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IDAFT
25th Oct 2013, 21:54
So guys do you think he will, and do you want him to?

THC 303
25th Oct 2013, 21:59
i really hope so
at the same time, would be kinda cool to play as a new character (maybe a female this time?)

i guess i just put my trust in whatever em think is the best for the series

Ashpolt
25th Oct 2013, 23:27
I think he'll be back - the team at EM are too invested in him as a character to let him get away entirely - but not as the player character. Playing him again would require a contrived "oops, you lost all your augs and equipment" bit at the beginning (which would be the second time, after The Missing Link) and would just generally feel too much like retreading old ground. The Deus Ex universe is too big to be confined to one person's perspective.

sonicsidewinder
25th Oct 2013, 23:36
Adam Jensen should be an Alien.

Rtech
26th Oct 2013, 00:02
Adam will be back but we may not be able to play as him. I think Eidos will explore other characters in the Deus Ex Universe to make money and it may not be contained only to the PC because you have to remember that Square Enix is a public company that answers to shareholders and board of directors. So Square will dictate how the universe expands and on what platform. In addition to this, you will probably see attempts..i.e comic books, novellas, action figures, cartoons, and movies. Shareholders demand profit and that may involve making games for the lowest common denominator. So that means PC might not get the central treatment even though this intellectual property was started on a PC.

Shralla
26th Oct 2013, 00:06
The Deus Ex universe is too big to be confined to one person's perspective.

This.

Cyberhuman
26th Oct 2013, 00:47
Adam Jensen was a great character; I hope we will see him again, but not as a playable character.

A new character with a different backstory; that would be very interesting. Maybe we'll see the first female lead in a Deus Ex game..

Shralla
26th Oct 2013, 00:50
A new character with a different backstory; that would be very interesting. Maybe we'll see the first female lead in a Deus Ex game..

Also this.

CyberP
26th Oct 2013, 02:13
Huh? Alex D was female if you opted for it.



i guess i just put my trust in whatever em think is the best for the series

Last time I looked, that was a mobile game designed to be "as simple as possible" and a outsourced "director's" cut that does very little to actually improve the game and in-game ads and questionable design and....sigh.

Hell raisers they are, and SE is the devil. :nut:

I want to believe in them, but I cannot.

I know I can trust them to make a good game, but not an exceptional one.

Shralla
26th Oct 2013, 03:35
Huh? Alex D was female if you opted for it.

Yeah but the results were barely noticeable. It was classic Bioware syndrome.

THC 303
26th Oct 2013, 11:30
Huh? Alex D was female if you opted for it.



Last time I looked, that was a mobile game designed to be "as simple as possible" and a outsourced "director's" cut that does very little to actually improve the game and in-game ads and questionable design and....sigh.

Hell raisers they are, and SE is the devil. :nut:

I want to believe in them, but I cannot.

I know I can trust them to make a good game, but not an exceptional one.

as you said it yourself, both those projects were outsourced and not EM's doing
if you want to blame someone, then blame SE (i liked de:the fall btw, it was a neat way of getting some new deus ex before the sequel comes out)

CyberP
26th Oct 2013, 12:03
then blame SE

Yes, I do, they are the devil, remember? The personification of evil....of course I am exaggerating and I do not know what goes on behind the scenes, but I know they are responsible for everything consumer-end except game design (and probably that to some extent too :().

Berr
27th Oct 2013, 01:30
I would like to play again as Adam actually, because I feel DXHR was more of an origins story for him, while DX1 told a pretty complete story for JC Denton.

I agree they would have to do an augs reset for gameplay reasons, but its a pretty small concession to story. They could even say some of his augs were damaged at the end of DXHR and give him some new ones so you get to unlock new tricks.

However, I also really like the idea of new characters. Maybe we can have a game with two protagonists?

Eh, whatever happens I'm sure I'll love it.

Count D
27th Oct 2013, 03:38
It would've been a miracle for him to come back after he killed himself along with the entire station.
Yeah, he dies in one of the endings, remember? And the one that looks like it's going to be canon at that. It was pretty clear he won't be returning for the sequels.

CyberP
27th Oct 2013, 03:43
Dunno, Invisible War did it. :p

sadmachine
27th Oct 2013, 14:12
Only if Malik comes back too.

Berr
28th Oct 2013, 00:19
Only if Malik comes back too.

It could actually make sense pretty easily. I assume if Adam came back he would now be working for the secret resistance group from TML. I think they would have a use for pilot like Malik, and she seemed like a character with the right priorities to join a resistance too.

@Count D: what leads you to think the self-destruct option is the canon option?

Count D
28th Oct 2013, 00:59
It could actually make sense pretty easily. I assume if Adam came back he would now be working for the secret resistance group from TML. I think they would have a use for pilot like Malik, and she seemed like a character with the right priorities to join a resistance too.

@Count D: what leads you to think the self-destruct option is the canon option?

Ever heard of the great Neuropozine poisoning of 2027 in DX1? Or the great terrorist attack? Or anything about people learning of the Illuminati? Neither have I.

CyberP
28th Oct 2013, 01:13
Ever heard of the great Neuropozine poisoning of 2027 in DX1? Or the great terrorist attack? Or anything about people learning of the Illuminati? Neither have I.

I was under the impression that the lore of DX wasn't given much a crap about since it's contradicted numerous times in DX:HR.

Dammit I'm still being negative, damn you forum, only way to successfully repent is to leave.

Smoke43
28th Oct 2013, 21:43
For me Deus Ex Universe sound like mmo game rather than Single player

Rtech
28th Oct 2013, 22:07
An MMO Deus Ex game? Sounds like more money for SE.

Shralla
28th Oct 2013, 22:11
It's not an MMO. Jesus Christ. Deus Ex Universe isn't even the name of a game.

What a complete marketing fail.

Rtech
28th Oct 2013, 22:18
It's not an MMO. Jesus Christ. Deus Ex Universe isn't even the name of a game.

What a complete marketing fail.

I know it is a not a name for the game but for the "universe", kind of like the Mass Effect "universe". Why can't a next generation Deus Ex Game for PC and consoles be an MMO? You get consistent cash flow per/month, why would SE say no? That does not mean it will be an MMO, but it is definitely a possibility.

Smoke43
28th Oct 2013, 22:31
In second thoughts i think now that its not even a game i prefer a sequel to DE HR than this Deus Ex Universe that maybe will come out like in 5 years. Eidos takes like 5 years to make a game

Berr
29th Oct 2013, 00:50
@Smoke43 I don't think you understand what this 'Deus Ex Universe' is.

When they made DXHR, they could only plan for a single game (as that's all they knew for sure they were making) so they made a self-contained story. It was so self-contained that they had to work pretty hard to come up with a story for even a DLC for it.

If they keep making self-contained stories, the quality of the stories will go downhill pretty fast. Luckily, SE has indicated an ongoing commitment to making a lot of different DX games in the coming years, so Deus Ex Universe is merely the name of Eidos Montreal 'thinking big' and planning out a story canvas big enough for all these games.

And that will include a full-size PC/console game, essentially the sequel to DXHR that you want. Also they have revealed that they've been working on this game since finishing TML, so I expect it will probably be out in about 18 months.

So, cheer up, it's a good time to be a DXHR fan! :D

Ashpolt
29th Oct 2013, 03:09
I know it is a not a name for the game but for the "universe", kind of like the Mass Effect "universe". Why can't a next generation Deus Ex Game for PC and consoles be an MMO? You get consistent cash flow per/month, why would SE say no? That does not mean it will be an MMO, but it is definitely a possibility.

Firstly, it can't be an MMO because they've already said it's not going to be an MMO.

Secondly, MMOs are pretty much a dying thing now anyway. Yes, they have been huge...but that was some years ago. When was the last time you heard of an MMO doing anything more than just about hanging in there? Monetising an MMO nowadays is tricky to say the least - they're certainly not "consistent cash flow" generators any more. Subscription fees are a thing of the past, and a free to play game with microtransactions would massively alienate the Deus Ex fanbase.

...That in itself wouldn't stop them, but again, they've already said it's not an MMO. So no, it's not an MMO.

Darthassin
29th Oct 2013, 07:33
I just want to say that I personaly wouldn't like female lead in Deus Ex. I am a man and I feel discomfort playing as woman.

I think bringing Jensen back for next Deus Ex is very good idea, that being said I have nothing against new protagonist as long as it is a straight man.

And he needs to have black coat and sunglasess. :D

Cyberhuman
29th Oct 2013, 10:50
I just want to say that I personaly wouldn't like female lead in Deus Ex. I am a man and I feel discomfort playing as woman.

I think bringing Jensen back for next Deus Ex is very good idea, that being said I have nothing against new protagonist as long as it is a straight man.

And he needs to have black coat and sunglasess. :D

Why would you be uncomfortable with a female lead? Just curious..



....if they would like to destroy another franchise with a new MMO, then.... well, I won't be a part of it!

Ashpolt is right; they have said nothing about an MMO. Thank the maker! I have nightmares about MMO monsters.

Tverdyj
29th Oct 2013, 13:49
It would've been a miracle for him to come back after he killed himself along with the entire station.
Yeah, he dies in one of the endings, remember? And the one that looks like it's going to be canon at that. It was pretty clear he won't be returning for the sequels.

given this was the ending I chose, I would like this.

