FUN!
For human targets, we are at a nice balance- 1 shot to the head, 3 in the chest unless it's a fully automatic weapon or enemies are armoured. It's about sustaining fire, maintaining accuracy, fighting with recoil. There would be none of that if everybody behaved realistically because it's not hard to line up anything in the centre of your screen at all. And I game with a console pad more than I do M+K. Combat would be like ranged object interaction, pick up the candy bar, nothing more.
Deus Ex makes bullet sponges believable with dermal armour/ballistic protection anyway, and if a game features monsters/robots of the sort they should always be bullet sponges.
When it comes to human enemies, I'd like that balance of HP we have now- believable whilst still providing fun. This in combination with more intelligent AI would be great.

Yes, im very satisfied with Deus Ex, I was thinking more about classic boss-fights in general. We got a little sidetracked

We were talking about how different classes of enemies should have different skill levels; where spec ops for example would be smarter and more accurate and simple thugs would be more undiciplined and have a restricted set of skills etc..

CyberP
7th Nov 2013, 03:38
We were talking about how different classes of enemies should have different skill levels; where spec ops for example would be smarter and more accurate and simple thugs would be more undiciplined and have a restricted set of skills etc..

But that is already in pretty much all action games.

DX:HR Thugs: Minimal HP, no grenades, basic weaponry.
DX:HR Mercs: Augs, throw grenades, decent HP, stronger weaponry.

There probably are other minor differences too such as accuracy, movement speed, reaction time, reload speed etc.

Want I want to see is just have some mercs and police communicate via radio, sometimes calling in backup, other times sounding alarms putting the rest of the level on high alert, or something along those lines.

However, greater individualism among groups of enemies would still be cool. Combat individualism as an example: a single specific Merc with a 30% chance surrendering if he is the last man of his squad standing. Another where he goes to use his radio in cover if he spots you but realises he lost it somehow. Another where he starts screaming when you kill his team mate which happens to be his lover/close friend, and rushes you screaming at the top of his lungs. Stuff like that. Rather easy to add stuff too.

I should really stop giving away my design ideas :/

Cyberhuman
7th Nov 2013, 03:52
But that is already in pretty much all action games.

DX:HR Thugs: Minimal HP, no grenades, basic weaponry.
DX:HR Mercs: Augs, throw grenades, decent HP, stronger weaponry.

There probably are other minor differences too such as accuracy, movement speed, reaction time, reload speed etc.

Want I want to see is just have some mercs and police communicate via radio, sometimes calling in backup, other times sounding alarms putting the rest of the level on high alert, or something along those lines.

However, greater individualism among groups of enemies would still be cool. Even a single specific Merc with a 10% chance surrendering when he is the last man of his squad standing. Another where he goes to use his radio but realises he lost it somehow. Another we he starts screaming when you kill his team mate which happens to be his lover/close friend, and rushes you screaming at the top of his lungs. Stuff like that.

True, some of the things you mention are already present, but im not sure about the difference in accuracy, movement speed, reaction time etc.. maybe there are some differences? Are you sure you've noticed this?

But definitely what we talked about earlier; greater contextual awareness among NPC's (appropriate reaction/respons triggers)

Tverdyj
7th Nov 2013, 14:21
@Akira01: Yeah I know. Trying to remember, I think it was squads that worked together to bait you into a trap, advanced flanking techniques that got you killed from behind before you realized where they were, and intelligent use of grenades that would just kill you if you were trying to fight from cover.

Basically, a bunch of the realities why one person fighting alone against a competent group of opponents would be screwed unless they were indestructible.

F.E.A.R. supposedly has AI like that. At least at one point, it was a benchmark for FPS AI (i'm yet to play it, it's in the backlog)

S.T.A.L.K.E.R. games have pretty good combat AI. I've played it for the first time round the time I played Bioshock. As a shooter, Bioshock's terrible compared to S.T.A.L.K.E.R. S.T.A.L.K.E.R's system has its peculiarities, but it was some of the most enjoyable gunplay I've ever experienced, especially taking on a bunch of bandits with low-class SMGs with a double-barrel sawed-off, that requires super-close range, and a long-time to reload.

Cyberhuman
9th Nov 2013, 04:15
I've got something to say that I think is important.

The devs should not have listened to consumers demanding that certain changes be made, to what was already a great game (boss fights, yes, fair enought, but this was outsourced anyways).

Im talking specifically about the Golden-haze look. I think this was a very good artistic choice and can't for the life of me understand why this was such a big issue. This particular element gave DE:HR its soul, and now when I've seen a comparision with the DC version (i have not - and wont - buy it) it looks so empty, like something is missing, that one element that gives a game its unique feeling, in the case of HR it was the golden haze, which IMO was very beautiful. When this element is missing the unique atmosphere that was part of the original experience is gone, and it does not feel right.

Im worried now, that when the sequal comes around they will take the "no atmosphere approach" and as a result we will see a game without a clear identity and we will miss out on the exciting thematic evolution they probably had planned for the series; it will be there, but it wont be as distinguished or unique as it should have been.

I want EM to - stick with - and be true to their artistic vision. I dont want them to change things around based on the complaints from "fans" or even thoughtful advice from real fans, particularly not when its related to artistic choices. They should listen to reasonable fans and take their advice into consideration and improve things that can be improved upon. But what was done with the DC in terms of the atmosphere and overall feel of the game was not an improvement, it was just a change of preference, and this change altered the identity of the game.

People complain more than ever now that the DC is released, they even have a petition going on Steam, to "Bring the yellow haze Back"!

So stay with what you've planned EM, don't change just because some people don't like what you've done. I hope you will give us what you originally planned for the franchise. Keep up the good work!

Berr
9th Nov 2013, 04:57
I've got something to say that I think is important.

The devs should not have listened to consumers demanding that certain changes be made, to what was already a great game (boss fights, yes, fair enought, but this was outsourced anyways).

Im talking specifically about the Golden-haze look. I think this was a very good artistic choice and can't for the life of me understand why this was such a big issue. This particular element gave DE:HR its soul, and now when I've seen a comparision with the DC version (i have not - and wont - buy it) it looks so empty, like something is missing, that one element that gives a game its unique feeling, in the case of HR it was the golden haze, which IMO was very beautiful. When this element is missing the unique atmosphere that was part of the original experience is gone, and it does not feel right.

Im worried now, that when the sequal comes around they will take the "no atmosphere approach" and as a result we will see a game without a clear identity and we will miss out on the exciting thematic evolution they probably had planned for the series; it will be there, but it wont be as distinguished or unique as it should have been.

I want EM to - stick with - and be true to their artistic vision. I dont want them to change things around based on the complaints from "fans" or even thoughtful advice from real fans, particularly not when its related to artistic choices. They should listen to reasonable fans and take their advice into consideration and improve things that can be improved upon. But what was done with the DC in terms of the atmosphere and overall feel of the game was not an improvement, it was just a change of preference, and this change altered the identity of the game.

People complain more than ever now that the DC is released, they even have a petition going on Steam, to "Bring the yellow haze Back"!

So stay with what you've planned EM, don't change just because some people don't like what you've done. I hope you will give us what you originally planned for the franchise. Keep up the good work!

Agreed!

Golden Haze 4 Life! Bring back the golden haze! Don't listen to the haters. (For real, I liked the gold).

pirate1802
9th Nov 2013, 07:34
I liked the gold too. Its missing in the DC?

Cyberhuman
9th Nov 2013, 08:35
Agreed!

Golden Haze 4 Life! Bring back the golden haze! Don't listen to the haters. (For real, I liked the gold).

I am pleased to hear that more people feel strongly about this. I hope EM make the right choices for the next game. The problem is that the DC now is refered to as the definitive edition.

