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Berr
3rd Oct 2013, 01:04
I get a bit riled up about some of the harsher criticism of DXHR and Eidos Montreal around here. It's because I am well aware of the following three points about the Eidos Montreal team, which I'm sharing below. Hopefully this post will enlighten/remind some people here and cause them to consider curbing some of their negativity.

The Eidos Montreal team love Deus Ex
The entire studio staff was recruited on the basis that they would get to work on a new DX game. So, these guys and gals came together specifically for the purpose of making a new DX game. They love DX, otherwise they wouldn't be there.

The Eidos Montreal team are real people, who read these forums
The team who make DXHR and onwards aren't some faceless 'corporation'. They're real people with real feelings, and here on the official Eidos DXHR forum, what you write is likely to be read by some people on the team. So if you say something cruel like 'for the next DX game to be good it needs a whole new team making it' (and someone has said that here recently), ouch - that's really harsh. Not cool man.

The Eidos Montreal team need to eat
This forum naturally tends to attract more serious gamers, so there is understandably a bias here towards harder difficulty and more 'old school' gameplay. And so fair enough people put in requests for the DX games to support this type of thing. But when people suggest the DX games should be exclusively built for that kind of hardcore audience rather than also appealing to a wider audience of mainstream gamers, it's just not realistic given the cost of making this type of game.


And for anyone on the Eidos Montreal team reading this: I love your work and I'm looking forward to DXHR - Directors Cut, DX4 and whatever else you're cooking up :)

WildcatPhoenix
3rd Oct 2013, 01:16
You are missing some context here, Berr.

A lot of us have been around on these boards since their inception, back when DXHR was just a vague announcement (similar to the one we just got for DX4). There was a ton of excitement, bordering on giddiness. People posted all sorts of ideas, suggestions, polls, and questions for the development team. Information about the game eventually made its way out across the internet, but never in response to anyone here on the official forums. Every bit of info, every interview, every screenshot, etc was released elsewhere and debated here. Many people began to have some concerns and asked for clarification about these issues.

EM's response? There was no response. Nothing, not a word.

When the game actually released, many of us had major problems with some of the choices made by the development team. We had voiced these concerns for years on these forums, but it didn't matter. Now, the situation has changed significantly in the past year. EM has put new moderators and community liaisons in place, and even if the dev team doesn't get on the forums often to speak to us in person, it does appear that Eidos is listening (at the very least).

We -the people making criticisms- are not trying to insult EM's artistic integrity or their talent. But if they're listening, we want our opinions to be heard. Most of us have very valid and reasonable positions which we, the long-time and loyal fans of the Deus Ex series, expect to be considered (at the least). If we can't voice those opinions and concerns here, on the forums, then where exactly should we voice them?

(...and no, there is never an excuse for rudeness or vitriol. That's beside the point).

CyberP
3rd Oct 2013, 01:50
If I have offended anyone then I apologize. I do love the game, a love/hate relationship, hence my efforts to point out what I consider it's flaws and it's merits. It would be interesting if the circumstances were different and the team could join the discussions & some defend some decisions made.
I can only hope I have been fair in my criticisms.

As for your third point, I've said it before and I'll say it again: games such as these should be designed the traditional way, THEN have focused efforts towards the end of development adding optional hand-holding and other elements that ensure newcomers/stereotypical modern gamers can get into the game easy, exclusive to easy & normal difficulty as well as options in the menu.
Additionally, Fallout: New Vegas, Dark Souls & DX:HR itself are proof that complex and/or challenging gameplay sells well in this day & age. Why DX:HR? Because it has elements that require paying attention and learning unfamiliar (to some) rules: hacking, limited ammo, excellent grid-based inventory system, navigating huge hubs etc.

Good, "proper" games not selling well anymore is a false belief, one Square Enix believes in nowadays if Tomb Raider & Hiytman is anything to go by. That's their problem, they need to start making good games again, there hasn't been one since DX:HR. Sales will be there, it's the brand name and the marketing that draws in the crowds & gets the initial sales, then word of mouth (if the game is really damn good) will rocket the sales up even further.
People do not want QTE's and the like, even the casuals dislike them apparently.

Berr
3rd Oct 2013, 07:19
@WildcatPhoenix Yeah I kept well clear of everything DXHR pre-release up until that E3 trailer because I didn't want to get psyched up and then (I assumed) inevitably disappointed.

I have looked back though and have seen a series of videos of JJB (I think?) talking to the fans. And them making options for the old-school fans like the option to turn off the yellow highlight on interactive objects. So they did listen and even act on it sometimes.

But the tone of what many people write here expects more than to be listened to, but to actually have the direction of the game controlled by their opinions/desires. It's nice to be involved in that kind of collaborate development - I'm following with interest as that is happening in the kickstarted Project Eternity, and with EVE-Online and their player-elected council who provide input to game design/features. But its not realistic to expect to have a strong voice in the direction of a new game simply because you are a fan of previous games in the franchise. It's impossible to please everyone, so it's inevitable that there will be plenty aspects of any new game that won't be how you want them to be.

@CyperP You are one of the people around here who although I may disagree with, I respect your constructive criticism style. I haven't seen anything from you that I would consider offensive - at least not to the Eidos Montreal team ;).

I do totally agree with you that DXHR is an example of a more complex game that is in more demand than some studios seem to think. And I hope they'll keep at least the DXHR complexity in DX4+.

(ps. Limited ammo is a sign of a more complex game now? ugh I don't want to know what games you are referring to that feature unlimited ammo .. sounds awful).

THC 303
3rd Oct 2013, 09:19
EM's response? There was no response. Nothing, not a word.

they did respond
- they made the highlighting of objects optional after it was criticised here
- they talked lenghts about their decision to have regenerative health/third person cover and stuff in HR

you can't say they didn't say a word, maybe they didn't do everything you demanded from them but they definitely responded to the community

68_pie
3rd Oct 2013, 12:04
they did respond
- they made the highlighting of objects optional after it was criticised here
- they talked lenghts about their decision to have regenerative health/third person cover and stuff in HR

you can't say they didn't say a word, maybe they didn't do everything you demanded from them but they definitely responded to the community

You're new and I don't know if you were lurking before but both of the points you are trying to make have been discussed to death and disproved.

Edit:


The Eidos Montreal team love Deus Ex
The entire studio staff was recruited on the basis that they would get to work on a new DX game. So, these guys and gals came together specifically for the purpose of making a new DX game. They love DX, otherwise they wouldn't be there.

Huh, I didn't know you were in the EM human resources department. Some of the higher ups who worked on the game made statements that they loved Deus Ex. It's not like they are going to say they hate it or have no idea what it is if they have been hired to work on it, is it? Whether or not they do love it...I have no idea. Based on DXHR...

You say that they are there because they love DX but later you state that they need to eat. So is it love or is it money?


The Eidos Montreal team are real people, who read these forums
The team who make DXHR and onwards aren't some faceless 'corporation'. They're real people with real feelings, and here on the official Eidos DXHR forum, what you write is likely to be read by some people on the team. So if you say something cruel like 'for the next DX game to be good it needs a whole new team making it' (and someone has said that here recently), ouch - that's really harsh. Not cool man.