JC and Alex Dentons were clones and blank slates for player to imprint his personality on. Adam came to us as a prefab character with a ton of baggage, and the story (poorest aspect of HR, imho) tended to highlight that. I had no compulsions against having Adam blow up Pangea and die in the process.

Deus Ex stands for choice-driven gameplay. It's never been about the characters.


I know it is a not a name for the game but for the "universe", kind of like the Mass Effect "universe". Why can't a next generation Deus Ex Game for PC and consoles be an MMO? You get consistent cash flow per/month, why would SE say no? That does not mean it will be an MMO, but it is definitely a possibility.

because most new MMOs that try subscription model are huge commercial busts and have to go F2P within months, praying that microtransaction money's enough to afford them to keep the servers running?

given the recent management shakeups, all SQueeenix needs right now is to announce it's making another WoW-killer MMO to ensure the company's quick insolvency.

Count D
29th Oct 2013, 15:49
JC and Alex Dentons were clones and blank slates for player to imprint his personality on. Adam came to us as a prefab character with a ton of baggage, and the story (poorest aspect of HR, imho) tended to highlight that. I had no compulsions against having Adam blow up Pangea and die in the process.I don't agree with JC being a blank slate. He was stoic and sounded very dry, but he had a personality. He was a bit skeptic, but still a philosopher and an idealist. And bits and pieces of his personality are formed by player's actions, but far from blank. I guess Alex had a personality too... but as I said, he was boring as hell.

EricaLeeV
29th Oct 2013, 17:24
I don't agree with JC being a blank slate. He was stoic and sounded very dry, but he had a personality. He was a bit skeptic, but still a philosopher and an idealist. And bits and pieces of his personality are formed by player's actions, but far from blank. I guess Alex had a personality too... but as I said, he was boring as hell.

I definitely agree. JC had quite a bit of personality and a past to boot. One that you could read about pretty well if you looked hard enough.

There were many times where JC spoke to other NPCs explaining opinions with no player input. For instance he always recognized Carver with the upmost respect, cared for his brother, back-sassed Manderly, joked around with Jaime, and was indeed, very willing to put in his idealistic opinion when pushed to (and sometimes for no reasons at all). Not only that he tended to say please and thank you a lot. Very polite for a protagonist (especially considering the ones we have lately).

Alex did have something to him/her but it wasn't that interesting. The gender pick thing was nice in thought but not so much in execution. I appreciate how they didn't make her completely different from her male counterpart.


I believe DXHR took the right direction with having Adam as such a solid character. It was one of the components that drove me to be interested in the game, I wanted to learn more about Adam. The problem I had with him though is that his character could be SO different between actual gameplay and cutscenes.

Shralla
29th Oct 2013, 20:27
And the fact that he was chasing Megan all around the world and I didn't want him to care about her at all.

EricaLeeV
29th Oct 2013, 20:35
And the fact that he was chasing Megan all around the world and I didn't want him to care about her at all.

Indeedy.

Shralla
29th Oct 2013, 21:34
I just want to say that I personaly wouldn't like female lead in Deus Ex. I am a man and I feel discomfort playing as woman.

I think bringing Jensen back for next Deus Ex is very good idea, that being said I have nothing against new protagonist as long as it is a straight man.

Privilege alert. Wow, there really are people like this.

This is exactly why the next game SHOULD have a female protagonist. You feel uncomfortable? GOOD. That means you're growing.

CyberP
29th Oct 2013, 21:55
Darthassassin you are now blacklisted and your opinions have lost a degree of credibility. Female, male, gay, straight, it doesn't matter as long as it's tasteful, not offensive....no sex with male (or female) hookers in DX please, though I wouldn't actually care if there was male hookers/gigolos, as long as they have reason to exist and are well written, and not overdone either. Not that that would happen mind you, Square Enix wouldn't allow that as it would be against popular opinion (though the controversy may do them some good).

Either way am fine with the DX:HR standard: All the female hookers about in both Detroit and Hengsha, trust those French to deliver some eye candy ;). It was tasteful and suitable tough, there was no genitals on display, no sex scenes, and suitable to portray the troubles of each area, augmented sex workers, underprivileged class etc.
So, I am fine with that.

If all of those were male...I would be perhaps a little creeped out as it's against the norm and my sexuality, and I would be overwhelmed by how many there are, but as long as the characters were well written I would have dealt with it.
Also, if the pressure got to me a little virtual slaughter wouldn't hurt anyone :lol:

Berr
30th Oct 2013, 00:36
Whoa guys give Darthassin a break, he is just stating his personal preference.

I'm perfectly happy to play a game with a female/gay lead, but I don't think it's fair to be judgemental of someone for preferring to play a character that matches their gender and sexual preference.

I am well aware of the push for better inclusiveness of women and gays etc in gaming and support it. But the problem is not straight male gamers who want to play as an avatar who matches themselves.

Ironically, one of the main arguments of how to make games inclusive of female and/or gay gamers is to have more games featuring female and/or gay avatars, for those female and/or gay gamers who have the exact same desire as Darthassin - to play with an avatar that matches their gender and sexual preference.

All that said, Darthassin I'd encourage you to play games with main characters different to yourself, its one small way in which games can expand your worldview and help you see issues from other people's perspective in real life.

CyberP
30th Oct 2013, 00:45
Ironically, one of the main arguments of how to make games inclusive of female and/or gay gamers is to have more games featuring female and/or gay avatars, for those female and/or gay gamers who have the exact same desire as Darthassin - to play with an avatar that matches their gender and sexual preference.


Then they should play Mass Effect, where there is a focus on such trivial things rather than good gameplay, level design etc.

HERESY
30th Oct 2013, 01:45
Then they should play Mass Effect, where there is a focus on such trivial things rather than good gameplay, level design etc.

The ME series has outsold the entire DX series. So yeah, they focused on what you deem as "trivial" instead of what you call good gameplay, level design, etc, yet they're still here, making more games and more money. They didn't collapse like Spector and his team, they're still here, making more games and more money. So has the trivial paid off? I'd say so. In fact, they would say so, after all they're doing what? Making more games and more money.

More games + more money > everything you're saying.

Give us the choice to select our gender, sexual preference, etc.

As for Jensen, he will probably return just probably won't be the lead character, but I wouldn't mind playing with him again.

CyberP
30th Oct 2013, 02:28
The ME series has outsold the entire DX series. So yeah, they focused on what you deem as "trivial" instead of what you call good gameplay, level design, etc, yet they're still here, making more games and more money. They didn't collapse like Spector and his team, they're still here, making more games and more money. So has the trivial paid off? I'd say so. In fact, they would say so, after all they're doing what? Making more games and more money.

More games + more money > everything you're saying.

Give us the choice to select our gender, sexual preference, etc.

As for Jensen, he will probably return just probably won't be the lead character, but I wouldn't mind playing with him again.

Oh HERESY.

That lacklustre game called Deus Ex: Invisible War gave you the option to choose gender, and be a "chamber boy", like Mass Effect, though they kept it tasteful, it never actually comes to it.
Your one-track mind fails you. I am glad you don't work in the industry, coming out with BS like that.
Mind you, DX1 gave you the option to choose race, though that was a simple texture change, didn't change voice actor and writing because they had their priorities right.

Offering the player the choice to choose gender, sexual preferences etc requires extra voice acting & writing most notably. A waste of money and a waste of the writers + audio team's time, as I see it. It also requires extra coding and artwork too.

Also, Spector departed Ion Storm to "pursue personal interests outside the company" (found his own company), and Ion Storm itself went under due to "several famous missteps, late releases, and internal political turmoil". Ion Storm wasn't just one team either, for the record.

One of those famous missteps would be Diakatana, a well known flop, which had nothing to do with Spector's team, that was John Romero (of Doom/id fame) and his team's doing.

Stop spouting BS, going back to your old ways.

One more thing, comparing sales figures of games from 2000-2003 to those of modern times, that's completely irrational. So many factors.

sadmachine
30th Oct 2013, 13:45
Then they should play Mass Effect, where there is a focus on such trivial things rather than good gameplay, level design etc.

I think the Mass Effect series has at times had good gameplay, level design, etc. I'd also say the same for the delightfully inclusive Saints Row series. This is all pretty subjective, of course--as is what one finds trivial. Me, I think inclusiveness is worth investing resources in.

At the same time, though, a game with a straight white dude protagonist isn't a crime against equality. DXHR certainly wasn't. You give me a game that treats women and minorities like human beings, I'll take it. Progress is progress.

CyberP
30th Oct 2013, 16:52
I think the Mass Effect series has at times had good gameplay, level design, etc.

Level design: A flat plane filled with waist high walls and invisible walls. Bioware's level design has always been terrible, don't confuse art direction with level design.

Gameplay: No dedicated jumping, No dedicated crouch. I can accept one or the other, both is pushing it. These are vital tools for combat, freedom and level design interaction.

Great level design works with great gameplay mechanics resulting in a synergy (Deus Ex 1 is a great example of this), a standard I expect from most games. This **** wouldn't fly in a first person game, but because it's 3rd person nobody says a word? I've played plenty of 3rd person games before this generation, and they had good gameplay and level design.

Mass effect, if it had good level design then gameplay would be much more fun, as long as they too added the basic movement controls that should be standard in any 3D game. If they did this, then It would be one of my favourite games of all time, because everything else is pretty solid.