Can you imagine Picasso betraying his original vision for a painting, deciding to change the way it would look and feel, just to appease people who probably don't even know anything about art?


I liked the gold too. Its missing in the DC?

Yes, the golden haze has been watered down and its very unfortunate IMO. The game has lost some of its unique identity.

Shralla
9th Nov 2013, 09:13
I think this was a very good artistic choice and can't for the life of me understand why this was such a big issue.

Because it looks terrible, and is a terrible artistic choice. It's a cop-out.


This particular element gave DE:HR its soul, and now when I've seen a comparision with the DC version (i have not - and wont - buy it) it looks so empty, like something is missing, that one element that gives a game its unique feeling, in the case of HR it was the golden haze

Because every other area of art design was lacking. The golden haze essentially covered up an ugly game.


Im worried now, that when the sequal comes around they will take the "no atmosphere approach" and as a result we will see a game without a clear identity and we will miss out on the exciting thematic evolution they probably had planned for the series; it will be there, but it wont be as distinguished or unique as it should have been.

Give me a break. Plenty of media in all forms achieve fantastic and cohesive visual design without relying entirely on an elementary concept like singular color palettes. The idea that the game will somehow be less "atmospheric" for lack of everything having a post-process filter slapped on it is absurd, never mind the idea that there will be "no atmosphere" because of it. I don't find the haze atmospheric at all. I find it obtrusive and artificial. Everything is gold even when the lights are blue? It's an ineffective visual tool when used on such a scale.


Can you imagine Picasso betraying his original vision for a painting, deciding to change the way it would look and feel, just to appease people who probably don't even know anything about art?

I'm sorry, but :rolleyes:

Cyberhuman
9th Nov 2013, 11:06
Because it looks terrible, and is a terrible artistic choice. It's a cop-out.

Because every other area of art design was lacking. The golden haze essentially covered up an ugly game.

So you think that's what this is all about, the artistic choice I was refering to is really just a cop-out? If that is the case, then I guess they made the right decision when they chose to refine the visuals of the game, since the original version did not represent an artistic choice sprung out of conviction, but rather out of pure practicality. You might be right about that, but it would be interesting to hear from the devs themselves what they have to say about it; or maybe you've heard something?

I still believe that the unique atmosphere of the game is diminished and I prefer the original version of the game.

My Picasso comment still rings true if im right about this; but if you're right and this was a cop-out, then it falls flat.

pirate1802
9th Nov 2013, 13:27
Yes, the golden haze has been watered down and its very unfortunate IMO. The game has lost some of its unique identity.

Well then my chances of buying that is significantly reduced.

WildcatPhoenix
9th Nov 2013, 22:43
The devs should not have listened to consumers demanding that certain changes be made, to what was already a great game (boss fights, yes, fair enought, but this was outsourced anyways).

Im talking specifically about the Golden-haze look. I think this was a very good artistic choice and can't for the life of me understand why this was such a big issue.

I have no problem with it as an artistic choice. I consider the "golden haze," as you call it, to be a noble failure. Personally I found the color palette to be ugly and far too pervasive, but at the very least I appreciate JJB and the EM team having the creativity and courage to go for something different.


This particular element gave DE:HR its soul, and now when I've seen a comparision with the DC version (i have not - and wont - buy it) it looks so empty, like something is missing, that one element that gives a game its unique feeling, in the case of HR it was the golden haze, which IMO was very beautiful. When this element is missing the unique atmosphere that was part of the original experience is gone, and it does not feel right.


I think you're seriously overstating the importance of this design aspect. Gave DX:HR its "soul?" Seriously? A monochromatic yellow filter?



Im worried now, that when the sequal comes around they will take the "no atmosphere approach" and as a result we will see a game without a clear identity and we will miss out on the exciting thematic evolution they probably had planned for the series; it will be there, but it wont be as distinguished or unique as it should have been.


This is an irritating argument that has been around ever since screenshots of DX:HR first started to leak out to the public. Art design built around a single dominant color does NOT equate to "atmosphere." The most interesting aspects of DX:HR's visual presentation centered around the cyber-Renaissance (another noble failure, IMO) and the integration of fundamental geometric patterns into the architecture and character design.

As for thematic evolution, the only connection the yellow filter really has to the themes of the story involve the concept of a "golden age." I'm hoping DX4 moves away from this concept as quickly as possible (assuming DX4 is set between DX:HR and DX1, this golden age should actually be starting to crumble and degenerate into the grungy, broken-down, decaying wreckage of DX1.) Abandoning the golden palette therefore contributes to the thematic evolution of the story rather than detracts from it.



I want EM to - stick with - and be true to their artistic vision. I dont want them to change things around based on the complaints from "fans" or even thoughtful advice from real fans, particularly not when its related to artistic choices. They should listen to reasonable fans and take their advice into consideration and improve things that can be improved upon.


In other words, only listen to those "reasonable fans" who share your opinion, eh?



Can you imagine Picasso betraying his original vision for a painting, deciding to change the way it would look and feel, just to appease people who probably don't even know anything about art?


Hyperbole and condescension, what a delightful combination!




Yes, the golden haze has been watered down and its very unfortunate IMO. The game has lost some of its unique identity.

Unique identity, perhaps. I can understand fans of DX:HR being upset if the director's cut really did scale back the distinctive yellow filter. I don't agree with it, but I guess I can understand it.

I don't, however, agree that we should be mad if DX4 decides to go away from it.

Pinky_Powers
9th Nov 2013, 23:01
This time around I'd like to see no SDK or mod support. There was just too much of it in HR. The modding scene was a mad house. I felt nervous going on the internet, in fear of a new Human Revolution mod being shoved down my throat. And doctors say you're not even supposed to put mods in your throat!

The whole thing makes me nervous still. Bad modders!

WildcatPhoenix
9th Nov 2013, 23:09
This time around I'd like to see no SDK or mod support. There was just too much of it in HR. The modding scene was a mad house. I felt nervous going on the internet, in fear of a new Human Revolution mod being shoved down my throat. And doctors say you're not even supposed to put mods in your throat!

The whole thing makes me nervous still. Bad modders!

Heh. Leave it to Pinky to pioneer a new approach to this conundrum...

Cyberhuman
9th Nov 2013, 23:32
WildcatPhoenix

I have no problem with it as an artistic choice. I consider the "golden haze," as you call it, to be a noble failure. Personally I found the color palette to be ugly and far too pervasive, but at the very least I appreciate JJB and the EM team having the creativity and courage to go for something different.
Well, at least you recognize it as a legitimate artistic choice; others have stated that they think it was just a cop-out, to compensate for low visual quality.


WildcatPhoenix

I think you're seriously overstating the importance of this design aspect. Gave DX:HR its "soul?" Seriously? A monochromatic yellow filter?

I can agree with that, but I have to clarify this. What I really was refering to was the artistic choice the devs had made and how it could seem like they reconsidered this specific choice based on the feedback they got from consumers; then they apparently gave in and provided what consumers wanted in the definitive version, DC. So if this is the case, then some of the "soul" in the game was lost, because the artistic integrity of the EM team was compromised when they chose to please said consumers, rather than standing up for the original choice and thereby preserving the artistic integrity of the team.

Im not saying im right, but I hope this makes it clearer.


WildcatPhoenix

This is an irritating argument that has been around ever since screenshots of DX:HR first started to leak out to the public. Art design built around a single dominant color does NOT equate to "atmosphere." The most interesting aspects of DX:HR's visual presentation centered around the cyber-Renaissance (another noble failure, IMO) and the integration of fundamental geometric patterns into the architecture and character design.

My opinion is not that this single color palette makes up the entire atmosphere of the game, just that it was a very important aspect of it; for me at least.


