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David Holy
3rd Oct 2013, 22:58
Dear Deus EX team, Dear Eidos Montreal,

I am a big fan (since 2000) of the Deus EX Franchise and I was very satisfied with your latest addition to the world of deus ex. But in my humble opinion you could increase the game's quality considerably with some ideas and innovations.

Though these ideas where in my head for a long time I finally decided to actually write down my criticisms and would be proud if you could at least consider them in your upcoming Next-Gen Deus Ex title.

Leveldesign:
============
I loved the amount of detail you delivered, but the world was static. You couldn't interact much with the environment or destroy / shoot stuff. You could change that:

- When grenades detonate they should for example destroy tables and stuff on it. You could generally consider more demolition to the environment you're in. I totally dislike it when I shoot at something obviously not able to withstand shooting, yet nothing happens.
- You should be able to damage doors by shooting at them. A small weapons pierces the door, a shotgun blows parts away and so forth. This would change the dynamic of fights indoors a lot.
- Switch Light On/Off. This is one of the most important features i miss in most games nowadays. It brings so much more tactical depth, if you can simply shoot out the light or turn it off and people react to it (or a shooting muzzle enlightens the room! Fantastic for atmosphere)
- One of the most loved things in Deus Ex 1 were the many secret locations. Remember finding secret chambers? Or even secret characters? In Deus Ex: HR there were only a couple of secret passages, and even less secret rooms. I did not get the feeling I had in deus ex, like 'Wooo... there could be a secret everywhere! Behind the wall?' Just think about the tutorial of Deus Ex 1: Even there you could press a brick in the wall and find a secret meeting with one of the important deus characters. Implement that. PLEASE. I want secrets behind mirrors and behind walls and...
The less curious players do not necessarily need to be able to find these places. Its something Deus Ex gave me: An incredible world I was getting sucked into. (I remember being completely amazed at finding a secret entry beneath the big hand that you could already see during the intro in Deus Ex 1...)
- I loved your vision of the city, but something you should simply NOT do is showing something and then not letting the player be able to reach it! It gives me the feeling of a restricted world and it destroys the immersion completely. Although you did a fantastic job of getting an open world feeling already, stuff like the metro, which was driving above the city, is something I get depressed over. The whole time i thought: Man! I would love to sit in it and see the view from that train!
- I missed variations in the leveldesign. In Deus Ex HR, there were no minilevels like the missilebase, the gas station or the chataeu in france. Please add some more locations so that we have the feeling of really being sucked into a worldwide conspiracy.
- The world simply had not much to offer besides questing like other games today do. I WANTED to 'live' in that world, but there were no small activities you could do that would make you feel like you are part of it. I mean, I could not even sit on my own couch in my own apparment! A DISASTER ;)

Weapondesign und use:
=====================
- I loved the weapons, but I wasnt able to use them most of the time, because I did approach a perfect no-killing game ending. Therefore would it not have been better to be able to change the ammunition to NON DEATHLY? That would be wonderful, I could have the happy trigger feeling of shooting at the guys, with the knowledge that I did not just kill their poor virutal bad guy lives ;) So please: Every weapon should have a stun option. It would make a big game even greater. Imagine the fun, using a rocketlauncher, who simply stuns EVERYTHING around ;)
- I missed also some cool agentgadget stuff and weapons like drones, or even a laptop/notebook gun. In a world full of technical advantages its a bit strange: there are almost no agent gadgets and weapons. (Old fashioned Bond stuff would be a proper idea. ;) For example setting multiple cameras by shooting or placing, you could see around corners on the screen f.e. and that would be VERY COOL. You could see opponents without being seen and stuff like that or getting codes and so on... Perfect Dark is a great example in this department, it had a lot of cool gadgets!

Gamedesign:
===========
- Make running and moving like in mirros edge.
- Switching items and weapons should look like in Alone in the Dark. You actually see how you draw the weapon and user other items.
- Implement more move and stealth options. DX HR was very basic. Compared to the great old Tenchu or even Hitman, the stealth ideas are tied (sometimes not evne that) with ideas from 1998. Almost 15 years later, I would be happy to see some moves and ideas shown in other games (Splinter Cell, you see opponents checking where they expect you to be), maybe even an augmentation for a holographic facechange? Or holographically change into new clothes (would be a counterpart to Hitman, with a SF Approach) Funny ways of dealing with such stuff. Think about Total Recall with Arnold Schwarzenegger.
- I HATE STEALTH GAMES FOR THINKING THAT EVERY GAMER IS STUPID. Why do enemies suddenly forget about me after I got discovered just because I waited a couple of minutes? WHY? WHY not use the being discovered part to implement another feature? HUNTING. MGS 2 showed how hunting can properly be done. If I am discovered, I have to live with the consequences. Sure, its harder, but Dark Souls is also hard. And everyone loves it! Give me the feeling, that every guard can be the most big pain in the ass every felt. To reach everyone you can just implement said feature only in the harder game modes.
- Please add more AI Scripts. The fights are usually pretty good nowadays, bullets fly, glass breaks, bodies bleed and so forth. But why have the stealth mechanics not imporved aswell? If they search for me let them do it properly, so that the result could define a new gameplay breed. Hiding on the run can even be more fun than just trying not to be seen.
- Please add more HITMAN Stuff. Like properly hiding bodies in cupboards or stuff like that, or using the environment more to kill/avoid guards.
- Shooting. A lof of games are doing this wrong. Very, very wrong. If I shoot/hit someone in the arm: I expect that his arm drops or that he looses his weapon. If I shoot someone in the leg, I expect him NOT to run afterwards. Its a matter of strategic possibilites and not of cruelity. The same for Jensen. How much more challenging is a fight when you cant just escape quickly because you're wounded? You have to wait until your regeneration augmentation is able to heal bones and flesh - just imagine the possibilities!
- Graphic enhancement, regarding wounds. It would look so cool having a broken leg, or wound, which is healed and you can see it (Far Cry 3 did an interesting approach with this)
- Add swimming again. I missed it totally. It was one of my favorite moments as I dived in the sea, finding a secret underwaterbase. YES. (Also something else I want: Shoot a window underwater and watermasses are flowing into the room/base)
- Add more consequences. I missed something like the killswitch in Deus EX HR. Or the for me most awesome moment in the whole history of videogames: The scene at the air
plane in Deus Ex 1. That was a magical moment.
- If I crash a wall, I don't automatically intend to kill the person on the other side - but that was happening. Thats bad. I never used this augment because of that.
- If I am opening or using anything. I want to see me doing it, see my hands interacting with whatever I am doing. (Hiding bodies for example, opening ventilations shafts, etc...)

Augmentations:
==============
- Mindcontrol (maybe even with a weapon) use other people to enter doors, scanners or comparable things.
- Bullet Time Battle Plugin: Yes. You know Max Payne. You know Matrix. I wan't that. Nothing of the sort wasn't in human revolution. That sucked!
- To be invisible was cool, but you could also add some kind of camouflage (like in Mgs4) with different risks of being detected and so forth
- Weapon augments. I mean IMPLANTED weapons, like guns ins your arm etc. That would be very cool ;)
- Cloth/Disguise Agumentation. Hitman in Deus Ex.

Detail Ideas:
=============
- Having an invisiblity item (holoprojector) to hide bodies! Very funny if a guard stumbles over it!
- Having a simple world map, traveling from Sarif Industries to every location around the world. If you do it too often, maybe you get in trouble regarding your travel expenses! (Reminds me of the toilet scene in Deus Ex 1)

Major Wishes:
=============
- Vehicles.
- More Open World

Keep up the good work! I am so happy that someone knows the franchise and did such a good job with Human Revolution. Revolutionize the game itself now. Add more quantity and quality. Games are about interactions. Make me want to live in the Deus Ex Universe. Proceed to an yet unreached level of gameplay. It's basically already out there: dozens of good companies showed the elements, now simply unite it and refine it into one artistic masterpiece. Please. MGS, Splinter Cell, Perfect Dark, Tenchu, Hitman and FarCry3 are in my opinion the titles you should look at. See what they did good, take the best parts and make it even better. Show them your respect by using the good ideas they had and make them into something even greater. The industry doesn't need 20 titles who are are doing the same things just a little bit different. We need a game which has it all, a game that is representing a whole genre. Deus Ex could be that game.

And: Deus Ex is one of the few games with a pretty good story, it exceeds most normal boring gamestories.

Please. Dont let us down. A lot of the stuff I mentioned doesn't need even need a big budget (lights on/off). You could even team up with the hitman team to make one amazing stealth AI, and use it for all Square games of the genre. Great synergy! :)

By the way: Square was my favorite company once, but I think if they hadn't bought Eidos they would not be worth mentioning by now.

Go. Eidos Montreal. Go.

Berr
4th Oct 2013, 00:11
Imagine the fun, using a rocketlauncher, who simply stuns EVERYTHING around
not sure if serious or trolling...

nomotog
4th Oct 2013, 00:38
not sure if serious or trolling...

It's not a bad idea. The game could use a heavy duty non lethal option. My idea would be to make a full auto verson of the PEPS.

David Holy
4th Oct 2013, 00:53
Its simply an idea. Sure the rocket mass stun launcher is a bit... strange. My problem: I love the weapons design. I carry it in my inventory, but I do NOT use it. Because its lethal. Using the guns in a non lethal approch by simply changing the ammunition style would be soooooo cool. I could use a battle approach, because i do not kill people.