Very little evidence whatsoever. No evidence of this during the game's development. Somewhat recently we had JFD(?) (or was it someone else?) make a couple of posts and then disappear as soon as anyone asked him anything. I was probably the person who said that:

'for the next DX game to be good it needs a whole new team making it'

and I'll stand by that. Either they compromised their creative vision or they didn't get DX at all.

It's not my responsibility to care about their feelings. I've never said anything like "they should die if they don't do what I want" because that's bull**** and I'm not that kind of person. However, there's nothing wrong with saying the next DX game might be better served if the current team went and made something else instead.


The Eidos Montreal team need to eat
This forum naturally tends to attract more serious gamers, so there is understandably a bias here towards harder difficulty and more 'old school' gameplay. And so fair enough people put in requests for the DX games to support this type of thing. But when people suggest the DX games should be exclusively built for that kind of hardcore audience rather than also appealing to a wider audience of mainstream gamers, it's just not realistic given the cost of making this type of game.

Again, it's not our responsibility to care about this

CyberP
3rd Oct 2013, 14:02
@CyperP You are one of the people around here who although I may disagree with, I respect your constructive criticism style.

What opinions have you disagreed with, mobile gamer? :p


(ps. Limited ammo is a sign of a more complex game now? ugh I don't want to know what games you are referring to that feature unlimited ammo .. sounds awful).

"Requires paying attention" is what I was referring to there. If you want to shoot guns without completely running out of ammo you have to scavenge and perform inventory sorting (unless auto sort is on), this is a good thing.

AlexOfSpades
3rd Oct 2013, 17:15
You know those guys that beat their wives but then they say that they love them?

JCpies
3rd Oct 2013, 19:23
Personally, I respect the people at EM.

But I can imagine certain members coming face to face with Anfossi or JF in a pub and a conversation escalates into a tirade over gameplay decisions and then a bar fight and all hell breaks loose.

Or they're in a glitched pub where someone smokes a cigarette and the bartender mistakes it for a weapon and attacks them with a shotgun.

Berr
3rd Oct 2013, 22:30
You're new and I don't know if you were lurking before but both of the points you are trying to make have been discussed to death and disproved.

The highlighting of objects is optional, it's a fact that this is a feature of the game. They did make responses to the community as well, the videos still exist. No amount of discussion can 'disprove' either of these things.


You say that they are there because they love DX but later you state that they need to eat. So is it love or is it money?
Oh you can't really love what you're doing if you're being paid anything to do it, that old chestnut. Do you actually think 100+ professionals will work for free for 4 years because they love a game? Welcome to the real world, where people respect themselves enough to know that even if they love doing something, when they are creating something they deserve to be paid for it.


Very little evidence whatsoever. No evidence of this during the game's development. Somewhat recently we had JFD(?) (or was it someone else?) make a couple of posts and then disappear as soon as anyone asked him anything.
Oh surprise, the game devs don't spend a lot of time trying to engage with DX1 fans who are so entitled they think they can have the final say on how the game should be made, with people who openly declare the devs incompetent and coldly declare a lack of concern for them, who brutally criticize DXHR and clearly have a lower opinion of it than the vast majority of gamers or game critics.

No, they have said they read the forums actively and have in the past even if they don't respond, and since I'm not a jaded crazy person I believe them, I don't need 'evidence' (whatever the f that means, what would they do, send you browser history logs).


I was probably the person who said that: 'for the next DX game to be good it needs a whole new team making it' and I'll stand by that. Either they compromised their creative vision or they didn't get DX at all.

It's not my responsibility to care about their feelings. I've never said anything like "they should die if they don't do what I want" because that's bull**** and I'm not that kind of person. However, there's nothing wrong with saying the next DX game might be better served if the current team went and made something else instead.

Again, it's not our responsibility to care about this

And here we have abusive, completely non-constructive criticism of not only the game but the entire dev team. Do you even know what constructive criticism is? There is absolutely zero chance that a comment like this is going to result in change. It's insulting, alienating of the devs, and does not provide feedback that is any way useful to them in the development of future DX games.

Well done keyboard warrior, you completely missed every point in my post. :mad2:

Apparently your default position is to distrust everything Eidos Montreal do, you refuse to believe that they love the games just because they do not come to the same conclusions as you about DX game design (despite detailed interviews and behind the scenes videos in which they demonstrate deep thought put into on the subject), and you insistently refuse to care at all about the dev team as people. Why would anyone at Eidos Montreal give your posts the time of day with attitudes like these? Why am I even doing it? I doubt I will again.

FrankCSIS
3rd Oct 2013, 23:53
I came in here expecting Soylent Green jokes.

Berr
4th Oct 2013, 00:09
I came in here expecting Soylent Green jokes.

Haha sorry to disappoint!

Yeah the title for this thread was not my best work :(


mobile gamer? :p
Haha, did I mention I'm also a big fan of the novels and even enjoyed the comics? Better add 'bookworm' to the titles you are so kind to bestow upon me :lmao:



"Requires paying attention" is what I was referring to there. If you want to shoot guns without completely running out of ammo you have to scavenge and perform inventory sorting (unless auto sort is on), this is a good thing.
Whew. Mainstream gaming has not fallen so low as to offer unlimited ammo yet!

CyberP
4th Oct 2013, 00:58
Whew. Mainstream gaming has not fallen so low as to offer unlimited ammo yet!

Won't be long now.



Haha, did I mention I'm also a big fan of the novels and even enjoyed the comics? Better add 'bookworm' to the titles you are so kind to bestow upon me :lmao:

You did. I'm just teasing again :)

Shralla
4th Oct 2013, 01:02
While the people working at Eidos Montreal are just that, people, they are people who work for a company that is owned by a corporation. If Square Enix says jump, they ask how high. The personal passions of the team members themselves mean almost nothing when it comes to actually designing the game. I'm sure they all love Deus Ex. But you know what they love more? Not getting fired.

Berr
4th Oct 2013, 02:56
While the people working at Eidos Montreal are just that, people, they are people who work for a company that is owned by a corporation. If Square Enix says jump, they ask how high. The personal passions of the team members themselves mean almost nothing when it comes to actually designing the game. I'm sure they all love Deus Ex. But you know what they love more? Not getting fired.

Yeah true enough that Square Enix get the final say. But I think the dev team might care a bit more than you're saying. Case in point, Stephane D'Astous ex-studio-head actually quit due to disagreement with Square Enix over future game direction. I expect they have some influence over the game before getting to the point of quitting too.

Plus even Square Enix understand that Deus Ex as a franchise is a more hardcore style of game. For all it's simplifications, DXHR was no CoD, and easily at the more complex end of the game market. And when we got a mobile game, it easily set a new record for most complex & deep tablet game.

HERESY
4th Oct 2013, 05:45
While the people working at Eidos Montreal are just that, people, they are people who work for a company that is owned by a corporation. If Square Enix says jump, they ask how high. The personal passions of the team members themselves mean almost nothing when it comes to actually designing the game. I'm sure they all love Deus Ex. But you know what they love more? Not getting fired.

So if you know this is the case why haven't you ceased bashing EM and putting the blame on them?