WildcatPhoenix

As for thematic evolution, the only connection the yellow filter really has to the themes of the story involve the concept of a "golden age." I'm hoping DX4moves away from this concept as quickly as possible (assuming DX4 is set between DX:HR and DX1, this golden age should actually be starting to crumble and degenerate into the grungy, broken-down, decaying wreckage of DX1.) Abandoning the golden palette therefore contributes to the thematic evolution of the story rather than detracts from it.

Yes, and I know they said that the yellow represented the color and feel of old manuscripts. The old becomes new again, hence the renaissance theme. I expect them to move away from this theme and im looking forward to see what they come up with.


WildcatPhoenix

In other words, only listen to those "reasonable fans" who share your opinion, eh?

Please don't do that.. I made a real effort in my post to avoid a standard reply like this. There are reasonable fans out there and there are people who complain all the time, and sadly they are often heard, because they scream the loudest. I never asked for a DC in the first place and I was surprised when they said they would do it; but people are still complaining and as I mentioned earlier there is a petition on Steam to bring the yellow haze back. You see where im coming from? All I want is for the team to stand by the choices they make.


WildcatPhoenix

Hyperbole and condescension, what a delightful combination!

I agree, this was an emotional statement. I was of the opinion that EM might have changed their mind about their artistic choice based on complaints from fans, and this is not a good thing, since integrity is so important when we're talking about artistic expression and creativity.


WildcatPhoenix

Unique identity, perhaps. I can understand fans of DX:HR being upset if the director's cut really did scale back the distinctive yellow filter. I don't agree with it, but I guess I can understand it.


I don't, however, agree that we should be mad if DX4 decides to go away from it.

I understand. This is a very subjective matter.

CyberP
11th Nov 2013, 06:20
What I really was refering to was the artistic choice the devs had made and how it could seem like they reconsidered this specific choice based on the feedback they got from consumers; then they apparently gave in and provided what consumers wanted in the definitive version, DC. So if this is the case, then some of the "soul" in the game was lost, because the artistic integrity of the EM team was compromised when they chose to please said consumers, rather than standing up for the original choice and thereby preserving the artistic integrity of the team.

What integrity was lost, exactly? The artistic value of those outsourced boss fights? Everything else they did in the DC was not requested by anyone, at least not anyone legitimate.


My opinion is not that this single color palette makes up the entire atmosphere of the game, just that it was a very important aspect of it; for me at least.


Indeed it was, and I too appreciate the uniqueness, the artistic value of it, but it isn't something I'd do because firstly variety is a must, and secondly because Deus Ex is meant to be grounded in reality somewhat.



Please don't do that.. I made a real effort in my post to avoid a standard reply like this. There are reasonable fans out there and there are people who complain all the time, and sadly they are often heard, because they scream the loudest.


Nobody has been heard. Highlighting, boss fights and new game+, the latter being a trivial request from those lacking in perspective.
Highlighting and bossfights were no-brainers, anybody could see why they were a problem.
There are plenty other just as important issues as these two in need of revision.

Cyberhuman
11th Nov 2013, 13:10
What integrity was lost, exactly? The artistic value of those outsourced boss fights? Everything else they did in the DC was not requested by anyone, at least not anyone legitimate.

Indeed it was, and I too appreciate the uniqueness, the artistic value of it, but it isn't something I'd do because firstly variety is a must, and secondly because Deus Ex is meant to be grounded in reality somewhat.

Nobody has been heard. Highlighting, boss fights and new game+, the latter being a trivial request from those lacking in perspective.
Highlighting and bossfights were no-brainers, anybody could see why they were a problem.
There are plenty other just as important issues as these two in need of revision.

I did mentioned in an earlier post that the boss fights were outsourced, I was well aware of this and for that reason changing the boss fights was a good thing.

I was specifically refering to the golden-haze look and I know there had been a lot of complaints about that specific choice; so maybe it was not a request, but EM certainly was aware of the dissatisfaction among consumers and so they decided to change it for the DC. As I said, I might not be right, but it seems like this might be what happened and this was the source of my reaction.

I can see where you're coming from when you say that variety is important, but wouldn't you say that the original Deus Ex also tried to aim for a common theme? A sort of dystopian, dark/grey feel to it that permeated the world; kind of reminiscent of another historical epoch, the Dark Ages. I think the renaissance theme in DE:HR is a very good contrast to the vision we're presented with in Deus Ex, which seems more like a world in decay.

nucl3arsnake
14th Nov 2013, 03:37
It's not the gameplay that made me like HR, a silenced pistol and a couple useful augs made it too easy. Its much more the immersive story and design. (including the golden haze, pretty sure most of us liked it) What I would most like to see though, is an early 2030's setting. West Coast earthquake, Northwest Secessionist Forces, war in Texas, etc. SOOOO much conspiracy goin on here, should be easy to make a great game. Plus, it could stay unrelated to HR, so none of the choices would have to be canon.

maas79
14th Nov 2013, 14:52
1. Randomise door codes, item locations and even guard locations (and the number of guards)

After a few play throughs you start to remember some of the door/safe codes and pretty much all the item locations (ammunition etc). I think if you started moving items around (and changing them - so 1 game playthrough gives you Combat Rifle Ammo in a particular store cabinet, the next playthrough you find Revolver ammo there).
And by moving items around means you will have to "look" for them rather than just heading straight to a particular cabinet/draw.
Also change the number guards (or at least the weapons the carry) to make it more repayable. So instead of facing the same 5 guards (2 heavies), you might find 4 guards (all heavies), or 7 guards 1 heavy etc.

2. Lets have an outer space level! We've had Antarctica, underwater ocean rig, we've had nothing in space! Maybe a mission where you go to the International Space Station (most likely more sophisticated station in the future with lifts, and rooms etc).

3. Lets have an Africa level (or middle east). Getting a bit bored of the China/HongKong levels

4. Make the game HARDER! Once you get the hang of it (after a couple of hours playing) its just too easy. Even the "Give me Deus Ex" is just too easy!

5. Augmentations. Revert to making choices like in the first game where you had Canisters and you had a choice on which to augmentation to make, and the choice is permanent. Like running faster or running silent, you cant have both. And like above with the randomisation you would have them located in different places on each play through so you are not just going straight to the same cabinet to find the canister.

6. Unhackable doors (like in the first game). There should be certain doors/vaults which are unhackable where you do need to get the key/code from a guard or a computer etc. The vast majority should be of course hackable but there should be a small number (maybe mission critical ones) where you need to get a key of someone.

7. "Timed" missions or timed side quests. One of the problems with the game is that you can take as long as you want on missions, taking out guards one by one, stopping for a smoke in between. Lets vary the missions so you might have one where you need to infiltrate a building, take out some guards and steel an item within 5 minutes or you lose the reward etc

8. Police more deadly. I dont like how you can walk around a city street, shoot dead some civilians and then just carry on walking. Alarms should be ringing everywhere, military bots should be coming out of walls!

Jerion
14th Nov 2013, 18:06
Personally speaking, and this is just one little thing that's stuck with me ever since the big CGI trailers- I would like to see a smaller variant of the Boxgaurd that is small enough to follow the player into vents, preferably with appropriately high-pitched vocal barks. Also, visiting London, Moscow or perhaps a middle-eastern location would certainly add some great variety!

CyberP
15th Nov 2013, 07:02
I would like to see a smaller variant of the Boxgaurd that is small enough to follow the player into vents, preferably with appropriately high-pitched vocal barks.

So you basically want spiderbots but with annoying barks? Wouldn't an early spiderbot prototype be more suitable, depending on the year the game is set?

Anyone who designs their robot to have irritating high pitched voices needs a stern talking to :D
Though my argument wouldn't be more than "because it ******* annoys me". I couldn't even explain why. Strange....
Fields of Psychology, perhaps I underestimated you.