Berr
4th Oct 2013, 01:01
Its simply an idea. Sure the rocket mass stun launcher is a bit... strange. My problem: I love the weapons design. I carry it in my inventory, but I do NOT use it. Because its lethal. Using the guns in a non lethal approch by simply changing the ammunition style would be soooooo cool. I could use a battle approach, because i do not kill people.

Ok fair enough :) and yeah, I take your general point, a bigger variety of non-lethal weapons would certainly be welcome!

CyberP
4th Oct 2013, 01:07
Its simply an idea. Sure the rocket mass stun launcher is a bit... strange. My problem: I love the weapons design. I carry it in my inventory, but I do NOT use it. Because its lethal. Using the guns in a non lethal approch by simply changing the ammunition style would be soooooo cool. I could use a battle approach, because i do not kill people.

They are virtual entities. Code & art. Killing them has no consequence outside the game world.

Going non-lethal is a challenge as you are limited in the amount of ranged weapons you can use and have to rely on stealth, and this is how it should be for many reasons.

Also, vehicles? Bullet time? Lol.

Some good suggestions in there but others do not belong in Deus Ex.

David Holy
4th Oct 2013, 01:16
They are virtual entities. Code & art. Killing them has no consequence outside the game world.

Going non-lethal is a challenge as you are limited in the amount of ranged weapons you can use and have to rely on stealth, and this is how it should be for many reasons.

Also, vehicles? Bullet time? Lol.

Some good suggestions in there but others do not belong in MY Deus Ex ;)

Thank your for your oppinion. I am only interested in getting a better Deus Ex Experience. The wonderful thing about the game is that you have got various decision, which makes DX for everyone special, so more opportunites are moreways to get more people satisfied, even if you not use it. I do understand the limitation of weapons, but its very sad you cant use most of the implemnt items if you choose only to play one style. Why not choose WHICH non lethal weapon you take? Bullet time and vehicles are only ideas. Bullet time is for a man, who uses a deadly approach a nice kick. Seeing the bullets fly, using your augmentations as a supersoldier to surpass your opponents... Would make a DX better game for the battle guys. Vehicles: For example using a bike like in Headhunter would be cool. Its about a world. If you are in a science fcition setting, why not using vehicles? Like a metro, a motorbike or even a car, and if its even only t move between locations (like in headhunter, which was was very basic, but still fun)

Edit: Sure you are right: They are no real persons, but if i intend to NOT kill that guys because of achievements and stuff like that... therefore i do need weapons, which is very bad. I would wish to use every weapon in a non deathly way. Mabye its childisch: But i want to shoot! Action attention whore incoming :)

A small example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq2ig9ykQrw

WildcatPhoenix
4th Oct 2013, 02:33
Never too early for wishful thinking, I suppose.



Leveldesign:
============
I loved the amount of detail you delivered, but the world was static. You couldn't interact much with the environment or destroy / shoot stuff. You could change that:

- When grenades detonate they should for example destroy tables and stuff on it. You could generally consider more demolition to the environment you're in. I totally dislike it when I shoot at something obviously not able to withstand shooting, yet nothing happens.


Absolutely agree with this. I'm not impressed by a bunch of static clutter. Either make the items interactive (at the very least, physically reactive to explosions) or simply include less items.



- You should be able to damage doors by shooting at them. A small weapons pierces the door, a shotgun blows parts away and so forth. This would change the dynamic of fights indoors a lot.


Right on. Gives more complexity to simple challenges. Ex.: I need to get through a locked door. Do I:
a) Pick the lock (they need to bring back some mechanical locks).
b) Hack the security system and open the door via computer.
c) Find the key.
d) Blow the door off its hinges.
e) Bribe a guard to get the keycode.
etc.



- Switch Light On/Off. This is one of the most important features i miss in most games nowadays. It brings so much more tactical depth, if you can simply shoot out the light or turn it off and people react to it (or a shooting muzzle enlightens the room! Fantastic for atmosphere)


Again, spot on. Also gives you more reason to use vision enhancement augs or carry night-vision goggles. You should be able to cut power lines, destroy power boxes, or hack into the power grid. Guards would be on the alert, but their impaired vision would allow you to sneak around more easily or get the drop on them.



- One of the most loved things in Deus Ex 1 were the many secret locations. Remember finding secret chambers? Or even secret characters? In Deus Ex: HR there were only a couple of secret passages, and even less secret rooms. I did not get the feeling I had in deus ex, like 'Wooo... there could be a secret everywhere! Behind the wall?' Just think about the tutorial of Deus Ex 1: Even there you could press a brick in the wall and find a secret meeting with one of the important deus characters. Implement that. PLEASE. I want secrets behind mirrors and behind walls and...
The less curious players do not necessarily need to be able to find these places. Its something Deus Ex gave me: An incredible world I was getting sucked into. (I remember being completely amazed at finding a secret entry beneath the big hand that you could already see during the intro in Deus Ex 1...)


Yep, the more reason to explore, the better.



- I loved your vision of the city, but something you should simply NOT do is showing something and then not letting the player be able to reach it! It gives me the feeling of a restricted world and it destroys the immersion completely. Although you did a fantastic job of getting an open world feeling already, stuff like the metro, which was driving above the city, is something I get depressed over. The whole time i thought: Man! I would love to sit in it and see the view from that train!


I don't mind things like skyboxes, and part of the task of immersion-building is to simulate a larger world than really exists within the level architecture. It's ok to imply places you, the player, can't reach. Just make it plausible and not some random invisible wall that the character can't jump over or walk through.



- I missed variations in the leveldesign. In Deus Ex HR, there were no minilevels like the missilebase, the gas station or the chataeu in france. Please add some more locations so that we have the feeling of really being sucked into a worldwide conspiracy.


YES! This really seems elementary, but give us more varied locations. The Missing Link was a step in the right direction. Less warehouses and narrow hallways. More variation is always a good thing.



- I loved the weapons, but I wasnt able to use them most of the time, because I did approach a perfect no-killing game ending. Therefore would it not have been better to be able to change the ammunition to NON DEATHLY? That would be wonderful, I could have the happy trigger feeling of shooting at the guys, with the knowledge that I did not just kill their poor virutal bad guy lives ;) So please: Every weapon should have a stun option. It would make a big game even greater. Imagine the fun, using a rocketlauncher, who simply stuns EVERYTHING around ;)


More weapon ammunition types would definitely be welcome (rubber bullets, for example), as would more non-lethal options.



- Implement more move and stealth options. DX HR was very basic. Compared to the great old Tenchu or even Hitman, the stealth ideas are tied (sometimes not evne that) with ideas from 1998. Almost 15 years later, I would be happy to see some moves and ideas shown in other games (Splinter Cell, you see opponents checking where they expect you to be), maybe even an augmentation for a holographic facechange? Or holographically change into new clothes (would be a counterpart to Hitman, with a SF Approach) Funny ways of dealing with such stuff. Think about Total Recall with Arnold Schwarzenegger.


Ehhh, I think you're beginning to stray from Deus Ex here. I certainly don't want to see more Splinter Cell third-person takedown animations, although it would be nice to be able to grab an enemy, put a gun to his head, and force him to type in the keycode or give you information before knocking him unconscious/killing him.



- I HATE STEALTH GAMES FOR THINKING THAT EVERY GAMER IS STUPID. Why do enemies suddenly forget about me after I got discovered just because I waited a couple of minutes? WHY? WHY not use the being discovered part to implement another feature? HUNTING. MGS 2 showed how hunting can properly be done. If I am discovered, I have to live with the consequences. Sure, its harder, but Dark Souls is also hard. And everyone loves it! Give me the feeling, that every guard can be the most big pain in the ass every felt. To reach everyone you can just implement said feature only in the harder game modes.


Yes, very much so. This is one thing the original Deus Ex is extremely guilty of. If you fail to kill an enemy on the first shot, simply duck around the corner into an air vent. Within 30 secs the guard will simply shrug and go, "Huh, must've been my imagination. Not sure where this bullet hole in my face came from...?" It's dumb, and hopefully DX4 will push the envelope on this type of design flaw.



- Please add more AI Scripts. The fights are usually pretty good nowadays, bullets fly, glass breaks, bodies bleed and so forth. But why have the stealth mechanics not imporved aswell? If they search for me let them do it properly, so that the result could define a new gameplay breed. Hiding on the run can even be more fun than just trying not to be seen.


I think you're definitely on the right track here. Imagine a cat-and-mouse style mission, constantly having to move and evade guards and avoid more active security systems, trying to flush you out of the air vents or whatever else you're hiding behind. Basic idiot criminals or low-level goons might not be very effective at searching, but as the game progresses and you face more capable enemies, give them better skills and stronger, more coordinated AI. Have them bring in dogs to sniff you out. Use remote controlled bots to search for the player. The only alternative is to avoid detection altogether, forcing the player to hide bodies (or not create them in the first place) and leave no trace of his presence (has to close doors, leave lights on/off, etc).



- Please add more HITMAN Stuff. Like properly hiding bodies in cupboards or stuff like that, or using the environment more to kill/avoid guards.


Yep, I keep expecting new Deus Ex games to incorporate these kinds of things, and yet...



- Shooting. A lof of games are doing this wrong. Very, very wrong. If I shoot/hit someone in the arm: I expect that his arm drops or that he looses his weapon. If I shoot someone in the leg, I expect him NOT to run afterwards. Its a matter of strategic possibilites and not of cruelity. The same for Jensen. How much more challenging is a fight when you cant just escape quickly because you're wounded? You have to wait until your regeneration augmentation is able to heal bones and flesh - just imagine the possibilities!