...Oh, they may need to do something about the planet mining too, music is nice but mining those planets gets boring pretty fast, though I like the other mini-game of sorts: fuel rationing & interplanetary travel, though it was basic, never really a challenge, it didn't overstay it's welcome. The mining sure did. Mako sections in ME1? Even worse.

Apart from the mini games, abysmal level design and that basic actions are non-existant, it's got a hell of a lot going for it. It's a shame, because it could really be something, but instead I just see everyone lusting over a space opera with a nice amount of player choice in the story. You're all blind to it's true potential.

HERESY
30th Oct 2013, 18:31
Oh HERESY.

That lacklustre game called Deus Ex: Invisible War gave you the option to choose gender, and be a "chamber boy", like Mass Effect, though they kept it tasteful, it never actually comes to it.

Who cares if IW gave you that option? Are you implying that the option is the reason why the game wasn't received?


Your one-track mind fails you. I am glad you don't work in the industry, coming out with BS like that.

I don't have a one track mind I get straight to the crux of the matter. And the company I'm a part of plans to enter the gaming arena by the middle of 2014 if everything works out correctly. See you at the top.


Mind you, DX1 gave you the option to choose race, though that was a simple texture change, didn't change voice actor and writing because they had their priorities right.

Refer to my statement at the top of this post.


Offering the player the choice to choose gender, sexual preferences etc requires extra voice acting & writing most notably. A waste of money and a waste of the writers + audio team's time, as I see it. It also requires extra coding and artwork too.

The extra voice acting and writing are actually minimal. You have to have ADR sessions anyway, there are a ton of leftover takes at the end of the day and it isn't as time consuming as you would fool yourself into believing. The extra coding and art work are already in place anyway. What do you think? That they just come up with one hair style and stick with it? No, they swap things in and out and things that aren't used typically go into the asset pile.


Also, Spector departed Ion Storm to "pursue personal interests outside the company" (found his own company), and Ion Storm itself went under due to "several famous missteps, late releases, and internal political turmoil". Ion Storm wasn't just one team either, for the record.

Doesn't matter. They're HISTORY. Spector is flopping all over the place so where are HIS priorities?


One of those famous missteps would be Diakatana, a well known flop, which had nothing to do with Spector's team, that was John Romero (of Doom/id fame) and his team's doing.

Doesn't matter. They're HISTORY.


Stop spouting BS, going back to your old ways.

I'm telling the truth. You want to downplay ME for allowing the player to have a choice yet you forget that this choice was a big selling point and the reason why the majority of people purchased the games. And if choice and character creation weren't such a big selling point, or something fans really wanted, there would have been no discussions, that reached major media outlets, about the games sex scenes, the way it handles sexual preference and the ending (choices.)


One more thing, comparing sales figures of games from 2000-2003 to those of modern times, that's completely irrational. So many factors.

No, it's completely logical. What you're failing to grasp is that ME has sold over 10 million copies in a bad economic climate. It sold over 10 million copies at a time business models were changing (ftp, microtransactions, dlc.) Over 10 million copies in a climate of many successful AAA titles/franchises (Gears, Halo, Uncharted, COD, GTA, etc.) Over 10 million copies in a time of emergent markets (mobile, streaming game services). Over 10 million copies in a time of heavy piracy (torrents.) And over 10 million copies in a time where indie devs are making really good games and selling well (Bastion, Journey, etc.)

Bioware gets the nod. Bioware gets the money. Bioware gets the games.

CyberP
30th Oct 2013, 19:21
Who cares if IW gave you that option? Are you implying that the option is the reason why the game wasn't received?

You're the one who implied ME was well received because it offered these features and therefore DX should imitate it.

:rolleyes:

I won't waste my time responding to the rest of the nonsense.

HERESY
30th Oct 2013, 19:28
You're the one who implied ME was well received because it offered these features and therefore DX should imitate it.

:rolleyes:

I won't waste my time responding to the rest of the nonsense.

It was well received because it offered those features. You want to downplay ME for allowing the player to have a choice yet you forget that this choice was a big selling point and the reason why the majority of people purchased the games. And if choice and character creation weren't such a big selling point, or something fans really wanted, there would have been no discussions, that reached major media outlets, about the games sex scenes, the way it handles sexual preference and the ending (choices.) This isn't opinion but documented fact.

And no, I never implied that because ME was well received that DX should imitate it. I said what I said to stick a knife in your claim/opinion that such things were trivial. 10 million units sold. Deal with it.

So why should DX include such things? That's an easy one to address. You want people to craft their own experiences, to share their own experiences, to be involved in a community where these things are encouraged. You want to create a living world that blurs the lines of reality. No it does not have to be an MMO, and I'm not talking about an MMO, but anyone who understands content creation and various business modesl will understand what I'm talking about.

CyberP
30th Oct 2013, 19:36
So why should DX include such things? That's an easy one to address. You want people to craft their own experiences, to share their own experiences, to be involved in a community where these things are encouraged. You want to create a living world that blurs the lines of reality. No it does not have to be an MMO, and I'm not talking about an MMO, but anyone who understands content creation and various business modesl will understand what I'm talking about.

Since this is all one-track mind short sighted business nonsense again, then sure, DX should have those things as it does appeal to the ignorant who buys games based off of being able to play a specific gender. DX should have those features in the ****ty spin-offs ONLY.

DX4? The real deal? No.

HERESY
30th Oct 2013, 19:45
Since this is all one-track mind short sighted business nonsense again, then sure, DX should have those things as it does appeal to the ignorant who buys games based off of being able to play a specific gender. DX should have those features in the ****ty spin-offs ONLY.

DX4? The real deal? No.

It isn't one-track mind short sighted business nonsense. It's business 101. The numbers don't lie. I know ED is dear to you but the numbers don't lie. They never have and they never will.

The things you call "ignorant" and trivial appeal to people for many reasons. One such reason is because these people are UNDERSERVED or MISREPRESENTED when it comes to their portrayal in games. Now, of course you would know this if you were open or understood how your bias prevents you from being open, or actually had an elementary grasp of good business fundamentals but that is neither here nor there. The point is, things are going in a different direction and they should be. You want to create a vast community based on different experiences and due to the world of DX, you can do so without everyone looking the same, experiencing the same story, etc.

Your way = outdated, stale and rigid.

My way = the way the industry is actually going.

DX should NOT be restricted to the confines of a PC. I know you "elitist" want this to happen but it never will. The ultimate goal of a game company is to make a profit and this franchise has to LEAVE the PC in order to make a profit. Leave the PC, branch out and hit other markets. There is enough lore and backstory that will allow each person to be a unique person within the DX universe and again, I'm NOT talking about an MMO. I'm talking about building communities based around the game. Which side do you REALLY want to be on? How does transhumanism REALLY impact you and your life? If at all? These things can create such an impact to the point to where they allow you to step outside of the game and actually integrate with your daily life. This is something ED and the franchise as a whole, so far, has NOT been able to accomplish.

CyberP
30th Oct 2013, 20:43
The things you call "ignorant" and trivial appeal to people for many reasons. One such reason is because these people are UNDERSERVED or MISREPRESENTED when it comes to their portrayal in games.

Umm, it's video games, not politics. Are people going to hate on Mario and demand you be able to choose his race and nationality because he portrays Italians as murderous, high-jumping plumbers?

It's ******* trivial.


You want to create a vast community based on different experiences and due to the world of DX, you can do so without everyone looking the same, experiencing the same story, etc.

Priorities. There is only so much a team can do. This is low priority and therefore shouldn't be considered.

Looking the same? Do I look the same as you? Do I give a **** what character you are controlling? This isn't an MMO.


My way = the way the industry is actually going

That's right, hell.


DX should NOT be restricted to the confines of a PC. I know you "elitist" want this to happen but it never will.

I am happy to see it on PC and consoles.

Until another platform can support a DX game in all it's glory, I'd rather it stick to these "confines", but it's too late and I never had a say in the matter anyway.
Books, Movies, Mobile games, These cannot offer what DX on console or PC can.
If they support DX4 and DX4 is the real deal, then...I can live it with it, however.

We had this discussion before.


The ultimate goal of a game company is to make a profit and this franchise has to LEAVE the PC in order to make a profit. Leave the PC, branch out and hit other markets.

PC is still profitable, clearly.


There is enough lore and backstory that will allow each person to be a unique person within the DX universe and again, I'm NOT talking about an MMO.

Only because that market is dying, otherwise you'd be screaming for an MMO, such is your mentality.


I'm talking about building communities based around the game. Which side do you REALLY want to be on? How does transhumanism REALLY impact you and your life? If at all? These things can create such an impact to the point to where they allow you to step outside of the game and actually integrate with your daily life. This is something ED and the franchise as a whole, so far, has NOT been able to accomplish.

What are you talking about here? Social features? Integrate how? Because we are currently in one of many "ED" communities right now, I slaved over a mod, no pay, it was part of my life almost every day for 3/4 of a year, people are still making mods right now, 13 years on, pretty big impact of you ask me.

If you are speaking of gimmicky social features then another big NO.

Go and alienate another community, we already have to deal with Square Enix & Co thinking in such ways.

HERESY
30th Oct 2013, 21:51
Umm, it's video games, not politics. Are people going to hate on Mario and demand you be able to choose his race and nationality because he portrays Italians as murderous, high-jumping plumbers?

It's ******* trivial.