Heh.

Galatele
15th Nov 2013, 20:50
Wishlist for new Deus ex:

-ANIMALS Fu**ing animals please bring them back Eidos Montreal
-More Augmentations and maybe skills
-Fix the broken xp system
-swimming (adds level variety^^)
-More hub areas about 3 or four i would say
-No auto health god damn it
-more tracks from Michael MCcann^^ (THAT GUY RULEZ!!!)

Shralla
15th Nov 2013, 22:12
-ANIMALS Fu**ing animals please bring them back Eidos Montreal

THIS. They added animals to GTAV and it was seriously one of the best decisions they made. In the future, there will still be rats and pigeons in cities. They've adapted better than anything else! And there will still be stray dogs and cats too! This was a serious downfall of HR's believability. Everywhere you go as long as there are people there are also animals. Bring them back!


-swimming (adds level variety^^)

!!!! PLEASE THIS.

Berr
16th Nov 2013, 02:35
I didn't realize I was missing animals in DXHR but now that you mention it, I think it must be one of the main missing elements of city hubs. Cats, dogs, rats, pigeons, would love to see them all around the place.

I wouldn't mind seeing swimming added either but I think EM have already established in the fiction that physically augmented people are too heavy and would just drown, so they'd have a job on their hands explaining swimming if they add it back.

Shralla
16th Nov 2013, 04:53
Swimming augs, easy. If my arms can have swords, my feet can have turbines.

Pinky_Powers
16th Nov 2013, 05:47
Your feet already have turbines, you gadgety bint.

TheAugmentedBox
18th Nov 2013, 00:15
I took some of the things discussed in this forum thread and created a video out of it.

MGEEajF5n34

Thanks for watching :D

Shralla
18th Nov 2013, 00:24
bint.

I love that word so much. Very underused in modern society. High five!

Spades
18th Nov 2013, 01:03
Less useless augs. Most of HR's augs (like the entire stealth enhancer tree) were pretty useless imo

Shralla
18th Nov 2013, 06:21
How many augs do we really need to see people behind walls? Radar, x-ray, and mark and track, plus third-person cover?

Lucifer
18th Nov 2013, 10:31
I hope they will improve hacking by adding progression that will allow a hacker get floor plans and cut out the lights in the building.After this all guards would be on higher alert , regroup and search after hacker like in the movie.Map system is welcome.

CyberP
18th Nov 2013, 12:14
I took some of the things discussed in this forum thread and created a video out of it.

Thanks for watching :D

Why not just post on the forums? As a 9min video it's hard to actually discuss anything and correct all those mistakes you made :p
Proper discussion is more beneficial anyway over the blog-like nature of that video.

Pinky_Powers
18th Nov 2013, 13:04
I love that word so much. Very underused in modern society. High five!

:thumb:

Smoke43
21st Nov 2013, 18:57
Hello me being the guy who made this thread i personally want more this.

1. More Character development why? Once you meet a character you either forget who it was or what he does. For example Vasili Sevchenko you first meet him in the begging in the game but don't remember him after you track his GPL. You don't know anything about Adam Jensen's history same to Megan Reed we don't if she is honest or not. The characters need to be worked out.

2. Better development tools why? You can hear in the Directors Cut comments that the dev team, complains that they cut alot of the game content like Megan, suppose to be in Panchea to the end i personally would loved to see that. This messege is Square Enix owners of Eidos Montreal please put more resources to the team because they are very talented people. In creation this wonderful game with correct resources they can achieve better results.

3.More options do and places and bigger if you actually noticed the game lacks of things to do. You may wonder why in first you don't have melee weapons in second Detroit and Hensha map repeat it self after the Montreal map it get boring if you don't have things to do.


I personally think that Eidos Montreal needs to add alot of stuff because the game is nice but it lacks stuff of a modern game.

If any Moderator reads this please give this whole threat to the Eidos this is fans want in a new Deus ex game and also tell Square Enix to put more money on Eidos and Deus ex because Square Enix have golden GEM GAME in the hand it well sad if they just trash the series

BridgetFisher
21st Nov 2013, 19:26
Id really like third person perspective please.
Id like an animation for sitting and lying down and id like when I drink something to see it raised up or when eating something.

And can someone send the controller mapping designer a memo that the A button is the most used button, Deus Ex seems to heavily rely on the x button where every other game uses the A button, its weird. Im always hitting a to do stuff but nothing happens in dialogs or inventors until I hit X.

That video up there, he opens an ebook, hey see that! everyone see that! because on my screen it looks all tiny and in the middle, the scaling is off, I cant read it, I made a thread about that but it would be nice if someone could flag it for an upcoming patch.

Shralla
21st Nov 2013, 21:11
Id really like third person perspective please.

Again and again, no. The ability to freely switch perspectives works in a game like Elder Scrolls where the gameplay is so basic that it genuinely doesn't matter. People literally only ask for this because Elder Scrolls and Fallout added it. Aside from that, there are NO popular games where perspective switching is a thing because adding that feature takes up resources that could be used to make the game more enjoyable from ONE perspective. No game with free switching is EVER going to be as good as it could have been if it had picked one and stuck with it. Jack of all trades, master of none. Deus Ex already IS a jack of all trades game, and we don't need its core being weakened by such a terrible decision. Deus Ex is a first person game, and always has been. Go play one of the THOUSANDS of third-person games if you want to play a third-person game. They're more popular then they've ever been.


Id like an animation for sitting and lying down and id like when I drink something to see it raised up or when eating something.

That is also a complete waste of resources.

Cyberhuman
22nd Nov 2013, 03:52
Id really like third person perspective please.
Id like an animation for sitting and lying down and id like when I drink something to see it raised up or when eating something.

Deus Ex is a 1st person experience. 3rd person perspective is implemented every now and then, so that should be enough.

Now that I think about it, I would love it if we could travel to Japan in the next Deus Ex..

pirate1802
22nd Nov 2013, 04:13
Go play one of the THOUSANDS of third-person games if you want to play a third-person game. They're more popular then they've ever been.

Or you know, he can just play this game? See this is the problem I have with h4rdc0R3 fanbases. They seem to be so harsh on anything that doesn't fit their narrow worldview. This thread is for people to post what they'd like, no? The guy (or girl) just posted his wish. You don't need to shoo him away because his idea of a good game doesn't meet your idea of a good game.

As for the option, I (and maybe him) find 3rd person modes much more immersive that floaty hands FP mode.. yes I know blasphemy! But that's that. So I'd want the TP mode to stay there. Its perfectly alright if you find FP mode more immersive. Perfectly fine. I won't tell you to play other games. :p

CyberP
22nd Nov 2013, 04:32
3PP is a waste of resources for a game that should be primarily in FPP. The original Deus Ex developers and related history stretching further back than Ion Storm was all about first person, and rightly so. A waste of resources in requiring more anims most notably.
Note I am not biased as I enjoy both perspectives.

I love repeating myself :/

There are solid facts as to why FPP is superior for this type of game. The most notable one being decent interaction with the world. I have a feeling that EM would have had the game TPP only, or did at first, until they came to the realization that interaction on a Deus Ex scale just doesn't work properly in TPP. It would explain odd things such as ladders being in TPP for one. I guess an early alpha build was all TPP, but that's a wild uniformed guess. It certainly does feel that way though, little possible indicators

Anyway, just go play Fallout: NV in third person, recognise all the tiny objects you fail to find. Stashes hidden under beds, individual bullets, singular bottle caps etc. Also enjoy the poor anims that clearly had little effort put into them cos the devs had their priorities right. It's just a quick and easy feature passed on from FO3 for sales.

Also, if you find Third Person Perspective more immersive than the same perspective that humans have your gaming mentality is a little backwards ;)
Floating hands? Not always, some FP games have full body awareness or close to it.