Just another reason to build from a regional damage system and not stupid regenerating health.



- Graphic enhancement, regarding wounds. It would look so cool having a broken leg, or wound, which is healed and you can see it (Far Cry 3 did an interesting approach with this)


There's really no need for graphic gore or compound limb fractures or anything like that, but arm wounds affecting your aim, leg wounds affecting your speed, etc would be a very welcome feature.



- Add swimming again. I missed it totally. It was one of my favorite moments as I dived in the sea, finding a secret underwaterbase. YES. (Also something else I want: Shoot a window underwater and watermasses are flowing into the room/base)


Absolutely. Even in the original Deus Ex this was an under-utilized feature. I definitely want this back.



- Add more consequences. I missed something like the killswitch in Deus EX HR. Or the for me most awesome moment in the whole history of videogames: The scene at the air
plane in Deus Ex 1. That was a magical moment.


I really hope EM chooses to "open up" the story this time. Show us more of the world-changing events. Bring back major players like the Illuminati, MJ12, etc. Show us the birth of UNATCO. And for god's sake, give us time to care about the characters we're either saving, killing, or fighting alongside. Don't have us fight a boss who we've just met for the first time, or spend the entire game trying to avenge the "death" of a character we barely spend ten minutes with.



- If I crash a wall, I don't automatically intend to kill the person on the other side - but that was happening. Thats bad. I never used this augment because of that.


The break-through walls aug was a gimmick and should be done away with, IMO. It's just really not all that useful and only works in contextual situations, which encourages scripted game design in a very negative way.



- Mindcontrol (maybe even with a weapon) use other people to enter doors, scanners or comparable things.


Not sure about mind control. I get what you're suggesting, but the body language/biometrics scanning equipment we saw to make conversation battles easier in DXHR is as far as I could logically go in this area.



- Bullet Time Battle Plugin: Yes. You know Max Payne. You know Matrix. I wan't that. Nothing of the sort wasn't in human revolution. That sucked!


Ehhh, again we're straying a bit far from Deus Ex. I suppose I wouldn't hate it, and of course, I wouldn't be forced to install it either.



- Weapon augments. I mean IMPLANTED weapons, like guns ins your arm etc. That would be very cool ;)


GUNTHER MUST HAVE HIS SKUL-GUN! Lol.



- Cloth/Disguise Agumentation. Hitman in Deus Ex.


This just makes too much sense, and I'll be sad if we don't see something of the sort included in DX4. At least give us the ability to steal an enemy uniform and sneak in to a guarded base.




- Vehicles.


No thanks. Other than NPC and world decoration, I don't need on-rails turret gunner missions or driving a tank down the street of a city. Bot control is as far as I'd want to go here.



- More Open World


Deus Ex is not GTA or Skyrim or Red Dead Revolver. Open world hubs and non-linear design is great, but let's remember our roots.

Sorry for the super-long reply!

1nflu3n2
4th Oct 2013, 11:35
Regarding holographic clothes, there are feasible ways of doing this and still be in tune with Deus Ex universe and timeline.

Forget about holograms for now and think about smart clothes with fabric that can change shape, texture, pattern and color; skin implants that can change color, shape (ie: face); synthetic hair that can change color an length; or even a body that can change size.

These would be good physical attributes to create a key character like a future hitman (ie: antagonist).

Triangletooth
4th Oct 2013, 12:31
If by Open-World you mean more levels built as play areas than multi-path places then yeah that's a great idea. DX HR did suffer from a lack of freedom in levels other than the hubs (which were fairly restricted, but the main levels should have been designed similarly without constructed paths through a certain order of rooms)

David Holy
4th Oct 2013, 13:05
@ wildcat: Thanks, for the super huge answer. I see that you are also interested in getting the best possible DX experience.



Just another reason to build from a regional damage system and not stupid regenerating health.

I have no problem, with a regeneration system, as long as i see the wounds healing AND if there is an augmentation for it. So you can use Medikits AND regenerating health. Would be best of two worlds ;)


There's really no need for graphic gore or compound limb fractures or anything like that, but arm wounds affecting your aim, leg wounds affecting your speed, etc would be a very welcome feature.

I am really into graphic gore or compund limb fractures, because its a way to show how weapons work. Dont forget: Deus Ex 1, was VERY bloody. Rocketlauncher on people made a mess. The game is adult rated. No problem to implement some gore elements ;) Its a bit disturbing for me, shooting at people with a rocketlauner and the fall only to the ground, as if they were hit by a huge punch. Also a blood trail is something, which can be used to track you down.


I think you're definitely on the right track here. Imagine a cat-and-mouse style mission, constantly having to move and evade guards and avoid more active security systems, trying to flush you out of the air vents or whatever else you're hiding behind. Basic idiot criminals or low-level goons might not be very effective at searching, but as the game progresses and you face more capable enemies, give them better skills and stronger, more coordinated AI. Have them bring in dogs to sniff you out. Use remote controlled bots to search for the player. The only alternative is to avoid detection altogether, forcing the player to hide bodies (or not create them in the first place) and leave no trace of his presence (has to close doors, leave lights on/off, etc).

You are so right. That would be so awesome. I loved that feature in MGS2! Maybe the implement a cat/mouse cam. you can see, how the opponent is proceeding.


I really hope EM chooses to "open up" the story this time. Show us more of the world-changing events. Bring back major players like the Illuminati, MJ12, etc. Show us the birth of UNATCO. And for god's sake, give us time to care about the characters we're either saving, killing, or fighting alongside. Don't have us fight a boss who we've just met for the first time, or spend the entire game trying to avenge the "death" of a character we barely spend ten minutes with.

WOW! Thats a big Issue. Founding MJ12, Illuminati and everything. I want that back! I miss the Man in Black. Walter Simons, Manderley. It was awesome. I really feared them. Until i realised later, they can be deafeated! I was lurking in a ventilation shaft, the guy was sitting at his desk. Boom. Explosion. I was dead. I thought: MAN, this guys are the aliens of the Deus Ex Franchise. Even if you are killing them, they are deadly. Awesome. I would really love to see some old locations, a unatco headquarter being build, etc, the making of a man in Black ... I see great potiential!


Not sure about mind control. I get what you're suggesting, but the body language/biometrics scanning equipment we saw to make conversation battles easier in DXHR is as far as I could logically go in this area.

It would be cool, to get a cop doing things for you, and he is charged with that ;) For example: Remember the drug mission? Imagine, you control the dealer him, he calls himself the police, tells them he is a drug dealer! Hahaha. Quiet funny. Should be good balanced, though. It would fit also to the core idea of Deus Ex Idea. Power/Technolgy and the power to misuse it!

@ 1nfl3n2:

You are right. Its not about the holostuff. Its about a new way to proceed ingame levels. Its always strange that you cant infiltrate Levels, simply by disguise.

WildcatPhoenix
4th Oct 2013, 14:00
I have no problem, with a regeneration system, as long as i see the wounds healing AND if there is an augmentation for it. So you can use Medikits AND regenerating health. Would be best of two worlds ;)


As an augmentation it's perfectly fine, as long as it doesn't come installed by default. The player should be forced to make tough choices about which systems to install, and he/she should never be able to upgrade every single system in the aug tree.

I'm perfectly fine with things like health regen, radar, objective markers, etc, but make them optional augmentations that must be upgraded to achieve maximum efficiency/functionality.



I am really into graphic gore or compund limb fractures, because its a way to show how weapons work. Dont forget: Deus Ex 1, was VERY bloody. Rocketlauncher on people made a mess. The game is adult rated. No problem to implement some gore elements ;) Its a bit disturbing for me, shooting at people with a rocketlauner and the fall only to the ground, as if they were hit by a huge punch. Also a blood trail is something, which can be used to track you down.


I agree that Deus is a game series for adults, and I'm fine with blood on the ground, splatter from head wounds, etc. People need to see that there are gruesome consequences for their violent actions. Maybe just include a "no-gore" option in the menu for those who are concerned about it.

I'm just saying I don't really see the need for bones sticking out of your limbs or viscera hanging out of bodies you've stabbed.



You are so right. That would be so awesome. I loved that feature in MGS2! Maybe the implement a cat/mouse cam. you can see, how the opponent is proceeding.


They started with an interesting idea in DXHR with the mark-and-tag augmentation (or whatever it was called), but it ended up being completely useless because of persistent on-screen radar and third-person cover cams. This should be fixed in DX4.



WOW! Thats a big Issue. Founding MJ12, Illuminati and everything. I want that back! I miss the Man in Black. Walter Simons, Manderley. It was awesome. I really feared them. Until i realised later, they can be deafeated! I was lurking in a ventilation shaft, the guy was sitting at his desk. Boom. Explosion. I was dead. I thought: MAN, this guys are the aliens of the Deus Ex Franchise. Even if you are killing them, they are deadly. Awesome. I would really love to see some old locations, a unatco headquarter being build, etc, the making of a man in Black ... I see great potiential!


Haha! Just wait, if Eidos gives us mod tools/SDK for DX4, I think you'll find a certain upcoming mod very interesting...

/shameless self-promotion



It would be cool, to get a cop doing things for you, and he is charged with that ;) For example: Remember the drug mission? Imagine, you control the dealer him, he calls himself the police, tells them he is a drug dealer! Hahaha. Quiet funny. Should be good balanced, though. It would fit also to the core idea of Deus Ex Idea. Power/Technolgy and the power to misuse it!