No, actually it has a lot to do with politics and the way people are portrayed in various forms of media and entertainment. Mario was never meant to be taken serious, however, some of these games, that often spout on and off about morality this, choice that, etc DO want to be taken serious. It's not trivial when you have a billion dollar industry that has experienced a change when it comes to demographics and content consumption.

If we had it your way all characters would be white males, around the age of 28-36 with heavy eurocentric values/ideologies. I'm sorry, but we no longer need that to be the norm in gaming. We need more games that represent the vast differences in society. Different religions, different sexual preferences, cultures, backgrounds, etc.


Priorities. There is only so much a team can do. This is low priority and therefore shouldn't be considered.

In your opinion it is a low priority. In the opinion of others it's a high one. Deal with it.


Looking the same? Do I look the same as you? Do I give a **** what character you are controlling? This isn't an MMO.

This has nothing to do with being an MMO as I've said that several times so far. Is ME a MMO? No.


That's right, hell.

If you say so. The numbers don't lie. When I say things you have companies parroting it months later. I've provided many examples in the classic posts, just dig em up. Your way is rigid and doesn't do anything for anyone. I'm sorry but the only people who have your mentality are those who head companies that are on the verge of dying or have already crumbled. They aren't forward thinking, they aren't looking for new ways to build communities, etc.

Put these people out to pasture (figuratively) and let the new guys who have an understanding of technology, society and the convergence of media and mediums have a crack at it.


I am happy to see it on PC and consoles.

I doubt it.


Until another platform can support a DX game in all it's glory, I'd rather it stick to these "confines", but it's too late and I never had a say in the matter anyway.

You shouldn't have a say in the matter. This isn't about a "game" but a FRANCHISE. You CAN'T keep a franchise like this confined to one format. Doing so is NOT a good business move and doesn't allow you to increase your revenue streams.


Books, Movies, Mobile games, These cannot offer what DX on console or PC can.

They aren't supposed to offer what the PC can, genius. They're supposed to offer the BEST experience in their formats/platforms and create instances of IMPACT. IMPACT = an instance where it (whatever is being consumed) is OUTSIDE of the franchise, spills into your life and inspires YOU to do something. Does ED do this? Hardly. Did ME do it? Absolutely which is why it was talked about, for various reasons, outside of the gaming industry.


If they support DX4 and DX4 is the real deal, then...I can live it with it, however.We had this discussion before.

See above.


PC is still profitable, clearly.

The PC platform does NOT place them on footing where they're able to maximize profits. They have to branch out or else the numbers will dwindle over time. If you have a product to be sold, and you aren't keeping up with the demands of the consumers, trends, the directions things are headed, etc, then you're wasting your time. People will move on from DX if they don't branch out or reinvent the IP in some way shape or form. The arena is filled with franchises and you can't compete with these heavy hitters if you only have one or two offerings. It's like a football team running the same formation and plays or a boxer that doesn't know how to adapt. You're going to get your clock cleaned.

You can say what you want about Halo but the numbers don't lie. Does Halo have one game offering? No, you have Halo Wars (doesn't matter if you think it was good or not) and the twin stick shooter that was released not too long ago for tablets (will be released on xbone and 360 in december.) You have Spartan Ops episodic content. You have Halo novels that flesh out the story and shed more light. You have Halo adaptions in this format, that format, etc.

Why is this important? More and more companies are developing different offerings. Bioware did it with ME. MS did it with Halo. CDPR is doing it with The Witcher. The creators of TWD were able to pull it off and the list goes on and on. You have to have different offerings or else you won't be able to keep up.


Only because that market is dying, otherwise you'd be screaming for an MMO, such is your mentality.

NO. It does NOT have to be an MMO nothing I'm saying relates to MMO and has everything to do with specific business models that you don't fully understand.


What are you talking about here? Social features? Integrate how? Because we are currently in one of many "ED" communities right now, I slaved over a mod, no pay, it was part of my life almost every day for 3/4 of a year, people are still making mods right now, 13 years on, pretty big impact of you ask me.

That has NOTHING to do with what I'm talking about and this forum isn't an ED community. This is a DX:HR community. ED = The relic and when I say DX I'm referring to the entire franchise.

You didn't do what you did because of the storyline. The fourth wall was not blurred. You did what you did because you felt is was something worthy to be modded. How does that play into the DX storyline? Did the Omar tell you to make the mod and provide you with the tools to do so? What I'm talking about is the blurring of lines between the fictional world and the one we live in. You want a good example of this? Star Wars. There are people who actually believe in "the force" and adopt the ways of the Jedi. I'm not talking about cosplay, I'm talking about people who have accepted aspects of this fictional world as reality.


If you are speaking of gimmicky social features then another big NO.

I'm not speaking of gimmicky social features. I'm speaking of two specific business models that are used in the content creation industry. They have NOTHING to do with gimmicks. Gimmicks are here today and gone tomorrow and investors don't invest in gimmicks. People invest in business models, growth potential, new ways of doing things that maximize profits, etc.


Go and alienate another community, we already have to deal with Square Enix & Co thinking in such ways.

No one is being alienated. It's clear as day now that you don't understand how the word "community" is used in a business sense. So, for the third post in a row (which shows your selective reading habits btw) I'm not talking about an MMO. I'm talking about building communities based around the game. Which side do you REALLY want to be on? How does transhumanism REALLY impact you and your life? If at all? These things can create such an impact to the point to where they allow you to step outside of the game and actually integrate with your daily life. This is something ED and the franchise as a whole, so far, has NOT been able to accomplish. Read that again and then go back to what I said about blurring the lines between the two worlds.

CyberP
30th Oct 2013, 22:48
No, actually it has a lot to do with politics and the way people are portrayed in various forms of media and entertainment. Mario was never meant to be taken serious, however, some of these games, that often spout on and off about morality this, choice that, etc DO want to be taken serious. It's not trivial when you have a billion dollar industry that has experienced a change when it comes to demographics and content consumption.

True, and I am not actually against the idea of players having choice in character creation. I don't like it, think it causes issues (Bioware or Bethesda syndrome) but not all games should be the same, my main point is a DX game shouldn't have it as DX should have different priorities.


If we had it your way all characters would be white males, around the age of 28-36 with heavy eurocentric values/ideologies. I'm sorry, but we no longer need that to be the norm in gaming. We need more games that represent the vast differences in society. Different religions, different sexual preferences, cultures, backgrounds, etc.

I already said I don't give a **** what gender or sexual preference I play as. I pretty much skip that part of character creation as it is purely cosmetic and has no real impact. My recent playthroughs of Fallout: New Vegas and Dark Souls I chose a female character because you are forced to pick something so why not.

An interesting thing about Fallout: New Vegas is that they expanded on everything except for the aesthetics character creation. A copy n paste job from Fallout 3 because they had their priorities right.

Fallout Results on the consumer end: Aesthetically, none. I play entirely first person as it's the superior perspective (and the devs know this, the third person is tacked on) and turn off the cinematic kill cam. Still see my character in vats when I use it but I really don't give a **** how my PC looks, it's meant to be me anyway (female grunting counters that though, but meh, I chose female so i live with it). Writing: Voice actor and text on screen said ma'am occasionally. No effort put in here because the devs had their priorities right, the game already holds the record for the most lines of dialogue in a game. Gameplay: None, except female grunting when taking damage and melee attacking.

The negative results? The Courier is not a well-defined character. But then again YOU are meant to be the Courier so it doesn't really matter here. Creating a character to represent myself would be futile as I should only be able to see myself in a mirror, of which there are none.
And of course, the time wasted in development, though it was all a copy n paste job from Fallout 3 thankfully. Well, just building on top of it and not changing anything. So they wasted no time except for varying Ma'am and Sir in text and spoken dialogue, or whatever. Good job Obsidian.

Dark souls results: Grunts when taking damage (sound is very off-putting, doesn't sound female). Aesthetically, none. Character is wearing armour. I could take off the armour and turn human form if you want to see my character's looks clearer but....why bother? Just to acknowledge the artist's extra unnecessary work?

What has greater impact is a single, solid, iconic character being written and defined that doesn't waste time and dilute the story.

Besides, the main characters usually are the mascots of a game when they are well defined. Mario, Sonic, Adam Jensen, Lara Croft, Samus etc.

The day character creation can be implemented hassle free is the day I will accept it. it's only hassle free in Fallout New vegas because the devs took another team's work and re-used it, yet it still forced them to write and act out those extra "ma'ams or Sirs", but that is minor.


If you say so. The numbers don't lie. When I say things you have companies parroting it months later. I've provided many examples in the classic posts, just dig em up. Your way is rigid and doesn't do anything for anyone. I'm sorry but the only people who have your mentality are those who head companies that are on the verge of dying or have already crumbled. They aren't forward thinking, they aren't looking for new ways to build communities, etc.


Here are your numbers: http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/30/5045830/steam-65-million-active-accounts-6-million-concurrent-users


You shouldn't have a say in the matter. This isn't about a "game" but a FRANCHISE. You CAN'T keep a franchise like this confined to one format. Doing so is NOT a good business move and doesn't allow you to increase your revenue streams.


Like I said, I can deal with all the milking to MAXIMIZE PROFITS as long as DX4 is good and an exception to this ugly way of thinking.