In truth I DO prefer FP over TP, because facts. However I love a lot of TP games though very few modern ones, most of those make me cringe, TP action games at least. They have strayed into the mindless gameplay territory. But then again so has many FP games, especially FPS.

Shralla
22nd Nov 2013, 05:07
Or you know, he can just play this game? See this is the problem I have with h4rdc0R3 fanbases. They seem to be so harsh on anything that doesn't fit their narrow worldview. This thread is for people to post what they'd like, no? The guy (or girl) just posted his wish. You don't need to shoo him away because his idea of a good game doesn't meet your idea of a good game.

I'm not telling him to go play other games, period. I'm telling him to go play other games if he wants to play a third-person game. Deus Ex is not that game if that's what he's looking for.


As for the option, I (and maybe him) find 3rd person modes much more immersive that floaty hands FP mode.. yes I know blasphemy! But that's that. So I'd want the TP mode to stay there. Its perfectly alright if you find FP mode more immersive. Perfectly fine. I won't tell you to play other games. :p

I understand that. The problem is that like I said, the technical implementation of such a system will essentially render one view point or the other crippled at best, and useless at worst. Third and first-person games require very different sets of rules as far as world building and player interaction go. The contextual third-person cover mode is not as big a problem because you can only do it in certain spots, but even if you were to implement leaning in first-person it still would be crippled in comparison to the third-person cover.

Then of course there is the issue of resources that CyberP reiterated. Turning a first-person game third-person is not an easy task, and requires significant amounts of additional time (or manpower) and effort to make work. And even if they were to do that, see above.

I'm not going to go into what viewpoints are better for what kinds of games, because that's not really the point that I'm making.

pirate1802
22nd Nov 2013, 05:34
I'm not telling him to go play other games, period. I'm telling him to go play other games if he wants to play a third-person game. Deus Ex is not that game if that's what he's looking for.

Essentially the same thing, considering what he's asking for. And it is never that simple is it? Go play gear of war if you want a third person game, go play call of duty if you want a first person game yada yada. Normally people don't just play a game because its a certain mode. They play it because they like something more. I didn't start playing Deus Ex because it had that awesome!! third person mode. I'd have liked it even if it was fully first person as well. I just like it ore because there is the occasional third person in it. It is a bit empty to ask people to play other games of the same mode because it assumes that the said person only plays the game because it is in first/third person.

Anyhow, I'm not asking for a Fallout/Skyrim style full third person mode. I know what problems it can bring. I just want the third person cover system to remain because I find it more immersive when I can see my full body, strange that.

BridgetFisher
22nd Nov 2013, 05:36
Pretty sure third person games are very popular, AC4 was recently released by Ubisoft with sales most other game developers could only dream of. Try telling that to Cliff who makes Gears of War that noone likes third person games, and watch him laugh as he throws hundred dollar bills. Game design is an art, which means its normal not everyone understand the process of what goes into making a game.

Animations that count towards immersion are never a waste of resources. Immersion is what gameplay is about, that is what separate the big dogs from the wannabes out there.

I wouldnt worry about "hardcore" gamers, or people on a forum for a particular game as another person mentioned. These fans will always buy any game that comes out since their fans, so the goal is to grow the population often oddly by ignoring the hardcore fans since as a market hardcore fans already going to buy anything made. They make up a niche group for any game out there, thats just how it is. Their fans and fans should have a place to discuss things they like or dont like, extreme views are normal among any fanbase. Looking at titles like DMC and any other with a rabid fanbase such as the pokemon games, when shifts in gameplay occur they freak out, but the plus side is they get new friends since the games reach a new audience with more people to share something they all love.

CyberP
22nd Nov 2013, 06:21
I just want the third person cover system to remain because I find it more immersive when I can see my full body, strange that.

As I just mentioned: Full body awareness in First person games is a thing.


Pretty sure third person games are very popular, AC4 was recently released by Ubisoft with sales most other game developers could only dream of.

Who said anything about popularity? Sales? CoD holds the record dear, a First Person game. Not that this is relevant to the discussion at all.


Immersion is what gameplay is about

Lol, if you say so.


I wouldnt worry about "hardcore" gamers, or people on a forum for a particular game as another person mentioned. These fans will always buy any game that comes out since their fans, so the goal is to grow the population often oddly by ignoring the hardcore fans since as a market hardcore fans already going to buy anything made.

I haven't bought The Fall, The Icarus Effect, The Directors Cut and more. I don't think I even deserve to be called a fan, though I would like it if EM considered me one. They know I have a large enough soft spot for them and their game (+DLC, mostly TML) :)


They make up a niche group for any game out there, thats just how it is. Their fans and fans should have a place to discuss things they like or dont like, extreme views are normal among any fanbase.


Take your stereotyping elsewhere.


Looking at titles like DMC and any other with a rabid fanbase such as the pokemon games, when shifts in gameplay occur they freak out, but the plus side is they get new friends since the games reach a new audience with more people to share something they all love.

I don't want so called "friends" I want an outstanding product with outstanding gameplay, DX:HR wasn't it. Though it's not a bad attempt. Nobody online is my friend except under special circumstances or I know them IRL.

By the way I didn't follow the development of DMC but I played the game. I heard people were raging online, I don't blame them. DMC is a 6/10 at best. laughable design. I just kept shaking my head as I was playing and decided it wasn't worth the online ranting when I was done.

pirate1802
22nd Nov 2013, 06:31
As I just mentioned: Full body awareness.

Which very few FPSs have. the most immersive FPS I've played are the Metro games and only on Ranger mode. because you have to keep track of bullets, time, gas masks etc on your own without a hud telling you, but not even that game has full body awareness. And maybe I do have it backwards in that I find TP more immersive than human-mode, probably has something to do with being surrounded by the settings in real life compared to seeing the world through a screen. Maybe if I start playing games on the occulus rift I'd find FP better, ;)

CyberP
22nd Nov 2013, 06:47
Which very few FPSs have. the most immersive FPS I've played are the Metro games and only on Ranger mode. because you have to keep track of bullets, time, gas masks etc on your own without a hud telling you, but not even that game has full body awareness. And maybe I do have it backwards in that I find TP more immersive than human-mode, probably has something to do with being surrounded by the settings in real life compared to seeing the world through a screen. Maybe if I start playing games on the occulus rift I'd find FP better, ;)

Immersion/simulation design is simply a bonus, the icing on the cake. I'm not sure why many act as if it's the primary reason to play a game these days, especially when nobody has done it better than Looking Glass and a few others.
Try Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth, that would be my first recommendation if you want immersion (without it being a crap/mediocre game. Metro is immersive but it's not a special game by any means, for example. It's basically a more interesting Call of Duty).
That said, I do find Dead Space immersive (and other TPP games), but I think you should expand on your collection of FPP games, especially specific ones. Try that Cthulhu game. Available on Steam, though the xbox version is better if you have one (works on 360 too). It has no HUD at all and the gameplay is very manual, simulated: no automatic reloading, have to keep track of bullets, has leaning, good interaction, localized health system where using medkits takes time, aiming down the sights for too long causes your hands to shake a bit and much more.

As for your settings IRL, things around the TV/PC Monitor just fade out of existence for me once I get immersed. I'm in the game, I'm having fun and am really into it, I wouldn't be worrying about motionless crap in my peripheral.
Edit: Console gamer? I mentioned this before but sit closer to the TV, though it's probably a greater risk to eyesight.

TheYouthCounselor
22nd Nov 2013, 08:36
I'm fine with a third person perspective or takedowns. But can the next game have the option to remain completely in first person and have Farcry, Dishonored, Chronicles of Riddick: Escape From Butcher Bay, melee that remains in the first person perspective? They look way cooler.