68_pie
4th Oct 2013, 09:41
The highlighting of objects is optional, it's a fact that this is a feature of the game. They did make responses to the community as well, the videos still exist. No amount of discussion can 'disprove' either of these things.


THC said:


- they made the highlighting of objects optional after it was criticised here

(my emphasis)

"Here" suggested this forum. This forum had nothing to do with highlighting becoming optional, it was only due to the outcry from the wider gaming public.



- they talked lenghts about their decision to have regenerative health/third person cover and stuff in HR

The reason we were given for health regen:

We want you to be able to stay in the action and not have to scrounge for medkits.

The first part of that statement shows a fundamental disregard for how DX worked and the second part is something that no one ever had to do.


The reason we were given for third person cover:

We want you to be able to see more of Adam, so you can see how his body changes as he has more augs installed.

Oh, but wait, they cancelled the idea of having Adam's body change over time so we had TPP because... Hmm.

If the design decisions are based on what they think they need to do sell a certain number of copies , I'd rather they just come out and say it.


Oh you can't really love what you're doing if you're being paid anything to do it, that old chestnut. Do you actually think 100+ professionals will work for free for 4 years because they love a game? Welcome to the real world, where people respect themselves enough to know that even if they love doing something, when they are creating something they deserve to be paid for it.

Not at all what I was saying and I imagine that you probably know that.

What I was saying is that there's probably a bunch of people who worked on the game who didn't give a crap about DX. Development jobs aren't exactly the easiest to come by.


Oh surprise, the game devs don't spend a lot of time trying to engage with DX1 fans who are so entitled they think they can have the final say on how the game should be made, with people who openly declare the devs incompetent and coldly declare a lack of concern for them, who brutally criticize DXHR and clearly have a lower opinion of it than the vast majority of gamers or game critics.

Reminds me of Fallout 3...and then Obsidian showed how to do it properly. Kinda helps that Obsidian are always happy to engage with fans of the original games.


No, they have said they read the forums actively and have in the past even if they don't respond, and since I'm not a jaded crazy person I believe them, I don't need 'evidence' (whatever the f that means, what would they do, send you browser history logs).

Jaded crazy person? Please. Have you not seen the conspiracy theory threads on here? :p

Do you believe everything you are told? "Evidence" would be someone on the dev team coming on here and saying "we hear you". Even if they don't do what some of us would like, it would go a long way compared to 4 years of silence.

I'm sure Rene and Coyote reported some things back to the team.


And here we have abusive, completely non-constructive criticism of not only the game but the entire dev team. Do you even know what constructive criticism is? There is absolutely zero chance that a comment like this is going to result in change. It's insulting, alienating of the devs, and does not provide feedback that is any way useful to them in the development of future DX games.

Misconstruing it entirely.

I would like to see this dev team work on something else because I believe they could make a very good game. I'm sure there are a bunch of super talented people on the team, many of whom do not have anything to do with the direction that DXHR took.

I don't think there's a problem with saying that, IMO, if you gave the team from, say, Troika or Obsidian the same timeframe (4 years!) and budget that EM received then they could make a better DX game.

As for "feedback that is any way useful to them in the development of future DX games", plenty of suggestions were given (very cordially) in the past. I'm bored of repeating them.

_____________________

I guess I think it's strange that I have had more responses personally from EM on Tumblr than there have ever been posts by devs on the official forums.

WildcatPhoenix
4th Oct 2013, 14:13
The reason we were given for third person cover:

We want you to be able to see more of Adam, so you can see how his body changes as he has more augs installed.

Oh, but wait, they cancelled the idea of having Adam's body change over time so we had TPP because... Hmm.

If the design decisions are based on what they think they need to do sell a certain number of copies , I'd rather they just come out and say it.


Ugh, this one above all else drives me nuts. I think it was a great idea to show the consequences of biomechanical augmentation. Yes, you get awesome new abilities, but at the cost of a freakishly-deformed appearance. Plus, it would've been cool to see these systems in action. But the closest thing we got were slow-mo third-person mini-cutscenes of takedowns, Icarus landings, and Typhoon attacks.

Ridiculous. It wouldn't be that hard to simply make third-person optional. Press a single key (or button) to change perspective. Q/E for lean (or LB/RB on consoles). No more of this "sticky" cover cam nonsense.

CyberP
4th Oct 2013, 14:34
Ridiculous. It wouldn't be that hard to simply make third-person optional. Press a single key (or button) to change perspective. Q/E for lean (or LB/RB on consoles). No more of this "sticky" cover cam nonsense.

Not particularly hard, no, but not as you describe, for consoles anyway. LB is sprint, RB is throw grenade. There would need to be option in the menu toggling third & first person hybrid/first person-only (perspective switch as a button is such a waste anyway, an issue I have with the newer Fallout's). In hybrid mode, everything is the same as in DX:HR... in first person-only mode, LT (sticky cover button) becomes lean (hold LB then use the left stick to lean in a direction- any direction on one axis) and there are no perspective switches in this mode except conversations and cutscenes (personally I'd prefer if convos were in first person too).

This is how we can have first person-only with lean as well as the option for standard DX:HR third person hybrid perspectives on consoles, if the devs care for it.

WildcatPhoenix
4th Oct 2013, 14:55
Not particularly hard, no, but not as you describe, for consoles anyway. LB is sprint, RB is throw grenade. There would need to be option in the menu toggling third & first person hybrid/first person-only (perspective switch as a button is such a waste anyway, an issue I have with the newer Fallout's). In hybrid mode, everything is the same as in DX:HR... in first person-only mode, LT (sticky cover button) becomes lean (hold LB then use the left stick to lean in a direction- any direction on one axis) and there are no perspective switches in this mode except conversations and cutscenes (personally I'd prefer if convos were in first person too).

This is how we can have first person-only with lean as well as the option for standard DX:HR third person hybrid perspectives on consoles, if the devs care for it.

That works too, but you do realize that not every single first person game has to use the Halo or COD button mapping, right?

CyberP
4th Oct 2013, 15:06
That works too, but you do realize that not every single first person game has to use the Halo or COD button mapping, right?

How do you mean? Not every game does. DX:HR doesn't, they are more like Rainbow 6: Vegas's controls: Prioritizing third person. Sigh.

WildcatPhoenix
4th Oct 2013, 15:34
I'm saying that LB/RB does not have to correspond to sprint/throw grenade.

Jerion
4th Oct 2013, 15:54
I'm saying that LB/RB does not have to correspond to sprint/throw grenade.

I would just like to take a moment to ponder how this thread got to a point where this post is relevant. :D

CyberP
4th Oct 2013, 16:17
I'm saying that LB/RB does not have to correspond to sprint/throw grenade.

Of course not, but those commands have to be executed somewhere. There are no buttons to spare on the pad, so if they want to have more gameplay functions on a pad such as lean (which I hope they do), they are going to have to optimize some controls: make use of double tap, OnHold, and even contextual actions (the good contextual stuff, such as the standard interact button for interacting with everything and anything when in the crosshairs).

Berr
4th Oct 2013, 23:41
lots of stuff

OK clearly I have been reading malice into your posts than you don't intend, sorry.

But I still think you're way off track with a lot of your comments.