I guess I'm still just annoyed by the final mission of DXHR with the zombies (or "augbies"). I'm having a hard time figuring out just how augmentation technology would allow you to control a non-augmented person's mind. Now, if they were augmented, the ability to "mind-hack" would be a very cyberpunk concept. They already showed something like that with the guy in DXHR who begs you to help him, then is taken over remotely and shoots himself in the head.

JCpies
4th Oct 2013, 14:15
Major Wishes:
=============
- Vehicles.
-Vehicles.
-Vehicles.


Bringing back so many memories. CoDEllite, where art thou? Or perhaps David Holy is CoDEllite, just matured over the years, and finally revealed his identity... Conspiracies. How many years has it been now?

I think the forums are being rejuvenated at last.

David Holy
4th Oct 2013, 14:35
Bringing back so many memories. CoDEllite, where art thou? Or perhaps David Holy is CoDEllite, just matured over the years, and finally revealed his identity... Conspiracies. How many years has it been now?

I think the forums are being rejuvenated at last.

Hahaha. Did some troll was so hard over vehicles? I do not hope, that my suggestions are treated negatively, because of some User i do not know ;) I thought vehicles would be a good addition. It simply has not to be a GTA, but breaking in a Car, streets filled with cars, hiding in a trunk, hiding under a truck, while its driving into a base.... Breaking into a car, to search it for evidence, or to plant a bomb. There are a lot of gamedesign ideas behind vehicles. They are too static in Deus Ex HR.

I dont want a battlefield or GTA, i want to have a feeling of a world i can interact with. Therefore vehicles would be one asset, but if you look at my list, its only on the bottom, the other stuff, like shooting out light, or non deadly weapons and stealth gameplay mechanics are MUCH MORE important to me.

JCpies
4th Oct 2013, 14:41
Those are all good ideas. Though you can probably use do car bombs with mines anyway.

As for actually driving the vehicles I can only imagine that a segway could fit Deus Ex's game style.

Lucifer
4th Oct 2013, 14:54
The idea with driving the vehicles is unacceptable.There is no way that the community will accept it and me too.Its one of the stupid ideas like zombies were needed in DXHR.If you want drive go play other game NFs or something.

SpecX
4th Oct 2013, 14:55
I always felt like the need of using vehicles in Deus Ex. Other than that, agreed with everything you said David.

WildcatPhoenix
4th Oct 2013, 15:02
Hahaha. Did some troll was so hard over vehicles? I do not hope, that my suggestions are treated negatively, because of some User i do not know ;)


Lol. The username alone should tell you everything you need to know about CoDEllite. (and no, don't worry, you're nowhere near his league of bad ideas!)



I thought vehicles would be a good addition. It simply has not to be a GTA, but breaking in a Car, streets filled with cars, hiding in a trunk, hiding under a truck, while its driving into a base.... Breaking into a car, to search it for evidence, or to plant a bomb. There are a lot of gamedesign ideas behind vehicles. They are too static in Deus Ex HR.

I dont want a battlefield or GTA, i want to have a feeling of a world i can interact with. Therefore vehicles would be one asset, but if you look at my list, its only on the bottom, the other stuff, like shooting out light, or non deadly weapons and stealth gameplay mechanics are MUCH MORE important to me.

Now, having more vehicles in the world would be perfectly fine. Parked (or even moving) in the streets, flying overhead, etc. It would be awesome to be able to use your strength aug to flip a car over on to an enemy, or turn it over on its side to use for cover. I also like the idea of riding into a base beneath a convoy vehicle (would that require the ability to lay prone? Not a terrible idea, I suppose).

CyberP
5th Oct 2013, 16:29
The biggest problem with vehicles in DX is, where the **** would you drive them? Levels may be large but they require overcoming traps, platforming etc etc. Let me rephrase: Drivable vehicles have no place in DX, but cars as deco, Jock's chopper, etc makes sense, just not drivable. Not mention if you could have vehicles, the level designers would most likely trade depth for breath (for more open space to drive in) and no true Deus Ex fan would want this, and Deus Ex's level design ****s on open world games, even Fallout: New Vegas. Furthermore you could just run everybody over, through traps etc, instead of taking those challenges on directly on foot, as it should be.

Final, dare I say objective verdict: No ******* drivable vehicles in Deus Ex.

HERESY
5th Oct 2013, 19:47
Cut scenes using the game engine. If this is not an option the videos used should be HD not a compressed format.

60FPS. I don't need to go into this.

24 bit audio. There is no need dither or truncate the 24 bit files to 16 bit and then to mp3 or from 24 bit straight to mp3. Just keep the audio in the 24 bit realm. 5.1 is preferred, stereo is acceptable but just keep it in 24 bit format.

Better animations and no more phantom limbs. In Thief you have Garrett actually opening up doors and picking up items. This is a good thing. We don't need game world where items are picked up by phantom limbs and doors and things are moved by some mysterious ghost.

No automatically seeing through objects you're holding. Use a button or combination of buttons that allow you to peek from the side of the object or over the top of it. If you still go the route of seeing through objects, at least tie it into the story and make it believable. If not, you've taken me out of the game world and I'm just playing a game.

Multiple camera options. First person. Third person. Hybrid. It can be done, there is no disputing this.

Optional radar.

New game + mode. If players want to play that way allow them to play that way.

User created content for console owners and SDK/mod tools for pc gamers. This will extend the life of the game and keep it in the tray. That's your goal right? To keep YOUR GAME in the tray?

Better story. CONFLICT. CONFLICT. CONFLICT. Just go back to Aristotle's Coercive System and stick to it.

Vehicles. I'm in this futuristic world yet I can't hop in a ride? I'm running around like an idiot or catching a plane all the time?

Melee combat. Enough said. However, if you insist on going the previous route don't cut to the animation sequence. Pull the camera back when the animation starts and zoom back in when it is finished. Some good examples of this may be found in the Halo series where Chief goes into 3rd person when using certain items and weapons.

Character customization. If the new game is not based on the lead from HR or the guy from the ED games then allow us to customize the appearance of the character (ME, Dragon Age, Borderlands, Destiny, etc.)

David Holy
5th Oct 2013, 21:03
Cut scenes using the game engine. If this is not an option the videos used should be HD not a compressed format.



YES! YES! I think the same. This crappy prerendered stuff made me feel a bit sad, because there were high quality prerendered Quality Trailers! Game Engine is pretty cool, because you can see the weapons he has got at the moment with him. I would stick with both, but not this hybrid stuff.




60FPS. I don't need to go into this.

24 bit audio. There is no need dither or truncate the 24 bit files to 16 bit and then to mp3 or from 24 bit straight to mp3. Just keep the audio in the 24 bit realm. 5.1 is preferred, stereo is acceptable but just keep it in 24 bit format.

Better animations and no more phantom limbs. In Thief you have Garrett actually opening up doors and picking up items. This is a good thing. We don't need game world where items are picked up by phantom limbs and doors and things are moved by some mysterious ghost.



YES. NO PHANTOM LIMBS. MORE MIRRORS EDGE STYLE!




No automatically seeing through objects you're holding. Use a button or combination of buttons that allow you to peek from the side of the object or over the top of it. If you still go the route of seeing through objects, at least tie it into the story and make it believable. If not, you've taken me out of the game world and I'm just playing a game.

Multiple camera options. First person. Third person. Hybrid. It can be done, there is no disputing this.



Intersting idea. I liked the solution the offered very much! But more options will surely satisfy third person players!




Optional radar.

New game + mode. If players want to play that way allow them to play that way.



YES! That is SOMETHING I DEFINETLY want. It may even offer more opportunities. A good example herefore is Vagrant Story or even Dragon Quest for P2. And it makes the game easier :) Very easy to do and would make so happy. Go for New Game +




User created content for console owners and SDK/mod tools for pc gamers. This will extend the life of the game and keep it in the tray. That's your goal right? To keep YOUR GAME in the tray?



You are talking about modding? Modding is always good, but works in my oppinion only on PC and not on consoles. It will start with nude mods, i believe ;) Makes me think about an femals Version of Adam Jensen like in Mass Effect. Or on the other side, a funny augment, that guys react to you, like you are a woman! :lmao:




Better story. CONFLICT. CONFLICT. CONFLICT. Just go back to Aristotle's Coercive System and stick to it.



Regarding the story: It was REALLY good. But still, there was missing a lot of conspiracy like the first Deus Ex and more links to the first Game. MIBs, MJ12 and so on.




Vehicles. I'm in this futuristic world yet I can't hop in a ride? I'm running around like an idiot or catching a plane all the time?



Vehicles would be really troublesome for designers and budget, but i want to see it also, like mechs or motorbikes. An easy solution would be a driving level like in headhunter. Or even small levels where you can use vehicles (like in FF7, bicycle scene) or simply make an arcade game hall, where you can play vehicles and make some funny comment about not using vehicles (Maybe Jensen lost his driving license...)




Melee combat. Enough said. However, if you insist on going the previous route don't cut to the animation sequence. Pull the camera back when the animation starts and zoom back in when it is finished. Some good examples of this may be found in the Halo series where Chief goes into 3rd person when using certain items and weapons.



I definetly want to see bare fists... its a bit strange, that if you have no battery and no weapons, you cant do anything. THATS DISTURBING. But a complex fighting system? I do not know if they need it. I thought the fight solution of HITMAN was very good. I know its Quicktime, and people hate it. But i think its a perfect balance of putting up a cinematic fight.