Why is this important? More and more companies are developing different offerings. Bioware did it with ME. MS did it with Halo. CDPR is doing it with The Witcher. The creators of TWD were able to pull it off and the list goes on and on. You have to have different offerings or else you won't be able to keep up.

You're right, but Square Enix already do all that stuff with Final Fantasy (R.I.P), Batman etc. I fear the DX name will lose it's artistic value from getting whored out. Well, it already has.


That has NOTHING to do with what I'm talking about and this forum isn't an ED community. This is a DX:HR community. ED = The relic and when I say DX I'm referring to the entire franchise.

Relic's shrine ;)


You didn't do what you did because of the storyline. The fourth wall was not blurred. You did what you did because you felt is was something worthy to be modded. How does that play into the DX storyline? Did the Omar tell you to make the mod and provide you with the tools to do so? What I'm talking about is the blurring of lines between the fictional world and the one we live in. You want a good example of this? Star Wars. There are people who actually believe in "the force" and adopt the ways of the Jedi. I'm not talking about cosplay, I'm talking about people who have accepted aspects of this fictional world as reality.


So you want the next Deus Ex to brainwash people. Great.

A great thing about Deus Ex is how it relates to real life, like it's a prediction attempt. Same for DX:HR (less believable for 2027 but the transhumanism stuff is all good). DX doesn't distort reality, it attempts to predict it. Some stuff it got wrong, others are already a reality. Though a lot of it is clearly ideas inspired from old sci-fi books and concepts, not to discredit DX's story as it's absolutely brilliant, probably the best of video games.

Another thing is Deus Ex holds great educational value for a video game, and this is another thing it should stick to doing.

Deus Ex already is meta on so many levels.


No one is being alienated. It's clear as day now that you don't understand how the word "community" is used in a business sense. So, for the third post in a row (which shows your selective reading habits btw) I'm not talking about an MMO.

I mentioned an MMO once.

Don't drag me into your rabbit hole of illogical fallacies.


I'm talking about building communities based around the game. Which side do you REALLY want to be on? How does transhumanism REALLY impact you and your life? If at all?

Hasn't this subject already been discussed ad nauseum? Yes, it has. It was all DX:HR banged on about for a start, it showed how it could possibly effect our lives, a prediction.


These things can create such an impact to the point to where they allow you to step outside of the game and actually integrate with your daily life. This is something ED and the franchise as a whole, so far, has NOT been able to accomplish. Read that again and then go back to what I said about blurring the lines between the two worlds.

You don't even know "ED"....

Shralla
31st Oct 2013, 00:25
Nice repeat of every thread from the last six months.

AlexOfSpades
31st Oct 2013, 01:33
Football Manager sold better than Deus Ex, therefore Deus Ex needs to have a Greasel Arena Manager game. If you disagree, you're stuck in the past.

I do say that i wouldnt complain if i could choose between a male and female protagonist for the game as long as it was well implemented though. Not because Mass Effect did it and we should rip it off, but because options are always nice. However, i think that the huge amount of work that would generate (double voice acting needs, different conversation topics, separate pre-rendered cutscenes, etc) probably would make it not worth it - developers have only so much time and money to develop a game, and sometimes we have to sacrifice certain things in exchange for others. The time and money they'd spend making alternate gender/appearance options would result in sacrificing something else - be it campaign length or bug fixing or whatever. So we have to sit down and think what truly makes Deus Ex what it is and focus on that first.

How many times have i posted this? I should make a personal Copypasta thread.

HERESY
31st Oct 2013, 02:36
True, and I am not actually against the idea of players having choice in character creation. I don't like it, think it causes issues (Bioware or Bethesda syndrome) but not all games should be the same, my main point is a DX game shouldn't have it as DX should have different priorities.

Listen, DX can have it and still maintain its integrity. It is simply a matter of controlling an avatar that you created or feel is a best representative of you and how you interpret the game world. This isn't a matter of being a higher priority or lower priority but simply something designed to add to the gameplay. With a game that draws so heavily on real life, you would think something so simple as character creation wouldn't be a problem and, truth is, it isn't unless you have mocap stuff involved and even then things can still be changed.


I already said I don't give a **** what gender or sexual preference I play as. I pretty much skip that part of character creation as it is purely cosmetic and has no real impact. My recent playthroughs of Fallout: New Vegas and Dark Souls I chose a female character because you are forced to pick something so why not.

And this is part of the problem. Your gender and preferences should impact how NPC and others in the game perceive you and there should be certain things that are afforded to you in one instance but not afforded in another.


An interesting thing about Fallout: New Vegas is that they expanded on everything except for the aesthetics character creation. A copy n paste job from Fallout 3 because they had their priorities right.

But they still had it. It doesn't matter if it was a copy and paste from the previous game, you still had the option of having it.


Fallout Results on the consumer end: Aesthetically, none. I play entirely first person as it's the superior perspective (and the devs know this, the third person is tacked on) and turn off the cinematic kill cam.

That's great that you play in first person and I'm glad you're stating your opinion that FP is superior. Good job.


Still see my character in vats...Character is wearing armour. I could take off the armour and turn human form if you want to see my character's looks clearer but....why bother? Just to acknowledge the artist's extra unnecessary work?

Again, ME allows you to create your own character, decked out in whatever armor you like. It has nothing to do with unnecessary work but everything to do with allowing the user to create an avatar that reflects them or what they want to contribute to the game world.


What has greater impact is a single, solid, iconic character being written and defined that doesn't waste time and dilute the story.

There are plenty of games where you can play as both male and female and the story is not diluted. Again, ME offers you the choice of playing as such and there is no dilution.


Besides, the main characters usually are the mascots of a game when they are well defined. Mario, Sonic, Adam Jensen, Lara Croft, Samus etc.

Take AJ off the list as Commander Shepard is probably more recognizable. You go ask the writers at the NY Times or the WSJ if they have ever heard of the guy and you'll most likely hear crickets. Ask if they have heard of Shepard and they'll probably say yes. Why? Because they actually wrote about ME. Now that is NOT to say that AJ can't be a "mascot" but the game does not center around him but the lore and story of that gameworld. Mario centers around Mario, pipes and turtles, Tomb Raider on the exploits of Lara and Metroid relies on Samus. You take these characters OUT and replace them with another character and the entire experience will probably be different as those worlds were built around those specific characters. AJ, however, was made for DX, DX wasn't made for him so there is a difference.


The day character creation can be implemented hassle free is the day I will accept it. it's only hassle free in Fallout New vegas because the devs took another team's work and re-used it, yet it still forced them to write and act out those extra "ma'ams or Sirs", but that is minor.

This doesn't make sense. No game, upon release, is going to be perfect. No game is "hassle free" so you might as well stop playing games right now. Those extra ma'am's, sirs, etc don't take a lot of time. Now granted, in a dialogue heavy game there is going to be more work but it isn't as time consuming as you think.


Here are your numbers: http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/30/5045830/steam-65-million-active-accounts-6-million-concurrent-users

That's great. The Steam Client was released in 2003 and has 65 million active accounts and 6 million concurrent users. Meanwhile, the current gen version of xbox live was released in 2005 and has close to 50 million. There are 90 million registered psn accounts. Both consoles have sold around 70 million each and the wii has sold over 100 million units. What exactly is your purpose for telling me about Steam? I said my way is the way industry is going, you reply with "to hell", I then tell you the numbers don't lie and you tell me about Steam. And?


Like I said, I can deal with all the milking to MAXIMIZE PROFITS as long as DX4 is good and an exception to this ugly way of thinking.

It's not an ugly way of thinking it's business 101.


You're right, but Square Enix already do all that stuff with Final Fantasy (R.I.P), Batman etc. I fear the DX name will lose it's artistic value from getting whored out. Well, it already has.

SE has gone against the wishes of consumers. You have millions of people asking for a remake of FF7. You didn't have millions of people asking for a DX reboot but the point is, in some instances, they clearly aren't listening. Instead we get 99 FF 13's and HD remakes of other FF games while getting wacky excuse after excuse as to why we will not get a 7 remake even though it's the most requested.

The market is too competitive right now. You CAN'T have an IP like DX and expect for the IP to stay afloat if there are no proper ancillary goods, tie ins, co-branding and offerings in different platforms. This isn't minecraft, this is a story based IP and guess what the number 2 thing is on the list of game companies? Keeping the game in the tray. You CAN'T keep the game in the tray if you aren't offering anything else to go along with it. Why do you think Borderlands 2 was successful and still makes money despite Halo 4 and COD outselling it even though they play in the same market? It offered compelling content, new characters, new weapons, keys, skins, etc. Why do you think CDPR is developing a comic? Why do you think TWD is so successful financially? Offerings. It all boils down to offerings.

We're in a different climate now and if you don't have anything valuable to keep the gamer interested, and keep that game in the tray, it's gonna hit the used market. So you can talk about great game design til the cows come the **** home, but this is business 101 and how things are. If YOU, cyberP, do NOT understand this, it's best that YOU don't enter the gaming industry because you'll be hiiiiiiiiiiiiiighly disappointed with the outcome.


Relic's shrine ;)

Knock over the shrine.


So you want the next Deus Ex to brainwash people. Great.

No, I want to see more IP's that blur the line.


A great thing about Deus Ex is how it relates to real life, like it's a prediction attempt. Same for DX:HR (less believable for 2027 but the transhumanism stuff is all good). DX doesn't distort reality, it attempts to predict it. Some stuff it got wrong, others are already a reality. Though a lot of it is clearly ideas inspired from old sci-fi books and concepts, not to discredit DX's story as it's absolutely brilliant, probably the best of video games.