You make some pretty reasonable arguments about why the game should or should not have certain features (in this post and in the past too), but when you say you want to be listened to, you actually mean you want a say in the game design. Because you're saying you want the game devs to engage with the forum members in debate, and if they can't convince you to change your mind, then you want them to change course in the design of the game.

But that's just not how it works, they have the final say. I'm sure they read your protests and reasoning, but they decided to do it another way anyway, for whatever reasons. Which they are in no way obligated to share with you. And they have to ignore some arguments, because no matter what choice they make, some people will have eloquent arguments that they should be doing something different.

Also, when EM devs posted on here recently, they mentioned there had been a SE rule in the past that they weren't allowed to post on here. But that rule has been lifted now, so they can post here. But they haven't posted much, and I don't blame them, I expect it is because of how negative the mood is here. It's time for a clean break, a fresh start of respect and trust in the dev team if you want them to actually engage here.

And that's why I'm so upset by comments like 'need a new dev team'. Ok, you explained how you meant it in a nice way. But it's still not constructive - changing the dev team is just not going to happen, and the current team can't do anything with the advice. And no matter how you intend it, it's still insulting as it's a vote of no confidence in the dev team.

Honestly, if you can't regain some confidence in the team or interest in the games they will be making, you probably should say goodbye to the EM DX games and forums and move on with your life. I mean that in a for-your-own-interests kind of way. There has got to be a million other things more interesting to do than watch a game franchise go in a direction you don't like. And with the critical and commercial success of DXHR, their path is set, no matter how vocal the DX1 forumites are in support of their immersive-sim causes.

HERESY
5th Oct 2013, 00:28
OK clearly I have been reading malice into your posts than you don't intend, sorry.

But I still think you're way off track with a lot of your comments.

You make some pretty reasonable arguments about why the game should or should not have certain features (in this post and in the past too), but when you say you want to be listened to, you actually mean you want a say in the game design. Because you're saying you want the game devs to engage with the forum members in debate, and if they can't convince you to change your mind, then you want them to change course in the design of the game.

But that's just not how it works, they have the final say. I'm sure they read your protests and reasoning, but they decided to do it another way anyway, for whatever reasons. Which they are in no way obligated to share with you. And they have to ignore some arguments, because no matter what choice they make, some people will have eloquent arguments that they should be doing something different.

Also, when EM devs posted on here recently, they mentioned there had been a SE rule in the past that they weren't allowed to post on here. But that rule has been lifted now, so they can post here. But they haven't posted much, and I don't blame them, I expect it is because of how negative the mood is here. It's time for a clean break, a fresh start of respect and trust in the dev team if you want them to actually engage here.

And that's why I'm so upset by comments like 'need a new dev team'. Ok, you explained how you meant it in a nice way. But it's still not constructive - changing the dev team is just not going to happen, and the current team can't do anything with the advice. And no matter how you intend it, it's still insulting as it's a vote of no confidence in the dev team.

Honestly, if you can't regain some confidence in the team or interest in the games they will be making, you probably should say goodbye to the EM DX games and forums and move on with your life. I mean that in a for-your-own-interests kind of way. There has got to be a million other things more interesting to do than watch a game franchise go in a direction you don't like. And with the critical and commercial success of DXHR, their path is set, no matter how vocal the DX1 forumites are in support of their immersive-sim causes.

http://img.pandawhale.com/36243-slow-clap-citizen-kane-orson-w-bJkI.gif

We have a winner!!!!!!!!!

Spades
5th Oct 2013, 01:15
http://img.pandawhale.com/36243-slow-clap-citizen-kane-orson-w-bJkI.gif

We have a winner!!!!!!!!!

All that's well and good but don't tell me that whenever a criticism comes up, accusations of "hating on EM" don't start. This sort of stuff goes both ways.

HERESY
5th Oct 2013, 04:45
I'm sorry but it doesn't go both ways. Take it from me, I had people calling me troll a reporting me because I went against the grain.

Spades
5th Oct 2013, 12:36
I'm sorry but it doesn't go both ways. Take it from me, I had people calling me troll a reporting me because I went against the grain.

Um yeah it does. People criticizing EM: haters/trolls, People loving EM: Fanboys/people who can't handle criticism.

FrankCSIS
5th Oct 2013, 14:26
What's insane in all of this is everyone's blowing in the wind. When someone comes in here or at some public event, with his salesmanship approach, everything he says gets lost into the BS filter. If devs and spokespersons were not so hell bent into selling their game, selling their character, selling their concept, selling their immersion, selling their incredible technology, they would probably be received with less cynicism. While I understand the need to get people excited, there is a definite difference between a sales pitch and a passionate presentation. This approach is suffering the same problems plaguing politics, and the amount of ambient cynicism is roughly the same. Ideally, this industry would have less people who are so easily excitable, and less people who are so cynical. Ideally, people wouldn't respond to cheap salesmanship tactics, and publishers wouldn't be encouraged to use them.

The message is too tightly controlled, especially in venues such as this. You can't treat every interview and every forum as if it were an E3 event. And you cannot win the respect of people by filtering every bit of info through private press access and behind-the-curtain events. The end result of this culture is devs speaking into deaf ears, and fans voicing themselves into a black void. The internet, across the board, is, of all places, the agora where everyone talks, and no one listens. It's filled with people, but there are rarely any true exchanges.

Publishers may have calculated it is commercially more sound to act like this. But cynicism and skepticism, here and in many other internet outlets (including cynical critics and their cult following) is a direct result of this. Much like the long-lasting blackout here and on the Thief forum was directly responsible for the mood it generated.

It's all well and dandy to ask people to behave in a more civil matter. But this place is in great part the result of its environment, a theme this dev team, of all people, should understand!

xaduha2
5th Oct 2013, 15:15
The Eidos Montreal team love Deus Ex
The entire studio staff was recruited on the basis that they would get to work on a new DX game. So, these guys and gals came together specifically for the purpose of making a new DX game. They love DX, otherwise they wouldn't be there.

I'm pretty sure that's not how it works.

Cyberhuman
5th Oct 2013, 16:33
From the recent blog post it seems like EM have big plans for the Deus Ex franchise. DX:HR was amazing and I really hope they can continue to build on what they have started. Deus Ex has such great potential and you have to expect fans to be critical, but we should always remember to give EM credit when they deserve it. A good balance between criticism and praise will benefit everyone in the long run.

Deus Ex Universe is a very exciting idea; and they will actually make a new game!! This is the good news i've been waiting for!

Jerion
5th Oct 2013, 16:48
I'm pretty sure that's not how it works.

Not the entire staff (that would just be silly) but a good chunk of the original DX:HR team did come on board that way.

HERESY
5th Oct 2013, 17:23
Um yeah it does. People criticizing EM: haters/trolls, People loving EM: Fanboys/people who can't handle criticism.

No it doesn't. There was blatant disrespect and criticism that went well beyond the realm of "constructive" In addition, there was NEVER an instance of someone blindly supporting EM.

Spades
5th Oct 2013, 20:16
No it doesn't. There was blatant disrespect and criticism that went well beyond the realm of "constructive" In addition, there was NEVER an instance of someone blindly supporting EM.