Character customization. If the new game is not based on the lead from HR or the guy from the ED games then allow us to customize the appearance of the character (ME, Dragon Age, Borderlands, Destiny, etc.)

Yeah, i would be so happy to get this. Most of it i would like to enjoy my living room! I honestly thought about building in my new house, a section, who looked like Jensens Appartment. Hahaa ;) (Unfortunately it was too expensive...)

Doom972
5th Oct 2013, 22:33
All I want is to have melee weapons again (doesn't matter if takedowns are still in the game), and actual endings that are achieved by different actions.

All the other problems I had with DXHR are supposedly fixed in the Director's Cut, so I won't bother mentioning those.

Shralla
6th Oct 2013, 02:12
Just want to repeat a big part of your opening post:

MORE INTERACTIVITY

Caps for emphasis. We need more everything. More doors to open, more ways to open them, more random stuff to pick up for no reason other than it makes a more believable world. It should not take me fifteen minutes of scouring to find enough boxes to stack high enough to get over a wall that I could get over with the jump augmentation. And yes, all this stuff should be able to be destroyed, just like in the original.

El_Bel
6th Oct 2013, 11:18
Remove health regeneration. Implement partial regeneration as an aug and localised health.
Get a new lead writer.
Award skill points just like the original to discourage XP farming or promoting one gameplay style over another.

Wow that was easy.

Jerion
6th Oct 2013, 13:50
Remove health regeneration. Implement partial regeneration as an aug and localised health.
Get a new lead writer.
Award skill points just like the original to discourage XP farming or promoting one gameplay style over another.

Wow that was easy.

Okay, now go draw up the design doc. We'll wait. :)

sonicsidewinder
6th Oct 2013, 13:54
Refer to CopyPasta Thread and work from there.

El_Bel
6th Oct 2013, 14:32
Now I could do it way better than EM and I could do even more if I had a team, but why would I waste my time like that? I don't own the rights to the game and it's not like the developers read the forums so they can take notes or anything. And if I wanted to discuss game design ideas I would visit a game design forum!

WildcatPhoenix
6th Oct 2013, 15:42
Cut scenes using the game engine. If this is not an option the videos used should be HD not a compressed format.


Or how about we move away from cutscenes altogether? Or at least limit them to transitions from one mission to the next. Anything that takes control out of the player's hands is bad, in my opinion. That includes conversations- one of the few areas where DXHR takes a more innovative approach than DX1.



Multiple camera options. First person. Third person. Hybrid. It can be done, there is no disputing this.

Optional radar.


Holy crap, I'm agreeing with Heresy again! It really is this simple, though. Just make 3rd person an option for those who want it, and give those who prefer 1st person a viable cover/lean option. No more mini-cutscene takedowns either (or at least give us the option to disable them).

Optional radar is equally important. MAKE. IT. AN. AUG. It's not difficult.



User created content for console owners and SDK/mod tools for pc gamers. This will extend the life of the game and keep it in the tray. That's your goal right? To keep YOUR GAME in the tray?


This is an absolute must. We've been over it before, but mod tools: a) extend the life of your game by allowing for years (even decades!) of user-created content, b) allow for new innovative ideas by effectively allowing the public to participate in the game-development process, c) can serve as free (emphasis on free!) bug-fixing and troubleshooting, and d) allow for additional sales as some customers who weren't interested in the vanilla version of the game may purchase it in order to play a user-created mod.



Better story. CONFLICT. CONFLICT. CONFLICT. Just go back to Aristotle's Coercive System and stick to it.


Wow, that's twice in one thread I've agreed with you on something. This is beginning to feel uncomfortable.



Vehicles. I'm in this futuristic world yet I can't hop in a ride? I'm running around like an idiot or catching a plane all the time?


Ahh, now that's more like it. Vehicles should only be used to transition between missions. The last thing I want in a Deus Ex game is to drive a tank down the street shooting at enemies who foolishly pop out from behind cover (ala Call of Duty), or some on-rails "Jensen, get to the turret!" mission.



Melee combat. Enough said. However, if you insist on going the previous route don't cut to the animation sequence. Pull the camera back when the animation starts and zoom back in when it is finished. Some good examples of this may be found in the Halo series where Chief goes into 3rd person when using certain items and weapons.


Yikes, back to agreement again. Oh well.

Melee combat is essential and opens up a completely different style of play. No more magic energy candy bars required. Just give me a plain, old-fashioned knife or baton and let me whack some unsuspecting goons.



Character customization. If the new game is not based on the lead from HR or the guy from the ED games then allow us to customize the appearance of the character (ME, Dragon Age, Borderlands, Destiny, etc.)

Agreed yet again. Deus Ex is an FPS/RPG hybrid. A major part of the RPG experience is character customization. Let us tell our character's story, not sit back and watch a movie about someone else.


All I want is to have melee weapons again (doesn't matter if takedowns are still in the game), and actual endings that are achieved by different actions.


Definitely the last part. The final mission should not be a simple question of "Push Button A, B, C, or D." Give us conflicting objectives. Hell, if you really want to be creative, have the player's choices throughout the game potentially lead to more than one final mission/map.


Just want to repeat a big part of your opening post:

MORE INTERACTIVITY

Caps for emphasis. We need more everything. More doors to open, more ways to open them, more random stuff to pick up for no reason other than it makes a more believable world. It should not take me fifteen minutes of scouring to find enough boxes to stack high enough to get over a wall that I could get over with the jump augmentation. And yes, all this stuff should be able to be destroyed, just like in the original.

Yessir. All the fancy static background decoration in the world doesn't mean a thing when you need a highlighting system just to help the player differentiate between interactive items and useless clutter.


Remove health regeneration. Implement partial regeneration as an aug and localised health.
Get a new lead writer.
Award skill points just like the original to discourage XP farming or promoting one gameplay style over another.


The "just make it an aug" line of design should be applied to almost everything. Regen health is fine, as long as it is optional and must be upgraded to achieve maximum functionality.

Sadly, I agree with you about the writing. I'm not going to launch a personal attack here, but the characters, the plot, and even some of the dialogue in DXHR was not up to standard.

I'm not sure I agree about returning to DX1's skill system, however. It was non-sensical for a player to be able to allocate points at whim (ex: I accumulate points through exploration and completion of objectives, which I then pour into my rifle skills and become a master sniper, even though I have never once used a rifle weapon in the game). However, going with a Call of Duty-style XP system would take some serious tweaking to avoid the exact "XP farming" problem you described.

I think EM should try to get creative here. Don't reward one playstyle over the other, but try to find a way to make XP correspond to a player's actions in the game.

EricaLeeV
6th Oct 2013, 17:49
I would actually prefer there not be a great deal of character customization when it comes to the appearance and such. I like it when the character has a fairly concrete aspects of their personality and look as I believe the linear storylines for the Deus Ex games tend to call for that kind of thing. Of course, the actions and set up of the character should be up to the player.

Shralla
6th Oct 2013, 17:50
Holy crap, I'm agreeing with Heresy again! It really is this simple, though. Just make 3rd person an option for those who want it, and give those who prefer 1st person a viable cover/lean option. No more mini-cutscene takedowns either (or at least give us the option to disable them).

It's really not that simple, though. Third and first person games have entirely different level design requirements. Being able to lean is not the same thing as constant third-person awareness, and isn't even the same as a third-person cover system. Like I said, the level design requirements are totally different and adding the "option" for both will just make each of them weaker than if they had the entire game designed around one POV. Everybody says "it can be done" but you can't name a single game that was improved by adding another POV, because doing something like that WEAKENS the overall game every single time (except maybe something like Elder Scrolls where perspective genuinely doesn't matter and they can just slap a crappy third-person camera on it and call it a day).

You can't design a shooter (or a shooter/RPG hybrid) to properly support both first and third-person play. It's not even a vaguely realistic goal because there is no way to balance the two and not have one be objectively superior to the other. 9/10 times third-person is going to come out on top, just due to its effect on gameplay.

CyberP
6th Oct 2013, 19:38
I would actually prefer there not be a great deal of character customization when it comes to the appearance and such. I like it when the character has a fairly concrete aspects of their personality and look as I believe the linear storylines for the Deus Ex games tend to call for that kind of thing. Of course, the actions and set up of the character should be up to the player.

Agreed. Waste of development resources imo. It's even worse when you can choose gender as that's loads more voice acting and differing reactions based on gender. Form a solid character and tell a solid story. Adam Jensen & JC were cool. I partly blame IW's uninteresting main characters due to the fact there were the option for two. Leave the dress up Barbie and Ken aspects to Bioware and Bethesda.

Sure, you could argue that it would help immersion if one could customise the player character to represent oneself in the visual sense, but the writing suffers as a result if gender can be chosen, all those art assets are costly and I just see it waste when the time implementing a vast system could be spent on something else that has a greater impact, something gameplay or story related.

Shralla
6th Oct 2013, 20:00
I wouldn't be opposed to having a defined character of each gender, each with their own personal storyline that kind of comes together towards the end. Whoever you're not playing as you get to interact with, etc. I know that it would take a ton of resources, but it's the only good way to do something like that, at least in a Deus Ex game.

So really they're better off with one protagonist. I wouldn't mind if it were a woman, in fact I think I might like that for a change. Deus Ex as a franchise is certainly a good candidate for propagating well-written female protagonists.

HERESY
6th Oct 2013, 21:23
You are talking about modding? Modding is always good, but works in my oppinion only on PC and not on consoles. It will start with nude mods, i believe ;) Makes me think about an femals Version of Adam Jensen like in Mass Effect.