I'd also love the option to get through the game without killing, and to skip boss fights.

pirate1802
22nd Nov 2013, 09:01
For me immersion is probably on the top of everything I look from a videogame. If it manages to pull me into its world environment etc, makes me feel I'm actually there then I'm likely to rate a game higher while others may not find it anything special (case in point: Metro.)

And no I'm a PC gamer, if I sit any closer my face would be bashing into my display..

About the crap around my TV, I was saying that because you said how can I find anything more immersive that first person mode (which is how we humans look at things), which is why I said that maybe because in real life you have your "display" all around you while in a game you are looking to the world through a window. Probably not a smart move saying this game's name but when I played Assassins Creed 2, I'd walk through the streets, rooftops of Venice and would be deeply immersed. I don't think I'd be as immersed if it was in first person mode. Hard to describe but I need to see my character on screen to be fully immersed..

BridgetFisher
22nd Nov 2013, 09:09
For me immersion is probably on the top of everything I look from a videogame. If it manages to pull me into its world environment etc, makes me feel I'm actually there then I'm likely to rate a game higher while others may not find it anything special (case in point: Metro.)

And no I'm a PC gamer, any closer and my face would be sailing into my display..

Immersion isnt a deal breaker for me, most games dont have it, they dont have the budget mostly due to mismanagement. Although to create a successful adventure game its essential. Without immersion then its just another game, something boring, bland, another tasteless flavor in an ocean of vanilla. *bleh*

I didnt know eidos made deus ex, is eidos the same as CD which means Crystal Dynamics? CD is who made tomb raider and those animations, WOW, just wow, some of THE best in gaming even going back CD was always on top of this. So if this is the same people, I would trust them over every other game studio out there to do animations because at CD they are precise about what they want and implement them only if they fit the game the way they want them too.

pirate1802
22nd Nov 2013, 09:16
It isn't a deal breaker for me as well, but it is a factor for me that is the difference between an okay game and a GREAT game, as you said.

And Eidos was the publisher who owned Crystal Dynamics and Eidos Montreal before SE bought Eidos, and hence EM and CD. So the TR people and DE people aren't the same but belonged to the same parent company. Eidos Montreal, makers of DE, however are the people who were behind TR's craptastic multiplayer. Take that for what its worth. :p

CyberP
22nd Nov 2013, 10:36
Probably not a smart move saying this game's name but

Unintelligent and felonious. :whistle:



I didnt know eidos made deus ex, is eidos the same as CD which means Crystal Dynamics? CD is who made tomb raider and those animations, WOW, just wow, some of THE best in gaming even going back CD was always on top of this. So if this is the same people, I would trust them over every other game studio out there to do animations because at CD they are precise about what they want and implement them only if they fit the game the way they want them too.



And Eidos was the publisher who owned Crystal Dynamics and Eidos Montreal before SE bought Eidos, and hence EM and CD.

Original creators of Deus Ex (Ion Storm) > Eidos Montreal.
Original creators of Tomb Raider (Core Design) > Crystal Dynamics.

But I could extend this list for quite a while easily.

Also, you're a pirate, your opinion has no weight around here :p (I'm joking, I am aware people in India don't have access to a lot of great electronic entertainment by legal means and other issues that somewhat justify doing what you do). However what does give your opinion weight around here is whether you have played the original Deus Ex, and then some :p

pirate1802
22nd Nov 2013, 14:02
Hey, I'm not that type of pirate! I'm one of those legendary precursors from the Caribbean! Damn kids these days, torrenting a movie and calling themselves one of us. :/

HERESY
22nd Nov 2013, 18:31
This thread is titled What would you like to see in a new Deus Ex game but people are telling others that what they would like to see is wrong? It's what THEY would like to see. If YOU would like to see something list what YOU would like to see but none of you have any right to tell anyone else that what they want to see is "wrong" or "wouldn't work."

CyberP
22nd Nov 2013, 19:15
This thread is titled What would you like to see in a new Deus Ex game but people are telling others that what they would like to see is wrong? It's what THEY would like to see. If YOU would like to see something list what YOU would like to see but none of you have any right to tell anyone else that what they want to see is "wrong" or "wouldn't work."

Some things are wrong. I'd tell someone who requested flying unicorns that you form a relationship with and groom something similar too.


Hey, I'm not that type of pirate! I'm one of those legendary precursors from the Caribbean! Damn kids these days, torrenting a movie and calling themselves one of us. :/

:)

Galatele
22nd Nov 2013, 21:03
I also would be happy if we get a big addon for Human Revolution with improved AI, animals and one or two additional hub areas...

Tverdyj
22nd Nov 2013, 21:09
Or you know, he can just play this game? See this is the problem I have with h4rdc0R3 fanbases. They seem to be so harsh on anything that doesn't fit their narrow worldview. This thread is for people to post what they'd like, no? The guy (or girl) just posted his wish. You don't need to shoo him away because his idea of a good game doesn't meet your idea of a good game.

As for the option, I (and maybe him) find 3rd person modes much more immersive that floaty hands FP mode.. yes I know blasphemy! But that's that. So I'd want the TP mode to stay there. Its perfectly alright if you find FP mode more immersive. Perfectly fine. I won't tell you to play other games. :p

As many others have said, it's not as easy as making an "optional" 3rd person. We've seen this with HR's own level design, especially the cover system--if you make a "modern" 3-rd person game, it WILL have chest-high walls, and sticky cover. And the levels will get designed around chest-high obstacles.

First-person stealth allows a lot more variety with stealth. it also encourages more robust level designs. I'm inceridbly glad that EM made it so that HR is actually playable without EVER having to switch to cover (though next time lean keys please, at least for PC, kthanxbai), but the in-your-face radar is part of the same problem.

CyberP
22nd Nov 2013, 21:33
As many others have said, it's not as easy as making an "optional" 3rd person. We've seen this with HR's own level design, especially the cover system--if you make a "modern" 3-rd person game, it WILL have chest-high walls, and sticky cover. And the levels will get designed around chest-high obstacles.

First-person stealth allows a lot more variety with stealth. it also encourages more robust level designs. I'm inceridbly glad that EM made it so that HR is actually playable without EVER having to switch to cover (though next time lean keys please, at least for PC, kthanxbai), but the in-your-face radar is part of the same problem.

First person is more challenging and should be more immersive too, since it's the same perspective a human has. Stating the obvious again.

Tverdyj
22nd Nov 2013, 22:10
First person is more challenging and should be more immersive too, since it's the same perspective a human has. Stating the obvious again.

eh, though I agree with you, i'm willing to play the devil's advocate on this one. Largely because "immersion" is such a personal thing, it's hard to come up with a coherent definition of just what is it that makes something "immersive".

I think just about the only thing both sides can agree on is that perspective-switching is the thing most likely to ruin immersion.

as for body awareness.... well, I believe every single first-person game that goes for that should copy Mirror's Edge. because that's about as good as we've gotten so far.

HERESY
22nd Nov 2013, 22:45
Some things are wrong. I'd tell someone who requested flying unicorns that you form a relationship with and groom something similar too.



:)

The thing is what you guys are saying is wrong and has already been refuted by developers. People say first person is more immersive and I provide links from devs saying there is no proof. People say it is a problem with item ineraction and I provide links from devs showing that can be rectified. Classic post after classic post, I have refuted the claims here. And what YOU and others fail to grasp is that this isn't a request thread. This is a what would you like to see thread so if someone would like to see umicorns, yippy ki yay *********a because that is what they want to see.

CyberP
22nd Nov 2013, 23:20
The thing is what you guys are saying is wrong and has already been refuted by developers. People say first person is more immersive and I provide links from devs saying there is no proof. People say it is a problem with item ineraction and I provide links from devs showing that can be rectified. Classic post after classic post, I have refuted the claims here.