I think that if you personally insult EM employees over a game (especially the mods here) you're in the wrong. That's not constructive at all. But saying something like "DE1 was better than HR" shouldn't be seen as inflammatory and vice versa. As to this: "there was NEVER an instance of someone blindly supporting EM." umm how do you know that? Just like there are DE1 fanboys who dislike EM and DE:HR there are also people who dislike the original, love HR and will defend EM to the death. People tend to that if they really like something.

HERESY
6th Oct 2013, 01:59
I think that if you personally insult EM employees over a game (especially the mods here) you're in the wrong. That's not constructive at all. But saying something like "DE1 was better than HR" shouldn't be seen as inflammatory and vice versa. As to this: "there was NEVER an instance of someone blindly supporting EM." umm how do you know that? Just like there are DE1 fanboys who dislike EM and DE:HR there are also people who dislike the original, love HR and will defend EM to the death. People tend to that if they really like something.

I know it because I was here before the game was released and was basically crucified (even got a warning for using the word crucified) for going against the grain. There were no fanboys and people blindly supporting EM here. In several of my classic posts I said EM should consider changing their stance on speaking with the forum, providing info on the forum, etc and I did this before Square came out and said they wanted their people to communicate more. If anyone supported EM they did it in a constructive way. Against EM? **** they were all over the place. All you have to do is check the forums and you'll see this. See, we know there were people here who bashed the game and didn't even play it until recently. This is a fact and can't be disputed. Now you show me fanboys and people who blindly support EM, you can't.

Spades
6th Oct 2013, 03:01
I know it because I was here before the game was released and was basically crucified (even got a warning for using the word crucified) for going against the grain. There were no fanboys and people blindly supporting EM here. In several of my classic posts I said EM should consider changing their stance on speaking with the forum, providing info on the forum, etc and I did this before Square came out and said they wanted their people to communicate more. If anyone supported EM they did it in a constructive way. Against EM? **** they were all over the place. All you have to do is check the forums and you'll see this. See, we know there were people here who bashed the game and didn't even play it until recently. This is a fact and can't be disputed. Now you show me fanboys and people who blindly support EM, you can't.

So wait, you know for a fact that people all here defended/supported EM in a constructive way but when it came to people being negative about EM it was all bashing? How exactly do you know this for a fact?

HERESY
6th Oct 2013, 04:21
No what I know for a fact is that I constantly had to correct people such as yourself, people who don't read or misconstrue what I typed. So let me break this down for you.

Group 1: comprised of those who supported EM but took a constructive route.

Group 2: comprised of those who did not support EM. Some were constructive. Some were downright hostile while others were a combination of the two.

Now how do I know these things? Once again because I was here, before the game was released and was falsely accused by the majority in group 2. I caught the brunt of the attack so I would know if someone here were fanboys for EM.

Berr
6th Oct 2013, 06:10
The Eidos Montreal team love Deus Ex
The entire studio staff was recruited on the basis that they would get to work on a new DX game. So, these guys and gals came together specifically for the purpose of making a new DX game. They love DX, otherwise they wouldn't be there.


I'm pretty sure that's not how it works.

I know it seems like an odd thing to say, but in this case it really is true. The studio was formed with DX3 as their first game, and this information was made public so recruitment could use it as a lure to attract quality employees. And in a city like Montreal with a large and active game dev community, recruitment is often by headhunting people already working at another studio. So although maybe not 100% of the team came on board specifically because of the DX franchise, certainly they knew at the outset and it was a major factor for the many who left another job to join.

Doom972
7th Oct 2013, 04:18
I get a bit riled up about some of the harsher criticism of DXHR and Eidos Montreal around here. It's because I am well aware of the following three points about the Eidos Montreal team, which I'm sharing below. Hopefully this post will enlighten/remind some people here and cause them to consider curbing some of their negativity.

The Eidos Montreal team love Deus Ex
The entire studio staff was recruited on the basis that they would get to work on a new DX game. So, these guys and gals came together specifically for the purpose of making a new DX game. They love DX, otherwise they wouldn't be there.

I'd like to a source on this one. First time I hear about it. From interviews and articles I read and watched when the game was still in early development, I didn't get that impression. I'm not saying that they don't have passion for it, or that they didn't do a good job (they did a great job, for the most part).


The Eidos Montreal team are real people, who read these forums
The team who make DXHR and onwards aren't some faceless 'corporation'. They're real people with real feelings, and here on the official Eidos DXHR forum, what you write is likely to be read by some people on the team. So if you say something cruel like 'for the next DX game to be good it needs a whole new team making it' (and someone has said that here recently), ouch - that's really harsh. Not cool man.

Square Enix are pretty much a faceless corporation, and EM is a part of it. They have to accept criticism like everyone else. If they can't take it, they can always ignore it and then act surprised when people don't buy their next game. Personally, I think that they made few (but noticeable) bad design decisions, and I mostly criticize them for business decisions that happened after the game was released.


The Eidos Montreal team need to eat
This forum naturally tends to attract more serious gamers, so there is understandably a bias here towards harder difficulty and more 'old school' gameplay. And so fair enough people put in requests for the DX games to support this type of thing. But when people suggest the DX games should be exclusively built for that kind of hardcore audience rather than also appealing to a wider audience of mainstream gamers, it's just not realistic given the cost of making this type of game.

Appealing to a wider audience is what killed Deus Ex last time. That's exactly what they tried to do with Deus Ex: Invisible War (Harvey Smith said it himself several times in interviews). The developers would be wise to listen to those complaints. These days, it's much better to make a lower budget game for a smaller audience, then a big-budget game for the widest audience possible. That's why Square Enix are losing money even after millions of sales of Tomb Raider, while Dark Souls is a huge commercial success after selling a fraction of Tomb Raider's copies. If they make a Deus Ex game for Deus Ex players, with a proper budget (who needs CGI cutscenes anyway?), they will be successful financially and earn the good will of the fan base.

pirate1802
7th Oct 2013, 05:10
Silly me, I thought they were made up of robots..

Berr
8th Oct 2013, 12:17
Square Enix are pretty much a faceless corporation, and EM is a part of it. They have to accept criticism like everyone else. If they can't take it, they can always ignore it and then act surprised when people don't buy their next game. Personally, I think that they made few (but noticeable) bad design decisions, and I mostly criticize them for business decisions that happened after the game was released.

From most of what you've said in your post, I don't think my original post was aimed at the kind of criticisms you have leveled - I did specifically call out constructive criticism as helpful after all.

But I'm still disappointed to see you dehumanizing the EM dev team. It's easy to do since you don't ever see them or speak with them, but it's wrong. They are actual people, each with their own personality, strengths and weaknesses, and can only take so much criticism before they become demoralized or turn away [from the forums/fans]. If we want them to even read what's in the forums, let alone engage with us, we have to maintain courtesy in our criticism and remember its the actual people who made the game we are criticizing that are reading it.

I know it's probably pointless to suggest treating the developers of a game with respect on their own forums, but I like EM and DXHR, so if I'm going to take a stand against the Internet Hate Machine, it might as well be here.

Spyhopping
8th Oct 2013, 12:44
Yes, EM are people! Here are some of them being silly.