PC would have full tools at their disposal. Console would have user generated content similar to Infamous, LBP, Halo's Forge Mode, HA's Contract Mode, etc.


Regarding the story: It was REALLY good. But still, there was missing a lot of conspiracy like the first Deus Ex and more links to the first Game. MIBs, MJ12 and so on.

IMHO the story was ok but could have been better. When I say better story I'm not talking about conspiracy stuff or any specific topic. I'm talking about the components that contribute to a story from a writing and technical point. Does it stir your emotions and have you feeling empathetic towards the protagonist? Is the pacing there? At the end of the story do you, as a consumer, experience catharsis?



Or how about we move away from cutscenes altogether? Or at least limit them to transitions from one mission to the next. Anything that takes control out of the player's hands is bad, in my opinion. That includes conversations- one of the few areas where DXHR takes a more innovative approach than DX1.

You can't move away from cutscenes or limit them to transitions because it's a matter of pacing. At times the control should be taken out of the players hands and the reason for this control removal is so the player can actually process what just happened. Again, this goes back to a matter of pacing.


Ahh, now that's more like it. Vehicles should only be used to transition between missions. The last thing I want in a Deus Ex game is to drive a tank down the street shooting at enemies who foolishly pop out from behind cover (ala Call of Duty), or some on-rails "Jensen, get to the turret!" mission.

No, I wouldn't say they should only be used to transition between missions. You could use a vehicle as a hub of sorts, to stake out targets, or as a viable form of transportation, etc. It doesn't have to be armed with weapons or an on rails type of thing. It would simply be there as an option or tie into the story in such a way that it makes sense to have a vehicle.

Shralla
6th Oct 2013, 22:54
You can't move away from cutscenes or limit them to transitions because it's a matter of pacing. At times the control should be taken out of the players hands and the reason for this control removal is so the player can actually process what just happened.

Now here I go agreeing with HERESY. He's proposing using in-engine cutscenes which essentially end up being the same as conversations you have in the course of gameplay. There are plenty of times in the original Deus Ex where JC has a conversation with somebody and you don't get any dialog options or anything. It was just framed as a conversation and not as a crappy compressed FMV so it wasn't an annoyance and didn't take you out of the game.

WildcatPhoenix
7th Oct 2013, 03:36
I would actually prefer there not be a great deal of character customization when it comes to the appearance and such. I like it when the character has a fairly concrete aspects of their personality and look as I believe the linear storylines for the Deus Ex games tend to call for that kind of thing. Of course, the actions and set up of the character should be up to the player.

Did it matter one bit in DX1 if JC Denton was Caucasian, black, or albino? No.
Would the character's facial features or clothing style matter at all? No.
Customization attaches certain players to their characters. It makes them feel as if they (or more appropriately, their avatar) is participating in the story. Why else do you think they let you, the player, come up with JC's real name in DX1 and used it occasionally in newspaper reports, e-mails, etc?



You can't design a shooter (or a shooter/RPG hybrid) to properly support both first and third-person play. It's not even a vaguely realistic goal because there is no way to balance the two and not have one be objectively superior to the other. 9/10 times third-person is going to come out on top, just due to its effect on gameplay.

I'm gonna get some eyerolls here, but I honestly think some of the later Halo games have done a good job with this. No, there aren't a ton of third-person camera switches involved, and no, the entire game is not playable from the third-person perspective. But neither is DXHR. It's a forced mix of both (don't even start with the "you don't have to take cover!" argument- unless you want to go through DXHR never taking cover, never climbing ladders, or never using takedowns, you'll be forced to use third person eventually).

You're right, it's likely that one perspective or the other would be superior to the other. It still doesn't prevent the player from sticking to his/her preferred perspective.



You can't move away from cutscenes or limit them to transitions because it's a matter of pacing. At times the control should be taken out of the players hands and the reason for this control removal is so the player can actually process what just happened. Again, this goes back to a matter of pacing.


Seriously? You think a mission can't be properly paced without mid-mission cutscenes? :scratch:

EricaLeeV
7th Oct 2013, 03:48
Did it matter one bit in DX1 if JC Denton was Caucasian, black, or albino? No.
Would the character's facial features or clothing style matter at all? No.
Customization attaches certain players to their characters. It makes them feel as if they (or more appropriately, their avatar) is participating in the story. Why else do you think they let you, the player, come up with JC's real name in DX1 and used it occasionally in newspaper reports, e-mails, etc?

I always choose the default JC because he was on the cover and I felt that was the way the devs pictured him to be.


Like I said, I (as in me, personally) wouldn't care for more customization in the character. I know some people like that character customization business but I'm not one of them. Not when it comes to this game anyway.

HERESY
7th Oct 2013, 03:56
Nope. The reason being is because it's cookie cutter. If the cutscene is in the same place for each level it doesn't take long to figure it out and at that point you're playing just to get through the cuts. Things should be dynamic instead of static. So lets say you have 16 letters A and B. Ababababab...doesnt allow you to create tension and release like ababbabaaabab...

ETA: I HATE TYPING ON PHONES!

Jerion
7th Oct 2013, 04:27
The "just make it an aug" line of design should be applied to almost everything. Regen health is fine, as long as it is optional and must be upgraded to achieve maximum functionality.

...

I'm not sure I agree about returning to DX1's skill system, however. It was non-sensical for a player to be able to allocate points at whim (ex: I accumulate points through exploration and completion of objectives, which I then pour into my rifle skills and become a master sniper, even though I have never once used a rifle weapon in the game). However, going with a Call of Duty-style XP system would take some serious tweaking to avoid the exact "XP farming" problem you described.

I think EM should try to get creative here. Don't reward one playstyle over the other, but try to find a way to make XP correspond to a player's actions in the game.

I'm gonna throw on my armchair designer hat for a minute and join in here. :)

It's a two-sided problem.

First, XP was awarded based on location, when it should have been awarded based on exploration (when in a side area) and progression (when on a central path). Example: Paths A, B and C all lead to the same area. Action Path A has 50 xp reward. Stealth Path B has 50 xp reward. Alternate Path C has 50 xp reward. In a simple system you could take path A, then go off and find paths B and C, then walk away with 150 points. A better alternative is an anti-farming system where if you take path C and get the 50 points, the rewards for paths A and B are disabled. Takes longer to implement and more difficult to keep track of on a large scale, but probably worth the payoff.

The second part is how XP is spent. I've always thought the idea of blending augs and XP (thus turning "skills" into augmentations) was a clever one. The DX:HR implementation had two basic faults though, far as I can see: First, the vast majority of augs were passive, and were skills in all but name. In hindsight the aug list should have been more evenly distributed between active and passive. Second, there was no mutual exclusivity, only resource-based limitation. While it opened up new options, it also meant that there was little genuine consequence for choosing one augmentation over another.

If you tackle the more obvious problems that make XP too easily obtained and remove the XP incentives for particular playstyles, then deal with the other half, most of what could be considered broken ought to be fixed.

As far as regen health goes: combining regenerative health with the aug system and locational damage is doable, it just requires some creativity. HR already had it presented as a "preinstalled" aug. I might be a bit, erm, heretical here, but I like what the move to regenerative health did for combat. The trick is to add in complexity in an elegant way.

Here's my rough outline:


Just a few late-night thoughts. Taking off the proverbial hat now.

El_Bel
7th Oct 2013, 08:49
That's a nice idea. I would prefer this a million times over HR health regeneration. But unfortunately it is not enough. Ask CyberP about trying to balance health regeneration!

As for me, I want it out altogether. I want it out from the original game as well. Health regeneration ruins tension like nothing else. Now partial regeneration is a bit better. Like your augmentation system Jerion, but only healing back to 50% of the health. (If I wanted to be hardcore and not care about the game being accessible I would say 20% with a fully upgraded one going up to 50-60%)

CyberP
7th Oct 2013, 13:14
I'm gonna throw on my armchair designer hat for a minute and join in here. :)

It's a two-sided problem.

First, XP was awarded based on location, when it should have been awarded based on exploration (when in a side area) and progression (when on a central path). Example: Paths A, B and C all lead to the same area. Action Path A has 50 xp reward. Stealth Path B has 50 xp reward. Alternate Path C has 50 xp reward. In a simple system you could take path A, then go off and find paths B and C, then walk away with 150 points. A better alternative is an anti-farming system where if you take path C and get the 50 points, the rewards for paths A and B are disabled. Takes longer to implement and more difficult to keep track of on a large scale, but probably worth the payoff.


Actually, I'd prefer if the levels were not designed in such a way at all (consistent paths A, B & C).
DX1's levels were not like that. Sure, some of the more linear levels (Airfield sewers for example) were designed as one path primary path with optional splits, but none of the paths rewarded an exploration bonus here. Exploration bonuses were for secrets only mostly. DX1's levels were mostly large with many paths, but only hard to find places rewarded an XP bonus. All those office storming missions in DX:HR consisted of paths A, B & C with XP rewards for each, crawling in all the vents. DX1 wasn't like that.
Still, the idea of disabling path B & C's triggers if you trigger A's is a good one, but I'd prefer a DX1 approach to level design and XP, which is just plain better.