Yet they didn't capitalize on how it relates to real life, predictions, etc. You don't see the attempts to predict reality in the marketing schemes, in advertisement, etc. If you did, you'd see ARG's, commercials and artwork full of symbolism, fan interaction, people telling them the Omar asked them to join the forum, people speaking out against transhumanism and referring to the game and other things conducive to staying alive in this climate.


Another thing is Deus Ex holds great educational value for a video game, and this is another thing it should stick to doing.

What great educational value?


Deus Ex already is meta on so many levels.

No it isn't. If it were the numbers and profits would reflect it. If it were SE and EM wouldn't be trying to figure out new things to create an instance of growth and long term stability.


I mentioned an MMO once.

And I said this isn't about an MMO at least two times before you mentioned it once.


Don't drag me into your rabbit hole of illogical fallacies.

No such thing on my end. Just read what has been posted and respond to it.


Hasn't this subject already been discussed ad nauseum? Yes, it has. It was all DX:HR banged on about for a start, it showed how it could possibly effect our lives, a prediction.

That was one example of many. However, they aren't blurring the lines. There are other things within the story that may actually impact you right now. Population booms, the bilderberg group, etc. The thing is, SE and EM aren't capitalizing on this in a creative way that blurs the line between the real world and the game world.


You don't even know "ED"....

because such things are trivial and not worth my time.

CyberP
31st Oct 2013, 04:36
Listen, DX can have it and still maintain its integrity. It is simply a matter of controlling an avatar that you created or feel is a best representative of you and how you interpret the game world. This isn't a matter of being a higher priority or lower priority but simply something designed to add to the gameplay.

It adds nothing to the gameplay. I'll assume you mean it adds to the experience, then yeah, I can accept that (even though it adds nothing for me), but as I said, it also detracts from it too.


With a game that draws so heavily on real life, you would think something so simple as character creation wouldn't be a problem and, truth is, it isn't unless you have mocap stuff involved and even then things can still be changed.

Simple? Well you need to code the UI for it, have cutscenes represent the player etc. but the biggest waste is all those art assets.
And that's only the looks.
Voice acting, writing etc for gender.
Sexual preferences? Depending on what you are wanting to do with it, it can change a lot of things, or nothing at all except a title on the status screen.


nd this is part of the problem. Your gender and preferences should impact how NPC and others in the game perceive you and there should be certain things that are afforded to you in one instance but not afforded in another.

Yes, but to the cost of other things more important.


But they still had it. It doesn't matter if it was a copy and paste from the previous game, you still had the option of having it.

Well, there was no point in removing it unless they wanted to define a player character themselves. They didn't, since you choose every action, every line of dialogue, and the game prioritizes first person. You are the Courier and keeping the create character system does actually support that, but the game being first person-centric makes it almost irrelevant.
Either way, it's there, and you can view yourself in third person if you want it. There was no good reason to remove it, it's actually welcome since Obsidian didn't have to implement it themselves. Removing it would be a loss to the game. A trivial one.


That's great that you play in first person and I'm glad you're stating your opinion that FP is superior. Good job.

Good job for not recognizing that for this type of game first person is objectively superior. There are many reasons I can give, but the most solid, indisputable one is precise interaction. You cannot interact too well, especially with small objects, with a giant character on the screen and the camera is set a few meters back. This is why third person never has great interaction, but a floating box you pick up automatically once you enter it's trigger radius (Metal gear Solid for example).


Again, ME allows you to create your own character, decked out in whatever armor you like. It has nothing to do with unnecessary work but everything to do with allowing the user to create an avatar that reflects them or what they want to contribute to the game world.

Indeed it is. Suitable for role playing space romance simulators. Not suitable for games that prioritize the good stuff.

Deus Ex is meant to be first person-centric remember, ideally even conversations are all in first person. DX1 couldn't do this because it would have just looked absolutely terrible and had the opposite effect; took you out of the game.
Anyway, yes, First Person, where you cannot see yourself except in reflections, hence definitely no need for character creation.

First Person conversations were executed spectacularly in DX:HR, so good that it apparently took 6 months each conversation, and therefore a significant drain of resources. This is why I wanted to see a streamlined work process for them (or just have them as in Fallout:NV, they are convincing enough).


There are plenty of games where you can play as both male and female and the story is not diluted. Again, ME offers you the choice of playing as such and there is no dilution.


Think about it, if Bioware didn't write male shep, all his individual encounters, sex scenes, voice acting, looks and what have you, and just focused on fem shep, how good would fem sheps story be? Mind blowing? Or maybe if they actually put a bit of effort in the gameplay and level design instead, that would have been appreciated.
To add: Not only all the extra work from choosing gender as discussed, but they did this three times AND connected the story across each game that adapts to players actions in the past games. Hurts my head a little thinking of all the branches. All that choice in the story, but gameplay and level design suffers. I suppose it strives to be different at least....well, it's just like all the other Bioware games in design really.


Take AJ off the list as Commander Shepard is probably more recognizable. You go ask the writers at the NY Times or the WSJ if they have ever heard of the guy and you'll most likely hear crickets. Ask if they have heard of Shepard and they'll probably say yes. Why? Because they actually wrote about ME. Now that is NOT to say that AJ can't be a "mascot" but the game does not center around him but the lore and story of that gameworld.

Yes, Shepard does do a good job of being recognizable despite being a gender bender, or maybe it's just because a lot of people has played the game. Adam Jensen has a much more recognizable and defined character and has only starred in one game.
Either way I don't want to discuss "who is the most popular" and "it's all in the numbers" with you. I believe in success via superior quality, you believe in success via targeting the lowest common denominator and jumping on the band wagon. Eidos Montreal/SE believed in both and paid the price.



This doesn't make sense. No game, upon release, is going to be perfect. No game is "hassle free" so you might as well stop playing games right now.

Huh? game? We was discussing the implementation of a system that has many downsides.
I'm simply arguing not to implement such systems and instead implement another with little to no downsides, a localized health system for example.
But wait, the perceived downside EM has of that is that is too deep for modern gamers, or that you have to scavenge for medpacks, but I already pointed out how flawed both those arguments are.


Those extra ma'am's, sirs, etc don't take a lot of time. Now granted, in a dialogue heavy game there is going to be more work but it isn't as time consuming as you think.

That only applies to Fallout: New Vegas though, where they adapted all the assets of Fallout 3.

it's a waste if you are implementing such vast creation systems from scratch, especially for a first person-centric game.


That's great. The Steam Client was released in 2003 and has 65 million active accounts and 6 million concurrent users. Meanwhile, the current gen version of xbox live was released in 2005 and has close to 50 million. There are 90 million registered psn accounts. Both consoles have sold around 70 million each and the wii has sold over 100 million units. What exactly is your purpose for telling me about Steam? I said my way is the way industry is going, you reply with "to hell", I then tell you the numbers don't lie and you tell me about Steam. And?

You said DX should leave PC behind. I was just showing you PC was booming, and that's on steam alone. Nothing more.


It's not an ugly way of thinking it's business 101.

"You don't get rich by being nice to people"
-various


SE has gone against the wishes of consumers. You have millions of people asking for a remake of FF7. You didn't have millions of people asking for a DX reboot but the point is, in some instances, they clearly aren't listening.

I am glad in this instance. FF7 is an exceptional game and holds up exceptionally well, a new engine would do very little for it, it would even ruin it in a way. That game is what it is, with it's own special 90's charm. It would lose that charm to some degree.
All those fanboys are completely blind, they do not know what they want.
As a fan of the series, I'd rather have a new one that is actually good.


Instead we get 99 FF 13's and HD remakes of other FF games while getting wacky excuse after excuse as to why we will not get a 7 remake even though it's the most requested.

Why would anyone want Square Enix/one of it's subsidiaries to do it anyway? They are not SquareSoft, the original developers. Those guys are no more, and the way Square Enix operate I have 0 faith in them doing it justice.


The market is too competitive right now. You CAN'T have an IP like DX and expect for the IP to stay afloat if there are no proper ancillary goods, tie ins, co-branding and offerings in different platforms. This isn't minecraft, this is a story based IP and guess what the number 2 thing is on the list of game companies? Keeping the game in the tray. You CAN'T keep the game in the tray if you aren't offering anything else to go along with it. Why do you think Borderlands 2 was successful and still makes money despite Halo 4 and COD outselling it even though they play in the same market? It offered compelling content, new characters, new weapons, keys, skins, etc. Why do you think CDPR is developing a comic? Why do you think TWD is so successful financially? Offerings. It all boils down to offerings.

I'd like to believe that isn't true, whore a new IP to support DX if you have to, but it's too late now anyway.


We're in a different climate now and if you don't have anything valuable to keep the gamer interested, and keep that game in the tray, it's gonna hit the used market. So you can talk about great game design til the cows come the **** home, but this is business 101 and how things are. If YOU, cyberP, do NOT understand this, it's best that YOU don't enter the gaming industry because you'll be hiiiiiiiiiiiiiighly disappointed with the outcome.

Indie. I need to pull my head out of this forum and get to work tbh.


Knock over the shrine.

Barbarian.


No, I want to see more IP's that blur the line.