PR8G02PhN0U

Darthassin
8th Oct 2013, 14:53
I'm sorry but it doesn't go both ways. Take it from me, I had people calling me troll a reporting me because I went against the grain.

You are not the only one.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
8th Oct 2013, 16:01
Yes, EM are people! Here are some of them being silly.

PR8G02PhN0U



I like the silly. Good stuff. :cool:





I know it's probably pointless to suggest treating the developers of a game with respect on their own forums, but I like EM and DXHR, so if I'm going to take a stand against the Internet Hate Machine, it might as well be here.

Not pointless at all, my friend. The ToU applies to everyone. :)

Also, be forewarned, I don't know if this thread will stay open for much longer. Such topics always end up going bad.
Besides, the moderation team already deal with rule-breakers and the hate-machine you speak of. ;)

EDIT: It will get closed shortly. I presume everyone has had their say?

68_pie
8th Oct 2013, 16:28
Whiners.

Whiners whining about whiners. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=115406)

Ilves
8th Oct 2013, 18:29
EDIT: It will get closed shortly. I presume everyone has had their say?[/COLOR]

Lemme just add that recent venomous interactions between board members is much more of a turn off and disrespectful to EM than people being genuinely passionate about the games they love, 's all.


:flowers:

JCpies
8th Oct 2013, 18:41
I want access to the swag room.

Berr
9th Oct 2013, 09:18
Yeah fair enough, I've said pretty much everything I could say on the subject :)

vallux
9th Oct 2013, 10:13
I'm telling you people. We wouldn't have any problems if more people joined the Omar.

JCpies
9th Oct 2013, 12:29
I JUST WANT TO SAY RESPECT TO ANY EIDOS MONTREAL PEEPS WHO READ THIS.

also male hookers for DX4

AlexOfSpades
9th Oct 2013, 13:25
Oh, they're not a faceless corporation? Why arent they here on the forums then? Making "silly" (lol so random xD) videos for PR and youtube views doesnt count. It has been said countless times that they are reading the forums. I'd honestly prefer them not reading the forums at all - if they're really here, then why are they ignoring our requests and feedback, and why are none of them posting at all? In other words, that basically means they have the means to access the community and they do - they just decided to completely ignore the fans on purpose. There are actual developers reading this post right now and frowning... but they're not going to make a free account to log in and prove me wrong. Why? Sounds like a faceless corporation to me.

You'll be a faceless corporation until you stop hiring mods and community managers to represent you. Oh, and also - these "stop not liking Eidos, pls guys" threads are getting so old already. The fans ask for something, we get something completely different. The fans get offended and complain. Then we get threads like these, "oh em gee guise pls stop1!" Aw give me a break mate. As if the community's toxicity wasn't a result of their own actions.


What's insane in all of this is everyone's blowing in the wind. When someone comes in here or at some public event, with his salesmanship approach, everything he says gets lost into the BS filter. If devs and spokespersons were not so hell bent into selling their game, selling their character, selling their concept, selling their immersion, selling their incredible technology, they would probably be received with less cynicism. While I understand the need to get people excited, there is a definite difference between a sales pitch and a passionate presentation. This approach is suffering the same problems plaguing politics, and the amount of ambient cynicism is roughly the same. Ideally, this industry would have less people who are so easily excitable, and less people who are so cynical. Ideally, people wouldn't respond to cheap salesmanship tactics, and publishers wouldn't be encouraged to use them.

The message is too tightly controlled, especially in venues such as this. You can't treat every interview and every forum as if it were an E3 event. And you cannot win the respect of people by filtering every bit of info through private press access and behind-the-curtain events. The end result of this culture is devs speaking into deaf ears, and fans voicing themselves into a black void. The internet, across the board, is, of all places, the agora where everyone talks, and no one listens. It's filled with people, but there are rarely any true exchanges.

Publishers may have calculated it is commercially more sound to act like this. But cynicism and skepticism, here and in many other internet outlets (including cynical critics and their cult following) is a direct result of this. Much like the long-lasting blackout here and on the Thief forum was directly responsible for the mood it generated.

It's all well and dandy to ask people to behave in a more civil matter. But this place is in great part the result of its environment, a theme this dev team, of all people, should understand!

This post deserves more recognition.

WildcatPhoenix
9th Oct 2013, 20:23
You'll be a faceless corporation until you stop hiring mods and community managers to represent you. Oh, and also - these "stop not liking Eidos, pls guys" threads are getting so old already. The fans ask for something, we get something completely different. The fans get offended and complain. Then we get threads like these, "oh em gee guise pls stop1!" Aw give me a break mate. As if the community's toxicity wasn't a result of their own actions.


For real. By definition:

fo·rum

/ˈfôrəm/
noun

noun: forum; plural noun: forums; plural noun: fora
1. a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.



No one here is launching personal attacks or making threats on the EM team. We're not arguing about whether we like JJB's tattoos or lobbing insults at JFD's accent. This isn't a "hate-machine" (good god, what a melodramatic term).

It's a place to exchange ideas about the Deus Ex franchise with other fans and, theoretically, developers. Some of those ideas come in the form of praise, others in the form of criticism. Deal with it.

Berr
9th Oct 2013, 21:15
Oh, they're not a faceless corporation? Why arent they here on the forums then? Making "silly" (lol so random xD) videos for PR and youtube views doesnt count. It has been said countless times that they are reading the forums. I'd honestly prefer them not reading the forums at all - if they're really here, then why are they ignoring our requests and feedback, and why are none of them posting at all? In other words, that basically means they have the means to access the community and they do - they just decided to completely ignore the fans on purpose. There are actual developers reading this post right now and frowning... but they're not going to make a free account to log in and prove me wrong. Why? Sounds like a faceless corporation to me.

You'll be a faceless corporation until you stop hiring mods and community managers to represent you. Oh, and also - these "stop not liking Eidos, pls guys" threads are getting so old already. The fans ask for something, we get something completely different. The fans get offended and complain. Then we get threads like these, "oh em gee guise pls stop1!" Aw give me a break mate. As if the community's toxicity wasn't a result of their own actions.

I'm just gonna switch to dot points, since I've already addressed every point of your post at least once:

The devs do take act on some feedback, but its absurd to think they will act on all or even most of it
Previously, the dev team were forbidden to post here by SE
Now, why would they even want to post here in such a toxic environment? They engage in other avenues becuase the feedback is actually positive there - they manage to connect with their actual fans there
Of course they hire forum managers - keeping forums in order is a big job, and the devs have more important work to do, like making games
If EM consistently give these 'fans' something different to what they want, then why exactly are they still a fan? Were they ever a EM/DXHR fan?
Fans being toxic on the forums here is EM's fault? False. The wonderful thing about being a rational self-aware human, is we have control over our own actions (and forum posts).
You should not be surprised that fans of EM and DXHR are sick of toxic negativity from DX1 fans on a DXHR forum.