Where are these links then? Since these posts of yours are so "classic" I'm sure you wouldn't mind fishing through them to find those links if you cannot remember the source?

Either way, yes, to be immersed is simply a state of mind. However logic says there is a greater chance to be immersed if the perspective is primarily in First Person, the same perspective a human has.

But I'd like to see these so-called refutals of 3rd person interaction sucking because facts cannot be refuted ;).


And what YOU and others fail to grasp is that this isn't a request thread.

Bah, semantics error. Requests; wishes, whatever.

HERESY
22nd Nov 2013, 23:50
The search engine is your friend.

CyberP
23rd Nov 2013, 00:06
The search engine is your friend.

All your wall o texts? No way. I need something specific at least besides "third person". I know you have discussed the subject many times.

sadmachine
23rd Nov 2013, 00:55
as for body awareness.... well, I believe every single first-person game that goes for that should copy Mirror's Edge. because that's about as good as we've gotten so far.

Outlast did some wonderfully gruesome stuff with this concept. I'd highlight some specific instances, but that'd be spoiling. Not a perfect game by any stretch, but when it's good it's really good.

Shralla
23rd Nov 2013, 06:59
Oh, and personally I want the next game to be first-person only because I want to play it on Oculus Rift.

Cyberhuman
23rd Nov 2013, 20:34
The thing is what you guys are saying is wrong and has already been refuted by developers. People say first person is more immersive and I provide links from devs saying there is no proof. People say it is a problem with item ineraction and I provide links from devs showing that can be rectified. Classic post after classic post, I have refuted the claims here.

In 1st person the illusion is that you are the one exploring a virtual world; when you play 3rd person this illusion fades away, because it is more apparant that you are actually exploring the virtual world through a proxy.

This will probably have a significant effect on the mind and so I think that 1st person perspective is potentially more immersive than 3rd person perspective.

HERESY
23rd Nov 2013, 22:26
In 1st person the illusion is that you are the one exploring a virtual world; when you play 3rd person this illusion fades away, because it is more apparant that you are actually exploring the virtual world through a proxy.

This will probably have a significant effect on the mind and so I think that 1st person perspective is potentially more immersive than 3rd person perspective.

I've already gone over this before and refuted it in depth. Use the search engine.

@Cyber, use your search engine.

3rdmillhouse
24th Nov 2013, 15:42
I'd like to know more about the insurectionist movements within the US, China's rise to global superpower, the Australian Civil War, Canada's military resurgency.

vb4
11th Dec 2013, 13:46
eh, though I agree with you, i'm willing to play the devil's advocate on this one. Largely because "immersion" is such a personal thing, it's hard to come up with a coherent definition of just what is it that makes something "immersive".

Case in point: DX1 had a lack of immersion for me because there was no light indicator on the HUD - I would consider having the same information that my character would have to be more immersive than getting far more clunky controls.
Also, Oculus Rift really helps because it makes the head movements more natural. I actually read that many shooters become trival when you can look around with the Rift, because it's just much more natural.

The most jarring thing are the Valve games, though.
Portal 1 is more immersive than Portal 2 to me, purely because Portal 2 has irregular surfaces that allow you to realize that you are just a floating camera. Because a normal person would easily get past the vines that block some passages.




as for body awareness.... well, I believe every single first-person game that goes for that should copy Mirror's Edge. because that's about as good as we've gotten so far.
Yeah, definitely. Games should really utilize already existing solutions to problems instead of constantly re-inventing the wheel. I guess it's okay when that specific aspect is the focus of your game, but if you do an FPS and aren't focusing on that aspect, you should just take a look at ME (Well, and keep the existence of that feature in mind when you design the levels).
Metroid Prime also gave a good impression of being in the game world, with the reflections on the visor, the hand movements, etc.

Shralla
11th Dec 2013, 22:27
Case in point: DX1 had a lack of immersion for me because there was no light indicator on the HUD - I would consider having the same information that my character would have to be more immersive than getting far more clunky controls.

That information was given to you in the environment. There was never a moment in Deus Ex where you weren't capable of knowing if you were in view or not just based on the darkness level around you. It's not Thief. It does not need a light gem, because the stealth is not anywhere near as in-depth as in Thief or other actual stealth games.

CyberP
11th Dec 2013, 22:41
That information was given to you in the environment. There was never a moment in Deus Ex where you weren't capable of knowing if you were in view or not just based on the darkness level around you. It's not Thief. It does not need a light gem, because the stealth is not anywhere near as in-depth as in Thief or other actual stealth games.

Yeah, and how the hell is a light gem on the HUD immersive anyhow? If it were an aug in DX, yes, it can fit in to the simulation aspect. If it were a gem in Thief NOT on the HUD, but rather a tool you have to equip in hand for the player to see, then that too would be Immersive. As it stands in Thief the light gem is NOT immersive, but rather a tool for gameplay that actually hinders simulation design somewhat.

Spades
12th Dec 2013, 00:17
i'd like it if weapon skills were brought back.

vb4
12th Dec 2013, 13:31
That information was given to you in the environment. There was never a moment in Deus Ex where you weren't capable of knowing if you were in view or not just based on the darkness level around you. It's not Thief. It does not need a light gem, because the stealth is not anywhere near as in-depth as in Thief or other actual stealth games.

The point was that MY way of judging lighting is far inferior to JC's way of judging lighting, because I cannot freely move my head, look at my own body or do whatever people in real life do to stay invisible.
This is about immersion, not about gameplay itself.


Yeah, and how the hell is a light gem on the HUD immersive anyhow? If it were an aug in DX, yes, it can fit in to the simulation aspect. If it were a gem in Thief NOT on the HUD, but rather a tool you have to equip in hand for the player to see, then that too would be Immersive. As it stands in Thief the light gem is NOT immersive, but rather a necessary tool for gameplay that actually hinders simulation design somewhat.
You are talking about a game where your body's health status is shown in the upper left corner. That's information that Jensen has but the player doesn't, because the player can't actually feel Jensen's broken arms.
It wouldn't be hard to extend the diagramm by having it mirror the degree of visibility of the player character.


It's immersive because it bridges a gap. It's a layer of abstraction that allows the player to actually know as much as the badass super spy that he's playing, instead of bumbling around like a four-year-old.
Sure, you CAN look at the shadows, because they are intended to be used like that and thus dumbed down. But I consider a more natural shadow system, combined with a direct information feed from the player character, to be far more immersive than lowering the complexity level of the environment to accomodate the limited input/output system that the player has.
It's the same idea with movement systems in FPS - I mentioned Portal 2 earlier, for example. Portal 1 and 2 are identical in movement, but in Portal 1 you don't really notice that you are a floating camera.
Meanwhile, in Portal 2, the environments got a lot more complex. And yet the movement options stayed extremely simple, which meant that you can suddenly reflect on the limitations of your own movement system.
For Portal 2 to have more immersion for me, it would need a Mirror's Edge-like mode of movement.
And here's the thing about that system: It automates part of your actions. It does exactly the same thing as a light gem on your HUD.
It bridges the distance between player input and character action, just like a HUD bridges the distance between character input and player reaction.
That's also why Mirror's Edge has damage direction markers, despite otherwise lacking a HUD. You only don't have a health bar because you regenerate quickly.


So, to get to the point:
I would want a really limited HUD if I was playing a full-body immersive game where I feel absolutely everything that the character feels. I would only want certain hints that symbolize the knowledge that the character has gained due to having more experience than me - Like the red markings in Mirror's Edge, for example. Naturally, I'd expect the ability to turn those off once I have internalized that knowledge.
But as long as we have primitive input methods and aren't even able to set up triple-screen gaming in most cases, I want the HUD to work as a bridge between player and player character.