There are many, that's one thing the Immersive Sim strived to do.


Yet they didn't capitalize on how it relates to real life, predictions, etc. You don't see the attempts to predict reality in the marketing schemes, in advertisement, etc. If you did, you'd see ARG's, commercials and artwork full of symbolism, fan interaction, people telling them the Omar asked them to join the forum, people speaking out against transhumanism and referring to the game and other things conducive to staying alive in this climate.

It's always capitalization with you. Blame Eidos, they would have been in charge of things like that anyway. However, the industry just didn't have big budget marketing campaigns and widespread internet back then. Regardless DX sold pretty well.


What great educational value?

Play the game and find out. "great" educational value was an overstatement, but for a video game you will likely learn a lot whilst having a hell of a lot of fun.


No it isn't. If it were the numbers and profits would reflect it. If it were SE and EM wouldn't be trying to figure out new things to create an instance of growth and long term stability.

Quality != Popularity.

By your logic "Gangnam Style" and "baby" are the pinnacle of quality that the music industry have put out all these years.


And I said this isn't about an MMO at least two times before you mentioned it once.

I know, and I wanted to play off of that I guess.


No such thing on my end. Just read what has been posted and respond to it.

Yeah, perhaps I made a mistake, these wall o' texts are bad practice, bit draining, and accomplish nothing. I'm not sure what good comes of it, if anything.


That was one example of many. However, they aren't blurring the lines. There are other things within the story that may actually impact you right now. Population booms, the bilderberg group, etc. The thing is, SE and EM aren't capitalizing on this in a creative way that blurs the line between the real world and the game world.

They did around release. Good work from the marketing teams. urgh, I hate to praise marketing teams....but..it is deserved.


because such things are trivial and not worth my time.

It's you who is missing out the most. It doesn't look like much, but you have to experience it for yourself in it's entirety, with no distractions, to understand.
And you need the music ON also, Mr. I cannot appreciate video game music.

To me turning the music off is like turning the damn story off for some games. I adore certain game soundtracks.


Football Manager sold better than Deus Ex, therefore Deus Ex needs to have a Greasel Arena Manager game. If you disagree, you're stuck in the past.

:lol:

Ashpolt
31st Oct 2013, 11:37
Football Manager sold better than Deus Ex, therefore Deus Ex needs to have a Greasel Arena Manager game. If you disagree, you're stuck in the past.

And Tetris outsold both of them, so therefore Deus Ex should come bundled with the original Game Boy! If you disagree, you're stuck in the past. But also strangely not. You're Schrödinger's Gamer.

Spyhopping
31st Oct 2013, 12:13
So, character choice creation. Forgive me if I'm unintentionally repeating things said above, but I thought I'd say this because it's one of those things about DX games that I actually have a pretty strong opinion about. It's not something I feel like I need in a DX game, particularly the male/female choice. It's a lot of work, and given the usual DX script size, it would probably have to be pulled off in an awkward gender neutral sort of way in order to work around the two options. That's not worth it to me, it'd just take something away from the game.

I don't think that AJ will come back as a protagonist. I expressed a hope that Anna Kelso would be a playable character a while back, but she didn't turn out to be the character I visualised in the book when I played the Fall (which I still haven't been able to finish for various silly reasons) so that's not something I'm thinking of any more.

Still, I'd like to see a female protagonist, but pleeeeease don't make her all sexy. Sure, give her a pretty face but no high heels, (how are you supposed to fight conspiracys in high heels??) or cleavage exposures. Faith from Mirror's Edge was a great example of a female lead in a game.



How many times have i posted this? I should make a personal Copypasta thread.

Mmm, pasta.

HERESY
31st Oct 2013, 21:03
It adds nothing to the gameplay. I'll assume you mean it adds to the experience, then yeah, I can accept that (even though it adds nothing for me), but as I said, it also detracts from it too.

No, it can add to the gameplay or experience. Again, I cite ME as an example as your armor will grant you perks and bonuses. If your job is to create a world and immerse me in that world, it needs to be believable. I'm sorry, but running around like a fool, in the same attire just doesn't cut it any longer. We're no longer in the days where a a fire sword with +9 flame and bahamut armor look the same as a wooden sword and chain armor. If I have new armors, new weapons, etc my character needs to reflect it.


Simple?...Depending on what you are wanting to do with it, it can change a lot of things, or nothing at all except a title on the status screen.

Yes, simple. You're already coding for the UI anyway, a lot of cutscenes do represent the player (and weapons changes) and the assets if they weren't made from the ground up, are assets that can be purchased for pennies. Voice acting, writing, etc is not hard to do. Assuming there is the same amount of dialogue all you're doing is doubling it up. You then reduce the amount of ADR sessions and instead of comping from 20 takes, move on after 10. So no, it isn't as difficult as you think.


Yes, but to the cost of other things more important.

Once again this is where you don't make sense. Not once have I said it needs to be at the cost of this or that. I haven't said to take that out and replace it with this. YOU are the one saying if they do it they are doing it at the cost of something that YOU feel is more important but there is no evidence of this and no one has said anything needs to be removed. It simply boils down to YOU not wanting it because YOU have an "idea" in your head as to what DX should be and, if it doesn't fit within your myopic view, it's wrong.


Well, there was no point in removing it...but the game being first person-centric makes it almost irrelevant.

It isn't almost irrelevant. It's the psychology of knowing that you're contributing to the game by not only playing it but by creating the avatar to your spec.


Either way, it's there, and you can view yourself in third person if you want it. There was no good reason to remove it, it's actually welcome since Obsidian didn't have to implement it themselves. Removing it would be a loss to the game. A trivial one.

Was the game built around your story? Your experience? Crafting everything to how you wanted it? Regardless of what you say this is what ME offered, what it excelled at and why a lot of fans were so upset. When the character creation import settings didn't work, the people were enraged because they felt their experience was ruined. Does it take away from the overall story if Shep was bald or has hair? No, but then again, it is the persons story, what/who they feel Shep is and they spent so much time with him/her that they want to see that person and not another Shep. It's all about the psychology behind it, keeping the player engrossed and making an emotional connection between gamer and avatar.


Good job for not recognizing that for this type of game first person is objectively superior...This is why third person never has great interaction, but a floating box you pick up automatically once you enter it's trigger radius (Metal gear Solid for example).

Already refuted in several classic posts. In those classic posts I even linked to industry insiders 9developers and writers) that demolish the above.


Indeed it is. Suitable for role playing space romance simulators. Not suitable for games that prioritize the good stuff.

10 million units sold across 3 games and 1 generation compared to maybe 5 million sold across 4 games and 2 generations. So who has the good stuff again? What is the good stuff?


Deus Ex is meant to be first person-centric remember...Anyway, yes, First Person, where you cannot see yourself except in reflections, hence definitely no need for character creation.

I've already addressed this.


First Person conversations were executed spectacularly in DX:HR, so good that it apparently took 6 months each conversation, and therefore a significant drain of resources. This is why I wanted to see a streamlined work process for them (or just have them as in Fallout:NV, they are convincing enough).

The FP conversations were handled well and I've never complained about them. However, in regards to length, you have to look at what tech was used. Mocap certainly would not have taken so long but if they had to animate from the ground up, and didn't have assets on hand, it's going to take long. But anyway, what does your statement have to do with what you were replying to?


Think about it, if Bioware didn't write male shep, all his individual encounters, sex scenes, voice acting, looks and what have you, and just focused on fem shep, how good would fem sheps story be? Mind blowing?

That depends on your take of the story. I played through 4 times, that I can remember, and I found my fem shep playthroughs more enjoyable. Why? Because it was the fact that she was a female and not a male, yet the entire weight of the universe was placed on her shoulders. Responsibilities, especially ones relating to actual combat, are usually reserved for me but here it is a woman is taking charge and trying to get things done and gender can actually work against her (not wanting to follow the orders of a woman.)


Or maybe if they actually put a bit of effort in the gameplay and level design instead, that would have been appreciated.

10 millions sold vs around 5 million. I'd say overall one was more appreciated over the other.


To add: Not only all the extra work from choosing gender as discussed,...I suppose it strives to be different at least....well, it's just like all the other Bioware games in design really.

They did it and it worked. If not the WSJ would not have covered it. NY times would not have covered it and named it the game of the year (the first one) and the list goes on and on. You're like a guy who plays a music instrument that keeps talking about how only songs with diminished notes are good, or how 7th and 9th's are the epitome of musical genius, yet some guy across the street is getting tons of royalty payments from ascap and bmi simply because he made a loop and sold it to the right person. The end results, not "level design" are what people care about. Do you see anyone marketing "WE HAVE THE BEST LEVEL DESIGN" in their ads? Hell no. Why not? Because many people actually don't care about that. It's the end result that matters. You think a guy listening to his favorite rock band gives two ****s about a convultion reverb on a maple kit? Hell no. In fact, the mix can be totally skewed but if the song resonates with him, that is all that matters. End results.


Yes, Shepard does do a good job of being recognizable despite being a gender bender, or maybe it's just because a lot of people has played the game. Adam Jensen has a much more recognizable and defined character and has only starred in one game.

This is a matter of opinion but I don't think the NY Times would agree with you. I mean we know for a fact they gave the award to ME, I think they only mentioned AJ in passing. As for being defined, well, truthfully AJ doesn't even fit into the scope of Aristotle's Coercive System which is THE system when it comes to storytelling and character building. Shep? Shep does and it's further expounded on by the fact that choice actually has consequences.