As for me, I want it out altogether. I want it out from the original game as well. Health regeneration ruins tension like nothing else. Now partial regeneration is a bit better. Like your augmentation system Jerion, but only healing back to 50% of the health. (If I wanted to be hardcore and not care about the game being accessible I would say 20% with a fully upgraded one going up to 50-60%)

Technically, DX:HR's regen health only regenerated 50% as there is 200 health points maximum, but that is irrelevant because you only ever needed 100hp anyway. I agree if there is going to be regen health it should be an optional aug and only regen up to a certain % when fully upgraded so health items are still somewhat important. Plenty of games only have partial regeneration, so I don't see why a series that originally had one of the most in-depth health systems should get a full regen health system by default (full if we ignore the 200 max hp, which we should).

DX:HR's health system wasn't terrible though as it took a while to regen at least.



This is unbalanced as arms & legs are not as important to survival yet cost the same praxis as torso & head regen. Path on the right=2 praxis each, path on the left=1.

Also arms should effect weapon sway and recoil, but only recoil once both arms are damn near gone. Legs should cause limping (with on-screen visual camera effect like newer Fallouts) if one is critical and no sprinting & jumping if both is critical.
Every time you receive damage the timer before regen health kicks in (lets say 8 seconds) is reset.

This is a compromise though, as I'd prefer the health system to be like DX's but expanded on. (only the optional regen aug receiving a nerf as it was insanely OP).

Arm chair designer hat is now off, but kept to hand ;)

68_pie
7th Oct 2013, 13:24
DX:HR's health system wasn't terrible though as it took a while to regen at least.

How often were you in situation where your health was an issue?

CyberP
7th Oct 2013, 13:49
How often were you in situation where your health was an issue?

When playing combat playstyle, quite a few. When Stealth, bossfights only I guess. Yes it was bad (regen with no consequence is bad by default, at least DX1's consumed bio energy which was somewhat limited and had to be manually activated and was optional ) but it wasn't terrible (insta-regen after 5 seconds).

WildcatPhoenix
7th Oct 2013, 14:03
I'm wrapping up yet another playthrough of DX1 (for mod research, just in case we get an SDK with DX4 or somewhere along the line), and the health regeneration aug makes the game drastically easier, without question. Not only that, but it completely changes your approach to combat...if you are playing as a combat-oriented character, of course.

I simply disagree that health regen should be installed by default. And it certainly should require some sort of bioenergy or expendable resource. If a player doesn't want to bother looking for resources, or wants to play as a run-and-gun berserker, then give him the chance to install/upgrade health regen as an aug. But don't give the player this kind of game-altering mechanic from the outset, even if it is severely limited in functionality.

CyberP
7th Oct 2013, 14:08
I'm wrapping up yet another playthrough of DX1 (for mod research, just in case we get an SDK with DX4 or somewhere along the line), and the health regeneration aug makes the game drastically easier, without question. Not only that, but it completely changes your approach to combat...if you are playing as a combat-oriented character, of course.

I simply disagree that health regen should be installed by default. And it certainly should require some sort of bioenergy or expendable resource. If a player doesn't want to bother looking for resources, or wants to play as a run-and-gun berserker, then give him the chance to install/upgrade health regen as an aug. But don't give the player this kind of game-altering mechanic from the outset, even if it is severely limited in functionality.

Did you play GMDX? If so, what did you think of the health regen aug nerfs and Energy Shield buffs?

Regen vanilla:

Health values: lvl1=10, lvl2=20, lvl3=40, lvl4=40
Cycle time= 1 second
Energy Consumption= 120.000000

Regen GMDX:

Health values: 5, 10, 15, 20
Cycle time= 2 seconds (primary reason for this was because drowning damage cycled every 1 second, you could counter drowning with regen vanilla, but 2 seconds is better in general anyway imo).
Energy Consumption= doubled (technically quadrupled if you consider that health is restored every 2 seconds now).

Energy Shield was simply made passive.

WildcatPhoenix
7th Oct 2013, 14:22
Did you play GMDX? If so, what did you think of the health regen aug nerfs and Energy Shield buffs?

Yes I did, and I think the changes you made do a lot to improve the balance of those two systems. It's strange (in a good way) how different the final set of missions feel on your mod, and I honestly wish the DX1 devs had thought of more ways to put the microfibral muscle aug to good use. GMDX makes it much more useful, but you can tell the impetus of the level design and items simply isn't built around this feature.

In vanilla DX a player running fully upgraded Ballistic Resistance and Health Regen, both of which can be obtained fairly early on in the game, is practically invulnerable. Even a marginal amount of exploration will yield enough bioelectric cells (the MJ12 commandos even carry them, ffs!) and/or repair bots to make the supposedly more difficult missions near the end a breeze to get through.

I definitely prefer to see a much reduced health regen system (perhaps similar to GMDX, CyberP) in DX4, and by no means should it come installed by default.

CyberP
7th Oct 2013, 14:26
GMDX makes it much more useful, but you can tell the impetus of the level design and items simply isn't built around this feature.

No, but what problems arise from being able to throw the stuff around? I removed a lot of explosive barrels etc in all levels to ensure the player cannot blow up doors and enemies with ease, other times added more normal crates etc.


In vanilla DX a player running fully upgraded Ballistic Resistance and Health Regen, both of which can be obtained fairly early on in the game, is practically invulnerable

Yes, a huge flaw of DX.


I definitely prefer to see a much reduced health regen system (perhaps similar to GMDX, CyberP) in DX4, and by no means should it come installed by default.

:)

Jerion
7th Oct 2013, 15:33
Actually, I'd prefer if the levels were not designed in such a way at all (consistent paths A, B & C).
DX1's levels were not like that. Sure, some of the more linear levels (Airfield sewers for example) were designed as one path primary path with optional splits, but none of the paths rewarded an exploration bonus here. Exploration bonuses were for secrets only mostly. DX1's levels were mostly large with many paths, but only hard to find places rewarded an XP bonus. All those office storming missions in DX:HR consisted of paths A, B & C with XP rewards for each, crawling in all the vents. DX1 wasn't like that.
Still, the idea of disabling path B & C's triggers if you trigger A's is a good one, but I'd prefer a DX1 approach to level design and XP, which is just plain better.


I'm not convinced what you're saying is all that accurate.

Missions in DX essentially were built in two styles: Sandbox and Progressive/Linear. Hell's Kitchen is a sandbox hub, with things to be done. Yet, soon as the player moves off towards their goal, they only have routes A and B: rooftops and underground. Want to get into the NSF warehouse? Four options: roof, underground, front door, side door. Versalife: To access the labs, the player has three options, A, B, and C. Once in the labs? Sure, you can explore a bit and go to off-the-direct-path areas, but to get to the objective you have only two routes (vents and hidden stairs). Ditto accessing the VL UC. Ocean Lab is possibly the worst offender; it's pretty much completely linear. Area 51? Progression-based, and though Sector 4 is built around being a mini-hub, Sector 2 is basically a distilled A, B, C choice by itself. The Lebedev Airfield? Linear with an occasional mini-sandbox and A, B path choices (elevator vs. water). Liberty Island, despite being a mini-sandbox is still adherent to the structure; there are two routes into the statue and ultimately you must choose one of them. Vandenberg is very sandbox-y until you have to deal with the tunnels. Deus Ex is at its best with hubs and mini-sandboxes, but where one-off missions are concerned, the multipath design is almost everywhere; in those instances where it is missing, the game is worse for it. Human Revolution had some clever instances of multipath level design (e.g. Detroit PD, various parts of TML, maybe Omega Ranch). It also had badly contrived ones as well (i.e. vents that only exist to connect two parts of the same hallway :nut:).

As far as XP goes for awarding XP upon reaching an exploration destination rather than simply finding a new path, I agree completely that the DX1 model is better.

You're welcome to revise the regen health model. I spent about three minutes on it. :)

CyberP
7th Oct 2013, 15:42
I'm not convinced what you're saying is all that accurate.

Missions in DX essentially were built in two styles: Sandbox and Progressive/Linear. Hell's Kitchen is a sandbox hub, with things to be done. Yet, soon as the player moves off towards their goal, they only have routes A and B: rooftops and underground. Want to get into the NSF warehouse? Four options: roof, underground, front door, side door. Versalife: To access the labs, the player has three options, A, B, and C. Once in the labs? Sure, you can explore a bit and go to off-the-direct-path areas, but to get to the objective you have only two routes (vents and hidden stairs). Ditto accessing the VL UC. Ocean Lab is possibly the worst offender; it's pretty much completely linear. Area 51? Progression-based, and though Sectors 3 and 4 built around being a couple of mini-hubs, Section 2 is basically A, B, C choice all over again. The Lebedev Airfield? Linear with an occasional mini-sandbox and A, B path choices (elevator vs. water). Liberty Island, despite being a mini-sandbox is still adherent to the structure; there are two routes into the statue and ultimately you must choose one of them. Deus Ex is at its best with hubs and mini-sandboxes, but where one-off missions are concerned, the multipath design is almost everywhere; in those instances where it is missing, the game is worse for it.

I did say that the more linear missions in DX1 was a choice of a few paths, yet the # of paths from mission to mission varies wildly. In HR it's as if they sat down and said "Right, each and every mission needs three paths, one social, one combat/stealth (direct approach), and one hacking". Whilst this is probably not accurate either (there are oftentimes vents uncovered via heavy lifting or Icarus landing shortcuts or breakable walls than there is social paths), the level design just feels more organic in DX1, to me. But that could just be me confusing it with how varied DX1's level design is whilst HR's is not.
However my main point was that exploration bonuses in DX1 were mostly for secret or vital areas or even areas with high risk, never simply choosing one of those paths as in Human Revolution.