HERESY
9th Oct 2013, 21:27
I'm just gonna switch to dot points, since I've already addressed every point of your post at least once:

The devs do take act on some feedback, but its absurd to think they will act on all or even most of it
Previously, the dev team were forbidden to post here by SE
Now, why would they even want to post here in such a toxic environment? They engage in other avenues becuase the feedback is actually positive there - they manage to connect with their actual fans there
Of course they hire forum managers - keeping forums in order is a big job, and the devs have more important work to do, like making games
If EM consistently give these 'fans' something different to what they want, then why exactly are they still a fan? Were they ever a EM/DXHR fan?
Fans being toxic on the forums here is EM's fault? False. The wonderful thing about being a rational self-aware human, is we have control over our own actions (and forum posts).
You should not be surprised that fans of EM and DXHR are sick of toxic negativity from DX1 fans on a DXHR forum.


Berr, admitted, on this very website, to paying what is roughly $3.89 for the full game and ALL DLC via a sale. Now mind you, he still hasn't beaten the game but has been bashing it since before it was released.



I bolded one of the items in your list and that sums it up. This place isn't for DX. It's for DXHR, and the DX people have been turning this place upside down since before the game was released. They have their forum, provided by SE, yet they don't use it. They're very problematic and I think there should be limitations around here when it comes to that. We are dealing with HR, The Fall and the new game. So people need to stop making this place a haven to bash EM and a place of idol worship. We're no longer dealing with relics, the IP has gone in a new direction, people need to accept it and/or move on.

Berr
9th Oct 2013, 21:59
Some of those ideas come in the form of praise, others in the form of criticism. Deal with it.

Eidos Montreal, "fixing" what isn't broken since 2007.

You do realise every single post you make carries an insult for EM, care of your signature? This is the exact kind of pointless, non-constructive criticism that I'm suggesting we'd be better off without.


I bolded one of the items in your list and that sums it up. This place isn't for DX. It's for DXHR, and the DX people have been turning this place upside down since before the game was released. They have their forum, provided by SE, yet they don't use it. They're very problematic and I think there should be limitations around here when it comes to that. We are dealing with HR, The Fall and the new game. So people need to stop making this place a haven to bash EM and a place of idol worship. We're no longer dealing with relics, the IP has gone in a new direction, people need to accept it and/or move on.

Yes, exactly.

It's fair enough the place was full of DX1 people before DXHR was released, since that was all of the Deus Ex fans then, (and included me). But now that DXHR has been out for a while, those who have transitioned to DX/DXHR fans make sense to be here (along with the new DXHR fans), but those who remain only a DX1 fan ... this forum is for DXHR+.


What's insane in all of this is everyone's blowing in the wind. When someone comes in here or at some public event, with his salesmanship approach, everything he says gets lost into the BS filter. If devs and spokespersons were not so hell bent into selling their game, selling their character, selling their concept, selling their immersion, selling their incredible technology, they would probably be received with less cynicism. While I understand the need to get people excited, there is a definite difference between a sales pitch and a passionate presentation. This approach is suffering the same problems plaguing politics, and the amount of ambient cynicism is roughly the same. Ideally, this industry would have less people who are so easily excitable, and less people who are so cynical. Ideally, people wouldn't respond to cheap salesmanship tactics, and publishers wouldn't be encouraged to use them.

The message is too tightly controlled, especially in venues such as this. You can't treat every interview and every forum as if it were an E3 event. And you cannot win the respect of people by filtering every bit of info through private press access and behind-the-curtain events. The end result of this culture is devs speaking into deaf ears, and fans voicing themselves into a black void. The internet, across the board, is, of all places, the agora where everyone talks, and no one listens. It's filled with people, but there are rarely any true exchanges.

Publishers may have calculated it is commercially more sound to act like this. But cynicism and skepticism, here and in many other internet outlets (including cynical critics and their cult following) is a direct result of this. Much like the long-lasting blackout here and on the Thief forum was directly responsible for the mood it generated.

It's all well and dandy to ask people to behave in a more civil matter. But this place is in great part the result of its environment, a theme this dev team, of all people, should understand!

I get what you're saying here, and I agree you are certainly describing the Internet and a lot of the issue quite well.

I do think this forum has a particular issue though, because the 'message' from EM is not actually that tightly controlled all the time - I've seen all sorts of DXHR art snippets and behind the scenes commentary on JJB's forum and various other outlets. (Plus that studio tour video, lol!) But, as others have pointed out, it doesn't happen on this forum. And I am of the belief that is (now) because the forums are so toxically negative that the devs don't want to come here, which I find completely understandable. I wish that would change, I do believe that if this forum was less negative, and especially less hostile to EM, that we would see the devs around here with some frequency.

WildcatPhoenix
9th Oct 2013, 23:03
You do realise every single post you make carries an insult for EM, care of your signature? This is the exact kind of pointless, non-constructive criticism that I'm suggesting we'd be better off without.

Look, Mr. 65 posts, no one died and made you Grand Arbiter of the Internet. And who exactly is this "we" you are referring to? Certainly not Eidos Montreal.

I'm as much a member of this forum as anyone else, and I'll stick around and voice my opinion. EM doesn't need you to defend their feelings, either. We have a right to criticize just as you have a right to praise.


Yes, exactly.

It's fair enough the place was full of DX1 people before DXHR was released, since that was all of the Deus Ex fans then, (and included me). But now that DXHR has been out for a while, those who have transitioned to DX/DXHR fans make sense to be here (along with the new DXHR fans), but those who remain only a DX1 fan ... this forum is for DXHR+.

Nonsense. I paid my $60 to play Human Revolution. Whenever a forum opens up for Deus Ex 4, then I'll most likely migrate over to it. Until that time, I will discuss DX1, DXHR, and anything else pertaining to the franchise right here.

AlexOfSpades
9th Oct 2013, 23:20
I'm just gonna switch to dot points, since I've already addressed every point of your post at least once:

The devs do take act on some feedback, but its absurd to think they will act on all or even most of it

Thief forums have dissected perfectly what made the original Thief games good, and listed numerous possible improvements and additions. They werent not just ignored, but everything we told them not to do, they did. I never expected them to do what we asked for, but i find it ludicrous that they pretend that they listen to the community and are "people with feelings omigosh" and not a "faceless corporation" when they dont even get in contact with us, and when they do its to slap our suggestions and requests in the face.



Previously, the dev team were forbidden to post here by SE

orly? I know that sweetheart. I said that they dont post here exactly to refute their "not a faceless corp" thing. Of course they are, they're forbidden to communicate with their fans. Of course they're a faceless corporation.



Now, why would they even want to post here in such a toxic environment? They engage in other avenues becuase the feedback is actually positive there - they manage to connect with their actual fans there

Other avenues? You're telling me they're posting in other avenues? Care to provide proof? Because when i check Facebook, Youtube comments, /v/ and other gaming forums everyone is pretty much against the new Thief and DX:The Fall unanimously, and no sign of developers there. But i understand your point. When Dugas posted here (not sure if you remember, but he did) that's exactly what i said to him - that i wasnt surprised that they dont post more often.



Of course they hire forum managers - keeping forums in order is a big job

We all know that the forum managers job isnt just to keep order here. They're here to represent Eidos. And why do they need to be represented? Because they're a faceless corporation, which was kind of the argument in my post up there



If EM consistently give these 'fans' something different to what they want, then why exactly are they still a fan? Were they ever a EM/DXHR fan?

I'm pretty sure that right now the Thief fans cannot be called Thief fans anymore. They're now, "old Thief" fans.