Either way I don't want to discuss "who is the most popular" and "it's all in the numbers" with you. I believe in success via superior quality, you believe in success via targeting the lowest common denominator and jumping on the band wagon. Eidos Montreal/SE believed in both and paid the price.

We don't have to go by the numbers. We can simply go by the system that is used by writers of screenplays, books, plays, etc and compare and contrast. I'm not ****ting on the work EM did but AJ is not a "more defined" character and is lacking in several key areas.


Huh? game? We was discussing the implementation of a system that has many downsides.

The only "downside" is if it is poorly executed. If you don't have enough faith in EM to pull it off say so but don't go pulling arguments out of thin air and passing them off as if they're real issues. As stated before, there is no game that is "hassle" free. If it were, we wouldn't have patches or people complaining about this or that.


I'm simply arguing not to implement such systems and instead implement another with little to no downsides, a localized health system for example.

There is no need to do one at the expense of the other. No one is saying that character creation needs to take precedent over localized health, level design, etc. That's simply YOU making things up as you go along because YOU don't want them.


But wait, the perceived downside EM has of that is that is too deep for modern gamers, or that you have to scavenge for medpacks, but I already pointed out how flawed both those arguments are.

Why are you pointing them out to me when I'm not arguing against medpacks, etc?


That only applies to Fallout: New Vegas though, where they adapted all the assets of Fallout 3. it's a waste if you are implementing such vast creation systems from scratch, especially for a first person-centric game.

The problem is they aren't doing it from scratch. They already have the assets there.


You said DX should leave PC behind. I was just showing you PC was booming, and that's on steam alone. Nothing more.

The problem with this is that I never said that. I said to leave the confines of the pc and branch out. I said, the PC platform does NOT place them on footing where they're able to maximize profits. None of this implies that they should "leave PC behind." It simply means that restricting the IP to the pc is NOT the best thing for the franchise as the sales numbers show the console release outsold it by a large margin. The PC is still a viable revenue stream so there is no need to cut that market out. However, to the pc or to use a pc business model with this IP is flawed. It's time for DX to spread its wings and branch out.


"You don't get rich by being nice to people"-various

At the end of the day you have to be able to look yourself in the mirror and walk with integrity. I value these things more than riches, but I also understand that when it's time for business it's time for business.


I am glad in this instance...All those fanboys are completely blind, they do not know what they want. As a fan of the series, I'd rather have a new one that is actually good.

Now if I had said something similar about ED, which I have and still stand by it, I'd get tons of people telling me how I'm wrong. Would I like to see Cloud again? Yes, and so would many others, but the fact is SE is not even listening to fans when it comes to this. It's excuse after excuse, failed game after game. If SE wants to get more money, IMHO, it would be best to do a new game based on FF7 (a new HD version, a remake or entirely new game based on that world) and they'll see similar profits to Take Two/Rockstar. Over 10 million copies sold and the game still sells. The fans are there, they can do it from a numbers standpoint but do they have the right team? Probably not.


Why would anyone want Square Enix/one of it's subsidiaries to do it anyway? They are not SquareSoft, the original developers. Those guys are no more, and the way Square Enix operate I have 0 faith in them doing it justice.

See the last sentence above. Also, this goes back to the classic posts where I constantly tell you guys it's all about the team and the synergy between the people involved. Even Smith recently talked about this and said, "We had bad team chemistry."


I'd like to believe that isn't true, whore a new IP to support DX if you have to, but it's too late now anyway.

It's not whoring. It's business. Disney can do it. The NFL can do it. McDonalds can do it. Lamborghini can do it. Why can't SE?


Indie. I need to pull my head out of this forum and get to work tbh.

Then hop on it!!!!


Barbarian.

HERETIC.


There are many, that's one thing the Immersive Sim strived to do.

There is no such thing.


It's always capitalization with you. Blame Eidos, they would have been in charge of things like that anyway. However, the industry just didn't have big budget marketing campaigns and widespread internet back then. Regardless DX sold pretty well.

No, it isn't always capitalization with me. It's business with me. There are times when you can execute properly, have great content, be innovative and still not pull the numbers you're supposed to. Okami. Everything was there but the game didn't resonate with the market and that could be attributed to the timing of the release (and some cultural issues.) The point is, however, is that you have to practice risk mitigation and think business even when you're creating entertainment. Yes, you may have a great idea but will it resonate with the people? Does it tap into their fabric of being and place them in a situation where they question their intrinsic and extrinsic values? This is what ED failed to do but the potential is there because the content and story is based on something that is already a staple of our society.


Play the game and find out. "great" educational value was an overstatement, but for a video game you will likely learn a lot whilst having a hell of a lot of fun.

There is nothing there for me (but I will play it.)


Quality != Popularity. By your logic "Gangnam Style" and "baby" are the pinnacle of quality that the music industry have put out all these years.

Incorrect as the two things you listed don't represent growth and long term stability. You can't build a business model after them. The music is here today and gone the next. However, if these things are cultural phenomena that stay with us over time, then they are something to look at and learn more from. Like I said before in a classic post about COD, to me it lacks quality, but to the millions who made it a billion dollar franchise, it offers the quality they seek. One mans junk is another mans treasure.


I know, and I wanted to play off of that I guess.

Now, because I have a bit of respect for you I can sweep it under the rug. Others however? They take it and run with it. I mean look at the comments from those congregating at my gates about tetris and that football manager game. I never implied that because ME had it that DX should have it, yet the subjects read what you said, took it out of context and here we are.


Yeah, perhaps I made a mistake, these wall o' texts are bad practice, bit draining, and accomplish nothing. I'm not sure what good comes of it, if anything.

A lot comes from it. Just read between the lines or take what is being said and apply it to business. I'd be a fool and a liar to say that some of the stuff I've read here didn't force me to look at things in a different way, do things a different way or consider it for business.


They did around release. Good work from the marketing teams. urgh, I hate to praise marketing teams....but..it is deserved.

They didn't do it the right way.


It's you who is missing out the most. It doesn't look like much, but you have to experience it for yourself in it's entirety, with no distractions, to understand. And you need the music ON also, Mr. I cannot appreciate video game music.

At this point, really it isn't even about looks. It's about building a new pc (as I want one specifically for gaming) and time because I'm backlogged.


To me turning the music off is like turning the damn story off for some games. I adore certain game soundtracks.

It does nothing for me, bro.

Berr
31st Oct 2013, 21:36
And Tetris outsold both of them, so therefore Deus Ex should come bundled with the original Game Boy!

This explains the inventory management ;)

CyberP
31st Oct 2013, 22:59
I'm gonna need some community support on this. A cookie at least, before I take on this wall o' text?

Sigh. I don't know what I am doing here... I should be involved with making a game. No offence HERESY. We both know this is counter-productive.

Spyhopping
1st Nov 2013, 00:12
Here, have some halloween based cookies.

http://www.foodland.com/files/imagecache/530x600/halloween-cookies.jpg

Leave no survivors.

CyberP
1st Nov 2013, 02:51
:mad2:

I spent time typing the most "classic" of posts but it got lost to hardware failings!

Ironic and infuriating.

No more wall o' texts from me, time to get $hit done.

HERESY
1st Nov 2013, 04:30
:mad2:

I spent time typing the most "classic" of posts but it got lost to hardware failings!

Ironic and infuriating.

No more wall o' texts from me, time to get $hit done.

LMAO!

Remember this, no matter what disagreements we have here, I always want you guys (all the members) to succeed, pursue ambitions and make your dreams a reality.

CyberP
1st Nov 2013, 05:05
LMAO!

Remember this, no matter what disagreements we have here, I always want you guys (all the members) to succeed, pursue ambitions and make your dreams a reality.

That's real nice of you man....you too.

Good luck with whatever it is you are doing game-wise. But remember, targeting demographics etc is fine, but I don't think business end should interfere with game design, at least if the designers know what they are doing anyway, not implementing dog turd ideas that is.

Clockworkraven
17th Nov 2013, 14:43
I don't really see Jensen returning for another game. Returning protagonists haven't been been the trend with DX and nobody wants him to suffer from Metroid-Syndrome. It's tired and annoying. Much as I would like to see more player control over the character, like a character creator, I don't really see that happening in the next game. That said, I always played DX:IW with the female Alex D. And would like to see another female protagonist in the series. It could use the diversity and might help keep the new protagonist from coming across as AJ in a new outfit.

Spades
18th Nov 2013, 01:01
Jensen's probably dead

MicBenSte
19th Nov 2013, 11:02
Well, a nod to whatever you did in DX:HR might be nice - depending on the timeframe the next game will be set in.

Meriatressia
26th Dec 2013, 16:05
There's going to be Deus Ex Universe?

I really, really, hope Adam Jenson is playable! He needs to be in many more games!

I wish they'd make a sequal. It's not like there is'nt space between that and Deus Ex.

Shralla
26th Dec 2013, 20:47
I really, really, hope Adam Jenson is playable! He needs to be in many more games!

If he does, then JC deserves it more. And personally I disagree that any future Deus Ex game needs to have any recurring characters at all, ESPECIALLY playable characters. That's not what Deus Ex is about. Every DX game has had a different protagonist. The next one should be no different.


I wish they'd make a sequal.

Well they are.