I didn't ever find myself crawling in vents that I know lead back out to the entrance simply for the exploration bonus in DX1.

Jerion
7th Oct 2013, 16:06
I did say that the more linear missions in DX1 was a choice of a few paths, yet the # of paths from mission to mission varies wildly. In HR it's as if they sat down and said "Right, each and every mission needs three paths, one social, one combat/stealth (direct approach), and one hacking". Whilst this is probably not accurate either (there are oftentimes vents uncovered via heavy lifting or Icarus landing shortcuts or breakable walls than there is social paths), the level design just feels more organic in DX1, to me. But that could just be me confusing it with how varied DX1's level design is whilst HR's is not.
However my main point was that exploration bonuses in DX1 were mostly for secret or vital areas or even areas with high risk, never simply choosing one of those paths as in Human Revolution.

I didn't ever find myself crawling in vents that I know lead back out to the entrance simply for the exploration bonus in DX1.

In general, yes, there was more variety (for good and occasional bad). I didn't find myself crawling in vents for XP rewards in DX:HR though. Even though I could have done so, I chose to simply move forward because I wasn't interested in combing levels for every possible experience point. I don't feel compelled to do that in games and in instances where it would become a grind, I'm put off by doing too much of it.

CyberP
7th Oct 2013, 16:14
In general, yes, there was more variety (for good and occasional bad). I didn't find myself crawling in vents for XP rewards in DX:HR though. Even though I could have done so, I chose to simply move forward because I wasn't interested in combing levels for every possible experience point.

You must have searched every inch just to see and find everything on at least one playthrough though, otherwise what kind of DX player would you be!? ;)

Anyway, this is only a minor thing DX1 does better as the series is heavily about exploration anyway, I search everywhere every playthrough so I would have probably gone through those vents regardless (unless I was certain there was nothing to see or find in there and it had no tactical advantage).


I don't feel compelled to do that in games and in instances where it would become a grind, I'm put off by doing too much of it.

That's my point, there is no grind in DX1. I explore everywhere because I want to, it's fun, not just to grind xp (though the rewards for exploration are a huge part of it).
There is no fun in copy & paste vent x with the inevitable exploration bonus, but I have to explore everywhere in a game (unless it's a really tedious section), like many people. Luckily vents take a few seconds to crawl through.

Jerion
7th Oct 2013, 16:24
You must have searched every inch just to see and find everything on at least one playthrough though, otherwise what kind of DX player would you be!? ;)

Anyway, this is only a minor thing DX1 does better as the series is heavily about exploration anyway, I search everywhere every playthrough so I would have probably gone through those vents regardless (unless I was certain there was nothing to see or find in there and it had no tactical advantage).

That's my point, there is no grind in DX1. I explore everywhere because I want to, it's fun, not just to grind xp (though the rewards for exploration are a huge part of it).
There is no fun in copy & paste vent x with the inevitable exploration bonus.

Hunting for credits/items, vantage points, hidden spaces/routes and story bits? Yeah. I explored everywhere for those. Not for the XP though- if that was awarded, it was just a bonus. :)

It's true that there is little grind in DX1, probably as much because XP is a reward for being a little bit clever than doing a repeatable task as much as anything else. Definitely one of its stronger points.

CyberP
7th Oct 2013, 16:27
Good, we are in agreement here.

My most recent playthrough of Human Revolution I did skip some bits actually, I remember. I remember getting tired of hacking every damn door and started buying grenades just to blow them up too (or just shoot them down), lol. And XP is nowhere near as valuable as Skill points either.

Jerion
7th Oct 2013, 16:30
Good, we are in agreement here.

My most recent playthrough of Human Revolution I did skip some bits actually, I remember. I remember getting tired of hacking every damn door and started buying grenades just to blow them up too (or just shoot them down), lol. And XP is nowhere near as valuable as Skill points either.

That might be a first!

XP value is a mix of too few worthwhile things to spend it on and the Deus Ex Experience God handing out points like Oprah. I do have a special place in my library for Human Revolution but it really does have some oddness about it.

CyberP
7th Oct 2013, 16:33
That might be a first!

Oh, really? What a shame. Your opinions on what Deus Ex "should be" must really suck then ;)


XP value is a mix of too few worthwhile things to spend it on and the Deus Ex Experience God handing out points like Oprah. I do have a special place in my library for Human Revolution but it really does have some oddness about it.

But the Deus Ex experience God wouldn't have handed out xp so freely, must be an imposter! Oh wait...
Invisible War had none, so they are forgiven, however..

Yes, horrible issues aside, Human Revolution is a keeper for me too. :)

68_pie
7th Oct 2013, 16:45
the level design just feels more organic in DX1.

This.

CyberP
7th Oct 2013, 17:07
(except maybe something like Elder Scrolls where perspective genuinely doesn't matter and they can just slap a crappy third-person camera on it and call it a day).

It does matter though as those games are objectively better in FPP. And yes I like how they slap on the optional crappy third person cam and call it a day, appealing to a broader audience with that but it has no effect on me (well, it does on consoles as it's a waste of a button, but PC doesn't have that issue, at least).

Darthassin
7th Oct 2013, 17:09
Key points next Deus Ex must have:
We should be able to finish the game: - without killing anybody including the bosses.
- without hacking anything
- without firing a single shot
- without using takedown even once

Factory zero playthrough should be possible.

And as I said before - all weapons and items, even the rarest ones should be possible to get no further than in half of the game, so player could play with them for the 2nd half of the game.

And bring back flamethrower and molotov coctails :D

Tverdyj
7th Oct 2013, 18:47
my 5 cents, copied from what I said in the Universe announcement thread--these address my key gripes with HR:


Can we please get a good physics engine this time?

And have less generic NPCs, but have them all saying something interesting? Like not having 2 identical girls on each exit of the Detroit subway complaining that when they get home their boyfriend will be mad at them?

Oh, and please give us a player character who’s not a complete, lovesick moron. For the love of god.

Also: balance XP and bring back melee combat.

DO keep hacking. and conversation battles. And the good level design of places like “the rooftop district” in Hengsha (I think it was actually called Yuzhao, but I’ve spent most of my time hopping on rooftop with ILS to make sure I don’t die, so I’m not sure).

oh, and please don’t outsource your boss battles to people whose idea of “different approaches” amounts to “We have to make sure this boss could be defeated in different ways. It must be fun to do with a shotgun OR with an assault rifle!”

kthanksbai

JCpies
7th Oct 2013, 19:16
MALE HOOKERS

Jerion
7th Oct 2013, 19:44
Is there something you're trying to tell us about yourself?

JCpies
7th Oct 2013, 20:13
Is there something you're trying to tell us about yourself?

That I want me and my peers to be represented in the media for once (and in a non-discriminate manner)?

Jerion
7th Oct 2013, 20:22
That I want me and my peers to be represented in the media for once (and in a non-discriminate manner)?

That's...actually pretty reasonable.

JCpies
7th Oct 2013, 20:31
I'm still a novice though, I haven't had any customers yet. UK peeps, hit me up.

CyberP
7th Oct 2013, 21:30
I'm still a novice though, I haven't had any customers yet. UK peeps, hit me up.

You can be my chamber boy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLTDZxwEipQ).

Shralla
8th Oct 2013, 02:28
EM should be looking at Children of Men for some inspiration. Just watched it again and it is a fantastic near-future look at society. It's even set in 2027.

Spyhopping
8th Oct 2013, 10:46
I've mainly remembered that film for the excellent cinematography.

Ilves
8th Oct 2013, 11:11
It's the weirdest thing with Children of Men. I saw it a few years back, but I don't have any distinct memories of it other than Owen being Owen and something involving a car ride. And maybe a boat? Nothing stuck with me in terms of visuals or production design, or story. And I'm not implying it must have been bad, it's just weird how I don't have a single coherent recollection of that film. And I swear I was sober.

I suppose I'll be re-watching it come weekend since I keep hearing good things about it.

Spyhopping
8th Oct 2013, 11:47
It'll probably be well worth another watch. More often than not, action in films feels like filler, but in Children of Men they handled it wonderfully. The scenes with explosions, blood and violence are on long takes with great camera work. It makes it feel very real.

68_pie
8th Oct 2013, 12:32
Alfonso Cuaron is a genius - he made the only watchable Harry Potter film.

HERESY
8th Oct 2013, 18:28
It's the weirdest thing with Children of Men. I saw it a few years back, but I don't have any distinct memories of it other than Owen being Owen and something involving a car ride. And maybe a boat? Nothing stuck with me in terms of visuals or production design, or story. And I'm not implying it must have been bad, it's just weird how I don't have a single coherent recollection of that film. And I swear I was sober.

I suppose I'll be re-watching it come weekend since I keep hearing good things about it.

Same here. I watched it, forgot about it, Googled it after Shralla mentioned and remembered what it was about. Then I forgot about it again...

And from what I remember I don't recall the movie being bad.

Shralla
8th Oct 2013, 19:37
It wasn't really an action movie, kind of just a dystopian science fiction movie. Those always have some action inherently, but the main character never gets in any fights or even picks up any guns.

davidholycom
10th Apr 2015, 23:58
Hey mates!
If anyone of my hints, critics or written stuff, helped you out: I would almost get an heartattack if i would be mentioned in the "Thanks to" credits in Deus Ex 4. By the way... it looks really amazing! Only one thing is very very very bad: Year 2016. Its a crime and should be punished ;)

CyberP
11th Apr 2015, 23:49
Lol.