Fans being toxic on the forums here is EM's fault? False. The wonderful thing about being a rational self-aware human, is we have control over our own actions (and forum posts).

Actions have re-actions. They act, we re-act. Our reaction depends on their actions.




You should not be surprised that fans of EM and DXHR are sick of toxic negativity from DX1 fans on a DXHR forum.


I'm not. If you never played the first game, i can see why you dont understand our side and see our comments as "negative".

All in all, i understand your points. There's just one thing i have to say: I dont bash or hate Eidos. They're trying their best. I blame Square.

HERESY
10th Oct 2013, 00:09
Go to the DX forum if you want to worship the relic.

Tverdyj
10th Oct 2013, 00:21
I'm just gonna switch to dot points, since I've already addressed every point of your post at least once:

The devs do take act on some feedback, but its absurd to think they will act on all or even most of it
Previously, the dev team were forbidden to post here by SE
Now, why would they even want to post here in such a toxic environment? They engage in other avenues becuase the feedback is actually positive there - they manage to connect with their actual fans there
Of course they hire forum managers - keeping forums in order is a big job, and the devs have more important work to do, like making games
If EM consistently give these 'fans' something different to what they want, then why exactly are they still a fan? Were they ever a EM/DXHR fan?
Fans being toxic on the forums here is EM's fault? False. The wonderful thing about being a rational self-aware human, is we have control over our own actions (and forum posts).
You should not be surprised that fans of EM and DXHR are sick of toxic negativity from DX1 fans on a DXHR forum.


sigh....

The ONLY time we've seen EM react to "feedback" during development of HR was wrt highlight-gate. That was because they posted first promo videos and the entirety of the Internet-youtube, IGN, Kotaku, Gametrailers,etc--virtually exploded with the message "YOUR ALWAYS ON HIGHLIGHTING IS TERRIBLE". there was no "debate"--at first Dugas (or was it Anfossi?) said something about "augmented reality", but after about a week of constant negativity EVERYWHERE ON THE INTERNET, EM retracted the "always on" (note that they did this on Youtube, NOT their official forum). Aside from that, there were bits and pieces of news closer to release--all of them arriving via Twitter, none of them being announced ON THE OFFICIAL FORUM, other than being re-posts from somewhere else.

Yes, devs were forbidden to post. Great, we blame Square Enix. If you were arund here long enough you'd know that majority of complaints here are generally at publishers and the way the industry's been (because of publishers). Mind you, I've been on this forum long before SE bought Eidos, and the situation wasn't much better then....

Because posting to engage the people that care about the franchise is a great way of showing goodwill? you know, marketing yourself as a developer that cares about fans, and not just about the shareholder's next quaterly report? Other devs do this. When devs don't, people lump them together with the publisher, who IS a faceless corporation (and may or may not deserve the moniker "evil". usually depends on how draconian their DRM is)

it's hard to be a "fan" of a developer that hasn't produced anything yet. I certainly was NOT a "fan" of the fact that the man in charge of re-creating DX was the man who adopted Ghost Recon for "mainstream" by introducing chesthighwallitis in place of a cover system. many people here gave EM the benefit of a doubt, and some ended up satisfied with HR. That being said, untill HR hit retail, majority of people who were "fans" of it were, by definition, fans of the DX franchise.

if by "toxic" you mean "resentful and somewhat dissapointed", then yes, it would be the fault of EM. in particular whomever's in charge of their marketing/PR/customer relations. Is this mitigated by the fact that said people are probably beholden to their corporate Squeeenix overlords? Somewhat. Which is, you know, the reason why about 90% of the "vitriol" supposedly directed at EM is (or at least should be) targeted directly at Squeeenix.

HERESY
10th Oct 2013, 00:31
Incredible. The wilfull endorsement of hatred and vile before the game was released. And the blaming of mods? Incredible.

Tverdyj
10th Oct 2013, 01:01
Incredible. The wilfull endorsement of hatred and vile before the game was released. And the blaming of mods? Incredible.

As ever you are quick to exaggerate

prior to the game's release there was asceticism--which is pretty natural for a developer team that has not released a single title yet. There was no "hatred". no matter how much you may want to believe otherwise. Though there was some dread--because EM's marketing strategy was eerily similar to that used by IW--and that game buried DX for many years.

If you are referring to the highlight-gate--well, welcome to the Internet. it's not a rational place. and those highlights were goddamn annoying (especially ladders)

Spades
10th Oct 2013, 03:24
Yes, exactly.

It's fair enough the place was full of DX1 people before DXHR was released, since that was all of the Deus Ex fans then, (and included me). But now that DXHR has been out for a while, those who have transitioned to DX/DXHR fans make sense to be here (along with the new DXHR fans),[I] but those who remain only a DX1 fan ... this forum is for DXHR+.

Really? Please tell me how you can differentiate between DX1 only types and HR+ types?

Doom972
10th Oct 2013, 04:07
From most of what you've said in your post, I don't think my original post was aimed at the kind of criticisms you have leveled - I did specifically call out constructive criticism as helpful after all.

But I'm still disappointed to see you dehumanizing the EM dev team. It's easy to do since you don't ever see them or speak with them, but it's wrong. They are actual people, each with their own personality, strengths and weaknesses, and can only take so much criticism before they become demoralized or turn away [from the forums/fans]. If we want them to even read what's in the forums, let alone engage with us, we have to maintain courtesy in our criticism and remember its the actual people who made the game we are criticizing that are reading it.

I know it's probably pointless to suggest treating the developers of a game with respect on their own forums, but I like EM and DXHR, so if I'm going to take a stand against the Internet Hate Machine, it might as well be here.

That's true about every person on this planet (probably), not just the EM devs.
I don't know them personally and they're not my friends. I never blame any one of them directly and I never make any personal statements about any one of them. I don't see how not treating everyone like a friend/relative counts as dehumanizing.

Berr
10th Oct 2013, 07:38
Really? Please tell me how you can differentiate between DX1 only types and HR+ types?

Haha of all the things to in my post to call out!

It's dead easy to tell them apart: a good number of the DX1 only fans will happily self-identify (they do so on the forums plenty often). As to the rest of the DX1 only fans ... just look for forum members who've never had a kind word to say about DXHR but plenty of complaints and you've found them - after all, fans usually have at least one thing they liked about something to be a fan of it!

JCpies
10th Oct 2013, 10:37
Fans being toxic on the forums here is EM's fault? False. The wonderful thing about being a rational self-aware human, is we have control over our own actions (and forum posts).
[/LIST]

Free will doesn't exist

Cyberhuman
10th Oct 2013, 12:22
Free will doesn't exist

We might have free will, but we are also limited carbon based life-forms; so when we're talking about free will, it is simply based on our own experience of being in this world. You're probably right, and if a super advanced alien species observed us, they would be able to see what we cannot; namely that we - as humans - are very restricted and limited in our choices and that the concept of free will is only an illusion held by primitive species.

If you can't choose what the next thought in your head will be, then you will already begin to question how free you really are; and we all know that you can't think of something before you think it.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
10th Oct 2013, 13:07
I'm sorry guys 'n' gals, but this thread is now closed.
Some of the content violates the ToU. These posts will be deleted.
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