In the end, it boils down to a philosophical question.
Do you want simple game worlds that work with minimal HUD or do you want more complex games that need additional comfort features?
Note, this doesn't make any of those better than the other. It's the sliding scale of pure gameplay vs simulation.

CyberP
12th Dec 2013, 15:13
In the end, it boils down to a philosophical question.
Do you want simple game worlds that work with minimal HUD or do you want more complex games that need additional comfort features?
Note, this doesn't make any of those better than the other. It's the sliding scale of pure gameplay vs simulation.

How about this instead: Complex games that do not need additional comfort features. You don't NEED a light gem, even with a deeper light/dark system. However, if it were an optional unlockable aug then that would be great. For Human Revolution it would be pointless however, since everywhere is lit up like a Christmas tree, but I did consider adding it as an aug in my DX1 mod at one point (and probably will if I can find a competent coder).

Light Gem= The aim assist of stealth. But as an optional aug, great (i'll have it replace silent running or something, which is even worse than a light gem, though speed enhancement also essentially gives Silent Running which is a problem).



It wouldn't be hard to extend the [locational health] diagram by having it mirror the degree of visibility of the player character.

Good idea.

HERESY
12th Dec 2013, 22:15
IMHO, HUDs should be integrated into the story, character and/or world.

When I see a HUD taking up a big chunk of my screen I know I'm playing a game. When I see "You just earned 50 xp for a headshot" I know I am playing a game. When my character is running around like a goddamn idiot with a weapon drawn 24/7, I know I'm playing a game. If I see all this info on screen there should be a reason, a believable reason within the confines of that game world, as to why I am seeing it. Why should Adam see "You just scored 50xp?" Is it an aug or microchip feeding him that information? Is it even important to him? Again, in a previous class post I mentioned the HUD in Dead Space. You're pretty much the HUD. Health, ammo count, stasis and oxygen, they're all presented on the avatar. Now mind you it is a third person game, and in a first person game you don't see your character that much (if at all) but the point is the HUD should be integrated in a way that feels "natural" or "organic."

Maps should be optional.
HUDs should be optional or given the ability to fade.

CyberP
12th Dec 2013, 23:38
IMHO, HUDs should be integrated into the story, character and/or world.

Agreed, where possible/necessary. Not all genres/games can do it and not all should.


When I see a HUD taking up a big chunk of my screen I know I'm playing a game. When I see "You just earned 50 xp for a headshot" I know I am playing a game. When my character is running around like a goddamn idiot with a weapon drawn 24/7, I know I'm playing a game.

These are all things the "true" Immersive Sims addressed many years ago.


Again, in a previous class post I mentioned the HUD in Dead Space.


Yes, Dead Space's HUD is excellent. Dead Space is half System Shock 2 half Resident Evil 4. Though not as good as either, though still a great game in it's own right.

Not too often I find myself in agreement with this jolly old chap :)

And stop referring to your posts as classic now will you? It's rather ironic considering more than half of them are....garbage :p

Oh. and as for maps should be optional, again in depends. Some games a map is vital to the gameplay, which is good, but if it is not then yes, should be optional (they almost always are anyway).

deus ex fan
13th Dec 2013, 16:28
dystopia,dystopia,dystopia........and more-claustrophobic-futuristic environments....more mind blowing visuals....

teh roxxors
14th Dec 2013, 00:55
Less DE:HR and more DE.

Experience system that balances lethal and non-lethal combat in a meaningful way, rather than coercing everyone to play the "right" way.

Augmentations that make the player feel more than human, as in the original game.

No more worthless augmentations.

A stronger narrative. Deeper intrigue.

Better NPCs. MUCH better NPC AI. No cardboard cutout NPCs. No more NPC clones.

Skills, as in the first game.

Swimming. Running. It's no fun playing as a handicapped asthmatic with a heart condition.

Better graphics.

Better performance.

vb4
29th Dec 2013, 19:34
Oh. and as for maps should be optional, again in depends. Some games a map is vital to the gameplay, which is good, but if it is not then yes, should be optional (they almost always are anyway).

Reminds me of the first Assassin's Creed.
The game was actually better without maps. Seriously, deactivate the minimap and never look at the map screen and suddenly your experience improves by multiple magnitudes.
You also start to notice that all NPC dialogue is written in a way that you don't need to have the objective markers on the minimap.

Mr.StickyStab
3rd Jan 2014, 23:00
I really want to see some cyber punk influence on the culture in the new game. I was reading Neuromancer and was just blown away by how different that outside world seemed (as it should be). I only got that feeling when playing Invisible War when I was younger. With both HR and the first DX I just seem like this technology was just overlaid on our existing world. With HR it makes some sense because it's just the beginning of augmentations. Some cool techo subcultures and real differences from todays world would make the world more believable.

MasterTaffer
3rd Jan 2014, 23:40
Reminds me of the first Assassin's Creed.
The game was actually better without maps. Seriously, deactivate the minimap and never look at the map screen and suddenly your experience improves by multiple magnitudes.
You also start to notice that all NPC dialogue is written in a way that you don't need to have the objective markers on the minimap.

Glad I wasn't the only one who did that. I'd navigate by climbing up somewhere high and looking for landmarks. There was something particularly satisfying about functioning that way.

Berr
4th Jan 2014, 01:36
vb4: I totally get what you are saying. It's fantasy to think full immersion is possible with our view of the world being a flat slab screen in front of us. Although status info HUDs do make a game easier, when they're doing so by giving us the information that would be readily apparent if we were really there, they are making it easier to immerse yourself in the character.

Shralla: Oh hell yes! Oculus Rift support (and obviously full first person) for DX4 would be beyond awesome. We wouldn't need the info HUDs like described immediately previously, we could just look down/around to take stock of our environment.

Actually, I reckon an Oculus Rift edition of DX1 would be a pretty amazing product. All it would need to do is tidy up a few bits that aren't quite VR-ready - like you'd need to be able to look down and see your own body. And maybe a pass over the control scheme introducing some onscreen selectors to make sure it could be controlled effectively without being able to see your hands on the keyboard.

I know people have done amazing mods to DX1, like introducing alternate rendering systems, is this something modders could do with DX1?

CyberP
4th Jan 2014, 02:15
is this something modders could do with DX1?

When there's a will there's a way. And the HUD wouldn't need to be removed. the HUD is meant to be your infolink, an aug. perfectly valid reason for it's existence, not to mention it's vital for conveying a ton of info to the player because it's a complex game in gameplay.

Berr
5th Jan 2014, 13:27
When there's a will there's a way. And the HUD wouldn't need to be removed. the HUD is meant to be your infolink, an aug. perfectly valid reason for it's existence, not to mention it's vital for conveying a ton of info to the player because it's a complex game in gameplay.

I meant the hypothetical shadow HUD we were just previously discussing - wouldn't be necessary if you could just look down at your own body and see the shadow on it. I agree yeah of course there is plenty of HUD we'd want to keep, and would even make sense ingame as the infolink augmentation.

What do you think of the idea CyperP? Would you like to interact with DX1 via VR / Oculus Rift?

CyberP
5th Jan 2014, 21:08
I meant the hypothetical shadow HUD we were just previously discussing - wouldn't be necessary if you could just look down at your own body and see the shadow on it. I agree yeah of course there is plenty of HUD we'd want to keep, and would even make sense ingame as the infolink augmentation.

What do you think of the idea CyperP? Would you like to interact with DX1 via VR / Oculus Rift?

Of course! All the classics with compatibility would be great. as long as it is implemented in the correct ways.

I'd like it with Human Revolution as well though all the third person cuts with ladders, takedowns, certain augs (icarus + typhoon) and cover system substituting lean kinda defeats the point almost.